259: “Coding an app is the new starting a podcast”, Jack VV AI Projects & Karpathy AI Proof Jobs

0:00Models and the interfaces that they're shipping now is like, I think the degree to which this is get becoming accessible is unbelievable And it's also why you feel like oh man, I'm not working on a hard enough problem when you're doing it. So it's like this is too easy Travis Kalanick, right? Did you see that clip going around if it's easy? It's not valuable the bit the the big clip was like if you're doing something and it's easy It's not valuable So if you're not crawling through glass Yeah, what you're doing is pointless and I think again to one audience like yeah, if you're trying to be Cornelius Vanderbilt that is accurate But if you're just trying to have a laugh on the computer, maybe not true, you know the opposite is true like Welcome to another episode or not investment advice. You got Jack but your balazadee Jack you've been vibed coding it out mate. We can't share everything but you're going in and I was saying I was comparing you to a Comedian a stand-up comedian who's went he sold at Madison Square Garden

1:02But he's still comedy seller Tuesday night 11 p.m. Surprise act. That's how I feel you feel that's how I feel when I hear you talking about creating stuff man. I love it Mate, I feel I'm still on the I'm still on the Beginner's circuit man. He's gonna keep it going. Yeah, 100% well, let's talk about what we're gonna touch on today Trung is not here, but he'll be here things crossed next week But we got a lot of AI stuff obviously We've got no vow had a bang a tweet obviously it's a jack-and-ball out pod So we got to take it old school create a lab episode one if you haven't heard well not episode one first time We did a podcast together. It was the no vow thread breaking it down philosophical chat So he had a tweet here saying coding an app is the new start in the podcast is the most NIA thing So we're gonna that's two guys talking on the podcast We're gonna talk about that idea in a second and a little bit. We got a meme in a week

2:03Ready for you guys as well. Also, Andre Kapati. I always say his name kind of funny He had a whole little breakdown on the future of jobs something that comes up a lot in AMAs people ask and there's a whole little Breakdown here on the types of jobs that he thinks won't be replaced by AI and vice versa Gonna break that down and then we're gonna do a little show and tell the best of best of the best from Jack What he's been you know tinkerin with you know jack's always making stuff as I was saying before You've been doing a few little projects Jack. Yeah, for the visual value and all sorts of stuff Yeah, man, we've been trying to skill up People what what are we gonna be looking at later? What I got just a couple little Experiments I've been working on with these models and Sort of going back into the VV archives and thinking of ways to To sort of bring that stuff back to life. So I'll show a couple of little ideas. I've been playing around within that

3:05In that world amazing Also, can we talk about your setup behind you? Someone's gonna ask in a couple of we let's talk. Yeah, mate. No, I got just getting some furniture into the studio space It's been nice to have a have some room Got the books back there Proper little I couldn't tell for them reading like a zoom background or if it was a fall Full send vent you got the VV flag up loving that lots of light We're gonna have a door dash guy coming in about 45 minutes Who you to bolt-lay ball up Creeping in from the back. All right. Anyway, let's get going. So this was a tweet You know, no valve rather can't friend of the pods Friend of the pod that we can say that we can say that after you've been in a few or you've done lots of work with with those guys So definitely friend of the pod talking a witch by the way shout out to the view. This has got my address on it So did you work on the Eric book? All right, so I got it here. We're gonna have to give them a shout crack it open mate

4:05I'll crack it open when we're talking about this, but you sent me the new I'll get your prop hang on gone Let's keep this all in so we can see Jack's fall We're gonna get a fit check later as well. What was this little camo pant? No, we go smashing it. He don't even know what I'm saying Eric sent me this That's the one there you go. They I think I've got the same thing here. Let's see how many let's see if I got any of those little Colorful things in here. Amazing. So that is your you did the visuals for that. Yeah, so it's Eric's new book on Yeah, Elon Musk. Let's see. Here we go. All right. I didn't get as many, but he did I do like that. He knows there we go The book of Elon pretty sick and what mine is literally where the illustrations are. That's why okay That what I like that because the one he's flagged for me. Sorry. Disattaining into an ad for his stuff, but I love that should Yeah, he's probably highlighted a couple things that that's smart. I like that. All right. Let's go

5:07Back to the back to the topic here. Coding an app is the new start and a podcast Jack How you how you feeling about that statement here? I mean, I mean, it's It's funny. It's a incredible tweet for so many reasons because it's like it's like I don't know if it's meant as a Like to rob people up, but it definitely rouse people up, you know the idea that like you are you know the common perception of the podcast is the you know the memes of like make podcasts equipment more expensive immediately. Yeah. Yeah And I can say someone who's had two podcasts that I can potentially agree on myself But also for the wider group of podcasts. Yeah, just like what was funny because his message is also like You know the internet and media production and you know the dispersion of authority and anybody can do anything on the internet Very true, but the commentary is also like The game gets easier. So it's much harder to be

6:10You know at the top of it. So the idea that You remember that this gets misattributed to me, but I think it was Chris Williamson that said it originally It was the like 80% of podcasts only get to three episodes and then like if you get to 20 or in the top 1% of like any Podcasts ever existed and I guess it's a similar thing here like the idea that The compression of the skill set to produce the app or the software or the website is just going down enormously and That is what people kind of Stumble into is the realization that that was never really the thing right it's like if you can Describe it to someone else who can do it you still could have made it There's definitely like so much say that again, Jack you're saying that if you could describe it and someone else meaning Not a computer, but a code or somewhere. Yeah, it's always been communication I guess the argument you would make is like the resources requirement has gone down significantly

7:11Don't pay somebody else you pay open AI or anthropic 20 bucks a month and you can make the thing But the work actually begins once you ship it right once it's out in the world How you talk about it and well, let's bring up meme of the week for this because thing is a perfect segment Oh, this was a bang this was just for people good little background jack shared this what what date is this March the fifth so this is a few weeks ago It's going to be relevant for a long time. This one could be maybe this is everything This is you're going to have to if you're listening you're going to have to go over and check this one out But this is vibe coders realizing they need to dance on tiktok To market their product and it's just a little little despair Incredible man. Yeah, I'm going to repeat that vibe coders realizing they need to dance on tiktok to market their product So yeah, basically God, do you want to expand on what why this resonated jack? Yeah, I think it's like To the last point it's you just misdiagnosed the hard part of the process like the making the thing having the idea

8:14Telling Claude to make a to-do app is like Not difficult right the edge is in Distribution especially in things that are not difficult to make Like if you're making some Clone of something or even some software that is cheaper than the thing that exists now The edge becomes like how do you get people to care about it? There's so many good tweets that have come out of this even like You know, I vibe coded a replacement for a slack and now I only spend four hundred dollars a month on tokens and 20 hours fixing bugs like there's so many funny emergent like so much funny emergent commentary on this stuff and It is kind of the perfect product and you remember in 2021 where there's like Making notion dashboards over and over again. Oh, there is this like there is this like I would identify with this to some degree too. There's this like psychographic profile of like I'm making stuff or like I'm

9:15You know productivity as a like this performative product And this is like on a optimization brain right? Yeah, yeah, this is all I have that I have it too, but You get this dopamine itch, you know, it's like you're addicted to Not even progress. You're addicted to the feedback loop of like Stuff happening. It's like playing a video game which we talked about a couple months ago or weeks ago on the pod is like these artifacts are just these Sort of outputs of the process and the typical behavior is like I make the thing I finished you I tweet about it once and I go make something else, you know And even the way that that that these systems condition your brain to think Is like you already The speed or wish the models get better or like the next idea you have that you know you can make in a day is Re-calibrating the incentives or at least the behavior in such a way that people don't stick with the thing even as much as they would have two or three years ago, you know

10:21Where if it was super painful to build the software you then sort of transition your effort to The marketing which is which is the brutal part of the process and the thing that never ends and This I guess a tale as old as time especially technical people have a hard time With marketing with talking with like positioning something as accessible and And if you've got a hundred times the amount of people doing that a thousand a thousand times the amount of people doing that that game just gets exponentially harder and then Even the internet landscape has changed in such a way that like That tick-tock thing gets to the heart of it. It's like you have to have some Insane distribution strategy to get these things into into people's hands so Me talking about it for 15 minutes is the same Inside as the valve put into six words is like how many people start a podcast and never got a listener or have you know

11:23Five people listening to a podcast I don't necessarily think it's meant as a critique. It's just the barrier to entries gotten so low that The you know the degree to which you Can make an outlier is like that just gets harder and harder and harder Kind of the case with everything technology related, right? Yeah No, that's it's a good I do like the comparison though with podcasts I guess you can replace starting a podcast with starting a sub stack You know crane youtube channel anything which again that doesn't diminish starting Most people still don't even start those things right so even if you did that that's already a very good positive step But you're right like the the hard part is in Actually making some of people want wherever that's a podcast youtube channel sub stack or an app But I think previously for the last I think especially with the 2010s Kind of um default way of people thought of tech startups in air quotes or creating an app after the iPhone

12:26And you heard of these stories and like everyone would be like oh, I've got this idea for an app And then all I need to do is find a technical co-founder, you know That's the phrase that everyone you'd be going to these meetups You go in like oh, I'm looking for the technical co-founder like that's just a magic bullet and Now we will say that is obviously reduced significantly. It doesn't mean you still don't need someone technical But you like we talked about you can create something quite easily now I think the the best example of this recently is did you see we've talked about him on the pod before zack Forgot his surname starts with a why Yeah, Degari the guy who started Kalei. I do see that. Oh, yeah, yeah, just incredibly. They just sold to they I think there was 17 years old in high school They just sold to I think my fitness power for reported I think it was my fitness power which is obviously the biggest calorie tracking app And if you've never used any of those with jack. I know you've done this on that measuring macros My fitness pal no disrespect anyone who works on that product is it's horrible to use

13:30Yes, it's not sure there are reasons for that but it's incredibly difficult to you But what's crazy crazy large business right like for anyone who's You know doing in for like that a lot of them would use that there's a few others But what they did with Kalei is you take a picture of the food it analyzes and I've tried it out It's actually I say like 80 to 90% does the job which for most people is all you need right and so you Will measure it and you'd say okay, this is 600 calories. It's a chipotle ball whatever And it's just way quicker way easier And these guys just taught themselves to code used all the AI tools Made the first product and then eventually they did have to professionalizing higher people But they got there they got their first dollar away before exactly Which is cool. I think that is an interesting thing that should be the Takeaway is like the speed to validate the idea Is accelerating significantly that's a good way to frame it Especially in the like pure play software business

14:30And this obviously this stuff has an impact in basically every Pursuit but like pure software the ability to even stand up like Marketing to see if you're if there's any appetite for the idea has the cost of that has come down significantly so Cool to see like really cool example of Of somebody just like diving into it and get an amazing result And so yeah, I think they're sold for 100 million apparently he confirmed in his tweet They broke 50 million in ARR and you're recurring revenue Crazy crazy, man, and if you've I've listened quite a few pods with him um Like the real secret source if you it's not really secret they talk about very openly was getting really good at vertical video And then partnering influencers, but again, it's like a lot of people will think oh now I've created SAP let me Gone find an influencer to block my thing or let me find someone who does marketing And it's like no, this is a whole that's the core competency of the company right like you know

15:31There's certain companies that are like Jim shark another good one. Yeah, that's a great example But it's like certain companies like the core competency has been Incredibly technical or they've got crazy money to spend on infrastructure research whatever else it might be A lot of these concern, but if you're in a consumer facing business which this is your core competencies getting people to use your stuff and Getting awareness for it and becoming experts in in what they did Testing thousands of creative learning how how the algorithm work in crazy detail Um, and then obviously continuing to like improve the product itself But yes, that's a great example of this. I'm also just going to pull out this was a tweet from Akash Gupta in reply Or quote twing the novel tweet coding an app is a new start in the podcast He said making it easy to start something is the fastest way to make it nearly impossible To succeed 4.6 million podcasts exist today only 390,000 are active. That's 89% death rate

16:32Right, so there is a bunch of stuff in there, but just given an example of that's I mean that's true of anything I think there's also like this is like great tweet fodder because it's like Impossible to quantify it's like everybody that never started a business is a failed entrepreneur You really want to you know, yeah, feel asophical about it, mate so I feel like There's so much and then there's also the like podcast circuit or the incentives of You know, wherever the ownership in these platforms is Like the behaviors that they start to optimize and for and the things that they want to encourage It is like Maybe this like production as entertainment. That's almost what podcasts turned into two. It was like this was this like elitist You know approved top down These are the podcasts on the app store that you need a studio to to produce one out of

17:36and The same thing has happened basically everything in technology over time websites. I'm sure it was the same It's like you know universities making websites and hosting them on like a shipping container size server And then we're all making my space pages 20 years ago and it is interesting like The frame of it is always this commercial thing right is like oh Look at all these people look all these idiots not building a hundred million dollar business It's like maybe some people just doing it for a laugh, you know, it's just fun to play with Uh, and we're in the corner of Twitter where it's like You know if you're not gonna build the next Facebook don't bother Well, I mean there's there's voices in that corner I suppose it's they're talk like that. I shouldn't say that but the idea I think that this has just become this like fun thing that maybe people are approaching not even as a commercial exercise in the beginning I think it's cool. Oh, it's incredible. Yeah, just like oh, I read um, I think I forget who it was

18:40Somebody in that in that all but though Maybe it was um program. What's his name Ryan? Um, yeah, no Ryan Hoover Hoover. Yeah, I think it was him who tweeted. He's like being my girlfriend made this like party invite that we would have gone to like Normally gone to like party full or what and it like became this exercise They sat down for a couple hours and made this thing. It was fun. It was like, you know, you make all these creative decisions and you send this thing out this that's yours I think that's We miss a lot of that in our corner of the internet because some some people have no desire to like you know grind it out To make an app there entire line of comedy club 11 pms Exactly and I think that's the cool thing about these Models and the interfaces at their shipping now is like I think the degree to which this is get becoming accessible. It's um is unbelievable And it's also why you feel like oh man, I'm not working on a hard enough problem when you're doing it. So it's like this is too easy

19:45Travis Kalanick, right You see that clip going around If it's easier, it's not valuable the bit the the big clip was like doing something and it's easy. It's not valuable So if you're not crawling through glass Yeah, what you're doing is pointless. I don't look at somebody go. Oh, dude That's I had it so much harder uphill both ways to school whatever. Yeah, you know, I don't think like that It's it's it's more about the excellence of the process. Yeah, so I'm like well, how do you raise money? And they're like oh, yeah, I just throw a deck to the guy. I'm like, okay, well, that's not a thing What is a thing is going all the way until it hurts if you're doing something and it's easy It's not valuable and I'll explain like it. Let's just think of like a like a marathoner. Yeah world-class marathoner On mile 21 Is that dude smiling? No, he's not smiling by the way if he is smiling, you know, it's about to happen. He's about to get his ass whoop

20:47Okay, because why because somebody else who's down for the pain will go harder and further and pass him And so if you're getting money easy, I'm like why didn't you go harder? You could have done it better and more Now you don't do things hard just cause maybe he's like just doesn't matter to like I gotta go do something else That's hard But the key is like if money matters which I think we would say it does especially In certain categories you need to be the best in the world at it And it's not enough to say it was easy if anybody comes to me and says a strategic thing was easy I'm like you messed up You could have been way better and gone way further more competitive advantage more differentiation Get it together and I think again to one audience like yeah if you're trying to be Cornelius Vanderbilt that is accurate But if you're just trying to have a laugh on the computer Maybe not true, you know the opposite is true. Yeah, I think that's a great way to put it because I think a lot of those guys still come from that default

21:52mindset 2010s that we were talking about like go bigger go home if you're you know the same people that would call A business a lifestyle business in a derogatory way I mean like everything is technically a lifestyle like do you know I mean like even if you're trying to You just got a slightly different lifestyle if you're the founder of uber you know I mean you got private jet money versus something else So it's just like yeah, obviously I understood the idea of why people used to phrase lifestyle business But it was very tech Silicon Valley looking down on oh you're just doing that thing like you know It's kind of like I didn't really love that but And similarly here I think a lot of those people are missing the fact that In the same way a podcast became easy to start like even from the time I started to Create a lab to just like NIA it was so much easier right like it went from I remember you couldn't even There wasn't I don't know if zoom was around or Or like you had to use Skype and then you'd have to like pay for some random add-on to record

22:54Like the video and audio and then you had to I mean it's still kind of it's still kind of janky. Yeah, yeah Like you would pat piecing together all this stuff 100% it's actually interesting that zoom hasn't or one of these companies hasn't gone like Podcast sweet Yeah, somebody listening vibe code that up man What I mean is that I really said and those guys but even then it's like They're not really like full stack tools for producing a podcast. So are they? Yeah, I don't I don't use it for a while But I agree because I but similar to what we're saying because the recording an hour long podcast is the easy part right yeah Creating someone people want finding out how to get it to people like you know during the hour and hour on your pod Exactly exactly There you go Doing the hard graph there Jack, but yeah So how many episodes are we on below I think two Let's see two 58 today Which is actually 59 we've shipped exactly yeah because we started episode zero so that there we go that incredible Yeah, thank you to thank you to everybody listening man. It's so sick. Um, but yeah, so we've got

23:59um So yeah that other thing I was going to mention on the just to compare to finish that thought For it became easier to start podcast or sub stack but So if 90% of people just drop off and like 9% don't get more than you know thousand listeners or whatever it might be That like in the same way that will probably happen with apps like you just create something and you put it to app store Um, you might not even get to the app store part right like you just might have something in your browser that you're using local 3000 low exactly. Yeah, but in the same way that Had a graveyard of a bunch of podcasts, but then it also created gave space for Friend at a pot Chris Williamson You know who else send like those sort of people who started from scratch Grinding it out, you know create a massive audience in the same way here. You're gonna find Um the same examples here Kalei. Exactly. So I think that's just but I think when people become too romantic about

25:01I'm gonna just create something it's just gonna go viral people just gonna spread the word There may be you know in some rare cases that is the case, but most of the time is not and so I think that's just the lesson There's a lot more to any business than just creating the the thing the other big part is how you get it out to people And and you kind of have to treat that with as much respect as the creating part as well All right, so we got here Jack. I mean, I just been messing around with these Models obviously VV has all this Trailing context and all these assets and Images that have been created over the years and the curriculums that were written in 2020 You know 2019 2020 and Just I've been running this thing on a Shopify site with kind of janky integrations I was like, oh, let me try and just build something that integrates everything and I'll just click around a little bit like this um You know all of the visuals feed in here shout out the jillil built an API for all the VV images

26:06So now I'm like able to figure out how to interface with these things were completely foreign to me before um, so this will pull up any Visual in the VV archive Write descriptions by the bar and then The all the curriculums are now just free on the front end here. So literally completely uh pulled this from the The mighty network system I used to use API access clone this into its own thing Make it scraperable and discoverable by agents etc And then a couple little projects. I've been doing uh that are fully you know in this vein of um Of like AI AI native projects. I guess you would call them the first one is this like markdown file of my voice So I had I had downloaded the twitter archive of 50,000 tweets

27:08and then Basically had it compress it into a style guide for writing I'm using it a lot myself now in all these different projects where If figured out a lot of the patterns in my writing and like if you take something very verbose and say like use this As a guide to rewrite this thing. I'll do it with a couple little website projects I've been working on recently It's like just massively compresses the Information and and hopefully retains what it's trying to communicate So that's the that's sort of the first thing I started messing around with and then So wait Jack to understand how do you actually then use it then So you would go to the GitHub here And then you literally copy this you go to the MD file Copy this and just paste it into any lllm And this is this is basically instructions for how to write In your time in my voice. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah So that's one part and then did I flick back to the website?

28:11Jack was the sense it was the anything when you did that analysis of yourself Was anything that stood out that you were almost surprised by or was it just so unbranded? No, I think it was pretty strong like some of the The patterns and stuff that you don't really recognize that you're doing like the structure that you write in It's able to because there's so much information and it could just still some of that stuff So the more obviously has to work with the more The more repeatable or formulaic I suppose it gets or the more it can detect the patterns across all of the all of the information And now basically took that and then made this the second thing which is called writer with two views and it's um It's a did it flick to the new tab Yeah, yeah This is like the writing voice plus the visuals So index is both and it writes articles basically straight up by itself So I put a couple on a blogger here Wait, so like you can basically create content for yourself in your own voice with exactly

29:12So create the visuals for you In our users visuals. Oh, it's not good enough to do that. Yeah, I was like could you create a new like you were gonna create a visual That you're gonna post and then could you use that to say create a post? Yeah, and that's the source is like the image Which is basically I could you you would you would install this this writer thing You could put it straight into Claude code. It's called an mcp You could say I want to write an article about for example this like Why nobody cares what you built and you have to get good at communicating you know in age of AIS Easy to make stuff is hard to explain it basically first part the part Exactly and it will say this anyone can build the bottle like is no longer technical It's rhetorical can you explain what this thing does and why someone should care in fewer words than it took to build it And then it pulls my tweets it pulls like it connects these images and just makes these I think pretty coherent articles Maybe better than I could write myself now With a Prompt that I'm writing at the top so I'm directing it and it comes out with this stuff. There's like very pointed

30:18And then the last thing I worked on a ship yesterday is a It is basically the two of those things together in a sense it's called package and you Paste like a GitHub repo and it will give you These so I did this actually let me do this Bitcoin so take the Bitcoin GitHub repository right Which is the stick it in here It finds angles And it's a product basically for that person who is building stuff tweeting about it once but doesn't have a good marketing angle for it So it will read the code and read the summary of the code and they'll make the marketing material Up the back of that and use the writing voice of vv and pull these visuals in to explain why it's interesting wow And so which again for people who don't know jack you used to when you first started visualized value

31:21You were basically doing this with companies remember I mean yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly So they would say hey jack we've got this logistics company Can you like help us communicate that in our world and you would like spend the whole day with them And understand what you're doing but you're basically doing a Or probably maybe a lighter version of it here less definitely lighter version right now. Yeah, yeah But this would be The like off the shelf version of that process, which is like how do you He go So I put a Bitcoin repository in right says one line or send value directly to anyone without banks or governments Oh wow, that's sick and then it will pull these direct peer-to-peer value transfer without traditional banking intermediaries pulls this visual That is so crisp spot on creating infinite some value distribution by bypassing zero some gatekeepers Equity-based systems unite participants without political divisions And then it will make a little landing page money without middle man. That's crazy Every parent you make go

32:21Confirm what was the input here you said the the Bitcoin what it was literally the bit the Bitcoin GitHub repository So the majority of people that are making these apps are just like dumping them constantly into these GitHub repositories to host them on Vasello or whatever and not they don't have any marketing material or very little marketing material So the idea here is that this is it's reads that you could also just paste you could always just write a paragraph of what the product is I was gonna say could you put that the Bitcoin white paper in there For sure. Yeah, that would work too. Okay, and then it gives you a product on description 30 second pitch Share description and then I'm just adding a few things now like get feedback from people like unique specificity clarity Um, and then some feedback here You know that's amazing So I just can we drink around could we try one could it do a podcast like not investment or not investment advice Let me see. I don't know if that would work, but just get we could try out and if not

33:28I should actually make it um for I should make it for any URL Let me just paste this into it. This is old. Yeah, obviously But yeah, I'm just curious to see what it would do in the jack voice I guess the input is is fairly limited here versus like The weird internet stuff before anyone else finds it pretty good That's an internet culture real time. That's pretty good where memes meet business strategy. Okay Yeah, Jack, what's your C systems rely on C's opportunities trunks. He's the story together They decode all the internet is actually telling us most Have yesterday's news this one spot tomorrow's opportunity is hiding in today's memes That's very cool. I'm kind of glad we tried that. That's really interesting. And then if you Let it run. I still got a lot of work to do on this, but the the MVP Uh, if you go back to This I'll show you How do people get to this is we visualize that you just visualize value calm and then there's a there's a link at the top package

34:33And I have these recent generations here too. So it's like these are these are things that people have actually put in here So someone's put see who's really the fastest human alive Check in all your final message yet sent. There's some mad stuff in there Get some interesting ones in there at some point exactly. They're probably already are That's when your best sales page into shareable clips. Yeah, so If anyone is interested in that, obviously would uh, would Would love you to try it and if you have any feedback, let me know, but I'm gonna keep Keep shipping and uh, I think there's something there's something new for sure That's sick make really cool back to um, let me go back to this quickly Here you go Memes off of rest of that package. Yeah Wow Wait, let's see the subtitle. What do you say? Uh, uh, deco I mean, sweet business strategy on the landing page Jack butcher below

35:34Trung deco tomorrow's opportunity is hiding in today's internet culture kind of yeah, that's that's pretty good Not far off track there. It ages well connect the dots Wait, wait, that's pretty good because like again, probably but we just for people who know the background We don't talk about any of this stuff right like we wrote that thing that you copied and pasted I wrote like Once that probably when we were and I probably shared it with you guy you might refine it I can't remember but uh, it was literally just like off top of a head We were like, oh, we'll figure it out later and we just basically never done anything after that So it's uh kind of interesting to see what How it Dissects it all yeah, it's really cool. Well, it's fun man. It's I mean, it's just ridiculous how how you know how little uh The cool thing I think about working on top of all the VV context is You know, there's there's like this base to think of new iterations with you're not starting from zero completely So that's been a that's been like a fun little Little restraint to try and make interesting things with the existing material

36:40So yeah, all right, let's move on amazing great stuff. We'd love to get people's uh playing around with that for some feedback All right, let's move on to yeah also just again, man great to see you Tinkering with all this stuff very very cool Um to see behind the scenes a little bit All right, so Andre Kapati just dropped a project scoring every job in america on how likely an AR will replace it from zero to 10 Did you do you see this yeah? I think I shared in a group chat, but um yeah, sorry. Yeah. Yeah Um, so I just skimmed through it when I sent it But essentially he scraped all three hundred forty two occupations from the Bureau of Labor Fed each one to L&M L&M with a detailed scoring rubric built an interactive tree map where rectangle size equals number of jobs and Color how exposed that job is to AI. So yeah, um, the scale was like zero to one roofers janitors Four to five nurses retail physicians eight to nine software devs paralegals data analysts Ten medical transcription lists. I don't do what was that

37:45Do you know what I? Medical transcriptions. Yeah, is that just for I think that's just like I think that's uh, I don't know Maybe these people like writing recordings of medical interactions or something like that's already gone Okay. Yeah, yeah, that makes it but they might just like some of this stuff is like you need a human in there in case they Bollock something up, right? Yeah, there's someone has to get blamed for it So some of this stuff is interesting and like Technically this job couldn't be done by a computer and that's been possible for a long time But there's a system in place where There are legal reasons why that's not the case or the regulatory reasons why that's not the case. I think you know A hospital full of robots is probably a little way off Yeah, I know what is actually it's uh, um, I was having this discussion with a couple friends Recently about real estate because they're they're in New York and they were talking about How AI is gonna take Over you know real estate transactions because it's so much easier to do certain things which obviously

38:46It's true in some ways in terms of like the legal stuff like close, you know the contract all that sort of stuff But my point to them was We're already like in New York specifically. It's the reason we pay you notice from living here right a 15% for the year Broccoli fee to rent a place which pretty much no one else has is not because there's not a street easy or Craigslist Something where you can list stuff. Yeah, it's not it's not technology It's not a technology product exactly that was my plan. So it's not to say that AI won't Accelerate some of those things, but I was saying there there's already in air quotes a technology solution from 20 years ago A marketplace online where you can list your place and find rental, you know Tenants or whatever, but the what is stopping that from being completely just A peer-to-peer marketplace If that's the right phrase is all the intermediaries the regulation there's some regulations more so is the incentives for landlords the real estate agents

39:48They're kind of in bed with each other You know a lot of the landlords are so old school and the other example I gave is here You still a lot of people still pay for their rent with a check like a physical check And and so my one I literally have it scheduled with my bank and it sends it directly to landlord, right? But it's like a company. It's mental and I've lived in three apartments all three of them was exactly the same And so it's just like that again is a perfect example. There's been ACH transfer like you know bank transfer for how many DC man there you go exactly right though, you know, it's Again, it's not a technical problem. It's it's like um What's the word yeah the all infrastructure and also um Social norms and stuff like that as well So like if you've got an old school landlord and they the demand for their real estate is so high that they can just keep doing the same thing That's basically what's going to happen. So So that I do think that's my overall point, but the kind of punchline to all of it is that I do think

40:50If you're in this edge of the internet world that we're trying to share on the pod You can sometimes get a little bit ahead of yourself thinking that the whole world This is ending all the jobs are replaced and most things take a lot longer than you think um In terms of actual adoption because adoption come from real people and humans and humans have Live on that curve that I always reference the adoption curve You are probably an early adopter if you're listening to this right you're someone who's at least Curious about it and I'm seeing a huge shift in even just really smart people just Turning themselves to off to AI in a blanket way We're they're saying the same way they don't want to use their phones like meet like all of us But they buck it into one big thing. It's that old technology is bad It did this for the election. It did this for misinformation and Now they just associate Technology and air quotes with this negative thing which obviously is stupid right like there's obviously layers to it Things that can help you things that will hinder you um

41:53So it's just yeah that that's kind of my punchline to it all is there's varying levels to all of this stuff Um did i'm just going to share the visual on the screen for a second so this was the Visualization visualization of Let me just make it large can you can you see this jack yeah So yeah again for not looking good bruv. It's not looking good bruv. Exactly. It's a lot of red On the screen right now, but nursing home health Well, as we got financial management. Okay. That was going a long time ago. No offense For a part that's another actually interesting one though isn't it is like uh The you know two percent or one percent fee you're paying a manager to stick your money in uh like ETS for exactly just insane But the no we'll say actually jack to sorry I've been one thing i changed my mind on is there are some people who will make less mistakes because they don't get emotional

42:56When things drop and they don't have literally acted so that that's the only time You know where i'm like once you know the game i guess it's like You paid somebody for a year and like we've weathered enough ups and down. We're like okay. I'm not gonna Like what does one percent shave off your your the end result For what they're actually doing for you is it's pretty mad But I guess on these examples he shared it looks like Manual labor You know like that's actually oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you're not really getting a robot AI powered robots is a way off Yeah, um software devs paralegals Data and i think that's if that's actually seems pretty spot on Again, that doesn't mean i think i think if your replace completely means that part of your work has been replaced very well right now Well, yeah, anthropic is publishing these spider diagrams. You saw that one did we talk about that i didn't see that So they're actual research department or whatever they're calling the you know

43:59What some division of anthropic is like impacts of AI economic impacts of AI and they have this spider diagram that shows Where it is already Making progress And this is like a more um, you know, this is a more High fidelity like role by role version. Let me show my screen hammer Theoretical coverage in blue here. So if anybody listening and management business and finance computer and math Architecture and engineering life and social sciences Life sciences Social services legal education and library arts and media healthcare practitioners These are all high on the scale of things are high impact apparently and then where it's made the most the most uh coverage actually Oh, this is observed AI coverage but so the for people who are listening there's There's these spider diagram where it shows the scale is blue Where it shines theoretical and then there's the red in the middle which is observed so it's already started

45:04Wow, that's a good idea. I mean, so a lot of these things are um It's just interesting like what was the prompt that produced this because there's um Like in the supply chain for all of this stuff. This is obviously making an impact too, right? It's like even in something like the food supply chain you would think of all the all the Manual tasks that can be automated up to the point of the thing being Delivered. There's a lot there. What was this the least The least impact is groundsmaid and as I'm not sure I made the car as a as like a massive economic category, but fair enough That's funny So I just think of Vinny Jones's character in gentleman when he goes in his father jacket But actually, why you got it up this river too. I wouldn't mind that job. Yeah, for real Yeah, but the yeah, that's true. Nice and peaceful. Take the dogs out for a walk So the ones that is saying aren't impacted as much transportation which I that sounds off now

46:04Transportation it feels like well, I guess that like robotics and AI they're making a massive distinction I was gonna say so maybe this if you laddered up to You know technology impact definitely transportation would be probably driving would be a would be a giant category now Surely that's what I was thinking like self-driving doesn't happen without AI But the ones that seem to make a lot more sense production installation and repair construction agriculture Man, this is crazy right personal care. Is that low? Yeah, okay Sales I wonder how I wonder about sales is interesting one actually and so let's come on to the sales in a second But those categories anything in there that's worth Cool enough. I think installation repair makes a lot sense one if you think of this as a two-way marketplace for jobs one is Robot AI isn't necessarily you know doing the physical work In you know, though if you're in an Amazon factory. It's a little bit different, right? But the but there's also the increase of demand for that job as well

47:07So like if everyone's building data centers you're gonna need Lots of infrastructure built and a lot of that is I think would be installation repair would be kind of a part of that construction similarly Maybe that's a big category there Agriculture makes sense as well but Obviously we've moved from you know, we're not the economy is not made up of majority people doing agriculture work in the US obviously But that's really interesting for other countries where you know, if their primary market is Agriculture, that's that's actually interesting But on sales jack that's should we stop sharing ours there? Yeah, that's right Sales that's an interesting one because what was your thoughts on that any Because it was a halfway it was that halfway there which I actually think is quite accurate Sales in there. I think Is there advertising on there or not? I don't wonder if that I wonder if they're covering that because that is for sure Like getting absolutely massively impact like you can run a thousand angles on this thing. Oh, yeah, and

48:12but I guess the bigger debate is like what this does even if you're like running a Little company Either the quality or the quantity or both of what you do can go up significantly So it becomes a question of like what is the what is the market's ability to absorb that and all of this is is based on the hypothesis That it's zero Basically, right? It's like we're never going to want more than we want right now or like there's no There's no room for more Arts and media, which is a stupid statement You know, it's like this is the amount of arts and media that we consume therefore if AI starts doing this amount of it Then you know eventually we'll get to a hundred and there'll be no more arts and media There's so many assumptions layered into that that even something like Camera the the introduction of the camera is like oh, there's going to be so many more pictures now So that's a good example

49:14The art industry is over. It's like hang on a minute. It's the opposite is true, right? It's like the whole thing It's unlocked surface area that you couldn't have possibly imagined before Interest more creation. Yeah, more people as creators more people as consumers like A lot of this stuff and it's obvious why you have to map it to the stuff that exists is like This is how we think about this industry today. We just got this technology that You know Makes a lot of these jobs a waste of somebody's time to sit in front of a computer and do unless they have you know some Governmental mandate to do to to root around These technologies and do something manually So I don't know not really saying anything definitive there, but that my first instinct is like Sales will just keep going to the edge, you know like there's gonna be something outside of this system that you know Somebody more talented. Sell you Something there an AI can't sell you

50:16Jack went I don't know if you saw me smirk when you said Tails will keep taking it to the edge because part of sales as people know for certain types of sales that is Cold outreach right depends on the sort of sales you're doing, but there's talking of edge There was an email that was shared which was like the subject line was like you're in the files, you know As you click it and it's that only joking Actually just what is due to yeah, I mean that has to be either a really hilarious kid or Just incredible. No, I honestly, I don't even know if AI could write that because that's so that's so funny Not without being told to yeah, but but my only addition to what you said I grew it everything said is that sales is one of the interesting ones where It's obviously nuanced, but the summary is there's certain parts of sales that is already kind of like I don't want to say lower level, but you're kind like let's say a SDR as it sales development rep like a lot of yeah If you're working in sass sales

51:17It's very different to sales in a store and sales for a consumer product like very different right and if you've got a sales pipeline There's new sales versus existing sales right existing technically sales like account management growing revenue for an existing book of business right You can also throw in partnerships because that was basically my jobs right was all three of those things And so in the team I would have this new business person new business development their job is to like go get new revenue Then as a team for existing You're spending you know you they make us X amount money now grow this revenue and that is that all sorts of parts to it um, and then there's partnerships which is not always like straight up revenue focus But the new business sales part if the scale warrants it you normally have people supporting that sales person So you're only going to bring in the big boy sale person When you know that person's vetted you've already pre-sold them you know, okay, this is a valid lead

52:19We got the right person in the room In my world is that oh you brought the CMO to the table now let's meet them in person and fly there and do all this stuff so to me the value of face-to-face sales for certain types of businesses will actually be even more important in terms of You know, we talk about a time in abundance the rare the rare thing is what is valuable So if everyone's hitting you with AI agents talking to you on the phone pitching you You know that no longer stands out and the person who flew all the way there to see you and actually explain like a human would stand out But you're not going to do that to sell them, you know pair of shoes You're going to sell them a ten million dollar contract for SAS or ad sales or whatever else you're doing So I do think zoom in now for someone who's listening to our pod who's interested in You know, I think we have two different types of people is like the career people which is you know a different skill set versus someone who's maybe going out on their own

53:19The only thing I say there is you can never go wrong with learning how to sell like you're always going to have to do that in any form Especially when you're self-employed or doing stuff yourself and that Isn't just hey, I would buy my thing. That's also selling on a landing page Especially marketing sales. That's why they go hand in hand with each other um, so That's why I think it's not completely there But of course like parts of it you're going to replace and so that's that's that's my only other thought on sales Um, all right, Jack anything else. Yeah, anything else on that before we wrap it up here Great pod. No, I think it's a good pod. Keep the energy. Yeah, I hope you guys enjoyed that and uh, yeah We'll hopefully have Jack trunk back next week and we will see you all next week Cheers