20260910-0000

12:30... Ah! Did you just guess this hell was Empire? Might be guaranteed! I'm Chinese, but didn't say I should! But now you have to find me over fifteen minutes early! � insist video and video what a black august means to us from the dugout not to be confused with just dugout who the hell knows what dugout on youtube and now we're in the 13 minutes a reflection on how black august got started and thoughts on the relationship of oppression in prisons

13:33and in general society how the state tests things on prisoners for instituting them on the unincarcerated like the electric problem of the ice just purchased what does it mean to develop discipline without reproducing off the authoritarianism how can steady become a form of preparation how can remember in the political prisoners change the way we understand the situation with no blogs in midweek special featuring sub-opt media and crime think from

14:44the legal practices of the three groups that have recently been designated terrorist by the US feds including the two of the three are Palestinian groups legal specifics are cited for those who understand and about language

16:35and I can tell you're mildly uncomfortable let's make this a discussion of an article let's say here's one ecorathical is insurrectionary anarchism and eco fashion history of anti-tech extremism

17:46and I just unbuttoned my suit coat well I guess that was a solid 938 minutes of top notch podage that just got a newt basically biodacity and a board back undeterred undeterred no doubt so I guess like we should talk about this article the outlet the news outlet from from from where it came where it was originally published right like we did last time

18:55for the recording up the story yeah what was it homeland defense today dot so yeah this article this is not your this is not an this type article in that where like an anarchist wrote it for consideration by other anarchists right this is like we posted from a website called homeland security today and I went on the I was look I looked at the page for the editorial board and there's these pictures of everyone on the editorial board that and the pictures told me a lot because they're they're all they're all like maybe suits with like the flag

19:56like just to the side of the head and a sort of ruffled gray backdrop you know like they were on the they were on the like you know state department like headshot assembly line right that's how it looked and then yeah looked at the the bios of all these people like yeah like they're all current or former like state department ice dhs officials right so this is like so yeah so this news outlet is like just basically like you know buying for buying for the US government and so that's important context important context for this history of anti-tech extremism and then you had an interesting point about then add and add that you saw I'm sort of prompted all of this yeah all of this

21:04what did that bring up here there was a pop up yeah where you go when you when you go on the website and it was it was like selling surveillance robots or some kind of camera type AI monster twisted at time and time yeah and so well what are brought up is that well this is going to be I'm going to say I'm going to I'm going to be here slightly off what I said the first time and say that then how I know but then but then the thing I remember saying precisely won't sound won't make as much sense yeah but it's like you know they're like multiple dimensions thing where one thing changes and like changes the whole thing this is why recording on tape is cool like when I mean like it was it made this recording like one time

22:08and we were recording it on tape and then the my friend had made a recording like years before that on like the same tape and we were going over it but we like forgot to like mute certain tracks or something like that and there was this vocal track from the years ago recording of my friend singing and we and so we were doing playback and we heard it with like the thing we just recorded and it was like this ghost and we left like parts of it in and like certain spots and sounds but that's not going to happen no but anyway you were saying that the ad for the twisted autonomous on that you've refined your your reaction to it I wouldn't say it's refined I just it's different I have a different additional thing yeah how are you feeling well one is just it seems like the website the thing I said originally is that it just makes me think that the whole thing the whole website is trying to create a market for the things that they're selling

23:16right right this was in response to the question always this out of New Zallegge do we think it's does it have a stake in like inflating this threat or something yeah okay yeah but I mean you could say a similar thing to government stuff too right because like there's so much overlap between government contractors and these industries and like state policy or whatever that is kind of in this is hard to tell what you know what I mean like what the actual motivations are but whatever I mean that's maybe besides the point but I was I was thinking you know I didn't know that these people are retired government demons but now that I know that it makes me think that like you know sometimes I my job like these people come back to work and it's just so yeah I'm always so confused as to why if you're retired you continue working and like these people all have these government jobs I probably earn a bunch of money I'm guessing maybe they didn't but I'm it seems unlikely that they're participating in this website out of like survival necessity

24:35so it's just really strange true every time I see like old people that can retire and are like comfortable enough come back and be like actually I want to start this website that sells robot monsters to people that I make scared it's really strange yeah maybe it's not what we're talking about but just the like I think there is some relationship between that and the hall of the world between that and the hollowness of people's lives of you often and like that when they stop working they like can't do anything else and have to let go back to doing the thing I don't know I mean I yeah maybe I'm putting myself in their place a little more but I would like I would feel pretty bad working for some horrible government entity that's like I'm going to do it. I'm probably killing a bunch of people and then to retire and be like actually I'm going to like start a private version of this to contribute to it more as like seems to be present.

25:47So yeah I see your point I think maybe in this case like the edit where I was looking at like the editorial board you know which is like not I don't think that's the people who are like copy editing the like daily news brief and chill like that you know what I mean they're just bonding it or something. I think there I mean my guess is that the editorial board is supposed to signal like the credibility you know what I mean like they're not like the work a day they're not like the work a day journalist or something I think they're they're just sort of like meeting up periodically to like feel you know to like make like exactly creative decisions with like hand waving gestures and like maybe like a lot many like a lightboard or something and then to like have there and then to sort of like receive like cocktail visits from like people who currently work in the stage apartment.

27:04Yeah like to like meet up with someone and then who's like pushing like something or another and then they like bring that suggestion back like or something and then they like to the news outlet you know I mean I think they probably haven't and because they did all things for all. Yeah like the like I think like the being on the editorial board of the website like this is probably just like one small part of their sort of like power brokerage page entry or something but I think I mean I think it also just tells us like who they're trying you know who the news outlet wants to seem credible towards and it's like other state partner. That's what it's all about. So like these are your people. Yeah yeah but I think you're absolutely like I think your point stands for sure about like yeah when people sort of needlessly continue to work because they have like

28:13having it sort of like to develop like any other forms of kind of like a validation or meaning or something or there's I think that's true. I mean in the case of I so counter mud the thing I was saying counter myself. I do I imagine working for the state department as being like the experience is probably one where you can point to having like a tangible effect on the world in a way that probably you can't have as a retiree or whatever. Like they're able to really fuck up people's lives basically and kind of like shift reality for a lot of people and I imagine retiring from that like the loss of that power might be pretty depressing for people that thrive on that.

29:21So I'm glad I'm glad they're staying active in that old age not getting discouraged and just continuing on. They sell a lot of robots. But anyway about the this article where do we want to start? Well I think like one thing you pointed out so just to like reiterate for everyone we're looking at eco radicalism insurrectionary anarchism and eco fascism a history of anti tech extremism. Like it pages long it's pretty like the research is I think like pretty pretty substantial I mean it covers a lot of ground like I think you know it seems like it was probably it was probably written by like we should have checked the byline harder but some kind of like analyst that like a thing to like that kind of shit.

30:35Or at least it's like synthesizing like certain amount of researchers in the vein and basically yeah it there's like three headings that are each of these currents let's say according to the article of anti tech extremism. And they're at once like all very different and at the same time the article is sort of asserting all of these likenesses and similarities between them. And the way that happens is kind of and I guess we could talk about each one kind of individually but maybe just like there's an important thread between all of them that relates to the way that they're flattened and that thread is a Kaczynski. Because they're basically saying oh these ideologies these three ideologies are you know really different but there's this cross pollination it says largely due to the legacy of Kaczynski.

31:48And then throughout it's kind of interesting how they're pointing out that these groups that would consider each other enemies are citing are like both citing Kaczynski and then Kaczynski is like you know disavowing all these ideologies at the same time or whatever. So I just thought. But maybe we should do want to look at each of them at a time or something else for that. Well, yeah, I remember the first time we recorded pointing out that like think part of the way they're trying to make this a scary thing is by linking these different tendencies to each other and not like this is this is maybe a different kind of villain for the

32:56State Department to grow after because it's like a cross as political lines. Which I think. Well, the flattening of these ideologies like serves to inflate the threat of this internal enemy which is anti-tech extremism. Yeah, inflating the scareiness of this yeah like a balloon by saying the left the leftist and the anarchist and the ecofgashist kind of right wing people all agree on this thing and so which presents a scarier enemy. Yeah, they're saying they're all the same they're all part of the same broader which is the anti-tech.

34:00Do you think eco radicals instructionary anarchists and ecofgashists are a part of the same anti-tech movement? No, I mean if you allow well, okay, okay, are they part of different anti-tech movements? Are they all anti-tech? I mean, I'm not sure what classifying them would be why that would be useful necessarily to like find out whether they are not I guess. Are you anti-tech? Yeah, well then one in the if like wouldn't it be weird if like. You and you and the ecofgashists were all anti-tech?

35:05What do you want to? Well, I can share enemies with people without being part of the same movement. That's true. Maybe that's what this article is saying. Yeah, I mean there is a clear distinction that they make an article that like the ecofgashists point to like specific groups of people as being the problem. I mean basically they're saying anyone that's not white people is the issue here. And white people are the rightful inheritors of the land and everyone else is fucking that up. Yeah, yeah, the ecofgashists according to the article like are for the preservation of the environment.

36:12But it's specifically so that superior groups of races will have continued to have access to these natural resources. And it describes the roots of this in kind of like Nazi racist mysticism, the blood and soil stuff. And it talks about how the modern basically it's like saying like a lot of these people who talk about the great replacement theory that that's like a sort of like hand in hand with the ecofgashists outlook. Yeah, it's a contesting white people's position as like the owners of land.

37:13Yeah, which I mean that is really different from a biosensory position, which is like where the disagreement with kazinsky is to. So maybe they're kazinsky is like, well, yeah, I don't know. I just I don't know like. And the article says kazinsky is not biosensory. No, yeah, he's not. I mean, I haven't read a stuff for a while, so I don't. That's the other thing too. It's like I noticed reading this the way they lay out the story. I'm like, oh, yeah, for sure. Like this all like checks out, you know, like it's like easy to follow all the connections and stuff. But I have, I mean, even though I'm I've read into all of these things that they're discussing, but it's been a while. And so without having the stuff in front of me, I'm like, did they say that? Or is that like, is that quote like totally out of context or like, you know, which is I just obviously don't trust this media source to not be trying to be a specific picture.

38:26So what did that come up you at a certain part? It definitely came. It came up with them. I mean, it just came up right now because you said that they said that kazinsky's not biosensory. Uh-huh. Biosensory. And I just don't. I'm not so sure that that's true. Okay. They're like saying so that they're saying that they're linking kazinsky to the fascists a little bit by saying that like what he's valuing the environment as like a resource more or less for people. And the fascists are saying it's resource specific for a specific group of people. And kazinsky is saying like for people more generally. And then the eco centric people, which they're saying like includes ELF, ALF, but then also ITS.

39:30The eco radical. The eco radical people would would disagree with both the fascist and kazinsky. Yeah, yeah. I'm not maybe I just don't know for whatever, but that feels to me. I'm not so sure that that disagreement is as pronounced as these people are saying it is. Yeah, I mean, they're like, oh, they're kind of like, oh, like all the so many of the eco radicals sort of site. Because the is his inspiration, but then there's kind of like they're like, oh, but he actually belongs more to the to the instruction anarchists, which I was sort of like. And but the end based on the question of of the like like as we're saying like with respect to being biosinteresting. Yeah, so they're point being there like the authors like straining to align everyone in this article with kazinsky.

40:39Yeah, it's like all talking about kazinsky alongside all of these people and then be like, but he's actually different in this way that lets me align him like with all of these people. All right, it's like that kind of which I mean, I think the point they're trying to make is by using kazinsky in this way, or it seems like what they're getting is like all of these people have within or as a foundation is like hyper violent ideology or whatever. Because in this case, like kind of like where they're all coming from, which isn't again, it's just not actually true and like I think with it's more true than a lot of the other people probably, but even with them that's really flattening. And it definitely is not true with the insurrection anarchist people that I that I just fully disagree with that what isn't true with that.

41:40Because in ski is like one of their like central figures or something or like kind of like a foundational figure the way he is with it or like whatever. That's just not true. I mean, they were in serrationary anarchism as a lineage was like around where before kazinsky. Yeah, pretty pretty pretty foundational on a way to the green energy strain. Well, you're sure it was like when he when he got popped like that was one like the green energy pulls were like talking about him in the media. And they like and they were having none of the human's ears in hell like a more like had a correspondence and a falling out. Yeah, yeah, that's at that time when green energy stuff was maybe probably a tie or something. But yeah, but I think it is about as you're saying, like the anti that this assertion, I mean, it's one of the first sentences is like anti tech violence is violence is likely to significantly worse.

42:59And they're using kazinsky as this figure to sort of raise the the they're aligning him with all of these groups in order to sort of like when credibility to this assertion that anti tech violence is likely to get worse. That the old creation from business. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's a part that was interesting to me about the violence where they're basically like basically like the violence increases when like the sort of like social releases are like outpaced by like institutions ability to like remediate or placate them or sometimes.

44:03I kind of I don't know, I was wondering if I think that's true. No, sure. It makes sense on its face. And they're giving AI as like the example. If they're saying the violence increases. If a system like can't consume the criticism or whatever. Yeah, an AI being the example of something where it's like, it's change, it's going to it's like changing the way you like. And like food and your job and like it's like changing like everything about people's lives like really dramatically like all at once. And like fast enough that like whatever there's not like sort of these policy things that are like moving out some of the awkwardness. There's not you know, and I used to check out.

45:08Yeah, I mean, it's a. It's yeah, I mean, I would say they're right or I agree with that. So, it's like, that people are more likely to resort to violence in that situation. I mean, that kind of like tumble or flux. I guess that's just sort of like, I guess there's probably kind of like historical analogies. Like what they're calling violence like in another accounting historical accounting like someone would be like, oh, was there was the industrial revolution. And it was a time of social up people and like revolutionary format because everything was changing about people's lives. Like you would hear that. That makes sense. But then there, but then here they're just like, yeah, it's not revolutionary necessarily.

46:19I mean, they're what I wouldn't say that they do. Like this is like this is like, this is like, I mean, they mentioned, I mean, they're like, they're like, no, they're. I mean, they're what they're saying they mentioned Sam Altman getting getting a task in the beginning and they mentioned like the threat, you know, data center anti data center. So no, they're not sending revolution. They're saying like to the people leading this news outlet. They're saying like, people are going to comfort you and your shit like your biggest assets and like try to book it up because like all this shit is changing in society. And like people are like are like pissed about it. You know, which is like true. Yeah, it's less about political shifts. It's more about your house might get modeled. Yeah, it's like literally like, yeah, like, oh, you're big like data center project like some like, you know, someone's going to try to burn it down.

47:25That's looking to your house. People went to Sam Almanza twice in a week. Especially was crazy. The mall at the top one night and then people drive by and shoot a gun at the window. The car to the next night. I was like, few nights later or something. Yeah, must be an attractive house. Like pack heads. Oh, yeah. I see. Yeah, I mean, that's a good point. It's like less political and more just talking to the class. Yeah, that's like invested in these industries. For sure. It's more. Yeah, I mean, honestly, it kind of makes me want to read these kind of websites all over. I mean, I almost never do. I'm like thankful that this article made it into an use. I love reading the enemies crust for sure.

48:25We like read like the arrows are we like the real estate. For business. Should I talk? Business. That's a good title. Biz news. Missed chance without without rock second Z. Oh, no, it is B. I have B. I. Z. I mean, I'm just any W. It could be more buzzer. It's generalize. Yeah. I mean, it does. I mean, the nice thing about it does show that they're scared. Or at least like whoever decided to use this. If like if I were to take this as basically an attempt at marketing their product, then that means some marketing team was like, oh, there's already fear there. We can exploit.

49:26And though like rolling class or whatever. And and so that's like a good indicator that they're like. There's some amount of self awareness that they're pissing people off really bad. And it might like become dangerous for them. Which is like yeah, I mean, I'm so far removed from that world. It's hard to know how true that is. But the fact that this like pretty long article made it to the side and everything kind of tells you something. It's just crazy because I don't know anyone that's upset about AI. In your like in your sort of job life. Just anywhere anywhere else upset about the state of things that I know.

50:26So I wonder where they're getting this. Probably like oh yeah, they're calling calling that AI hallucinations. Are they like miss interpret data? The AI misinterpreted data. Yeah, like when when AI is used to like scan a bunch of data and come up with some analysis thing. It can like come up with something totally wrong. And the technical is that it's having a hallucination. How do you feel about I mean I'm like that's well, that's crazy. That's really interesting because I mean I feel like that gives the AI too much credit. Because to me like hallucination is like something like you you have all of we you know we have all of whatever our senses.

51:27And there and like not only do we like have them we can we like they sort of like can be wait what am I trying to say. I'm trying to think of like a hallucination just seems like another wrinkle in like sensory sophistication. Like I don't want to believe that the AI is like has the capacity to have the sensory experience that you would that you would need. You know the sensory capacity that you would need in order to hallucinate. Yeah. Yeah, but I think a lot of the people that are really a part of the like techie world are they they think of the world as just data input.

52:33Whether you're a computer or not. And so everything is actually a calculable like data processing thing that's happening and it's like either happening in a human brain or in a computer. And so misinterpreting some data causes a hallucination whether you're a computer person or a dog or anything. Yeah, yeah, they think they think my like a padee key split can be reduced to ones and zeros. Exactly. Yeah, not having things out of this world. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they're missing out. They're definitely missing out. My soreness two days after jujitsu ones and zeros.

53:36This is an indiminable shit. Totally. Yeah, I mean, it's a little scary, you know. Wish. Like, no, you're saying it's comforting. But no, like seeing an incredibly powerful enemy be afraid. It's a little scary. Yeah, it's like both kind of nice, right? There's some kind of satisfaction. Also, like, it's like the satisfaction is a little fleeting for me because then I start thinking about what really scared. Like, yeah, I don't know, like when the US government declares someone there and it just looks like mass death usually. Like the, yeah, for sure.

54:36Like if this segment of the ruling class is like we're being attacked in this way, then like thinking. And then you start to think about how sort of sort of fun, sort of like how easy it would be for them to sort of like. Hit back and retaliate in like much more intense. Right. And like, can you imagine being in a cell with some like eco fascists? Because the state declared he was like part of the same.

55:38Well, I like, I like maybe, maybe this kind of like, aligns closest with, uh, ITS. Like if, if I was to choose, or if I was to choose like what I'm about to say where it falls in options given by the article. I like thinking about all of these things as like, like an immune response to. Not so rational necessarily, but it's just like, yeah, this world is kind of like society is like so committed to creating objects of everything and turning and like, yeah, turning everything into ones and zeros and stuff, including every kind of experience of life. And then like there's a response, there's like kind of an immune response by life itself.

56:46And I can look all kinds of ways and how people rational like the kind of the kind of like anger and frustration that happens for some people and they want to strike back at the thing, you know, that they're maybe even having hard time defining. The way they rationalize it looks a bunch of different ways and it's not like good or bad or whatever. It's just like, it's just a response, this immune response, like the same way that like, um, crazy ass weather patterns are an immune response to treating the world as like a thing for us to make. Policom computers, you know, and so it's not it's like it's not it's actually the political justification for why these people are doing things is like kind of secondary.

57:49And so in that maybe I'm kind of agreeing with the article in a way that there's that like sort of like social, the sort of like generalized social anxiety about tech is like, you know, sort of like underlying all the way. And all of these sort of like rebellious like acts and it doesn't the and the point is less like about how or if the people carrying out those acts sort of describe what they're doing ideologically. And there's more about what does that sort of like say about how people's whatever like invaseration and anxiety.

58:53Yeah, because I do think a lot of that stuff is kind of just circumstantial. It's like, I mean, I, you know, it's like people find themselves in this setting where like I think, for example, like libertarian stuff is like pretty prevalent in the US, you know, and people that have some like rebellious anti-state thing are pretty likely to find that as like an avenue for their frustration. And I think it has less to do with. It's just it's just an accident, you know, and then maybe maybe later they find anarchy or something else, you know, maybe come critical of their initial exposure, but like maybe not, you know. And what the thing, but the thing kind of the starting point is like similar where people are like recognize the state maybe as like having some power that they don't like.

1:00:02Yeah, yeah.