Thou Shalt Only Read the KJV? (ft. Dr. Mark Ward)

0:00Hey guys, John here with the Clearview Today Show, and I want to just take a second and talk to you about today's sponsor, Watch Safe. If you're a parent, you know that your child going on YouTube unsupervised is a no-go. Even a few minutes of unchecked viewing can expose them to content that is inappropriate, confusing, harmful, downright evil. This is a very real danger in the digital world that moves too fast for us to control. That's why we need apps like Watch Safe. It lets you create a personalized profile for every child in your household. You can approve only the channels you trust. You can set daily time limits, and you can monitor exactly what they're watching. It's going to give you control, and more importantly, it's going to give you peace of mind. So don't leave your child's screen time to chance. Take action today, download Watch Safe, and right now, you can get 30% off your subscription with our promo code today, that's T-O-D-A-Y. Take a step today and protect what your children watch before it's too late. Thanks for listening, and let's get into the show. We have the word of God in our hands, because in his providence, God has preserved the word for us.

1:00But what do you do when a certain group of Christians says only this word of God is the real word of God? Understanding how to respond, coming up right now on The Clearview Today Show. You're listening to Clearview today with Dr. Abadansha, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Welcome to The Clearview Today's studio with our host, Dr. Abadansha, if you're watching with the very first time today, Dr. Shah is a PhD in New Testament, Textural Criticism Professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor in the host of today's show, Dr. Shah. I've seen you in like a whole new light, literally, because we have some special guests going to be on our show. That's right. And we have one today. That's right. That's right, Dr. Ward. Welcome. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. I've seen it earlier downstairs. It's good to actually see you in person. You watch someone online for years at a time, then you meet them in person. It's like, okay. What do you think I was going to be? I actually thought you were going to be tall. Okay. I thought you were going to be like six, two. All right. Six, one. I disappointed you.

2:00No, I have, I got to say, I did not actually bust out the tape measure. How tall are you? Six feet. Okay. I mean, that's a good idea. I'm six, like, one. So, I mean, we're pretty small. We're right there in the same body. Yeah. Yeah. Nobody's tall, like Frankenstein over here. I mean, hey, only six, three. Six, three is pretty good, though. Yeah. Dr. Shah, do you want to talk to our audience for just a little bit and let everyone know how we got up with Dr. Mark Ward? Well, so several years ago, one evening, I'm sitting on my couch doing my work, reading this, reading that, and my phone buzzes, and Dr. Robinson there, so I said, oh, okay. We usually discuss variants at 10 o'clock at night. So, I'm looking at it. He said, hey, this guy, Mark Ward, you need to check up on him. I said, okay. And so, that's how it actually came about with that. So, for the benefit of our listeners and viewers, Dr. Ward has his YouTube channel, Ward on Words. I love that. And he has taught on right now media and different schools. He has a PhD in New Testament interpretation from Bob Jones.

3:02And he has written hundreds of articles for Lagos, as well as other publications, and taught a different seminaries, Bob Jones, of course. And Annie O'Krishan Training School, Foundation Baptist College, and has written several books, and several are coming out. That's right. So, that's pretty awesome. Congratulations. Yeah, thank you. I'm just amazed at what the Lord has given me the opportunity to do. Well, what I like about you is you're talking about issues that matter, and your content looks so good, that it is appealing to people, even people who may otherwise not be interested in the subject, but seeing how well you do it, I think it draws them in. Yeah. So, you know, you know, you know, speaking of your YouTube channel, and this is not a sensational show, we're not about gossip or YouTube drama over here, but I feel like we have to address

4:02the controversial element in the room, and that is my public apology video. Yeah. You use the font in one of your videos that people really did not sit well with. Yes, they were very... They were very... They were free with their opinion. What led to that? Like, I can't tell where the joke ends and where the, like, I really genuinely love this font begins. Like, is that a good font to you? I do. Well, okay. So, it is a mixture. I do really love type faces. Okay. I really care. And every once in a while, I pick one that maybe you could say is to avant-garde. Okay. And regular people who really should have the final say in this, because they're the ones who have to read the text that I produce on my screen, they cried foul. There was a small percentage of people who loved this font that I chose called Monotallic, but they were drowned out by the others who did not appreciate it.

5:03It's a monotallic? Yeah. It has just plain, simple font and then cursive's thrown between them. Am I right? Is that the best way to describe it? Yeah. So, it's monospaced. So, every single... This is very important for this show, right? Well, I just feel like we had to. There are exactly two people who were listening with Bated Breath taking it. Yeah. Yeah. But I think once people look up the monotallic font, they'll be like, oh, like, why on earth? Now, I will say, Ryan is our font guy. And he kind of rules within our fist. Like, I'll be putting videos out. And he'll see it. He's like, you're not putting that font in there. You can switch that to Montserrat or you can switch it to lemon milk. Yeah. I'm like, no, no, I think this one looks good. He's like, you're not putting it. I've used Montserrat a lot. Montserrat is a good one. Yeah. It's like a Gotham, not a Thumb. Yes. I care about fonts and I care about them in part because in Bible reading, let's get it back to Bible. Yeah. Yeah. It really does matter. I have picked up Bibles that were so typographically, horrifically ugly. They're screaming at me. I can't read the Bible.

6:03And then I pick up some, I really do love what Crossway does. And their main Bible font is called lexicon designed by a Dutch designer, Bram to Doze. And it just says Bible to me. It's perfect. Yeah. I think that the shape of the type on the page actually really does have an impact on your reading experience. And then the other typographical decisions such as those related to paragraphing, those matter for Bible interpretation. So there is, I'm not just being a type snob like snob, like snob, like snob, like snob, like snob. Yeah. There's a book out, brand Luther. Have you read that book? I have seen it. I've wanted to read that one. That's a great book. Yeah. And it was interesting how Luther was very particular about the fonts. And so when he first got into the printing world, he was very particular. And if it was not carried out the way he wanted it to be, he would take his business elsewhere. Yeah. I mean, he was, he, that's a good book by the way. But anyways, but I appreciate, I appreciate you bringing up the readability.

7:06It's important that what this Bible, this word of God that we're reading is readable by the masses. And I think that was the focus of one of the documentaries that you made, the authorized documentary where, you know, we've got this King James version that universally it seems all of these Christians agree this is the one. And yet the majority of people struggle to read it. You know, do you want to kind of talk about that, that conviction that you had to make that? Well, boy, I can't stop talking about it, you know, it's, it's in my heart. I really love the plow boy. That's William Tindale's inspiration for translating the Bible into English in the first place. And I actually played William Tindale at my Christian high school, you know, in the, in his play, air many years and I was burned at the stake in front of all my friends and family for the cause of getting the Bible to the regular person. And the difficulty we face now is that the regular person is offended to be told that they're, the regular person. And I feel weird even saying that. I don't want to insult anybody, but there is a difference between somebody who's a specialist

8:06in Bible translation and the biblical languages and even specialists in English and the regular person who is a specialist in their own thing, whatever it is that they do. And I don't mean it as an insult to say that people are having more trouble reading the King James version than they're aware. Some people are well aware, they pick it up and can't make head or tails of it. But I think many people who grew up with it as I did assume that they're understanding it really well when they're missing a lot of little things because of language change, things that add up over time. So I have been trying to defend the plowboy without insulting him. And trying to explain to people who continue to use the King James version, here's what you need to look out for when you're reading it. Here's how language change affects your ability to understand it. It's been a major focus of my work for quite a number of years. Yeah. For those of you who may not know the plowboy references that William Tyndale said that he wants to translate it in such a way that even the plowboy could read it, you know,

9:11the scripture should not be just for the elites or the religious people, it can be for the commoner. Right. Anybody can read it. You know, Dr. Shaw, if someone is listening to this and let's say they're a Christian, let's say they just got saved last week. This is their first introduction into like Christian culture. Do you want to explain the problem of what King James only is? Like these people who believe that only this is the word of God. And then, Dr. Ward, do you want to kind of follow up with your experience in that life and now kind of your mission in correcting it, adjusting it, you know, like how do you want to, however you want to put that? Let's take a quick break. This is John here from Clearview today. Before we jump in, quick shout out to today's sponsor, Mighty Muscadine. If you've been looking for a natural way to support your health, these guys are doing it right. From 100% Muscadine grape juice to really high quality supplements, everything they make is handcrafted. It's backed by science. And best of all, it's grown right here in our home state of North Carolina.

10:12Visit MightyMuscadine.com. Use promo code today. That's T-O-D-A-Y at checkout and you're going to get 10% off your order. And every time you use that code, you are directly helping us here at the Clearview today show, continue spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ. So thank you for that. Thank you to Mighty Muscadine for sponsoring this episode. Let's jump in. Sure. I mean, I can get the ball rolling and you can go further with it. Well, King James Version only is, you know, and again, I want to make sure we represent the people well, whoever we're talking about, when it comes down to where they stand convictionally, it's amazing how much I line up with them when it comes to biblical doctrines regarding whether it's scripture or trinity or incarnation, heaven and hell, the depravity of human beings and even to some extent, you know, eternal salvation, all of those things we are right on. And I appreciate their convictions and willing to stand for it.

11:15Right. I want to make sure we say that. But then there is this part about the King James only side, which is where they prefer that text, which is coming from the TR, the Texas Receptus, and it has places in there that are not, I would say, very well supported by manuscript evidence. And one famous one, if I can throw it out, they would be their Comma Joinium, right? First John 5, 7, 3 on earth, but 3 in heaven, things like that. And when we talk about those things, there's a manuscript side of things where I don't think it's correct, but then there's also the translation side of things where it has in many ways become archaic. And now the whole purpose is defeated and you want people to read it. But William Tindale, right? But if they can't, then why are we doing that? Because it sounds sacred, it sounds spiritual, and I don't think that was intended.

12:16So there's a manuscript side of things, and then there's a translation side of things. Right. And then now there's, you know, in the past few years, a new movement called confessional bibliology. I don't know if you want to jump into that as well, because that comes in as well. It's like breathing life into this, this old movement with a twist to it. So yeah, you got the ball rolling very well, and I will now pick it up and shoot a half quart shot in a spare slam, don't go through it. Yes, separating text and translation is absolutely essential. And let me just talk to those out there who encounter King James only, brothers and sisters, and let's make that really clear, I totally agree with you that our brothers and sisters in the King James only movement, our unity with them is far more important than the areas where we disagree with them and eternity in heaven, or on the new earth together rejoicing in the presence of God. I admired them for their evangelism and their backbone.

13:16I was raised in King James onlyism, especially my high school years, and I wasn't abused. I had a wonderful Christian school and faithful teachers and a faithful pastor. So I'm grateful. I'm not bitter against them at all, but I disagree. And I do believe that King James onlyism produces disunity in the church. So if you encounter a King James onlyist, what do you do? I think you're going to try to, you should try to obey what Jesus said when he said blessed are the peacemakers. You want to restore unity. Galatians 6 says, if someone is, the King James says overtaken in a fault, that means they stumble into sin. If it's another Christian, you want to restore that person in a spirit of meekness considering yourself because you also might be tempted. And that's what I'm trying to do with King James onlyists. I believe that they're wrong to divide from other Christians over the text and translation of the Bible. I also believe after long experience that trying to argue about textual criticism, which

14:18you and I could do with them all day long, all week long, we can go deep on that topic. It rarely has a positive effect because most people haven't had the opportunity to dig into the Greek and the manuscript evidence. It's a very complex field. So I have focused almost entirely on translation on my YouTube channel and my book authorized the use and misuse of King James Bible. Book by the way. Thank you very much. It's got jokes in it and it's short. So that's the two best things Christian love. In that book, I focus pretty much entirely on translation and I say, if you, if you prefer a particular Greek text, totally fine. Just make or use a translation of it into fully intelligible contemporary English because first Corinthians 14 teaches that edification requires intelligibility. And they tell me, well, you just need to look up the hard words that you don't know. And that's going to be true of whatever Bible translation you pick up that you yes, be the NIV, even the new living translation or the message.

15:20You'll have to look up something. That's true. But I want to eliminate unnecessary barriers to Bible reading, which is hard for a lot of Christians. That's right. And I think archaic language, such as in the King James or in the Geneva Bible or in Tindale's New Testament, those, that archaic language is an unnecessary barrier to intelligibility. I think that's such a refreshing take and it's such an important thing to mention, you know, giving people access to God's word. And in a way that they can read and understand, Dr. Shai, I know that's your heart as well. Because in, in messages, you haven't shied away from saying, now, this is translated this way. Really, the translators should have said this, but not this isn't, that doesn't mean there are mistakes in our Bible. It just, you help, you help people navigate those difficult pathways with ease. And it's difficult, you know, and you, you have passed it as well. Am I right? I've been an assistant pastor. Right. So it's hard because you don't want to ever cause doubts in the minds of the people to feel like, whoa, my Bible, is it? Not the right one. I mean, no, I want you to read the Bible.

16:21You know, I want you to, to trust the word of God and, and know that when you hold that translation in your hand, you're holding the word of God and inspired an errant word of God, authoritative word of God. So don't, so it's, it's tough, but at the same time, I'm one that can understand that there are people out there who understand the science of how we arrive at the original text. There are some issues that they work on and, and be aware of those things. So there's a textual side and then there's a translation side. This is not the best way to translate this. It may have meant this back then, but it doesn't mean that today. Yeah. I think that Christians today, because of YouTube, are getting hit from the right and the left. Oh, yes. If there was a day when we could all just kind of ignore New Testament textual criticism and translational differences, I think that day is gone. I do think that Christians need to learn about the history of how we got our Bibles.

17:23And so I've worked on, I know you've done things like this to, you've helped me on my channel do things like this. I've worked to find ways to communicate the basics of how we got our Bibles to, to Christian people. And at the conference that you're putting on now, that's something I'm going to be doing again, Lord willing tomorrow. Absolutely. And that's the purpose for this apologetic conference. We encourage people. The pastors are coming here. I'm not sure where all they are, they stand on some of these issues. So we'll find out tomorrow, but many of them I know very well and some are great. They understand the field, some don't, but we're hoping that by the time the conference is done, they will have a much better understanding, a more balanced view of what, why we believe, you're not Byzantine tech form and, and we want to make sure people know that because in a typical conference where it's a King James only type a setting, you, you would not be welcome. No, I am public enemy number two in King James only as a, high James white.

18:26Well, so this is something I was going to ask. I didn't know if we had time to, but now since we seem to be going down this path, I'll ask it, is it number one, what contributes to that? But also number two, where does the, where is the evidence that this is the word of God? Also the text that were before the King James, that the King James translated from, was it that all of this was the word of God and it stops at the King James? Or is it, it was always leading up to the ultimate, which is the King James? It, it really varies across King James onlyism and King James onlyism is itself a spectrum. You know, from left to right, if I could push that way. On the far right is the Rukmanites and they follow Peter Rukman and they believe, although it gets really complex and it's hard to pin them down, I tried to be fair, I really am. They talk like the King James itself was inspired by God and corrects the Greek in the Hebrew, tells us what the Greek in the Hebrew either really mean or what the, the text, the underlying

19:28text should have said where they differ. And then the, but the mainstream of the King James only movement, they will say that the text is the issue and any good translation of the text we prefer into any language is in principle God's word. That's the more reasonable and mainstream view. Gotcha. When you push on the reasonable mainstream folks, if they keep talking to you, ultimately, they end up saying Rukmanite things. They end up saying God made the King James in a way that he didn't make or touch any other Bible translation. So I've tried to point that out. I have a long video where I talk about ways to avoid Rukmanism and I point out multiple examples in the mainstream of the King James only movement. People who I believe are sincerely trying to avoid the technical doctrinal heresy of saying our translation was literally inspired by God and versus all other translations.

20:33But I'm trying to show them the way you talk about the King James still you end up saying God did this and he didn't do the other translations. God, God could have done it that way. God could have made it so that there's one official translation of the Bible and it's going to be in English because English is going to be the most important world language and that is the way some extreme is talk. But the Bible doesn't tell us that he did that and what about the French, what about the Russians, what about the people who speak Urdu or Pashto, what Bible did they get and I find I really get confusion and blank stares when I ask questions about other languages. The middle group that Dr. Ward is referring to would be like a D.A. White, I would probably maybe sliding more towards Rukman, a lot of things that David Otis Fuller, Jasper James Ray, E.F. Hill, E.F. Hills was educated, Harvard, I believe, and then I think I'm going

21:35to get in trouble. But I think he got the degree just so he can come back and say that King James is the right one, which is kind of kind of shocking. So this is Ted Lietz who passed away years ago, I want to say 2003, somewhere about their time has been a while. So these are the people, let's just take Ted Lietz for example, when you hear him talk about his view, there are videos I think floating around on the internet, it almost seems like this is it, this is the word. Now he didn't believe in an energy that was kind of weird, but inspiration and ecclesiastical task. This is the ecclesiastical text and I don't know, I think the bibliologists have picked up on that. Maybe you need to talk about that, that would be more relevant. Yeah. So there, I grew up in mainstream King James onlyism and I want to say again, I had many wonderful Christians. Yes. They're not heretics.

22:37No. I disagree with them on this point and still love them completely and have the minute extend the same fable back. Now my teachers do, right, that's people that knew me personally and I do have friends in King James onlyism in the mainstream. I was going to meet one this afternoon and he got sick, waiting to meet him for years. He's like one of the top young leaders, I won't name his name, we were supposed to get together. We'll see. I respect his integrity, his Christian kindness to me, we can agree to disagree. It is true, however, that many King James onlyists can't agree to disagree. They have to go further than that and they denounce people like you and me for our views on textual criticism and translation and that is why the Calvinistic arm of the King James defenders called confessional bibliology, that's why, believe them, when they told me they're very different from the standard King James onlyist, I ultimately had to come to conclude, they really are essentially the same, they're like fraternal twins.

23:39In fact, I could even say they're identical twins, but one of them has a mole that the other one doesn't have the confessional bibliology folks and they are my brothers and I do have friends in that world who are also gracious to me and some that just are not. They want to point to the Westminster Confession of Faith, which for Calvinists, both Baptists and Presbyterians holds a lot of weight and should, I was ordained according to a form of the London Baptist Confession 1689, I updated the English, I couldn't be ordained according to an old document just in fit, but they want to say that the phrase in their Westminster 1.8 that the Bible has been kept pure in all ages means that whatever form of the text they had back then, which was in the Greek, the textus receptus, that is the confessional form that we all ought to hold on to. And if that's a pragmatic argument, I'm actually fine with that. If you say, you know, there's a lot of confusion in textual criticism, the sheep are upset

24:41by it. Why don't we just stick with what we've used for a long time? I say fine, but if you go on further and say, and let's divide from all the other Christians, those idiots, those heretics who use other Greek New Testament texts, then I'm saying, if you're going to divide from other Christians, which I think sometimes is called for, 2nd Thessalonians 3 says it, then you'd better have Bible for it, or you're violating the New Testament's other commands for unity. That's right. That's right. We only got a few minutes left, but I want to talk about your solution, your work now on educating people, educating Christians, especially educating Christians who are saying, I want to take this next step and maybe not go from a PhD, maybe not go for like a biblical master's, but just understand more and more about the Bible. Tell us a little bit about your YouTube channel word on words, that's tough to say. And what does it do? What does that mean, word on words? Yeah. It means that I really love words, and here's what I think. If you want to be a man of the word, or a woman of the word, then you need to be a man

25:45or woman of words. God chose to reveal Himself, not in pictures. That's right. In music, not in, you know, pick whatever other, you know, sensation He could have used or medium, He chose words. And He chose regular human languages, Greek and Hebrew were actually spoken in those forms by regular people. It gets complicated because Hebrew lasted a long time, but well, basically God spoke in the language of the plowboy. If that's true, then learning about language is a wonderful way to sensitize yourself, to learn about Bible interpretation. Otherwise we fall into exegetical, I could call them in Bible interpretation traps, where suddenly Greek carries incredible precision and meaning that you just can't get in the English. And what that does is it actually takes the Bible out of the hands of the plowboy. Yeah. So I want to hand the Bible to the plowboy and say, even if you don't know, Greek and Hebrew, and I don't think God calls most people to learn that we've got wonderful ways to

26:48learn it and more power to you. Even if you're not called to learn those languages, here are some tools you can use from linguistics to read your Bible better. John McWhorter is an atheist linguist, the best popularizer of any discipline I'm aware of and linguistics is his discipline. I've been able to interview him and be interviewed by him, major highlights in my life. He's a major hero of mine. Evangelicals, we are kind of famous for having an evangelical version of everything. Yeah. Yeah. And I want to be the evangelical, John McWhorter, who goes around using interesting, nerdy, talk about language to help sensitize people to better Bible reading. That's the point of word on words. And though I've talked a lot about King James onlyism, I'm not just trying to remove something bad, King James onlyism. I'm trying to replace it with something good. Global versions are us. How do you use multiple Bible translations, the more literal, the less literal, even sometimes the paraphrastic I'm finally listening through the message right now, and I'm actually

27:50much more pleased than I expected to be. I'm really enjoying Genesis in the message. I wouldn't use it for expository preaching, but there's a lot of good stuff in there. How do you use all the resources, the embarrassment of riches we have to know your God better through His Word? That's the focus of word on words. All of it. And the time that we have left, there's someone listening to the show who maybe has grown up with King James only, or maybe they're just confused now about which version of the Bible to read. Is this one okay? Is this one okay? I'm confused. What advice would you give them? Well, I just want them to know that if you thought that the purpose of the show was to make you doubt the Word of God, absolutely not, we want you to read the Bible. We just want you to be able to understand the Bible. Educate yourself, talk to people, read books that are on this subject. Don't just stick to the ones that are given to you on a list like you read this brother and nothing else. Don't you go listen to all the other heretics. Don't do that.

28:51Listen. That's right. And ask people. There are great people out there who will tell you the good, bad and ugly of a book on versions of the Bible. So educate yourself. That's right. So good. Dr. Word, thank you so much for being on the show today. It was wonderful having you here. Guys, make sure you join us tomorrow. Same time, same station. We're going to be diving into another great topic here on the clear view today's show. Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible. And if today's your first time listening to the show, we love you. We're glad that you're here. I hope you join us for tomorrow's conversation. Don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show. Anywhere podcasting content can be found. And you can always support us financially at abadhanshad.com forward slash give. That's right. Make sure you check out Dr. Mark Ward's YouTube channel Word on Word and all of his resources like his books, his documentaries. We're going to leave those in the description below and make sure you check out our new show How to Read Biblical Hebrew with Dr. Abadhanshad. You can find it on iTunes, video podcast, new lessons are being updated every single week. Thank you to everybody who's writing in saying that it's helping you. Again, that's exactly what we're trying to do. We're trying to help you read the Bible and the language it was written.

29:51And the more you do that, the more you're going to fall in love with the Word of God. That's right. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on Clear Read Today.