1407: Lead People, Manage Resources: The Simple Rule That Changes Everything w/ Abrahm DiMarco

0:00Hey, what is up? Welcome to this episode of the Entrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast. As always, I'm your host, Brian Loframento, and I hope that you are ready for today's episode, not just to get you excited about your business, but I would say that today's episode is going to move you and inspire you to take more action in life because we have got an incredible guest speaker and fellow entrepreneur who I know that you're going to love his energy, his insights, his background. Gosh, he loads all of this up into a real love for humans and all of our potential. So let me introduce you to him. His name is Abram DeMarco. Abram has honed his leadership skills and helped others to grow as leaders for over 30 years. As a graduate of the United States Military Academy at West Point, an officer in the US Army for over 20 years, and as a consultant, he has led, been led by others, and developed leaders in a wide variety of situations and conditions. Now, as the owner of DeMarco Consulting Group, Abram works with businesses, athletic teams, schools, colleges, student groups, fire departments, governmental agencies. Heck,

1:05you could pretty much name it. If it's somebody that wants to improve their leadership capacity, then Abram not only works at them, but he moves them. Some of the topics that he discusses are leadership development, leader assessment, resiliency, goal setting, communication, values, and followership, all things that we need not just in the business world, but obviously these translate into the broader scope of life. He combines small group discussions, videos and hands-on exercises into a dynamic, interactive learning environment that brings the challenges of leadership to life. I am so excited because he's going to do all of that even in a short time here today, so I'm not going to say anything else. Let's dive straight into my interview with Abram DeMarco. All right, Abram, I am so very excited that you're here with us today. First things, first welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Abram, we are so grateful that you took us up on the invitation, and before we dive, straight into all things leadership, although it's hard to say before, so I'm sure you'll take us

2:08there even in overview. Take us beyond the bio. Let's start with you. Who's Abram? How did you start doing all these cool things? I was born and raised on a farm in Central PA. I went to West Point, like you said, graduated from there. I spent the next 21 years in aviation. I spent, well, spent about 14 or 15 years in aviation. I got to play with helicopters that taxpayers expense, and then I became a strategic planner for a couple of years, and then I spent the last four years of my life as an Intragement ROTC program. And ROTC, a ROTC, is a leadership program. While you go through college, you go through the ROTC program, and then when you graduate, we turn you loose on the army as young officers. That's where I'm currently, is way upstate New York and post-M New York. And while I was doing the ROTC job, I met a bunch of coaches, the NCAA coaches that worked on the different campuses, and realized there's a lot of overlap between what

3:08they were trying to do with their teams and their players, and what we were doing with ROTC cadets. And so we started working with our teams on these leadership goal-setting team-building communication type of topics on a regular basis, and it was a great partnership. Then my time of the army was up. I retired from the army, and the question is what to do next. And so my plan was to go get a job in corporate America someplace, start climbing the corporate ladder. All of the jobs I was trying, I was really interested in thought it'd be a lot of fun, or just I couldn't get any traction on them, and the jobs that I was getting traction on sounded terrible, I had no interest in doing those. While I was going on this leadership training thing, I started kind of doing it on the side, kind of with the idea that maybe it'd be a side hustle someday. As I got more and more frustrated with the job search, the side hustle would keep growing bigger and bigger, and eventually

4:09I said, well, I guess we're going to do this for our living now. And so over the past, it's been nine and a half years now, it's continued to grow. And like you said, we work with a wide variety of clients, because the great thing about it, leadership is it's about people, right? And everybody has people. And so if you have people, then you have leadership, or you need leadership, hopefully you have it, but you certainly need it. And so our service is applied, like I said, a wide range of clients. Yeah, I really appreciate that overview, Abraham, especially because this is important work that we're talking about today. We're definitely going to go deep into your mind about leadership. And then I do want to talk about your entrepreneurial journey, because I love that you've wove a bit of that backstory into that overview. But really where I want to start today is having consumed as much as your content leading up to our conversation today. I love not only the stuff that you put out there and how you move people to action, but Abraham, I will tell you from the outside looking in that it really stands out to me how much the people that you serve love this

5:14stuff. Clearly they step into it. And that's why I've always loved that quote of when the student is ready, the teacher appears when we talk about leadership. I wonder how much of it is about the other side of the table being ready to step into that leadership because you do such an incredible job of inviting people to see that possibility. Where is there a spark? Is there something that is that moment that makes people say, no, I'm ready. I'm going to step into this work or is this something that at any given time we as leaders can invite others to step into. I think what tends to happen in the real world is the opposite. We tend to put people in leadership roles that they're not really ready for. We spend a lot of time training people into technical skills and then when we need a leader, a supervisor or a former manager, whatever we're going to call that role, when we need that person, we grab the first person we see we throw them in that role and they suddenly decide that, well, maybe they're not ready for this. And that's kind of where we step in. Many times you know, they have great technical skills. They're great salesman

6:21and now we want them to be the sales manager. Well, that's the difference out of skills or or they're a great nurse and they can give shots and start IVs, but now we want them to be the shift supervisor. It's a different set of skills. And so I think many times what happens is people with great technical skills get put in these leadership roles and we haven't done anything to prepare for those roles and now all of a sudden they struggle. And so many times what happens is we know most of my clients are businesses that have a group of frontline supervisors that they need help and they bring us in to help help these folks develop those skills. They're really good technically and then we've moved them into a role that we haven't really prepared them for. I love the way you answered that because it almost makes me feel and this is a double-sided coin. I'm totally going to pick on your background here because I feel like you have such an interesting vantage point is that readiness is a bit of an illusion when it comes to stepping into those leadership roles. Abraham, we talk about this very frequently on the show about

7:23there's no way to be ready to be an entrepreneur or a business owner. The only way to do that is to actually do it. It's just like learning how to ride a bike. You and I could read all the world's greatest theory about bike riding but until our butt is in the seat and until we fall over and until we start to feel what balance feels like. There's no sort of preparation but Abraham, I'm going to contrast that with your background in the military especially. Sorry, I'm going to kick her right back to you is that that is a world where readiness is of utmost importance. So, Abraham, how do you balance all this stuff when we're talking about readiness? Well, most of you don't think about this. From the Army point of view, you spend most of your time getting ready to do something you never hope happens. Being ready and getting prepared for things is kind of what you do most of the time. Very rarely you actually call it on to go do the things that you've been training to do and that's a good thing. That's the way you want it to be.

8:24As strange as that sounds. The other thing is the Army and the military in general, my grant background is Army, when you get promoted you go to school but we can do that because of the scale and the size of the military and the fact that we spend a lot of time getting ready to do things. If you're a medium-sized company with three, four or five hundred people, you don't have the resources to do that. You don't have the resources to build something in-house that can help these people build those skills. If you're a four to five hundred company, yes, you can do that. But if you're a medium-sized business, how do you prepare people? How do you get people ready to take that step into leadership? It's really hard. You probably as yourself don't have that background in training. You haven't really thought about it that much and now you need these folks and that's where I think folks like us can really help. We can come in and get people either ready to take that step or help them because they've already taken

9:28the step. You need them now. You promote them now and we can help them develop the skills that they need to succeed at the next level. I really appreciate how you call out the different scale and different resources that are available at different sizes of scales. Hey, Roman, someone, you and I both talk to people for a living. I feel like we pick up vantage points from so many other people as well. Something that I hear business owners talk about is I'll use a military term is how frequently in business we may need some soldiers. You do need those practitioners because us business owners, we very quickly realize that if you're really great at marketing and you start a marketing agency, you're no longer a marketer. You don't get to just be a practitioner. You've got to be a manager of people and that includes your team, that includes your clients, that includes yourself when you're self-employed. There's so many ingredients to that. Abraham, I feel like it's a weird attitude that I hear sometimes about having those soldiers on our teams whereas to me on my team, gosh, I can't have a soldier because I don't have time to manage a soldier. I need all these entrepreneurial or intra-pronereal leaders across all of our businesses and functions.

10:33What's your take on that? I'm sure there's a lot of organizations that you walk into. You work with sports teams, for example, where people might think, oh, we have a head coach, we have a captain. Those are the leaders. Talk to us about the breadth of leaders appearing in all the places. I talk all the time. You want leaders at all levels and leadership doesn't require you to have a title. Just because you're not the team captain, doesn't mean you can't be a leader. Just because you're a line worker, you're the worker, be your soldier, like you said, you can still be a leader. Leaders are all about influencing people and you can influence people regardless of what you're title is. If you walk into any organization and you've got five or six people out there, all have the same title and have the same job title. There's always one that everybody looks up to. There's always that one person there because if you have a question, this is who you talk to or if something happens, we all look to that same person to see how they react so we know how we should react. Even though they don't have that title, they're absolutely a leader. They're

11:37absolutely influencing the people around them. That's what leadership is. Being able to influence people to get the job done. Just because they don't have a title doesn't mean they can't be a leader. We want great leaders at all levels of the organization. There's a lot of folks that really focus on the C suite, the executive coaching type of stuff, the CEO, the CFO, the CEO, nothing wrong with that. That's great. Those folks are wonderful. If your CEO can walk on water and everybody between them and the line workers are absolute idiots or they can't lead at all, well then all that greatness at the top gets lost. It gets lost in translation. You have to have those leadership capabilities and those people that can influence and lead a group of folks all the way from the very top, all the way to the bottom. It has nothing at all to do with the title that you have. We've all seen lots of people that have a title that know a VP or a director or whatever that we wouldn't follow if we had to. We've all seen lots of people that have no

12:40title. If you want something done, that's the person that's going to get it done for you. It's really interesting. It's part philosophical question as well and I think that the workplace has changed over the past few decades of this massively hierarchical structure too. At least flatter structures these days, but Abram colloquially and societally, we've all heard, oh, you don't want too many chefs in the kitchen and things like that. What's your response to that? Maybe some executives who do worry, maybe some leaders who worry, well, what's my function going to be? I guess this is part of an identity question, Abram, of what's my role when we've got leaders everywhere? One of the questions I often ask, right, especially when we're working with middle managers. Are you guys leaders? Are you followers? The answer is both. We all have a boss and if you're in any kind of relationship, people that work for you. You have to know when to do one and when to do the other. It's not an either or it's an end. We have to be able to do both.

13:42There's times where we have to understand what our boss wants from us, understand what their intent is and understand that our job is to amplify that message. It's our job to make sure that their vision happens and then we have to be able to take all that and turn around and influence the people that work for us and make sure that they understand what we need and what they need to do for us. So yes, you have to be able to be a leader in a follower at the same time and you have to be able to know when you're doing which one because you have to do, like I said, we all have a boss and we all have folks working for us. Yeah, and I'm going to call this out listeners. Even if you're listening to Abram speaking, you're thinking, well, I'm self-employed. I don't have a boss. Yes, we all have bosses. Those could be our clients. They could be our customers. There's so many different ways that that shows up. So Abram, I feel like everyone always talks about leadership. They don't necessarily talk about followership. This is something to me that is very unique about the way that you approach that, which makes your approach very practical. I have to

14:43talk to us about those. Are they similar skill sets? Are they different skill sets? How can we apply our leadership skills to also being a great follower as well? So I think it was a Greek philosopher Solone who said, you can't be a great leader without being a great follower. Right. As a follower, we have to understand what's my boss's intent and how do I go about doing that? Right. And when we can understand that and we understand my job is to understand that vision, understand that intent, and then figure out what can I do to make that happen? Right. Once we understood how to do that, then that really helps you understand then how do I do the same thing for the folks that work for me? How do I give them my vision, my intent? How do I give them the direction and guidance and purpose that they need so that they can go out and do what needs to do, what they need to do to make us all successful? Right. How do we move this organization forward? Well, they need that guidance and direction from us. And so, right, that does mean we tell them exactly what to do, right? I love the word intent because it's, here's what we're trying

15:47to do. You go and figure out how to make that happen the best way possible, right? You're an expert in the field, you're a technician, here's what we need to accomplish and why we need to do it, you figure out how to make that happen. So being a great follower means that you can do that for your boss, right? Whether that's, and like you said, no, your customers are the worst, are the most demanding bosses you'll ever have are customers and clients. I just said that to a group of people yesterday that were entrepreneurs or entrepreneurs in the making. And I said, no, you think you're going to be your own boss. That is simply not true. Your customers are the most demanding bosses you'll ever have. And then having said that, understanding what they need and making their vision happen, that's your job as an entrepreneur. Yeah, it's so true and really well said. And what it calls out in my mind is hearing you talk about this, I think, well, that's the antidote to micro management. You're not going to end up micro managing someone. I don't care how things get done. Here's what I would like to get done. Go be you go. There's a reason why you're on this

16:50team is because you're great at what it is that you do go find that how and bring us there. Abram to me really the other part of that is why we're doing it, right? So it's not just what to do, but why what's the intent behind it? And then they can go and figure out the how. So hearing you say that to me, that's kind of blending management leadership. I guess I've never thought about it until this very moment is management different from leadership. Obviously, management is part of leadership. How do those two relate to each other? How I always approach it, leadership is all about people. We lead people and then we manage resources. We can manage a budget. We manage a schedule. We can manage an IT network. We can manage a fleet of vehicles, right? We manage stuff. We manage resources. We lead people. Now are people resources? Yes. So we certainly need to manage them. If you run a restaurant and you have to bring it all your way staff, but none of your cooks, that's not going to be a very good evening for you, right? So we have to manage the, we have to have the right number of cooks, the right number of

17:53white staff to be, that would be a management type of thing. But leadership is all about people. So we lead people. We manage resources. And yes, we have to be able to do both, right? You're the greatest leader ever. If you run a restaurant and everything you can walk on water and they would do anything for you, but nobody orders the food, you're still not serving dinner that night. So yeah, we have to be able to manage resources and lead the people. Yeah. Oh, I love that differentiation. I'm totally going to steal that in conversations. And especially internally, it's an important reminder for all of us because it's, it's shows why both functions exist at the same time as well. And so hearing you say that Abraham, I feel like it always pops up in these types of conversations about people who feel that inherently some people are born leaders. Some people might point to your background and say, Oh, well, you went to West Point. You were around amazing leaders. You have had that sort of training. They feel like Abraham, you can speak. So eloquently, especially off the cuff listeners, I'll know that there's no pre-playing questions. You've not been primed with anything here today. But Abraham, a lot of

18:55people are going to chalk that up to you being the way you are. Of course, you've got a response to that. So speak directly to those people who don't feel like a born leader. I think there's lots of different theories of leadership, right? So everybody has, you know, if you, if you can't sleep at night, Google theories on leadership, you'll be up all night or actually probably fall asleep as soon as you start reading. But lots of different ideas. I like to think about it as a skill. And it's a skill that anybody can learn. Now, we can all get better. Now, you know, for instance, if you want to throw a baseball in the major leagues, if you want to be a major league pitcher, you got to be able to throw a 95 mile pass pass ball, right? Currently, I can throw, I don't know, 35, 40. Am I ever going to be in the major leagues? Probably not going to make it, right? But I can get better than I am. And so do I have, you know, so do some people have a natural talent? Yes. But they still have to practice it and develop that talent. Other people

19:57may have to work harder at it, right? They may not have the same, uh, same, uh, Christmas or the same speaking skills, but they're going to have other things, other skills that they can bring to their leadership journey. And as long as they're willing to work and take, you know, deliberate practice to build that skill, like in the other skill, it doesn't matter if you're learning the language or playing sports or learning to play the piano, it still takes practice and leadership is no different. So as long as you're willing to put the time of the effort in, earlier you said about riding the bike, there's a great quote and I can't remember. I think it's a guy by the name of Mitzinger who said, leadership like swimming cannot be learned by reading, right? Sooner or later, you got to do it. Sooner or later, you got to jump in the water and actually try it. Um, and, and I think leadership's the same thing, right? I love to read. I read lots of history. Sooner or later, you got to jump in and actually try it. All right. Well, then if you're taking us there, you want to talk about practice. Let's talk about practice. How can we go from hearing about this type of stuff on a podcast episode or inside of a business book and then practicing it because I have a strong emphasis on reps. So I'd love for us to walk away from

21:00this conversation knowing how we can start putting those reps in our day-to-day lives in our business lives. Our audience, some of them may, may still have nine to fives. A lot of them are business owners. So Abraham, what do those reps look like? How do we practice it? Well, first of all, I think if you're an elitorship, bro, you got to, you know, we talked earlier about management and leadership. I think the challenge most of us have is 99% of the things we deal with on the daily basis are management. If you open up your email and you go through your email, the vast majority of that's management stuff. And it takes so much time and so much oxygen to make so much noise in our lives. We never get around to doing the leadership stuff. We just get overwhelmed with management and we never get around to the leadership role. And so we got to make time. We got to say, I am going to specifically take time to work on my people's skills or work with my people, right? What do they need for me? And so we have to make sure that we're taking the time because otherwise we get over around with the management side of the house. Not that that's not important.

22:01It has to happen, but it can't be all we do. And if you're not currently in one of those roles, you can start looking for ways to inject yourself, right? You know, hey, the, you know, the summer picnic is coming up. Can I be in charge of running the summer picnic and planning that, you know, for the company picnic or the company Christmas party or is there some event is, you know, we have a big client coming. Maybe you can volunteer for a portion of that or there's the report that's doing. You're going to find a better way to do this report every month. I mean, there's things that we can put ourselves into that system and say, look, give me a shot. Let me figure this out. Let me take on those responsibilities and get some practice, get some reps, right? So I think if you're already in that role, I think it's making sure we take the time to do the leadership because we tend to get overwhelmed with management stuff. If you're not in that role and you want to be, it's finding ways to insert yourself in that and say, hey, you know, let me have a shot at doing this.

23:01Yeah, Abraham, I want to broaden the conversation actually because hearing the way you talk about these things, it brings me back to so frequently on the air, I find myself repeating that entrepreneurship is simply a microcosm for life. To me, I've grown so much. I started my first business when I was 19 and I feel like my life maturity has also aligned with my business maturity because it has taught me so many skills. It has made me uncomfortable so many times, which is where so many of those growth moments are. Abraham, can you talk to us or give us some examples? I know that you've seen this countless times about how we often pigeonhole ourselves into thinking the stuff you and I are talking about today is restricted to our professional roles, but really, and especially leading up to today's conversation, I find how much of the stuff that you talk about and help others with, those are life things that you're inviting us to step into. What's that side of the world look like? I know, as we said earlier, leadership's all about people, right? And so we deal with people in a wide, right? If you're coaching your kids' soccer team, you're dealing, I mean, the kids are

24:06another pretty much people most of the time, right? If you work in, if you're active in your church, you're surrounded by people, if you're in the Elks Club, you're surrounded by people, everything that we do deals with people, even if sometimes it's in a virtual setting, sometimes it's face to face, but it's still all about people. And so the leadership skills that you learn in one realm are going to translate to the next, because it's as long as you're working with people, it's the same. One of the things I really enjoy about what I do is I'll sit down with a CEO from this, say, a construction company, and they'll say, you don't understand, construction is very different. And they'll give me, you know, here's some really unique things that only us construction people deal with, and they'll give me a list of eight to ten things that only they have to deal with. And then I'll go down and sit down with somebody from, let's say, healthcare, and they'll say, you don't understand, it's very different here in healthcare, and they'll give me the exact same list of eight to ten problems they're dealing with. Why are those lists the same? Well, because it's

25:08people, it's all about people, right? And so wherever the skills of working with people, I mean, are going to be largely the same. You know, it's dealing with middle school kids might be very, might be slightly different than dealing with high school or college or adults, but not vastly different. At the end of the day, we're all still people. Yeah, so well said. Hey, remind me, knew that time would fly by with you here today, but I want to squeeze two more questions in because I do want to at least talk about you as the fellow entrepreneur as well, because I think it's so cool how much you've taken your entire life and professional careers experience and obviously spun it into an incredible company that has served so many different teams, leaders, people, individuals, organizations. I love the, to me, it's really special. The depth and breadth at which you go with your clients because that's your secret sauce is that you do go across those boundaries. And I love that example of the same eight problems that you see in construction and in healthcare and all those ways. So, Abraham, I'm going to ask you

26:10this question as a fellow entrepreneur. What are some of those things that have surprised you about entrepreneurship? Because it is what I'm going to use your concept. It is the same, but different. What are some of those things that have stood out in your entrepreneurial journey? I think coming from the military background, I was really surprised. I had no idea how important networking was. I was a Navy Asian guy. I never had to go fly flying clients or customers. People came looking for me. Or they were, I got an order. They go support this unit. And so this idea that you actually have to go out and meet people and talk to lots of folks and how much, many times you have to hear no. Or how many times you tell people what you do, you just get a blank stare like they don't get it. And learning that's okay. I don't have to get every person I talk to as a client. If I get one out of 100, I'm doing okay. And the value of talking to people

27:12and getting out there and kind of sharing what you're doing. And then getting feedback. That was the other thing. Trying to get that feedback from people in understanding what is it that the customers want? What is it that the market is looking for? Just in the time I've been doing it, you see there's certain topics that are constant, that kind of rise and fall. During the pandemic resiliency was a big topic. Now it's giving feedback. I get that request all the time. And now it's about different generational differences. And so you kind of have these topics rise and fall over time. And I never really understood that. And like I said, the big thing I think for me was how hard it is or how important it is to build a network. And then how long and how difficult that process can be to do that as well. Yeah, it's the important stuff. And you're right. None of us coming back to the writing as part of the conversation. None of us were prepared for that. There's no way to be ready for it unless you just start doing it. And really, even in that

28:17answer, I feel like you shared with us is that how, yeah, you can't predict the market trends, but you can certainly ride those waves. And it's so important for all of us to have that adaptability, which of course, again, is one of those great skill sets of a leader. So Abram, I'm just going to put you on the spot one last time. It's the only question that I ask in every episode. And that is what's your best piece of advice for listeners knowing that we're being listened to by both the entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs at all different stages of their own growth journeys. What's that one thing you want to leave them with today? Probably what we just said, like, you know, you just have to get out there and talk to people, get out there, see what people need. You have to talk about what you're trying to do and get that feedback from the marketplace because that's really what drives any business, right? We're all looking for customers. And what we think they want may not be what they want. There's lots of examples of things I was sure was going to be a great product and nobody wanted. And then there's other times where people have asked me for things that I would not have considered, being something that people would want to talk

29:20about. And so it's really, I think, important as if you want to start a business or even now, if you are in that business to get out there and kind of say, hey, here's what I'm doing. Here's what I think I want to do, like, you know, and be open to that feedback. It can hurt some days, right? Because you have a great idea and nobody else gets it. But that's incredibly valuable, right? We don't want to charge headlong down the wrong road. No, we have to identify the problem that people have and then be able to figure out how can I solve it? In the Army, we had a great quote, we had a great saying, right? Great attack, wrong hill. And so you'll have to make sure you understand the problem before you charge up the hill to solve it. Oh, I've never heard that quote. I absolutely love that. It's something that we have to really heed the advice and the guidance of the people that were meant to serve. And I feel like that's a theme that popped up so many times throughout our conversation today is that we do have bosses. And it's important

30:21to listen to those bosses. And I really appreciate the emphasis on that. That's the real stuff. Took me a long time to learn as an entrepreneur in Abraham. I'm so grateful for you fast-tracking so many of our listeners because it is a tough lesson to learn. And hearing you say that doesn't mean it's going to be easy. It doesn't mean it's advice that we just, oh, we follow it. And then all of a sudden we get the answers that we need. No, it does come with a lot of rejection, does come with a lot of wrong turns. And I'm so grateful for you so generously and transparently sharing it with our audience. I'm also very excited for them to go deeper into all the incredible work that you're doing. You're putting so much good stuff into the world. It's very clear to me, even before today, how much you love digging in with teams and organizations and leaders from all different industries, all different walks of life. So, Abraham, for listeners who want to find you and your business online, drop those links on us. Where should listeners go from here? My website is demarkocg.com, d-i-m-a-r-c-o-c-g.com. I'm also on LinkedIn at abram.demarko or abram.demarko

31:21or at demarko consultant group. I have both. And then on Facebook as well. And my email, abram.demarko.gmail. So, any of those are a great way to contact me. And I'd love to talk about this stuff. So, please reach out. We'll have a great time discussing whatever it is that you have on your mind. Yes, and listeners, you already know we're making it as easy as possible for you to find all those links down below in the show notes and no matter where it is that you're tuning in today's episode. So, definitely check those out. You can click right on through so many cool and accessible places that you can find abram in all his amazing work. So, abram on behalf of myself and all listeners worldwide, thanks so much for coming on the show today. Oh, thank you for the invitation. This has been a lot of fun. Hey, it's Brian here. And thanks for tuning in to yet another episode of The Wantrapener to Entrepreneur Podcast. If you haven't checked us out online, there's so much good stuff there. Check out the show's website and all the show notes that we talked about in today's episode at TheWantrapenerShow.com. And I just want to give a

32:23shout out to our amazing guests. There's a reason why we are ad-free and have produced so many incredible episodes five days a week for you. And it's because our guests step up to the plate. These are not sponsored episodes. These are not infomercials. Our guests help us cover the costs of our productions. They so deeply believe in the power of getting their message out in front of you. Awesome, entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs that they contribute to help us make these productions possible. So, thank you to not only today's guests, but all of our guests in general. And I just want to invite you. Check out our website because you can send us a voicemail there. We also have live chat. If you want to interact directly with me, go to TheWantrapenerShow.com, initiate a live chat. It's for real me. And I'm excited because I'll see you as always every Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday here on The Wantrapener to Entrepreneur Podcast.