#353: Devin Green | When Coaching Takes a Backseat to Fatherhood

0:00Hey guys, thanks for being here today. Hey, real quick before we get on with the show, which is gonna be absolutely amazing. You're gonna love this one. Thanks for being here. I wanna let you know about this really amazing promo, this amazing sale that we're doing for the months of March and April. How would you like to get 10 free vaulting poles? That's crazy, right? All you have to do is buy one pole vault pit and weather cover or a value pack, et cetera, but you need to buy a pole vault pit and you'll get 10 free Pacer vaulting poles. That is an amazing deal. Contact your local, your preferred guild dealer right now, they've got all the details, but I don't want you to miss this. So I had to come in real quick before we started the show and let you know about this. So enough of my hammering, let's get on with today's guest. You're listening to the Gill Athletics Connections podcast with host Mike Cunningham. Track and field world. You're an L2N to a homo-serving Mike Cunningham. One of the extraordinary message on Gill Athletics Connections. All right, here we go.

1:01You have pressed play on the Gill Athletics podcast. I'm always so humbled. It really is amazing. I'm kind of a stats nerd. So I look at the stats every day and it is humbling. The thousands of people every day that choose to listen to an episode here on the Gill podcast. So so grateful for you. If this is your first time listening, I'm your host here, Mike Cunningham. I serve you as our National Business Development Manager here at Gill, overseeing the track and field side of our company. And you probably know me better as the podcast guy or even the Twitter guy. Because that's where I'm not on the podcast. I'm probably over on Twitter causing a ruckus over there. So thanks again for being here. I'm excited. I think I'm supposed to, I'm like the worst podcast in the world. I think I'm supposed to remind you to rate review all that kind of stuff. So if you have a second, just five star, four star, whatever, or one star. I don't know. What are you doing here if it's a one star? But I'm grateful that you are here, even if you are a one star hater. Is that what I'd call it? But I know who's not a hater. And that's today's guest. I'm pumped for this because it's been a while. Meaning he has been on the list for a long time,

2:03his career and where he's at today is maybe a little different than we've had as a guest here. And I'm always excited to bring you new and different views of our profession of coaching track and field. So help me welcome from the great state of Arizona, the wise, the wonderful Mr. Devon Green. Devon, how are you my friend? Doing great, Mike. Happy to finally get to talk to you on the podcast and excited to have some fun, as you said, and tell the story. Absolutely, man. Yeah, you know, patients, if you're a coach and you don't have patients, I'm not sure you're a coach for very long, you probably go to some other profession. I'm not what profession you could have if you don't have patients, but everybody who reaches out about being on the podcast, you get on a list. It's absolutely true that list happens to be this long, fortunately, honestly, and I only do 52 of these a year. That's kind of the thing. That's actually why I started the Gil 1918 project, which we run on Tuesdays through Sunday, much shorter form, 10 to 30 minutes,

3:03self-recorded podcasts, kind of the TED Talks of track and field podcasts, but that was an opportunity to get more coaches on to the podcast to help them explore and learn their voice. So I'm pumped for that. Devon, so first of all, you're in Arizona. I'm looking out the window and it's like 10 degrees. What are you dealing with? Is it actually cold where you are? Are you okay there? I mean, it's not too cold. It's been in the 80s, which is nice for us. Shut up, are you serious? It was 80 degrees yesterday. It's 80 degrees today. Luckily, I'm an outside worker, so I get to enjoy the fresh air. But yeah, it's been pretty chilly for us in the long, on tens in the summers and all that stuff. Did it get cold? Because I was talking to a friend in Texas just south of Dallas. And I was like, so what's the weather? I was like, did it get cold? And I was thinking like, oh, I got 20, which that's legit cold in Dallas. And he said, yeah, I woke up and it was seven. And I was like, oh, like that's cold no matter, like even us, Northern, now I'm not Northern now, I guess. That's cold.

4:04Did it ever get, like, you know, we had a kind of a nationwide cold snap. In a minute. I'm about 15 minutes from ASU. It doesn't get too cold where we are in the city, but if you go outside to some of the surrounding cities, like South Chandler, Queen Creek, not too, but if you go 15, 20 minutes away, where it's closer to the desert, it gets pretty cold in the 40s and the 30s at times. But here in the actual city, it's been pretty warm. It's going to be a high of like 29 today. And honestly, 29's like, ooh, feels nice. Like this ain't, this isn't bad, yeah. 40s. I've lived in Arizona for 20 years now. I don't know how many 29 degree days I've seen. I am insanely jealous, just so you're aware. Yeah, although I've been in Arizona during the summers and late summers where it is 110 as well. And right, right. Although I would rather complain about that degrees, you know, I'm saying so, yeah, I'm still jealous.

5:06Well, Devon, let's hop in our way back machine here and let's learn more about you assuming you were an athlete and we certainly know what assuming does. And we've certainly had amazing coaches on the podcast who were not athletes. But maybe assuming you were an athlete where in the world does track and field start for you. So for me, we have a, my family has a track and field back from my grandfather, ran it at University of Mount Union in Ohio some years and years and years ago. So I don't know if my interest from it came from that or just, you know, being the fastest kid on the playground as everyone once was. I ran track in high school. I only ran track in high school to spend more time with my girlfriend as most boys want to do in high school. And so I did that and then as a sophomore, then it turned out to work out, okay, I ended up running for,

6:07I, when we were in high school, I started running. I got roped into the four by four from a kid who got injured pole vaulting. And that was kind of the, the rest of my track career and ran that all through high school went on to run at Mesa Community College for Steve Jacobs, who is there for 100 years. And key, you know, that kind of changed everything. And if I had never ran track in high school, I can tell you right now, my life would not be what it is right now. So tell me in high school, because in you moved to Community College already so are you, did you grow up in Arizona? I was born in Connecticut, lived in Ohio for some time. But I've been here, I've been in Arizona since I was in eighth grade. So what's that 13, 14 years old? Yeah, wow. So what attracted you besides your girlfriend? And you know, what's interesting is that is not an uncommon reason, you know, to, to be around girls

7:07or you know, I have a story in high school where we had two foreign languages. You could take Spanish or you could take French. And I noticed, French class was 100% girls. And I was like, yeah, well, I'm taking French. Like, like my kids now take foreign language. Like, why did you pick French dad? And I'm like, I'm not going to lie to you. I was the only dude in the class. And that was pretty cool. Like I got some prom dates for that. It was a lot of fun. So I hear that a lot with our track. Yeah, when we used to recruit kids on campus, our two things were, do you like missing school? And do you like? Yes, check. And do you like girls? And for the boys and for the boys and for the girls is do you like boys? Right. You're going to meet some, you're going to meet friends on track teams. You're going to have for the rest of your life. That's right. That is right. So that is what you picked for us. Besides that, because it sounds like you're fairly athletic. Did you play basketball, football, tennis, any other sports? I played basketball since that was the first sport

8:09I ever played. I played baseball growing up. I played a little bit of football growing up, not a ton. Not enough to say that I was a football player. But yeah, I did play sports growing up. It's when you look back on like you're upbringing and what you're doing now and your new jobs and all these other things is how well can you work with others? And you see, you meet a lot of kids now who have never really been part of team sports and that dynamic of putting five individuals on a court, 11 individuals on a field to accomplish a common goal. And you see a lot of kids that never went through those kinds of things. And I can't express the importance enough of being a part of youth sports and all that stuff. So I did play sports growing up, which is so different from track and field and cross country where it's really just you versus nine other people and a race or you versus 100 other people

9:10and a cross country race. It's just you versus you at a lot of times and you versus the field. And even though there are team aspects to both of those, it is really different competing in that sense for the team part of those sports because you don't see it directly all the time. So yeah, the team aspect of sports, I can't express it enough and how important it was growing up and all that stuff. Absolutely. So I love your sentence because it puts together a lot of truths. A kid got hurt, pole vaulting. And so I got roped into the four by four. Those are two really truths about our sport. Oh, absolutely. Four by four. What were you before that four by four? Were you more of like a short spinner, one, two, or are you more of an eight, 16? I ran. So I ran the 400. That was my main event. I was not a part of the varsity four by four when we got to that meet. I don't know if it's this way in other states,

10:11but in Arizona, meets are just the longest meets of all time. Oh, bro, that's everywhere. Yeah, yeah. It's my number one complaint about our sport, absolutely. Yeah, they're just the longest meets of all time. We're showing up places at 7 a.m. and running four by four is at 9 p.m. And I ran my race at, I don't even, I couldn't even tell you what time we'll just say mid afternoon. And then someone comes up to me and, hey, so and so got hurt. We need you to run the four by four. And that's kind of how it started and how it ended because my last race ever was a four by four as well. So it's quite crazy how that happens. What did you think when we've actually heard, it's not an uncommon story that heroes are born when someone gets hurt or someone is needed for a four by four. You know, that 100 meter spinner that, or they would never run the 400. And they split up 49 or whatever. You know, they had a meter guy who, Gal who thinks, she's a distance person, has to fill in four by four and runs a 53 and she's like, oh my god, maybe this is what I really am.

11:12What did you think? Because you know, I can almost like picture this. You've run your 400, you did your job. That's what I am a 400 meter guy. I went and did my thing. And now, you know, I've got five more hours. So I'm gonna go talk to my girlfriend and hang out with my boys and get the meets over. I'll share from my four by four team, but you know, but when the meets over, we're gone. And then all of a sudden, it's like, hey, Devin, spike it up, we need you in the four. What did, I mean, that had to be a little scary. No, I definitely was. If I can, you know, I remember that it wasn't, that's my, you know, I was my first track meet ever. And, you know, they're, hey, we need you. And so and so got hurt. And I'm like, wait, what, like what's going on? And like, how hurt? He's like, he can still go, right? Sure, are you sure you need me to do this? And, you know, and it's so funny too, because I mean, you've coached and I've coached and that, that look on that kid's face that's not supposed to be running that race. And, and all of the excuses they make to try to get out of it. And my mom's on their way to pick me up.

12:13And oh, I just ate a lot of thogger. I think I'm injured too. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not sure I'm the right guy for that. So I'm sure it was a little bit of excitement, a little bit of, you know, it's older kids that are coming to get you usually. A little bit of, it worked out. You can, you showed back up the next day for practice. You didn't like, oh, man, I'm toast. Get out of here. There's nothing like a high school four by four under the lights with all your friends. And, you know, everyone in the stands watching and cheering. And so this was your first four by four ever? Ever, ever. What like, what like did you run? Oh, man, I couldn't even tell you. What a real, I ran anchor most of my four by four career. So probably, what I'm getting at from the first one, I'm wondering because you probably hadn't practiced handoffs. And I didn't understand the four by four skill level handoff is lower than say like the four by one. But you still need to know, hey, Devon, don't cross this line until you get the baton and make sure you're inside this line.

13:14Like there to be some kind of like, how, how did you handle like just the logistics side of it? Man, I wish I could remember now, because that's a good fact. It's been a while. But I'd have to say I was either first or fourth. I'd be my guess. I couldn't tell you, but I just remember the excitement of it. And wow, I can't, you know, once you do it the first time and it goes, well, it's, you know, wow, I can't wait to do this again. And hopefully beyond this relay for the rest of the season or the rest of your life at that point, I guess. That's why I push back when I hear people say something that you said earlier about how it's an individual sport. And there are some team aspects, but it's really individual. There's another great podcaster. There's a lot of YouTube live shows, Texas Track Dad. I love, advance a lot. Yeah. Yeah, become one of my good friends. And he and I spar a lot about whether it's an individual sport or a team sport. And he's very much on the individual side. I'm very much on the team side. And what I love about the team side in the four by four

14:17and the relays in general, you know, it's not uncommon that someone splits way faster, not just faster. Oh, yeah, for sure. But way faster than they can run the open. And my contingency is it's like, oh, yeah, when I've got Devon's in front of me and I'm about to, you know, I got to get the stick to him. I don't want to let Devon down. Yeah, absolutely. If I'm in the open 400 and I have a bad race, well, that sucks, but that's on me, you know, because of the individual side, I can't complain to anybody. But man, if I don't, if I have a bad split and Devon is behind, that sucks, man. And so I think it's because we now run for what's across our chest and not our individual. I think it is a team sport, my friend. I really do. Yeah, no, I definitely agree. I mean, we've all seen kids and had teammates that were never the best open runners, but you put a baton in their hand and they're, you know, Mr. Real liable. So I had magic baton, baby. Yeah, we should run nothing. I wonder if there's a coach out there that practices with everybody holding a baton just because it's like, man, maybe this will give them

15:18some juice just for like, we're gonna do a repeat 200s. Grab a baton. We used to do 200 meter relay practice with batons. Yeah, it's, it's enjoy running with them. So, you know, anything to anything to, to, to motivate kids to run faster. So I love it, I agree. Well, you know, spoiler alert, you end up becoming a track coach at some point, but while you're in high school, you're 16, 17, 18 year olds, 18 years old, what was your relationship like with coaches? It was good. I mean, we had, man, we had a revolving door spring coach. I think we had a different spring coach every year, but my senior year, we had a coach, funny enough, his name's Michael Johnson. Not, not me, Michael Johnson. Did you know who Michael Johnson was though? I did. I did know who he was. And then when I first met our coach who was a track guy from Kansas State, he ran and coached. And then he, I forget how he ended up in Arizona, but he was a special ed teacher for us. And he was hired as the new track coach.

16:20And I remember he found out about me and one, and a couple buddies who had class together, he came into our English class and introduced himself. And which was cool because he was on campus and none of our other coaches were. So, you know, he came found us and was like, hey, I'm your new spring coach. And, you know, that kind of, as our, that was our senior year. So as that kind of happens, it's like, hey, like this is, we've got a guy that clearly cares. He came to find us and this is a, this is a, you know, a great person to have right now to try to, you know, to try to, you know, accomplish the goal. And, you know, that was the best team that I'd been on in three years. We were state runners up as a team, state champions in the four by four. And I think it was all because we had that relationship that started so early in that school year that carried all the way through, you know, through the track season and the relationship and the trust. And, you know, we kept everything really light.

17:21So, I think for us, you know, we had great coaches, we had great relationships with them. And you spend so much time with your track coaches in high school and college and professionally, but you spend so much time with them that if you don't get along with them, you're gonna very quickly find out. And we had the same head coaches for my three years that we were there. We had, you know, a different spring coach, but every year felt like you become a track family as people like to say, but we had, you know, we had really good relationships with, or I had really good relationships with my coaches in high school, you know, I got to MCC eventually, you know, Coach Jacobs is still, still talk to him today. You know, whenever I have decisions that are coming up, you know, I love to hear from him. And, you know, he's been like a father to me. I always tell him that if I ever get married one day, I'm an invite him to my bachelor party and be in my wedding. But he's, yeah, it's the relationship part of it,

18:24you know, it's always super important and something that you don't think about in the moment, especially as a 16, 17 year old kid, but looking back, you know. I mean, I still see, you know, my old coach, Mike Johnson, he's still coaching and I still run into him right, pretty regularly a few times a year, but, you know, I'd still talk to him. So I, my head coaches are still coaching now. One's a pole vault coach at one school, one's a javelin coach at another school. You know, my, my, our former girls coach is an athletic director somewhere who I still talk to regularly and her son is still a very good friend of mine. So yeah, it's, I would say I'd pretty good relationships with those people, you know, through that time. What a great example about the, like, when Michael Johnson, the non-controversial in the news, Michael Johnson. Yeah. For Michael Johnson, it pays his debts, that's that. Stop, stop, it's true, but stop. We don't slander on here.

19:24And right now, that seems to be what the truth is. So we're not slandering here. But I love that he went and pursued. Like just a, just an introduction. He could have easily waited until the first preseason meeting for the team or the first practice. He went just, just introduce himself to you. Like, and, and what an impact that made on you that, that reminds me of another, he needs to get his podcast back up and go on, but other great coach who's been on the podcast here, Ryan Banta from Missouri. And I may, I may get some specifics here, but he is very intentional. He writes like a, essentially a recruiting letter, if you will, to eighth graders as they're finishing up their eighth grade season, because they're going to be freshmen for him on his season. Right. And he even has so much like for his girls, they have like a rose ceremony. So each ninth grader gets paired up with a, I don't want to say senior, maybe older, a junior or senior leader, and like they give him a rose, and then becomes their mentor and things like that. And, and it's going to be a time of how impactful, like he gets a lot of eighth graders that continue on.

20:26Yeah. Because of this, I just think about that intentionality of a coach like that, that's really cool. Yeah, we had a, so we had a feeder school, but we would, but in Arizona, you can go to any high school you want. So from our feeder school, there's a high school closer to our feeder school than they were to Higley High School. And there's a lot of different charter schools and smaller schools and some, there's some religious factors as to where people determine where they're going, which is totally fine, but we would bring our coaching staff and our team to junior high practice for cross-country and track and field. And, and we're always like, you know, this stuff never works, like these kids are going to go, wherever they want to go, blah, blah, blah. And I remember one, one year we had a younger kid and he came up to me at practice one day or once we were finishing in the weight room or something and he was, you know, telling me, I was just kind of asking him about, you know, I was like, oh, how are you liking it so far? Are he was like, you know, I, he's like, I remember you guys bringing however many kids we brought

21:31and talking to us at our practice and, you know, showing your face and all that stuff and that was really important as to why, you know, I'm here running right now and it's like, when you do those things in the moment, you know, you don't really think, hey, you know, this is gonna sway this kid or this athlete one way or the other, but, you know, it ends up working out in your favor and then you look back at, you know, you're running career and how many times that happens, you and how impactful that was and it's funny that you don't really think about that in the moment, but once, you know, once it actually happens, you know, it changes a lot and you know, showing that face and having that recognizeable face for the kid, you know, it means everything. Yeah, I agree, that's awesome. I love that story. Yeah, okay, you're a senior, you're thinking about college, you're thinking about what am I gonna become when I grow up so we know you go to Mason Community College, but I'm interested as you're transitioning

22:34from senior year to your freshman fall semester, is coaching in your mind at all or you're thinking about becoming a firefighter, a doctor, a business owner, what are you thinking? I think everyone, it's so fascinating. I don't know that it's like this in every sport, but I feel like in tracking field specifically, every kid who has ever ran, track, ever, and enjoyed it, you know, even just a little bit. At some point, everyone tells their coach, like, I'm gonna come back and help coaching. And like, and in the moment, you're like, this is so fun, like, I wanna come back and help. And I can't say it many times, I heard it. And it's funny as you start going on and you get to a point where you are coaching it is, 10, 15 years down the road, you do get former athletes coming back to you, like, hey, like, you know, I finished with school, I'm doing this, I'm teaching, I'm doing this, you know, I'd love to get into coaching. But I remember when I was in high school, as a senior, you know, I told my, I told Coach Clark, I said, hey, I wanna come back and help coach someday.

23:34I don't know when that's gonna be, but, you know, I'd love to do it. And he was like, But you were thinking like, I'm gonna, because I'm gonna become a track coach. Oh, I was gonna help out. So what were you thinking? Like, what were you going to college for? What did you think you wanted to do? I, I'll be honest with you, I was lost, I had no go as an 18-year-old, I don't know the many. You know, I had no idea. I remember my girlfriend was headed to Arizona State. I remember we were at the state meet. I had a former teammate who was a freshman at Mesa Community College. And he said, hey, were you going to school next year? I said, I have no idea. He said, you're coming here. I said, okay. He said, I'm getting you in contact with Coach Jacobs. And he did. So it was kind of funny. We were at the state final meet. I'll remember, I'll never forget this, but we're at the state final, we're at state finals. And, you know, Kyle, Kyle Burns comes up to me and tells me, hey, you know, what are you doing? We have that whole conversation. He's like, you're coming here. I think I heard from, that was on a Saturday.

24:35We get back to school on Monday. I'm pretty sure I heard from Coach Jacobs shortly after that. And then, you know, we graduated on a Wednesday. I visited the school on a Thursday, signed the letter of intent on that day. And that was kind, the rest is kind of history, as they say. Yeah. I've said this a million times. I'll say it a million times in one. It still boggles me that we make 18 year olds pick a major that is going to affect the rest of their life. Oh, and we charge them a whole crap ton of money for it. Because you're right. When you're 18, it's probably, you know, this is episode 350 something. It is probably close to 50, 50. Maybe 60, 40 on the 18 year old kid going, I had no clue going into college. I had no clue. Or they thought they did. Like, oh, yeah. I was going to become a nurse because whatever reason. And then boom, I went into Fizzette and I became a high school teacher and coach track. Or, you know, after my freshman year, I realized, oh, I'm not a nurse. And so I changed to architecture and became a college track.

25:39I mean, there's so many avenues, but it's, it is not, it's certainly it's not the majority of an 18 year old who knows exactly what they want to become and go out and actually do it. Because you're 18 for crying out loud. You have no idea about the world. Your brain is still developing for another seven-ish years. That is not uncommon, my friend. I actually kind of liked that a little bit more versus the guy or guy who thinks they know exactly what they want and then they get disappointed when they get into it. You know, it's like, oh, crap. I just spent five years in college, $100,000. And I don't like bookkeeping. Why did I go become an accountant, right? Actually, like the outside, I should have been an environmental engineer or something. You know, it's like, well, you ain't doing that now because you two broke, you got a $100,000 in loans and done it. Yeah. Absolutely. I have a son who's in his freshman year of high school. And very big into, like he's ranked in the state for bass fishing and all that kind of stuff. So he's a big environmental guy. He loves working outside. And I'm like, you know, if he tells me after a senior year, dad, I just want to take a year

26:40and go work in the forest preserve or go do that. And then I'll decide on college. Like I think I'd be more proud of that than I'm going to go to University of Illinois or wherever. And I think, hey, go make up your mind first before we know what, before you know what you want to do. Go get some experiences because I'm sorry. High school senior, even the most gifted and involved high school senior still is not experienced. They have no idea what life paying bills, working with co-workers. I mean, it's just, yeah. It's amazing to me. So I love that. Okay, so you go, so you have no clue. Here's the good thing, Devin, you're average. You're normal. You have no F and clue as an 18 year old, what in the world am I going to do in this life? You go to basic community college. Obviously coach, I think it's a coach Roberts. Coach Jacobs. Coach Jacobs had a huge impact on you. How so? He was like, I, you just spend so much time with these people. And, you know, when you're with them all the time and so, so the story with him, it's so, it's so fascinating

27:44because there is a chance that he was never even my coach. But there are, the athletic director, basic community college gets fired. They bring in a new guy and that guy comes in and kind of tries to clean house and gets rid of a bunch of coaches. And there's, you know, Coach Jacobs is one of them and I had heard from a teammate. He was like, yeah, I like ran into him at a movie theater or something and he was telling me how Coach Jacobs might not be coming back and, you know, there are some other coaches on campus that we're trying to take over and not take over, but step in if you weren't coming back and, you know, the new athletic director that was there was trying to kick the old people out and bring new people in that he was to hire and, you know, how that, how that goes. So, so I remember getting to MCC, not even knowing if we had a coach or not because you're just a freshman kid with not, you don't know many of, many of any of the team. You don't know anything, right? You have no information, right? So anyway, he ends up staying and, you know, he was our event coach. So I'm with him every single day.

28:46You stayed 400-ish? Yeah, I stayed, I ran the, I ran the same three events my entire track and field career. I ran the open four, the four by one and the four by four. That's all I did. There's a little triple jump stint in there, but it didn't last very long. So, you're truly coaches. A little bit above. Anyway, Coach Jacobs, he was our event coach. You just spend so much time with those people. You start lifting in August when school starts. You know, you lift, you're in the weight room three, four days a week up until you start running in Arizona for us. It was late. It was around, it was before Halloween. So, you know, a couple weeks before Halloween through, you know, through May. And when, you know, when you're with the event coach every day, I mean, it's very easy to become best friends with them or at least you think you are and always making your own workouts. So. Hey, how did you, something that makes me always wonder, you know, when you're in high school,

29:47a lot of our male track athletes are playing football or soccer or basketball. And so you're, you're kind of competing all year, you know, going through the fall, you're competing and then into your track season. When you get to college, you're typically a single sport athlete. Now you're doing track in the spring and you're practicing in the fall, but you have no, like when you're doing a hard practice, you're just about to get to that too, about what, you know, you think you're good friends until he makes you a puke, basically, right? You're doing that in the fall with no, like, the fun part is competing. You have no, it's hard for you to see, oh, January, which in Arizona, you might not even be until March, right? And when you're doing that in March of your high school, it's like, well, this weekend I get to compete. So I know the sucks on Monday, Saturday, I get to show out. How did you handle, because I'm assuming you did not practice in the fall or at least consistently in high school, but in college, you did. How did you handle the, I'm practicing all the fricking time and I don't get to show off at a meet now that I'm going to go?

30:47I think it, I mean, when we were in high school, you know, it's very different than it is now and I can get to both of those. But, you know, there weren't, there weren't really club meets or, you know, anything in high school at that time, you know, everything that was clubbed in was, you know, was, was in the summer. I don't, I couldn't even tell you if there is, I'm sure there was, but like Nike indoor nationals, new balance and, or I don't even know that that was a thing back in like 2005, 6, 7, you know, I don't. I can't even, I feel like I'd be very in tune with it and even I can't think of, I had to be, though, there had to be something, but there had, there had to have been one meet, you know, for, probably in probably in the Northeast and for cold weather states, because you're in Arizona, there is no indoor track and field, you know what I'm saying? So, so yeah, you, you wouldn't even as a high schooler. I wouldn't even know where to compete if I run. Right, right, right, right. So, so for, for, for being in high school, you know, we, it's funny enough, I didn't, I got,

31:50got from my basketball team as a senior, new coaching staff, him and I, we didn't see eye to eye as a emotional 17 year old, which is totally fine. But me and a couple other kids who also didn't play a winter sport, we started training with our coach at the time and once we got back from Christmas break, so that's in January, which isn't a huge off season, but it's, hey, we're, we're not doing anything. He wanted to start work in and, you know, we got a group together and that group slowly grows and, you know, and, and so for, for us to, I guess kind of understanding that early is, hey, if we start practicing now, you know, we're going to be very successful in one month, two month, three months, you know, and then that, that eventually paid off, you know, winning a state championship in the four by four and having a state runner up title as a team and getting a banner, you know, for the gym and a trophy and all that stuff, like that was all really cool. So, when you get to college, you know, and it's funny here, the junior college region here, you know,

32:50they do compete in indoor, but all of our indoor meets are outdoor. So. Is that right? We still today? Yes, so, yes, still today. I mean, you can travel up to Flagstaff and go on at any of you, you can go to Albuquerque, which is what some teams decide to go, but I mean, they're running the 60 outdoor when it's six years outside, they're running all that stuff outside. So it's a little different in sense of the truth to indoor or how real indoor track is here. When you go, it's funny, the year I coach at MCC, I finally got to understand it. So we'd always hear from our coaches, but like those coaches back east, they're not super pumped about there. Our zone of school is getting to compete outdoors for all of this time before they, you know, finally, the step foot on an indoor track. So I think it's just seeing that goal of, hey, if we work hard now, we'll be successful later. And, you know, you really got to be committed to getting better into working hard if you think that that's gonna be your path

33:52because like you said, you're not competing until, you know, the first indoor meet for the junior college season here is at the end of January, right? In high school, you know, if you start competing until the first weekend in March, so if you can get past that hard work part of doing nothing for later, you know, it gets a lot easier. You know, one of the, I'm gonna pull the curtain back here a little bit, and I think I can do this with you. You know, one of the hardest things about being a podcast host of a podcast like this, you know, interview style, kind of long form bio type style is when I'm asking a question, I'm, you're, it's in our nature to answer it at whatever age and stage Devon you are today, meaning all the experience you've built up over the years. And what I really, like when we get to the gold is when I can get Devon to go back to being an 18-year-old in answering that question. And here's why I say that, Devon,

34:53maybe you're catching on a little bit to where I'm getting at. You just answered that question as Devon the, I don't know how old you are, it doesn't matter. Devon today, meaning, oh, you know, if you work hard, you know, you can see that it'll pay off in the future. I don't know many 18-year-olds that can say, oh yeah, I'm cool working out, busted my hump today in August, because you know what, in February and March, it's gonna pay off, you know, it's like, man, it sucks, bro. I'm out here puking my guts off and I don't get to go, I like to be on the relay. And there are, there's no relay this Saturday. The relay's six months from now, you know what I'm saying? I appreciate the way you answered that question, Hoach. I'm wondering if it's, if you can, it's hard, because you know, it was years ago. Can you access that part of your memory in the feeling part of your memory when you were a freshman at Mesa. It's October, it's hot, jealous. Oh yeah. You know, you're working harder than you ever have,

35:56because it's, you know, you started earlier and you got better overall teammates, so you're working harder. You can't wait to find out, man, I wonder how fast my open quarter is today, you know, like, man, I was screwing around in high school in October and I'm busted up here. Oh, but I don't get to do that until March. How did you handle, how did 18-year-old Devon handle that? So like I said earlier, you know, you're tracking field teammates or your friends for life. One of my really good, good friends, Clark, Clark Coil, he went on to run for a coach flood at GCU, here in Arizona. I think he's part of that national championship team they had before they moved to Division One. But so I, he was, he was one of the best kids in the state. He was a year older than I was, so he was a sophomore and I got to MCC. But to him being one of my teammates, a great friend, you know, he kicked my ass for an entire season.

36:58I mean, just every, every single rep, every single workout, every single, whatever. And you know, when you're in this isn't, I'm not trying to boast myself here, but like when you're the best kid coming in and that older kid is already there, he's like every, you know, oh, we just signed this freshman from so and so and he's this fast and, you know, whatever. And you know, I've coached, so I've seen it. But it's a, you know, that older kid, because that was me my second year, you know, that older kid is like, this kid's not coming in here and it's not gonna be easy for him. So, you know, every day of practice, he was kicking my ass. I remember, I remember what changed everything for me who was over Christmas break. There was me, him and a heptathlete from ASU who was, you know, who needed to keep training over break. Our track was being redone. So the way that the, the way that the stadium is shaped here for at Mason Community College, it's, you can run a grass, there's like a half mile loop if you run it all the way on the perimeter of the track.

38:00So it's in the grass behind the bleachers, under the bleachers and kind of where you end is. It looks, if it's a, it looks like a big 300, basically. So if you run that, you can run it as a half all the way around or you run it as a 600, 700-ish, you know, to the opposite, to the opposite end of the course, I guess. So we ran that and every day, we were waking up at 8 o'clock in the morning to go run with Coach Jacobs, me Clark and think her name was Samantha. If she hears this, I'm very sorry. But every day, he beat me, he made me look bad. And, you know, and that was kind of like the, hey, we're not, we're not at Higley anymore. You know, this is, you know, if you want to be good, you know, it's gonna take a lot of hard work and stuff. And, you know, and when you start, when you get to that point of, you know, getting your buck kicked in every day and all this other stuff, you know, it changes a lot

39:01and you find out a lot about yourself on it. If you're going to, you know, quit or if you're gonna fight and, you know, to, I think my success to him because, you know, I learned a lot about, you know, it's not gonna be easy and all that stuff. So, you know, I used to, I used to tell that story all the time and still do, but yeah, that whole, that two and a half weeks of winter, when we were on our own and I was just training with him and our coaching, you know, it, you know, I remember this too, you know, we had one of our spring coaches who was there. You know, I remember being at a meet one day, just so frustrated, like I wasn't running as well as I thought I should be, but, you know, he came up to me and told me, he said, hey, you know, you're not running as fast as you, they expect to be running right now, but in that's part of being a freshman here, but I'm telling you right now that you had such a great fall, like lifting and working out and all that stuff

40:03that everything's not gonna click right now when your body catches up to, you know, the hard work and all that stuff, you know, it's gonna change a lot for you and it did eventually later that year, but, you know, it's- Was that coach or athlete, I'm sorry, that said that too? That was a coach that was on me. Yeah, that's a coach right there, but that was a young coach who, you know, who had gone through the same stuff and told me, you know, once everything catches up to it's all like, you're gonna be fine and you're gonna be running, you know, as fast as you expect to be and all that stuff and it did. So I'll add a little to him. That perspective, Devon, is 18-year-old, Devon. Thank you for that. That is what you described earlier where the lessons you've learned from going through that aspect, but that is the truth. When you are either the best person on your high school team or one of the top persons on your high school team, and then you go to college and you're like, ah, crap. I'm like, eight, wait a minute. I haven't finished a rep and was fourth, like I haven't done that in years since I was a freshman in high school.

41:04What is going on here? And you're right, there becomes forks in the road and you probably face this fork several times, most 18 year old kids do of man, do I even show back up tomorrow? I don't need this, I mean, I love track, but you know what, I can just go to class, you know, I can go get it. Yeah, absolutely. And you kind of go through sometimes that fork in the road of recommitting, like, okay, I'm not quitting. That's a recommit to track and to practice and to the team and to yourself as well. So that story, like that to me is gold. When someone listens to this episode and they hear that and they go, you know what, I did that too, you're right. I was, you know, cause again, it fascinates me even with, and this is where I push back on this narrative of, you know, coaches, regardless whether they're at Arizona State or Mason Community College, that they don't develop athletes. They only want the ready-made athlete, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I look at every single number one kid in the country, no matter what event that kid is not going to win

42:07the national title next year, based on where they are that day. You know, we've got kids in high school running 995, 997. It's amazing. I mean, that's crazy. I can't even, you know, I graduated high school in 94. I can't, I remember when I met a 1060 kid and I was like, holy crap, you're the fastest kid in the world. You know, well, there's a kid now running 99 in high school. Kids, by the way, running 995. And still, they will not win NCAAs at 997. You mean me? Where they go, they're not going to probably be the number one kid. They're going to go to Georgia, Texas, USC, wherever else the other fast kids are. And they're going to finish a rep in second or third and be like, wait a minute, I was nice to kill everybody in high school and they also, two things, one, they're going to have those same forks in the road. You're a 999 kid or a 1099. It happens almost to every one of us where it's like, oh, is this really what I'm supposed to be doing? Because it is a different intensity level in college. And two, whoever's coaching that night, I think one of them or two of them went to Georgia.

43:08So Carol Smith, Gilbert and her staff, who do is an amazing job. They're going to have to develop that kid to a 999, 989, 987 to win NCAAs. So yeah, this whole notion of coaches don't develop. I just kicked to the curve. I think it's just ridiculous. But it's amazing to me that kids who are top of their team at a high school, you've got some decisions to make. And I think it makes you better. It's funny, you say that coaching is a funny world and it's a funny job, but we'll get to this more when we get to that part of the interview. But just quickly, I was fortunate enough to, I say coach. I was fortunate enough to coach Vance Nilsen, who is the national record holder in the third year. Yeah, that's right. I'm sure we talked during that time at some point. But I was fortunate enough to coach him. And just like you said, he had an amazing senior season. He went on to run at the trials, missed the final by one spot. But when he went to Florida, it was the same stuff.

44:08It wasn't, he didn't win nationals as a freshman. He went there, he had some injury issues. And I was fortunate enough to see him last year when he came home around the end of the season. But just like you said, it doesn't matter how good you are right now, you're not winning nationals as a freshman. I mean, Jay Hendranger, the same thing. That's part of the great example, right? Part of the development, it's part of the sport. And that's why I think that's why track and field is so different. I think in terms of coaching, I've coached girls basketball for some time with a couple of my really good friends. But when you get those kids as freshmen in high school, and they stick in the program for four years, there's a girl that I coached who's at Adam's state right now. But she started her first freshman mile, I believe, is like 542 or 537 somewhere in there. She ended her high school career at 456.

45:10I mean, that's that's that long progression of hard work and show day and doing what's right and being a great teammate. And that's the stuff that kind of propels individual athletes in programs. So that's so cool. Is Vance still at Florida? He is still at Florida, yes. He just can feel it. That's what it can. What a great example. Because again, I almost called this podcast the Mythbusters. Because I just, not unlike society in general, in our sport, in our profession of track and field, sometimes the negative is the loudest. And we forget that they're as positive, right? So one of the negatives is that coaches don't want to develop spub kiss. Another negative we hear is, oh, kids today, soon as they have any adversity, they just transfer. Look at the transfer portal, Mike, it's full of them. Vance has gone through some injuries, some disappointment. He's not had, quote, unquote, the easy road.

46:12He's sticking with mouse in that program. I love that for him. Again, that just shows that not everybody is transferring. Are people transferring? Sure. They used to transfer back in the days. Oh, absolutely. Are more transferring today? Possibly, not only because maybe it's a little easier. I don't know if that's actually true. But I think it's more culturally. You turn on ESPN today, and all we talk about is transferring. You watch a football game. And the announcers make a point to say, formally a BYU, the Texas running back, whatever, blah, blah, blah. Like they say it every single time. Every single time that kid touches the ball, they'll say, formally, it'll be, and it's like, shut up. He's at Texas now or whatever, you know? We care about what he's doing right now. Exactly. And so it's kind of, I think it's culturally like, oh, it's cool to transfer. It's like, you almost like if you don't transfer, what's wrong with you? Kind of mentality with our young people and coaches. So I love, that's what I was hoping. I was like, I hope he's still there, because that just shows. And there's a lot of factors that go into it, but I love that he's there and sticking with it. OK, Devon, we didn't come here to talk about transfer report,

47:13although that always pops up. You're at Mesa. You go through a freshman year, you get better, I love it. Now you're a sophomore. Tell me, take me through sophomore year and what happens now. It's junior college. You only get two years. You got to move around. Although maybe today's world, we can do five years at Juke who knows anymore. But back then, we only did two years, right? I did Juke, you made there's a for a long time, right? Medical red shirt, physical red shirt. Oh, yeah, it was a whole deal. So second year at MCC was really good. It was like every year, new kids come in and the old kids leave. And it was a similar situation where at this point now, I'm Clark and I'm the number one guy on the team and the new freshman kid comes in and oh, he's not beating us. It's funny because you have such a short time on the team because it's only the two years. But as hard as we worked and the groups that kept coming in,

48:13they kept passing down the hey, we don't screw around here. It's we showed the practice, we work hard, we don't miss days. And we qualify for national's like that's our thing. So that's how it went. We showed up in the fall. I think, I think coming, I remember coming back from nationals are my freshman year taking some time off and then immediately getting right back into the weight room. I remember going to lunch with a professor at the time, Jeff Messer, who I'm sure people here, if people hear this, they're all going to know that name. He's in South Dakota now. He was a great coach in the state of Arizona. He coached. Yeah, I know that name. Jessica McLean, he coached Jessica McLean who's now a marathon runner. So he was a professor at many zones and he was a professor amazing meeting college. I still talked to him to this day. Yeah, very good friends. Yeah, I didn't know. But I remember going to lunch with him and hey, what do you want?

49:13Your off season to look like? Hey, this is what everyone is like, it's so funny because like just dumb 19 year old like you said he was a professor. Was he coaching on the staff? He did not coach, he did not coach us. He coached Xavier Prepp, which is not Xavier College Prepp, which is a high school where he got linked up with Jess McLean, Jess Ton at the time. OK, he coached. He coached there, then moved over to Deservista. OK, starting to rough. I just was like, well, you keep saying it. I'm a professor, but I didn't come as coach. Yeah, OK, keep going, keep going, sorry, sorry. No, the running world is so, the running world is so small. So I mean, there's so many people who know, you know, so many people. But I remember, you know, I remember my dumb brain was like, I got to get bigger and stronger. That's why I did run fast. So I was like, I don't think that's really the right path. You need to go down, you know, just keep being in the weight room. Yeah. You know, working hard or whatever. So I remember from July to October whenever, you know, my focus was there was to get stronger to help workouts.

50:14You know, go smoother, stay healthy, you know, all that stuff. And it did. And you know, you start running in October. And you know, it's making sure you're not losing the freshman kids on your team and trying to set the example of, hey, if we're going to be successful, you know, it starts with me and my other two buddies who were sophomores with me. And, you know, just it's, it's, it's, we ended up, you know, having a really good year. And I think we broke, we broke the school record as freshmen. And then we came back and broke it again as sophomores with a different, with a different fourth person. But I mean, it all, you know, back to what we were saying earlier, like it all starts in the fall and, you know, putting in those hard days then. So when you get to those meets on the weekends, it's, hey, this is the easy part, you know, we've run four by four, fifty three by six or, you know, whatever that is. Like we've done all the hard stuff. So now it's just doing it all in a race. And that's, so I mean, year two was, was great. And, you know, you just, you know, one of the, I tell this story a lot, but the thing that I'll never forget about that second

51:17year was, I remember coming home from Paradise Valley Community College with Coach Jacobs. And it was, it's so, it, so we used to drive white advance to every meet. And it was, we had six coaches. There were six groups. Everyone rode basically with their event group. And I remember riding, it was our relay team and a couple other sprinters. But we were all riding with Coach Jacobs and he was telling, you know, some of the freshmen, you know, his story about, you know, almost not having a job. And that whole deal with the athletic director and like, he was like, you know, like I said, you just spend so much time with these people and you become like family and he was telling us to start and he was like starting to get emotional and like, we're all kind of getting like sitting there like getting emotional. Like, it's like, we're glad you're here. You know, and it's just you, and then from that, I mean, he went on in coach for 15 more years. So, you know, it's, it's, it's just such a track and feels just such a funny world. And, you know, it's, it's, it's a lot of, it's not sexy work as

52:17Messer used to say, but, you know, it's, it's, if you do everything right and you have a good coach and you're following the plan and doing all the right stuff, I mean, it's, you know, it, all the hard work does show eventually, you know, it's just not a, it's not the microwave culture of, hey, you get good right now and, you know, you're going to see the results right now because that's just, that's not how our sports is, sports built. So, are you, do you have a major or are you taking, uh, Gen Ed, I'm taking Gen Ed, I have no clue what I want to do. Still, no, nothing, I'm a junior college athlete. I, I think that I'm going pro, I have no, I have no, I have no clue. I was like, man, this track thing's pretty cool. I'd love to just keep doing this. Nothing, nothing caught your interest. You take a math class. You're like, I don't like math, no English, nothing. You're just like, man, I take classes because that's what I have to do to run track. Right, I, I, I, the famous Cardale Jones, we don't go to play school. That was pretty fun. You know, I, I, I, I love hanging with my buddies.

53:18I love going to practice running and I, you know, I had no, I had no plan in the world, uh, just taking Gen Ed classes, you know, try and just going through, uh, just going through life honestly. Yeah. Uh, so what happens? Uh, it's off more year. You don't sound like you know, was it a junior college? Well, I, we run, well, uh, I get recruited kind of late in that kind of had I got recruited sooner earlier. My track career is probably a little different, but, um, I remember it would have was, what was my fifth semester, uh, is when I started hearing from, you know, some different schools across the country, but, um, you know, it, I, I had no idea what I wanted to do, uh, found out at the time my girlfriend was pregnant with my son. So I was like, Hey, you know, I'm just going to start working, you know, doing whatever and, um, and that's kind of how coaching started a couple of years later, you know, I hear from, you know, my former coaches and, uh, and then that's kind of how the ball got rolling. So it hit Hickley, uh, yeah, that's actually where I ended up.

54:18I remember one of my former teammates who I lived with, uh, who I lived with at the time. I remember he was like, Hey, have you heard from coach Clark? I was like, no, uh, you know, I wasn't really, I wasn't on Facebook or, you know, anything. And he was like, yeah, he reached out about, you know, if you and I wanted to like, you know, volunteer coaching, we needed, they needed some help. And I think not I haven't heard from them. I was like, I'll reach out to him and I probably put it off for longer than I should. But, you know, eventually reached out to him and, uh, you know, he, they had a spot open to volunteer and right before the season started, you know, that sprint coach, I think, quit or left or something. And, you know, he came to me and was like, Hey, we've got a spot if you would like to take it and that's kind of how it got started. So something you said earlier, I was going to ask and this maybe is a better place to ask it. So you said, you know, a lot of track, you said, I think it happens more in track. And I think I would agree, but we're also biased. We only know track. Like we don't want to do the football and tennis world and golf.

55:19Uh, and I agree with you that, you know, it seems like a lot of track people are like, they're going to help out or at least they say they're going to help out. Like, oh, I would, like I'd come back in coach and volunteer and all that kind of stuff. Do you think if we say that it's true that that happens in track and field more than other sports, um, do you think, what, why do you think that is? I, if, if I had to put my finger on it, I mean, I know, I know this, this, it is for me and I know that, um, I think a lot of people would agree if you think about it, uh, in this way, but I just think that, I think that like, I, and we're both very biased to track because you just said, but I think track is very life-changing. Well, like you find out a lot about yourself in those days and how much it does for you at the time. And I'm going to play devil's advocate here. I've heard that with tennis. I've heard that with lacrosse. I've heard that with basketball. I've heard that with it's just, it's just such a, it's such a unique sport to where you're with your teammates every single day, going through some

56:21of the hardest and you've ever gone through and I, I, I, I, I understand we're saying I just, I think there's something unique about our sports, where it is, where I think that it, it is. So I, I think it's a life-changing thing. Like I would not have the life I have today if it wasn't for that one, four by four, where the kid gets injured. So we haven't explored this before that I can think of. We, we don't like these topics where we'll all have the same topic with five, the next five guests. So this, this is interesting to me. Do you think this just kind of self-topped my head here? I've never thought about this before. Do you think it's possible that if it's true that this happens more in the track and field world, that people volunteer or, or, or, or coach at a young age and stage, do you think it's because we, and we is very general, coaches, athletes, beginning coaches, maybe older coaches, think that it's easier to coach track and field than it is to

57:22coach football, baseball, basketball. I don't think it's easier to coach. No, no, no, no, no, no, I know, I know we don't. I know me and you know it's not easy. Right. I'm wondering if, as an 18 year old, when you said coach Johnson, I'll definitely come back because it's like, oh, and not even you, because you're 18, more of like, I don't know if you could put coach Johnson in spot and you, this is not your coach Johnson. This is coach Smith, coach Johnson, you know, a generic name. Do we think, oh, he's a good guy and whether you're good or not, that doesn't matter, but, you know, he, like he listens. So he's coachable. He could come back and do the same with our other young people, because it's not that hard. I think the, yes, and, yes, and no, I understand what you're saying. I think that it's more of the size of track teams and you always need more help. Yeah, okay, okay. I think it's easier to get into coaching because that makes sense. Hey, if, if you, like, I remember, you know, when I was at Higley,

58:24you know, we got up to like 120 in team size, which isn't really, I mean, with some of the schools around here, that's not a very big team. But when schools are, I mean, when schools only have six coaches on stipend, you know, if you have people that want to volunteer their time to help with younger kids and all, I think it's easier to get into because of that sense where hey, we need more eyes. We need more people that want to be here. I know that I think that part is true. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me, absolutely. And when, and when it comes to the team sport part of it, you know, I was, I coach girls basketball for six, five or six years. But I think that that part's a little different because, you know, they, they have two teams per coach, you know, or two coaches for teaming. Yeah. And it's like, okay, so you, you could ask ball, you look in door to get in, I guess, like you coach best, well, how many volunteer coaches that you have there and caveat because you could have had a lot and that's fine. How many got to run their own groups? Hey, yeah, yeah, your volunteer go, go run the point guards while I run the forwards.

59:27Never when I was, when I was at Higley, we had four paid coaches. When I was at Gilbert, we had, when I was at Gilbert, we had a different situation. We had, I think four paid coaches, two volunteers, but those, one of those volunteers had been there since the head coach got there. He was a good friend of his and, you know, one coach was there for one year. So I think it's more, like I've heard of the kid who graduates college comes back to his high school and, hey, take the sprinters. You're, you're now the spring coach, right? I don't know that I've ever heard. And again, I'm only in the trekking field world, but I don't know that I've heard of that kid who plays college football, comes back to his high school and, oh, yeah, now you're the linebacker coach. I've heard of them come back and be the assistant linebacker coach. And that does play. You made a really good point about the size and lack thereof full time coaches. That's, that's interesting to me because you're right. The player coach ratio for like basketball is ridiculous. And, yeah, and I, and I, you know, my bias says the athlete to coach relationship

1:00:31in like tennis and golf is less because they're, they're out. Like, I know tennis is like everybody's at one place, but golf, you know, they're in whole nine. I'm on whole one or whatever. So there's less coaching. That's a bias that could be some golf coach made. Hit me up in a dollar at me for that, but, uh, but that's interesting. It just, it just interests me. I have talked to on, on camera and obviously off camera with a lot of coaches that I'm like, dude, you're 23 24, it doesn't matter about the age. It's more about their experience. And you're the head spring coach or the distance. I'm like, you have no, you're not ready. It's crazy. Tell you're not responsible enough to run this program. You know, it's absolutely. It's amazing. Now they get there, you know, typically, but man, it just seems like we allow young inexperienced coaches more control earlier than other sports. It's what it feels. You know, I, when I, when I first started coaching and I, I've, I've told this to anyone, you know, a lot of people, anyone who's asked me this, but I remember

1:01:33if I, if I got all the control, I thought I wanted my first year coaching ever, I would have never come back. Yeah. So it's a bad thing. I'm like, yeah, yeah, don't ask for, you know, don't ask, don't want all the control. I promise you it's a good thing if the head coach is getting over your shoulder. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And by the way, I'm pointing thumbs, not fingers. Yeah. I was the assistant coach at high school. My very first job up in Chicago, the very next year, the head coach retired and I somehow, I was, I was still in college, I was 20, I don't even know if I was 21, it would have been my junior year of college. So yeah, no, I wasn't 21. And I convinced the, it was a Catholic school. So the father, I guess is what principal was, to make me the head coach. I was 20. I was two years older than my senior right, right. You know, and I'm like, like, now that I look back, I'm like, I don't think you made a very good decision, sir. Well, where you put me in charge of, that's crazy, dude. Crazy. But that's not uncommon in our sport and I just, just, just, just maybe think about it

1:02:37when we were talking about that. I think the part of it too is you just don't find a lot of track coaches. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just crazy though, because when you, in high school, if you had boys and girls together, where the most participated sport in the, in the, out of everybody, when in college and you had men and women together, where the most participated sport out of everybody. So you, you were more likely, when you, you go grocery shopping later on this week, you are more likely to run into someone who has participated in track and field in some former fashion than you are to run into someone who played football, basketball, but you're right. But we have, you know, we need more track and field code. I mean, there's lots of programs that have won for crying out there. All right. Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting. Okay. All right. So you're a young and even though you're out of college and you've had some work experience, work life experience, what was it like? Your first, if you can even remember the first day, but, you know, the first season of coaching, how did it go for you? You know, it was just like the young piece you were just talking about.

1:03:38I was 22. I mean, I wasn't much older than the kids that I was coaching, but I remember, just, I remember. And so back to my roommate at the time, I remember we, you know, he was like, hey, like I, we both, we both decided to help, both decided to help it Higley, which was, you know, one of the best to zoom in my life, but we both decided to help there. And I remember, I remember, I still have it, I should have, I should have had it ready to go. But I remember we planned our entire track season in like this pocket calendar. We planned everything. We thought we were going to be great coaches of all time. Yeah. Very excited. We planned it all. And then you quickly find out that planning on an entire track season never worked. What a fantastic rookie mistake. I love that. It was very quickly find out that it does not work. Yeah. You think like, oh, I'm 10 steps ahead here. I'm acting like a 30 year old coach doing this. Like, oh, man, and then you're like, oh, what a dodge wasted my time, which is the complete opposite from how I, from how I operated, you know, later in my career was, I'm driving

1:04:42to practice figuring out what we're going to do as well. Well, that might have been the other extreme though, David, somewhere in the middle where we actually needed to be. Yeah, somewhere in the middle, you know, I do love that you started on this far. Side, though, like we're going to do the whole for a year. It's like, well, you don't even know what the weather is going to be tomorrow. Yeah, I still, I still have it. And I just laugh at it. It's awesome. It's in my desk drawer. But it's cool. You catch it too. That's cool. Yeah, I remember being excited, you know, just ready to go. And like I said, you know, if the coach gave me all the power, I thought I wanted out and never come back. Yeah. Kind of the running joke for, you know, that entire year and, you know, back to, you know, my youth running is, you know, you spend so much time with these coaches and people. And, you know, and you want to make sure, you know, I mean, I had three coaches in three years for, you know, as a sprinter. So when these kids are, hey, are you coming back and you're like, oh, I don't know. We'll see. And, you know, that kind of deal. And, you know, you just, you, when you're not competing, you just fall in love with the challenge of, hey, can we beat the school down the road? Or, you know, can we get this kid to, you know, can we get this kid in the state?

1:05:46You know, can we win the state title as a team and, you know, that was kind of, you know, that, that, that part of it, that challenge is a lot of fun. And, when you're not competing, I mean, that's, that's all the competition you're going to get. And, it's, it's, it's, it's so, you know, rewarding when you see these kids who, you know, don't think that they're, you know, going to be a great sprinter one day or just out there because they want to t-shirt and you see them run a PR and how much it means to them. And, you know, I remember that from, from very early on, and it's like, hey, this is, this can be a lot of fun if we're, you know, if we're committed to doing it as committed as the kids are at least, you know? You had four different sprint coaches in high school and presumably all four had, it might not have been radically different, but had different ways of coaching players. You go to Mesa, I assume, coach had a different way of coaching sprinters. You've seen a lot of different ways of how you might coach sprinters. How did you figure out what your philosophy style was going to be? You know, I, I, I've faced a lot of my running off of Coach Jacobs at MCC, like we're going

1:06:53to show up every day and work hard. You know, there's nothing sexy about working out, but it's, that's, that's what we're going to, we're going to work hard every day. And if we can outwork the school down the road by doing the right stuff, then we're going to be successful. And it's kind of relaying that message to kids and, hey, it's not easy. We know it's not easy, but if we're in this together, if you're in this with your teammates, you know, it's going to, it's going to get easier. It's going to get better. You know, I, what did you do again, Devon, you're, you're giving me a lot of coach speak on that stuff. Yeah. Uh, it's okay. It's all right. That's my job to help you. You take the layers. We've got to get some layers here. Yeah. What did you do? Coaching education wise. Now, I, I take coaching education as two different buckets, formal and informal. Both are extremely important. Informal is, I called coach up at Mesa, my old coach and was like, hey, how do I? I'm struggling or four by four. A four meter guys aren't doing X, Y, Z. What would you do here? That kind of thing. Formal is our USATF level one level twos, UFT, CCCAs, Altis, you're out there. Yeah. Uh, what, what, what did you do at this time frame?

1:07:55You know, when I started, I did, when I started, I did nothing. I, I was young. I thought I knew everything and, uh, and especially when you, if you see success in doing nothing, not that, not that I saw any. I'm just, I'm just saying. But if you see that success when you're doing, you know, it's like, oh, it's really, you know, it's, oh, we can be, you know, we can, we can just keep doing the same thing every year and it's going to keep working. Um, but then you, you quickly realized that it doesn't work that way. Uh, every team is different. Every group is different. Um, and you can't do that. So I remember, uh, so as the years go on, I, early, I don't, I don't know that I reached out as much as I did later in my, or towards the middle of my career. Um, but I remember, uh, to, to fast forward a few years and we, we had some success and it's not that, you know, we needed to or didn't need to change anything. But I remember, so, uh, I coach it Higley for four years, I think, as a sprint coach, become the head coach at like 25ish somewhere around there.

1:08:56And I still kept coaching sprints, our distance coach was the former cross country coach. Um, and, uh, I remember having, I had a football kid who ended up running the mile at rider in New Jersey. Um, but I think I, I want to say I started training him around as a sophomore. He was a mile in high school. Um, but trying to, uh, figure out how he didn't like running the miles. Like that was kind of like, he's like, I hate distance running, but this is the only thing I'm good at. I was like, okay, well, you know, we'll figure it out. And I remember for my time running at basic community college that I thought if, I thought as a 400 meter runner in our 400 meter training group, I could run any event on the track. That was kind of my dumb brain of, I'm 18, 19, I'm in the best shape of my life. I think I can compete with anyone, but also a little bit of confidence thinking like, hey, we do work really hard. I don't see why I couldn't do this. Um, so, you know, we started, so that kid and Andrew started running with our 400 meter group. Um, and that's kind of where my, uh, I guess willingness to grow as a coach came from, like, reach starting to reach out to people.

1:10:06And hey, how can, how can we, how can I have kids from the distance group with my group and try to figure things out. And that's when, you know, when, hey, you can run our hard workouts with us, but on Tuesdays and Wednesday or Tuesdays and Thursdays, you know, whatever days of the week that is, you know, you're doing 30 minute runs, you're doing 40 minute, or whatever that is. Um, you know, reaching out to Jeff Messer and, you know, of a funny story about the community itself, but I remember. Uh, we had a girl who, from Higley, who is pretty good. Her name is Lindsey Simpson and she went to Woodbridge, the cross country meet in California. Um, and I think at that time I might have been coaching her. Her mom had reached out and she wanted to work with me over the summer before cross between the end of a track in the beginning of cross country. So we ended up working together. Anyway, she goes to Woodbridge. I think it was either her sophomore, her junior year. Uh, she goes to, she goes to Woodbridge. And I remember just looking at the results, and it was.

1:11:09I'm going to, I'm going to script the name of the high school, but it's the Buchanan high school, it's Buchanan high school, Clovis, the school that's really good. John, John, John. Yes, they go to, uh, NXR, NXN every year, they're one of the top schools in California, distance wise, every single year. But I remember seeing their name in the results and, uh, and just, I remember, I was like, I'm just going to reach out to this coach, see if he's got any, see if he's got any willingness to talk to some 26 year old coach, you know, knows nothing about the distance world. Uh, and I think his name was coach Weaver. I don't know if he's still there. If someone knows him and he sees this. Uh, you changed my life. But, uh, I remember reached out to him and he was super gracious with his time and he spent a couple hours with me on the phone. And he was like, you know, all the email you over some stuff and, uh, you know, he sent me over some charts and all this stuff, some workouts and all this stuff. And, um, I think that's one of the unique things about our world is that like,

1:12:13I, and I've talked about this with other, other sport coaches, but like, they don't, they're a little coy about how they go about sharing information. But for us, it's like, I can give you the way that we work out. You can give me the way that you work out. But that doesn't mean it's going to work for you. You know what I mean? It doesn't mean it's going to work for your kids, but, uh, you know, taking the time to learn from other coaches for me. I mean, I didn't do it when I was a young coach, but getting older, I, I think that was kind of the only way to, kind of, you know, become successful because there's so many different ways to do it. And you think that your way, you know, a lot of coaches early think that their way is the only way of doing it. And you find out very quickly that, you know, not every kid can, you know, kid, you have, uh, you know, of 49 second, 400 meter runner in high school, 53 and the kid there on 63. Those kids can't all do the same workouts. So you have to find a way to reach all of those kids at the same time under the same umbrella.

1:13:13Like, hey, what is going to work for everybody? Um, especially on a team of, you know, when you've got 80 sprinters that you're working out, you know, when you have those big, those large groups that track teams usually have. I love the humility, curiosity, hunger of seeing like, oh, it's a big cross country meet. What is this you can't end? They must be doing something right because there's a lot of them in the top 10 or 20 or whatever. And then to actually reach out that is like that to me is when I think about what a good track and field coaches, that to me is a hallmark of like, okay, you're good coach because what you're doing is is you're trying to learn. Something so that you can pass it through pass it through you to someone else. It's a very, this is one of the more selfless pursuits we have as a coach is I'm trying to learn as much as possible about XYZ event, not because I'm going to get better. I mean, I'll be smarter, I guess, but I'm not going to run a better mile if I go learn about the mile mine's done. Yeah, but Johnny and Susie might benefit from this.

1:14:19And so how do I, how do I learn it and then communicate it to them? So I love that my challenge to you, Devon is going to be go find that coach. It is a 2026 brother. There ain't no way you can't find them on the internet somewhere somehow. Yeah. And you tell, if it was Coach Weaver, if you go tell Coach Weaver, thank you because I think we have a lot of amazing coaches. I think of some of our teaching coaches like Bush, Exxonator and Vince Anderson, et cetera. And, you know, I don't want to be telling those people, thank you when I'm remembering them at their death. I want these people to know today the positive impact they make on other coaches because Coach Weaver's legacy is not only what he did at Buchanan and what other schools have been at. It's actually used it on his shoulder. Yeah, he doesn't know that that kid went to writer partly because you helped him there. He helped you to help him. So I just think that's going to be my challenge to you on that. I love that story. That is I just that to me is the epitome of like, oh, tell me a good coaching story.

1:15:21It ain't about the kid who went from six minutes to four minute 30. It's oh, another coach poured into me. And that helped me take that six minute kid to four 30 and a bunch of other kids to four 20 or whatever bubble. That to me is that is coaching purity in track and fields. I appreciate you sharing that. Okay, you're at Higley for five-ish years, I think we're going to go next. So I was at Higley for 10. I was there for I think so I was there for 10 years in total. I was there for six that I left and went to MCC for a year. We had a new athletic director coming into Higley. Coach Jacobs wanted me to come take over sprints for him, which I was totally on board with or at least I thought if you see this he's going to be subset. But I wanted to go coach coach there for a year and help out and I did that and it was a lot of fun. It's just a different it's a different group and I was part of that group once. So I told I know I get it. But it's it's kid to I don't want to lump them all together. But when you get when you get to college, you're I know everything.

1:16:26I don't need coaching. It's different, especially being at a junior college where it's you're trying to get to the next stop. You're not you're not going to be there for four years, obviously. So unless you're my one teammate, but if you're going to be there for that short amount of time and you're just trying you're trying to get out. And that's kind of the, you know, that's a tough part of junior college track and field and we ran well. Yeah, we we we ran well. We qualified for national is when I realized that I was not a junior college coach was when I had to go recruit kids. I'm I mean, I love talking to people, but I don't say where did you struggle? It's about. I'm not I'm not a I'm not a seller. I'm not a hey come to Mesa Community College. We're doing a lot of great things. I don't like talking to people like that. If I know people already, I'm fine with it. And then it's just it's just the way that like junior college track is just looked down on like it's for sure. I mean, hey, like, hey, where are you going to school next year? It's like, oh, I'm going to go try to go run it ASU.

1:17:27It's like, well, we race ASU work just as good as they are. Right. Let me tell you about it. You ain't going to ASU. Trust me. Well, I'm talking to you because I don't think you're good enough to go to wherever you think you're going. I think we'll give you a great opportunity to come here at school, you know, for free. You know, there's a if you're, you know, if you're a high academic kid, you know, we've got a chance to get you in the doors here for free, put some money in your pocket. And, you know, and give you a chance to go to that school in a couple of years. But that's when I kind of what's to realize as yeah, I was like, I was like, I don't I don't know that I'm cut out for this. And it's so funny because junior college, it always works out where so and so things are going here. They don't end up going and then they call you in three months and they're like, hey, I wonder if you still have spot on your team. And, you know, had I had I wrote it out like we probably would have been fine. Yeah, you're adaptable. You would have learned. Yeah, you think you think that you think that you have to go door to door recruiting these kids or school to school is as the reality of it.

1:18:27But you go to these schools and you recruit these kids to come and you might get two kids to say yes in April, but you might get 10 kids to say yes in July. So that's the so I just don't think I gave it enough time, but that was part of it. So yeah, so anyway, so I met I'm at MCC for a year and then it was there was a weird situation that happened to Higley with the coaches that took over after I left, but they didn't get along really well. I remember. I hope Andrew when I I'm going to send this to Andrew so he can hear the story, but it's it's just so funny. But so to the coaches got into a little bit of a verbal articulation of practice. I remember getting a call from Andrew like, you'll never guess what happened to practice today. We don't have a coach anymore. Okay, and then the coach that I left coach ventures she was so there I remember her telling me the same exact thing and I remember the new athletic director that that that that to go for he calls me and I had never talked to him before.

1:19:27Mr. Dilly, but he calls me and he's like, Hey, I don't know if you heard what happened, but we don't have a coach for the last three weeks of our season. And I'm wondering if you know if you'd be able to help out. Yeah, give give give some direction to whoever we get to take over. And I was and in Arizona, there was this thing called red for Ed where there was no school for like a few weeks. I feel like we're all the teachers were kind I think they might have been on strike or something. I don't know. It was a really weird deal, but there's no school. There's students weren't school. So so during that time, we would practice with Higley during the day and then or like in the morning, and then I would go back to MCC practice in the afternoon. So I had Higley for the last three, four weeks of the season. And kind of the previous coach was good, but there's there's there's a lot of this function, I guess, like the between like training groups and what they were doing at practice and favoritism and all this other stuff. And then I walked into it with three weeks before a state championship is about to happen.

1:20:28And you're like, hey, let's try to like corral this group and we've got really great athletes and great coaching. So we coach Ventures and I we kind of work together and put us, you know, put some kids in some different events and had a really, really good last month or so. And then so that happens. We go to state. I think our boys were tied for six. They're tied for seven in the state, which isn't a lot to write home about, but considering everything they had gone through the last, you know, months to three months. It's like, hey, you guys, you know, figured everything out in the last month and that was really great. And you know, you're so proud of them. And I remember so I end up leaving MCC and I remember the cross country coach at Higley. This is where the distance part comes in where I started coaching cross, but the distance coach at Higley decided to step down or retire or I think his son was getting into high school playing high school baseball. So he wanted to be able to go to baseball games and not deal with anything else. So I remember Mr. Dilly asking me about whether or not I wanted to come back and coach or not.

1:21:32And you know, I told him, I said, Hey, I'd love to come back. But if I'm coming back, I want the cross country job and the track and field job. And he said, so he's like, this is at the end of the year right around graduation. You know, I believe he told me like, Hey, like we'll talk in a couple days. Go through that process, get hired on as the cross country coach and the track coach. I kind of wear both worlds kind of collided of the sprint coach who is now coaching cross country who doesn't know what's on and trying to figure things out on the fly. What was your interest in coaching the cross country team? It was more of being. I'm a bit of a control freak when it comes to coaching. I think people who work with me would agree. I wanted to, I, the two, the two programs didn't work well together when I wasn't when I was there the first time. And that was kind of the bigger issue of, I, the two programs needed to be married or we were never going to be successful.

1:22:32That was kind of my outlook on it. And so when I took over as the cross country coach, the girls had coach coach Ventress who had previously coach cross country with another coach who went to take another teacher job in another school. I took over the boys cross country program. She took over the girls cross country program. And things worked out great. And we, the two coaches previously had left and we took over. But it was more of if we weren't, if the teams weren't, didn't work together in cohesion and, you know, we're never going to grow one program. If the other coaches aren't involved in all that stuff, there's more about like wanting to be the director of, you know, track and field and cross country as opposed to just like being the coach of one and supporting the other like I wanted to have my hands in both. And I thought that was a way for us to be most successful and it turned out that it was so. Where does your self describe control freak when it comes to coaching? Where does that come from?

1:23:36I have no idea. I think it's just I have a very particular way that I want things done and I learned that as I went through coaching. Like, hey, I want things done this way at this time. And, you know, it's, it's. You were like that on day one coaching. No, I think it was. I think it was just as you know, it definitely progressed, but well, I mean, maybe I was that way on day one. I mean, I was staying earlier that if I had all that control that I wanted when I first started, I wouldn't have been there. Maybe you were that, but you didn't exhibit it because there were a little bit. You're still worth it. Yeah, because I want. I can't tell these guys to go do XYZ and I have that control. Yeah, I think it was. I think I think that might be part of it. But also, I just, I know that I'm very particular and I know that what I believe or, I mean, confidence is everything. But I know that what I believe in is it works and or it worked, I guess, I don't, however you want to describe it. But I know that what I. If I think the coaches that I had to, I really wish I had an answer for you. I mean, it's, I think it's just that.

1:24:41If you believe in something, you have to believe in it fully or it's not going to work. And if we were, if the ship was going to go down burning and I was the reason I was fine taking that blame. But it was just, I just, I just like things done a certain way. I guess I wish I had a better answer for you. And you know, you've had a lot of success. It's, it's interesting. I typically push back when someone says, you know, we finished six or seventh and that wasn't anything to write home about. And I'm like, bro, you know, how many teams would have died to be six or seventh? Come on now. But you've, you've had a lot of success in your coaching. How much, like if you were to put like a percentage of that was because you were a control freak air quotes there. I would, it probably have to be a lot, honestly. I mean, I, I've worked with a lot of great coaches too. So I don't want to take all the credit, but I know that it's. And you have so many moving parts. If there's no structure, like that's kind of where. You know, when you have its team of 40 kids, if you're just letting kids come in and out of practice and skip reps and skip workouts.

1:25:46And you know, if there's no, if there's no direction for these kids, when you have that many, you know, it's, it's not going to work. And I think that that's kind of, you know, I, I had the so many coaches in so many years when I was in high school. I get to MCC where I have the same coaches for two years. And you see just kind of with coach Jacobs. I mean, he was there for almost 40 years. So when he's there and he's in charge, I mean, they were just a factory of, you know, of junior college athletes that were sending kids to division one school division two schools to the Olympics and all that stuff. And I think that the structure part of it is something that. And maybe the pro like at Higley that was kind of missing. I don't, I'm not speaking down on what was happening, but I just, there's just so many moving parts and I think that. When you get to, when you get to that point and if, if everyone is working together and there's just one, if you can, I know for me, like it was kind of like, hey, if I'm at the top of the coaching pyramid, I need to do whatever I can to make.

1:26:54My assistance lives easier. And if I'm in control of everything else where you guys don't have to make those decisions, I'm just making the decisions and your guys are just coaching your events. And if that's going to be the best way for us to be successful, then that's great. But it's just, there's just a lot of, I mean, you know how this is, but when you've got a team of 120 kids, I mean, it's not, you know, you need to. Less than the voices and, you know, and support your support your, your assistant coaches to empower them, right, to be able to run their own groups and, you know, work together as a team. And if the coaches can work as a team and so can the kids and they kind of see all that stuff and it works out for everyone. When's a time that being a control freak ever kind of bitching the butt? Oh, man, where do I start? And another hour to the show boys and girls. I don't, you know, I don't know. I mean, I think that every, every road runs its course or whatever that saying is, but I mean, it's, it's, it's more of just not biting me in the butt.

1:27:57But I mean, and I, and I learned this as I, as I went on, but like, you just can't go about it that way because it just rubs a lot of people the wrong way. You learn a lot of relationships because you're just so not demanding, but I mean, you're demanding and more than you need to be and, you know, and not, and you, you think you're doing, you know, stuff, right? And not that you're doing anything wrong, but you think that you're making lives easier for people and, you know, and it's not that you're not making lives easier. And it just kind of gets in the way of, hey, you know, it's of the relationships you're having with your coaches because of, you know, everything going on and how much you're expecting event and of yourself. And that part kind of kind of gets, gets cloudy at times, but I mean, that's, that would be probably the best example of it is just being too demanding and all that other stuff because you just, you just get your eyes on like, hey, we're like right there, we need the, you know, we're right there to winning a team title or right there to having the state champion athlete or,

1:29:08you know, breaking these records at our school and, you know, that part is, it's challenging to see in the moment because you think that you're doing everything right by the kids and by your staff and all that stuff and, you know, it makes, it does make it difficult, but, you know, one, one specific moment I don't think I have won, honestly. Okay, so what happens after Higley? So I was at Higley for a while, you know, we, we, we had a lot of success, we had a lot of great kids and, you know, we were getting to a point where I knew I was getting close to leaving, so I knew my son was never going to go to Higley High School. Just because of where he grew up playing basketball was down the road and wanting to play with his friends and so I knew that I knew that with the open enrollment thing here in Arizona kids can go wherever they want. It's crazy. My son was always, yeah, it really is and it's hurting a lot of schools and schools are shutting down because that's all there's, that's a whole little conversation though, but I knew that my son was going to go to another high school.

1:30:14So I knew that eventually that was going to be my path was to also leaving, so I ended up at Gilbert High School, which is not too far down the road, but ended up at Gilbert took over for Mark Sullivan, great guy. He was at Gilbert for about 20 years, he was getting ready to retire, funny enough, my last year at Higley, they knew that he was getting knee replacement surgery and we were at Gilbert High School for my son's basketball practice and their athletic director was in the gym. And my son's basketball coach introduced the two of us and he was like telling me about Mark situation like, yeah, I knew about that and you know, we were kind of talking, he was like, what would be your interest level on coming over to Gilbert right now. And I was like, this is, this is like right around Thanksgiving. We have fall break here, which is in October and it's two weeks off of school in the fall because we start school, so because we start school like in middle to end of July. Oh wow. So during fall break. Yeah, I'm doing an area zone. Man, that's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy.

1:31:14So we were 110 degree heat is causing out to make some decisions here now. Come on. That's crazy. Do I? Yeah. So we break. Yeah. You can go to any school. This is nuts. Oh man. Yeah, it's a wild, it's the Wild West, but we're, I was talking with, I was talking with the athletic director and he was kind of asking my interest of, you know, how, if I'd want to come over, come over that year and I was like, man, I don't know. And I remember, I remember thinking about it and talking with my son's basketball coach about it and thinking like, man, I would love to, but I just don't know that the timing's right. Like, I've got a great group. I don't just want to leave them high and dry. So I remember finishing out the year at Higley. I'm resigning at the end of the year. And I remember the first phone call I made was to my son's basketball coach. Just like, hey, I'm no longer here. You know, I'd love to. He's like, I don't know what I'm doing next year. And he's like, well, I'm calling my athletic director right now. You're going to talk to him and you're going to come over here. And I was like, okay, like we'll see. So I was like, he has to like me too.

1:32:15This isn't your decision. Right. You ain't the eight. Yeah, right. So anyway, so I think he calls me like the next day or the end or the beginning of the next weekend. He's like, hey, you know, we'd love to have you here. I've heard great things about you. Mark is, he's officially retired as the coach. He's going to teach one more year, but he's done, he's done coaching here. So I, we, I, I interview with him with Mr. Fikiti, great guy. I owe a lot to him. And I remember this is, this is not a funny story, but it's funny stories. So I'd gone all summer without like officially applying. I was in then, but he knew that I was friends with some of the other coaches on campus already. So my good friend who is the basketball coach kept telling me, he's like, hey, like, the athletic director's getting mad at me because you're not officially applying. So I need you to apply and get like, get your application so they can officially hire you.

1:33:16So I get officially hired and it's about, it's around July. I think I was just coming back into town. There's a pre sports, like back to school meeting and, you know, I was there for the track and field program and our cross and kind of back to the Higley thing where both programs needed to work together. And I know the coaches because they're just right down the road and we all kind of compete in the same meets. You see everyone all this, all the same weekends. But we, so we go to the meeting and I meet with the cross country coaches like, hey, I'm taking over now and I had known there was some, some ruffling of the feathers between the two programs previously. So I met with the cross country where I was like, hey, like I'm here, I took over for Mark. He says he's going to help still, which is great. I'm happy that he's going to be here because I'd be lost without him. But if you guys need anything for me, like, let me know. And there wasn't a ton of involvement between tracking cross country.

1:34:18So, you're like, okay, yeah, like, let me know whatever. You know, we'd love to have your help. And then I kind of heard nothing from them for a few months. And I told Mr. Fikiti, our athletic director, I said, hey, like I, because he asked these like, are you planning on helping with cross country at all? I said, you know, I entered, I met with the two coaches. If they, I told them if they needed anything, let me know, like, I'd love to help out, like, I don't need to be paid for it. But if the two programs don't work together, like, we're not going to be successful. And unfortunately, those two coaches had some stuff come up and didn't end up coaching that cross country season at all. And so I remember Coach Fikiti calling me one day, I was like, hey, I was wondering if you're still interested in helping with cross country. And I just thought they needed help for, you know, for some period of time or whatever. And I was like, yeah, sure, he was like, yeah, could you stop by the school today?

1:35:18So I ended up going by the school, talking with him. And he's like, yeah, you're our new cross country coach. I left, I left Higley because I was coaching too much to come to Gilbert just to find out that I'm coaching the same amount that I was coaching before. I thought this transition was going to be a little smoother. So I did a, I did cross country and travel at Gilbert for two years. For two years and it was, it was a really, it was a different experience. It was a good experience. You learn, you try to take everything that you can from each experience and to make, you know, future experiences better. So it's, yeah, it was, it was really interesting how that all worked out. Because you have the open enrollment, like do kids from Higley transfer to Gilbert? That's, that's possible. That does happen in the track world. It's not as common, but I mean, there's kids from. Funny enough, there's a kid from the junior high that what that was a, that was supposed to go to Higley that ended up coming to Gilbert for a different sport.

1:36:21But yeah, that's all really common here because you can go wherever you want. Like my, my son is going to go to a high school where he's not in the district right now. So that, but it's, you know, it's. Mr. Dilly at Higley explain this to me the best and there's a lot of people that don't agree with him or agree with it. But if you're a parent or an athlete, it makes sense. If kids can choose schools for academic reasons, why can't they choose and for athletic reasons? And it's like, you know, that makes, I mean, if that's, that makes a ton of sense. If you're trying to give you a kid the best opportunity to do X, Y, or Z, then give them that best opportunity. I don't understand why, you know, there's, there's families here with kids at multiple different schools because they have better this or that than, you know, the school that they would be going to originally. Probably more on that line because like when people talk about all the transfer portal stuff in the college, I'm like, who cares? Like no one, no one cares about the chemistry student who transfers.

1:37:21No one cares about the math. Right. Yeah. The math. Exactly what he major. Now, I also understand that the math professor doesn't get fired because he doesn't have, you know, 10 4.0s on his roster. Right. Because they transferred MIT or whatever. So I have a lot of empathy for coaches in that respect for all sports, not just track here, but you know, for all sports. But that also makes me, you know, part of my belief is I don't think coaches should be fired based on how good or bad their team is as well. To a degree. I mean, obviously it is sports. I was winning, but I don't think like who was was was the LSU football coach just fired. I know they didn't have a good season, but like really should even fired for his record. Like they were still good. Like, what, you know, it seems kind of crazy, but anyway, but yeah, that's that's interesting. Okay. So it's interesting. You mentioned your son. You mentioned the previous cross country coach who wanted to step away from coaching because his son was getting ready to go to high school and was a baseball player. That's a lot of games and things like that. Where are you today with coaching and fatherhood and all that kind of good stuff?

1:38:24So after my two years at Gilbert, I, so I'm no longer coaching, which is, which is, which is fine. I'm happy with where I'm at and all that stuff. But the story that is I, after our season had ended, I remember I was heading to my best friends wedding. And I was sitting in the gate at the airport, like, contemplating on kind of my plan going forward. And I remember I emailed my athletic director. It's like, hey, you know, I'm kind of thinking that, you know, I'm going to step away from coaching. It's not what it was anymore. It's, it's not what it was what it used to be. I think that, you know, when I've had this conversation, I put this on Twitter and social media when I, when I, when I, when I made this decision, but, you know, it's, I think coded changed a lot of things about how schools and coaching kind of works now. And I remember telling them, I was like, hey, I don't think that this is for me anymore.

1:39:24I, it's, it's getting harder and harder. And, you know, you try to hold kids accountable and do what you think is right. And everyone kind of has their own opinions of he's being too mean to the kids or this or that. And I, if that was what it was, you know, that was never obviously the intent. But it's, hey, I was coached to be held accountable to, you know, come to practice, work hard, be a great teammate, you know, set, try, you know, try to, try to come here and set yourself up for, you know, the rest of your life. Does that mean you're going to be running a Olympics? No, but if you can learn something about how you're going to go about the rest of your life from coming to practice every day. Being with people coming to, you know, you know, trying to, trying to get all these people to, you know, to, to accomplish a common goal. Like that is, that is, that is the ultimate goal, right? So I remember emailing him and telling him, you know, I'm thinking about stepping away. Hey, while I was at the gate, about to board an airplane. And I remember, I was like, I'll talk to you and I'm back and I'll talk to you and I get back to town.

1:40:24I was gone for four days. I let that email sit or I send to him and I didn't talk to my athletic director and it's, we didn't talk. I didn't talk to him for about four weeks because I wanted to make sure that I knew that I was making the right decision. You sent the email, but then wanted to make sure that the right email to send. Yeah, maybe a different order, but okay, okay. So anyway, we ended up talking after I sent the email and we were, he was like, you know, just take your time. I, you know, I don't want you to make a decision. You don't want to make or, you know, we both saw I'd eye on that. I remember I was getting ready to go out of town. I went into the school to go talk to him and he was out of town for visiting his family. And then I was talking with our athletic secretary and she was like, I heard about, you know, that you're thinking about stepping away and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, yeah, I don't know. I think I think I'm ready. I was here to turn my keys in, but, you know, he's not here.

1:41:24So we'll come back when he ever is. And this was like a week later. He's like, oh, he's coming back on like the 13th. I'm going out of town the 14th. So I ended up showing up to him and I, we know we were talking and, and, uh, just sounds like I, you know, I, for a lot of coaches, I, as, as good as there. I know for me specifically, but as much time as you think you're making for your kids, you're just not. I mean, I wasn't missing. I didn't say your kids, because we call our athletes, our kids. Are you talking about your athletes? My, my own, your biological child. Okay. My biological child. Yes. Uh, like you, you, you plan on all your, I know for me selfishly, like, and it was a joke with me and my friends within the state that also coach, but like a lot of them hosting meats on Saturdays. And I would tell them, like, we don't do Saturdays. My son has basketball. We don't do Saturdays. And, you know, you try to arrange your practice schedule the same way as like, hey, we need to be done by this time. So I need, need to get home, get my son, get to practice and all this other stuff.

1:42:26And you don't realize it in the moment because you think you're making enough time, but like, you know, I was spending all my time with my son in the car. Like, you know, we're not, you know, at word, we're not, we're not sitting down at the dinner table. We're not watching basketball games. We're not doing going to the movies and doing other fun stuff because that time's being taken up by, you know, by, by track meets and practices and all this other stuff. So, you know, you try to, you try to arrange your schedule to make it work and to get to basketball games and soccer games and all this stuff. And, you know, you miss one or two and you're like, oh, I only miss one. But then you look back and it's like, well, shoot, that's one less game. I'll get to see for the rest of, you know, his career. So, so that was kind of part of it. And, you know, I knew that once he got to high school, I don't know that I wanted to be coaching anymore. Kind of the original plan of when I went to Gilbert was to be coaching there while he was there. But, I mean, when you're, I mean, those seasons are so long and I mean, the way we did things at Higley, we were training 44, 46 weeks out of the year.

1:43:30And it's like, that takes a lot of time and it's very time consuming. And, you know, when he's about to start the most important, you know, journey of his life of being a high school student, a high school athlete, you know, if his, you know, he wants to chase dreams of going on to play college sports. And, you know, for me to, I guess step away was, was the right decision. I, I don't think I made the wrong one. But it's just you, you lose sight of kind of, you know, what you're doing and how much free time you have and who you're spending it with all the time. And when you're just getting the short end of the stick with, you know, some of the people in the sports and parents and the schedule and all that stuff, you know, it makes it tough and you kind of just sit back and like, is it worth it? That's like, if I'm, spend, if I'm missing time on the person who I love the most for something that, you know, a lot of coaches are taken for granted because parents just think in schools and other, you know, that coaches are just supposed to be there, you know, it's, that's, that's kind of, you know, the, not the unfortunate part, but that's just kind of how it's looked over.

1:44:44You know, I saw something on social media the other day, but it's like coaches were once looked at as teachers and doctors and lawyers and these people who are like making differences in young people's lives. And I think now it's more of just like a, if you're not getting my child to the next level or if he's not getting the same opportunity that, you know, that so and so is getting them like, hey, we're going to tell some people about it and, you know, whether or not that that's the right way or the wrong way to go about it. You know, it's just, it's just changed a lot and, you know, when I made that decision step away, you know, it's kind of, I was kind of part of it. I wonder about that. I think having a, having a child changes your perspective on that a lot as well, which, you know, it changes your perspective on a lot of things, right, you know, you, you think about what you thought was important back in the day, then you had your son, it was like, oh, it stopped. Don't matter. Yes, matters, you know, changes. What, so I understand and I think, you know, when, when people say, you know, I'm sitting in a very unique position for people who choose to be coaches today, right?

1:45:47So I used to coach as a 10 year coach, Coach high school, college, as you see all that kind of stuff. And now, you know, my life and passion is centered around being an advocate for track and field coaches, which means sometimes you got to have difficult coaches with the people who choose to be difficult conversations with the people who choose to be track coaches, because you're in it and I'm not. So I get to see things in a different perspective. So on one hand, you know, when people say, I, you know, coaches that it's different today than it is yesterday. Well, certainly that's true. Just, you know, coaching in 2026 is definitely different than it was in 2016, just like coaching in 1986 was different than coaching in 1936, by the way. So, so they definitely have their life's life is different today than it was in 2016, right? So, so that all kind of makes sense on things. And then, you know, I think about coaches who are 60, 70, 80 years old right now still coaching. I'm like, well, man, they, they made it through and they're doing fine. You know, they're, they got some priorities going there. The aspect that interest me the most and not as is how different coaching is necessarily is or is not today.

1:46:51It's more about the family aspect because I do think that's important in regards to, you know, it's not an uncommon statement for a coach to say, oh, I coach other people's kids or I see other people's kids more than I see my own, right? And, you know, you, you have some memories yourself of being an athlete and, you know, I didn't hear you say either your mom or dad was a coach for you. So, they were, I must say, typically home when you got home, not knowing the whole family. Right. You know, you'd have dinner with maybe one or both or, you know, some aspect and you got to talk to about how practice suck today and, you know, Johnny dropped the baton when we were doing exchange, you know, stories, just, you know, and it might have been hard as a, you know, as a dad of a 15, yeah, 15 year old, I get this now for sure. It might have been hard for you as a 15, 16 year old kid to see what a special time that was your parents, hopefully understood that. But, but now as an adult and definitely as a father, it's like, man, I, I look back, finally, when I got to tell my parents about X, Y, and Z, and, you know, they got to partake and they were there, by the way, not at practice coaching other kids, my age, by the way, what the frick, why am I not important?

1:48:06There's a lot of, you know, being a parent and being a coach can have a lot of interesting aspects to it and probably makes it not necessarily harder. I mean, probably is harder, I guess, if then if you were just not just, if you were a single, you know, no, no, no children, but definitely makes it like you have to be more intentional with something. Yeah, no, I mean, certainly, plenty of coaches are great fathers and mothers, you know, in coach, you know, they coach full time and all that kind of stuff. It's interesting, me though, you know, coaching is a very passionate thing, right? You expressed a lot of passion and a lot of, you know, working with kids, I love that story about that. That, excuse me, drop down to your quarter mile group to, yeah, to train that so cool. Love that, that's passion. That's, you know, you could have easily said, oh, stay with them. I know you don't like doing the miles, but guess what? This is a hard sport. You got to be doing the, you know, miles right over it. Yeah, I love all that.

1:49:06And for you to set that aside for your son, that's a big deal. Like to me, that's a big bravo, honestly, because you know, something I said before we hit record today. And I said it before in the podcast and I truly mean it, you know, I like having, I've done this exercise. Someone did this with me. I like having people like on a piece of paper write down all the roles or titles that you have, right? So for you, Devon, I know you're a son. I know you're a father. Are you an only child or did you have siblings? No, I have siblings have a brother and a sister. That's right. I thought I'm every time you're a brother. You are a neighbor. Someone lives next door to you. I'm going to say you were a coach. Coach is a title. Maybe you go to church, maybe you're a deacon, but maybe you're a church. Oh, there's a lot of, I mean, you could probably come up with 20 different titles, right? And that's interesting to rank those titles. And it's sometimes it's harder, right?

1:50:06Like how do I rank fatherhood over being a son? Like those are two very important. I love my parents and I love my child. So maybe you can even group some of those. But it's important to realize what are the more important titles. Because some of us, as coaches, think that coach, that title. It's a very precious title. You nailed it when, you know, that thing on social media said, you know, we used to be looked at like doctors and, you know, clergy and like, oh, you're a coach, you know, that's, that's reverence. And it does still, even today, have reverence. That's why, that's why more coaches are in the news because that title of coach holds so much importance, right? You're, you're counted. This is generally not in the news, right? But your coaches, right? But even. That's what's so funny about it. I mean, when you, I mean, I still see my coaches today and still refer to him as coach. I mean, that's, I was about to say, go back earlier when you mentioned. Yes. Former coaches of yours. Your face lit up. Yeah. Even today, when I think about some of the coaches that I had, you know, I think about one of the influential coaches.

1:51:06I had Bob Lambert. I'm like, man, thank God that dude was in my life. I am not who I am or where I am today without a Bob Lambert. I bet you could say the same about. Oh, sure. Right. Right. Right. So even with that reverence, I still believe in there's no bigger cheerleader of track and field coaches than me for current out loud. That's you. I still think coach might be your fourth most important title. Yeah. And father, son, maybe brother, et cetera. And sometimes we like to, we, we make poor decisions by thinking that coach is number one for us. Yeah. My profession. I love this aspect of stepping away from coaching to spend more time. It'd be more influential in your son's life. You know, hey, guess what? Yeah. When he graduates in whatever many years, even if he goes to college and you're going to be heavily involved there in 10 years from now, Devon, you can still go coach track and field, but you are not going to be able to replace this high school time for him. Right.

1:52:06Every, every, every, every time he plays basketball now, it's one less game that he's going to be playing. You are in a finite schedule. We don't know what that is. Is that a thousand games or 500 games, but you're right. Everyone is take it off. I can't go back. I miss it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what is this as we stare 2026 season in the face. It's here. Is this going to be your first season not coaching or 25 or 24? Where are we at on that? This, this is going to be, uh, I just finished my first cross country season of not coaching. So no, there was no 5 a.m. Practices last night. Yeah. Yeah. And then, and then, uh, this will be my first spring not coaching. So you coach track in 2025? Yes. I coach last spring. Yes. Okay. When we're recording this, it's February. You might be listening to this in March or April or because podcasts live forever. You might be listening to this in 20 or 20 or 2036 for a while. I know. I'll be sure to boost the numbers for you. Yeah, thanks.

1:53:06I'll need a lot of listeners in 2036. That's for sure. You are in its February. So boy, here's on a track is, uh, if you have a track, a couple weeks away. Yeah. From, from first day of practice. I'm going to ask this to you as if you were a meth addict. I'm rewatching Breaking Bad. My wife and I, we love that show. It's our third time. I love it. Yeah. I'm going to ask this as if you were a meth addict in your recovery, meaning if someone would have put meth in front of you, put that blue meth, I love that. You would be a little, uh, I'm strong. I don't need it. Push it away. Or you would break down and do whatever you do with meth. Yeah. How are you handling track season is right there in front of you? You, you, you've probably got someone that called or emailed you and said, Hey, uh, would you be, would you help my daughter? How would you? Hey, I'm struggling with that. You know, I, I haven't coached in 21. Yeah. 20 plus years and I still, I literally literally no joke. I showed to you, former athlete of my de-cathlete at Mississippi State,

1:54:06texted me videos of his son saying, hey, first time doing hurdles practice. What do you think? And I'm like, brother, I haven't coached in 20 years. You know, they say, you know, I've forgotten more about coaching than you. Yeah, I have because it's been 20, I know nothing. I don't know how to coach. Right. I love that, by the way, one of my favorite people in the whole world. I love that he trusts me. But I haven't coached 20 years. So it's easy for me to go, bro, I don't know, ask your local coach. But you, it's like, bro, this is fresh. I'm still. I'm fresh. Yeah. You got your day 100 coin. If we keep on with that. Yeah. How are you handling that today, my friend? Uh, you know, I'm, I'm doing great. When I, I remember when I first stepped down, I told one of my son's friends, I was like, hey, I stepped down. He's like, good for you. I know it's been, you know, a long, a long career, I guess of doing that and how, and how time consuming it is. Because his daughter went to a school of one of my friends who coaches there. And she ran for him. So we were talking. And then I saw him at a game a couple of weeks ago. And he said, I know the seasons are down the corner. Are you coaching anywhere? I said, I was like, no, I'm not.

1:55:06I'm not doing anything. Um, I do have, I did for it. I did. This recently came up with a lot of things. I did. I said, I was like, no, I'm not. I'm not doing anything. Um, I do have. I did for it. I did. This recently came up. I do have an agreement to help one of my friends with four by one exchanges is to stay at his Airbnb in Ohio. Shout out, David. Uh, but. I told him I would help him out. And he's helping me out with a discount on his Airbnb. So it all works out. Uh, but. Uh, no, I'm doing great. Uh, in the fall, I worked. Nike Desert Twilight with that school that hosts that good friends. Um, they're also the crew that hosts NXR Southwest. Um, so I, I'm still, I still try to be involved in around. I still get to see my buddies to do coaching. So I did that in the fall, uh, during the spring. I'm going to help it, uh, help it. Um, one of my friends, uh, the school that my friends daughter went to, uh, they host a couple of meets a year that are pretty big. Um, you know, I saw him at NXR and, and Twilight. And he said, you know, if you want to help out in the spring, you know, let me know.

1:56:08We'd love to have your help, love to have you around. Uh, you know, we'll feed you in the coach's hospitality room, which is never a bad deal. Yes. Um, so. So, you know, I, I'll still be around. And I still love the sport. I mean, I'm, I'm. But I'm doing. So you're not doing. You're not doing. You're not doing the blue meth, but you're doing a little bit of weed. They call that a gateway truck. Yeah. Yeah. We're just helping. We're just helping. We're not doing. Yeah. I'm not. I'm not doing. I'm not coaching. I'm just helping. Yeah. I'm just showing. I'm just around. I'm watching meets. I'm doing that stuff. I'm doing the fun stuff. Not the hard stuff. It tells me we're going to have an update in. No, no, no. We're not. Oh, yeah, we're not. I'm not going to relapse. No update. There's. I'm not. I don't. I don't. There's going to be no update. I don't. I promise that for sure. I don't think. And maybe I'm doing a this justice to the profession. I've ever used such a long and hardcore drug analogy for this.

1:57:10So. Hey, that's one of the greatest shows of all time. It is. It's our third. It's our third. You know, some people binge for the second time. They make sense. This is our third one. And we're. And we're. And we took along a long enough time that we don't remember a lot of this. It's. It's amazing. Well, but. So let's say in the topic. But let's maybe get rid of the math here. Yeah. Just finished or are finishing up basketball season, did you get to watch more basketball games of your son this season than ever? I feel like I did. Oh, good for you. I mean, it's. It's not even it's, it wasn't the basketball game part. It's just, it's the time part of it. It's not the racing from game to meet or meet to game. And it's, you know, being able to see him too and from practice and to. Yeah. to be present. Right, yeah, it's, I don't have my mind going in a bunch of different directions. Right, right, right. That makes sense. What for my form line up? Am I going to run this week? Yeah, yeah, I got, oh, you had an assist. That's amazing. I love that. What do I need to do for this entries for this meet? Yeah, be impressive. I remember, I mean,

1:58:12there's, there are so many times when, you know, uh, you know, I'm starting the day to meet. I'm leaving to go to a basketball game coming back to that meet there all night, maybe going back or, you know, the next day. And it's just, it's, it's all over the place. And, you know, there's so many, uh, you know, opportunities for these young kids and kids in high school, too, to compete. And you're trying to do best by your athletes and do best by your own kids. And, uh, you know, I can't tell you how many I'd say I'm not missing games is never great, but I don't think I've missed a ton in the coaching time. But, um, you know, trying to make sure that it's, and like you said, it's, you know, you're spending more time with your athletes and your own kids and trying to make your athletes feel like they are your kids, you know, like you do love and care about them and want them to be successful, which you do. And, you know, you want to be there for them. And thank God, my son had, you know, has a good head on his shoulders

1:59:12and understands that understood that, you know, dad coaches, dad coaches a lot of different kids and helping them get to, you know, reach their goals and their potential, you know, that's part of my job. And, um, you know, trying not to miss out on his stuff while doing the other stuff. And, but now it's like you said, it's being present, it's being able to not worry about practice plans or bus schedules or paperwork and all that stuff. And, you know, getting, you know, getting text messages and phone calls at dinner time when we're trying to, you know, get ready for the next day. And it's, it's that stuff. It's what what people don't understand is, you know, coaching is not just a three to five. It's not a during the school day in practice or the meat day. It's all day. I mean, it's, you know, it's, you're you're coaching all the time. It's hard to shut it off. Yeah. You know, you're always thinking about it, you know, people, you try to stay available for people on the, in the program that need to talk to you, whether that's coaches, parents, kids, you know, whatever that is. But it's, it's tough. And to be able

2:00:17to set that aside and, you know, be present and not have to worry about that little stuff, you know, it's made all the difference. And, you know, it's as fun as it is, it's also incredibly stressful. Yeah. So I mean, it's, if you're able to, you know, find that happiness or release valve or we know whatever that is to, um, to step away and give yourself some time. I mean, I would encourage everyone to do that because it's, it's made, it's made all the difference for me. I'll tell you that. Alright, Devon. So last question. And I want you to take a beat before you answer this. Any regrets, my friend? Any regrets? Uh, I don't think regret is the right word. I mean, I know that everyone's kind of had some relationships that went with other coaches or people or, uh, you know, that didn't always, you know, go as planned or the way you wish they did. But I mean, I think everyone's got those. I mean, I've, I've got a few, um, but I mean, I, as, as far as

2:01:17coaching goes and, you know, all that stuff, I don't think so. I, I really enjoyed my time doing it. Uh, there's no saying that I won't be doing it again in 10 years. But, you know, I, I really, I enjoyed my time doing it. I love doing it. Um, it was a great time. Uh, you know, there's some, like, I think everyone has relationships that they, you know, wish that they, you look better or, you know, look back on as man, we could have done something special if this went differently or, you know, other stuff. But I, I think that, I think that for the most part, I, I'm very happy with what I've done and what I've accomplished, the kids that I've coached, the coaches I worked with, um, all that stuff. And, you know, you know, uh, I, I, I can't, I can't complain. Honestly, I had a great time doing it. I was able to work with a lot of great people. Um, one of my, I, I, I, I can't think of any off the top of my head. One of my favorite quotes is from one of my favorite, uh, artists. You're going to laugh, Devon. Uh, you're, so you're, you're younger than I am. So you might not even know who this person

2:02:19is. Do you know who Vanilla ice is? Yes. Yeah. Okay. I'm not that, I'm not that yet on. Yeah. I'm younger than you, but not that young. Yeah. Well, thanks for throwing that on. Uh, my friend Vanilla ice has a statement. Uh, it says, uh, you are, we are who we are because of who we've been. And, you know, I take that to mean, you know, the statement that I've made here on the podcast, and I truly believe, you know, as I get older, I've turned into 50 this year, Devon. So I'm older. Uh, as, uh, as I'm getting older, I realize that, you know, where I believe everybody is where they are supposed to be right now. Now that doesn't mean that it's a great spot or it's a permanent spot. But relationships that you've had, that we've had, that went south, went sour, uh, relationships that went positive. It's easy for us to look back. I've used that analogy of the, uh, forks in the road. It's easy to look back and be like, you know, I know I went this way, but man, if I don't want this way, I would have all these riches in my career. Right. We forget that the negative could also happen.

2:03:22You know, that, oh, I, this, I find it made me find a state with this person instead of whatever bomb onsite. Well, you couldn't be dead, honestly. You know, or you could, uh, be in a miserable career because you're locked in, blah, blah, blah, these kind of things. So we forget about that. So I think, you know, your experiences, uh, that you've had up into today is exactly what, uh, should have been and, and thank God they did happen because they molded you and made you who you are today. And that has made the, that has been part of the positive impact that you've made on young people, my friend. I think you should sit back and look at what you did in a, in a relatively short career. Let's, let's be honest here. You're a young, uh, but you've had a really big impact on young people around just like, uh, coach, you can't even had on you. You've had that impact on, on other athletes and other coaches, I imagine as well. And what's awesome is because you are at such a, a young age and stage compared to me, um, you know, tend to a lot of times when I get coaches around your age and experience, you

2:04:24know, they, if, um, if we were to think about as a 400 meter race, you're familiar with that. We tend to things like, yeah, you know, I'm probably at the 300 meter mark of my life. You know, I've done a lot, et cetera, et cetera. Here's the beautiful part. My friend, you are barely probably just past the 100 meter mark of the 400. Right. I know it's easy to think like, Oh, man, I'm, I'm on the downs. I'm all crap, especially with today's technologies we're making with health and stuff. You ain't even halfway through my friend. All right. Right. And I love that. That's exciting for me to see, uh, on the sidelines, to see a guy like you in the life that you're building. You're, you're at the very, uh, beginning stages of having, uh, an unbelievable, fruitful aspect with your own son, your own child here. You've, you've had a great positive influence up to this point. But dude, it's about to, I got really feel like it's about to explode what you're going to be able to, to see and enjoy and impart, uh, on him. Uh, I think it's going to be, I think, I think

2:05:27you're going to look back when you do get to that 300 meter mark. I'm like, man, thank God. I had that time and I have that time. I think it's going to make that, yeah, I hope so. I think so. I don't know. I don't hope. I know so, brother. I really do. So, um, and I really, really do appreciate Devon, you know, I think, I don't know, it's hard, you know, I'm getting old. Uh, so my memory is slipping a little bit, uh, and after doing 350 plus episodes, it may be I get a little bit of grace. If not, you know, remember everything about every, uh, interview. But I think this might be the first coach we've had that's not coaching currently. Uh, and when we, we, we talk to each other, uh, you're, you knew you're going to be a first of something, right? Uh, but I, what I, the reason why, you know, you know, I talked about, well, should we continue on? Should we have this interview? And I told you that, you know, I think it's important for our coaches, for our people that choose to be track coaches, to see, uh, a bunch of different aspects in life, to see this that maybe, and this sounds crazy coming from the guy who loves

2:06:27track coaches, to say that maybe an avenue for you listener who is a coach that maybe you need to stop coaching. Now, I don't take that lightly because of, but again, remember, I think, I think coach might be the fourth most important aspect, uh, parenthood, childhood, uh, sibling hood, et cetera. Uh, your, your faith should be in there as well. Yeah. Uh, is more important. So, uh, Devon, I'm just so grateful for you to come here and be so open and, uh, humble and authentic with your story. I think it's going to help a lot of people. And I'm really grateful for your trust in me and being able to share your story and your journey. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, real quick, can I tell a quick story about our relationship for everyone? Please, please, that you probably won't even remember. Oh, okay. Testing, testing. Derek, Daring COVID. Uh, so for everyone who's, who is this coach green guy, uh, for those of you that are on Twitter, who were on Twitter a while ago, Higley, XCTF, that was us. Yeah. The five, the 5 a.m. crew. We, the 5 a.m. crew. I remember they get a cool shirt. I remember that. It was just, uh, well, we're getting there. It was just kind of a joke on how seriously

2:07:31everyone else took the coaching running world. And we were kind of like, hey, we're going to have a fun with this kind of, it is what it is. Right. Daring COVID, we tweeted something about having, T-shirt exchange with schools across the country. And I remember you started following us and then we started interacting and you're, oh, this is so cool. Whatever. I don't know if you still have it, but I know we sent you a couple T-shirts. Uh, but this is, that was kind of our relationship. And I remember, I remember tweeting you out of meat because we had, I think, a shop putter, a javelin or something that didn't make way. I remember tweeting you out of the, hey, we need equipment right now. There's one of my reps. I'm in, I'm somewhere. Uh, here's one of our reps. Got it done. You got a sequitment and as quick as we could get it. But, uh, so I'm not just some guy. I've known Mike for a long time. He's one of the, he's one of the great guys in the sport. And I would, uh, you know, I'm very thankful that I have the relationship with him. And if for those of you who don't, uh, he's, he's very easy to reach out to. He's incredibly helpful. Uh, for those of you coaches who are getting started and all this other stuff and he's

2:08:31great. No, he knows a lot of people. He can get you in touch with just about anybody. So, uh, you know, I'm, I'm very thankful for you and our relationship and it's, it's just been, it's been very funny how this has come about because I've known you for so long. Yeah. I've known you for so long. Yeah. I mean, you've invited me out to the coaches thing and Colorado. I remember when that happened and all that stuff. So, uh, yeah, it was, it's, it's just funny that this is kind of the culmination of everything is me ending up on your podcast. Devon, first of all, appreciate the memories. Thank you so much for that. You know, um, uh, I'd love hearing that because, you know, sometimes just like in coaching, we forget to tell, that's why I challenge you to go find the Buchanan coach. We, we forget to tell the positive. And so, um, right. You know, hearing that, that really, it's a, it's a highlight of my, my week, brother. Honestly, I really appreciate you, uh, being intentional and telling that story. So thank you for that, my friend. And thanks for being a track coach. Yeah. No problem. Thanks for being a dad, bro. It's someone who did not grow up with a father, man. Uh, and now is, is breaking that chain for my children. Uh, I just think those stories are, again, that's more important than the

2:09:34coaching story. You know, uh, is the fatherhood story. So again, just so grateful for you and so grateful for, uh, really being open and authentic. Let me challenge you with some questions. You did a great job. Uh, and truly proud of you, my friend. Yeah. Uh, and then just quickly before we get out of here, I just need to say hi to three people. My son. I love you. Carter, you're the best. I love you. Uh, one of the best eighth graders in the state of Arizona. Uh, stamp that. Uh, my nephew, AJ and then, uh, my, my, my baby brother just had his first son. So nephew, baby booger. Uh, nice. Uh, we love you guys. And, you know, I'm happy that we're, you know, able to spend this time together now that I have all this free time to spend. That's right. Yeah. Don't, hey, don't let me hear you sitting on the couch eating bond bonds. That's right. You got a lot of free time. You better use it wisely. And I know, I know you're a little wondering. Devon, thank you so much for being here. Guys and guys, thank you so much for being here. You know, uh, we're on our seventh season, which is just amazing. I don't know that I would ever say that. Uh, 350 plus episodes, uh, amazing people from all levels, middle school, high school, all the different colleges, uh, pros, et cetera, and just continue to want to bring value to you and to really, again, the, the mission stays the same. We started this to uplift and honor, track and

2:10:38field coaches around the country. And, uh, we will continue to do that on a daily basis. And I'm so glad we got to, uh, finally, I've had them on the list forever. I finally, it's all me. Finally, finally got them on the show at the right time. Remember, you're at the right place at the right time, right now. That's right. And that's why we are here today. So thank you so much for being here. Join us next week. We'll do it all over again. Thanks, guys. More than one way to the goal. Taking those sats down your toe. It ain't practice. If your purpose ain't clear, it can't happen to you. Listen to both ears. You can't be in trouble without a mentor. Kids of experience. You can be a bento. Kids. Every plan's got a standard to live up to. And the price sacrifice. Can you give up you? It's a choice and the fight. Not to win all those. It's not a boy, boy. The vice y'all can make more moves. It's not about how

2:11:40to. It's all about why you don't know until you know who you are inside. Six million ways to tie. She's nothing. So we're y'all across the finish line. The work ain't done. So we learned from the experts. We all got to win in the lab work. Gale athletics. She's a network. It's all about connections. Put together for the profession. To every track coach can be