The Things We Over-complicate in Music Production

0:00And boom go and go we shall welcome. We are here one episode one episode episode one hundred ninety eight. Welcome to ADSM, Audio Notic Deep Space Network. You can tell we've had a week off, can't you? Oh well, in my case at least. Thank you for being here. It's wonderful to see so many people in the chat. I hope that our delay smiling errors meant that you managed to get your get your drink before we started. It is Audio Notic a clock ten past eight. That is pretty much bang on the money. Yeah. And Lars is in the chat as well. Lars is in the green room as well. I'm hoping at some point you might see how I. Excellent. But yes, my name is Curtis. We are here with back. Eon. How you doing, man? I'm good. Thank you. Yes. I will be doing everyone in the courtesy of not drinking. But I hope smiling

1:00errors. Hope you've got your gin rate. That's good. Who dares gins? If you're playing the drinking game then in that case, Valhalla, super massive, super massive, super massive. I think that's four or five you've got to do now. Yeah. Hi. Happy and glad to be here. That's good. I'm glad you have to be here. Me too, man. I missed you last week. It's weird, isn't it? It is. It's one week off, but yeah. Yeah, one week off, but then you have to pull the wrong. It's like, again, starting to lawnmower. That's okay. It's fine. Life is what happens. I think Ferris Peele said something a bit more profane than that, but we'll see. Life is what happens. What does he say? I don't know. Life is what happens. It's pretty fast. If you know it, stop and look around. Yeah. That's the one. Every time you've just got to stop and you've got to let them go around. That's what I was doing. What were you doing with your week off?

2:04Kind of in March, because I'm not remembering it. I know that I was doing little musical experiments. Lovely. But I don't know. Nothing really, noteworthy. I started using gates in place of side chaining again and still triggering gates with MIDI, but that's the way you can invert them. That's pretty handy for doing some stuff, but yeah, it's been noodling around, taking a hatchet to the album material and trying to beat things in the shape, but more than anything, trying to noodle around a bit and keep it playful. That's good. Absolutely. I mean, our topic of discussion today comes from a position of it not being or when our creative process becomes less creative. If you're keeping it creative, that's a great thing to do.

3:06Well, that's the idea. Whether or not it's working is another thing. Okay. Best intentions and all that. Yeah. Best intentions is all the way forward. What is the, how far along would you say the album is? Well, it depends when you ask me. On a good day, I would say, it's quite near to being done. On a bad day, so I'd say it might not be an album. That's a big. That's a really big. Yeah, you're that's a massive whiplash there. Yeah, exactly. I'm going to have to wear a neck brace if I can't become a bit more consistent in my opinion. But yeah, I mean, I don't know, the psychological game is hard.

4:06The music is damn easy in comparison. I think I've just, you know, everything's got to be amazing. And I think I just find myself a bit. The, we'll see. I hate that. I mean, which one of me wins? I mean, I hope that I hope the side of play for us wins. I mean, I get it. I absolutely can empathise with the overthinking and the running and the going back and forth when it comes to putting out a piece of work. I absolutely get it. I absolutely get it. You'll find your way, I'm sure. And, you know, it's going to be amazing. It's also a little bit about how the, how the tracks group as well. There are a few that are very sort of, of a certain kind of vibe. And we're born in similar ways. And there's a bit of a continuity to them. And then there are some other ones that are kind of pretty different, quite outliers, you might say. And I don't, and I just

5:13don't know what my opinion of them as a collection are. I kind of like there to be a bit of variety. And there's a part of me that always says, well, that's what I was doing at a time. It's a snapshot of, you know, where I was at at the time, what I was writing. So I don't recognise about things like that. But at the same time, I think, well, maybe they are just different things. Maybe they belong apart. Maybe it's a couple of EPs and not an album, I don't know. I mean, both are valid, then. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, when you had, when you put these, when you put these tracks together and you started putting them in, and you grouped them into one big project, was that intentional? Was that happenstance? Well, it was intentional. I wanted to write an album just because I wanted to do that whole sort of to have a concept, to have art, sort of went with it and songs. So it's all a lucky unified thing. And I don't,

6:20you've muted yourself, Elon. This is it, right? This is as be the yeti disconnecting once again. If everyone is watching about Elon Lake, is there is? Yeah. We're on different mics now, right? Yeah, now you're on your Mac mic. How does that sound? Sounds very roomy. I think that's the phrase you used with me earlier. That's okay. We can just re, you might just have to reconnect. No, it should be all right now. There you go. That's better. Yeah. I think it's really, I've got no idea what we're talking about. So the intentionality behind you writing an album and then the idea that now that they're being grouped, they might live in different spaces. Oh, the microphone is there again. We're all on tenders. This is just keeping us on the edge

7:25of RC. We just want to know. We want to know the mindset of Elon. Do I even know? Can you hear me, okay? Yeah. You are on the Mac mic, but you're good. Earlier, that can be bad. I will try and restart as far as we're talking. Yeah. I wanted to, the third album of me more, have more direction to it, more intentional list. These are the songs I've got. You know, more order, but that may not have worked. You know, sometimes things do what they want, and you just have to go with it. I mean, that's fair. And it's part of that wrestling with the notion of those two ideas,

8:25right? Because you want to create an intentional album, you want to create an LP, and then the reality, is it, again, wrestling with that fantasy-less reality? I really don't care. If something else wants to happen, that's all right with me. I just have to notice that that's what's happening. Go with it instead of fighting it. That's my thinking anyway. That's fair. That's fair, man. I mean, I don't suppose you want to just put it in a folder for six months, leave it, and come back to it and see how you feel about it, dude. No. No. No. I feel like I want to get it done. Move on to something else. That's fair. To be honest. Yeah. I already think it's taken a bit too long. Although I was taking a leaf out of a friend of ours, Hydrofoto's book in that it's done when it's done. I'm not going to rush. But at the same time,

9:29yeah, a new set of songs would be nice now, I think, and a new approach, and do something different. We arrange a little bit, focus on different things, see what comes out of that. I mean, I had a very similar mindset when it came to the root at a very similar mindset. It'll take as long as it takes, and it gets to the stage where I just want to kind of get it out there. I just want to get it done just so I can be gone. I don't mind. I don't mind. I just take my time and then you think, no, I do want to move on. I want to get it done. I mean, I've just been in that album that I sent you last week in a similar vein. It could have a flow, and it could have an idea, it could work, and I'm sitting there, and I'm overthinking it, and I'm mixing and remixing, mastering and remastering, and then it just got to the stage where I'm just like,

10:33no, just call it done. I've got to call it done. Yeah. I think it's just the sister's second guessing. She used to go through a certain amount of phase, and then after a while, I think, no, this is no longer functional. It's not serving a purpose. It's not serving you. Yeah. Somebody agreed in the background. Is that Steve or Tina? Tina. Yeah, they are fighting right now to get on top of the boiler, because it's the highest point in the house, and so that's quite fun. Okay. Tell them they're catching up goats. I've tried, but Tina insists on wearing your horns, so that's fine. What was that? Let's move it across. What was you caught this today? I didn't manage to catch it until you actually told me about it. This beta testing from Sketch Audio. What's that all about?

11:40Yeah. Well, Ryan dropped a message in our, on our Discord, for the people who are already members and people who might want to jump in there and have a look. He's been updating a lot of his applications. We featured him on the show before and talked about things like the plugins that he's got. They're all tend to be you buy one and you get the iOS version, Mac version, and now Windows as well, I believe. So, is it nearing the final stages, I think, looking for people to help him in the beta testing stage? So, yeah, if you're interested in helping him do that, and try and out some plugins in the process, the links in our Discord. Yeah, you can register. Absolutely. Well, I'll do. If you're not part of the Discord community, you can follow that QR code. I'll also put a link in the description, as I'm saying this, and only half cover it

12:44you'll like today. But yeah, it's in there in the works in Progress channel. And yeah, by all means, go check it out. We've featured, like you said, we featured Ryan's scheduled audio, quite a few times on the show. Dr. Vibe being one of the one of the show. It's almost one of those. It could enter the drinking game, along with Valhalla Supermassive. Sorry, it's funny, eras. And yeah, it could be, there's a lot of fun to be had, whether it be on an iPad or on a Mac or now, apparently, on a Windows as well. So that's, they all good, they're fun, they're cheap, they're, they're, they give a lot of, there's a lot of, I don't say bang for your buck, because that's got, that's a cliché, but there's a lot there to play with. There's a lot of fun to be had. A good for introducing character to your sound, especially if you're like me,

13:46if somebody doesn't like, it sounds too clean and squeaky and fresh out the packet, you know, you can certainly give them a bit of character. It's got a lot of good saturation and distortion and, er, addition of sampling artifacts and stuff like that, like somebody old kit, is modeled some, some old bits of equipment and so on that, yeah, make things sound a little bit more characterful, shall we say. Absolutely. Well worth looking at the, the release versions, if you're not into beta testing, certainly recommend them. Absolutely. I can't, I couldn't say it better myself, there's a lot of fun to be had. I've had it, I suppose. Yeah, absolutely. So this week I wanted to bring to the table this idea of over-complication and similar to what I suppose in a, in a way to where you're at. You know, we've got the over-complication of the physical, the AW, sometimes the over-thinking

14:48and we're going back and forth when it comes to the mixes and stuff like that. So anyway, maybe the universe is smiling upon this show because you're currently where you're at, but I wanted to kind of bring this idea of the ways in which we over-complicate our workflow, our songs, our mixes, etc. Not to a past judgment, you know, it's no right or wrong, but just for the notion of being aware of it, I think there's that, there's that ongoing, there's an ongoing kind of running joke that I've got 17 bases in my DAWs, for example. There's a little close, too close to the truth sometimes. And yeah, sometimes I do have a number one, but I do remember since having that, I think that conversation was about, started about two years ago, because it was with marooned, I think yeah, it was because it was with marooned, so it must have been about two, two or three years ago now,

15:51but since then I have, is kept in the back of my brain about, you know, in what ways am I over-complicating things. So yeah, I just wanted to bring it to the table and of course I wanted to hear where you're at with things, you know, like, and what it is that you might be over-complicating, but I also want to hear from the chat. It's really important, because I love the idea that these discussions are community-based and we're kind of sharing our ideas together and gain that awareness, you know. It's what it's all about, you know. So, if I was to open up an iteration of Ableton on your computer, what would I see that would take me instantly to a space of, oh, that's complicated, he's done a lot there. I don't, I don't think my projects are particularly complicated. They are badly organised, you know, there's, I could tell it to them up a lot, you know, there

16:56are unused channels and instruments that I did try something where they didn't work out. I ended up using something else and I just haven't cleaned up, I haven't named everything, I haven't tied it up. And you just have to spend a bit of time working out what was being used and what wasn't being used and what was coming from where. So, you know, it's poor discipline. Now, I will probably spend some yarn about flow and not wanting to lose momentum and so on, but it is, you know, in all honesty, it is a bit of poor discipline. And also, not really doing the different sessions that I used to do. So, I used to do things like, I'd do a sound design session where I'm just literally just, you know, coming up with new patches, new effects, chains, things like that, things that I'm going to use later. And then I'll have a list of things that I'm going to try later on that maybe references them. And then I would do, you know, a session that's

17:59just housekeeping, tidy them things up, naming things, archiving, exporting, finished projects, and making sure all the audio files are included and so on, you know, packing things away and putting them in deep storage rather than having them sat on my, you know, local disk and stuff like that. There's a million things like that that I would probably do if I had more time and I used to, you know, chop them up into separate things. And I'd rotate what I was doing in the studio and sometimes it wasn't even music, sometimes it's all admin, you know, to do a releasing and artwork and stuff like that. It's gotten a bit less defined recently, I have to say, and a bit messy and I'm just fiddling around the music and I'm not doing any of the admin.

18:59So things have gotten a bit messy, especially, I mean, tracking, you know, 20 or something songs for an album, telling the state of them and the BPMs, the keys, you know, the state of completeness, you know, whether they're shortlisted or categorized things in a lot of different ways. And I'm even a little bit behind with that kind of admin and that's important because that's how you manage the leather tracks that are all being sort of produced in tandem, which I do like to do because it gives you the ability to chop from one to the other and you just work on whatever's, whatever's vibing at the time. So, but at the same time you need to sort of keep good notes otherwise you're gonna chase your own tail, waste some time and get in a mess. So yeah, my arrangements are a bit for mess. I do need to, once I get quite close to the end of it, a track, I have to start stripping

20:01out all the stuff that I didn't use and simplifying it and I do sometimes bounce things down a bit as well because I noticed that when I was preparing songs to play them live, there aren't really that many different types of sound in the arrangements. You know, the kind of components are usually similar. They'll be different, but the types of them are kind of similar. And I managed to summarize all of that into eight channels, eight stereo channels, you know, for playing live with a couple of things sitting on top, you know, for noodling around and performance. So it kind of made me think about writing and thinking, well, you know, you could subgroup your stuff and then that might help you, you know, get the mixed balance right, you know, but put all your pads together, your apps together, your leads together, bases, I say bases, I never use more than one base. If I do use more than one

21:07base, it's not on the same part. So they're like two melodies into, into stressing with each other? No, they play different sections of the song, like the bass sound may change, and then they would be on separate channels and they'd want to take over from the other, but I don't ever, with a couple of exceptions, have more than one base at once because I find the clarity and the distinction is easier to get when there's a single one. I know all the arguments for using multiples and letting them do different things and stacking them, but I find there's just something about it that they're never quiet as in sync or even if they are in sync, they're sort of beating against each other and causing, you know, tonality changes that aren't necessarily intended and so on. If I wanted to sound a certain way, just one base works better for me. I think it's fair. I mean, you look at any other genre, you tend to only have a single base. You don't tend to have three or

22:13four bases on the stage. There's only one flea, for example. Yeah, the most I've seen is three three bass players on a stage. I can't remember when that was now. It's cool. That's what you need. That's what you want. It's good for that. I'm happy for you. I'm open to it. I have to have a thing catch it. It's one of the tracks that I sent you last week where it's a really nice, it's a really nice solid base and then the last note is lower and so it kind of pulsates more. I can't remember if I removed one of, I could have two bases and I can't remember if I removed one or not to remove, because I'd like the thick sub sound. I can't remember. I can't have to play around. Yeah. I might get away with that sometimes with just adding literally sub frequencies to something that I know they're not going to interfere with each other

23:13because they're an octave apart or something. I don't have a problem with that per se. But I was just looking at Simon and I was coming in the chat and he's talking about how it's going too deep on composition and arranging stuff before the essence of what I'm writing is sketched out, which leads to evolutions in the song with every iteration. I find problems like that as well. For me, I need to fully flesh out an idea before I start working on something else and sometimes I can end up just, you know, I mustn't get too involved in detail initially, you know, it's sort of working top down and making sure that an idea is long enough and has enough variance in it before moving on. Otherwise, you just end up with a full bar loop that drives you nuts and it eats itself. Yeah, that's true. I mean, you have to, yeah, I mean, it's a

24:16common trap to fall into, right? You can go into a flow state in a certain session and you can get a great idea and just kind of run through it and then that may or may not be a different, that may be a different place to where you started with it and then fusing those two ideas together can be quite a complicated kind of process. I think that can sound unnatural like you have just stuck two separate sections together. They didn't necessarily flow. Yeah, I like to try and explore an idea fully before moving on so that, you know, it's more, yeah, there's more to it, there's more fully formed. I think I think it's to get stuck in a loop. Yeah, and in the same way that you have set times for like admin, for example, or sound design or artwork or something like that, I'll have sessions on structure and I'll just, the entire session will be, okay, these are

25:21the loops that I've got. I want them to come in here here and then literally you could go, I could do a marker for every, it starts with every, usually every 16 bars and then you know, that goes down, down, down, down, down and then you know, my projects are just, if you zoom out, they're just markers across the whole planet, you know, and simple, I found it to completely change the way, like with ebslows and solos, for example, ebslows and solos is very just kind of a section B section, C section, D section kind of flowing into each other without having a kind of congruent finish, so to speak, but it was at that point, I realised that, you know, you've got to structure these things, you've got to give them time to do that. And you've got to, and that's the point to be decisive, right? That's the time to be, you know, I'm one of those people, I've got lots of ideas, not none of them particularly good most of the time, but my point is that I make it, if I'm in

26:25that session, I'm in that structuring and I go, okay, I'm going to do this and make a mental or even a physical note of that and then I can't deviate from that point onwards, as much as I'd like to, I try to, try to not at that point. Yeah, I sometimes just, Nika, I just put a structure on there before the music and write to that instead. I'll see you write it before you've actually put the music live and use that. If I start, you know, getting a bit of stuck with things like that, I might just go right, well, I would allow a little pre-bridge bit here, you know, you can have four bars to transition if you want, but it's going to be something here, the next bit starts here, the next bit starts here. Yeah, but I'm trying to make my ideas longer and the music more linear, rather than stacking things quite as high as I used to, it used to be like a musical

27:26jenga. Well, it's just kind of, it kind of folds out, essentially. Yeah, everything was a new part, you know, it wasn't like, you know, a change to an existing part. I mean, there were some, but you know, statistically speaking, there was a lot more just stuff that only played on certain sections. I get that. Well, that, I mean, that brings up a really, that brings up a natural segue to an interesting point when it comes to over-complication. Layers, like, I think me and you are cut from the same cloth in that regard, the idea of maximizing and having these, having these pieces that just kind of go from one thing and just keep on expanding, expanding, expanding, and everything is a new part. I have come to acknowledge, and it's been a, it's been a big, it's been a big thing for me recently that I can, especially in the mids, I can absolutely overcook my mid range

28:27by just thinking that, oh, I could, I think what I'm needing is a thickening agent, and I think what I need is something to just kind of envelop it a little bit. I don't, I don't, I need, I need, I might need texture, I might need a little piece of texture, but I don't need another piece to kind of bring it through. I can play, and I can automate, and I can bring something up, and I can do something more. I don't necessarily have to have a new little thing bouncing in the background. You know what I mean, does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And sometimes you need a bit of space. It's got to be some contrast. You'll take the base out of you, remember? You have to put it back in there, and then you put it back in there again. Yeah, yeah, if it gets boring, it's probably because you haven't taken the base out and put it back in again for a while. I went to, just as a bit of a tangent, I went to Azora, came to Prague at the weekend.

29:31Oh wow. Yeah, they had a one night in Prague, obviously, obviously I went, and I was there all night, and it was, it was, especially some of the earlier DJs, it was very much, you know, you've got, you've got 16 bars of growth, you've got 16 bars of melody, you've got 16 bars of something, or some sort of riser, then the base comes out, and back in, and it was like that, and yeah, it do be like that sometimes. And every track just falls apart in the middle, until some psychedelic swirling mush that gradually builds up and up, and into a riser, and very basic drums again. And we're off. Absolutely, an awfully good fun. It is awfully good fun. I feel like there would be a good opportunity to look at the development of cytrance over the years from the early days up until now, and you can see

30:33how the production has changed. Maybe a little bit too niche, even for this niche channel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sure we could have some fun with it. Yeah, I mean, that's some, a lot of music does similar things, and I find when it doesn't work is when the frequency of what you're doing is not enough. You need to get people invested in between as well. There's got to be some interest there. And sometimes it's just a little too fast. Coming back to reality, so that we don't just go on a cytrance trip for too long. Smiley O's, I'm a bigger fan of contrast than I am of layering up to thicken. So is that like, are we talking like counter melodies? Smiley O's, in what way are you creating contrast? And what do you do here? I do too much at the same things, essentially. Often it's like rhythm versus sustain.

31:36You know, so introductions, things you might consider to be verses or asexions are all quite passive and rhythmical. And then things that you might consider to be that choruses or pre-choruses or something like that or B sections or C sections tend to be more sustained. So, um, tension and release is supposed to be one of them that I'm trying to use at times or where things will build up and then something gratifying happens. It's not necessarily always like a drop in a traditional sense, but it's, you know, something that's quite bitty turning into something that is quite sustained and, you know, melodic perhaps. So yeah, so rhythm and percussive sounds turning into more sustained melodic harmonic sounds and drifting between those. And volumes and spaces I do sometimes, you know,

32:43some of the elements are obviously a lot more ambient than others. Some of them are quite dry and quite upfront. So, you can mess around with that a little bit where things are quite immediate and right in the speakers. And then they're not things dissipate a bit. It depends, really. How about you? Um, I'm hyperfixated on layers, I think. And I think the, I think that comes from my lack of musicianship more than anything. I think that kind of, you know, I can, I can keep an up going forever. You know, then I can double time that up. I am trying to create more contrast and I'm trying to create, um, I'm trying to create some sort of, not question and answer, but I am trying to create some sort of, um, idea where the instruments are not just with each other,

33:45but they're almost having a conversation with each other in that regard. I'm trying to bring that all these days. Call and response a bit. Yeah. So, there's a dialogue in the music. Yeah, I mean, that will make sense. And it's all quite classical ways of doing things. I've been, I've actually been looking at Sonata for me in classical music and trying to apply that to electronic music. So, you get three sections, ABC. The first one is exposition, where you get your idea. The second one is development. And then you get recapitulation at the end where the original idea comes back again, but in a slightly different and more developed form. Because I found I was doing the same things a lot and the structures of my songs are a bit samey and I just wanted to do something different. So, I've been looking at that other, other forms of structure and composition, just do something different, shake it up. I like the sound of that. I like the sound of that.

34:47That sounds like a decent way in which to go. I can see now why you want to get the album finished, so you can just kind of go into that. Yeah, and it means I can sound like I know what I'm doing when really it is certain amount of jerking stuff at a wall and seeing what it sticks. Which is absolutely fine. I mean, what's that guy? Jackson, what's his name? Jackson Pollock? That's literally how he was, that's literally what he did, right? Yeah, that's hot. That's fine. We're dropping it on the floor. Yeah, exactly. Let's get Lars in. Lars is here. He's there and I can see him sitting there. I just need a big, he's sipping or huffing on something, but that's okay. We're going to bring him in. I'm going to see where he's at. There we go. How are you doing, Lars? Uh-oh. We're pressing. I'm good. How are you guys doing? Yeah, pretty good. Pretty good sometimes.

35:52Even better for seeing your face. What's going on in your studios? You've got a new single out, uh, I don't even know. Yes, it's kind of new. It's, uh, remember when we, uh, the sample challenges, we did the same sample. And I gave you something that was like, oh, yeah, mostly listenable. Oh, yeah, I just went ahead and put that out on. I'm a, uh, lucky guy. It was. Oh, so I have heard it. Did you heard the stuff, mate? Yeah, I heard it at the time. Um, yeah. Remember when you posted it, I thought, the cover looks fantastic, right? Oh, my god, I can't listen to it. No, I didn't realize I'd already heard it. That's great. We were going to close the show today by playing it through. It's up on bank camp. Um, awesome. So we were going to close, um, by listening to it. So it's

36:55wonderful that you're here, Lars. Thank you for taking the time to come and see us. Absolutely within the context as well as four frames per second. Well, I left a note. I'm going to have to talk about it a bit before we listen to it. Hmm, we will, we'll get there. Um, Lars, um, before we get to, before we get to that, I thought I wonder if it's the wafer. I wonder if it's the wafer. What, why, while you're doing that, Lars, is there anything in your studio that you are, uh, uh, often finding you overcomplicate things or do you manage to kind of stay away from that kind of word? Are you in the net? We're, we're talking about overcomplication and we're talking about

37:56overthinking in the studio. Is this something that you have, uh, you have on you? Or is it something you've managed to bypass quite cleanly? Um, sometimes, yeah. I mean, I think everybody has that tendency where it's like, you know, maybe you like the way it sounds, maybe you don't, but either way, there's always that nagging feeling. It's like, it needs more and it needs something else, right? And I think before a lot of people is just like, telling that voice, like, stop telling, add stuff, it actually sounds good. And if I add something else, it's just going to sound worse. Where does that voice for you? Where does that voice come from? Um, probably some combination of imposter syndrome and, uh, insecurity.

38:58Yeah, so a negative place. Yeah, mostly, I think where I always question myself though, we were talking about earlier, Eon is, uh, arrangement, right? I never really think too much about the arrangement of a trap before I start working on it. It always, it's always something that come on in the process. Like, you lay down your two or three little, like main parts that you want. And then you end up with just a 16 bar loop for a little while. So you got to think, how do I, how do I jazz this up? How do I add new stuff to it without it sounding just crowded and overwhelmed? Or one of the things that, one of my breakthrough moments was realizing, you don't have to add something all the time. Sometimes you actually just need to take something out instead. If you have that voice telling you

40:00that something, maybe just sit and see what happens. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, how, how has that been going for you guys? Um, I mean, I finally had some time to like sit down and work on music. And I think it went a lot better. I think a lot of, uh, a lot of the stuff that I've like made recently, I personally see like stars. It's a little more thin. So, and then maybe I need to swing the pendulum the other way and start adding more stuff to, you know, yeah. Sure. I think I mean, I, I am, I am very much assessment to someone who is just like, eh, one more, one more layer. Why not? You know, all that, you know, those 16s hats need something in the middle of them. Um, just, just one more, you know, just don't have to use it all. I mean, I, I, I think I'm totally

41:01maximalist when I'm generating ideas and just record everything as many things as you can absolutely think of using. But with the sure and certain knowledge that half of them are going, you know, they're not all going to play at the same time. Some of them may not get used. It's just trying to dump anything that occurs to you so that you can then decide on whether it's worth using, whether it's worth exploring, changing, developing or just cutting out completely. Missions. Uh, smiley areas is a really good point actually. Um, if a, if a person lacked that voice, they'd stop the while the song was still terrible. It's needed. We just need a way to gag it after it's done that bit. It continues by saying that voice is us knowing it isn't as good as we want it to be. So that's, I mean, that's interesting. Yeah. But also it doesn't mean that that guy's right. So does his voice saying, you know, you need to add something he's found might mean,

42:03you know, actually you need to take something away. So the voice is probably just saying that something needs to change. It's not quite there yet. It doesn't mean that voice knows what that thing is necessarily. You might still need to experiment a bit and see what changes you actually like best, whether it's modifying what's already there, taking things out, adding things. Sometimes you've got to try some different stuff and not, you know, jump to conclusions. If you see what I mean, I mean, uh, controls Ed is a thing, right? It's like you can remove something or you can make a change and you can, you can then go back and try something different. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, try stuff out, see what works. But yeah. Yeah. I think you can get stuck in doing the same thing each time. I think it's the problem. You know, your fix is tend to repeat themselves if you're not careful. We want to stay in your comfort zone as well,

43:06usually, especially when it comes to our creativity, you know, where we want to be safe and we want to be um, you know, we don't want to, we like to do what we want. It's meant to be playful and joyous. I mean, familiarity is nice to us. But it's good to, like you say, to reflect on that and uh, not necessarily, we can overcomplicate things and we can overthink things by trying to do the same thing over and over but then making that sound different, if that makes sense. Yeah. And we've got, okay, I'll add this because that means I didn't do it. I didn't do this last time. So I'll add this this time. Therefore, it's a different, different workflow. It's an evolved creative workflow. Um, in, well, in reality, you're just making things sound more messy. Yeah. And I think there's a psychological thing as well because it's easy to hide behind a lot of sounds. And you know, it's, it's easy to, there's a tendency to think that more parts of more

44:07complexity and an arrangement or a project make it better. But sometimes, you know, it's about making sure that nothing gets in the way of a good idea rather than having enough good ideas all together. So all things get in the way of a good idea. Well, I mean, if you've got ornamentation and additional parts that don't really serve a purpose, so often when I'm arranging and mixing in the latest stages of a project, it's about, it's about chopping out stuff that doesn't really justify its place that is taking up room without really providing much. And that way it can get in the way of other things, other parts that actually have some sort of effect on the whole and you know, a worth keeping for some reason or another because it's, you know, because it's part of either the musical sense of it or the rhythmical sense or the, you know, textural, you know,

45:11there could be a many reasons why you might want a part to be in there. But it is easy to generate more than you need and have stuff in there that's not really doing that much. And it's taking up space, right? And I think sometimes you need a bit of experience before you can dare to sort of step back let something be simple. There's a lot easier to slap a load of other stuff on it to make it sound more, I don't know, professional or proper or I don't know, developed. But to actually have the balls to just have a simple idea and let it stand on its own. Well, I mean, just as you say that, again, smiley areas. I think more electronic musicians would benefit from learning to write a song with one instrument. Yeah, cool. And it teaches them something many myths about how little is needed to carry a song. Yeah, yeah, although I think with real instruments and this is something I've

46:13been fighting a little bit, you know, there's variants in the way that you play an intonation, you know, particularly acoustic instruments, but you know, some electric instruments as well. You can get such variation playing something very, very basic that, you know, you try and just do that on a synth with a sequence and it just isn't going to work because there's just not the same articulation in the notes. I wasn't trying to do things that, you know, taking real music and translating it to a groove and chucking the groove pool and then applying that to electronic instruments and using envelope followers to take the envelope of a sound, you know, that's real and apply it to something that's not real. To make it sound different and more percussive and, you know, less just like a drone out of a box, you know, to try and get to someone that variation that you would give. You were just chugging on a guitar chord.

47:18You know, you can get a lot of variants with quite simple parts just by the way that you've the way that they're played, you know, trying to get some of that into my music. We do rely more on them. Yeah, we can rely more on texture. Does that, does that speak to you at all loves? Is that similar to experiences that you've had? So when it comes to like, I don't play a whole bunch of like just normal instruments, you know, guitar and bass and stuff like that. I used to use those a lot more and I know exactly what he's talking about where it's just, you can get slightly different, certainly, right? It'll cause like a little variation to it. I think that's a big problem I have with doing everything inside the box at this point is just you end up with stuff that's like it doesn't

48:20have a whole lot of variation. And you have to go back and like manually kind of add those little like players and variations, you know, because it exists naturally for a lot of electronic instruments. But I've recently I've been trying to pardon me. I've been trying to do a lot more like out of the box kind of stuff. I actually find myself using my iPad a lot for making using it now. Just plug it like straight into the computer, run it into your door or just run it through an obscene amount of pedals just to see what happens kind of thing, you know. And I feel like when you have more knobs and you can easily inject like variation and stuff just kind of on the fly without even thinking about it. And you know, just kind of what do you call it? These days, like almost like the stream of this, creating music kind of like I've been enjoying that a

49:20lot. Yeah. Yeah, using your ears as opposed to using your eyes in the in a sense as well. Yeah, I think I think we can be predisposed to going back and automating and changing parameters on a DAW. It doesn't quite have the same effect as say plugging something in and then cranking the distortion to 12 and seeing what happens. Yeah, recording a performance of some kind where you're using controllers or something to get some articulation into the sound. It allows you to do simpler things if you could make it less static in the way that it sounds. So, you know, that's why I'm trying to do it so that hopefully I can write longer parts to have more articulation in them that do more. And yeah, it would allow me to do things that are a bit simpler, a bit more open, with a bit more space in them. That sort of thing. Do you guys ever, when you're talking, when you're doing your

50:27sound design, when you're mixing, is there anything in particular that you find that you get into the weeds about very easily, very quickly and tend to, again, overcomplicate that process before it's necessary? For me, it's more in the middle. When I've got some ideas already made and it's like, do I continue just generating ideas or do I start, you know, beating this into shape? The last section, I kind of tend to mix as I go to the last section to come, once I'm past the hump and the thing, you know, there's a structure and I know what it's going to do. Then that's the home straight and that's that's quite quick. The bit, the difficult bit for me is always in the middle. After I've created something that is a starting point and before I've got something that is an arrangement or, you know, a structure or a shape, about you, Lars.

51:35Base, base is where I always struggle for some reason. It's, and it's one of those things, it's like, I'll come up with like, base parts and stuff, but when it comes to the mixing, that's when it's like, just wanting to come in. For a lot of my recent stuff, I've done my best to just ignore a lot of low end and base kind of issues, but whenever I go back, I want like a problem that kind of like be and an actual baseline to go with it, makes it together. It's always a point where I, because I just will not stop tweaking it. Like, I'm like, no, I want it to really think. So I want it to like, I want it to hurt a little, but maybe I want it to be a little distorted. Like, oh, I think at one point spent, I spent three hours just trying to like side-chay kick and a base like in a way that I, it was just perfect. And ever since then, I just like,

52:42I'm not going to mess with this right now. I feel that. Learning when to just be done, learning when just to be done, that is, it's a tough one, right? And that comes from experience as well, right? Which, that's the paradox, because as we get more experience of what we do, we become more highly self-critical and compare ourselves to what we've done before. And yeah, it's a minefield, the idea of just leaving something alone. You know, I've notched it enough. That's, that's got a comb filter. What more do you want, you know? Yeah, I mean, it depends how you do your work. I mean, it sounds to me like you're creating sounds that already sort of fit together to a certain extent. I mean, it's Mike in the chat, it's talking about bouncing things out way too early, but I don't know. Is that even possible?

53:44I like to bounce things out at the end of every session so that I can listen to them outside the studio and decide what happens next. And feel, you know, that goes into my, goes into my notes, you know, when I'm working on lots of different songs, and I need the audio for just to remind me of which one it is before they've got their proper names and so on. So I don't know, I always bounce things out. Why don't you, I would never use the final word. I thought that out. That's a, that's the self-fulfilling prophecy right there. Yeah, never use the word final, whether you're mixing mastering or making artwork or ever. Final, and I really mean it at this time. Yeah, cross my heart and hope today. Really final. I have, I've had to, similar to, similar to Smiley areas, it just goes final A, final B, final C.

54:46After, I just, yeah, it's a bad omen for me, and as soon as I put something in final, now it's just claiming it's pre-master, master, and that's, that's all it can be. Otherwise, it would just go forever. I just call them mix one, mix two, mix three, mix one, master one, master two, master three. The one is the one with the highest number. The one is the one with the highest number. I like that. I like that. Yeah, if you want to know which one's the right one, it's the one with the highest. It's the one that doesn't have one on it. Because if I do another one, and it's, it's no good, or it's not as good as the one before, I'll just delete it, and then, you know, the one with the highest number is the one. I mean, that's fair. The, nothing wrong with bouncing out ahead of time. Nothing wrong with bouncing out. I, I'd say again, FCC does it as well, and I know that you do it on, I've tried to do it more and more

55:47as time has gone on. Just, I don't think I do it every session, mainly because I'm usually sleepy. But when it gets to that stage, like when it, when you get to, like, kind of, putting all your tracks together, like, you've got to start just bouncing them out and seeing what's up. I'm making tweaks and checking on different headphones and stuff like that. You have to. Yeah, and sometimes I find myself out and I don't have the, I don't have the studio with me. Yeah, so if I've got a rough mix, I can drop that into a sampler or something, you know, just so that I've a reference, and I can write other parts to it on, I don't know, able to know, or put a move or something like that, or literally on a sampler or groove box or something, anything that can play back a four bar loop or whatever, it does, it doesn't have to be the whole song, which just gives me a reference so that I can carry on making up bits and writing parts, and then I can add them when I'm next in the studio. So having a rough mix of the latest date of

56:54each song, I find really helpful. Yeah, and I think that's something that can be over-complicated. Yeah, it doesn't feel like complication to me. It feels like simplification. And if you're tracking your mix is more in more constantly and real time, you probably, a little maybe I could be projecting here, but it gives you a better notion of where the track is going to finish, right? Say it's a bit kind of death story and it's three quarters done, but the end of it is just not quite there yet, by bouncing it out and listening to it, you can kind of see how that is going to finish, and I'll give you a better idea and keep it in your brain. So you're not locked in to a session, and you've got to figure out a way, you've kind of, you've already got to a pathway before you get to the keys. Yeah, exactly that. So the next time I sit down, I already know what I'm doing. Yeah, I think, yeah, pre-sessions are always a good idea in that sense as well. I want to, I want to, I want to ask if there's anything that Lars happens to add to this,

58:04but I would, I am keen to get over to Lars' new track. Lars, is there anything else on this, or shall we just start talking about you and where you're at and what you're doing? So as much as I love to talk about me, I do have a follow-up question. So when you guys are talking about that kind of thing, like, so do you guys set up, like, save files in your DAW, where it's like, you have certain instruments already loaded stuff that you know you go to a lot, certain effects, or do you fit anything up like that, or do you just kind of open the DAW and be like, okay, start clicking. Yeah, both, both, yeah, I have a bunch of templates that are set up. I've saved media and audio channels, I've changed the defaults, I've added, like, you can't have an audio channel in my Aegeleton without it having a compressor and a limiter

59:06and a gate on it. I like it like a digital console. They're switched off, so they don't do anything unless you turn them on, but if you want to use it, we just switch them on and start turning knobs, as opposed to dragging things on. So I've got defaults states for a lot of plug-ins and channel types and so on, and I've got a few templates for overall sort of band layouts, you know, with a certain set of instruments in a certain order, you know, certain drum groove boxes or, you know, sample packs or whatever. Sometimes I don't use them, though. Sometimes I just, I used an empty default, which has only got synchronization stuff set up and doesn't have anything and I just drag whatever I want and sometimes I use a template that's empty. No, sometimes you use a template that's fully populated and just delete most of it. It depends. Because yeah, I want the convenience of stuff

1:00:13like that, without the negative aspect of it pushing me in one direction all the time. So, A, I use more than one, B, I don't always use them and C, I often change them. Okay. I don't know if that's helpful at all, either for me or anyone else. Well, it's your flow, right? It's your flow, yeah. I'm not even sure if it's a flow. You start out with a starting point and then you're like, okay, screw this whole starting point, I'm starting over again. Yeah, certainly, but I love that. Yeah, I love that. But if you started, then, you know, it served its purpose and you can happily throw it in a bin then. As long as you start. Very nice. I think there's a balance to be struck. I think, again, something for what Mike says. So Mike says, ah, I know that templates with instruments and audio tracks already set up with streamline things, but I also like a blank template. I think,

1:01:16I mean, obviously both, right? Why not both? But it's good to have a flow state and it's good to have a template or have a pre-determined kind of outline so that you know where you're going, but that does instantly put you in a box, right? That does instantly put you into a certain way of thinking, a certain way of flowing, a certain everything. And there is something beautiful, I mean, there's always something beautiful to be found with Ableton, but more than that, is the idea of when you start a fresh after a long time of using a template, suddenly, boom, you're no longer constrained by the notions of what you're doing. Like, I've got a template in my Ableton, which is rigged for my taskam 12. And so it's all there and so the instruments are already rooted in. So all I need to is turn on my synthesizer and it will go straight to Ableton and it's beautiful, yadda yadda yadda, right? Which is great. But then, for example, like, the move I've got is on channel one, right? It just happens to be on channel one. But then I open

1:02:21up a general audio tab and now suddenly that can be on anything it wants to be, which can completely change what you do with it in that notion. I can't tell if I can't tell if I'm, it froze on him making a face. And I don't know whether he's comfortable on that guy. I like it. I mean, I think I think you should have as much determinism or non-determinism as you feel like at the time. You've got to have intention though. You've got to have intention at the same time. Like, yeah, I mean, you might think, you know, you might find an empty project. It's just too empty, too many options. I don't know what to do. You might like to have a few things there that you can ignore. Yeah, sure. It's mean you have to use them. Yes, completely. I was coming from the space of, like, for example, I've got, I've got studio time booked out over, as in studio time. I'm here, but as in I've gone Friday night booked out to go, you know, I'm not socializing, screw that

1:03:26on a Friday night. I'm going to be alone with the cats making music, you know. But I've in the back in my head, I know exactly what I'm going to do in that session. So that's my kind of pre session. Is that I've already kind of lined everything up and I'll come in and I'll turn everything on, boot everything up about an hour beforehand, what I'm going to do now and just go and as soon as the time hits, I don't have to worry about making sure everything's charged and stuff like that. It's all ready to go. Yeah, I like that. Okay, so less of like a determined kind of environment and more like just some pre-planning, you know, you stage this, you stage that kind of thing. Yeah, set the stage the same way that you would set a set a stage, you set a stage, yeah. But like, I mean, I turn everything on, even if I don't use it in that session, it'll all be ready and route to go and be working just in case.

1:04:27I have, I've had the crave, I've had been messing around the barringer crave for the last kind of three or four months. I think I've used it in a session once, but it's always on, it's always on. Just in case. Do you feel like it's just not all that like versatile instrument? No, I think I'm not versatile or learned enough in it yet. I'm trying again, I'm trying to do more stuff with noise and I'm trying to do stuff that's a tonal. I'm trying, I'm really trying to go, kind of go down that route and just explore it and it's, I just, I, from the crave, I'm not getting much variation from static sound, which is fine, but I can do static sound elsewhere. I need to I haven't, I don't think I've sat down properly with it yet and properly kind of, I've been

1:05:28plugging stuff in because it's semi modular, right? Moving stuff around and twisting dials and stuff like that and yeah, I need to get a bit more, a bit more ingrated with that, I suppose. Stick it next to another thing that has patch points on it and cross patch them. Oh, now that, that is, that's a nice idea. Yeah, because sometimes those patch points are there so that you can add new things, external things in like more, more LFOs or something like that and sometimes just cross patching a few devices can give you a lot more variety in each of them than any one of them alone. I like the sound of that. Okay, all right, that is something I'm going to throw, not on Friday, but maybe next week. I've already got plans already. If all else fails, just plug it into a distortion pedal. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. If you haven't already.

1:06:29Absolutely. In the name of distortion noise, should we check out Lars' new single before we go? Yeah. That's true. Lars, before we press play, do you want to tell us about, I mean, you told us that it came from an Audi Nautics sample challenge. Is there, is there anything particular to your heart behind this mess, behind this song, is there a particular message, idea, workflow that spoke to you? So the main thing I was trying to get of this track, like, we did, is like, because the sample that Sun Warper Silver was very like, kind of like low five, vapor wavy kind of pep to me. And I'm still trying to rectify the genre of vapor wave with noise. Like, I wanted the two together somehow. And this is just kind of a step in that direction. Awesome. Okay. Well, that sounds like a beautiful thing. I am going to share my share of the screen.

1:07:35We have it here. And here's this one. Yes. Absolutely. Look at that. I'll work first and foremost. Is that your setup at home? No, that is, that's random. So I don't know if you've gone on YouTube lately, but there's these like mixes by like several different like YouTubers. I think they're using like AI or something to generate the images or whatever, but there's these, there's these long like three hour long, like dream core or weird core kind of ambient mixes. So with this, I was just grabbing a bunch of like those kind of related images and trying to put them together and something like hyper colorful and surreal. Nice. I like that. That's what you need. Beautiful. That's what it is. Very like kind of double exposure kind of vibe. Okay. Absolutely. Okay. Completely in coherent dreams. Two minutes and two seconds. Let's do this.

1:10:27I like to make things that are like algorithmic poison, you know, as I like to call it. Everything. Nice. Another t-shirt. We need some t-shirts, y'all. Algorithmic poison. I mean, there's something quite reminiscent of the dreams there, though, that the unwillingness of things to resolve the repetition. It sounds like my dreams, but some of these turn the delay pedal off and there's no fridge noise. I'm sure there'd be fridge noises. It was mine, but yeah, I've had a few nights. That feels pretty out to me sometimes. Yeah, that's kind of where it came from. I'm finally getting decent sleep

1:11:34again after you use it like spreads in my life, but it just reminds me of like all the dreams I'd have where it's like, you can't really sleep fully, your dreams aren't fully performing, and you have no idea what's going on, and you wake up in kind of a weird panic sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Being human, it's great. It reminded me of your release now, I'm back in 2021, no country for men, or no country for blank men. Yeah, it reminds me of, it feels like a continuation of that in a way, like you've got, as the desperation and the lack of sleep has gone on, it's become ever more static and kind of warps in that regard. It's beautiful. I really like the overarching surrealist movement in music and art right now, like everything's

1:12:38going back to hardcore kind of surrealism, who had known Artiste a lot of his stuff, like I kind of get inspiration from his stuff, which I believe is, I think it's just survey channel doing a vapor wave, you kind of think. Yeah, I get a lot of inspiration from like that kind of stuff, because it's just like, it's stuff that feels like it sounds like familiar, like you hear something familiar in there, but it's just like so warped and twisted that it's like, it's just barely there anymore. It feels like a commentary times or something. Yeah, Matt's always got something to say in that regard, he does it very well, whether he's playing a survey or is known Artiste. It's beautiful. And you've put that out on floppy, is that right? Lars, how many floppy's have you made? I made ten. Yeah, right here. We'll just put it, yeah, right there. Oh,

1:13:43face nice. Yeah, people just either they get it or they don't, there's a floppy disk, what? Why would you do that? Why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you? Yeah, why not, right? That's good. Thank you for sharing that, Lars. Thank you for putting that into the world. Yeah, I don't have a floppy disk player, but I'll have to get it on digital, because I mean, everything's good on digital. Oh, of course. So that's not the only thing you've got coming out, soonish now, is it? Oh, no, I had a little album with adventurous music a couple of weeks ago. That's the one I was thinking of. Is that out now then? Because I love the cover of that. Yeah, yeah, it was made with, let me grab it quick.

1:14:46With this guy right here, the Casio Porta Sound. Yeah, so I had that and I ran it into this iPad after I have called Skippo disk. I guess the whole intention behind the app was to simulate CD readers. You know, like if you have a scratch disk or something, you get a little like kind of sound. So it's at that and then a little reverb for tasty now, because reverb, what do we, what would we do without reverb? Yeah, but I have to drive. Nobody wants dry sounds. Come on, guys. That's one thing we agree on. That's cool. It's like a musical condiment. You just got to have it. Oh, the condiments. How was it working with adventurous music? I don't know which condiment is more killer over there for you guys, but we're very much catch up. It is definitely catch up or so for sure. What was it like working with adventurous music?

1:15:53Oh, I love those guys. Ro, the guy who runs it over there, like he's really great and they do, they're really consistent with their releases. Like they have like a packed schedule. Like that one wasn't actually even supposed to come out until like November, but he just so happened to have an opening one week, so I managed to get it earlier. All right. They're really great. They do, they also make a little like magazine too, which I've read the digital versions, but I haven't actually like ordered one. I'm always kind of, I really wish shipping would like get cheaper because this, it really sucks. It's like, oh, it's an awesome tape. And it's like, oh, it's only 10 bucks, but 2399 for shipping to the US. Like, come on guys. It's a difficult time for the dependent artist in that regard for sure. I don't think, yeah, we're not sure we're going to see a light at the end of the tunnel for a while in that regard. Well, you know, things are calming down, right? I haven't been paying

1:16:54cash in anything. I'm pretty sure things are calming down, right? Everything is fine. Everything's fine. Everything's fine. It's fine. It's fine. Anyway, think about it. You know, there's some sand there. Just put your head in it. It's fine. It's all good. Good stuff. Okay, let's say goodbye, shall we? Before we do, Eon Lake, have you got any plans for the week? Are you carrying with the album and giving your rest? What's going on? Oh, yeah. Yeah. What I'm going to do is I'm going to do the opposite of whatever I say to you now. Generally how it works week to week. Let's say what I'm going to do. I sit down to do it and do something else instead. Yeah, so I'm going to I'm going to not do the album this week. Nice. Thank you. How's that album going? Oh, I have a new EP now.

1:17:58Yeah, exactly. He's going to be written on five others at the same time. Excellent. How about you, Lars? I actually have another little thing that I'm going to try and work on this weekend if I have some time. Another one of my little hey, let me plug my iPad into the computer and then see what I can do with that kind of experiment. Yeah, that sounds like a fun experiment. Yeah, I'm trying to I'm trying to have fun instead of just sit down in the doll and like, oh, let me just bang out this. Let me just bang out this practice real quick. Amazing electronic music. Let's go. Let's go for it. Inspiration now. Absolutely. Awesome. Excellent. Well, I hope both of you do that and succeed in the business. What about you? What are you doing? You don't get away that easy. I know you're doing Friday. Yeah, I'm in the studio Friday. I've just after the show tonight,

1:19:03I'm sending everything out for distribution on this album that I've just finished. So I'll do that. And so Friday is anything can happen Friday, essentially. I'm not I'm not allowed to I have a rule that I'm not allowed to work on anything existing after I've just signed off on a project. I have to do something brand new. It's probably a testament to why I've got so many files. So I don't I don't know. I have to I have to have a blank template. I can't have the I can't have the template amusing. And I'm just yeah, I'm going to mess around. The album that I've finished on has been very draining in a in a in a good way, not necessarily in a bad way. So it's about having fun. It's about playing experimenting and trying weird stuff and making weird sounds like I've never made before. It's the right thing. Weird stuff for weird people. Exactly. That's what we do. We make weird sounds with weird people.

1:20:09On that note, thank you so much for being here. You could be anywhere in the world right now. You've chosen to spend your time with us and we really appreciate it. It's been great to hear and see what you've been up to and yeah, how you can find over complication in your workflow. We'll be back next week. And yeah, back at the normal time. We're not in wibbly wobbly time yet. I think we've got another couple of months. End of the month. Yeah, we've got end of the month. We'll be able to do it all the time. So we're going to have a conversation about that. But that's for the future audio-nautic to worry about. Thank you once again. Love you. Gone down to the Discord if you want to come and say hi during the week. Link is also in the description. And you can check us out on Patreon if you want to. Give a little bit of the show, keep the lights on. Not a necessity greatly appreciated. Yeah, see you next week. Lots of love. Take it easy. Anything else, guys? Not too old. Much wealth. Rises. Much.

1:21:12Damn. Much love to do so. We will see you. We will see you.