3RD LINDSAY "CLANCY-STYLE" HOMICIDE, HOLDOUT JUROR ATTACK

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1:04Weight loss by hers not available in all 50 states. Wigowy is the registered trademark of NOVO Nordisk AS to get started and learn more, including important safety information. Wigowy clinical study information and restrictions visit for hers dot com. I'm hosting a barbecue tomorrow and nothing's party ready. The grill's in the box. The patio's a mess and I haven't even bought snacks. That's when I post on airtasker. Local Taskers handle the errands, set up, cooking and more. Go to airtasker.com or download the app. Airtasker, get anything done. Hitting your protein goals has never been this easy or tasted so good. Introducing Skypop Protein Soda, the refreshing soda with 10 grams of complete protein, and no misleading collagen fillers. Visit your local Costco now and pick up the variety pack, featuring three delicious flavors. Light, refreshing, and ready for wherever your day takes you. It's any time protein that helps you reach higher. Skypop Protein Soda, reach for the sky. Pick up your Skypop Protein Soda variety pack today at your local Costco.

2:05Mom, are we there yet? 10 more minutes. Only 10 minutes? Can you drive slower? What's up with them today? Lingo Kids. That app we downloaded last week? They love it. The games, oh, this funny baby-bought character. Kids, we're almost there. With more than 4,000 interactive games, songs, and shows little ones can't get enough of. Lingo Kids is the number one entertainment platform for young kids. Why didn't we download this sooner? Everything Kids Love. Download it for free. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A third mom kills her children, plant-sees-style. Lingo Kids is the number one entertainment platform for young kids. This is the Clancy Giorer Holdout Attacked. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I wanna thank you for being with us. Is she just actually saying maybe I still believe she's guilty?

3:15What? I did use these elastic bands around their little necks and she choked a life out of them, Nancy. The Giorers are thinking a mother could not possibly in a hostile and malicious way kill her children. But what they're not talking about is her danger to the community. She took the exercise band out of the bag, grabbed an empty water bottle, and tied the band around the water bottle and pulled it. We're not in here to play detective or it's not a game of clue like this is serious. It's disgusting. No, it's not a game of clue. A Giorer speaking out on ABC, it is a real life case or with three dead children. But the demonstration, the holdout Giorer performed and the jury deliberation room was that too much for you?

4:16Try to imagine that demonstration instead of a water bottle, it's Dawson or Korra or Callan. Yeah, just tonight, the loan holdout Giorer under attack, this as another copycat mom kills her children, plant C style and of course says I was having a psychotic break just like her. When will it end straight out to Lauren Conlon joining us, investigative reporter, contributor LA magazine star of pop crime TV, Lauren, the most recent, plant C style murders. The floodgates are open. It's so tragic and this actually occurred in April of 2026, the Jeanette McCoslin case and she also tragically strangled her six and seven year old son and daughter, Kai and Ella and then she fled to her aunt's house in Vermont.

5:20But Nancy, what is so chilling about this is essentially what you said. She said to her aunt and to police, I wanted them to go to God or I wanted us to go to God together, but it didn't work. And Lindsey Clancy, when she strangled her children, reportedly said, go to God, baby. McCoslin also attempted to take her own life by cutting her own throat and then she reportedly drove to her grave. Okay, let me understand something. Let me understand something. Lauren Conlon joining us, investigative reporter. So now I've got Lindsey Clancy who killed her children and tried to kill herself. I assume you have seen that window where there are blood smudges down the, there you go where she was holding on to make her fall lesser. So in that case, Lindsey Clancy tries to kill herself.

6:20And in the next case, we've got Corey Walsh who tries to kill herself with what a butter knife and is found in the bathtub like she's in a movie. And now we've got Jeanette McCoslin. She admits she killed her children. It's not open to maybe so and so did it. She admits she did. But isn't that right Dave Mac, but says she was in a Clancy style psychotic break? Yeah, she claims that she was having a total mental, you know, wash out when she committed this heinous crime against her own children. And I'm with you Nancy, when is this going to end? I understand baby blues. I understand what happens after a woman has a child, but come on, man, we're killing children, here's after they're born and claiming that it has something to do with their birth. Clearly she was in is suffering. Let's not go back and fall back on the same default position that when a woman that is

7:25obviously mentally ill is involved or associated with horrific tragedy like this, we automatically prosecute them criminally to the fullest extent of the law. The defendant explained to her aunt that she had tried to kill herself. This Madison asked the defendant where her husband was and the defendant stated that he was at the lake when asked where the children were, the defendant told her aunt that she had killed them from our friends at WCVB and WBZ. So let me understand that now third Clancy style killing of children. She's talking about what did she say about the lake going to the lake Dave Mac? That's where she said her husband was at the lake is they were trying to identify. Well, where was he when this was taking place? So he was not home, not that dissimilar from the other men in these cases where they're away from home. The mother knows they're away from home and how long they're going to be away from home when this action takes place. Tell me the facts surrounding McCaw'sland, he or you were seeing right there.

8:28Tell me the facts surrounding their murder's Dave Mac. Well, the children were both killed by strangulation. Right. And after, and we're talking about a seven year old, Kai Macaw'sland and a six year old Ella Macaw'sland both were found dead inside the family's home. It's the dramatic horrible part of all of this Nancy is again, seven years old and six years old, they know what's going on. The children were both killed by strangulation. After she kills them, Macaw'sland then drives to her aunt's home in Bennington, Vermont, which is I think three hours away. Well, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So after killing two of her children in the home, like Clancy, like Walsh, biosteficiation, like Clancy, like Walsh, waiting until planning until the husband was gone, like Clancy, like Walsh.

9:29This woman, Jeanette Macaw'sland, then gets in her vehicle and drives three hours. What happened to the suicide attempt? Well, the suicide attempt happens when she tries to cut her throat after telling her aunt that she has killed her children. Her throat looks fine to me. What happened? When police showed up, Nancy, Macaw'sland was covered in blood. And again, we're talking three hours of a drive to get to her aunt's house and try to cut her own throat. Let me ask you this. Lauren Conlon is Macaw'sland in the hospital getting treatment right now? Is she an intensive care? Well, Nancy, I think that we're missing a really important part here is also the fact that after Macaw'sland attempted to slip her own throat, she drove to a bridge and attempted to jump off. She attempted, she actually told police and she told her aunt, quote, she couldn't go through with it. That right there tells me she is sound of mind.

10:32And not only that, she was going through a pretty contentious divorce at the time. So there was a guardian at Lightham involved to try to work out custody arrangements. It was getting pretty messy. So at this point, and it's kind of confused. I'm sorry, Lauren Conlon. She just lost me. That's a non-sequitor. Fancy a Latin talk for it. That does not follow. She's in a contentious divorce. 50% of America is in a contentious divorce. The answer to you being in a contentious divorce is not killing your children. So what if she's in a divorce? Don't care. I care about what happened to those children. So let me understand this, this facts here. I think you and Dave Mac are both right. So she kills the children. Then decides to go on a three hour drive to Bennington Vermont on Friday night, driving it night. That means negotiating the traffic, negotiating the twists and the turns.

11:34Then she shows up, covered in blood with a gash on her neck. She confesses to the aunt. She killed her children and tried really hard to take her own life, but she didn't want to die. Okay. How did the children... Look at the children. They're dead. How were they killed? I know it's fixated. Do you know Lauren Conlon? Were they strangled with elastic exercise bands? Like in the Clancy case, were they hung with a cord in the basement? Like Corey Walsh's case? What exactly happened to these two little children? Because all I'm hearing about is her and her problems. I'm hearing nothing about them. I know. And Nancy, it's heartbreaking. They were found in a bed covered by a sheet, strangled to death. Now I do not know if she used an apparatus.

12:34I believe that unfortunately it was with her hands. But I don't know that all of the details have come out yet because surprisingly their official causes of death have not been revealed by the medical examiner's office in Massachusetts just yet. Now her children are dead and we're hearing all about her. And I guess the next step is the way that Kevin Reddington explained away all of Lindsey and Nancy's methodical decisions that she made when killing her children and covering it up from her husband. I guess we're going to hear that happen in McCallston's case now as well. But listen to what her attorney is saying. Clearly she was in is suffering. Let's not go back and fall back on the same default position that when a woman that is obviously mentally ill is involved or associated with horrific tragedy like this, we automatically

13:37prosecute them criminally to the fullest extent of the law. The defendant explained to her aunt that she had tried to kill herself. Ms. Madison asked the defendant where her husband was and the defendant stated that he was at the lake when asked where the children were, the defendant told her aunt that she had killed them. From our friends at WCVB and WBZ straight out to Dr. Chloe Carmichael. Dr. Chloe is not only a psychologist, she is the author of nervous energy and you can find her at freespeechtoday.com. Dr. Chloe, I'd like to hear your analysis. Well, Nancy, this is a tragedy and I just have to say I noticed that the lawyer had really minimizing language there where he said when a mother is involved or associated with a tragic event, what actually happened of course is that the mother committed suicide. What I think we're seeing here is something psychologist called the blueprint effect, which is where when a person sees how another criminal does a crime and potentially gets

14:40away with it, they literally start taking it as a blueprint. One other really tragic effect I think we're seeing here is something called the Werther effect, which is that when a crime is romanticized and the criminal gets lots of sympathy and isolation, maybe even lots and lots of go fund me dollars, other people start seeing, you know, maybe I could do that too. And then instead of being held accountable, I would actually get lots of adulation and admiration. The defendant confirmed two officers that she had killed her children. After confirming the defendant's residence, the defendant's police contacted the Wells League Police Department and asked that they conduct a welfare check at that home. Wellsley Police responded to that location, you're on her and upon entering to conduct a well-being check, found two deceased children, seven-year-old Kai and six-year-old Elma McLossland. This is Judge Corsalt, can you hear me okay? Yes sir. Do you have the waiver form in front of you? Yes sir. Yes sir.

15:40Do you understand by signing the waiver, you are giving up those rights and there will be no further hearing and you will be transported back to the state of Massachusetts. Yes sir. I just saw the worst of the defendant. That's correct. That's what I did. Okay. Thank you. Well it seems like she's come out of her psychotic interlude, the acupuncturist mother, Jeanette McCallson, accused of killing her two little children at their Massachusetts home, then takes off to Vermont to go to an aunt's home. You see here in court reading and speaking clearly, that was her arrangement to Marie Pereira joining us veteran criminal defense attorney domestic violence expert and registered nurse, an arrangement, explain.

16:41It's when the state presents the charges against you on paper and they outline what codes of the penal code you violated and you get to plead guilty or not guilty and most sentences you're afforded an attorney if you can't afford one, but this is the beginning of the case. These two children found asphyxiate we are told in their mother's bed. Mom then says she tries to kill herself, plantse style, Cory Walsh style, gets in a car and drives three hours at night leaving the dead bodies behind. Then says she tried to kill herself and confessed. Now claiming she had a psychotic break. Joining us tonight, Dr. Thomas Coyne out of Tallahassee, he is the medical examiner district eight medical examiner for the state of Florida. He's also a toxicologist, any forensic pathologist and a neuro pathologist Dr. Coyne, thank

17:43you for joining us tonight. According to me, what these children went through the two latest children to die, clancy style as they were asphyxated by mommy in mommy's bed. I'll just say you know from medical perspective, when a person is asphyxated or strangled, when the brain senses that lack of oxygen or blood flow and immediately activates your fear center, the amygdala in your brain, you get a sudden release of adrenaline and cortisol, you feel panic, this impending doom and so I can only imagine what they were feeling at that moment of time. Plus, the strangulation is a very intimate type of murder. You're within arms reach and so they're looking directly at their mom. They're with the person they trust the most in the world and then suddenly they have this horrible act performed upon them. I can't even imagine what they experienced. And I'm assuming it was painful as well because to facilitate the act, I'm assuming she was grabbing the neck very hard, squeezing very hard and so they had this pain and sudden panic from lack of oxygen and then of course realizing their mom is the one performing

18:49the sack. I can't even imagine. Moving days going great until the couch won't fit through the door. Tilt it, it is tilted. So I posed a task on AirTasker, set my budget and choose a local tasker to help. Suddenly the couch is inside the new place, the TV's melted and my drone has been retrieved from my neighbor's tree. Big tasks, small tasks, even the weird ones. Go to airtasker.com or download the app. AirTasker, get anything done. Hitting your protein goals has never been this easy or tasted so good. Using Skypop Protein Soda, the refreshing soda with 10 grams of complete protein and no misleading collagen fillers. Visit your local Costco now and pick up the variety pack featuring three delicious flavors. Light, refreshing and ready for wherever your day takes you. It's any time protein that helps you reach higher.

19:52Skypop Protein Soda, reach for the sky. Pick up your Skypop Protein Soda variety pack today at your local Costco. Mom, are we there yet? 10 more minutes. Only 10 minutes? Can you drive slower? What's up with them today? Lingo Kids. That app we downloaded last week? They love it. The games, oh, this funny baby-bought character. Kids were almost there. With more than 4,000 interactive games, songs and shows little ones can't get enough of. Lingo Kids is the number one entertainment platform for young kids. Why didn't we download this sooner? Lingo Kids. Everything Kids Love downloaded for free. Time Stories is so proud to be supported by Grand Canyon University. An affordable, private, nonprofit Christian University based in beautiful Phoenix, Arizona. GCU doesn't settle for the status quo. They shatter it. At GCU, academically rigorous industry driven programs are built to move at the speed

20:52of relevance with practical skills, career readiness and opportunity for every learner. And GCU believes education should not be a privilege but an affordable path forward for all. In fact, they've kept tuition at the same rate on their traditional campus for the past 17 years and they're continuing that into the 2026 to 2027 academic year. Grounded in Christian faith, GCU works to empower the next generation to lead with integrity, serve with purpose and help transform their communities, building a future that matters. GCU is purpose driven education. Take action. Find your purpose at GCU, private, Christian, affordable, nonprofit. Visit gcu.edu to learn more. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Marie Pereira joining us, veteran trial attorney.

21:58Marie, I know this latest Clancy style killing a children occurred during a divorce as Lauren Conlon pointed out. Have you ever seen cases I have where the mother kills the children as a get back to the father? I have not handled cases like that but I call it spousal revenge. Absolutely. She was in the contentious divorce with her husband. I'm not buying all of this psychosis business. She's saying. And I slightly disagree with you Nancy when you put your fingers up and say Clancy style. The only thing that's similar is the manner of death robbing those children of oxygen. But none of those women have documented proof of prior out cries of depression saying they heard voices in their head saying kill your children. They were not on dozens of medications and misdiagnosed by health care professionals. To my knowledge, nobody checked them.

22:59Check themselves into a lockdown facility. So you with this Clancy style. I don't know Nancy. I love you. But really that part. I don't think it was Clancy style when you see that they had no prior history of documented mental health illness. Marie, let's do what I fondly call a lightning round where you are limited to yes and no answers. Agreed disagree. Oh no. Okay. Number one, aren't both mothers all three mothers white females? Yes, agree. Yes, yes, no. Okay. Didn't all the children die in the home? Agree. Didn't all of these children die at the hands of their natural born bio mom, isn't that true? Agree. Isn't it true that in all three cases the mother waited until the husband was gone to affect

24:04the killings? Agree with everyone accepting exception. I'm not through because you say these cases are not Clancy style and they are copycats. Isn't it true that in all three cases each woman claimed she tried to commit suicide? Agree. And isn't it true that none of the women ended up dead but their children did? Agree, but no one had prior history of out cries documented. We heard that. We are going through the similarities that make this a Clancy style killing and a copycat. Isn't it true that all of these children, one, two, three, four, five, six, all were asphyxiated? Isn't that true? Correct. And isn't it true that all of these children were under eight years old every single one? Isn't that true? Correct. Okay, straight out to you, Dr. Chloe Carmichael, that would be enough right there and I've

25:10got so many more killed in the home in a secluded area of the home to which the mom had soul control that the act were planned. They were methodically carried out. I've got pages and pages of similarities. This is what we call a copycat or a fingerprint crime. Explain. Yes, Nancy. It's also what psychologists would call a social contagion effect, which is where people get an idea. I mean, for a lot of times it would be something like anorexia or cutting or other various things where it just kind of seems to go around all of a sudden. I mentioned the worthy effect earlier, which is where there was a killing, a suicide that happened in a murder by a protagonist named Werther. And all of a sudden it started going around so much where young men were doing the same thing as Werther did that Denmark and Italy actually had to ban the book.

26:10This was in the 1700s. This has been going on since the beginning of time. When people see something, they get an idea and if it works out in any way, okay, for the person who did it, such as Lindsey Clancy potentially just getting off and her getting over a million dollars in the GoFundMe and all these things, people start thinking, maybe I might consider that too. So it becomes a social contagion. And then you see where Clancy is basically rewarded by over a million dollars being raised for her and her parents. And to top it all off, Jeanette McCaw's lawyer, Joseph Kroski, tried to get her case dismissed and her to walk free. Yes, he stunningly requested that his client be freed and the case dismissed. And this is even though McCaw's son admits that she killed her two children, seven year old, tie and six year old Ella wanted to walk free.

27:13That's not all that is happening in the aftermath of Clancy, but just as a side note, to Dave Mack or Lauren Connell, let's start with you, Lauren. How much money has been raised for Lindsey Clancy and or her parents? Well, as you said, Nancy, it's over a million dollars at this point. And I believe the woman who started the fundraiser, she came out and spoke recently that she had no connection to the family whatsoever. She started this just to raise money to help pay for legal funds and it just seemingly took off. The bitter legal battle that had engulfed Jeanette McCaw's son may have been a source of worry, but that does not an insanity case make. That said back to Clancy, the holdout juror now being named, we're not naming him here on crime stories named and attacked to Lauren Connell, what is happening with the

28:17holdout? Well, it truly, it started last week when a few of the female jurors began speaking out. They referred to the lone holdout juror as arrogant, as seemingly not taking the deliberation seriously. And then the juror Nick had talked about this lone juror scrolling on his phone, just really painting a picture of a careless man here. And this is coming after it was stated by the four person that he wasn't following the reasonable doubt charge, etc. Well, by Friday, one of those female jurors, Paula, gave an interview with Gail King of CBS where Gail King directly asked her after she described the makeup of the jury having one person of color. Gail King directly asked her and said, was the holdout or lone juror the person of color? To which Paula answered yes. The internet seemed to just explode over this. And then later in the evening on September 11, NBC 10, who did the original interviews

29:18with these three female jurors, they released an investigative piece about the lone holdout juror about how he had a domestic violence charge in the past. He had some unpaid, or he didn't pay his rent and was squatting for six months. I mean, look, he was not convicted of a crime. The charges were dropped. I don't think anyone is defending it. Well, well, wait, wait, wait. See all that that you just said, all of the charges, everything, I mean, just I want everybody to just take two seconds and think of the worst thing you've ever done. And then to have it reported on national TV and at the end of the litany, the reporter says they were all dropped. It's kind of a footnote, right? But the way they described this guy and once you are said, he just couldn't get over the

30:21fact that Lindsey Clancy brutally murdered her children. Gee, I wonder why? Let's take a look at what Lauren Conlon was just describing. It was eight, two and two. So eight for eight people were leaning towards not responsible to hadn't decided and to thought guilty. 70 in 70 ish to 22 and one person of color and then everybody else was white. A lot of the jurors had children. A black man is a holdout juror. Yes. CBS. I think Nancy, it's it's important to understand the juror was not convicted of any crimes. And when NBC 10 published this report on Friday night, September 11th, apparently online sleuths had no problem getting the case number. And even this jurors name from this allegedly blurred documents on the screen, these case

31:28documents. And unfortunately, his name was was released and I am just sick over it. This man did not ask for any attention. He did not ask to be in the spotlight. And yet here we are, knowing his past and again, I'm not defending his past. I'm just questioning why I know about it. What do you say to those people who felt that the whole prosecution was insensitive? Insensitive. Insensitive is killing three children. Insensitive is ignoring those facts. We have an obligation to stand up for those people and see justice and make sure that they're offended and make sure they get justice. So if people don't understand that, I don't know how I can answer that question. I appreciate the fact that there are strong feelings and opinions tied to this case. I, job as a set aside out feelings and focus solely on the facts. The facts are Lindsey Clancy killed her three children and the evidence suggested to us

32:29that she was control of her actions when she committed those homicides. The prosecutor speaking out that's WBZ and East Idaho news. So much happening in the case and tonight the one holdout juror being persecuted and one thing I couldn't help but notice Dave Mack is how the jury vote changed. That jurors won by one gave up their convictions and went with the crowd until one juror held out. What is happening with the holdout? His name is out there, his picture is out there. What will happen next? Well, that's actually what is being discussed, Nancy. And I'm glad you brought it up because what can be done in our judicial system where you're sitting on a jury, you're not getting paid to be there really and you're brought in to judge somebody based on what you've heard. Now if you don't go along with the crowd, all of a sudden you're going to be outed for all the world to see and pick on you.

33:32There's got to be some retribution. There has to be some type of action that this juror can take against those because you know what you mentioned, they slowly gave in. Well we know that there was some intimidation going on in that jury room. There were big personalities is what we were told. And those big personalities kept wearing down until they finally got their way. One man, one person had the intestinal fortitude of character to stand up and say, I'm not going your way. And now he's getting doxed for that. Come on. How did his name leak originally or do we know Lauren Conlon? I've heard several different accounts of how that happened. Yes, NBC 10, they blurred his name on the documents that they showed during their television program, but it wasn't quite blurred enough along with the case number. So online sleuths were able to go online, go on to the the docket and look up the case

34:34number and then confirm his name. That is my understanding. And now several people I know had his name. They chose not to release it of course. And then some people felt otherwise and they chose to put it out there. And again, no one's defending what this man did. No one really or truly knows if he lied on his jury form, which is also being alleged. No one knows that except for the lawyers and the judge. And again, I just do not agree with this man's name being doxed and him being attacked just because he did not vote the same way. Again, I wasn't in the deliberation room Nancy, but from what I observed this jurd, I had a perfect view of him during the two weeks. I was I was inside the courtroom. He would nod at the defense experts. He appeared very engaged. He laughed at a lot of writing to snark. Clearly I had it wrong. I thought he was on the side of the defense, but just because you enjoy a defense attorney's

35:37commentary doesn't mean that you agree with the case. So my experience with this jurd was a little bit different. However, I acknowledge I wasn't in the deliberation room. Marie Pereira joining us criminal defense attorney. Marie, isn't it a crime to try and intimidate a juror? Absolutely. And I commend him for sticking to what his values are. This is what the system is all about. He doesn't have to go along with what everybody else says. Now I still believe that she was not responsible criminally because she was suffering from mental defect. She doesn't stop me from respecting his opinion that she was aware of everything she was doing and she needed to be punished. The fact that they leaked his private information and he wasn't even convicted of a crime. To my understanding, it was just a complaint involving domestic violence which was dismissed. If something like that is dismissed, I would think that his attorneys would say seal it,

36:40dismissed and sealed. So I don't know what they're trying to say that because he had a domestic violence case, somehow he had something against women. What's next? It's wrong what they did. The man had the right to sicken his guns and that's his right. That's why we have jurors. I decided to do some cleaning this weekend. Step one, open the closet. Step two, immediately regret opening the closet. In the coats, wedding gifts we still haven't sorted. Our wedding was three years ago. So I posted a task on AirTasker. A tasker organized the closet, tackled the garage and even hand wrote the thank you notes. Post your task, set your budget and choose the tasker who's right for you. Go to airtasker.com or download the app. AirTasker, get anything gun. Hitting your protein goals has never been this easy or tasted so good. Producing Skypop Protein Soda, the refreshing soda with 10 grams of complete protein and

37:43no misleading collagen fillers. Visit your local Costco now and pick up the variety pack featuring three delicious flavors. Light, refreshing and ready for wherever your day takes you. It's any time protein that helps you reach higher. Skypop Protein Soda, reach for the sky. Pick up your Skypop Protein Soda variety pack today at your local Costco. Warning, the following song has been rated dangerously catchy and may not be suitable for grownups. A-B-C-D in the morning brush your teeth. A-B-C-D in the morning brush your teeth. A-F-G-H hurry up and don't be late. A-F-G-H hurry up and don't be late. Lingo Kids, only suitable for kids. If it gets stuck in mom's head, that's not our problem. Mabel Kids! Everything Kids Love, download now for free. Crime Stories is so proud to be supported by Grand Canyon University. An affordable, private, nonprofit Christian University based in beautiful Phoenix, Arizona.

38:46GCU doesn't settle for the status quo. They shatter it. At GCU, academically rigorous industry driven programs are built to move at the speed of relevance with practical skills, career readiness and opportunity for every learner. And GCU believes education should not be a privilege but an affordable path forward for all. In fact, they've kept tuition at the same rate on their traditional campus for the past 17 years and they're continuing that into the 2026 to 2027 academic year. Grounded in Christian faith, GCU works to empower the next generation to lead with integrity, serve with purpose and help transform their communities, building a future that matters. GCU is purpose driven education. Take action. Find your purpose at GCU, private, Christian, affordable, nonprofit.

39:49Visit gcu.edu to learn more. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Lauren Conlon was describing how the name of the holdout juror was released, but I think it goes back to defense attorney Kevin Reddington. They know that they were robbed by one man for whatever his agenda was, who stole seven weeks of the life of these other jurors that was so attentive, so beautiful and listened to this evidence, and you can see how defeated they were sitting there. And I got a funny feeling that they were to go on for another week if they had. What was it a mistake to actually reveal the gender of the juror? I know during the course of the SJC argument, I believe that the gender of the individual was revealed

40:51and then it just followed through after that. From WBZ East Idaho News and ABC News, Reddington putting a bull's eye on the jurors back with that going public with the Lindsey Clancy family, getting over a million dollars raised for them with her becoming a media, darling after killing her three children. Is anybody surprised that there are copycat killers out there? Now we know one of the many reasons people do not want to be on juries. If this is the implication and there's another issue, Lauren Conlon, everyone is leaping to the conclusion that this juror lied. Well, I recall distinctly on my very first bank robbery case, I unwittingly put a convicted bank robber on my jury.

41:54And you know why? Because I didn't ask the right question. Wasn't his fault, oh, by the way, he vetted to convict. But that said, I was a new prosecutor and I didn't want to make potential jurors feel uncomfortable. So I didn't say, hey, do any of you have convictions? Does anybody in your family have a conviction? Does anybody you know have a conviction? I wasn't, I didn't want to upset them or embarrass them. So I ended up getting a convicted bank robber on a bank robbery prosecution. So I don't know if they asked the juror the right question. Did they say have any of you ever been accused in a domestic violence case, not convicted, accused? Have you been a party to one? Have you been at a civil complaint that alleged one? I don't know that he was asked the right question before. I jump on any ban wagon that he lied. I gotta know if he was even asked the right question.

42:56Well, there is a form that you fill out that has all of these questions that should reflect what you said. However, just because he has been charged or accused that that doesn't necessarily bar him from serving as a juror, I did go through some of the Massachusetts laws. And again, if you haven't convicted of a crime, it does not mean that you cannot serve. It's clearly up to the discretion of the prosecution, the defense, and the judge here. So these are very seasoned attorneys. And I was a big fan of Judge Sullivan. I have to think that they knew about this if they chose him as a juror, but I guess we'll wait and see. You know, it's interesting. Dr. Thomas Cohen is with us here as a renowned medical examiner. Even commenting on the case, even having an opinion on the case can get you a lot of hate. So Dr. Thomas Cohen, you are giving us the facts about what happens

44:00during an asphyxiation. But even going right down the middle of the road, you do know that that can get you a lot of hate, right? A lot of detractors. Absolutely, absolutely. And that's why I think, you know, many times in these cases, medical examiners, they don't rush the judgment. They don't immediately release their diagnoses. They talk intimately to family, to law enforcement. And they're very much aware of what is placed out there in the press. I mean, we're trying to be objective. Just be physicians and make our diagnoses based upon the evidence, but still the fire is placed back upon us. It's a very uncomfortable position to be in sometimes. Now, another case has reared its ugly head. Two more children dead at hands of their mother. Now claiming clancy style, psychotic break. If you know anything about the clancy case,

45:01because it is headed to retrial, please dial 7-8-1-934-5656. Or if you know anything about the Corey Walsh case, please dial 815-469-94434. Or if you know anything about the brand new, clancy style murder. And that would be Jeanette McCausland, please dial Welsley PD, 7-8-1-235-1212. It seemingly never ended. And that's what we mean by the floodgates are open. Tonight, we remember an American hero, Sergeant Patrick Arork, West Bloomfield PD, Michigan, just 39, shot and killed in the line of duty after 12 years, leaving behind his wife, Amy, and their children,

46:04Eileen, Mary, Andrea, and Stephen. American hero, Sergeant Patrick Arork. And let it not escape our attention that all of these women are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Each of them raising insanity as their defense. In most jurisdictions, that is what we call an affirmative defense. In other words, they say, I did it, but I was insane. And it is their duty to show they did not know right from wrong at the time of the incident. In Massachusetts, however, that burden is reversed. The state must prove not only is a defendant guilty, but the state must prove they were sane at the time of the incident. I want to thank all of our guests for being with us tonight,

47:07but especially to you for joining. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, Fred. Mornings at my house are impossible. Two kids can't find their shoes and the sink starts leaking. So I post my tasks on AirTasker. Soon, the sink's fixed and a Tasker installs a robot litter box. My cat hates. Go to airtasker.com or download the app. AirTasker, get anything done. Hitting your protein goals has never been this easy or tasted so good. Introducing Skypop Protein Soda, the refreshing soda with 10 grams of complete protein, and no misleading collagen fillers. Visit your local Costco now and pick up the variety pack, featuring three delicious flavors. Light, refreshing, and ready for wherever your day takes you. It's any time protein that helps you reach higher. Skypop Protein Soda, reach for the sky. Pick up your Skypop Protein Soda variety pack today at your local Costco. Mom, are we there yet?

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49:08Start when you're ready and get the support you need. Visit rasmussen.edu. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.