Transition to Grandparenthood with Confidence

0:00Hi, I'm Sarah Trott and welcome to the fourth trimester podcast. I'm a new mama and this podcast is all about postpartum care for the first few months following birth. The time period also known as the fourth trimester. My postpartum doula Esther Gallagher is my co-host. She's a mother, grandmother, perinatal educator, birth and postpartum care provider. Fourth trimester care, our topic, is about the practical, emotional and social support parents and baby require. And importantly, it helps set the tone for the continuing journey of parenting. Hi there, this is Sarah Trott and welcome back to the fourth trimester podcast. I'm here with my co-host Esther Gallagher. Hi Esther. Hi. And our special guest today, Dr. Shoshana Bennett, who's been with us before as a returning guest. We're so happy to have you here. Welcome Dr. Shosh. Thank you.

1:00So happy to be here. Our topic today is grandparenting. It's a broad topic, but we'll be covering things such as the transition into that role because it's not just parents who have new roles when they become parents for the first time. They're other family members who are brought in and go through change and their identity. We'll be talking about boundaries, communication, practical things, grandparents and other people can do to help support families from a multi-generational standpoint, which is a topic that we're always happy to talk about. And maybe we don't talk about enough. So we will just dive right in and Esther, I would like to invite you first to give any little intro or preamble for the discussion. Oh gosh. Well, I mean, I am a grandmother. And that's an interesting big part of my life. And I'm really, really thrilled that we're approaching the subject with Dr. Shosh today.

2:03That's great. So Shoshana, maybe you can just launch in and tell us a little bit about what brings you to this. Yeah. Sure. The whole grandparent topic. Absolutely. You know, the mental health aspect is also something I want to focus on with grandparents. You brought up some wonderful topics and I'd love to hit them all if we have time. But this whole topic arose for me when my daughter became pregnant and a very surprising thing happened. It was, yeah, nothing I ever would have expected. My postpartum feelings and anxiety started to shoot back up again who talks about this. Nobody that I've ever, so it was fascinating. Some of the obsessive compulsive disorder, you know, the postpartum OCD stuff. I wasn't the one pregnant. This was from afar. All she did was tell me she was pregnant and boom, it's like I was launched back into

3:09the whole anxiety thing. So that's why that's really what was foremost in my mind when I, you know, when we started to discuss this and I sent you that article I wrote, scared to be a grandma. And I'd like to give your audience if I may just a little bit of history with the pioneering of postpartum depression and what's happening now with the grandparenthood stuff. It really does mirror it very well. So just very briefly, I will do this with your permission. Yes, I would love that. And also let's mention, because if anyone's listening to you talk for the first time and they haven't heard your prior episodes with us, like, you know, maybe it just a touch on your career and background too, so they understand because that is such an important part of the story. Okay. No, absolutely. I feel like I know your audience. So I just stood right off and started to watch and yes, I was not a doctor's shows a

4:13few decades ago. I was a special education teacher and I had a baby and lost myself. For me, pregnancy was great, but I experienced after the births of both of my children a very serious, very serious life-threatening belts of postpartum depression, anxiety, OCD, PTSD as well, based on certain other things. And there really wasn't any help for me, certainly none that I could find, only criticism, a lot of judgment. And this after I realized after about a year into the second hellish experience after my first was born, I started noticing different things. One thing on television that sounded, wow, it sounds like she's been going through the same kinds of things I have. I started jumping in and reading everything I could find that had been translated into English from all over the world and realized this is a thing.

5:15And it happens and it's always happened as far back as women have been having babies. It's happened. It's had various names and people have attributed various causes to it, but that's really what started this career. So at that time, I had to throw all of the emotional turmoil and the horribleness of the last few years into doing something good with it. And I started to pioneer along with three or four other people who we collected each other. There was no internet back then, but we found each other. We pioneered the field of maternal mental health in the United States. So that's how far back this passion has started. For me, it was directly coming from personal experience. I was not a therapist then. And it just developed. And I wrote a few books and started educating immediately hospitals, clinics, doctors, newborn care professionals, which I still do. And I love it. So teaching and being part of the two of you are so focused on educating, on getting

6:21some real information out there and making sure it's correct information as well. And also opening up topics that really haven't been discussed before. And I really commend you and thank you for a format like this that we can really discuss these things. So my passion today is just as strong as it was back then. So perinatal psychologists is technically my title. And I do work in all types of capacities individually and with groups. But again, educating and doing these kinds of programs, really, they're top on my list. So back then, in the 1990s, there again, no internet, no email, not much of anything computer wise. So I wrote an article on postpartum depression. And I sent it to a number of very, very well-established publications. And what I got back was basically, they were all saying the same thing in different ways.

7:21This doesn't suit our demographic. Interesting article, Shoshana, but it doesn't fit our audience. And I'm thinking, little do you know how, I mean, one in seven of your female readers, you're experiencing this, you've got to get, but you know, I wasn't going to convince the editors and publishers, it says, so, okay, I let it go. Now years later, those same publications came back to me and said, remember that article that you wrote? We might be interested in it now because it started to really come out into the public. And it was recognized. Not too long ago when my, when my daughter became pregnant, I wrote an article called Scared to be a grandma when all of these, the OCD, the flashes, the scary thoughts of, oh my goodness, what can happen to this child in utero? And what can happen now when it's an infant? And what can, all this stuff I started getting, not only some flashbacks, but just thinking

8:26about my daughter and is she eating right and all the what ifs? It was just fascinating because here, now I'm a, I'm a therapist. And this is, and actually OCD is a specialty within the specialty, many, many, I'd say a good 75% to 80% of my clientele have some degree of OCD manifesting. So here I'm watching in on two different levels. I'm experiencing this and going, this, this is icky and it's getting in the way of my sleep and all this stuff is coming up. But as therapists, I'm looking at it going, this is the most interesting phenomenon. I need to, I need to write about this. So I did. And I sent to, again, various publications, the scared to be a grandma article. I got back almost verbatim, what I heard in the early 1990s about postpartum depression. This doesn't fit our demographic. Thank you so much. It was an excellent article, but we can't use it. So again, little do they know and the more I work with grandparents, the more I see

9:30and my colleagues who are starting to work with grandparents are seeing the same thing. This is a real phenomenon. So thank you, thank you, thank you for giving, for giving this a voice so that just like with postpartum depression, women aren't thinking I'm going crazy, you know, and losing my mind and what the heck is this and just have a name and is anybody else feeling this. Grandparents. Yeah. Out there, please, no, this is a definite, this is a thing, this can happen. And certainly there's, there's help, absolutely, and my colleagues or I can certainly help you through it. But that's, that's how this, that's how all this happened and, and why we're, we're talking about it today. Nice. So Shana, I find it, my personal experience of listening to this story of, of your polite rejections from the public is fury.

10:31Oh, thank you. You know, I, you're very kind and measured in your storytelling and I'm right now just feeling daggers and irritation and, and gas lit on your behalf and mine and everyone else's. And it's just, it's just one more way that our culture continuously represses people, you know, and, and our realities. And so thank you for telling this story because it's, you know, it's not just, it's not just an unfortunate thing. I think we, to this day, we have to be vigilant when we get that kind of response, right? We have to sit, no, wait a minute here. This stuff's real. Yes. Yes. I'm not the only one. People are hungering for community and connection and all the things that would help

11:33humiliate this. And this is on you to do the right thing and publish and, and learn more and, you know, support. I mean, what are you there for? Otherwise. They're interested in yourself. We don't need you. Exactly. You know, in the same thing happen, I was asked to write a few different books. One of them was postpartum depression for dummies. I was asked to write for, for, for them, the, for dummies, folks, wily and sons, which I did. And occasionally as I pass a bookstore, there were still many bookstores then. Now, you know, there, much of it is online, but there are many, many bookstores back then. And I'd stop it occasionally and look for the book. And I would, if I typically I didn't see it. So I would go to the person in charge and ask for the book to see what they would say. And almost always what I heard was that, you know, nobody wants to see that. You know, they had the breastfeeding books out there.

12:35They had the excited to be a mommy book out that, you know what I mean, the all of the, that stuff, that acceptable stuff, yeah, they should, exactly, but I'm thinking, wow, you are doing such a disservice. You know, it needs to be right there with all your other, you know, perinatal information. They had copies, but they were way in the back. You know, somebody had to come in and ask for them. Well, and then it's like, it's like asking for birth control, you know, in a Catholic community. Like, you don't just go to the front desk and say, hey, I'm the, I'm the one, you know, who needs this thing because I'm having a terrible time. Right? Exactly. Right? This is, this is why you put it out front. This is why you don't hide it and, and therefore shame it, right? I'm going to be more ashamed by making it inaccessible. Well said, well said, mm hmm. Well, I'm curious how you navigated these upwellings with your daughter, yeah, because

13:39I, too, have a daughter who gave birth to my grandchild and, you know, I'm not unaware of what I went through, you know, after having her and all the things. And, and also was a little, I guess I'd use the word wary of, you know, as thrilled as I was, she was having a child and all the things really, oh my gosh, over the moon, weirdly over the moon, almost. I still had, you know, a little bit of, hmm, you know, what's this going to be? Like, and my daughter very much did, do you really wanted me not to impose, not to be too overwhelming, not to offer unsolicited advice, all the things? And she made me promise before she told me that she was pregnant as if I couldn't guess.

14:39You know, you, do you really have to cool your jets and you really have to be contained and, and all the things and, and I appreciate her for it. She's a psychologist. I mean, she knows better than me and most things. So, yeah, I'm curious how the two of you navigated this, this time and maybe are still navigating to this day. And we are. We are still navigating. What you're talking about, a lot of the really normal and very important common stuff that comes up with moms and their daughters who are, who are giving birth. So there was an extra layer of my super high anxiety and flashes of scary stuff. You know, that's on top of the regular stuff. But yeah, we can talk about it all. But to this day, I have to think carefully, not only what I'm saying, but how I'm saying it. Body language and all, you know, tone of voice and all. Because if I ask in, in the, are you sure that you, you know, if there's anything in

15:44my voice, she will turn off and say, Mom, how about we talk about this later? Click. I mean, not broodly, but it's basically, you know, she does, she won't engage, which is totally fine. So I'm, I have to be very, very careful now as far as being respectful as far as, for instance, when the child was born, how she wanted things done, I actually didn't have a whole lot of problem with that. And again, this isn't about my daughter. It's more about what happens in general to, to public often, up moms who give birth. I'll speak very, very generally, they can be very sensitive, right? They're all the hormones stuff going on and what. So just generally, it, it, when needs to be respectful and asked, don't just assume, for instance, that she wants the kid picked up out of the crib or the, she wants the kid fed in a certain way or whatever. It's important to, to ask, so that stuff I'm pretty good at.

16:45I don't know if you were, you know, but, yes, even though I've done it twice, I, I would ask her how would you like things and still do that. But what I need to be careful of specifically is my mind racing and I, I do need to pull myself back going, the what if scenarios, that's OCD, I know what that is, you know, what is actual caution that my daughter might need to learn from her mother and what is over the line, just anxious stuff that I need to throw out and not place upon her, does that all make sense? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Um, and it's, I think it's interesting that, um, that I think unwittingly, often people with anxiety, um, don't understand that it is anxiety and, and, and, and I've used this

17:51phrase before and I don't mean to shame anybody, but there's a kind of behavior that's kind of smearing, right? It's just like, it jumps out of them and they, they're trying to, you know, get it out and get it answered and get it held and all the things. But not with people who really deserve to have to play that role in their lives, right? It's, um, it's, it's just unskilfulness. It's a misunderstanding. And there are, I have even encountered people who I would say, and, and I'll be interested in, in your take on this, uh, grandmother specifically over the long career, um, who feeling titled to express their anxieties to the person who I would even use the term in addition to sensitive are actually very vulnerable, right? A person who's just given birth, witness their first child being born, is in and will

18:56be in a quite vulnerable, physical, social, emotional and spiritual state. Right. Doesn't mean it's bad. It just means you want to keep the icky out and you want to help preserve the yum. And if there's something in the field that is anxious, fraught, as you said, they're going to be very sensitive to those things. And so I don't want to overplay this. But as you said, you know, this compulsion to express your anxieties is strong. And so getting skillful around not, not cutting at loose in the wrong, you know, in the wrong environment is tricky. So I'm very curious to your response to that. And tips, give us tips. We need tips. We all need tips. There was a lot of juicy stuff in what you just said. Okay. I'll try to pick certain pieces. Mm-hmm.

19:56Yes. Obviously having some really good awareness helps and there are various ways one can get it, including through some therapy and some work so that you can differentiate between what is reasonable to say and what actually might be useful as opposed to how the anxious person can often think, well, in case I don't say it, you know, just, just in case this is more OCD stuff, I'd be remiss if I didn't say something and then something happened and then it would be all my fault. And so I better say everything, just in case, you know, to be able to differentiate between the what ifs and the mind going a little bit, you know, down the rabbit hole as opposed to, yeah, what really might be in a practical way useful and have it be more of an educating thing. Not a... You got to worry about this. Be careful. You know, and also you can see I exaggerated my body language and my voice just to make

20:58a point, but that stuff is important. When I use the term sensitive, by the way, it was by no means a put down or a condescension. I love the vulnerable term. The, yeah, they're certainly, yeah, I think they're both there. And they, if anything, the new moms need a calming presence and often they are looking towards their maternal relatives, if they have mom or aunt or grandfather, you know, whoever it is, they are looking to us to be the, that's all normal. You're doing great. You know, they, they, they want so much to, to have that reassurance. So to keep that in mind as well, whenever one can give a positive word and, and, and a compliment when it's meant and specific, you know, and not always you're doing a great job, but I love the way you just looked at your baby and look at the, you know, you

22:01know, that, then they know it's deserved. It's not just, you know, mom saying nice things because she's mom, you know, and she feels she has to. Well, here, here's a little sub question. I'm 100% believer in getting some good pointed therapy when you've been able to or someone else has helped you identify that you're suffering from anxiety, OCD, anxiety driven depression. I've heard it called sometimes, which really fits my, me. That's for the individual to address how they're experiencing the world and to find more ease and all the things. I'm a big fan of and I've spoken to this many times on the program. I think everybody could use a little mindfulness based stress reduction course, just to get through life. So that's another sort of skill building tool in your toolbox approach for anybody, right?

23:05And everybody, because we don't know what's going to come around the corner and tip us, right? Knock us a little bit. So those kinds of things, I think are pretty important. But I also would just say, like, I think it's so brilliant how you, I know it was, you know, the struggle of your lifetime to be trying to be a new mom and being just hit with all of this stuff, right? And no doubt it drained a certain amount of the joy out and, you know, that's hard stuff. And as you point out, like, it doesn't get better if your community or your environment isn't supporting you in the reality that needs to be addressed. Do you have a long side getting in touch with you or, you know, seeking some good therapy?

24:12What do you say to yourself that the you that was that new mom who couldn't find support or didn't know whether or not there was any support? To somebody right now, because Shoshana, I find that every person who gets pregnant is reinventing the wheel. They don't know what they don't know. This culture is highly effective at keeping people dislocated from reality and the realities of the every day challenging things. And so do you want to speak to, um, okay, you know, moms to be? Yeah. Well, not just moms to be, but everybody, like dads, we had the dad care dude on recently and he was very good. But I think, you know, new moms are going to find themselves in a state that they couldn't have imagined unless they've been working with depression and anxiety for quite some

25:16time. And that's not true of every single mom, right? Some for some new moms, it does really hit them out of the blue. But even moms who've been working with it a long time, sometimes find themselves in this new territory and, right, aren't sure which way to turn. And then if the very family that they thought they could be reliant on for social, some emotional support, can't show up for them in the way that they wish it could. It's a big, it's a big super swimming in and I'm curious, you know, again, there's just so much you just said, it's like, where are you going to go? I was like, Oh, when there's there in the, I'm glad you brought up dads. He has absolutely dads can, can be depressed and anxious as well. They can have a bout of bipolar disorder when they haven't before. I mean, definitely, I'm focusing on new mothers because that is usually who is affected. But certainly if she's affected and not getting help, the partner is very much at risk.

26:20But we will go there. I know you've already had a podcast on that on that topic, but I like to draw in with my clients. Anyways, definitely like to draw in the partner unless there's a big reason why we shouldn't at least second, maybe third session because they are very much a part of her healing. And also, I want to make sure that, you know, he's doing what he needs to do for himself, too. Often the people, when we talk about the Dr. Shosh well in this plan with seven different parts, one of them is lining up your emotional supports. If we can do this during pregnancy, great, but sometimes it's new parenthood. And the people who she thinks should be those emotionally supportive people, they end up not being those people. So I encourage, you know, a new parents to think, you know, who are the people you can be real with? You can just open your heart to you or not worried about criticism or judgment.

27:22You can, yeah, you can just be authentic and say what's on your mind and all your worries and nobody's going to, you know, wag a finger at you or anything. And sometimes it's a very different list. Y'all, please go ahead. Or say, but you have this wonderful baby. Well, that's Jamie. Right. I hear that in the hospital. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you have no business feeling anything other than joy, which a big way to shame. They don't mean to, they're, they're, you know, they're, they might be well-meaning, but it is the absolutely wrong thing to say to, to any new milk. Because again, even baby bullies, normal stuff doesn't feel good. And there can be some natural, normal worries going through her head even without any disorder of anxiety. And so to hear, you know, you shouldn't even say that out loud or, or, you know, just, you know, in other words, be quiet and be happy. Yeah.

28:23But no, that, that is still happy, which blows me away in this day and age that we still, we still get that stuff and it keeps perpetuating all these myths of motherhood. I'm only allowed to feel like this is the happiest time in my life, et cetera, you know. So well. Yeah. And then it's repeated a bit with the transition into mother to matriarch. Right. Oh, you're a grandparent. You get, you should only be happy to sort of repeats itself. Exactly. Which is part of the article that you read, you know, I, at that time lived in a 55 and older, you know, community. And that's, that was the topic of the day. I mean, you're just walking around, you know, meeting each other and it's like, oh, do you have children? You know, and then of course, when you say, yes, the immediate question after that is, do you have any grandchildren? Of course, they don't really care. They just want to talk about their grandchildren and all of their pictures, and that's nothing to do with us. But it was very interesting.

29:25And I learned, you know, I learned how to keep my mouth shut just like I did when I was going through postpartum depression. Yeah. I just acted. Oh, yes. Excited about it. Can't, can't wait. It'll be so what inside I'm going, I am dreading this. I am scared. I'm happy for hers. She always wanted to be a mommy, you know, and that was very separate, you know, has nothing to do with how much we love people. And it's, it's, yeah, that really did take over. So I, I just pretended, and I got really good at that a few generations ago, and you know, a few, a few, a few years ago, pretending. Yeah. Well, you're, your phrase that you just use, keeping your mouth shut reminds me of a story and that we've had other, someone else was sharing actually your buddy Jane, Hanuman. Yes. We had her on and she was talking about a friend who became a grandparent and overstepped the role. I mean, Esther, you were talking a little bit about that entitlement feeling. And I don't know that it was necessarily like trying to caution someone or, or if it was

30:29just like, my way is better or general bulldozing, but for whatever, whatever would happen, it was too much. It was over the line, it was too many boundaries crossed too, too many times, and the relationship disintegrated. So it was a bit of a word of warning, like, you know, when you become a grandparent, you do need to beat that full about your role. And then a lot of what we've been talking about so far on this program is communication. It really just seems like communication is key. Yes. And we can definitely get into that and thank you. And sometimes there are cultural factors playing in too, like the new parent will go, but where I come from and my whole family, the mother comes in swoops in. I'm supposed to stay over here. She coax, she cleans. You know, I mean, so those kinds of factors come in too. So I always find out, you know, do do the cultural factors in your particular case play a role and then we'll work that into a plan. But yes, there's a difference between being a guiding reassuring, giving the words of

31:33wisdom and the, you know, the good stuff, helping when you're asked to help not just swooping in and taking over and being respectful and being controlling. That can be difficult to navigate sometimes, especially when you've had, you know, the mom will say, but I've had, I mean, the grandma in this case will say it, but I've had so many kids and I know how to do it. So just watch me and I'll just do it. And the new mom is just feeling discard. I mean, she's feeling like what was I just as vessel to pop out a kid and I mean, I'm the mother. I'm the mother. And she has a very hard time asserting herself and moving. It's hard enough to graduate into that role, right, to transition into a mom role. But when you have her mom or mother-in-law, for instance, taking over, she still feels like the kid. So it does take sometimes some very interesting dancing, you know, to work out, you know, how much do you assert?

32:34Because I'll tell my clients, yes, it's important. You know, boundaries are important, but you got to pick and choose what boundaries you're talking about. You know, if she's making white rice instead of brown rice, do you really want to make that a thing? You know, but if it's really important, if it's a health and safety thing about the child, yeah, you're going to want to say something, but how do you say it? So we'll do a lot of role-playing, you know, you know, I'll be you and you'll be your mother in law. And of course, you will exaggerate the, you don't know what you're doing, just go, you know, and I'll say, thank you so much for helping, for loving us so much, but, you know, but, but here's what the doctor said to do it, and we're going to follow the, you know, sometimes that works really well when you say that it doesn't necessarily work with a really overpowering older relative. It's like, doctor doesn't know what they're talking about. I've had nine children, you'll hear that too, but there are ways to assert and still and

33:35not end up feeling horrible because you just yelled at your mom, you know, there are ways to do that. And I hold my clients responsible for whatever comes out of their mouth, no matter how difficult it is, no matter how depressed, no matter how anxious we are all responsible, you know, psychosis is something in its own little box over here, but, you know, the, the, the paranetal mood and anxiety disorders, except for that one, definitely we are responsible for how we, you know, there's a way to do it well. And when I work with grandparents, sometimes the grandparents are taking, are taking care of the children because the parents aren't able for various reasons. So they're actually the primary caretakers, sometimes they're the daycare, no, the parents are there, but they're both working and the grandparents are taking care. There can be all kinds of scenarios, sometimes it's a once in a while visit. There's always a way or almost, almost always a way to work out boundaries in a health

34:37full way on both sides. Because again, I'm working more and more with grandparents as I know Jane is too. She was, I met up with Jane, by the way, way back before the first PSI plus part of support international conference. I mean, that's how, that's how far back I met with Jane and started to be part of that organization from the beginning and kind of blended mine into PSI and, and we, we were doing some pioneering together and then, and then form the institute, parental action institute, we change it from postpartum to parental, you know, to, to bring the, the dads in anyway, not to launch, launch into that. But yeah, Jane and I go away with that. Yeah. And thank goodness you did and you, and thank goodness you did work on that together and, and launched that important organization that's been incredibly impactful. The other thing that's coming to mind hearing you talk until your story is, is an exercise that, Esther, you helped put together early on in one of our first episodes ever talking about journaling and reflecting on the roles, like, what do I want my fourth trimester to

35:43look like? How do I want to feel? Who do I want to be there? Like, a lot of what you're talking about are similar sorts of considerations. And I just wonder if that's something that could be useful and applicable for someone who's about to become a grandparent or get to the happy news. I'm a grandparent because that could be really good reflection, a for the awareness part, but then be also to communicate and say, Hey, this is the kind of role I want to play. With that work for you, son or daughter, can I be that for you? What do you want from me? That's beautiful. And actually, parents or parents to be, if at all possible, should be talking with each other and not assuming the very same way that you just described, right? If mommy and daddy can sit down together before baby comes and say, What are the wishes and the expectations? That's part of the wellness plan, by the way, that Dr. Show's role has been, it's talking about expectations and wishes. So there aren't, there's not all this assuming going on, you know, of course you want me

36:45to do this and this and this and, and you know, she's going, you know, of course, he's going to do this and nobody's, nobody's talking with each other, it's just assuming things. So yes, it often what I will do with, with Elana, my daughter is I will, and this is what I did from the very beginning, I'm happy to say, despite all the stuff going through my mind, it's what would be most helpful for you? What would be most useful? Because I jumped back to when I was postpartum and other than feeling like I lost my mind, I mean, there were just mundane, there were, there was laundry, there was just a lot, preparation, food preparation, you know, there were, there is some basic, very physical things that I needed done. So I asked her and you know, what she came up with was totally different than my list, because I just started to, sometimes I just started to scoop up her laundry and take it. She goes, no, no, no, no.

37:45Here's what she said to me, which still blows my mind, but mom, I've made it a long time to be a mom, I get to do the laundry. I couldn't relate to that at all. I went, okay, I have to listen to her. I didn't really understand it, but I had to respect it. She doesn't want me to do the laundry. She didn't want me to do food preparation. That's just what I thought because of my own experience. So that is something for grandparents to keep in mind. She isn't you. Ask her. Don't assume what, just ask her, what would be most useful? What do you really need? How can I serve you the very most and you might be surprised at her answers. But you will really, really love you for asking that. And for really listening to what she says. And there are probably things that can be creatively solved, right? If you're a grandparent or a grandparent to be who isn't physically capable of helping

38:49out in certain ways, like doing laundry if that's the desire in your story, it wasn't that that's core thing. But yeah, so there are probably ways that people could do things. In fact, a friend of mine, Lisa Chin, who's also been a guest on our program, I just met with her. She's doing do a lot of work now herself and she had a mother-in-law hire her to help support new parents. And she said that was really great because the mother-in-law wasn't like, there needed to be distance in that particular scenario, but they wanted to help and that was a good solve. Absolutely. That's a beautiful answer. Sometimes it is the hiring or sending the gifts certificates for food. I remember I wasn't able to accept the help. I was too ill, I just kept pushing away everything at that point, but my mom, who was in Cleveland and I was in California, she said, I will be there as much as I can and she did. She traveled, but often she couldn't, she had a job too as a social worker.

39:54But she said, would a nightmares or someone to fill that capacity help you? Because she was very willing to do that, my parents were very willing to do that. I unfortunately turned it down. I had insomnia, I couldn't sleep so I'm thinking, what's the point? I couldn't sleep. But anyway, that's a whole other discussion. But yes, that's a wonderful way to help, either because it's best for the two of them not to necessarily be under the same roof or if the grandparent cannot be there or cannot work in that capacity. I told my daughter, right off the bat, I cannot do overnight, but I will pay for somebody to be there. I know me in sleep deprivation and it's not pretty. And so I was going to be a lot less help to her during the day, right? If I was up at nighttime. So that was one of the things I offered to to give her as well. What a fantastic gift. And Esther, you would probably recommend, even if you are able to be present and under

40:57the same roof, it's still a great gift. And you know, it makes things better with the relatives, you know, better with mom and daughter or mother-in-law and daughter. If somebody outside is paid and then leave, you know, does their job, someone objective, there isn't the emotional whatever hanging around there, right? There's no baggage. Someone comes in, does their wonderful job that they're trained to do, right? I love do-less, I just love do-less, I train them all the time and I love them. You know, it makes the relationship between mom and daughter even better when somebody is hired, even if the mom is capable of doing it, even if, even if, it makes it simpler. Financially, you put something, you know, it's definitely an investment, but it really can enhance the relationship, at least not get in the way of it and make things more

41:57tense, if that makes sense. I'm thinking about scenarios where grandparents may have been asked to step in by parents, to do a modicum of childcare early, later down the line at some point. And now because they have fully taken on a parenting role, they're struggling with when the parents come back on board or for that part of the day when they're back on board, with not sort of just sort of following through with a more parental approach to the grand child and then they're being kind of a strain, you know, in those roles. And I'm speaking personally, I did quite a bit of gramma meeing with my grandson at a certain stage who's a little older, you know, I was around a lot and I wouldn't necessarily

43:01just be able to shut off the responsible for your behavior and your safety and all your nutrition and all the things the minute parents showed up. And my daughter was quite gracious, it took her, it took a while, but she was quite gracious and just saying, finally, she said, I thought this was so dear and I so appreciated it really, it really worked on me. She said, you know, I just want you to be able to be a grandma. I want you to have the grandmothering experience and not feel responsible, you know, where the parents, we've got this, we're doing it, and you can just relax and be his grandma. And it took me a minute, you know, I mean, I was thrilled to hear it, but the whole instinct to just kick in and parent is strong, I think. Well, and I just want to say that I was Sarah, I think I sent you the podcast and it's about mammals and grandmothers in mammalian culture.

44:05It's a radio. It's so interesting. It was so interesting, but what was really interesting in the end is that they used these specific examples and I came away going, well, that's just one grandma and how she's experiencing so that right whale grandma was all about, you know, keeping the kids fed and giving mom a break and teaching the babies to hunt and making sure everybody got enough to eat. And that chimpanzee, I don't think she ever even became a grandma, but she was menopausal and her sons took care of her and she was just eating it up. She was happy just vacation for the rest of her life. And so I think just speaking to like, we all have different aspects of our own personalities and experience and what we may or may not have thought through in terms of what experiences we want to have and sometimes even those experiences we might want to have are in some

45:09sense in conflict, right? On the one hand, we want to be super grandma and on the other hand, we're old, we want to relax. And if a baby doesn't want to just lay on her chest, we're too tired. So, you know, it is, I do want to say like for individuals, we had some maybe fantasy of what grandmothering would be and maybe it's exactly like that and maybe it's not. And so, you know, kind of coming to terms with all of that is a process and it was a wild process because if you're stuck in a paragon and it's not working out for you, that sucks. And just like they're learning how to be parents, we are learning how to be grandparents. So to give yourself some grace as well, you know, it's not only wonderful of your daughter, the way she said, I just want you to be able to enjoy being a grandma.

46:10She didn't say, would you stop doing that? I could do that myself. You know, she handled that really beautifully, but also we want to commend you for not taking offense and feeling, you know, to displace like, oh, she doesn't need me anymore because that's one thing. And by the way, if I'm speaking to your audience, if those feelings come up, it doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. It's just good to notice like, oh, maybe I won't be needed anymore. You know, it's important to notice that because if that's there, it'll take some redoing and rethinking and renegotiate it, you know, about what your role is. It's not that you don't have a role, but it's, you might be moving more as a supplement, you know, as a backup or in the background or, you know, but it's not a bad thing. It's just a change, but just it's important to notice so you don't feel completely displaced and discarded kind of. It's not all or nothing. It's not either you're doing parenting or you don't have a role.

47:12And I'll speak to the new mothers because this happened to my daughter and I quite a bit, I would tell her when you need me, tell me, I'm right here or I'm in the next room or whatever. So I made myself available, but wasn't just automatically taking over, which I noticed through verbal feedback from her and also just the way she is, that that was best. But then again, as a new mom, she would just leave the room sometimes and assume I would be in charge. So it goes both ways, right? Because sometimes like mom, why weren't you watching him? It's like, yeah, yeah, you didn't ask me. I was trying to be respectful. So you know, though, it's a, you know, it's a relationship. So it isn't own, I know it's speaking to grandparents right now, but it's up to the new parents as well to communicate as well as you can so that your wonderful grandparents

48:13and the grandparents in the situation will know what you're wanting, even from minute to minute, right? So yeah, yeah, communication, of course, there it is again. It's good. I, it just occurred to me, you know, it's so interesting to, you said we sometimes fear that what happens if we're not needed? And I think that really speaks to how much of a capitalist culture is transactional, right? The way we make connection is to be useful versus having intrinsic soul value and being able to connect somehow on that level in a non-transactional way, right? Like if I give you this, then you give me love versus I love you, right? I think communication is in some ways, especially in, in these tender frot, sometimes frot

49:19moments of vulnerable early postpartum and even far beyond the early postpartum, we can get very caught up in the practical, right, to the point where just let them go a little bit of time and space, we're, we're, we know we're going to be fed or we've been fed and watered and now we can just let go into being together, not a lot of words, not any expectations, we're just here together, we're adoring this newborn and each other. I remember thinking so often in my early postpartum, everybody was flitting off, you know, trying to figure out what to do or how to get out of there, right? And all I, I remember this so strongly, all I wanted was a quiet, loving presence that

50:22was reflective of my own quiet, loving presence of this newborn. That's all. I know this is you, you as a new mother, you say, you as a new mom, yes, I would have liked to have the experience of dad, grandma, whoever's around and I did in, in little moments, but I could have used so much more of the just, isn't she beautiful and isn't it nice that we get to all be together? It's very important what you just said. I think many, many of us, it's not just a cultural thing, I think it's just about everywhere. We tend to, to, to measure our value in, in practical tasks and what, what have we done, you know, did we fix the window, did we buy the food, did we, you know, it's, it's in those active ways and sometimes you're absolutely right. We just, we just want somebody to be there, that, that loving presence and, you know, my,

51:27my daughter and I live in, in, she has a three year old now and a six year old and we're in different states, but she calls me when she wants to check something out. She wants to bounce something off me. She wants to ask my opinion. She knows I'm there, am I in her living room, no, which might be better for her, I don't know. But, um, sometimes it is, but the, the point is, to your point, she's got me. She knows that I am there to, you know, I'm so proud of you, honey, and isn't it wonderful? Oh, isn't he cute? Thank you for sending that picture. You know, just, just to be there in that way, not necessarily checking off the physical tasks that I'm, I'm doing it. So as a, as a grandparent, she needs me in different capacities. And yes, if I'm there and I can do certain of those physical things, she might ask me to do that, but the key is she's asking me to do that. I don't necessarily measure my importance in that way.

52:31Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what a relief. Right? Like, I mean, I, I have to say like it, it is a release. I'm, of course, I'm, in my role as a doula, I try to balance the practical, you know, ask oriented aspect of, you know, stuff does need to get done so that it's not piling up and nobody starts to feel anxious that it's piling up against the presence. What's going on? How are you doing? How are you feeling? Here's some, here's some info. Do you have any questions or concerns? Of course, but again, that's your job, I mean, talking about a professional, in a professional capacity, it's different and, and you know why you're higher, you know, yeah, there's still needs to be communication, different ones of your clients, the families you're helping, they might need different things and say, no, we don't need lunch prepared, but could you do this and this and this, that would be very supportive.

53:34It still takes communication, but in a professional capacity, it's different from the grandparent. Well, I think we've established there's no one way to grandparent, which is a wonderful thing and that communication is really important, self-reflection, communication with yourself and in both directions. So if you're a new parent and you're talking to your parents about how you want it to be, so all kinds of stuff that can come up then also for the grandparent who's new and their own experience or maybe even there, when they were kids, what was their grandparents like, right? All sorts of stuff that can come up. Dr. Shosh, we've had such a great conversation. I was wondering if there are any final thoughts you wanted to leave us with. Well, I can't believe the time just went like that. I can never believe that when we have conversations, well, one thing, yeah, I do want to go back and remind your audience that if you have any of those feelings come up that I had that were quite surprising of your own past experiences that really might, you're feeling really

54:35might get in the way of your relationship with your child or future grandchildren, get some help yourself. That's exactly what I did. Got some EMDR and some talk therapy and a few times until I knew what was what and had to manage my own stuff so I could be there fully for my daughter in her journey, not just in my own. So hopefully that was useful. Yeah. Thank you so much. Dr. Shosh, where can people learn more about you? Certainly my website is the best place to go, drshosh.com, drshosh.com, D-R-S-H-O-S-H.com. You'll see my books and you'll see online classes. If anything comes up, by the way, I want to hear from your audience. If there are follow-up questions or anybody has not even, if you don't have to want a session with me, it's okay. But if questions come up from your audience, they can put, you know, fourth trimester podcast

55:40in the subject line and I would be very happy to get back to them. I'm talking to the audience, to get back to you. So feel free to reach out, but definitely my website is the way to go. Thank you. Station. You can subscribe to this podcast in order to hear more from us. Thank you for listening, everyone. I hope you'll join us next time on the fourth trimester. The theme music on this podcast was created by Sean Trott. Hear more at SoundCloud.com slash Sean Trott. Special thanks to my true loves, my husband Ben, daughter Penelope, and baby girl Evelyn. Don't forget to share the fourth trimester podcast with any new and expecting parents. I'm Sarah Trott. Goodbye for now. Hello again, bicycle man, I know you're doing all that you can. I wrote the song, simple and true, I wrote the song, I'll sing a song for you.

56:45You got your wheels, you got your gears, you ride around town with how many feet, you got your pedals, you got your brakes, you always wear your helmet for safety's sake. Hello again, bicycle man, I know you're doing all that you can. I wrote the song, simple and true, I wrote the song, I'll sing a song for you.

57:59Hello again, bicycle man, I know you're doing all that you can. I wrote the song, simple and true, I wrote the song, I'll sing a song for you.