48 Hours - Caged Kids

0:00You made a choice and that choice was to be thugs. They were children all sentenced to hard time. Lisa, a promising athlete. Give me all your money right now, right now. She's the girl behind the mask. No, it wasn't scary. She's serving seven years. It was his head. Sean was 16 when he killed his friend's father. She was being abused. I was a kid with braces on his teeth. I thought he was helping a friend in trouble. He got eight to 24. I was introduced to a world I had no idea existed. Also, we're talking about a 17-year-old girl. Will Rebecca go free? You've been here for how many years? Eight years. So as far as you're concerned, the state then will be setting free a cold-blooded murderer. Kids tried and convicted as adults.

1:02Should we throw away the key? What happened to pinate your road shoot somebody? You put them in prison for the rest of their life? 48 hours investigating. Caged kids. I'd like to leave around between 7 and 7 30 to get there when visiting hours began around 9. Missy Phillips is on her way to visit her son Josh in the Marion Correctional Facility in Lowell, Florida. I mean, I love my son. I just want to support him and I miss him. It's a trip Missy has taken once a week, every week, for the last five years. And then he's always sad when I leave him there. It's hard because it's going to be another week. I love my mom. She's, uh, she's really strong.

2:0620-year-old Josh Phillips has spent a quarter of his life behind bars. I'm glad that she stayed with me now. And will remain in prison until the day he dies. When you look into his eyes, when you see his face today, what do you see? I see my son. I see a little boy that I saw grow up. Josh is a monster in my mind because normal people don't kill their playmates. Steve and Sheila Clifton's daughter, Maddie, was just eight years old when she vanished from her Jacksonville, Florida neighborhood in November, 1998. Maddie, please come home. Mom and daddy and Jeff here are ready for you to come on home. I'm going in the woods if anybody wants to go with me. 48 hours was there as thousands of people searched for Maddie. Maddie is going to come home. She woke home.

3:07Maddie! There was no night and day. It was just this nightmare. It was horrible. It took seven days for Steve and Sheila Clifton to learn what happened to their daughter. We found Maddie Kifton this morning. She was dead. Maddie Clifton had been right across the street the whole time. Her body stuffed under 14-year-old Josh Phillips water bed. It's a brutal, senseless, larder. Josh told police that while playing, he accidentally hit Maddie with a baseball. He told the police that he carried her in the house and took her to his room and put her on the floor. This is Josh's dad, Steve Phillips, in 1998. And that she started to make noises. And he got scared even more.

4:08Scared because Josh was afraid of getting in trouble. In a panic, Josh hit Maddie with a baseball bat and stabbed her to stop her screaming. The case of the state of Florida versus Joshua Earl Patrick Phillips. Josh, who had no history of violence, was charged as an adult with murder. We the jury find the defendant guilty of murder in the first degree. Mr. Phillips in the custody, please. In the early 1990s, most states, including Florida, changed their laws, making it easier to try juveniles as adults, putting the emphasis on punishment rather than rehabilitation. It was in this climate in 1999 that Josh Phillips was sentenced to life without parole. He was convicted justly.

5:0848 hours interviewed the Clifton's a week after Josh was convicted. Does Josh deserve to spend the rest of his life in prison? I believe so. I don't know what should happen, but I'd like to get out. This was 15-year-old Josh before he was transferred to state prison. Why did this happen? I don't know. I'm not. I don't think I have the answer. And after five years in prison, I really don't know. Not really. Josh still doesn't have the answer. Were you angry? Were you an angry young man at 14? I had anger in me, I guess. And then maybe I should get some kind of counseling or something to find out was wrong with me. But since he's been incarcerated, Josh hasn't had any counseling to understand why he killed Maddie.

6:10I'm just sitting here, you know. I'm doing this sitting here, eating, doing stuff, I work, and that's all I do every day, and this would be like that pretty much till I die. Maybe one day he's going to realize the severity of how many people he affected are doing what he did. Sheila Clifton's life has been dramatically changed since her daughter Maddie was murdered. After 25 years of marriage, Sheila and Steve Clifton are now divorced. My husband, he was so struck in the grief. We just went in totally different directions. Watching her grow up, the dreams and the hopes that we had are gone. And that's a hard thing for mom to accept. What do you think about when you think of Maddie? I think about this little girl that didn't deserve to die. And I try to think what the hell is going through my head, you know.

7:14I screwed up my life, I screwed up her. She's not going to have a chance to do anything. It's all because of me. I believe in redemption. I believe that there needs to be a second chance. Florida State Senator Stephen Geller may hold the key to Josh Phillips' future. We have to start recognizing the children are not just short adults. What happens if an eight-year-old shoots somebody? Do you put them in prison for the rest of their life? Under current Florida law, you can. I'm sorry, I think that's wrong. If we passed today's bill, we'll be able to do something about that. He has introduced a bill that would make first time violent juvenile offenders serving life sentences, eligible for parole after eight years. Charles Manson gets the opportunity to have parole. Why should this 14-year-old at the time of the act? Why should they not have the opportunity for parole? For now though, prison, not parole, is Josh's reality. It was just lately that the life sentence is just hitting me kind of.

8:16Every day you see a big line in a medical, every day for pills and stuff. You see a bunch of guys walkers and stuff and it looks like that might be me another 50 years. Since Josh has been away, his father Steve died in a car accident. Josh loved his dad and Steve loved Josh, so I had to stay strong for Josh. I was like, I got mom now, but you know, she's all gone left. But with all that has happened, Josh has done well in prison. Despite living in the general adult population since he was 15, he says he was never sexually assaulted. No, I'm never really having any physical problems in prison. Josh has gone on to receive his high school diploma and now works as a law clerk advising fellow inmates. He wants to do well. He wants to make something of himself. What do you believe should happen to Josh? I believe he should have a chance to get out someday. And surprisingly today, I don't hate him. I hate what he did.

9:16Even Maddie's mother has had a change of heart. Do you think that Josh should ever get a second chance at life? Maybe one day, being put away in prison for life is a can of magic. I don't think any child should have to suffer that. I don't think it's appropriate to lock him up and throw away the key. And Senator Gillard may have an unexpected ally. Just last week, Florida's conservative governor, Jeb Bush, said he is seriously considering supporting Gillard's bill. But if the bill passes, it may affect only future cases. Meaning Josh's life sentence would remain. His only hope would be a grant of clemency. What would you do if you had a second chance? If I got out, I'd owe the world a lot. Because it gave me a second chance. And I'd try to do whatever I could to repay him. And I don't know what a service he has or not, but I know I want the chance.

10:28Sean thought he was helping a friend in trouble. I really didn't think of the repercussions. He's had 16 years to think about it. I mean, I made a huge mistake. I was introduced to a world I had no idea existed. Still to come. No, look at the f***ing truck right now! When we don't start to deal effectively with our situations, we're never going to be able to get past them. As much as you can try to do. I'm just a good listener, and you can't underestimate the power of a good listener. That's not good enough. Sometimes in this group, listening is all Sean Pika can do. I kind of can relate because I just came home myself. They are men recently released from prison. How long are you away from? Three years. Despite the shirt and tie and a master's degree, Sean can relate to their struggles. And a lot of times, there's not too many doors open for us.

11:28That's because Sean Pika, the counselor, was once Sean Pika, the convent. It's hard to swallow that through to my own efforts, my own hand, that I lost 16 years of my life. Sean, now 35, spent half of his life in maximum security prison. When I was 16 years old, I shot and killed my friend's father. It was in 1986 here in Seldon Long Island, where Sean Pika, a high school junior, sat next to a girl named Cheryl Pearson in home room. Although they were just casual friends, Cheryl confided in Sean that her father was physically abusing her. Desperate to stop the abuse, Cheryl told Sean she would pay him to kill her father. I was a very confused, mixed up kid.

12:31I really didn't think of the repercussions. Sean, who had witnessed domestic violence in his own home, agreed to help Cheryl. We determined that as two 16-year-olds, this was the only way that we were going to be able to deal with this situation. What was your relationship like with Cheryl Pearson? Did you have a crush on her? I think maybe a little crush, but I don't think that's what motivated her. I think that's what motivated me if I think I was just more or less, I thought I was helping a friend. It was February 5, 1986. Before dawn, Sean hid behind some bushes in front of the Pearson home, a loaded 22 caliber rifle at his side. How did I get here? Am I about to really take somebody's life? It was pretty dark. And when the father came out in the morning for work, I walked out of the shrubbery and I shot and killed him.

13:33It was wrong, and I knew it was wrong. I knew it was wrong then, but I still believed I was doing it for the right reason. Sean and Cheryl were arrested a week later, and the teenagers quickly made headlines. The world was hit man, and the fact was I was a 16-year-old kid with braces on his teeth. It wasn't even shaving yet that thought he was helping a friend in trouble. Although they both pled guilty to manslaughter, their sentences were very different. The facts, the facts, the children of anything you say about the soon-starts, when it was determined that Cheryl's father had also sexually abused her, the judge showed mercy, releasing Cheryl after just three and a half months in county jail.

14:37But for Sean, it was just the beginning. I'd never been arrested before. I was introduced to a world I had no idea existed. Setence to eight to twenty-four years. Sean was to spend the next sixteen in state prison. I spent a lot of years just getting through day to day. I did what a lot of guys do. I used the only thing that's available to numb myself to escape the situation, and you get high. Drugs and a bad attitude landed Sean in solitary confinement twice. Really, it was those days in solitary where I just said, you know what, I can't live like this. Mentally, I can't take it. And I started to make some changes at that point. Those changes meant getting an education in prison, where surprisingly, Sean got a lot of support from his fellow inmates.

15:39All the men that were my mentors and were just there for me for so many years, always a shoulder to lean on. No matter what the situation was, these guys were always there for me, always had my back. While serving his time, Sean received his high school diploma, a bachelor's degree, and a master's degree. The only thing that I carried out those gates with me was that education. And I'll tell you, when I went to those gates to be released after sixteen years, I had never been so scared in my life. Sean was enrolled from Sengseng Correctional Facility in December 2002. These past few months, just experiencing so many things for the first time. I mean, things that everyone around me takes for granted. I mean, I made a mistake, and I'll be the first to admit it was a huge mistake.

16:42But I still believe I deserve the second chance. Today, Sean is making the most out of that second chance. This is Sean. Not me at all. Do you know? His days are now spent working with tenants in this East Harlem housing project. You looked out for me a few times too. And Sean is still going to school. Now he's working towards a second master's degree in social work. What does your family think about you today? What you're doing? They're proud of you? They got to be. Very proud. Sean's family never gave up on him. But nothing is more important to Sean than his other family, those who have served their time too. We're going to have to start getting into some more of the deeper issues and looking deeper at ourselves. Here at Strive, Sean helps former inmates adjust to life on the outside. The prison system is just filled with so many men like myself that got in trouble young

17:44and spent the next 15 or 20 years in prison and went to school and really do deserve a second chance. And I think that they should get it just like I got it. Lisa was popular, athletic, a kid from the Burbs. She's also... Give me all your f*** money right now. An armed robber. Give me all your f*** money! What are you doing? Go! Now! What got you here? I guess I didn't care. You f***ing hold up, give me all your f*** money right now. No, what the f***? You're all right now! You got all your way, put it in the back! Put it in the back! This dramatic hold-up was caught by a store security camera in Texas.

18:44Put it all in! It turned out to be the first in a series of five convenience store robberies, pulled off by a well organized gang. Come on, hurry it up! Lisa's kept telling me you got two seconds left. We're gonna shoot you. And I couldn't get the cash right just to open. I was hitting all the buttons. Nothing was working. They scared me so bad. And when you feel like you're gonna die, that's not a good feeling. The hold-ups didn't make much news until the gang members were finally caught and their identities revealed. Police say they were gun-wielding girls. Residents of the suburban Kingwood community are shocked to learn four female teenagers have been arrested for armed robbery. Ladies, you're here before the court today for formal arraignment. Four teenage girls, moonlighting as armed robbers, and not just girls, but middle and upper-class girls. All high school students living in Kingwood,

19:44an affluent area of Houston. The girls boastfully call themselves the Queens of armed robbery. The first thing I thought when I saw them is that they were drug addicts. Judge Mark Ellis had never faced defendants quite like these in his court. Part of the reason the crimes were being committed was to get money for dope. Oh, you're f***ing hiding! Now! The girl behind this mask and the frightening bravado was the last person you'd expect to commit a robbery. 17-year-old Lisa Warzika. When we first met her, she was facing trial for robbery, a gifted young athlete with hopes for a college scholarship. I had so much potential, and I just wasted it. She's now a woman, 21 years old,

20:45and more than halfway through the seven-year prison sentence, she received for armed robbery. It's come by pretty fast. I kept myself pretty busy. But Lisa says it was almost unbearable when she first got to prison. Two people try to slit their throats. I think another try to hang herself. And... Ssh! Some people get that hopeless. Lisa had hoped to avoid prison. She and co-defendant Katie Dunn pled guilty, hoping they'd get probation from a sympathetic jury. But they had few answers for prosecutor Terrence Wyndham's tough questions. That lady behind the county, you scared the living daylights out of her day. Yes, I did. I want you true honest feelings. But if this happened to you, you want somebody to go to the pan, wouldn't you?

21:47Yes. The jury agreed and so did Judge Ellis. You made a choice, and that choice was to beat thugs, to go out and take money at gunpoint, and to terrorize these people. Spare me your tears. You have sown the wind, and you have now reaped the whirlwind. Those are tough words. Well, it's hard to feel sorry for the girls. They're violent, scary crimes, too many crimes. Was it the right sentence? Absolutely. Seven years in a Texas State prison, at the time, it seemed like a harsh sentence for first defenders. There was also the risk that the teams who went in would come out hard and criminals. But four years later, in Lisa's case, it appears as if the judge and the jury were right. I work on the maintenance crew. Today, Lisa Warzika is not exactly doing hard time

22:51at the Gatesville Women's Prison outside Waco, Texas. You do plumbing? Sort of, yes. She's managed to graduate high school, earn an associate's degree, and has been accepted by the University of Texas for her bachelor's degree. Do you hear from anyone from your high school class? One friend, occasionally. But while she's lost friends from home, she's regained close relations with her sister and her parents, who have once thought they had lost forever the little girl they raised. She was constantly in our face, very aggressive, very hostile. And not the daughter he knew, as Rand Warzika told us at the time of Lisa's trial. It was like somebody had come in into her body and taken Lisa, we knew her out, and another bad, foul mouth, bad attitude person came inside and was living in her house. Today, the old Lisa is back.

23:54I want to say I feel grateful for coming to prison, but I've definitely appreciated the experiences in a sense, because it's gotten me closer to my family. What got you here to go that far to, you know, you've gone and robbed a store? I didn't care. I didn't appreciate what I had. And you always think that you'd have it worse. There's others who have it worse off. Forgive me on this, but it sounds like this might have been a good place for you to come to. Sometimes I think that, you know. But there have been disappointments. Lisa was turned down in her first attempt at parole. All I could do is apologize and move on. People afterwards thought of you as a common criminal. I'm sure they did. But did you think of yourself that way?

24:55Yes, I am. I am a criminal. Do you think it's possible you'll be here the entire seven years or close to it? It's possible. I'm hoping for the best bit, kind of, expecting the worst. In some ways, you've grown up here. Right. Eight years in prison, a conviction for murder. How much punishment is enough? Could Rebecca be set free? The verdict hasn't changed. She's still guilty and has been found guilty of murder. G'day, I'm Justin Wolffers, host of the Platypus Economics Podcast. If there's one thing I've learned from a career teaching economics, it's that your life is shaped by economic currents you'll never see. A single price tag can explain things a thousand experts can't. People who understand economics, they make better decisions. In their careers, their finances, their relationships, and their communities. And I want that for you. Listen to and follow Platypus Economics,

25:55available now wherever you get your podcasts. We're talking about murder. The Ohio State Parole Board today faces a momentous decision. Should it recommend clemency for a convicted murderer? And I submit to you, this murder is one of the worst murders I've ever seen. In prison, sits the murderer. Twenty-six-year-old Rebecca Hopfer. What are your thoughts on the eve of this? I'm pretty nervous about it. This is the third time we've filed for clemency. And if prosecutor David Frances Shelley has his way, she will fail again today. We're here again, third time for clemency. And if you truly think about it, this defendant has never acknowledged what she did. 1994. Prosecutors charged 17-year-old Rebecca Hopfer

26:55with killing her newborn baby. You told the parole board that this was the worst murder case you had seen in 20 years. Were you really serious about that? A newborn baby was born and she took that baby and that baby was crying and squirming and she stuffed it in trash bags and stuffed it in a trash can in the garage. If that's not heinous enough for you, I don't know what is. So heinous that Rebecca was tried in adult court and sentenced to 15 years to life. You've been here for how many years? Eight years. I mean, in some ways you've grown up here. Right. We first met Rebecca in 1998. She was 21 and had served just three years. But memories of life before prison already were fading. It's her friend or member like what my personality was like and how I was with other people. No, that I'm not the same person that I used to be.

27:58Rebecca grew up in Dayton, Ohio. A good student, talented artist, writer in the high school band. From Senator Lil Hoyo, the Senator Jazz Band. But at 17, after what she says was her first sexual experience, Rebecca found herself pregnant. It's like every teenage girl's nightmare. Basically. She never told her parents and they never caught on. In part because Rebecca showed few physical signs. It was strange because sometimes I even wondered if it wasn't just my imagination because I never felt or kicked. I never felt or moved. Then the inevitable. In the upstairs bathroom, behind closed doors, Rebecca gave birth, alone, to a baby that weighed just over four pounds. And so I pushed once and she just like flew out. The horror only got worse. In her quarters, after underneath.

29:03And she was all grey. I can see every building in her body. I was like, no, she's going to be okay. She's going to be okay. But it wasn't okay. She says the baby was dead at birth. I guess I panicked. It was like, and I put her in the bags and I picked her up and I carried her downstairs and I later in the trash can in the garage. You did nothing at all to harm that baby. No. It was not alive. No, she wasn't alive. You're absolutely sure. Yes. Rebecca then went back into the house and watched TV with her mother. What were you feeling when you were sitting there watching TV? I was hoping I'd bleed to death. But she still said nothing to her parents. Soon she did confide in one friend and that was all it took for a word to get out. Suddenly we hear this at the door. Within days, detectives confronted Rebecca's mother, Brenda.

30:05I'm about right here and the three of them are clustered right there. We know from some Centerville people that your daughter had a baby, delivered a baby, killed it and threw it in the trash. I said, what? Brenda was shocked, astonished. Exactly who said what would be hardly disputed later, but police did get Rebecca to sign a statement. She did cry and she was still moving once I put her in the bag. That's what she was told to write. With a very incriminating last sentence, a sentence that raises serious questions for Rebecca's father, Ken. It does not flow, does not follow, it's totally not even the way she writes. Why would you write that sentence? Under any circumstances. Because I was scared and I trusted the police officers. So I felt like if I cooperate with them, the things are going to be fine whether it's true or not. And so I wrote what they told me to write. Armed with that confession, prosecutors claim that Rebecca clearly was too hard

31:06court to be rehabilitated in the juvenile system. So off to adult court, she went. All right. There was talk of a plea bargain to the lesser charge of manslaughter. But Rebecca told us in 1998 that she wasn't interested. I turned it down because I wasn't going to admit to something I didn't do. But Rebecca, you'd be out by now. I don't care. She was still moving once I put her in the bag. You wrote that. At Rebecca's trial, prosecuting the case, the very same David Franceschelli. He hammered Rebecca on the stand. Tell the jury now. Tell the jury was a baby alive or dead. Which story is it today? She alive or dead when she's born? My story all along has been that she's been dead. But the jury didn't buy it. We did jury to find a defendant. Rebecca didn't hop for guilty of murderous charges. Never forget that moment with you. It's a terrible moment. A terrible moment.

32:06She was 17 and that's a part of this that kept getting lost. Everybody kept treating her like she was 35 years old. You know, we're talking about a 17-year-old girl. Even the judge had misgivings. The late Lee Bixler. It was a shame to ruin her life. Prospect of this little girl being rehabilitated was excellent. But the judge had no leeway. In Ohio, a murder conviction in adult court means a mandatory sentence of 15 years to life. We don't have anything that says for a young child who is in this kind of situation. We have something less than a guy who chops somebody up with an axe. David Frances Shelley defends the lengthy sentence. She's made her bad and she needs to sleep in it. And if it's 15 years of life, so be it. In 1998, Rebecca was still a troubled girl as reflected in her drawings.

33:07What have you learned through all of this? I haven't learned a lot about myself yet. Because... Um... I still pretty much hate myself. But remarkably, five years later, Rebecca Hopper seems a very different person. So you laugh now. And you didn't laugh the first time I talked to you. I mean, you have changed. Hating yourself takes a lot of energy, so... Um... Easier just to let some of that go then... To hold on to it, I guess. But one thing hasn't changed. Rebecca still insists she did not kill her baby. As for turning down that plea bargain. At least I know that I've stuck by what I believe to be true, so I can blame my head down at night and go to sleep with a good conscience.

34:07Mm-hmm. Right, but you're going to sleep in prison. That's okay. There's one victim here. Certainly it's fine with David Frances Shelley, who is back in front of Ohio's parole board, trying again to keep Rebecca in prison. A lot of girls have babies and they don't stick them in plastic bags like that. And she comes here today not accepting responsibility for the third time, the third time. The bottom line to this case is how much punishment is enough. But now it's Rebecca's turn. And her attorney is about to argue that the charges against his client are unjust. Her sentence, unfair. Rebecca faces at least seven more years in prison, unless she wins this fight for freedom. That's next.

35:10I don't really have too great of expectations because the let down is bad. Today, while Rebecca Hopper sits in prison, her parents can and Brenda prepare to face Ohio's parole board in a battle for their daughter's freedom. They told us that there had never been a club in Seaharing where there were 20 supporters there. And so we were going to be sure that we had more than 20. Rebecca's been a model prisoner, even earned a college degree. But growing up in prison has taken its toll. I just hate the time it's taking away from her. She already feels like she's old. She says, my mom is 30. And what do I have to show for my life? Now, Rebecca's attorney, Madri Ellis, must convince Ohio's parole board to give that life back. And are we at that point now where enough is enough and is time to let her go? Ellis knows the board is eager to hear remorse from Rebecca.

36:10Problem is, she still says she did not kill her baby. But Ellis argues that doesn't mean that Rebecca isn't sorry for what happened. She didn't tell anybody. She was pregnant. She didn't tell her mother, didn't tell any of her school teachers, school counselors. And she admits that that was wrong. Wrong, but not he says, grounds for a murder conviction. Rebecca has been severely punished when you compare her case to other young women who were in similar circumstances. And Ellis says in those cases, no one got a life sentence. It's always been the same. But prosecutor David Francescelli will hear none of it. That's what they keep doing. Baby was dad, baby was dad, baby was dad. Let us go. Never admitting responsibility for her actions. Never saying, hey, listen, I killed my baby. I'm sorry.

37:12And this hearing is now adjourned. Thank you. Rebecca's hearing is over, but the board will take its time to decide. Thank you. Oh, thank you. Thank you for being here. We have been set back so many times and hurt so many times. It's hard to get optimistic, really. You just sit here and wait. Right. What's that like? Nerv, Racking. One month later. New Center's evidence six. The Ohio parole board is recommending that a Miami Valley woman in prison for killing her child be considered for release. Fantastic. Oh, right. I still feel numb. Then, shortly thereafter, even better news. Ohio's governor Bob Taft accepts the parole board's recommendation and grants Rebecca clemency. It's just a shock. That's all I can say. But I feel like you're still in shock. I am. I just want to stand up and down and go, oh my god, is it real?

38:13You know, really, really, really. Governor Taft's order says he acted because of overwhelming community support for Rebecca, because of her age at the time of the crime and her achievements while in prison. Prosecutor Franceschelli thinks the governor is about to set a cold-blooded murderer free. The verdict hasn't changed. She's still guilty and has been found guilty of murder, a purposeful killing of her newborn baby. That's not going to change. The prosecutor's views are of little concern to Rebecca today. This is very impressive looking. So you got this today? Yes. What do you do with this? Probably put it someplace very safe. She'll spend her first few months as a free woman at home. Sometimes, I kind of worry that maybe my parents are going to try to pick up where we left off. And treat you as they did when you were 17? Yes. So it'll be an adjustment for everybody. But it's an adjustment everybody is eager to make.

39:15She just needs to make some of her own decisions. And she says, mom, if I fall on my face, then I fall on my face. But I need to do it myself. I'm ready to have a, or at least try to have a normal life. So I'm ready. Rebecca Hopper gets to go home in May. One condition of her release is finding work. But she has a job lined up with a car dealer and an offer to intern with a state lawmaker who's been a supporter. In the years since most states toughened up their juvenile crime laws, they've already been second thoughts in some revisions. Some states are giving judges more flexibility in sentencing. But others are just fine-tuning the harsh penalties. It'll probably be years before we can really know the full impact of the hard line approach.

40:17Sean Pekka is the president of Hudson Link, an organization that provides education, life skills, and re-entry support to incarcerated and formally incarcerated individuals. Sunday, the NFL on CBS is back with an electrifying week one double-header. The early slate features Josh Schallon in the bills, taking on CJ Stroud and the Texans in Houston. Then, it's a classic NFC North Battle, as Jordan Love and the Packers visit the Vikings. It all kicks off at noon Eastern with the NFL today, live in Minnesota. See you Sunday with the NFL on CBS and streaming on Paramount Plus.