#588: LIV Golf: Bankrupted, but not dead yet

0:00What's up, justters? Welcome or welcome back to another episode of The Justive. Today is Thursday, September 10th. We're your co-host. I'm Ellen Hyslop and I'm Seth Roths and there are so many things to get into today. It is after a long weekend and so I feel like we missed a lot of sports over a seven week in when I hopped on slack this morning. So we record on Wednesday evenings. I unfortunately, slush fortunately, inundated our production team about this is what I would love to talk about and this is what I would love to talk about and also did you see this. And so we're going to do our best to get at all of it, but I'm feeling really spicy today and really spicy after the Labor Day weekend for what's happening in the sports world. I don't even think we're going to be able to get to everything in the sense that like we are going to touch upon so much today, but there's there are agenda items. We can't squeeze it. There's so much as happens since we last spoke. There's been so much that's gone on. I would say to sports, Seth, how is your

1:04long weekend? It's good as anyone else can a really bad allergies right now, man? Like, oh my gosh. I think it's a thing. I think with the changing of seasons, there's a lot more wind. It feels like right now more rain coming in stuff floating around. Did you get a lot of rain this week? Were you able to have a good weekend or did it rain? We had a great weekend. It was supposed to be a horrible weekend. It ended up being beautiful. We were able to have a weekend of booping and dooping and you know I love a boop and doop. Of course. It's the best thing. Who does what? Woman doesn't love a boop and doop. A bit of Bob. Who doesn't I? Any of those items. Yeah. Totally. Like tell me on a Saturday that we can go to a cutie small town and boop and doop. I respond to the word coffee like a dog response response the word dog walkie walkie. Coffee. Right. And then with your coffee, you go into stores. Yeah. Then you get a little sweet treats. Yeah. Nothing better. Going in. Um, there's also

2:04nothing better than being right. And what are you? Oh, what are you right about? Oh, right. What are you right about? The title of the app is here's here's the deal. Um, live golf as we know it is going to change. They've officially filed for bankruptcy bringing the four year battle between the Saudi back to league and the PGA tour to an end. And this is kind of because we know that filing for bankruptcy like, especially in the corporate patriarchy capitalism world that we live in doesn't mean that they're gone forever. But we've been covering live golf since it started. I cannot believe, well, I can't believe because I was like, this is such a shit idea. Um, that it is actually filing for bankruptcy and it is actually going to change. And so today we're going to really dive into it. Also give context to anyone that might be new to this story of like, what is live golf? Why did it get started? What is the sports washing associated with it? What's going on next? And why is Ellen so pissed off? And why is this the thing that we're all talking about? Like, I'm properly like, of course,

3:09this was going to happen, but I'm also properly pissed off because it really has changed men's golf as we know it for a really long time in the future too. And it changed it for the last five years, I think, for the worst. Oh, I can't believe it's been that long. I know. Just the whole landscape, like I'm just really annoyed. Um, there is going to be an exeteration, but I don't know. I'm just, I mean, I'm just annoyed at live golf. And so I'm excited to talk about it today because I do have thoughts and I do have feelings that I do feel like we need to share and provide a different perspective on 100%. Yeah, we got to get into what like all of it entails like how the bankruptcy works, like how much the players are owed. Yeah. What's in store? Like what they're planning to do in terms of why it's not gone forever. Like there's so much to talk about. There's so much to talk about. First, I do want to call it an audible because I'm also pissed off about something else. Um, so it's almost like a season. I know. I don't know what's gotten into me. I do have Virgo in my chart. So like it is my season also. Um, anyway, another thing that I'm upset about,

4:16I shouldn't say piss up. Well, whatever I'm pissed off of, um, is the US Open. I love the US Open. It is such a great tournament. One of my favorite tennis tournaments of the year. I love how the celebrities come out. I know that there's a lot of flak that influencers are getting right now. I don't think that the sports influencers deserve that flak, but I digress. But, um, it's a, it's a really fun tournament. And I feel like it's a really incredible bookend to the end of both the men's and the women's tennis seasons. However, one thing that has been exceptionally frustrating from a viewer perspective is that so many of the tournaments matches this year are starting incredibly late at night and ending incredibly early in the morning. And it's just not fun for an at home viewer to have to stay up super late at night or to watch it really early in the morning. Feel like you can only watch the highlights. The matches are starting so late, Seth, that the only people who be watching them are on the other side of the world or are

5:21up in the middle of the night, partying on a red eye or their new moms and they're up in the middle of the night anyway. And they're like, you know, why not toss on some US Open while I'm with my baby trying to get them back to sleep? Or their celebrities who have their schedules, because I woke up at 6am and opened my Instagram immediately as one does and saw notification. Kevin Hart stays at US Open until past 1am and I go, what's going on? Why is he there till past 1am? lid really. So what we're referring to is on Tuesday night slash like really the wee hours of Wednesday morning, Ben Shelton defeated Carlos Alcarez. And that's huge. Like that's such a big deal, especially because Carlos Alcarez defending champ one of the best players in the world right now. And Ben Shelton like has not been playing that great lately. He's been dropping out of tournaments pretty early. So the fact that he beat Alcarez is incredible. It was also a five set match. And I think Steph watching back the highlights probably the best match of the tournament. So yeah, he won.

6:21And his girlfriend Trady Rodman, who's obviously an athlete and a star on her own right at the end. What did they do? The hand signals. Was it called me? Call it was like a call like whatever. But okay, here's the thing though, the match didn't start until 11.05 and it ended at 333. So really fun, maybe for people that are actually at Arthur Ash and that are actually in New York, but like not actually fun for people at home to only be able to watch the highlights. I totally understand that they want to start matches. I think that they're for the night matches. They're looking to only start them at 7pm because they want all of the commuters to be able to come to them. But something's going to give because Venus Williams and her first round match, she didn't start her match until after midnight because there was weather issues. There were long matches. And so I just say I'm like a from a viewer perspective. I'm annoyed at it, but also be from an athlete perspective. What athlete is figuring out how they're training overnight? Doesn't that impact what they're eating, how they're sleeping, how they're preparing. Yeah, yeah. Like I just I just feel like

7:25I don't know. I'm just like I something has to give and it does feel like it was a perfect storm on Tuesday of just like so many matches going the distance. So a few weather issues, a couple of like daytime sessions going long and the transfer, whatever. I don't know. I am still like as a logistics person. That's unacceptable. It's just unacceptable to have the best match of the tournament, basically not viewable for the if you're on if you're living on Eastern time. Obviously if you're on Pacific's like, but even on Pacific, like that ended up midnight. Fast math. I was I was trying to do that as you're talking. But I mean, three hours. They got to figure it out. Like what like the scheduling is it not having every single match in the same place, which is what they're doing, is it controversy? Is it not having the men's matches go to five sets? I know, I know. Like they have to figure it out. Yeah. And I think to the difference that I'm kind of looking at and I haven't been I haven't been to I've been to the US open and I've been to rolling girls before the Olympics.

8:32So the French open obviously haven't been to Wimbledon. Haven't been to my god. Why am I blinking? Australia yet. Thank you. Okay. I haven't been to the Australian open. So but I happen to two of the venues. And what I'll say about Roland Garo's stuff is that there's a lot of smaller tennis courts. And then there's kind of like one main center core area. And then there's two kind of mid core areas where there's still a lot of ability for seating versus at the US open, at least when I went and this was way back in 2018. It was basically the center core, which was Arthur Ash. And then the other stadiums were just like, they almost looked like practice courts and facilities. And so part of me wonders like could they build something else there where they would be able to have a tournament set up almost like Roland Garo's where not everything has to be at center core, even if it is a quarter final, could they have more running at the same time. Then part

9:37of me is like, well, then obviously the women are going to get pushed to the side and that's annoying. But I do think that more people could go more people would be able to watch. And you could just kind of I don't know, be a little bit more dynamic and back and forth on the timing. Yeah, I think that that makes a lot of sense. Surely they can build something else like it's I think you're right. It's Queens. Yeah. The US open head of communications. They said that they acknowledge they must evaluate all scheduling options in the future. So hopefully they change something. And again, I was back in 2018. So maybe the stadium has changed a little bit. And there's like more of an opportunity to watch. But I don't know, I'm annoyed. I wanted to watch that match. Yeah, I mean, all four were scheduled at Arthur Ash stadium. I'm to say. So that's that. Enough about tennis. It's time to talk about live golf. It's time to get Ellen probably more

10:39angry. So we're going to start off with a little background on live golf. Just in case you've been so fortunate enough to not have to hear about it in the past four to five years. And then we're going to talk about them filing for bankruptcy and what's next. So that is the agenda for the one big story. I love how you always start off with the agenda. You're like, we have a three-pronged approach to today. Well, I'm getting ready for my course that I'm taking. I'm going to be writing papers. Take a minute. Can you actually just fill everybody in on the course that you're taking? I'm actually really sad because I'm not writing papers. That was a stretch. I'm taking the history of interior design from 1850 to present. And I'm very excited about it because I work at a university and I get to take night classes for free up to two a semester. And I have taken and dropped two courses so far when things got real around the midterm. So I decided to take something that I'm extremely interested in as a way to hook me back into learning. And so who doesn't want to know about in interior design and what what is Victoria design? And that's more than what you think it is.

11:40I'm just so jazzed. But that's so cool stuff. I cannot wait to see and to hear what you learn. And then also how you apply it because I feel like especially as a new homeowner, there's so many different things that you could do with your space. Because I want to also mix and match from different decades because you don't want to I love MCM as most millennial women do. And can you define MCM? Mid-century modern. Think like car ports like Starbursts. It's a certain color palette, a lot of teak wood. So you don't want to just recreate a catalog from that era or else it's going to look like a time capsule. So I really want to learn more about everything that's going on from into your design perspective. And I just want to learn. You know, I'm not taking advantage of this perk enough for my workplace. And you do love learning. You've always loved school. One thing about you, you've always loved school. I love school. So I said, I should work at a school. Yeah, exactly. No, you're you love school. Oh, I'm so happy for you. If I wonder if the sports business classes

12:41are talking about live because there are some of those. So yeah, I will be taking one of those next year once I've wet my whistle with the design stuff. Yeah, yeah. I think that it would be really interesting to get into some of those. Anywho, let's talk about a live. You want to give the initial background stuff? Oh my gosh. Okay, so live golf launched in June of 2022. It was backed by Saadi. And it really threatened to disrupt the world of men's golf by trying to sign and pull some of the PGA tours biggest names away from PGA and secure them into the live golf stratosphere. So a couple of the names that did end up going were John Rom, Brooks Kupka and Bryson Deschembo, Dustin Johnson. And famously, they tried to get Tiger Woods, but he said no. Like they were offering so much money to these guys to get the to come from PGA to live. And the

13:42number that they offered Tiger was somewhere between 708, 800 million to join. But again, he did turn them down. So that is the these are kind of the figures that they're working with. And at the time, I really did wonder, how is this financially feasible? This is wild. Yeah. And I think that to zoom out even a little bit further, basically what live golf was saying is that the PGA has a stranglehold on men's golf and that it really felt like a monopoly. And when they were starting it with Greg Norman, who's a prior PGA golfer, they were basically saying that there needs to be more competition than just the PGA. And at the time, there were a lot of PGA players who felt like the prize pools were too low that there wasn't enough of an opportunity on the revenue sharing. And so they were like, this feels like a great time to disrupt the game because the players weren't necessarily super happy. I would never compare the WMBA to Unrivaled in any stretch of the imagination.

14:45We know that Unrivaled is a complimentary league, but it's kind of the same idea where Unrivaled was like, we're not necessarily loving every single way that the WMBA is operating right now. Could we come up with a different operating model in a new league? Obviously Unrivaled. Created by women. It is going to be incredibly successful versus live, I think backed by Saudi Arabia and the fund that we'll get into in a minute was very much in this sports washing, like trying to take advantage of stage. And they were just trying to create a competing league. Yeah, yeah, because there was no competition really. Like, no, and like there isn't, like to be fair, like what's what's the competition to the NBA? Nothing MLB nothing. NFL nothing, MLS soccer world, tons of competition. So I think like maybe they were looking at soccer as a comparison. I really don't know, but I think the biggest thing was because they were backed

15:46by Saudi Arabia's public investment fund, yes, they were able to offer Tiger 700 to 800 million dollars to join stuff, but the like average to join was upwards of a hundred million dollars. And so you had all of these massive names in the PGA who already are grand slam champions, who already make a ton of money say, okay, yes, I'm going to go over to live. And it really started with Phil Mikkelsen, who's a big name or who was a big name in golf. And then when he said, I'm going over here, then a bunch of these other players, like you mentioned, Rom, Cup, Cup, Dechambeau, DJ, etc., all kind of followed him. And that just created this like massive divide between PGA players who stayed because they were like, this is absolutely ridiculous. And then those who left and from a fan perspective, they immediately became evil. Like immediately, they were not your favorite athletes anymore. It was everybody like the Rory McElroy's, like the Scotty Shefflers, like the Matt Fitzpatrick's who actually stated with the PGA that we really

16:50liked them. And okay, sorry, last thing at the same time, did you end up watching Full Swing? No. Steph, you got to watch Full Swing because the, I think it's the first season or the second season, like this shit is going down at the same time that they're filming Full Swing. And so you're getting all of these newer fans into golf and understanding golf in the same way. It's basically golf striped to survive, right? Like you're seeing this happen in real time. And it's just so wild because you're seeing DJ who's a son-in-law of Wayne fucking Gretzky sitting on his massive property. And they're like, I'm setting up generational wealth for my family. And we're like, honey, you have it. You have it. You've got it. Honey, you've got it. And so it was just like, it was really, really hard as this was all going down to see just also the golf world being so split and like so divisive. But I think all together, so many people stayed with and stand the PGA over, live.

17:54And live was different to in terms of structure. Like the tournaments themselves were different from the PGA. The tournaments included 54 whole matches and team competitions. And unlike the PGA tour events, they just never got really popular. Like they just never took off. Which was weird. They were paying players nine figure salaries. They were trying something new when it came to the format. And just never got off. And that part's so interesting stuff because I was like, oh, this is kind of fun. Teen golf, they're playing music, they're doing all that sort of stuff. The rider cup, we know has done so well in the world of men's golf soul home cup as soon everyone on the women's side. But that I thought would maybe work, but it just didn't. Like it just kind of showed people that like, no, they like what they like. Have you watched what's the Adam Sandler movie about golf? Happy Gilmore. Have you watched Second Happy Gilmore yet? No, I haven't. But I know you have. Okay. Yeah. So that one feels like a spoof on live golf. Yes. Yes. Okay. That's what I've heard. And so like that didn't take off. And then the PGA to their credit was like, okay, we'll

18:57increase the prize money. We'll find a way to keep players motivated. And at the same time, they were like, all right, we are suspending all of these live players. They are not allowed back to the PGA. And they also kind of rode on the coattails of someone in my opinion, like Roy McElroy, who was just so outspoken, being like, you guys are all bozos. Like we're not friends. I don't want to know you at all. And they just always hated live. Like it was just this immediate contention, which was kind of great for the golf game too at the same time because we need, I love a rivalry. And I think it does so much for the sport that it just grew it even more. Insert Roy McElroy into me and girls meme, you can't say for this. You can't say for this. Um, but then the weird part wasn't 2023. And don't you remember covering this stuff of 2023? It was such a blip, such a blip. It was so weird. All of a sudden. So like there's this massive hatred between the players and the organizations like PGA is saying stuff. And then all of a sudden, they're like, oh, actually, there's a proposed merger between live and PGA. And it had to go

20:00through the US Senate and Justice Department to ensure that like basically the Saudi regime didn't want to have buying influence over the tour, like all this sort of stuff. It ultimately never went through. And so that was just kind of a side blip. But it was very weird at that time because it really felt like the PGA just threw out Rory and put his neck on the line. And then all of a sudden, they were like, oh, but you know what? We might actually partner with them. And they might actually all end up getting to play with us. Anyway, it was very strange. Yeah, it's really like all of your friends made fun of you for watching Taylor Swift and they show up at the air sewer and you're not there. That's the perfect comparison. Yeah, it's exactly what that felt like. I was like, wait, guys, what are you doing? No, that's truly the perfect comparison. So anyway, I kind of gave a lot of background and like went off a little bit there, but I felt like that was necessary. No, I'm not really feeling crampsy. That sets up the anger. I think that really helps paint a picture in terms of where we're at. So thank you for your help. And to be so honest, I was like, this is not going to work. Like this is not going to work, especially because it'd be like, oh,

21:04the NFL has competition. The NFL, do you remember the XFL? No, because it sucks. Like it's sucked. I don't remember because it sucked it. And I remember at the time thinking, imagine the same amount of money was thrown at a woman's league. Because we all know this silly little thing isn't going to last like the most. Totally. It was so it was so stupid. And so like that, that's why I was like, this is not going to work. Anyway, let's talk about the bankruptcy. Yeah, obviously, there were sides. There were sides in January of this year in 2026. Players like Brooks Kekka, who've fled to live had to basically, you know, come, come, come, come, many punishments come back to the PGA. So to come back to the PGA, he had to pay a $5 million charitable donation. He has no access to PGA tour equity for five years, no FedEx, no FedEx cup bonus money for all of 2026 and is banned from signature events until he place his way back into the PGA tour. So that's I think that's being nice. That's being nice. So players who

22:05are trying to come back are facing these punishments. So that is happening in January and then in April, the PIS. So that's the Saudi fund announced that it was no longer funding live golf. So certainly, things are starting to happen in 2026. Yeah. And I'll say like in January, I don't think that I clocked that maybe Brooks Kekka was like, Oh, I'm not seeing my check coming in or something like that. I just thought that Brooks was like, I'm not playing with the best golfers in the world anymore. This isn't working for me. I want to come back to the PGA, but I think in April when it was like, Oh, there's no longer money there. Then in August, live canceled its team championship and then on Tuesday, the Fowl for bankruptcy. Yeah. The league reportedly has between 100 million to 500 million and assets, but owes between 500 million and 1 billion in liabilities, including past due payments to players who are now, of course, free to leave. But there are some players who are owed 7.5 million, 5.5 million, 1.7 million, like millions of dollars. Which apparently they needed.

23:15I'm like, you all actually don't need any of that money. You are all totally fine. And also, yeah, you owe John Robb 7.5 million, but you signed him to a ludicrous like 50 million plus dollar contract. Like I think he's okay. So I just, I'm like, that's fine. But this isn't like unionized back pay for like social workers. Totally. I don't feel in any particular way. I think you guys are all right. You did this to yourselves. But the choice to declare bankruptcy instead of liquidation is definitely notable here because it does signal potential transition to a new business model because that's what bankruptcy normally is, right? Like especially in the corporate world. It's like, okay, help us figure this out. But then we're going to roll up something else. And that's what Liv is doing. So I feel like we need to talk about what's next. The CEO, Scott O'Neill said that the tour plans to begin its new era in early 2027. And that will include a league that is primarily owned by the players instead of the PIF. The enter on my goals comparison.

24:19Right? That's what I was kind of getting. Like that you were foreshadowing with that. Yeah. foreshadowing with that one. But I, if I was a player, I'd be like, wait, wait, wait, nobody likes this format. Nobody likes me right now. The number, the two and numbers are horrible. The majority of these TV networks too that I should have mentioned, like they won't even touch Liv because there was such backlash when they initially came out that they're like, we're not going to put Liv on our channel. Like none of our audience is going to like us for that. So what they are saying though is that this new system could be built around the fans and innovative player first ownership model and part of the global golf ecosystem, which I'm like, it was built around fans. It was innovative. It was part of the global golf system that only differences this player first ownership model. But I'm like, this didn't fail because it was backed by Saudi Arabia. This like failed because there was already a great product. Like there was already the PGA. You don't,

25:21there doesn't need to be something else, you know. Reportedly this Liv 2.0 or whatever it's going to be called is going to include events around the world, including in the US and Mexico. And the field will include 75 golfers, but does not require current Liv golfers to sign back on. So there's no requirement from them to come back or to stay. What's been interesting is that these Liv golfers are now like kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. John Rom was non-committal earlier this week about whether or not he'll sign with Liv again. He said, quote, there's a lot of things that could happen. And it's one of those things where time's going to tell end quote are a very own Shakespeare. What's interesting is like outside of Brooks, Capca, everybody else decided to stay with Liv for the year, right? Like they could have come back to PGA, but they didn't. Now I'm like, I would probably if I was a Liv golf player, I'd be coming back with my tail between my legs saying, I'm so sorry. What is the fine?

26:22Let me back into this. Unless they want to turn their, I don't know, 7.5 million. Maybe they don't get that money in it turns into equity. I'm really not sure. But to me Liv 2.0 is just going to be even more of a sinking ship. Do you think that men are capable of admitting they were wrong? No. It's time for something new. It's time for a brand new segment that you'll hear every Thursday during the NFL season. And we're calling it the gist forecast. A, exactly what it sounds like. We're going to be forecasting the football climate every week, every Thursday. You guys are probably wondering like how has Ann Ellen talked about the NFL yet? Hello, we're talking about it. I was just, you know, when you're anger, just like overrides your excitement, that was what today was. And so the NFL season kicks off on tonight. So we're not talking about Wednesday's game,

27:25which is between the Seattle Seahawks and New England Patriots. It's a Super Bowl 60 rematch. But we want to talk about the football climate. And I think it's only week one, but I'm feeling a high pressure weather system building in LA. They have one of the best teams. They made it to the NSC championship last year. But the reason why I'm feeling like there's a high weather system in LA stuff with the Rams is famously, there's also the charges in LA. So it's an important distinction. They traded for reigning defensive player of the year, Miles Garrett. And this is a big deal, not only because he's dating Olympic snowboarder Chloe Kim, gold medalist Olympic snowboarder, Chloe Kim, I should say. But he set the single season sack record last year. He has been training with an Australian rugby coach on how to hit harder. And I'm like, I don't know how Miles Garrett could actually hit harder. And then signing Miles Garrett convinced three time defensive

28:26player of the year, Aaron Donald to come out of retirement. And this guy's like, he's a big fucking deal. He retired in 2023 as one of the best defensive players in NFL history. He's an eight time first team all pro. He signed a one year, $20 million deal. I watched the hard knock season. That was featuring the LA Rams and was like, holy shit. Like this guy's no joke. The way in which the quarterbacks who are playing the LA Rams are going to be shaking in their cleats. When they line up against Miles Garrett and Aaron Donald, I cannot believe. I cannot believe. I'd be quaking. When you said Aaron Donald is a big deal, I thought you're going to say is a big dude. Both. Both. Literally both. So it's really interesting about this forecast too. It's a high pressure weather system and it's building in LA. But notably, their season opener is actually in Australia. So the NFL is going down under. Donald is not going to go down under. But I think

29:33that it's pretty fun that they're playing in Australia. It's the longest road trip in NFL history. Is it true? If there's any Australians in the chat hit me up. Is it true that Australians talk about going to Canada? It's like a fun thing. I saw this one tick talk of these three guys roasting their friend saying like that one dude who went to Canada because he'll be like, oh, this beer isn't as good as when I was in Canada. And they're like, we know you went to Canada, give it a rest. And I didn't know if it was like a parody or if we're actually beloved like that. That's so sick. Let me know. I love that. That's so fun. So that's the weather forecast. The last thing with respect to this forecast, we have launched our NFL pickups are weekly NFL pickups. We're inviting you to play so many women do not get invited to be part of fantasy leagues or office pools or anything like that. And it is our time to shine. So I would very much recommend that you go to the just sports.com go play our pickups game. It will be so much fun. And it's fast and easy, right? Yeah. Fast easy. It's the best. Oh my gosh. Fantastic.

30:36Well, that is the the first of our the just forecast segment and Tuesdays. I mean, no, Thursdays. Very excited. But if you want to be featured on Tuesdays podcast, if you want to be in our personal training session, hit us up. You can email us. Pod at the just sports.com. You can DM Ellen on Instagram at Ellen, the just where you can DM me at 7 U.R.O.S on Instagram as well. And we would love to hear from you. Yes, I went that that marks the end of today's episode. Thank you all so much for tuning in and listening to me then. We'll be back in your feed with new podcasts on Tuesday in the meantime. If you enjoyed this episode, love you. Good rate, review, subscribe, and send in that personal training session. This episode was edited by Savannah held and produced by Lisa Minnetillo and Alessandro Puchio. Again, I'm Ellen Hyslop. And I'm Safratz and we'll see you so soon.