Why is there a war on raw milk? | Jerm Warfare

0:30I say trenches, obviously metaphorically, but there is an information war, I mean, particularly around milk. I mean, just about everywhere you go in the world, you cannot drink unpasteurized milk. Well, not in the States. We've been working on this for 25 years. So the milk is regulated by the States, not the federal government. So what we've been doing is working on the state level to liberalize the laws. We have a website, realmilk.com, and when we started, there were about 30 sources of raw milk in America. And now there's about 5,000. So it's very available in America.

1:31Now in other parts of the world, it just depends. But we also list sources in Europe and other places. What is your background? I'm an English major, of course, that totally qualifies me for what I'm doing. Actually, no wait, hold on, that does qualify you because I think people who get stuck into the academic paradigms, they get restricted by the lanes in which they are put. That's right. Well, you know, the other English major, who's made a name for himself, is Joel Salatin, the famous farmer. Yes. So I like to say that neither of us is qualified for what we do, but no, but I'm a writer and I wrote a book called Nourishing Traditions that sold very well and has been quite influential and I've written other books besides, but Nourishing Traditions was what that was the first volley in this war against the low fat paradigm, the pasteurized milk paradigm.

2:39Well, let's just start with the absolute basics because somebody told me recently that just drinking cow's milk as a whole is not a good idea. Yeah. You know what, Jeremy, I've been around a long time and I have yet to see a person turn into a cow by drinking cow. When we looked, and of course, we look at the work of Western price and the healthiest people that he studied were those who had heard and were drinking raw cow's milk or raw goat's milk. We have the example in Scandinavia of the people who drink reindeer milk, they're very healthy. We have the Mongolians who drink mare's milk. We have people in Africa who drink camel's milk all over the world for thousands of years. People have drunk the milk of various species of animals and they're healthier for it because milk is such a complete food.

3:39I was in China a few months ago and I drank camel's milk and it wasn't too bad. Yeah. camel's milk is saltier than other milk, which I think is kind of interesting. Yes, but it wasn't too bad. I won't drink it on purpose. Well, cow's milk is just so absolutely delicious when the cows are eating grass and when it's full fat. It's just like an elixir. But then, Sandy, why is there a war on unpasteurized milk? Well, it started back in the 1800s and we really did have a problem with the milk at that time. The milk in New York and other cities was filthy. It was coming from confinement dairies in the cities and the cows were eating this will from whiskey production. So they're very poorly nourished. They actually added chalk to the milk to make it look white. And the death rate among children in these cities was 50%.

4:43Now, wasn't only the fault of the milk, there were no sewers, there was no clean water. I mean, the cities were just squalid, the festering heaps of horse and mule manure. And all of this was called the milk problem. It was all blamed on the milk and certainly it was partly due to the milk. And eventually we got things cleaned up, you know, the tar replaced the horse and they put sewers in and they cleaned up the water. And we got refrigeration and we set up a system of bringing clean milk from the countryside into the cities. And the death rate went down. But then pasteurization came along as a supposed solution to this and the problem had already been solved. But the people could see, monopolists could see a way of monopolizing and controlling the sale of milk by pasteurizing because it forced the farmers to sell their milk to

5:49the dairy company by law and they could no longer set their price and the dairy companies were the ones making the profit on the milk. I'm very glad that you are in line with Western price because Western price has done incredible work over the years. Well, so Western price, he died in 1948, well, I mean the whole foundation. Oh, in the foundation, we set up the foundation in 2000 to carry on his legacy because really he's the one who has shown us what kind of diet supports true health and people. And he was a dentist, wasn't he? Pardon me? He was a dentist, wasn't he? He was a dentist and for 10 years, he went to different parts of the globe looking for truly isolated, what he called primitive people. And he found 14 groups that had superb health, no cavities, broad faces, naturally straight

6:51teeth, robust physiques, ease of childbirth in the women, and absence of chronic disease. So these people don't exist anymore, certainly not true of our society. But then the question was, well, what were these people eating? And the diets were different everywhere, some of them did have milk. Of course, it was raw milk. But the Eskimos and the South Sea Islanders, they didn't have milk, but they were equally healthy. The cultures that didn't have milk made a point of eating bones. They crushed up the bones of small animals or fish or birds and added the crushed bones to their food to get calcium. The common denominator in all of these diets was that they were very high in minerals and very high in what we call the fat soluble vitamins, AD&K.

7:52And where do we get those vitamins? And all the foods were being told not to eat the eggs and the yolks of the eggs, the butter, organ meats. Blood was a very good source of these nutrients, and I see a little grimace there. But you know, blood sausage is a fixture in European diets, there it was. So it's much easier. I think I'll be okay with the steak and saturated fat. Well, the thing is, the thing is, the steak is fine and if you always want to eat meat with the fat, but you're not going to get your fat soluble vitamins from the steak. You need to eat liver once a week, just like our ancestors did, to get the vitamin A. Yeah, I mean, what you're touching on there is sort of ketogenic low carbohydrate, almost carnivore type diet. Well, not the way it's practiced today, and they don't understand the importance of the organ

8:54meats and the fats. And you do need carbs. There were very few diets that didn't have carbs. The ones that didn't have carbs, 80% of calories were from fat. It's a little bit hard to do, but we need carbs for thyroid function. So it's low carb, but it's not no carb. What's the name of that? Is it a Swedish explorer about a hundred years ago who went and looked at the estimates? Yeah, that's him, incredible results. Yeah, but he's stressed how important the fat was, and he said that when traditional cultures killed, like killed a buffalo, okay? The first thing they did was eat the brain, the liver, the marrow, which is 90% fat, and the tongue. Then they kept some of the lean meat, but most of it that was just thrown away to the dogs.

10:00And they kept all of that. So on an old buffalo, you'd have 50 pounds of fat. And then the meat was smoked or dried, preserved in some way, and they always ate the meat with the fat. So just for clarity, raw and unpasteurized milk are the same thing. That's right. But unpasteurized comes from Louis Pasteur, who hated germs. Yes, all right. Well, he was quite a manipulator, actually. A fraud is what you're wanting to say. Well, I don't say fraud, but he was very political, and he was determined to get his view out there. And there's quite a bit of evidence that he cheated on some of his studies. He was out to sell vaccines. He saw a lot of money in it.

11:01His counterpart at the time, I think, was Antoine Bychamp, who's worked hard and find extremely persuasive. Who said that we have these microzymas, the tiny, tiny, those packs, and there's sort of potential life forms. And then depending on these circumstances, they will turn into different types of bacteria. Now, you've said that the CDC and the FDA consider raw milk the enemy. But to what end? I mean, how did they gain from demonizing it? The pockets of the dairy industry. The dairy industry is huge, it's very powerful. The executives earn salaries in the millions, while the farmers are going out of business. And in the last 20 years, they have not raised the prices that they're paying the farmer. So the farmer's getting the same price for his milk that he got in World War II.

12:01And he can't make... What? World War II. He's getting $1.50 a gallon. I've heard prices as low as 65 cents a gallon for the farmers. And they can't survive. And the farms are going out of business. I think it's the rate of 16 per week. And it's just decimated the country life, the rural life in America. So what these farmers learn or realize is they can actually make a decent living selling raw milk. And many have transitioned to raw milk. So here in South Africa, it's still illegal to sell raw milk. Everything has to be pasteurized. But you can get around it by going to say a farmer and you say, look, it's for animals. And then they'll sell it to you or we can give it to you. Yeah. So I have a farm here in Maryland and we sell milk for dogs and cats. And court on court. There are a lot of dogs and cats around here because it's our best seller.

13:04Mill people are lined up for it. And we have a number of states like that in New Jersey. I think Florida, North Carolina, so there's a few states where that loophole is definitely being used. Now, I've been told my whole life that raw milk is bad for you. Well, you've been told it's dangerous and it'll kill you. So we have a gal who looked very, very carefully at all those statistics. And since 2000, with probably 10 to 20 million people drinking raw milk, there may have been two deaths. One of these deaths, I don't think, existed at all. And the other deaths, I think, was due to something else, but they blame it on raw milk. So they say there's been two deaths, but there's been five or six deaths from pasteurized milk. So it's not like in pasteurized milk is completely safe either. But what is the argument against rural milk?

14:06What is the actual argument? Well, that it's dangerous that it'll kill you that it's not like, why? Why? What's in it? The bacteria in it, and the bacteria are dangerous and they'll kill you. The thing is, well, we produce raw milk that has no bacteria in it. It's very possible to do it in a clean way. But even if it does have bacteria, and they're not necessarily pathogenic bacteria, and we know now that you need good bacteria in the gut, and the bacteria in raw milk help populate the gut with the good bacteria. So it's all based on an outdated paradigm that bacteria are bad, and we now know that you can't live without bacteria. But the bureaucrats are stuck in their old beliefs, I guess. But is they actually evidence that the bacteria in raw milk is toxic? No. I mean, bacteria can turn toxic.

15:08You know, let's just say the milk is extracted in very, very unsanitary conditions, and the milk could turn the bacteria could turn toxic, and that's why you need to know what you're doing when you're milking cows. You know, not everyone is qualified to be a dairy farmer, not everybody has that kind of personality. It's very, very meticulous. But we have plenty of unregulated dairies in this country that are producing perfectly good milk, and nobody's getting sick, and nobody's certainly nobody's dying. Okay. But the counter argument might be then okay, but then do people get sick from pasteurized milk? Yes. And they do. In fact, we had a case, it was in 2007, there were three deaths from milk that had been completely perfectly pasteurized, and there were three deaths, and a lot of people sick.

16:10And you know, the other thing, Jeremy, which they never tell you, the largest outbreak of foodborne illness in history took place in 1984, 1985, and it was from a dairy that was pasteurizing the milk. It was from pasteurizing. Really? Yeah. What happened? And it was hundreds of thousands of people got sick. I don't know if there were any deaths, but all they just carried on, maybe looked at some of the sanitary procedures or something, but the pasteurization did not protect the public. The process of pasteurizing milk, though, does it also reduce the nutritional value? Yes. And this is what we've been saying. And we know that all the enzymes are killed when you pasteurize milk. And every vitamin and mineral in milk, and of course, it's a very nutrient-dance food, has a enzyme that attaches to it and ensures complete assimilation, because milk is designed

17:16for a baby that does not have a digestive system that's fully online yet. So those enzymes have to be there. And that's what makes milk so good for people with compromised digestion. People who have a lot of health problems, low energy, because all the nutrients are absorbed. Now you've got two things going on here. You've got pasteurization, the old type of pasteurization, which was a slow heating to 160 degrees. And that's bad, but it's not nearly as bad as what they do today, which is ultra high temperature or high temperature pasteurization. That is a rapid heating, past superheated stainless steel plates. It takes a milk to 280 degrees Fahrenheit. That is so hot that not only is it destroyed the enzymes, it's destroyed all the proteins in the milk. And that's where you get allergies, you get anaphylactic shock, there are 20 to 30 deaths

18:19per year from anaphylactic shock to milk. And that's because these proteins are foreign proteins for the body, and you know, the body really doesn't have a very good way of dealing with them. So if I'm correct, the process of pasteurization is basically just heating up the milk and then cooling it down quickly. Well, it's either heating it up slowly or heating up very rapidly and then cooling down. But it's the heating, it's not the cooling, it's the problem. Which kills everything. Yeah, which really kills everything. And that's why milk drinking is associated with all these problems, allergies, asthma, respiratory disease, and digestive disorders. And of course, the parents take the children off of milk as they might kids allergic to milk. Well, they are, they're allergic to pasteurized milk.

19:19But very often, they find that the children can tolerate raw milk beautifully and thrive on it. Well, our kid is 17 months old and he's had raw milk and he was fine. And he also had breast milk, right? Yes, he's never actually, he's never, well, he's never had formula, yeah, only breast milk. And he's thriving, right? He's never been sick. Yeah, I have five grandchildren all brought up in raw milk and they've never been sick. Oh, and unvaccinated, I'm my dad. Yeah, same with me. Unvaccinated raw milk, cod liver oil, those are the three. That's a triumph for it, for making sure that you have healthy kids. And it's, you know, they're much healthier than I was. They don't have allergies, they don't have asthma. They're just perfectly normal, healthy children. And that is the, the, the, the right of a child is to be healthy like that.

20:20You just have to know how to do it. And then to make matters worse, not only is the milk pasteurized, but then they market hard low fat or even skin milk. Yeah. I mean, pasteurized low fat milk is the poison, absolute poison because it will not only not give you the vitamin A you need, but it will deplete you. Vitamin A you're getting from other foods. How will it do that? Well, when you need, when you eat protein, the body releases vitamin A from the liver because you need vitamin A to process the protein to assimilate the protein. So I'm very concerned about these high protein diets that don't have enough fat and then that don't have cod liver oil, whether or not eating liver, they're not getting vitamin A, not eating butter, and that's that's the danger I think of these carnivore diets. They really don't understand how traditional cultures ate meat.

21:23They threw most of the meat away in an animal and ate the fat in the organ meats. And I know it's, it's hard for us because we don't have the taste for that. It's actually easier in Europe to do this because there's a lot of liver sandwiches, liver pate, blood sausage, all these nutrient-dense foods. If you'll eat them, you know, but we don't have those things in the States. So you have to try harder. Yeah, that gentleman who lived with the Eskimos that we spoke about, he only ate, I think seal meat and and basically fish and then some vegetables once here and there because of, you know, the, the conditions were not conducive to plants and he was perfectly healthy but he had a very, the berries in the summer, a big treat. But when you say seal, the seal, of course, is a very fatty animal and they ate the fat, seal fat.

22:23And it was also the highest food in vitamin A that Dr. Price ever tested. So it's very rich in vitamin A. The problem is that people don't want to eat a cute animal. They don't want to eat what? A cute animal. A cute animal. Yeah, I mean, a seal, a seal is cute. I don't know, I wouldn't want to eat a cat or a dog but I think I can eat a seal. You said that most of the nutrients get lost in the pasteurization process but I mean, not only do they get lost. They get completely destroyed. Well, the enzymes get destroyed and some of the nutrients are destroyed. B2, riboflavin is destroyed, vitamin C is completely destroyed. Now, when you think of it, someone like that, what? B12 also. B12, B6, those some really key nutrients are completely destroyed, others are diminished.

23:25But let's just think of somebody driving camels across the desert. The vitamin C in the milk is what's going to keep him from getting scurvy. Yeah, not eating oranges. Yeah, I mean, you're getting all the vitamins that were in the grass or in the foliage that they ate. We can't digest leaves, those kind of leaves, we can't digest grass. But the animals have three or four stomachs and they do it for us and they give us this beautiful, delicious concoction of grass in the milk with fat so that you are digesting this protein. Sorry. But could it be horseshoed back to the original comment that, well, that's because we shouldn't be drinking milk from an animal? Well, if you want to, you know, I would say suit yourself, but I wouldn't, I don't think

24:28there's any religion that tells you not to eat drinking milk from an animal. Why don't we drink human milk? Well, some people do. You know, John D. Rockefeller drank human milk, he got it donated or he bought it and he drank raw human milk. He thought that was part of the reason he lived so long. It's not a thought that I like, but it is nonetheless a valid question. They drink human milk though and sometimes they drink human milk up to the age of five. So I mean, there's certainly nothing. And it's highly nutritious. Oh, my goodness, yeah, if the mother's eating well, yeah. I mean, how do you, how do you push back when you have a system, a state imposed system that is against raw milk? We have just done it persistently, quietly, we've never given up.

25:29We've created a very strong demand. What's interesting to me in the early days of this, the state regulators were always coming after these little farms and trying to shut them down or taking their inventory and throwing it away. It was terribly wasteful and they stopped doing it now because we embarrassed them. We got in the news, we got on the internet, we came to the trials and testified and they just were very embarrassed by this and it's just stopped. All of this harassment has stopped. Raw powdered milk for babies. I don't know, you can't do powdered milk raw, I don't think. Or formula, shall we say? So there's several problems with formula, but one is that the milk is highly processed

26:36powdered and that destroys the proteins also. There's very few formulas that have whole milk, they put skin milk in the formula and now if you're feeding formula to animals, the third ingredient, it's listed on the label, is animal fat. As they know that these animals can't survive without animal fat, but human babies don't get any animal fat in their formula, they skin milk and vegetable oils. And that's just because the skin milk is cheaper. If you do drink skin more low fat milk, I'm guessing you need to counter that then with a lot more saturated fat in your diet. Yeah, so eat a lot of butter, which begs the question, why are you taking the butter out of the milk? Yes. But here's the thing, the industry has figured out how to maximize their profit on the

27:47butter fat and they don't make a lot of profit if they just sell butter or if they sell whole milk. If they take the butter fat out and put it in ice cream, they make five times as much on the butter fat. So what they want you to do is be on this horrible low fat diet all day long and by 8 o'clock in the evening you're just craving fat and you go to the freezer and get the half gallon of ice cream and you eat the whole thing. That's what they want you to do because that's where they make the money is an ice cream. Do you think those authorities and government know the truth or they've just been paid off? Well, I think mountains in the dairy industry know the truth. It's all about maximizing profit off of this product, milk. The other thing, so the things that make the most profit are ice cream, cheese and way powder. And way powder is what they do with the way for making cheese and that's extremely profitable.

28:56Bodybuilders love it. They shouldn't be drinking it, it's very toxic to the kidneys. But it's pushed on the bodybuilders. People have schemes, sales schemes and pushed on these people. So you might be at an advantage now with Bobby Kennedy in his position. Bobby drinks raw milk. In fact, he's supplied him with raw milk a few times. Yeah, and yeah. So do you think he's going to attack this or is the dairy industry too strong? This is all, first of all, regulated by the health departments or the agricultural departments in the individual states. It's not regulated by the federal government. So all he can do is encourage it, but there's nothing legal that he can do to kind of free

29:57up raw milk. And actually, Jeremy, we don't need to. We really accomplished what we set out to accomplish. Just for example, in Maryland here where I am, I got the first pet milk permit and now it's about four or five dozen in the whole thing. It's raw milk everywhere now in Maryland. But did you say, do you say pet milk? Yeah. Dogs and cats. OK, so it's still not quite there yet. It's, I mean, you still have to put it under the guise of animals. Well, we haven't changed the milk. It's a loophole. There's no question it's a loophole that we've taken advantage of. But that's because we could not get the cooperation of the Department of Health. They, you know, stymied us every step of the way. So we tried something else. This pasteurization only occur with cow's milk.

31:01What about goat's milk? Well, they can pasteurize any kind of milk. There's not a lot of goat milk consumed. I've never seen goat milk in the stores. I guess there's a little bit, but yeah, they make goat cheats with the goat milk. I'm not a fan though. I find the taste just a bit too sharp. Yeah, it's a gamey, good gamey, goody. Yeah, the battle against pasteurization, I mean, how old is this maybe like a century? So for them. Yeah, the first mandatory pasteurization was in 1913 in New York City. And there were people there who were in favor of raw milk. They thought it was healthier. They thought it was just a safe, but the argument they used was, well, we don't have the money to inspect all these little farms. If we had just the pasteurizing plants, we could just inspect there.

32:02And that was the reason given for making pasteurization mandatory. And I had my own inspector. When we first started out, she said, Sally, we just can't afford to regulate and inspect all these little dairies. And that's why we don't want to do this. So it's just the, I don't want to say the laziness of the bureaucrats, but it's all, it comes back down to money and how can they afford to inspect all these small dairies that you would have if you were doing raw milk? But for the entirety of human existence, they've been drinking raw milk. That's right. We're making cheese. We're fermenting it in some way. Is it safe to freeze raw milk? Yes. People who can't get out to a dairy very often, we advise them to buy what they need and freeze it.

33:03And the enzymes are maintained. What we don't recommend is freeze drying because even though there's no heat involved, there is a study that showed that the proteins are just as warped and distorted with the freeze drying as with heat treatment. How do you verify the source of the safety of your raw milk? Do you just have to kind of do a lot of homework? Yeah. So the raw milk should be coming from a farmer who's milking his own cows. Okay. And there are now very accurate tests you can do on the farm. We test every day. We test our milk every day. And we test for what's called coliform, which is the benign bacteria. But if you have a high coliform count, you might have some pathogens. Well, our counts are 0, 1, 2. If it gets any higher, I know that something hasn't been cleaned and we fix it.

34:07But to me, this is a game changer, this coliform test, because you can keep track of what's going on with your milk and that. But I mean, okay, so let's just talk about the layman. If you are just visiting a farm and you eyeballing, what are some of the things you should look out for? Well, you should look for cleanliness. You should look for, do they test? Do they clean out their parlor floor every day? Not a lot of farmers do. Yeah. So they should taste how long it lasts in the refrigerator. It should last two weeks. I heard the other way around that if it lasts too long, that's not a good sign. Well, because then it's got additives, potentially. Well, it should last without additives, it should last because it's really clean. Right, right, right.

35:08Okay. Right, I got you. So the way in which the cows themselves eat also, does that make a difference? Yeah. Yes. So we call this a campaign for real milk. And by real, we mean full fat, non-pasturized and pasture-fed, grass-fed. This grass is the natural food for a cow. She's uniquely designed to digest grass, grass and clover. So our cows are out on pasture all the time. Now, at this time of year, there's no pasture, but we give them hay. When they come in, we give them a little bit of grain and we give them some alpha-alpha pellets. And the actual milking itself is or machines fine? Yeah. Yes, we use machines. But as long as they're clean, oh, yes, we have a way of cleaning them, they get cleaned every day. And the cows not only grass-fed, but they should be fairly free of antibiotics and other

36:16injections. Oh, absolutely. And there's no need for them. We've never used antibiotics. We use homeopathic herbs and things like that. And the cow is producing very thick milk. We take her off the line and we let the calves drink from her. So I think what I'm, yeah, so the big chance on a paint show is it's not just the milk that's in the bottle, but it's the, it's the, it's the lead-up to that bottle. Well, we milk into cans. I mean, there's nothing that touches the milk, but there's no exposure to air between the teeth and the can, because that's, this goes right in. And then we put the can in a kind of cradle. And we, first of all, we filter the milk, pour it through a filter, and then we put the can in a kind of cradle and bottle that way, and then it's immediately chilled.

37:18So the exposure to air is possibly 10 seconds, and then the top goes on and then it's chilled. And what about heating milk? That way? On the heating milk, on the stove or in the microwave or whatever. Well, you shouldn't use a microwave. He's not a chimney. Trying to trap me here. He shouldn't use microwaves, because it destroys the food. If you want to heat it, like set it in a container, see, set in simmering water and heat it up. You can go to 110 degrees, but no higher. And so if you're, you want raw yogurt, you don't go past 110. Yeah, I'm asking that actually, I mean, I was being a bit facetious, but with our, with our little boy, we saw warm up milk, but we warming up in water. Yes, right, right.

38:20And it's still you can touch it. Yes, I mean, it's not hot. It's not hot, it's just warm. So if you think of Fahrenheit, the Fahrenheit system, zero is an extremely cold day and a hundred is a very hot day. Right. Can you drink more raw milk than you can pasteurize milk? Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, you can drink raw milk exclusively. And in fact, it's called the raw milk diet or the milk cure. And that was done in hospitals back in the early part of the 1900s. The male clinic, which is very famous hospital today, started off by administering the milk cure. And it was very successful, the diet was just about four quarts of raw milk, sip slowly throughout the day, like a half a cup every, every half hour or something. And it was very successful for detoxification and for nourishing, very successful with

39:25kidney problems to help people lose weight, it treated cancer with the raw milk cure. So yes, you can drink an exclusive milk diet. I think another benefit of pointing out the benefits of raw milk and knowing that the shops don't want to stock it is that it kind of encourages you to support local, you know, go and find a farmer. Yes, yes, yes, it's really. I mean, there's a subliminal positive net benefit there because the farmer will be much happier with you coming direct to him. Yes, yes, but if you can't, you know, like let's just say California, my daughter lives in California, you can go to a shop, a food store and buy raw milk in California. They don't all really want to do it. And there are about 13 or 14 states in America where you can buy raw milk in the store.

40:27So it's all over the map about what's possible. Then for ours, the pet milk, they have to either come to our on farm store or we can sell it at farmer's market. But there's a weird kind of subliminal propaganda going on here because if they say no, no, it's fine. You can buy raw milk for your animals. Yeah. What are they saying? What are they actually saying? They're saying we don't care. They've been healthy for animals. Yes. Well, the implication is that the animals have a stronger immune system or something. Yeah. That's the implication. It's just ridiculous if you think about it for more than 10 seconds. Oh, yeah. The whole thing is ridiculous. But it's been the, well, the subject of intense propaganda for so long that most people just accept this that raw milk is dangerous without, you know, without really thinking about it. Okay.

41:27So the moral of the story, Sally, is what? Don't believe the government, especially when it comes to food. It's not just raw milk, but, you know, they've been on this relentless campaign against butter, against animal fats, against lard, against talo, for over 100 years. This is basically destroying our children, destroying everybody, really, because you absolutely need these animal fats, and especially for growing children, you need them for normal growth. I mean, butter is the fat in all mammalian milk for the growth and development of mammals, and we're mammals. And the idea that children shouldn't have butter and animal fat is very destructive. It's why we're seeing such high rates of infertility. It's why we're seeing children grow up and be confused about what sex they are, because they haven't been able to make the proper hormones, because they haven't gotten the nutrients

42:30that you get in animal fats. It's been a disaster. It's been a complete disaster. And thank goodness there are people trying to turn this around. You know, in the last few months, butter consumption has really gone up in America, because of Bobby and the work of many others, just trying to get it into people's heads. I know something I've found that cooking in butter and pig fat is so much tastier. Yeah. Yeah. So, I don't use, we don't use any seed oils at all. Yeah, no, and it needed to be, we just use olive oil, and that's a fruit oil. So coconut oil, palm oil and olive oil, those are fruit oils, and they're much more stable than seed oils. And the seed oils were not in the human diet before 1890, when they developed the stainless steel roller press.

43:30So they're completely new to the diet, and they create a real imbalance of the types of fats on the cellular level, and they don't provide the nutrients that the body is expecting to get from the animal fat. I'll give you an example, a little boy loves sausage, so we'll easily give him a sausage in the morning that's all chopped up, scrambled eggs, and even, look, we can't really buy raw milk. It's very difficult to find here, but he does get full fat cow's milk, and he is so healthy. Yeah, I mean, I have a grandson who's 14 months raised on raw milk, and it's just amazing. Meeting all his milestones, never been sick, perfectly normal in every way. What greater gifts can you give your children, and to give you that your child that gives

44:33you need to think things through, and do your own research on this subject, you go to realmilk.com, our website, and we have lots of articles there, but you have to learn not to believe everything you hear. I was changed, in terms of my dietary trajectory, oh, I don't know, in the early 2000s by a gentleman with a name of Gary Tubbs, do you know of him? Oh, Gary, yeah. You know, we had him to give a little talk, and we all went to a restaurant afterwards. And nobody ate any potatoes. And again, Gary, listen, me, me, this is a very healthy food, but I just think you can overdo it, and if you don't get enough fat with the meat, you're going to get in trouble. And also, I tell you, you have a little boy, you try raising your boy on an all-meat diet.

45:37They're going to go out and cheat. They need some carbs. You need to make dessert for them every now and then, you know, sweet things need to come from the parents. Can anybody, honestly, in their heart of hearts tell me that there is anything better than bacon and eggs in the morning? Exactly, exactly. What a wonderful breakfast. And bacon is a healthy food. It's full of B vitamins. And the fat in bacon is the most, pick fat is the most similar to human fat, any type of fat. And it's, but it's just so delicious if you do it in butter or a lot. And remember how they, how they demonized it in the 80s? Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, because they wanted to sell vegetable oils. But you really weren't eating low fat, not if you were eating ice cream.

46:39And you were putting spreads on your toast. But ice cream is full of sugar. Well, of course, horrible. That's not the right way to get your animal fats. You want to get your animal fats, you know, and me to put on vegetables, maybe put on potatoes, bacon with your scrambled eggs, then you won't crave sugar. But generally keep those carbohydrates low. Yeah, 20% of calories, I think it'd be a maximum. Because I mean, also if you are fully connoble, nobody will ever invite you around to the house because you won't eat anything. Yeah, I know. I know. It's very boring diet. Yeah. It's not the way you're going to eat. We're really meant to enjoy our food and and that's straight too far between extremes. Yeah. You know, you know, when Jesus cured people, he said go and send no more.

47:44And that word sin doesn't mean that you've done something horrible. The word is harmatria, which means it's an archery term, which means to miss the mark, to not be right in the center. And I think people are missing the mark. They're either way to carnivore or plant-based or junk food. None of that is where we need to be. We need to be in the center. Center ourselves on good wholesome food with plenty of fat, home cooked and delicious. Did you ever read the China study? I've written quite a bit about the China study. You know, you know, I'm probably one of the few people in the world who's actually looked at the printed version of the China study because it was printed on a very large format, like 12 by 18. You can't copy it in the copy. And it's in libraries. This is the data that they collected.

48:46And it's never been posted online. What? It's never, the data is not posted online. So you can't work with it. And first of all, it was a terrible study with lots of variables. It was done in very poor districts. It wasn't really the way most Chinese eat. But Marianne and I actually analyzed this data. And I wrote an article about it called the China study, or Chinese diet. They really didn't find much. This is to give you an example, the highest egg consumption was in Singapore. And that was also the place with the highest rate of tuberculosis. So old, what's his name, author says, well, the egg consumption was associated with tuberculosis. But it's meaningless association. They eat more eggs in Singapore because they're wealthier and they have more Western influence.

49:49And they have higher rates of TB because it's a very polluted industrial city. But there's no correlation between eating eggs and getting TB. I'm trying to think Navi's name, the author. Yeah, yeah. Calling Campbell. Calling Campbell. Yeah, there we go. Yeah. But what I don't understand, I debated him. Oh, really? Yeah. You know, on a podcast. But I don't understand, though, is, I mean, I've been to China and also Hong Kong. And they eat a lot of rice. They eat a lot of rice, but Hong Kong is the highest meat eaters in the world. The highest meat diet in the world is in Hong Kong. They cook and duck fat and pork fat. They say he used to. They're pushing the vegetable oils now. It's a diet that had lots of meat in it. But also, I mean, I guess you could argue their rice is less processed than Western

50:49rice. No, they put. Not really. Not really. They put talking powder. Talk. Talk. Okay. And my colleague, Marianne, I thought this was why there was such high rates of stomach cancer in China. India also, I believe. Lots of rice. Yeah. And stomach cancer. I think also the highest rates of diabetes, I believe. Now, in India, I mean, they don't do this today. But in the old days, the rice, they mixed the rice with the lentils. And they fermented it, soaked it in water, at least overnight. And then they ground it up and they made their Italy or doses and pancakes with this combination of rice and lentils, but it was fermented. So what is causing the obesity crisis? Just too much sugar. And too many carbs and low thyroid function.

51:49Thyroid needs vitamin A and people aren't getting enough vitamin A. The addictive substances that they're putting in the foods, MSG, MSG destroys the hypothalamus. And the hypothalamus is the gland that submits the emits, apatite suppressing hormones. There was a very interesting study they did in China on MSG and this was rural Chinese families. They weren't eating junk food. And some families put a lot of MSG in their food and others didn't even buy MSG in little bottles in China. And the families that used a lot of MSG were definitely heavier. It was a very strong correlation. Would you say fat is more important than protein? Yeah, absolutely. I absolutely would.

52:49So the way we look at it, the diet is no more than 20% of calories as protein. And even less when you get older, but for growing children, yes, and athletes, but no more than 20% carbs. About 20% to maybe 40% if you're an athlete or growing child and then the rest fat. So this is a diet that's going to be 60% to 70% calories as fat. Now this is calories. This is not by weight because that's much more caloric. I drink ground coffee with cream. What about cream, by the way? We haven't spoken about that. Cream is a wonderful food. We make cream on our farm and real cream is hard to get, but yeah, it's wonderful. It's very rich. Yeah, very rich. It'll offset the bad effects of the coffee. Oh, you're not a coffee fan.

53:51No. I do enjoy my ground coffee early in the morning when the sun's coming up though. Well, I'm sure you do. But really your body should be able to wake up and get going without coffee. Just a glass of glass of raw milk. I was a coffee drinker. Yeah, I drink a glass of raw milk in the morning or a cup, a mug of broth, chicken broth. But I was a very sick woman in about my mid about my 30s and I went to this holistic doctor and he had me do a food, food blog of everything I ate and he looked at it and he said, you know, you will never be well if you don't stop drinking coffee. And so that was a challenge for me. And it was the hardest thing I ever did in my life. It took me about a month of headaches. But once I got over that, my health just blossomed, all my rashes went away, my fatigue went

54:54away, my sometimes lack of emotional balance, that just settled right down. It was the best thing I ever did. But I mean, what is it then about the coffee? Is it the caffeine because in what about decaf? Oh, you could probably do decaf, it was a little bit of caffeine in decaf. But to see what the caffeine does is it's like a hammer to your adrenal glands. Your adrenal glands start pouring out adrenaline and cortisol. And that keeps you in a state of fight or flight. And we were not designed to be in fight or flight all the time. We need the rest of digest hormones and eventually your adrenal glands get tired, call the adrenal fatigue. And it gets harder and harder, first of all, to get into fight and flight or to come back down to rest and digest. And I read something very interesting recently. If your body can't produce enough cortisol, if the adrenal glands are worn out, you

55:58know what it does? It makes cortisol out of testosterone. So lower, yes, it lowers you. Oh, no, that's not good. Yeah. Yeah. I also find that, and it's difficult to obviously pinpoint this, but I'm fairly convinced that coffee gives me heartburn. And yes, it's possible. Yeah. Now the heartburn is from not having enough stomach acid. So I don't know what the caffeine is doing, but yeah. So that's interesting. Eat more salt. And by the way, high meat diet, you do need more salt. So your heartburn is because you don't have enough stomach acid and the stomach acid is what tells that valve to close. So the stomach acid doesn't come up here as often. But why do doctors say you've got too much stomach acid?

56:59Yeah, they're wrong. They just don't understand it. It's not enough stomach acid. But then how does an ant acid work? Well, lower your stomach acid, most people still get heartburn because it doesn't take them all the time. Those drugs have terrible side effects. For one thing, they have a lot of aluminum in them. Yeah. Well, I took for about 15 years until I stopped in 2020, I think, proton pump inhibitors. Oh, yeah. They're terrible drugs. A meprosol, I think, was the main one. Yeah. So what you can do, eat more salt because you make hydrochloric acid out of the chlorine and salt. But you can also take a baitine hydrochloric acid supplement. I've got a couple of my children on those. I have three out of four of my children, you know, driven and ambitious, and I have one child who's very relaxed today.

58:02He doesn't need any of those things. Hydrochloric acid. I've seen those pills. You can take them. I don't like the idea of taking a pull, though. Well, I mean, it's better than protein pump inhibitors. Yeah, for sure. But I mean, just normal salt, putting more salt on your food. Yes, that's where I'd start. And then if that doesn't work, and I would take a hydrochloric acid, eat better. That's what I always say. Eat better. It's the healthiest fat on the planet. It's got so many good things in it. You know, one of the things in butter is something called a racodonic acid. And what do we do with a racodonic acid? We do a lot of things, but one of the things we do with it is we make our own endogenous cannabinoids. Our bodies are designed to have marijuana being produced all the time. We have receptors for this, and this makes us relaxed, but motivated. That's what you want. You want to be motivated, but not hyper. You want to be relaxed and motivated. And that's what we get from the racodonic acid in animal fats, especially butter.

59:06Butter is also a unique source of something called butyric acid, which is very important for colon health and for digestion. If it's grass-fed butter, it will have conjugated little aic acid in it, which is the strongest anti-cancer substance that's ever been tested. It really protects you against cancer. So there's just many wonderful things in butter that we can't get elsewhere. And to me, if you don't do anything else, eat butter. Butter is better. Butter is better. Before any accusations come your way, you're not receiving any kind of funding from the meat industry. And the Western A-Prize Foundation doesn't receive that kind of funding, and I don't get any salary for running the Western A-Prize Foundation. I would vector your listeners to our website, westenaprize.org, and hopefully they'll become members and receive our quarterly journal, which is very popular, become a part

1:00:07of our family. We also have realmilk.com for finding raw milk. I'm not sure there's any listings for South Africa, I'm afraid. But I know that there are raw milk farms in Africa, maybe not in South Africa. Yes. No, no, we've got them, we've got them. We've got them. You just have to fight for the animal label, that's how it works. Yeah, well, then that's fine. And my website is nourishingtraditions.com. I haven't posted it in a long time because I'm working on a book, but there's a lot of interesting stuff there. I will also say that the Western A-Prize Website changed my views on polio back in the day. Interesting. Interesting. Yes, polio was caused by lead arsenate and dvt and uses pesticides, they're both nerve toxins. Yeah, there was no virus. And the vaccine didn't change anything.

1:01:07What changed it was, they were banned, so they started selling these pesticides as in places like India, where they kept having polio, you know. And it's that article that I found on the Western Prize Website that led me to a book called The Moth in the Iron Lung. Yes, yes. For us, we're ready. And he's just written a book on raw milk, by the way. Ah, okay. I must contact him. Yeah. Yeah, he'd be a good one to interview. Yeah, I have spoken to him before. He's very quiet, though. Yes, he's, he's a, he's a, he's like a, he's a hermit, huh? Okay, Sally, Morrell, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for joining me in the trenches. You're having me, Jeremy.