1173: Bri Ussery: The Relationship Between Order and Meaning

0:00Are you looking to build an exceptional team? Our hiring toolkit bundle at Luannaigara.com forward slash store is your comprehensive source for success. Craft compelling job descriptions. Know the right interview questions to ask and implement a thorough evaluation process so you get the right person. These were developed in collaboration with my cousin Eileen Hahn and based on her 40 years of experience in building exceptional teams plus might insights from 1000 plus interviews. Our toolkits are tested and proven whether you're scaling from 1 to 3 or from 3 to 10 or from 10 to 20. The hiring toolkit bundle provides the guidance that you can use to plan your hiring strategy effectively. Go to Luannaigara.com forward slash store and invest in your success by investing in the success of your team. Welcome to a well-designed business. My name is Luannaigara and I'm so glad

1:11you found this podcast. Together with my husband Vince and our partner Bill we have grown our company window works from the ground up. So I know and I understand the challenges you face in running your interior design business. I also know that your talent alone isn't enough to ensure your success. So on this podcast we talk about strategies and practical steps to help you grow your business but make no mistake about it. We have our share of fun here too mixed in with those aha moments that I love so much. This isn't fluff. Nobody has time for that. Whether you are a new interior designer or a season designer I am here to help you create and to manage the kind of interior design firm that you dream of. It's straight talk and it's action. Are you ready? Let's get started. Today on a well-designed business I am talking with someone whose brain works very differently than mine and this is one of the primary reasons why I have

2:11so much respect for her. You know I say all the time I'm not the COO type the chief operating officer type. That's the vincennes and others in our field right. I'm not the spreadsheet girl. I'm not the systems architect girl but I deeply respect these types of people because they are the ones that work alongside us helping us bring to life the ideas that we feel and we know are right for our business. My guest today is Bri Yusri. She is a strategist and a fractional COO who works alongside you interior design principles to build what she calls the operational architecture behind exceptional creative work and this is the thing she doesn't drop just drop in to operations from corporate America. She actually started in interior design just like you she understands the pace the pressure the emotion the moving parts because she's been inside the studio. Now she chooses to partner with design firm owners to

3:13strengthen how projects move how decisions are made how communication flows and how a business measures its own health and we're not just talking about systems alone because most of you listening have some sort of systems at this point. You've got software you've got workflows you've got onboarding decks you've got weekly update emails but yet you're still dealing with when things are feeling a little chaotic still dealing with timeline wobbling right still feeling like you're carrying the cognitive load of every single project well Bri is going to introduce a framework around communication that might change how you think about your operations entirely and if you've ever said but you know it was in my contract I don't know why the client didn't know that or if you've ever thought I told them already how this works if you've ever felt frustrated that a client just didn't seem to get it well in this episode is for you we're going to talk about authority clarity documentation

4:17expectations and how the language you use either stabilizes your projects and sets them up for success or quietly derails them right so here's the thing this isn't about being stricter it's definitely not about being less creative it's about everything lining up right so be prepared this is going to be a good one I'm happy to share it with you and before we get to it I have to tell you about June LaLoi if you're already familiar with LaLoi rugs you know that they've been in the trade business for over 20 years with a focus on personalized service and great design June LaLoi comes from the very same family and builds on that expertise but expands it into total home furnishings everything from furniture and rugs to lighting and wall art all curated with quality and value in mind so if you're a trade member you can get access to exclusive pricing and dedicated service which makes the whole process super easy you can learn more

5:20and apply to be a trade member at June LaLoi.com forward slash trade that's J-O-O-N L-O-L-O-I dot com slash trade the link will also be in the show notes all right let's meet Bri hey Bri thanks so much for joining me on a well-designed business today K-L-L-N good to see you yeah so I have to tell you I have the furthest skill set on the planet from a COO literally in the dictionary it's like my picture with an X over it okay but I admire COOs so much you are just to get it done people it's just I love COOs so I'm super super excited to have you on this show because I always learn a little extra no-gees thing from people like yourself where your brain clicks just a little differently and what

6:24I understand is that you have a four-part framework or four pillars that you use to help us write brain lunatics understand you know what it takes to have a good strong operational background and my question is should we start there or do we have to take a step back first you tell me where we start Bri yeah I think maybe we need to take a step back first the the framework that I want to talk about today is specifically in regards to language and communication and how you know in my world as a COO it's all about systems and operation and there's a lot of information coming at designers all the time about this software build this system but what I want to talk about is that systems are good and necessary and important but without layering in language to those

7:26systems that give those systems meaning and give the clients an understanding of those systems it's incoherent it's it's kind of pointless to have a good system if you don't have that language piece on top of it okay so now I'm gonna jump through the screen and hug you that's really what I'm gonna do yeah because you know what it is like what I'm hearing right off the bat what I'm hearing is I'm my brain is you know running through all the cabillion conversations that I've had with my own chairman of the board coaching clients and it's like literally the thing that I hear so often is well I told them how it was gonna go or it's in my contract that we're gonna do this or I don't understand because in the proposal it blah blah blah and I'm like the fact that you're getting pushback here just tells me that you're the only one clear

8:27about this like and it's so funny because I'm right now in the middle of literally reviewing for two three different COBs right now their planning guides they're on boarding documents they're welcome packs and because I don't look at it like a designer I look at it like a garden variety human and I'm just like sometimes I'm like super impressed I'm always impressed because I'm not grading there's no D papers in these things by the time you come me to coach with me you've been around the block a little bit right you know and you've been doing some things right and you're looking to make that next push that next level up but even for season designers five eight ten years in business there's a lot of things that they make us and it's and we all do it in our own industry right make assumptions that something's clear to somebody else like one of the examples she'll hear herself in it which is three layers of service and I'm like no I know that you have three layers of three different service

9:31still verbals because we've talked about it but in this presentation of it no they're all melding together for me I'm not and you think that line there that says this one comes with shoppable shoppable links that's telling me as a consumer I'm gonna do the work myself you're out of your mind that's not clear you have to say I'm doing nothing here like you can tell it to me because I'll be like oh links that you can go click on and buy for me like you know I'm saying because there's a level a lot of designers and you work with them so you know we'll have that that entry-level client that they do like a DIY version where they get the design but then they do the work the client does the work themselves so this is what we're talking about Bri it's like it's clear to the designer but that there's not language to make it clear to the consumer is that what I'm hearing yeah definitely and I think your point of like onboarding materials welcome decks things like that even in your about page on your website as a designer the language that you use to describe your studio

10:35and the process that you're going to shepherd the client through is how you signal your expertise your authority and also the value that you are providing to a client and I see this a lot you know designers that we're creative like you you it's pretty natural to lean into the good vibes and the aesthetics and talk about the emotional connection you want your clients have to your home and that is all good and valid and necessary but if you're also not talking about the rigor that's behind your practice and your discipline the client doesn't know that and I think like I see a lot use of the word collaborative process oh my god but yeah I'm a luxury designer and I want to do it myself and then complain to me and all my oh your peers that they keep

11:36budding into the process and sending me links and sending me Pinterest boards right exactly like collaborative is not what you think it means in the case you don't want to share authorship of the design with someone you don't want to co-create you don't want them sitting behind your shoulder while you're on CAD moving stuff around or letting them loose in your you know fabric library that's not that's not what we're trying to do here so it's just like small little tweaks like that with language if you look at it through that lens is am I clearly communicating what I'm bringing to the table how I'm gonna steward you through complexity during this two-year-long process that we're about to go through I you know what you had a phrase there that I think hits you between the eyes is the rigor behind it right that's a very good word choice for that because I know that many designers because they love what they do so

12:43much yes they would tell you that it's that it's hard work and it's all the things but it's happy hard work right like what I do is happy hard work it's hard work but I'm happy to do it right so it's the thing is if you don't really sit there and pull apart what really goes into that happy hard work why if you're not talking about it if you're not communicating it well then how do you you expect that the client not to just be like well you just love what you do you're having so much fun let's just do another room and like we're just gonna talk about it in the front door right like right you don't I'm saying yeah and I think you know design is especially victim to that mentality because the part that's legible to the general public and to society the part that they see is the visual aspect of design like there's no behind the scenes documentaries

13:44about you know a detailed mill work drawing or you know what all all goes into a construction documentation package like it's not fun it's not glamorous it's not what designers put on their Instagram and so I do think there's this understanding of clients especially if they haven't gone through this process or worked with a design number four of like this is intuitive this is about yeah and point of view and aesthetics not this like really disciplined meticulous rigorous work that it requires not only in like the detail of design but also you're in the financial stewardship of a project in the managing the broader project team and all of these collaborators it's it's it is happy fun work but it is it's hard work beautiful fun work right right right you know it's funny I was recently at Las Vegas market and I did a

14:45presentation there and there was a you know a something to him up about scope creep and stuff like that right and it was so funny because you know I said you know look I'm gonna use a silly example like we're standing here we're we're supposed to be working on the kitchen or whatever it is and you are hard at work in the kitchen with the consultation with the client and trying to nail down details blah blah blah and now the client is like you know you know that chandelier over there in the dining room like you know should we take it down should we put it up should we do this should we do like I saw this let me show it to you on my phone blah blah blah and I said and the thing about it is is you know your brain is like hey we're not working on the dining room that's not part of the the agreement that's not part of the scope right and you want to get offended that they asked about well I just I just wanted to know if I should use that chandelier or a different one but I said think about why you don't want to answer the question and I think this gets to the heart of what you were

15:45just saying about all of the work that goes into it behind the scenes I said think about why you don't want to answer the question I said yeah there's one part of you that doesn't want to answer because you're not getting paid for it I said but really isn't the real reason why you don't want to answer the question is because when you look over at that dining room and they're like should I use this chandelier or that chandelier your brain starts clicking well is that still the dining room table is that going to be the area rug are we changing those window treatments and what about the color in the room is that going to happen and are we leaving the paneling on that wall and is the brick staying on the fireplace because you know to give a good answer to this chandelier or this chandelier it actually takes a tremendous amount of expertise to assimilate all of the information to give an answer and I said so how about and just sit instead of saying well you know how about you say you know what that would require a complete you know discovery process about the

16:47entire dining room and what's staying and not going and if you want I'm happy to give you a change order and add you know the scope of work for the dining room but otherwise it would be really unprofessional for me to just pick a chandelier like you know what I'm saying it's like and they all just looked at me and I'm like like that's like because I've done this as window treatments oh should I keep those window treatments should I get new ones I don't know sweetie what else is staying and going like this is a big thing right and so and that's the rigor behind it that you're talking about right Bri yeah the the studying of it but also you know the like you said the thinking through not just is that paneling staying is is this the dining room table but also like and what height does that like who's gonna tell the person that's hanging that chandelier how how hiding it and so yeah it's it's it's not as simplistic as it appears to be sometimes. Well and the thing is so to your point with language here right designers know all of the rigor

17:52that goes behind it but what you're identifying is there is a lack of communicating it in an easy breezy sort of I'm just informing you kind of way through your website through your marketing through your onboarding conversations and your discovery calls like it's up to the designer to know it but then to communicate it is the point right yes not like you know bang it all the way through right the the language that you use either communicates value authority and expertise or it's introducing like a little ambiguity or uncertainty about those very important postures you want to maintain throughout a project yeah so then so then walk us through it so the four pillars so I'm assuming these four pillars are gonna give us some clarity on how we start to think about how we do communicate is that correct yes so we just talked about the first one that that language signals expertise value and authority okay and then the second one is

18:57communication sets the pace so when I think about this pillar or look at it in the context of a project and language and how we're communicating with clients I think about you know clients don't know how long things take what dots are connected to other dots what affects the critical path or things downstream and so it's our job as designers to explicitly communicate and and tying it back to that like relationship between systems and language the system most studios have is that they send weekly update emails right every week client gets an email and it's like hey this is what we worked on this week here's looking ahead for next week here's other open outstanding items etc that's a system but unless you're creating meaning within that system by what you're

20:00communicating through that weekly update it's kind of a nothing burger right so if you're right yeah like white noise yes so if you're saying hey this week we did a design presentation we you know worked on this worked on that take a look at the the deck when you have a chance and let us know your feedback is very different from we did a design presentation this week here's the deck we need your written feedback compiled in a single email by this date exactly in order to maintain the project timeline or if it's like a proposal in order to prevent having to re-quote re-select etc so like you have to if you don't name the expectation name the implications they're like cool I will wait I am all the time in the world to do this yes and I'm going to send you

21:02a text and an email and then a contradicting DM on Instagram when I saw this tile that I really liked um yeah you have to I hear a lot of talk and boundaries are important there's a lot of talk about boundaries but I like to think of boundaries as like a container you have to give them the container to put things in um instead of like drawing a line in the sand it's like here's the container yeah yeah here's what will work this is these things are all good I love that you're nailing that down because I've also had recent conversations where you know whoever you know whichever coaching client is saying like I would love to follow up and blah blah blah and like you know this is this is for all conversations ever this is a typical thing I do it with the window works team the salespeople the window works team and they'll be like oh this person hasn't called me back and I was did the presentation two weeks ago and I've sent you know two emails and I've done this and I blah blah blah and I'm following I'm like well what does the email say oh hey

22:04just following up you know wondering if you have any questions and I'm like you see that's not designed to get a result like that's not designed to get a result it's like I don't care if you make it up hey I'm checking in because the quote I gave you two weeks ago I've got 40 yards of fabric on reserve and reserve reserve is running out I need to know by end of day if we're doing this or not we cannot do it we can make an alternative plan we can go other places but this fabric is leaving right like this fabric is leaving the train you're not going to get it right it's like you got it like to your point you know what what do we want them to do we don't need to be just like whatever you think whatever you need do you have any questions it's like yeah you you you are leading this ship you were steering this ship the client is allowed to change course and right and point you in the direction but to the point of our you know earlier point about collaboration

23:05you're the one leading this project it is not a truly collaborative process where the client gets to dictate you you can't run a timeline or a schedule or a project with flexibility in that sense with open-ended systems and processes yeah the thing is that we know that we have to deliver more higher level of deliverables to the luxury client we know that they pay more money they get more things all the things but that doesn't mean it doesn't come without that box of boundaries right it's like if I understand that this decision hinges on that decision on that decision and there's a timeline and I don't do my thing in that timeline but you tell me ahead of time that I'm the one like didn't I are just going through a renovation and you know the job is on job trend or something which is like my doma studio but for builders right and so

24:07in job trend you know they'll do things and they'll be like pinging us hey approval on this approval on that and there have been a couple of times over the six months where because I don't read my emails let's be serious and this is personal so I don't have Mariali doing it for me yeah and so you know Gina the project manager will sometimes come in and text me and on a Thursday and should be like you've had an approval in job trends since Monday we're losing we're losing we're losing daylight Lou like you're gonna screw the calendar up and then I'm like oh my god you know but she's not like hey just wondering how you're doing and what you thought about the tile right she's like she comes in and she's like yeah the tile is planning to come like you're doing it or not doing it like where are we at like and so and I'm not like offended I'm not I'm just like these are the rules of the game and I'm trusting them to lead me through that process and

25:08they might have to kick me a little bit along the way right but they're not like not trying to hurt my feelings during it you know I'm saying yeah and I think you know being clear and setting expectations naming implications that's not like the opposite of warm you don't have to do it you it's not rigid or cold you can still be warm and kind and and friendly and use your personality and your tone when I talk about language I'm not talking about tone and your personality it's just in the in the choice of words and how clearly what you were trying to communicate gets communicated yes I mean you know what it is too I think that you tell me when you work with the designers that you work with in your business I feel like a lot of times I'm just simply saying what is it that you want to have happened here like to the designer what is

26:09it like you want to send an email what what result do you want from this email well I need to know if they're going to sign the agreement and they're going to go ahead because I'm supposed to do the consultation next week or whatever and I'm like okay and if they don't do it what happens well they said they wanted next Tuesday but now I mean if I don't know so I'm like okay so then the email you've had the proposal for three days if you have a question let me know otherwise am I planning to see you Tuesday or not like like like don't leave that part out right like put that part in it's okay to put that part in to your point doesn't mean all of a sudden you're rude but if we know what we want from the email it's up to us to say what we want from the response right yeah totally and I think you know I could go off on a huge tangent about most all of my clients

27:09are women and most I would say most designers are women and there is the women of it all about it where we're you know socialized and taught to soften ourselves to hedge our communication and to lead with kindness and warmth and I think leading with kindness and warmth for me are the same as being clear I think clear is kindness I think if you're not clear you're introducing uncertainty in the process and like that feels unsafe as a client when then there's there's that ambiguity and uncertainty of like I don't know what's happening here right well and I I'm with you 110% and the yes and to that is and yes and the designer actually usually does know what the consequences are and what the implications are but by not stating them

28:10in the nicest way possible with sugar and honey and spice all over the damn thing you know you're right you're doing a disservice like if Gina just came into being said you know hey you know the proposals in there for the tile okay whatever I'm off to Vegas see how I'm gonna get back instead she's like the proposals in there for the tile if I don't get it yes or no we're not gonna order it in time to be installed on the date that's in the job trend well that's a very different thing and you know what I do then I stop what I'm doing and I open the darn job trend and I look at it and I go huh approved done or one time I open it up I'm like this is nonsense Jay I'm like I'm not approving this where did this number come from right and so but I would I would not if she were just without giving me that clarity that full communication of why I have to do it and what will happen if I don't yeah I'll be like every other garden variety human go do what I'm doing thinking you got all the time in the world right right and like how how would you

29:13as the client here would you have preferred her to say hey if you don't approve this tile by Friday you know that's gonna add another six weeks to the project because of the lead time or it's about to go out of stock or whatever would you prefer to have that information now when things are like neutral or when you were promised to be in your house by Christmas and it's two weeks before Christmas there's no tile there and you're emotionally charged everybody's emotionally charged and then they're like well you know it took you two weeks to yes you know approve that like that's not the time you're just defer like it might be a little uncomfortable until you get used to communicating in this way at first but if you do that upfront if you front load it in the kindness nicest way possible you're not having to introduce that friction later when

30:14it is going to be received very differently right because now it feels like you're like as the consumer if you hit me with when I'm like we're late why are I why am I not in the house or why isn't the room done and then you pull out well on October 10th you took 10 days to answer me and my contract says that you have to answer in three days like I'm like stop right now with this nonsense you don't need like I'm gonna go into offense yeah I'm gonna go into offense mode I'm gonna be like you know what you had six weeks to tell me I was the problem and now all the sudden I'm giving you a problem about not being in and now you're gonna tell me on the problem stop I love it but you know you know like like and I only would know that to be true that I was the problem in that case because of all of these interviews I promise you without all of these interviews if that kind of thing went down I would have been like you're just like I wouldn't say the words in my head you're making this up but I'd be like this is this is bull crap now you're pulling

31:16everything out of your hat like that I did wrong so that they were not done I'd be like what didn't you do right but I can tell you I have jumped every time that I'm aware that something in job trend whether Vinnie of course checking it every 25 seconds there's something in job trend you got to approve that you know like this right because I know from all these conversations that this is the schedule this is the thing this is if she's giving me the tile quote now then she needs to order it now in order for when the tile scheduled for five weeks or now this is when it happens but I would never as organized as this builder is and this builder is amazing js pro in new jersey I'm gonna say it right now the guy and his team are amazing okay but I would not have the slightest idea how amazing he is if I hadn't done all these interviews I would be like well of course you stuff's getting done like that's what's supposed to happen but I you know like I can't you know

32:23buy a milkshake without critiquing the customer service you know them saying I'm like this is ridiculous the line could be that way we can all get out of here faster what is this going on so I would be naturally critiquing the process because it's who I am but having the background depth of what is actually happening on that side of it from having the front row seat to designers and everything that's happening it's like whoa and so I am as much as I can you know I'm respecting when they've got deadlines because of the shared knowledge both the what I've been told by them and there's no you know dancing around it and by what I know from the designers and how to keep a project on schedule but that's not the garden variety human they haven't interviewed 1400 designers they don't know this you don't I'm saying right yeah totally yeah it's crazy okay so that's number two bucket is communication sets the pace right so this this is keeping the project

33:26on pace on track by making sure that the communication is going both ways and then the third one is this one I love the third one is documentation holds the truth and so this is I know this is my favorite one too it's like a nerdy oh my god I just can't with this one I love meeting notes what can I say um but documentation all that holds the truth to me means that any written communication any meetings that are had that then get clearly documented meeting notes afterwards that is your source of truth for the entire project and it's something that you can come back to and rely upon so that you're not relitigating things you're not going back through um you know this is an argument I use for the boundary of like not allowing clients to text you or

34:28call you is because you don't get to have that documentation that historical record of that conversation in a way or in a place that is meaningful but with meeting notes I see a lot of times like it being treated as a summary of the conversation instead of very clear decision matrixes with dates attached to the point of that expectations and implications you know there's a difference between we discussed kitchen layout options versus we decided option B is you know appliance locations are fixed any additional revisions after this will require a re-issuance of the construction documents you know exactly oh my god Bri I just had this conversation two days ago with one of three days ago with one of my chairman of the boards she had a situation on a project

35:30highly documented project she did all her piezing cues and all the things they did a walk through of it piezing cues with the guy that's supposed to do the thing in blah blah blah a couple weeks later comes on to the project something is wrong it's not the way it's supposed to be and um she gets a text from the client then she gets the picture and she's just like oh that's not what we decided you know and the thing about it is what happened in that particular situation it ended up getting resolved okay so you know she's very fortunate she's very smart very level headed and the builder she's working with is also very like we're in this together and the client is also hey you know what we're not curing cancer here we can figure this out so they they they got lucky but it's the client it's the builder that got lucky because she had the walk through and she had the documentation and it didn't change from the the walk through didn't change the documentation and so what we talked about

36:32was she said I am recording it they know I'm recording it and she said and you know I didn't want to do that I'll pull the recording out guys because it felt um because she has a very good relationship with the builder and it just felt aggressive yeah only because the client created a solution that everybody was happy with okay so she's not holding the bag and blah blah blah but I said to her you know maybe it's a simple thing where it's everybody knows you're recording everybody knows this but like before you just tell them before you record at the end we're going to take the final piece of each recording for each room is going to end with so we're all in agreement everything on the documentation is the living truth of this job even though we've talked about this for 25 minutes and we've gone down different rabbit holes we are coming back to the original documented plan or the end of it is after talking about this for 25 minutes we're all in agreement

37:40that I am revising the documentation and the existing documentation is going to be replaced and then everybody says agreed agreed agreed agreed and now there's no nonsense right like you know it's like because that's what felt bad for her to look at the guy and I said to her I've done this with designers for 40 years it's like I've walked jobs yeah 10,000 square foot homes 2000 square foot homes one window 40 windows and I'm the only one with a pen and paper and this is before voice recording and this is before iPhones and this is before all this crap right and I'm the only one and I would I've had designers over the years when I learned after they showed me more than one and two and three times that they are going to debate what was decided when I'm the only one with a pen and paper and they're placing the order six months later now those designers here we just had our meeting you're going to sign off on this this is what we agree to and it was like it changed things because now they had to pay attention

38:46and say oh wait I did say to put the drapes under the crown moldy yes I'm agreeing to that because I fight a nickel for every time I measured a job in September and I'm supposed to put the drape under the crown molding and I get there in May with the damn drape and they're like I would never put it there okay okay you would never just the four houses before that but not this one stop right so I know on this one I told you I didn't want that oh okay right but here it says it so there has to be it's okay to change things but there has to be out loud agreement on it's changed or not changed right Bre? Yeah I mean clearly documented decisions and approvals you know and this doesn't have to be you know what you don't have to you know sign on the dotted line but like sharing meeting notes with like a little caveat at the bottom that says please read this this is our understanding of what was decided or not decided in this meeting um this this is the project record same with yeah you know emails are the project record to it

39:51doesn't have to be like a formal lized document it's any communication that happens and you know I hope that no designer is ever sued or finds themselves in a legal battle but it is good practice and and to protect yourself in the studio to look through the lens of like if five different people read this email these meeting notes would they walk away with five different understandings of this or would is it so coherent and clear that they would all walk away with the same understanding that's it that's that's the like mind shift change that needs to happen in order for that pillar to yeah stand up yeah you know and it's funny I love that clarity of read the email again does it make sense I got an email um last week you know like I said I don't read my own emails but Marrioli comes to me and she's like I'm not sure what to do with this

40:54and I'm like oh what's going on and so she starts to read it and I'm like no no stop it's okay I'll go look at it I literally read this email Bray I had I I am I am a word person I have written three books I do the Sunday crossword time I can read okay yes and I literally was like what and I put it into Chachi B2 and I said am I crazy or is there no point to this and I'm like what am I being as something am I being told something am I being in strife like what is this and the thing was like no you're right this is literally just like a brain dump captured in elegant language that's supposed to mean something but it doesn't and I was like okay great thanks and I'm like like it was nonsense it was three paragraphs of nonsense and I'm like yeah it was bonkers it was bonkers so we can think that we're being clear but to your point if it's can be

41:58construed a different way by a different human then that's not clarity right yeah yeah like I love that save your fluffy forally language for the beginning of the email like hope you had a nice weekend you know yeah flowers flowers flowers yeah but then when you're getting to the meat of it yeah you do not need to add flourish now there and you want it to be clear and the other thing too is I know I'm you're probably as far as communication is concerned going to agree with me when I need a critical answer we're not asking three questions we're sending any email with one question because if there is a critical thing that we need to know especially if it's a point of contention if I ask you three questions and you don't want to answer the one you'll answer the other two and just leave that one off and so when I'm working with my designers I'm like no no no no this is a one question email when are you paying me now when are you paying me and should I stop by on Tuesday

43:01and what color is your dog nope this is when is the check coming email you know yeah right okay all right and then the fourth bucket and pillar here is systems and and how those systems are communicated shape client behavior and how they operate inside of a project it teaches them how to what their responsibilities and ownership are within a project yeah yeah so that that one I think is pretty it's like a distillment of of all the other ones yes if you are clearly communicating what you need from them by when and you're holding firm on the expectations that you've set out any rules or boundaries the client will behave accordingly yeah yeah because the client wants the

44:05project to be good too you know what I'm saying they wanted to be good too they wanted to be effortless they wanted to be you know collaborative in the sense of we get along not that I'm doing your work for you right yeah and and and it's like it's just like anything else if you if you tell them what the rules are will apply by them right yes and I think you know in this work the the client relationship is fragile because you're doing very personal what you're working on somebody's home you're in their families you you know them if you're going to produce a good design that reflects your clients you're getting to know them deeply and personally and so at the same time you're also handling a significant investment of theirs and that requires a lot of trust on both like the they they need to trust you as the visionary they hired to execute the beautiful

45:10end product but then they also need to trust you as the person that's going to carry them through the whole way because from consultation to reveal it could be three years you know that is a long relationship that requires a delicate hand in order to maintain and in the minute that trust erodes which most of the time I think the reason it begins is because of this feeling of instability um that a client has or like uncertainty about authority it's it's really hard to come back once trust is has started to slip yeah especially because like you said the client has so much money on the line and they go into it trusting and hoping the trust is well placed and then when little

46:16things prick away at that now it's like oh and my money is on the line like like like now it gets that extra layer right it's um like when I think about like our our project will be start to finish six months right we're not doing this huge huge thing yeah and I think about if it were that two three year if we were doing a build from the ground up or something and I put myself in the situation where what if I didn't recognize what if I didn't recognize that when I am pinged in job trend to approve or question something that task in there is connected to a timeline that the builder has got in his calendar right like that's what I clearly understand but only from all these podcasts interviews that they're you know I might be like in February if if the just a two year job and you're like asking me hey I didn't get your approval on the tile I might be in my world they give what like God we shouldn't even have sticks up yet like what are we doing here like I don't even see

47:19sheet rocket I'm going to Vegas I'm going to KBS I'll see yeah when I get back right right right but having understood that it's attached and so when I think about if if I wasn't it if I didn't have the experience and I wasn't explained by them at the beginning I could see how a designer or a builder could put up with a client not being responsive not sending the email right back not in the timeframe because they haven't been told to like your email was hey here's a design proposal thanks so much let me know if questions versus your right one which is and I need a response by email in writing with this by this day it's like what I'm saying is if I don't understand it at the beginning as a client and you're worried you're on your end thinking you're being clear but you're not putting the entire loop around what I'm supposed to do it's going to be six or eight months before we're at heads right because the designer is going to have grace for it I'm going to be like

48:24I don't know I'm out here closing all these problems and then finally what's going to happen is something's going to get delayed on the client I'm going to get pissy about it and now you're going to be thinking oh my god you have been torturing me for six months with every decision right and then at the beginning yeah that's the beginning of the semester right exactly not where you want to be you want to be proactive so like yes if you were delayed in approving that tile okay not not the end of the world we don't need to burn it down but I remind you some adjustments and I'm going to do it then I say hey here's the updated gap chart of the project schedule as you can see we've made adjustments to add two weeks to this phase that we're in now because there was a little delay in you approving the tile yeah which then is affecting everybody along the line yep the whole thing yeah the construction documents are going to be two weeks past when we

49:25initially set the deadline and then permitting is going to push and then yeah et cetera et cetera yeah but to your point to just really emphasize it the time to tell me those consequences are in the beginning when I haven't done those stupid things yet you're like right you have to tell me this is how it's going to work we're on a schedule I'm going to send you a thing you're going to prove it if you sit on it you sit on it and I'm just going to tell you the results of you sitting on it that didn't create them I didn't make them you made them of course that's inside voice we say it nicer of course of course but yes at the beginning but then also all the way through it continues right because it is it is a long process yes things compound memories get fuzzy and so it has to be a thread that is like consistent throughout the project in order for it to be coherent and have that meaning that the clients need in order to operate accordingly

50:28and to your point like the consistency has to be there but the consistency also has to be there in the designer showing up with their stuff too you can't tell me you know every time I got to answer you in three days and then like you go to Bermuda and I don't hear from you for a month like I was busy and this happened it might stub my toe no no we we're both going to show up here as adults and we're both going to do the same thing and that comes to and as a COO I'm sure you get involved in that comes to capacity planning right like don't take two projects that your firm can't handle at the exact same time that are going to be in the exact same stages you you have to be the steward of that and it's like yeah I'm so excited I got two two million dollar projects or two five million dollar project but once got a start in January and the other one went out of the start in April otherwise our team can't handle it and then you're going to drop balls right for sure yeah yeah that's up to the designer they have to know their own capacity and they have to

51:33know what they can push through and you know what we had the sponsor show with design assist you know it's not like the old days you know you if you all of a sudden got the opportunity to do another project that was above your capacity you had to like defer it you had to say hanging in or you had to do a crappy job at every process point for both projects but now with design assist you can onboard an agreed interior designer architect into weeks they can help you keep it moving along you know like there's ways now in 2026 to get qualified help the whole outsourcing thing is completely different than 20 years ago it's 20 years ago you were above capacity and you wanted to say yes to a job that you didn't have the room to do you'd be like oh my god I got to find a human I got to train him I got to figure it out now it's not like that right right and I think you know I need to say as as as a systems and an operations person I I need to add this in but these I know we've been talking about language the whole time but it's in conjunction with

52:38the systems right so the thing I want to add is when we talk about systems these are built once you decide escalation paths you have four emails written out and even if you're a newer designer and don't have a large team you're a small nimble team I do think it's important also to have somebody else whether that be a lower level admin person or and this can be like super part time they can be remote but I also find it really really really helpful when it's not the principle the founder yeah being the enforcer of all of these systems they're the visionary creative they're leading of course internally they're leading the whole thing their name is on the door

53:41they're the CEO but client facing I do think it's important to it's really hard to say my project manager needs this done like right like like there's accountability and it doesn't need to be coming from them is what you're saying right yes yeah and and that helps with that it does it's it's like to like soften be nice yeah be generous and yeah and you can be generous and and flexible intentionally without it being running you over because you're being pushed yes yes yeah no I so funny I keep bringing up the chairman of the boards because the conversation just is so on point with all of the weeds of these different clients designer clients but I just said to one is a small team and I just said last week you know we can have an email that's like you know project manager at xyz designed for like you can send the email but it doesn't have to be for you like

54:43like you know what I mean like we can come up with another email and it doesn't have like you don't have like the client doesn't have to know that you're the one seeing and doing everything the it can be you know like listen Mariali does all my stuff it's like I don't do it all I might box her or tell her verbally what it is but it comes from her you know what I'm saying it's like very few emails are personally with me back and forth because I don't have time for it I don't want to deal with it but things have to keep moving and so you know whether it's somebody in your firm and I know that that function is great when you get to the point I had another chairman of the board last year where so many skill sets but isn't good at being the hammer you know and a lot of times throughout our conversations and the coaching year she would say oh my god my husband said the

55:43exact same as you are like holy crow like you my husband said the same thing and I'm like and I love it since she goes I wish I could just have my and I'm like well he could I don't know what his work life is like but like you can have somebody come in and be that gatekeeper and be the one that says that's not how we do things here right it doesn't have to be to your point you don't have to be the systems enforcer client facing you can be the feel good person hey I am here for all the love and the fun right you're working your butt off in the background for sure but you don't have to be the bad guy is the point those weekly emails can come from you know project manager you know dot com you know saying right sure yeah I mean I especially like the mundane benign stuff too like it's it's that's really below your pay grade as the CEO anyways your leadership is better exercised elsewhere yeah and your studio we did a thing at window works at

56:46window works we you have to see see the office you can be cc the office on all the communications because and and we don't keep it forever but like I remember when I would hire an office administrator back in the day or a new salesperson I'm like I'm bcc done everything like you're you're flying you're flying solo but I gotta watch what you're doing I gotta watch I gotta watch are you doing the right communication are you like tying the things down and if I see a red flag I need to walk over to your desk not insert myself in the email and and be that you know but I need to walk over to your desk and say hey I'm just saying you're heading for a crash here I'm just telling you the way this whole conversation's going it's not gonna end good and yeah here's the problem here's what I'm seeing you know blah blah blah and then there's a point where fly little birdie you know we know you got it but this is something that you have to learn is this communication right is the way to do it with kindness and respect and deference for the amount of

57:49tens of hundreds of thousands of dollars that people are spending with you but you said it clarity is kindness like you're not doing anybody favors by not saying what the rules are and playing by the rules because that's how they know again you said it I'm repeating you that their money is safe and that's the bottom line their money is safe right because you know we can forgive if the pillow is going to be laid or the tile you know has to be redone but you mess around with somebody's money and that gets very emotional yeah and not just as my money is safe but like is my money well spent yes that's yeah that's what I mean by safe it's like you know you're not blowing it you know you know what you're doing here right yeah so and you you said it Bri and I was thinking that that the place that I was going to round this out and you you kind of said it a few moments ago is that you're a COO a fractional COO you either create systems for design firms or work with

58:51design firms to establish systems and this is all after the systems are built that everybody in the firm has the clarity you can't send an email that tells a client what to do if you have in first documented how the heck you do the thing right so it's it's the layer upon the systems this communication yeah more it's like baked in yes because it's you know if you're writing an SOP if you built the system for meaning notes and you're writing an SOP and there's like those SO that SOP needs to include a language guide to meeting notes that says these are the types of phrasing that provide clarity avoid these types of phrasing you know it's it's baked in and in in every single layer and again even in things that aren't you know considered super

59:52operational like you're about page or you're welcomed at um it it permeates through everything right right it does and it makes a difference your firm up levels it just it's just I I know I know that there are you know a fraction of one percent of the people that are just they're just miserable and they're out for bear and you know whatever but the 99.9 percent of people are want to want to do like you do they want it to go good they want the communication to be clear they want the understandings to be you know not vague they want the timelines to be understood and it is the job of the designer to establish that not and when the when when I've always noticed is when the consumer starts driving it then I start asking my designer well when did you tell them what was the next step when did you tell them how this would happen oh well you know beat about a bomb like well okay now you have a driver personality that's like where's the

1:00:56train going there's no conductor all right I'll be the conductor you know what I'm saying like yeah you know like you're gonna have the driver personality that's gonna drive the train and then you're gonna have the more late back personality that's just gonna sit there in the background and finally erupt when they don't feel like things are happening but it's all lack of leadership at the beginning of the project and throughout the project right Bri yep yeah authority like where does it lie yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah you know I use the example thousand times on the podcast about like a simple thing when you go into a one-day surgery center for a procedure right like think about the number of times that somebody explains to you exactly what's gonna happen in the six hours that you're in that place you know they tell you in the doctor's office you're gonna go we're gonna call you a day before we're gonna say come at six o'clock or we're gonna tell you come at eleven o'clock and you're not gonna eat this and you're gonna have to that and don't bring your wallet and don't bring your jewelry I mean you bet about and they give it all to you and then you get there and they tell you the whole thing and they tell

1:01:58it all over again and then this is the thing that's gonna happen and like the whole time you're just like okay I this is fine I'm not sitting here at six am going what's next oh my god can my husband come back one day like when is a doctor crazy right they do that to make you feel safe and exactly yeah and to not ask you not to not ask for stupid things too soon right like don't ask me at six am get my husband see me when I'm done I'm gonna tell you he can come in and see you as soon as you're open your darn eyeballs well oh man you know like like that's the thing it's it creates safety but it also helps the consumer whether it's a patient or a consumer for a client I mean a designer to go okay there's a plan just keep hearing the plan it's good they got this but if everybody you get there at six am and everybody's like oh were you supposed to be here at six oh

1:02:59who's taking care of her oh what's happening oh wait are you here to have your leg amputated no I'm hearing a tooth pulled what the heck kind of like a main show is this you know what I'm saying it's like you're just like whoa okay what is happening right yeah and I think to like piggyback on that too I will say in in terms of language it's specifically about processes and what to expect and what's coming next and what we need from you the industry has its own language you know things that that we throw around like FF&E that does your client know what that means no man or like we'll we'll we'll like paraphrase things or make things shorter like we'll use dd and expect a client to know what that means or SD and I I was a designer myself for years owned my own firm before I started doing this work and I'm in a bunch of studios and there are a lot of

1:04:01times where I read materials from a new client that I'm working with yeah that I don't know what they're talking about oh and you were a designer and I don't know what you're talking about because every you know not that I don't know what like that word means maybe but like what do you mean by this by this and every firm has their own process and and way they work through their project and so if I have questions after reading this then yeah we need to take a look at that because yeah yeah the client will surely have questions I remember I don't know if it was two three years into the podcast I don't know why but a couple of times within say a period of I don't know a month or two months coincidentally more than one designer used to defer the term FF&E and when the second the first one I let it go and I was like and then when the second one said I'm like okay I'm sorry

1:05:02what does FF&E mean anyway you know like I just said it on air or whatever I don't know what it means and then also one of my chairman of the boards I'm gonna get the initials wrong she's doing a project where it's like an extra property the extra building on the property so it's like a ADU that's it that's it and she's like boxer me and you know the ADU guy this CDDD and finally the third boxer I'm like pulling up Google I'm like what the heck is an ADU I think we live in this world like we just assume like you're with it you know what's happening you know what's going on but exactly exactly they don't know I know and the thing is it's always when you know when they tell it to you it makes perfect sense but yeah I was just like after the third I'm like okay what the heck do I need to know what an ADU is like to help her through this problem I don't know but maybe I should

1:06:02funny anyway so okay so just give us you know you know a few minutes on how you help and work with designers break sure I'm a fractional COO I do all things operations but I am also a strategist and a thought partner for designers I think you know I love my spreadsheets and my systems and all of that but I think what I love most and working with the clients that I work with is getting to be that true thought partner with them it's it's nice I find that it's nice to have another adult in the room another brain in the room that's not it's a lonely business so with a lot of responsibility right it is and you can't bring everything to your team and there's yeah it's hard it's really really hard owning a business in general is hard and so yeah that's

1:07:12what I do I love it I love it and remind me do they do go to briasseri.com is that where we go yes yes so it's b-r-i-u-s-s-e-r-y.com and of course we'll put the link in the show notes but yeah and if you want I'll send you a link to to I have a I made a little deck oh perfect the communication pillars so you can share that with your audience too if they find it okay we will put that in the show notes and you can go and download it and get that to a download okay I'm making a note for the team yeah I love a little free downloads check this and things like that oh my goodness we'll bring you are amazing I appreciate this conversation so much I you know these are it's this wasn't technically a sales conversation but it kind of was I like for me wordsmithing and figuring out the right way to say the right thing I that negotiation I could do

1:08:14all day long so I love this conversation thanks break I loved it too thank you Luan okay that conversation was right up my alley if you were listening carefully yes it was about communication 100% and it was also about how you run your business I want to walk you back through this because breed did something important she did not tell you to go buy another software she not tell you to build a more complicated workflow she did not tell you need a fancier onboarding deck she told you the system is likely not the problem it's the language around the system that is likely the problem and that's a very different thing let's go back to that first pillar language signals expertise value and authority I wanted you to think about all of your own assets right now your website your onboarding deck now think about how do you describe your process when you start those a beginning initial conversations with potential clients are you leading or are you following

1:09:18there is a difference between being warm and being vague and often we've been socialized a hedge to soften to make sure everyone's comfortable by the time we finish every blasted sentence well here's the truth when you hedge your language you hedge your authority and clients feel it they may not say it but they feel it and when your authority is in question that's when they step in and they start steering and they start inserting themselves because internally they're thinking is this going to go right and if I'm not sure of it I've got to start to take some control here you know it isn't because they're bad people but they've invested a lot of money right and instead it's because you're not clearly signaling that you are the one in charge from the beginning pillar two communication sets the pace this one's huge you might have a system for example where you send weekly updates awesome but if your weekly update says here's the xyz blah blah blah let me

1:10:22know your thoughts you see this is not the same as here's your xyz and we need your written feedback by friday in order to maintain the timeline that we've all agreed to these are two completely different ways of running a project one is passive one is directional if you do not name the expectation and the implication or the risk that will happen clients will default to their own pace and their pace is not your pace their pace is based on their vacation schedule their kids soccer practice their work schedule their mood that day okay but your pace is based on an actual schedule that you set with your team and your trades so if you don't clearly communicate how their responsiveness for example affects the timeline you are setting yourself up later for a little tit for tat right and you don't want to be defensive later you don't want to be saying well you know I said you had email two months ago you know blah blah blah no you want to be proactive from the

1:11:26beginning this brings us to pillar three documentation protects the decision how many times of you revisited decision how many times have you thought wait a second didn't we do this already like a deja vu type of a moment right you might have but if it wasn't documented clearly in writing in a way that you know where to find it when you need it and everybody understands it it didn't really happen I don't know thing is meeting notes are not busy work follow up emails are not administrative they are the historical record of the project I love that brief stress this and you know the thing is if five people read your email and five people walk away with different ideas interpretations of what it said then you're not specific enough so before you hit send ask yourself can this be misunderstood is this decision stated plainly did I say what happens next and did I say what happens if you don't do the next thing right because when you skip this step maybe you think you're saving time but

1:12:29you're actually setting yourself up for a little trouble down the line now let's talk about the client experience in this one of my favorite conversations of all time on this particular topic was with Nate Berkis when I loved about the conversation with Nate was how deeply he understands that luxury is not just about the aesthetics it's about trust it's about safety it's about being guided by a designer who knows exactly where the project is going you cannot create a high-end client experience if your communication is loose you cannot create trust if expectations are implied instead of stated and you cannot create safety for your clients so that they can just do what they do and leave you to do what you do if your authority feels uncertain so at the end of the day systems matter design matters but guess what it's the experience that your client has that's what will be remembered all right and then finally systems and communication will shape

1:13:34your client behavior clients behave according to the structure you will create or allow so if you allow and or do texting at all hours you will get texting at all hours if you allow feedback to come in scattered across email dm text and voice memo well then guess what it will come in via all of these channels if you allow open-ended timelines then that is what you will get but if and when you literally define the container this is how feedback is submitted this is how decisions are made this is when approvals are due most clients will literally follow you right along they want the project to go well just like you do right and when you avoid being clear because you're afraid of sounding rigid you know you're not helping yourself or your client you're just creating confusion and that confusion will erode the trust so go look at one thing this

1:14:36week one onboarding email one meeting no template one weekly update one page on your website look at it and ask yourself is this specific is it unmistakable would anyone possibly misread it if not refine it right this isn't about overhauling entire firm tomorrow it's about tightening the thread that runs through everything you know and breathe is just so insightful about this she understands that this is one of the foundational ways that strong design firms are built so breathe I want to say thank you for this conversation so enlightening love love love it I do know that to some extent it feels simple on the service we're just talking about communication right but I do know that the implications of good or bad communication are real they're big they're real and they're big so when you change how you communicate clients respond differently and when clients respond differently project projects run differently

1:15:39all right now before we go if you happen to be listening to this in real time March 2026 Luane University classes are open okay the enrollment is ending on March 8th Sunday March 8th 2026 classes start the week of March 9th Luane University my friends is not theory it is not casual conversation or fluff every class is built to teach you the mechanics that actually drive profit in your interior design or window treatment business how to run the business behind the business how to protect your margins how to communicate expectations without hedging how to structure for growth all right go to luane university dot com to see the full roster of courses and sign up while you still can all right breathe thanks again for being practical and specific to my favorite things and if this resonated with you this conversation with bree please go visit breeuse3.com briusse ry.com download her resource deck the architecture of communication we've got

1:16:48a goodie for you too we created one page audit to help you apply bree's knowledge that she shared with us today right away you can download it by going to luane nigara.com forward slash goodies as always thank you tons for listening you're building a business you are responsible for real outcomes and the fact that you are here means that you care about doing it well and i'm sending you a virtual high five thanks tons for joining me decide to be excellent thank you so much for joining me again today this podcast is a production of window works your resource for custom window treatments and awnings to learn how we can help you on your next interior design project go to www.windowworks-nj.com and if you're interested in working with me on your business either through masterminds or one-on-one coaching or you want to know how to get my book the making of a well-designed business or you just want to know what's going on in the podcast land and where

1:17:51I'm going to be all of that is found at luane nigara.com thank you so much have an excellent day