#147 The Huntress Podcast: Outsider #8

0:00You are listening to the sounds of the ride-on network. To confront the ultimate killers, I must construct the ultimate alias. Hey, who is that lady? I think she could fly. To combat the murders who destroy my family, crush my own life on their way to consuming everything. I must become a greater, more fearsome destroyer. I'm out of control! MSMI killed his lady. To track down the animals who prey on the innocent, I must stalk them first. I am no longer their query. I am the Hunters. Hello and welcome to the Hunters podcast. This is episode 147, brought to you by the ride-on network. I'm AJ.

1:00I'm Laurel. And on this episode of the Hunters podcast, we are talking about Helena Bertonelli in the pages of outsiders. Number eight, this has a cover date of March 2004. Nightwing. What is this? The Hunters in, Nightwing out what? Laurel? Yeah, got to love the cover copy here. Yeah, the cover copy. I'm holding this in my hands. This is when I really started deep diving into DC Comics. My origin story, which I'll talk about every once in a while, is that in the 90s, when I was in high school, I just pretty much read whatever someone gave me. So they're giving me stuff like Kingdom Come, Dark Night Returns, where that's cool stuff, but that's not the day today, like what's going on in DC, right? So reading that is like, I'm just reading, you know, Greek mythology figures.

2:03I'm like, okay, I'm reading this. This is pretty cool, but I don't know what's going on in the, in between time, in the meantime of what's in DC. And then like every once in a while, like someone, they're giving me like a four issue run of Daredevil, when he is in law school, that kind of stuff. But I was just reading random stuff. And then in the late 90s, early 2000s, I was reading a lot of indie comics. So in 2004, that's when I was like, women, let me go back in the comic book store. And I just asked for recommendations. And I was just reading anything. I was reading a lot of ultimate universe stuff. I enjoyed Ultimate Fantastic Four, Ultimate Iron Man, Ultimate Avengers. And I would just read them, random DC stuff, Phil Hester's, Kevin Smith's, Green Arrow, what have you. And this, so this has been a really sort of like leaning towards DC. And it was, you know, no man's laying all that stuff in back universe stuff. So this, I had a lot of fun with this.

3:07This is like when I come in. So I don't have real like, yeah, like in 1983, I was doing this and I was reading this book. Like, I don't have those personal touchstones. But what we're talking about today, I have stories about this. And now it's been over 20 years. Oh, Lord, don't say that. That's true. Oh my God. So we're talking about a period piece we are. I know. But oh my gosh, I don't like thinking about it that way. Yeah. I'm getting old. Because I'm not getting old, Laurel, I've been old. Like I'm a school teacher, right? And one of my students is my coworker, one of my former students, no. And the thing is, people are like, does that make you feel old? Like no, dude, when I taught her, I was old then. This is not a new thing. It's not like, oh, I'm just now becoming old.

4:09I've been old. Folks, basically look, here's the deal. I think I was like 25, 26, 24 years old and best by like really did a layout change. That's when I became old. They move to CDs, where's going on? That's when I became old. I was old at 25, guys. So anyway, so Laurel, this cover, what do you think about this? I think it's quite dynamic. Yes, that is very good word for it. There's a lot of motion going on, despite the fact that they're basically in a stalemate. It looks like they're pushing against each other. She's holding his arms, he's pushing against her, you know, kind of look. But at the same time, man, does she look unhappy? Very angry face. He's got gritted teeth angry face. It's like, what is going on here? Very intriguing. And we've seen, you know, this is well after that Nightwing Huntress crossover, where they were getting along and now all of a sudden this kind of relationship has popped up

5:15and it's like, whoa, what is going on here? I love it. Absolutely love this cover. I think it draws you in. I love this cover. Just from my point of view, I think it's perfect. I think it's excellent. This is awesome. I think this is what it's all about. I love this era. Warts and all. It's the reason why this era of DC is the reason why we're podcasting about this and not fantastic for if it weren't for the things that were going on in DC at this time. I would be doing an X-Men or a fantastic for podcasts at the right on that work. Wow. Yeah. And this isn't even like, there's some things in this book that makes me like this outsiders issue eight. There are things in this book that make me angry. Yeah, there's some crazy stuff in here. Yeah. It's some cringe stuff. It's a lot of like, you know, people are going like, oh, you couldn't do that nowadays. It's like, no, back then I was going, why are you doing it then?

6:18I was in 2004. I was reading and going, why are you doing this here? And I'll talk more about that later. But I'll tell you what I want to talk more about right now. And that's our Patreon subscribers, Laurel. And that's Alan Wright. He's bold outlawed, boldoutlaw.com. He writes about Robin Hood and pop culture and history, DJ Merck. He also goes by DJ bandwidth on music platforms, Delvin Sims, the pie crash himself, Tim Price, and please, on this feed, check out Outcasters, Avengers, Under Siege. You just dropped issue one. I got to get the books so I can read along with it, Outcasters, Under Siege, Avengers. Check it out. Clark Trent, friend of the right on network, Kevin Fedorkowski, Kevin Fedorkowski. We have our podcast and Mark Blair. Listen to him on the upcoming checkmate, all right? We got a checkmate podcast at the right on network, Laurel and I were cooking it up.

7:21Get ready, guys. Paul Hicks over in Australia, you got to love the Paul. Our own Laurel Phillips, thank you, Laurel. We have the Irredeemable Shag. He's at the Fire and Water podcast network. They do a lot of great things there. He's a great guy and he does a lot of cool stuff and check out JSA in the 1990s. I mean, man, that podcast is a camp loose, Shag, the Irredeemble Shag, check him out. Shoe Fly Pie, Shoe Fly Pie, Justin Steiner, Rick from Jeff and Rick present unpacking the power of Power Pack, Chris Pine, one, and listen to him and myself. We're talking about the Beatles documentary Get Back by Peter Jackson. Get Back. The podcast is called 30 Minutes to Get Back. Check us out at 30getback at gmo.com where we are covering that nine hour documentary

8:2230 minutes at a time. And if you're like, wait a minute, hold on, I have too many podcasts, I have too much stuff going. We promise it's going to be like under 32 minutes, 30 minutes, 30 to get back, 30 minutes to get back. Check it out. Bill Beer of The Back Pud, April 5k, check her out at the Manhattan Project talking about sign felt in friends, Jordan Holt, the great Jordan Holt, and Clinton Robinson, a fan film, Fridays, and call for your comics. Thank you for going to patreon.com slash right on network, I'll put that link in the show notes. And I'm still doing the unboxings, I know it's been maybe like eight days since I've done one. So I'll try to do one tonight or whatever, but we appreciate it. Thank you because we just want to keep creating what they call content. So back to this outsiders, Laurel, again, this cover, and I like the fact that it looks like Huntress has the upper hand. I can't remember, because my memory just is failing me.

9:26I don't know if this is my introduction to Helena Bertanelli or not, because there's a lot of backstory to this with Nightwing, this team that I didn't know about, but I just remember thinking, wow, this is cool, Laurel. Yeah, I mean, I was reading DC at the time, but this was a corner of the universe that I may or may not have been. I think I read these after they came out in the library. I think that's how I was, because I was like, I remember reading it at the time because I was following along and I remembered some of the other things going on, but I don't own them. So that's the only thing I can think of is how I kept abreast of what was going on in this book. I own a few issues here and there, but it wasn't when I was directly following, you know, month after month. But I was obviously doing DC Comics. I was in pretty heavy, and it was nice to have a way to read even more books without having to buy anything.

10:28God bless libraries, you know? So I could keep up with a lot more books that way. So I think that's how I kept up with some of this. And then I got really into it and started, you know, keeping an eye out of like key issues that I might want to pick up on the shelves. Laura, do you have a synopsis for this one? Yes, I do. Outsiders number eight, Coverdated March 2004, writer, Judd Winnick, pencil, or Tom Rainey, Inker, Sean Parsons, colorist, Gina Going, letter, comma, craft, associate editor, Lissa Hawking's, editor, Eddie Berganza. It is entitled Devil's Work. A city bus full of passengers is hijacked and driven into a huge fiery pentagram where they are, unfortunately, set on fire and sacrificed. It was, it was set. Anyway, the Russian mobster Ishmael Greger is using this sacrifice to help Timothy Karns,

11:31aka Sabak, reclaim his powers. This was given the power of six demon lords that he summoned by saying the words Sabak. But after time spent in Iron Heights, penitentiary, his larynx was removed to prevent him speaking. Now Greger believes he can help Karns retrieve his demon lords powers with this fiery sacrifice as well as several more rituals. Elsewhere, Outsiders team members Indigo and shift are having a date, while team leaders Arsenal and Nightwing argue over the Huntress joining the team, while Arsenal is healing from several gunshot wounds. Nightwing is not pleased, but Huntress abrasively tells him she can follow his lead and be part of a team. The argument is interrupted by Grace, who has called into report that she, Jade and Thunder have found the burned bus of passengers as well as several ritual statues set up in a

12:31pentagram. Arsenal and Nightwing recognize the statues as ones they found when they captured the Tattooed Man. So, Nightwing and Huntress head into the prison undercover as police officers and an assistant DA to interview the Tattooed Man. He's not responding to questioning until Huntress finally gives up and kicks him in the head. She pounds his head into the metal table a few more times for good measure and suddenly, the Tattooed Man reveals the statues were for Russian mobster Ishmael Gregor, and it had something to do with a man called Sabaq. Nightwing immediately recognizes that name and radios oracle for the current location of Gregor. Even as they speak, Gregor and Corns are conducting the final ritual in a room dug far below Gregor's Venet Greenwich Village home. This Jade and Thunder burst into the house and fight their way down into the cavernous room, but they are too late.

13:34Gregor has finished the ritual by stabbing himself in Corns with a sword in a powerful pentagram while calling Sabaq. The ritual succeeded, and heroes find themselves facing a demonically transformed Gregor. That is outsiders number eight, stay tuned for more discussion. The Outcasters starts a bold new direction by covering Avengers under siege with Earth's mightiest podcasters, Outcasters under siege, coming in 2026, only on the right on network. Welcome back to the Hunter's Podcast. So AJ, this had quite a lot going on in it, because team books has a lot of characters.

14:34I like that the team is sort of spread out in this one, you know, summer doing the date night and summer having this big discussion headquarters and summer out in the field. So it's not, you know, one big team activity, which is kind of a nice way to start a story arc. So I really enjoyed the structure of this particular issue. I'm very interested what you think, you know, not just structure, but content wise. What did you think of this one? So my emotions were pulling in all directions in this one. I think you're correct as far as there's good writing here and here as far as plotting and individual story beats. I like the team. I like the fact that because I like passing a torch type stuff. So like the whole setup of this where we're the next in line to be the Justice League, if you will, or whatever, I enjoy this. So and I like the fact that, you know, outsiders and some of the characters you know, some of the characters are new to the audience and they may not be a list heavy hitters.

15:35But to them as a package, I like the fact that they're in New York City. They're not in Gotham or one of the fictional towns they make up in DC. So it feels grounded. The whole thing with this book, it started off with Arsenal and Nightwing saying, you know, we grew up in Teen Titans and it was like a family, but I don't want to get personal. Let's have a, you know, professional business. They were talking about how for how the outsiders, yeah, the outsiders. So I enjoyed all of this. There were some things in this. So they're doing this thing where I can't catch them. So like Judwine, the keys are right on this. And it starts off where instead of just telling us the bus. There was a bus full of people and they were fried. So it's like, all right, statistics, numbers. Judwine, the key starts off by telling us this story of a woman. That woman's name is Angela Carper and given a backstory.

16:37And like, you already want wanting to root for her. But she's murdered with these other people. So they personalized the story. That's a good writing technique. And I'm just kind of skewed out because although I really enjoy this era, there's also skevy things going on in this. And I don't mean just Arsenal, so patch. So yeah, it's Judwine, Nick and this editor, Eddie Berganza, where there's things in this book that I like. And then they take these turns where I'm like, you son of a guns, but I can't catch them. So it's just like, you know, I can't complain too much because I enjoy this era and this story and this book, like Tom Rainey, the artist. I just, I just remember loving this stuff. But yeah, oh, and then they had the origin of this. And I get it.

17:37It's the like, hey, it's an adult book and all that, but is it? And it's hard for me to make a complaint because like, okay, if I recent city, I'm like, okay, cool. You got violence and sex and all that stuff in there. But it like, it's this off the path thing. This is on the path. And it's like, you know, who's a little good, little edge lord of you? You're a good, little edge lord. Oh, good for you, you good, little edge lord. And I remember there's things that happen in like these issues eight, nine, 10, 11, where I would just shake my head and judge why, Nick. But now I understand that the editor also has something to do with that because since 2019, I've been on this journey of reading post crisis Superman. And once you get into like 2002 and Eddie Berghansa is editing the Superman books, it's just certain things they do in there where I'm just kind of like, I shake my head and I'm just like, um, Do you think it's also because Dan Didio is in charge?

18:40I say it can be because things are really dark under him. Yeah, it can, it can be that as well. So like, um, the whole thing with the elite, I never really could get down with them because I remember like they did this just as league elite and just the way the artists would draw them like everybody looks ski-vy. It looked like putting a Mickey and a Mountain Dew commercial. I just, just so anyway, but let's talk about this book, Lord. Well, I, I do have to say the parts of it that I found disturbing is you do get some graphic violence and the aftermath of graphic violence, which is all these burnt people and it is on page the remains, which is upsetting. Uh, I do appreciate that we do have a purpose in some ways for doing the shock values because thunder is throwing up. So at least it was shock for, you know, there is a story reason to have these people, um,

19:46the aftermath, but on the other hand, it's on page, so that's kind of tricky. And you see characters reacting to it and being disturbed. So we have thunder who is a new hero and she's freaked out by this and she talks to Jade who I love like I've just never been introduced to all these characters and it's like Arsenal and Nightwing, they're running the group, but like you need someone like Jade with the experience and like I'm going to be the ones actually in the field and a lot of these characters, they're not going to feel comfortable telling you concerns to Nightwing and Arsenal because they're going to think your tools or whatever, but we can talk to Jade. And I like the fact that it's written in there, Jade saying, you know, because thunder's like, yeah, I look like a rookie on and Jade says, I would be more disturbed if you were not disturbed by this than if you took this and tried. So I'm just, that's good, right? And like that's some good stuff to remind the audience like, hey, don't just look at a

20:47bus full of people who have been pom paid and keep flipping. No, you should be raising an eyebrow. And if you forgot to raise an eyebrow, the characters are talking about like, well, that was disturbing. What do you think of the fake swearing because Grace, you know, she's saying, she doesn't know what, but it's pretty blah, blah, blah, blah, ed up. You know, you know, I think it's great because Grace, Grace is, you got to love her, you know, you got to love her. Well, they do that a lot in this book, you know, they, they try to push the adults of this book. And in the fact that we've got this, all these women get ready to have this sex ritual with the guy and we got all the bloody corpse thing going on and then we've got, you know, the, and when they're arguing, they're using words and it's like, hmm, and guess, and here's a deal. When it was the sex ritual going on, I just think, Judd, Wynick, Eddie Braganza, come on,

21:48guess. Yeah. And it's really risque, like, there should be nipples on show, but for, but they're smooth instead for no apparent reason. So it's a place where it's upon a time they were there. It's a place where, you know, what this really feels like, it really feels like, man, you know, when I was a teenager, I wish they would have done these things. Now we're in there, like, no, we're going to do these things because we're going to tell like comics is just for kids. You're not going to make fun of us for reading comics anymore. Watch this. Ooh. So, right into us, I fell as opposed to GMO.com, like, were you, were you reading DC at the time, like 2000s to 2008 and tell me like podcasts that's covering this era because it seemed like podcasts are either covering things that's coming out now or like the 80s and 90s or even go to an age. But it seems like this kind of arts, the arts, like it seemed like, I don't think that's

22:52a sweet spot for anyone, so I just want to know about that. But yeah, I just jet-wine it. Okay. All right. Go ahead. Well, one of the things he does do well though is relationships between the characters. So I like the relationship, Inc. and Shift. I'm calling him Shift. I don't think he's decided what his name's going to be yet. That's right. But I like that relationship and, you know, how that is portrayed. I, despite the fact that Nightwing's being a jerk, the relationship between him and Arsenal is good, you know, the conflict there and how it's portrayed is good. I love Grace Thunder, Jay, you know, that whole interaction because Thunder is new to this whole life and I love that interaction. So I think he does a good job of bonding the characters to each other and making the personalities work. Yes. He does the witty banter, the repartar. Nets and bolts is kind of like a 90's Simpsons.

23:54That's a deep cut, guys. That's something Judwine said. He had a comic strip called Nets and Bolts and one of them, it was just like kind of a single panel thing where there were missiles coming out the toilet and the kid goes, Mom, we have missiles again. And I remember him saying like, oh, yeah, sign, I feel like I could write that in my sleep. I can write that in my sleep. So yeah, he does the witty banter, the in between time, the in the meantime. And I thought the writing between shift and indigo, it was wonderful and sweet. Yeah. Yeah. The way he's able to write different relationships is, you know, what I want to emphasize. We've got the sort of romantic kind of look then we've got the leaders then we've got, of course, the hunters who we're going to definitely get more into how she's written. And then sort of like the girl side of the team, you know, it's almost like girls night out, only superheroes doing superhero stuff. The Tom Rainey, the pencil, Sean Parsons, the anchor, Jin going the colorist, just wonderful.

25:00I mean, on every panel, the panel between shift and indigo, just wonderful, like I just remember loving this stuff. And I want to give a shout out to the letterer, Lisa Hawkins, because it's perfect. I don't think we appreciate writing the letters, I'm sorry, comment craft. I'm sorry about that. Thank you. We don't appreciate the lettering, the letter is enough because it makes you want to keep going. If the lettering isn't right, you might find yourself like, man, it's taking me a really long time to get through this book, but where everything is place and the font selection, I just, I just think this is a beautiful book. One thing about the art is this was definitely the era of crop tops, crop tops and low rise pants. That is definitely this era. So I'm just talking about the guys.

26:00I'm trusting her little belly window thing, man, she fits right in here because that's this era. So, yeah, 2004, it's the last season of friends. And 2004 is when I think it's like, okay, we've mashed out the 90s and I think we're really trying to define what the arts are going to be like, what are the 2000s? And you can really see it in these ads, but yeah, and I think this book is reflecting that because these are some young 20-somethings in the city and they're in Brooklyn, so it's all that going on. Well, let's get to the huntress. We're how many minutes in. We haven't even really talked about her part in this, but we're in the middle of this argument between Arsenal and Nightwing and she's actually in the room, which I love to say she's like, hey, you know, I am in the room. And of course, this is when she's in the Birds of Pre.

27:04And I just think, I love the interactions here because she's not taking crap. You know, we always talk about that. And it's one of the things that makes her distinctive. Because Nightwing is all, oh, you know, she's reckless, she's prone to excessive force, and her response is, oh, grow up here. It's just like, oh, boy, here we go, you know. And she's arguing, you know, she's not going to want to put team members in danger, you know, like, what do you think? And this is the era where she's in Birds of Pre. So you think he'd, you know, be on page with some of that kind of stuff. So I was sort of taken aback by exactly how grouchy he is. But when we get to the, toward the, one of the things in this scene is you should, she says tonight, when you should own up that you want to do me and it bugs the crap out of you. I was just like, oh, boy, because you know, they worked together in that mini series.

28:08And that is a major player in why Oracle has such a hard time with the huntress over in the Birds of Pre book. So it's really interesting that we're tying it into this too. And it was just like, wow, is this a Judd Winnick? You know, we must bring in sexual tension and do everything, well, no, not necessarily because it's in that other book too. And that's just something that's following her character around. Would you, what do you think about that, this whole scene and how she's taking criticisms and throwing, during hardballs out there, let me say, I got to tell you when I was reading this the first time, because this may be my like eighth time revisiting this, I loved her. Now, things that were going on with like the first time I read this, things that I didn't know about, even with reading issue one, I didn't realize everything that happened with Donna Troy. We talked about that before. Oh, that she died, right? And that's what brought this book about. Yes, I was under the impression that Donna Troy died in the 80s or something.

29:13I think Donna Troy has died more than once. Yeah. So I, who, who is Donna Troy? No, I just, they always love asking that question. But so I didn't, when I, when I first read this, I didn't understand the impact of that. And in issue one, they talk about Arsano how he used to be speedy and all this stuff. And they said he did a stunt with checkmates. Mm-hmm. I was like, okay. That was some crumbs. I didn't pick up the first several times I read this. I was like, hmm, interesting. And then things that were released before this book came out, Huntress being courted to be the queen to be in checkmate and checkmate. So I'm like, oh, so that's why Arsano would have specifically brought her in. Checkmate ties. Wow. You think he still has ties to checkmate? I thought he got out of it a long time ago. Yeah, he got out of it, but just like, hey, I know her work or whatever.

30:17And like, basically, now what I realize, like he's doing some oracle checkmate stuff with the outsiders. I always felt like he's on that super computer. I felt like that he wanted to bring her in because she's a take no nonsense straight forward brute force kind of character, which is what he was doing at the time. That's how I read it and read it. And now I'm adding all this other stuff to it as well. Okay. So this scene, I thought it was great with her. And I want to give my flowers to Nightwing because I remember, especially at this time I just thought Nightwing was so cool, I was reading all that Chuck Dixon stuff. And in this, it's like, okay, he's being a real tool, but we have to give props to the actor playing this. We got to give props to Dick Grayson because he has to be this tool to make the hunter seem really, really cool. And she seems so cool to me like I'm doing a hunter's podcast like she's one of my favorite

31:20characters of all time. So Dick being a dick to her, I'm like, man, okay, I'm annoyed by this, but no, it helps. It helps the hunter's character because now she's making fun of them and all this stuff so it's like, yeah, it's kind of cool. She's getting over on Nightwing, so I want to give my flowers to Nightwing. He's grumpy and stuff because he's still, I think, in the grieving process because he's not wanting to get connections to any of these people. So the fact that he wants to be rude to her sort of fits this book in direction that they have him. And also what's going on is, okay, so Nightwing, during this time, in his own individual book, he's being the favorite family member of Nightwing. He's being the favorite family member of Dick Grayson, you know, he's America's favorite brother, all right? But then when he gets in this team book, they make him Batman.

32:21Same thing that was going on in the Teen Titans book with Tim Drake. They made him very dark, mysterious Batman. Remember he would always leave without telling folks. So that was my introduction to Tim Drake. I thought he was always like that. So when I went back and read like 90 stuff, I was like, oh, okay, he was just specifically written that way in that book. But do you remember that? They made him very Batman-like. I think part of it is because they were both the team leaders of the two teams that came together and they had that death on their hands. And they were almost defeated. I mean, it was bad. So I think that's part of why they wanted to have the fallout hit Nightwing and Robin so bad because they were the team leaders. Yeah. So I was eating it, eating it up like a spoon, like the way that Jeff Johns was riding Tim Drake in that 2003 Teen Titans. I was 11.

33:21I just love the way she sasses him and it's like, you know, you're not mad at me for legitimate reasons. You know, come on. She just doesn't want to take his crap. And she also wants to like, you're always cool guy, you're cool guy. You're so cool guy. So I want to knock you down a peg. Yeah. And she's like, okay, we don't get along, but I can do this. Come on. And what I like is all of this is interrupted because it emergency happens. So they don't really have time to carry out this argument. Yeah. The argument never gets quite finished. And she's sort of on the team by default, you know, that he can no longer give an argument because, you know, they need her to go into the field like right now. That scene though, when she finally gives it up and starts makin' that guy in the head in the prison, tattoo you man or whatever.

34:23And Nightwing is like, oh my god, and all this stuff. And then when he hears the subok and realizes how important this is, all of a sudden he's all over it. And I'm like, yeah, if she wasn't there to take this in hand, you know, you never would have known what was going on and how bad this was going to get. If she had done it sooner, you know, would they have gotten to the ritual sooner, maybe, maybe not. If she wasn't there at all and he had given up, then what? So some good plotting that was happening here. This is issue eight. So issues one through seven. The team was complaining because they're like, hey, you're makin' us take on these small time crooks. When are we gonna do the big stuff? So it seemed like, or you just give, Arsenal, you're just giving this newly formed team training wheels. But then you ended up finding out, no, this is all leading towards a bigger plot. And then boom, it's revealed here. So I think again, good riding, good plotting it out.

35:26And when they, so Nightwing and the Huntress, they go down to the station to interrogate this guy and they're doing good cut back up. And Nightwing is in disguise, which is hilarious. And he's trying to be like, come on, buddy, you know, give me some answers. And when the dude is being rather belligerent, Night, Huntress kicks his teeth in, slams his head to the table. And that's when I fell in love. I fell in love. I fell in love. I fell in love. I fell in love. You know, it goes flying. Oh my god. My teeth are being cracked and flying out. They blur the panel to make it seem like motion is happening. She's like, enough of this, enough. You know, we got more important things to, you know, there is a bus full of people. And I think, you know, that's just, she's not gonna fool around with this. Because I, you know, we don't want more bus fulls of people getting burned up. So let's find out what's going on and find out quickly.

36:28I like where they're saying like, okay, so those wooden statues, what did you do with them? He's like, oh, it's a good poem. You know, they go well with the banister or whatever. And they're like getting really tired of his stuff and that's when Helena just feeds into him. So Helena, she's there as if she's a DA or whatever, and she's in her color scheme even though she's in her civics. I love the purple. I love when they do that. I just like that the way she's in here and is, I think it's a good fit because of the way this team is in sort of a people and in not, they don't have to be the closely knit group at the moment. You know what? Get job with this book. It's a team book and everyone had their parts and bits. And like you were saying, this is all sparse out. The pacing is good. I don't feel like it's a rush job. I don't feel like I could read this going to the mailbox and back.

37:31There's good stuff in here and just the artwork is beautiful. But I love the, the theatrics, Helena had to be making fun of that wing on the car right there. He's in disguise. He got this fake go tea. Just beautiful. Yeah. With the light, the light hair. Oh my gosh. Because he and Batman, they do Sherlock Holmes, I'm a master of disguise stuff. They do that. You're talking about the artwork, the one where Thunder, Grace and Jade burst into the room. I love that. And the motion, the way it feels like they're flying through that door. And Thunder swinging from the top, you know, yeah, really, I love that. Really dynamic. Yeah, I was having so much fun reading this book when this first came out. Another cool thing too when they were in that hospital scene and Nightwing and Hunter

38:31are going back and forth, back and forth. And if you didn't know Helena Bertinelli already, you found out like, wow, she's tough. She's spitfire. She's sassing them off. But then when they see those killings on the monitor, she goes mother of God. So they let you know, hey, she's tough. But that let you know how disturbing this thing must be if it cracked her. So again, good writing, good characterization. Well, in that call back to her Catholic roots, you know, that was a nice tie back because she doesn't have the cross in this. Then the earrings are the huntress looking cross things, not actual. You know, her symbol that she has like on her bike and her motorcycle and stuff. So she doesn't have the pendant cross in this outfit. Just the white, the way the white pattern is on the shirt. What are your thoughts of Tom Rainey's pencils in this?

39:32I find it a mixed bag. Honestly, there's pages like I was mentioning where it's just wonderful. We're getting streaks to the air, the lady at the beginning that we were following. I think does a great job on that. Although I, you know, looking at it now, when I saw at the bottom of the first page, and I'm thinking myself, is that Damien Wayne with like a lot of piercings or something? I like Damien Wayne to me. But in a rate, so there's moments where I'm like, oh, that's really great. The moment when huntress is introduced, you know, and she's just leaning back into the wall. Looks great. It looks over your shoulder, whatever. But there's moments where I think that the figures are a little distorted. The faces, especially like the bad guy group of people there that just, I don't know. They just look a little distorted to me. And so sometimes the characters don't look just right to me. Understood.

40:33Like I said, mixed bag. Some of it is like, yeah, this is really, really cool. And other times I'm like, man, this could be. The final splash page is good. Where they do the introduce of Gregor as the Damien as Savak. That is a great splash page, I have to say. And the black background, you know, with the stuff going around him, I like that one. I thought that was a good intimidation page. But, you know, it's hard because I'm mixing comic book art with graphic content. And that's kind of hard, because we're going from some very adult moments. And it's cartoony in other places. So it's a little bit jarring. Yeah, you are right about that. It's cartoony with wild things happening, yeah. Yeah, moments where it's like, whoa, you know, all of a sudden this is something really crazy in your face. I just, I really love the clarity.

41:33I think that's something else I really dig about this book, like the clarity of it. And like, I can distinctively see these faces and facial expressions. I, yeah, the folds of people's fabric, I love it. Well, it was effective because I'm interested. I want to know what's going to happen next, you know, now what do we do? We've got the demon that Nightwing was terrified of the sky. And was upset enough to, like, immediately swing into action. So how's this going to go? You know, I think that was a good cliffhanger ending. And we want to mention also that, if you haven't read this one yet, that Arsenal Roy, he's in the hospital because in a previous adventure, he was shot close range. Yeah, it was on the chest. Yep, but he's on the road to recovery. I remember reading that for the first time. And even reading this again prepared for this podcast is still like, oh, yeah, I forgot.

42:33This is coming. It's still shocking. Yeah, yeah, he's lived through a lot of stuff. Yeah, I mean, he was on the smack. We got his throat slit in the green arrow, but I don't know if that's happened yet or not. And he lost his daughter, right? That didn't happen yet. Okay, but man, yeah, they just be giving it to this guy. So maybe that's why I just remember when he was a new 52 time and it was red hood and the outlaws. He was one of the outlaws and it was Jason Todd. I love it. I was having a lot of fun. Well, guys, let us know what you thought about this one. Go back and try to find this if you can pull this up on some digital platform or if you have this book, outsiders number eight. And I think even at this time, when I read this for the first time, I didn't realize that there was another team called outsiders so that this was like a callback.

43:36Like this was outsiders next generation. I didn't get all that. So now reading this with all this context is just really fine. Write to us at feathers and foes at gmail.com and the show notes, I'll put some other links of where you can reach us and find this episode and previous episodes of the Hunters podcast and let us know your thoughts as far as where you read in the book and where you reading these characters in any other books where you read the Nightwing at the time are birds afraid. And this is a 2004 release. Write to us and tell us, what were you reading in 2004 if you remember if you can call that back up. And that's it for today's episode of the Hunters and Foes at gmail.com. So until next time, I'm AJ. I'm Laurel. Helena Bertinelli forever.