14099 Steve Harper Interviews Marilyn Horowitz Writing Coach/ Author /New York University Professor, Emerita

0:00Broadcasting from the business capital of the world, this is the podcast business news network. I'm welcome back everybody. Always love getting together with her because she's very transparent about everything and part of that is helping people move their lives forward, find transformation, find happiness if you will. And part of that is she works with people who are creative writers and such. She is one herself having written some really amazing award-winning books and she is back with us. Lots to talk about today. I'm feeling Maryland Horror Whits on the program. How are you doing today? I am doing great. It's always such a pleasure to come and talk to you so much going on with you. I think you got more going on with you because the seconds before we went on here today, you said you had a breakthrough and I don't even know what it is, but I'm excited.

1:03It doesn't matter what it is, it's still exciting. What's going on? Well, let me give you context. The context is that my author, where we mentioned once about the bedmaking, used to send me to Maryland, what does it think you do? And he wrote a famous book called Locacy, where if anybody is interested, it was eight million people use this technique. It's a body or a technique where you use your body to help you find out what you're feeling. And I work for it closely. We ended our therapy when I realized that he and I were taking equal amounts of notes at our set. And I guess that we go Dutch, which didn't sit too well with him. Yeah, let's split it. Anyway, he was remarkable. So my interest is consciousness. And what that means is, what is actually going on, it's philosophical, perhaps, but it's

2:08really about the ideas, what are we experiencing in other words, are we here, are we there, which self is clear, all these questions, but the reason for it is different than other people. The reason for it is because I believe that the goal of being alive itself actually lies. I believe that we come out into this world and we pay a tremendous price for staying alive in terms of our loss of personality and personal truth in order to survive as part of it, whatever the wrote the program wrote it in. Well, let's talk about that for a minute. So are you referring to how to stay alive that we need to conform, potentially not really be ourselves, not truly be authentic? And when you're not authentic, you're doing yourself an injustice. It doesn't feel comfortable. Sometimes, most times, you don't even know you're doing it, but you're doing it to survive. Is that what we're referring to? Yeah, that's one of the reasons that my way of thinking is very different than other

3:11people's. And the reason I've been so successful, helping people is right, because I understand that what we're up against is our own biology. And it's a survival biology. And my completely lack of a respect these days for things like therapy is based on the idea that therapy just doesn't go deep enough. I mean, it's fine. The real issue is these decisions were all made on some level that had to do with the belief that if we did not behave in certain ways, we would not have physically survived. And it's no amount of talk therapy is to fix that. You have to go another way, which is part of what a lot of my methods are about. So that being said, I'm an existentialist, so I don't necessarily believe that anything is a real meaning. But to me, that's a clean statement, because it means that I'm allowed to describe whatever meaning I want. Right? So I believe that life shouldn't have meanings. It's my personal belief that I believe based on all my studies and human nature that we need to have a purpose. We need to feel that life has meaning. All right. Go study Maslow. You will see that once we're safe and low, then we're not going to freeze to death.

4:14Next thing that we need is some sense of purpose or understanding. So that being said, when I come from my grandparents wrote a book on comparative religions that was used widely, reconciling Judaism and Christianity, I'm whether it was a philosophy professor, a gentleman is another, I come from this lineage, I come from that lineage, I'm the one girl at city in the school studying in Talmud, you know, I come from that. And so what I basically, so when Jean used to ask me, would you do my own, I used to say, I'm a thanksster, say what? And I say, yeah, I basically think that's what I do, you know, I make tools and I think about things. That's those are the two things I do. So I want to achieve a goal of understanding time and how time works and how it tortures us and how we, you know, one of my sayings is the two themes of life are the past and the future. Right. You're a deep thinker. We just need to put that in there. Yes. This one, you could be thinking you're a deep thinker in a beautiful way, but that's part

5:15of it. Well, it's, it's my interest, it's my interest. So, so thank you for that. But anyway, the point of what I'm saying is, though, if that's the input, right, then nothing, nothing is going to be good enough for me. In other words, I have read everything, I have tried everything, I have done everything, I've worked on thousands of stories. And when I began to understand the story and experience, don't awkward on a living level. Why does this matter? Because I have grown tired of possibly feeling mine in some kind of hamster wheel. And I am in some kind of affirmative arena. You know, I told you, I think I did a good start once, so I launched on a podcast with the woman who gave her past life impressions, and you know, she's various, which goes, and you know, she, she used to think that she said, so how many times have we almost had near death experiences? Like it's a competition. You know, like I've had many of you have, I'm just like, you know, kill me.

6:16And that was a big moment for me, because I had a good laugh, and I thought, I'm not doing this. So I thought, okay, well, you know, I've got, I've got a very fortunate, I really got what I wanted. I really don't have to do anything with that. I have it. That is to arrange my life. Time for wood. Thank you to the creator that I really can get up and do whatever I want all day long, which was a big goal. And I thought, well, I'm still not happy. Hey, has anybody, I don't know, I wonder. I'm still miserable. I'm still driving myself. And I'm at the beach. It's beautiful. You know, you know, I haven't really, I was sick. But my, you know, poor me. I had to crawl out into my balcony that overlooks the ocean, you know what I mean? And then for the right, I had to crawl 20 feet to the elevator so I could sit by the pool. I had a lot of trouble finding sympathy for myself. But I was still miserable. And then I had this thing said, I said, oh, I said, I got it, I got it. This is the whole game. I am in a belief system that I am trying to achieve a goal.

7:24Trying to achieve a goal? Yeah. That no matter how far this goes, I am on this hamster where I'm in a performance situation. Do you know what the goal is? 500%. OK. OK. And the point is there is no goal. You know, it's like the thing in the matrix, there is no point. The point is the construction of the goal is a survival technique because our biological imperative needs time to make sure that we run from the bear before it catches us. So were you saying that you created this goal? I did. Go ahead. I did. It is created as part of the fabric of our reality that we work, that we live in a cause and effect society because the original plan is survival. And survival has something happens where the bear is safe for you folks. So again, I don't know how to explain how deep you can go underneath structure, but

8:25there is a way to actually be present and experience where you don't need the narrative. You know, that you can, you can, you know, you can, you know, you can, you can actually, it's like, you know, it's like the matrix, you can just, you can read the source code. You don't need the, you don't need the thing. And so I just realized that, that I have been telling myself this story, which is that, you know, I'm trying to do things. I'm improving. I help people. I have all of these stories about myself and this was the answer. I realized, no, I have actually achieved my goal. I have actually perfectly content because I have what, what more could you want? I have my health. I'm good looking. I have most important of everything. I have really wonderful friends, you know, and I have people like you who are not necessarily friends, but I wish you were, you know, I like that. I like that much is what I mean to say. I just need you to text me the address in Florida. And we're not. I don't do that. But let me just finish this. Sure.

9:26So that, that the only problem that I was having was that I was not taking a position and I'm just my goal. That's the stuff. The problem was how I do my goal, not that I had not achieved it. It's a big idea. Do you feel that you maybe subconsciously didn't realize that you achieved the goal because of the thing that we all have in us. I'm not good enough. I got to do better. I got to do better. So you're like, all right. Well, I got you. I'm not there. I don't feel fulfilled more and more and more. But wait a minute. Take a look. Just take a take inventory and realize a crap. I hurt. I did do it. After all. That was my words. So there I am sitting on my balcony coughing my braids out. And you know, and I'm sitting there and all my dear friends and I are texting about all the fun things that are coming up and I'm working on my new book and the sun is shining.

10:26You know. And I just. Okay. I'm done. I'm going to now figure out how to share this insight, which is following general. Okay. I was going after the wrong goal. I wasn't trying to solve the right or the wrong problem. That was that with that's maybe stuff compared to what this is here. I have been convinced or to feed myself that that I was that I was the goal that I wanted to kind of achieve. And the fact was I had already achieved it. Why do you feel that you didn't see it? Because I wasn't I wasn't prepared to win on some very deep level. I never thought I was enough. It's actually what you nailed it on the first try. I didn't feel if I was not enough and I didn't think it was possible. So I didn't see really that simple. Something changed in my being as about, you know, finding the tools that you really want to be and walking in there and going, you know, you know, I don't know what your

11:26goal is or was. But I look at you as somebody who runs deep, very insightful, wants to help people, has with things that you've done, everything you've done has been that, taking what you've learned, experienced and using that to help others. And in the personal side of things, I don't know, you know, we don't talk deep like that, but I see you as somebody who you're content, maybe not 100% with that, but you got things around you that are wonderful, but maybe you don't, you didn't see them for what they are and also add them to your success pot, if you will. Okay. What it was, it was understanding that I did not have you use the word earlier, if I needed to, if I've been doing it and it's interesting, I've been rebuilding the framework of my understanding of myself. In other words, it's like I've been filling in the wrong puzzle. Believe me, Marilyn, I got you on that.

12:28I totally understand what you're saying, doing the same exact thing. And even in the last number of months, I've had a pithnese, I've had realizations, better understanding, like just things that just like hit me over the head, like the proverbial frying pan, like, oh, oh, okay, look at that. I didn't see that, like, example, I wasn't super close to my dad, my parents got the divorce when I was kids, like barely even born and it seemed occasionally whatever, always wanted to be on the radio, always wanted to do it, nine years old, always wanted to. He worked in an electrical plant, so I found plants in a magazine to build transmitter. So I sent them the plants, I was like, can you just build this for me? I just want to be on like the air, didn't do it, didn't really even respond. And I'm thinking, I'm thinking, well, if you can't do it, you around all these engineers and stuff, thinking I'll whip this up, I'm a kid, that's all I want. I don't want the bike.

13:29I don't want the red rider BB gun, just give me a freaking transmitter. Well wait a minute. Here was the thing. I thank him for not doing it. And I did a few months ago, thank you, thank you dad, appreciate it. Why? Why? Because I taught myself electronics, I taught myself how to make PC boards and I built it myself, then I built a bigger one, then I built another one, then I built a mixed mixer and all of that stuff that I taught myself, I took cassette tape and I got my first job at barely 17. And if he didn't, if he built that, I probably wouldn't have been pushed to do it. So I thank him. I thank him. But I never saw it. I didn't have that, you know, break through if you will until a couple of months ago. That's the best thing. I mean, that's what I mean, but it's like, it's like you're, you know, my idea that I was building a jigsaw puzzle, because you know, I come from this very fancy family and blah, blah, blah, blah. That, you know, it was like a big dollar sign with, you know, five or six million dollars

14:29next to it. You know, whatever, whatever that even was, and that, and that, and that, and that the, and so I was trying to fill that puzzle, you know what I mean? And then I was, I was, so I would accomplish something and I would take that piece and I would equate it in terms of the outer shape of that puzzle, because now you do a puzzle, right? You open the puzzle and you have to get the outer piece, right? But I just never really learned how to do that properly, so I was always going out. And then I suddenly realized this, and I said, you know, that the puzzle and the shape of this puzzle, you know, is, is, is my shape. You know, I'm not, I'm not building out into a tower or a dollar sign. I'm a puzzle, you know, it's a flip that I thought, well, if I'm the puzzle, then the shape of me works out pretty well because of all the things that I wanted. I have. I mean, I can always have more of them. You know, you always have more of whatever you have, but the idea that what I wanted, I wanted freedom. I wanted complete freedom.

15:30I wanted to not have to have social obligations to things like children. I did not want to have, you know, I, like, you know, I, what I mean, I don't have a boyfriend right now is because anybody in my age, I'm going to compare them. I'm not doing it. You know, it's just like, sorry. And I'm in the same boat. Different reason though. I don't, I haven't found something that runs, you know, deeper, you know, whatever. Do you feel that you had expectations or you felt that others family had expectations of you and you needed to meet that? Well, that goes without saying, but what is it? What's more interesting is to substrate like your dad not helping you with electronics. Was it I accepted judgments? You say that again, you accepted what? I accepted the judgment that I was in there enough. And I never saw that that was a survival technique to make sure that I was kept, you know,

16:31that they didn't throw me out of the tribe, right? I didn't, I didn't realize how, how far down that went, how that went. And then, you know, in a certain point, it occurred to me that that I didn't like the way my mind worked. I've done this. I've rebuilt my mind periodically over 10 or 12 times over the last 20 years. I decided that I could read properly. I taught myself how to read stuff like that, you know, overcome various learning disabilities. And so, so this was one I thought I went, okay, it's the problem. If you change the frame, here's the use for this conversation. If I am now coming to the plate that I have achieved my goal and that I can actually read with myself, I don't have to think about it on psychological terms. I can say, well, I've got this much money and I've got these many books and I'm doing this and so on and so forth. And that is the state of my heart. Then what happens? I don't have an answer. That's what I'm excited about. In other words, I don't, it's not like I don't, I'm not me. I'm like you, I'm a Jew, I'm a Sidious.

17:32I'm, you know, I'm always, you know, I'm always, I'm always, I'm always curious, but I don't, I don't have that underlying thing where there's some various, you know, goal or God or something, I have to miss it too. It's the answer. So you're, you, you come to the moment where you're done chasing. That's what it sounds like. You've done, you've done chasing whatever it is and it's perfectly okay to not know what you're chasing. You're just done chasing it and now you're, so here, here's my question. Do you have peace? Do I have peace, peace? Yes, yes, I do, but I'm so angry. God, I'm really pissed off. I think this is a really stupid setup. You read my most current first thing my heroine says, who came up with a stupid idea of getting bored? I can't wait to just pop out at 18 with a job. And, and from zero to 18, not have to internalize all this crap that we do, that sets us up for,

18:33I'm going to say the word failure later or challenge you later in life as adults. Yeah, so, so you know, so the answer is, am I peaceful? I'm not a peaceful person. It doesn't interest me. Okay, what's the, you said freedom? The answer is freedom. What's the difference between freedom and peace? Okay, so, so freedom is, I can feel peaceful if I want to. I could not feel peaceful, and I have, I have no obligation at all to any of these decided, or you know what I mean? I don't, I don't, I don't get, I don't get an A if I'm feeling peaceful. I get, I get an A because I'm consulting with myself about what I would like to be doing in this moment. That's where I get my, my, my good grades. Hmm. I really appreciate your transparency, you know, especially on the peace thing. And I, I, you got me thinking, I got a little bit deeper in my mind about that. Well, you and I are just going to have a talk show these days because I would like to find out more about you

19:35because I know you're a very deep person also, but I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to reveal something right now, not about that, but I had trouble sleeping last night. Mhm. I thought of you and I gave myself a hug. Yes. I'm not even kidding. Uh, uh, I, I'm, I, I, I, I, I, I, you have made my day, my week, Marilyn, I'm not, I'm not making it up. I do not lie. I'm transparent. I did. And I was like, what, what do I need right now? You need a hug and what you taught about giving yourself a hug, the inner child, if you will. Yeah, but you will always be together or always be safe. We are not. I don't even know how long it took, but it was had to be a very short period of time. I was out like a like on all right, and then I sub gray last night. I just woke up, but I'm like, you know, had a couple of things and, you know, whatever. And I, I've been hearing a song over and over again, and it resonates even in this conversation.

20:40And maybe mention it before, but now I've dissected the lyrics even more. This Marching Dave Matthews band came out in 1994. It's essentially about and it's Marching black and red antennas moving the same. They're just they do it the same every day, every day. But if you look at that song and the lyrics, check it out, what's what's being revealed in and Marching aside from the we do it the same way every day is the, the main chorus take these chances, place them in a box for a quieter time, IE, take some chances in your life as opposed to, well, one things are better. I'll take care of it. I'm going to put it in a box and when I'm ready, I'm going to take, take them now lights down. We all up and die. That's the next lyric. But here's the part that hit me after hearing this song a thousand times. He goes to visit his mommy. He feeds him well, has concerns.

21:40He forgets them. He remembers sitting under the table and dreaming. There's the shadow. There's the inner child in us. And I never even picked up on that until racing like, oh, well, okay, and it keeps playing over and over again, but it's like a message. It's like take chances. Take chances. Have you taken chances? I am. I am a living chance. That's, I'm all about that. I need to take more. I think maybe that's why that song is resonating at the moment. Well, but I'm going to say something that you might not like, people like me can't help it. I don't really, I shouldn't really get more of a pad. It's my nature. I was, I can't settle. It was, I, I, for better or for worse, it's not like, oh, I didn't decide to, I've been married three times. It was, it wasn't a trip like, it was like, it was like me or it.

22:40And I'm just, you know, I'm tough. I am tough in that way. I'm just like, no, I'd rather die than settle, but it's not like I could say, well, damn, then settle. I'm just not built that way. So I have an itch. And you may have that also. What happens when you're like that is that people either really like you, like you, you really like me because I really am like I am and I like you for the same reason. But people, there are people who do not like me because I'm a potent person and I'm going to out you and you can't look at me and look at yourself and not see what you're not doing. Nothing wrong with that. Well, my tag when you're younger. That's a different thing. Right. So, so, so, so what would be taking a chance for you? So I just say we should have a cocktail. That's a big chance. That's me taking a chance on my side, right? Okay. I don't even, I don't even think about these things, but if you, if you go over from from the Steve you, that might be a very big deal. You see what I'm trying to say you, what is a chance for you? What would be taking a chance?

23:41At this moment, I'd have to think deeper about it. I, I'm not an overthinker, but like, for example, planning to go away in like a month and a half back to my, my island, my little retreat, whatever flights are a little more expensive now is what it is, but I haven't booked the flight yet. I already have the Airbnb. That was locked down months ago and like, what, what am I waiting for? And I'm trying to process like, what are you waiting for? What, what, what, what price isn't going to change? Ten bucks up down, whatever. Who cares? All right. You can get stranded. You know, you, I'm going to interrupt you and say, no, you, you have to change this right away. No, you are being smart. Okay. You don't know. Yes, say that it might not be working. Okay. We, if we continue to have these kind of delays, it is going to be, it will be, you know, I was going to go to the floor. I have to fly out to Florida for meeting. Luckily, I was sick, so I had a good excuse to cancel. But otherwise, I would be, you know, I would have had to leave at like three o'clock in the morning last night.

24:42Funny you should say that because I just got a text from her friends. I was in, I told you in Lauderdale, um, the end of January, they just texted me something and they saw on social that somebody put a video up at Lauderdale at three thirty in the morning. And there was a line of like 300 people and issue TSA just what you said, and it's pitch black and everybody's waiting like, what is going on here? And that's for Lauderdale, not, you know, fly to another country. So so maybe, I mean, again, this is where you, this is what I mean, Steve, you know, if you have to, you have to be kinder to yourself. You do, I'm going to tell you that directly. You're still at a rate in a sense that you think you should do something at, but then, which is great. I mean, you're, you know, you're a fantastic person. But then take the extra step, which is part of what the hug is about. The hug is like, well, you know, the world doesn't make any sense. Why should I listen to it? But I make, so let me go see what I think about this. You know, so you're in a hug and you go, okay, is there any danger of me getting stranded

25:44in their part? The answer is, yeah, about an 80% chance. So you'd be an idiot to book your flight. And you know what? The stay is flexible. It's not like, gotta be there on the 31st, and we two days ago, you know what I'm saying, where it's not like I'm locked into anything. It's, it's fluid. So you have resources, so a couple hundred dollars is not going to flatten you one way or the other. No, no, it's, um, the rest of it's cheap, and that that, you know, gotta be, but that's what makes it fun, but it's still, you don't have to worry about that. Price-wise, um, I'm saying, but that's my point, in other words, all of these concerns, you know, if I don't book now, it's going to be more expensive. Well, it's not going to be, it's going to be really expensive if you have to sit in some airport for three days. Well, and that just did, like I, it's not going to fluctuate that much. It's, it's more of, you know, it was fun saying, well, it was only three hundred bucks, now it's four hundred. Because it, you know, we're in a different time now in terms of fuel, but, um,

26:47FYI, Delta is much better than American, okay? I had to, I had to do something with American where I had to move flight because of the snowstorm. They were, they were absolutely horrible about it. Delta's like, no problem. You know, we can't give you your money back, but here's your credit. Use it for a year. No, when I was in Lauderdale, like I canceled a lot of issues, spirit, never again. Don't ever do it. Never in out of business. Chapter 11, stay away. And I never say things like that, but that's not, that's not worth it. But I'm saying in terms of a reframe. So one of the reasons that this was a great insight for me about understanding I had already succeeded was because, because I, I, my, my, my level of success is a very high level of success. How many people do you know who can say genuinely? I don't have to do anything. I don't want to do except that I will die at some point, or I'm even pretty good with taxes. Not many. Okay. So, so what I'm saying is I didn't, I didn't get there from, for I got away from a long chain

27:52of the conversation you and I just had the airlines of just refusing to take anybody else's judgment. And just thinking it through in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, inée. I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm either gonna be elected for the board of directors of this, you know, $100 million condo or not. It's a big deal. Okay, however, zoom exists, you know, and I just kind of went, so if I go back, I will definitely get sicker because everybody is building sick. My chances of getting delayed are about 100% even if it's an hour or whatever, right? The wear and tear of having to get somewhere so early in the morning and all the stress of that, right? The possibility of some kind of terrorist incident, which I think is where up for, I think where we're due for something horrible. And I just get in a state of hummus, which is really what it is, I made a decision to

28:55just do what my therapist recommends in these situations in cancel. So I recommend that you don't book a flight. And I'm just going to say something here and you might think it's a little woo, but we're in terms of astrology, we're in a mercury retrograde, which communication, transportation gets wonky. Go, go, go. You know, I don't know. The work of a retrograde to me is like the weather. I get you. I understand that. But I like to watch things and just like, yeah, that's interesting. I don't live my life by it. But it's like, all right. Well, you know, if I can wait, that's over in like seven days, all not. Like the same thing, during a mercury retrograde, don't think I'm crazy. Elective surgery. If I didn't need to have it and I would just like, well, I'd wait, what's another couple of weeks? Why not? Why not? I've seen things go wonky in terms of, you know, during that period. Do I fully believe it? Am I, you know, astrological freak and all that? No. But it's like, if I can wait, I can wait.

29:57But we have rolls of thumb. You know, I mean, to me, mercury retrograde is just like a rule of thumb. You know, it's like, you know, it's, it's like a homily, you know, like, like, like, if you, you know, if you take an umbrella, it's less likely to rain. You know, these, these kind of things that make no sense, but they're very useful. They're useful. They're hacks. If you want to call them something. You know, it's, it's one little thing you put on your radar, a little blip, but it's not like this big target, like, oh, my God, my, my life is ruined because of mercury. No. It's just interesting. Yeah, but here's the charge I'm going to give you. Well, this, this is blowing my mind. So there are very few things that I find surprising, more particularly interesting. This has happened to be one of them. So I've been waking up in the morning going, okay, Marilyn, you have achieved your goal in life. Your main definition, which for me is freedom, right? I don't have time to find it. And then I need to leave you know, I always do the hug and the word of the day that I have a conversation myself. I say, Marilyn, prove it. Prove it. And also, well, yesterday this happened and the other day this happened.

30:59And then actually this happened and yeah, you know, yeah, it seems to be that you are continuously adding, you know, like if you have a big, you know, if it's, if it's, you know, if you like to collect it, like a little piggy bank, it's like every day you're putting in pennies, not that they make them anymore, but, you know, and so in the morning, I get up and I say, okay, so how did I do the childcare of adding pennies, you know? I'm finding that that is something I'm writing, but it is so powerful to have a real conversation with yourself like that. I agree. And thank you for the reminder about the word of the day. I forgot about that. They're calling us. We're out of time. How do we find you? Your website. So we learn about your books and your initiatives and all that. Marilyninissitib.com. We go to MarilynHarrowicz.com. And I have a biweekly webinar and right now they're about how to use your writing time better. We go to about 16 people who were just in heaven. So if it's subject interest you, please come join us for the next one.

32:02They're free. They're an hour. They're blessed. Love it. You are too. Thank you for today. Thank you for sharing your breakthrough. I already knew that you arrived in terms of success. I'm glad you realized it. And thank you for today. And I'm not even kidding. When I tell you, you know, this morning at like 422, I did hug myself and thought of you. But that's my thing. That means that all of us, you know, they say in Jewish, right, if you save the one you save the many. So if I help you, then I've done my job for the whole thing. Well, I'm one of many. But thank you. All right. We'll talk soon. OK. Broadcasting from the business capital of the world, this is the podcast business news network. Hey, what's up, everybody? I'm Jason DeRulo. I love that music connects to people all over the country. But unfortunately, so does something else. Childhood hunger. 15 million kids struggle with hunger right here in America.

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