The Real Reason Strategy Fails with Stefan Cousquer - OrgDev Episode 98

Hi, welcome to the org dev podcast. So why do leadership teams say the future matters

then never make time for it? And even when they do make time for it, the research shows

these conversations are often the least effective ones they have. Dr. Stefan Kuzka has dedicated

extensive research to this critical issue. He has found that most leadership's teams don't have

a strategy problem, they have a time problem. Dr. Stefan is a professor, executive team coach,

an organizational development consultant working at the intersection of strategy, leadership

and sustainability. He is professor of strategy and leadership and OD consultant at the hot

international business school. He's highly experienced consultant with a background of senior

leadership roles in business such as Accenture and BP. He also works with executive education

programs in the areas of strategic leadership, sustainability, OD and collaborative innovation.

And in his consulting work, Stefan works with leadership teams in the areas of strategic

transformation, system change and top team effectiveness, which is fascinating areas.

Somehow he finds time to also be a non-executive director on purpose. And this is a non-profit

which develop leaders who can change the world through the work they do and the lives that they

lead. And we're actually honoured that Stefan has made time for some joined us today.

Stefan is actually based in Madrid and you're dialing in from from sunny Spain today, aren't you?

That is nice to be here. Thanks for inviting me. Well, welcome Stefan. We're so glad to have you join us.

We're really glad to have you with us and we've enjoyed looking at the work that you've done

and reading some of the research you've been doing. So we've got lots of questions and it's going

to be a really good conversation. So just to kick us off, can you just tell us a bit about the work

that you do, what's your current focus? Well, at some level, as a general perspective, I just do

enabling systems change it. But if I had a specialisation is supporting top teams, lead or enable

their own strategic change in their organisation. So I combine strategy and change on one hand with

executive team coaching and bring it together because I found that most of the things that enabled

constrained strategic change journeys is often how the leadership team work together. Not the

only thing, but it's a critical thing in the success of organisational change. And that generally

is either large corporates, whether it's a global financial services or bank or a large Scandinavian

manufacturing company, but also central government public service NATO. So I'm just basically on both

sides, the public and the private within kind of my consulting work. That's what I focus on. In my

spare time, as you say, I'm interested in, I also collaborate with York University on transformative

systems change, which is far more like a kind of regenerative practice and place-based

eco-centric work, often looking at how communities become more regenerative and the systems change

around that. So that's what I do in my day job. Fabulous. And I think one of the things when I was

reading your research that stood out was that one of the phrases you used, that he said,

strategies, what you talk about, not just what you decide. So I thought that was really

powerful. Can you just expand on that for a little bit for us and just unpacking the audience?

Yes. Well, I think it's one of those phrases that keeps following me around because it makes sense

from lots of different perspectives. So what I found was that as a strategy consultant back

when I was started by working, I found that most of the strategic questions that people should inquire

around within the organisation, at least for my point of view, were very difficult to find spaces

to talk about. And almost like the more important they were strategically, sometimes the harder it

was to find space to talk about it. And then I kind of, through studying and doing a master's

and organizational change and enter the world, are actually the stories we tell in the conversations

we have, shape the worlds that we create. And OD training, often was around, actually, we,

and the conversations we have enabled the organizational change that we would like to have.

And I think it's, and there's this kind of frame of organizations change one conversation at the time.

Helps take this dialogical OD and put it into practice. And so I spend most of my research and

practice work really focusing on where are these conversations happening and what's the quality of

those conversations and how do we enable more impactful conversations in critical areas?

And you use the three horizons framework in your word, which some people may not be,

they might have an idea or not have an idea. So can you just explain what that is and then

how you use it? Well, it started off with this global financial services company where they were

saying, we all aligned on the future vision, we're just too busy to deliver it. And so basically,

they had a vision, they had their short-term operating priorities, but they didn't really have a

pathway to connect the two. And that they had clarity on as a shared team. And so I'd done some

three horizons work with some other projects around systems change and brought it in as a

framework for them to really get clear on horizon one, one of my core concerns in my current way

of operating. Horizon three, which is my future aspirations for how I'd like the organization to

be operating in the future. And then horizon two is what are the critical initiatives

that form a pathway to take me towards that shared vision. And horizon two conversations are

really challenging because it's often around what enables these strategic initiatives to become

successful when we're in a really busy organization where lots of the time of resources are maintaining

the existing way of operating. And so just that's the three horizon frame, because from Bill

Sharp, it comes from, I think, originally the International Futures Forum and then they've got

a three horizon university. There's lots of wonderful podcasts and books and ridges on it,

but I've just found it a really helpful tool to link strategy and OD because it's not a linear

time tool. And it enables you to really see which conversations are happening well and which ones

the client needs help with. Yeah, and you took about using it as a mirror, don't you,

for holding out the mirror? That was a bit by accident. So we were with this financial services

French company working on the horizon two because they said there three was all fine. And what we

realized that the framework, the three lenses was a powerful mirror on how the team dynamics and

the team functioning was. So it was a bit by accident in a way. And we found that they had lots of

trust to work well in horizon one conversations and dashboards and information, but actually there

were lots of difficulties and relational tensions in horizon three and two that they weren't quite

able to have the conversation. And so it introduced this idea that actually we can have different

levels in trust in different horizons, that we can have different quality of conversations in

different horizons. And it provided a lens almost like an acupuncture point into where what was

enabling a constraining the team get aligned across all horizons. And how are they needed to

collaborate across all horizons or change how they were collaborating to have greater impact in

the organization. So it was almost like a mirror on the underlying power and relational dynamics

that were constraining the change they wanted to bring about. All lost to unpack there. And do you

see and which we will do I think as we go through the conversation and do you see a pattern in kind

of how much time top teams are spending in those three horizons is there looking at the research?

We picked up a research project afterwards to look into that question. So we worked with eight

executive teams and then checked our results with over 150 executives afterwards as a validation

exercise. And strangely the average is that executive teams, that's the top team of an organization,

would like to shift 30% or more of their time from horizon one to horizon two to three.

So there's a 30% time allocation shift required. That's in the research. When I worked with teams

it starts off at 30 and then actually they realized that they need to spend even more,

but actually it's quite frightening to think about that. And then the other thing that came out

in the research was that nearly all teams, most teams perceived themselves as being highly effective

in horizon one, less effective in horizon three. So that's not as below the kind of average

score and considerably less effective in horizon two. Horizon two other conversations around

what's enabling and constraining this strategic transformative initiative,

mobilize that pace or deliver that pace. And those conversations they really struggled to have

which was quite an eye opener for, it was a mirror effect for them, the client and for me as a

consultant. Yeah, it's seven, it's so fascinating and it's provoked a lot of discussion between

down in eye in the last few days because I think one of the things we really appreciate the way

you've explained the work and we really encourage people to read your papers is the precision you bring

to it. You know the fact that you know people can be very deliberate about when they're having certain

types of conversations. You mentioned about horizon two, you know that middle state between the

now and the and the future, it was like the messy middle. You talked about relational tensions.

What are some of those relational tensions that come up in horizon two that makes it such a tricky

and difficult time? Well, it can come up with examples. That's always the best. So one

client we've been working with for over two years now is that they're moving from a product

center to organisation where they're selling products to customers and with the rise of AI,

data enabled services, sustainability, etc. They're needing to shift that offering to which much

more of a service offering and they're targeting customers at a much more senior than not at the

procurement manufacturing level but at a much more of a sea switch senior leadership. And so in

that transformation product to services, there's a shift in power from not just the product

development area to marketing but also say almost from sales to marketing and strategy if that

makes sense. And so and there's a different type of sales person required to sell services

into senior leadership as to sell more engineering products into procurement or manufacturing.

And so that's a to that shift from product services in a ways becoming much more

customer-centric and a different customer. So there's always in these strategic change some

shift in power that is going on that is difficult to talk about and issues of is that purpose?

Is that really who will be coming? What are the capabilities we need in that new way of operating

in that new operating model? And if we start to take that lens, where do we allocate resource?

There's a big function over here and a little function over here and we need these new

capabilities and we recruit somebody from I don't know from Amazon and they come with their

marketing expertise and they go well why are we spending marketing on a product that we're

actually not growing that's been there for a while? Why don't we spend all our money on the new one?

And so at some level you can say well there's an LD approach which is we create all these

wonderful capabilities on transformation and strategy and change but at the heart of it when

you bring the real life case of the organization many of the key things that enable the transformation

in the organizational change come back down to and surprisingly the relational dynamics between

the team, the power dynamics, the being able to host a conversation around what that means for

me in my role, what that means for me in the team, am I an appropriate CEO for this new organization?

On all those dynamics are the underlying tensions that are below in the iceberg model that somehow

we need to create a space to help them with that's what I meant. Yeah well again it just shows you

why that horizon one is just so seductive to stay in isn't it? Yes it's so concrete and

you know you get into the domain of winners and losers and identity and all sorts of things as

well aren't you? Yes or perceived losers and also it's not just if you take individuals it's the

whole system which is what was one of the key findings both with clients and in the research

is that we tend to focus on individuals but it's also the strategy processes and organizational

performance management processes that keep the focus on horizon one. It's also the HR and

organization development processes because we promote people from big PNLs and the big PNLs are

traditionally the business model that we're transforming to the high risk new businesses

it's a lot harder to get promoted from that with smaller PNLs it's a risk. So how we reward and

promote and often it is a critical and enable of transformation and many cases in the research

were people that had been promoted one of the CEOs of a bank he'd been promoted from operations

he loved relational banking he was very comfortable in the relational banking operation space

he was less comfortable in kind of the bank as an increasingly an AI automated space

and he didn't have many of the technological capabilities or vision including the regulator but

many of his team were concerned about whether he was the right person to lead and those tensions

play out and it was only once he was able to talk about it and share with the team and have

the confidence that actually they started collaborating far better as a team and and and he was

able to navigate and lead the team so it well. Yeah and I think the other thing that was

caring to me as you were talking quite often when we're working with organizations or they're

thinking about transformation they'll bring in somebody external to lead the transformation

yes expecting that to be the kind of silver but the silver bridge that's gonna well we've

not been able to really kind of lock into the transformation we'll bring in somebody external

expecting that to be the thing that unlocks it but actually all of those systems and processes

and the kind of enabling constraints are still there it's just a different kind of actor so

and I think it's there are a few more extra dimensions to that is that if we knew exactly the

final end state and we want to implement a new SAP system then in some ways it's a more of a

linear approach and you can ask somebody in the function to deliver it and it was when it comes

to more strategic change or transfer or organizational transformation it requires the leadership team

to collaborate as a team on cross functional initiatives not just focus down on their individual

functions and that is an identity shift so you're not just ahead of cells you're ahead of cells

and playing a part of the organizational transformation and that's a really difficult shift and

it's a dynamic one because you need to keep learning and adapting and you need to the teams that

delivered the transformations really well in the research where the ones that built this team learning

dynamic team learning processes where they collectively learned about how they need to adapt their roles

and their responsibilities along the journey rather than just the point one person to really

deliver on one project. One of the things you talk about in the paper you shared with us is often the

go-to tool to try and build this capability or the you know the appetite to do it is the usual

suspects coaching maybe team away days those kind of things. What has your research and what has

your own field work actually shown you that it's sort of an accelerator of building that capability?

Well I guess the reason why traditional team coaching doesn't work is that it's largely a

structural problem as in it's many things that are maintaining and locking the team in

the temple trap of Horizon One. Now you could say with enough team coaching they could

gradually work on it but I think there's something really powerful if you can help the team see

very quickly how they are trapped in a structural problem and how they need to collaborate to

get out of it and I and often by splitting I'm just doing the team coaching on the relational side

away from the strategic organizational side you don't get the conversation between the two

so that's why I think actually it's really powerful to combine team coaching with organizational

transformation coach. One of the things we'd love you to bring to life is you talk about

there being six conditions for systems change are you able just to shed a little bit more light on

that in terms of what you know what those conditions need to be and and how organizations need to

approach it? Yeah I think you're referring to systems change models at waters or systems changes

that I'm pinched and used I think it comes from Senga and team. So what I found is that when

when using the three horizons to explore what's enabling constraining change you need to the horizons

we generally end up with a number of things that come out that fit quite nicely onto that model.

There's the kind of more structural pieces at the top which are around we've got a new policy or a

new strategy or a new process or a new reward system but that's all kind of inputting staff

into the existing operating system but many organizations are realizing that their existing

operating system doesn't work for the new world that's surviving or it doesn't work to enable

them in their transformation and they need to shift that operating system and then lots of the

enablers and constrainers on the things that release the potential for change tend to fall into

the three things in the bottom of the pyramid which is relational relationships and relational

dynamics often an organizational change will require new and different relationships often

outside the organization but also new relationships within the organization and so relationship

robustness and engagement on the journey is a critical enabler. The second piece is and is the

power getting really clear from a systems point of view and sometimes even doing simple things

like the drawing out the systems on a page collectively with different stakeholders allowed

the where is the power shifts where is the where do we need to redistribute power as the senior

team and help the power be redistributed to enable the innovation or the change so power is the

second one and then the last one is mental models and mental models is one of those overused words

but it's still really helpful to say what are some of our assumptions about how we can deliver

this change that need to be challenged and what are some of the ways that our counterparties and

I am perceiving this challenge that need to to be questioned and who can really provide a

fresh perspective on that and so how as a leader we host spaces for mental models shifts

is really important because it's often a participative non-efficient conversation and so

actually prioritising it is really important so that model is just a helpful model for senior

teams to work out what conversation am I trying to host and how do I design a conversation that

allows me to get into relationship power mental models or how do I design a conversation or host

to convene a conversation that is much more structural much more about policies and practices

and procedures. I was going to say we're just unpacking horizon to a bit more we've talked about

how difficult some of those conversations might be because they're talking about power and

identity and shifts how as OD practitioners can we help senior teams surface those tensions

that doesn't automatically trigger kind of defensiveness or kind of shut down because we're

treading on difficult territory aren't we with those teams what advice have you got for

practitioners kind of facing that and thinking okay how do I navigate this?

Well it sounds really simple but having a shared language talk about it is really important

because I think one of the if ever if your dominant culture is horizon one framed you need

another language to talk about horizon two in the street and then get helping them inquire

all my answers to your questions of what do I recommend this it comes back to dancing in a

system there is no magic bullet if I step back you need to start and develop a relationship with

the client start practicing small develop a shared language and then prototype and try others

and so that's the dance but some of the things on the dance that are helpful are get helping them

inquire into how do we yeah what are the sort of the what how do we host a good conversation of

an horizon two what do they see as some of the dynamics of relationships and power and trust

that are playing out here then to practice hosting it and then to reflect and learn well

was did that work well did that not work well how could we do it differently what are some of the

issues that maybe I can prepare beforehand that would make it work do we even have the right

participating and so for example I often quite use I'll get a leadership team to say well if you

want to explore this project who are some of your inquiry buddies in the whole project so get

them to find a buddy that provides a fresh perspective and then bring the buddy to the meeting

and I remember with the the banking project we were using some legacies play and the buddy for the

CEO wanted to you know I said well is the CEO on your model and he goes no so he goes off

and he finds a lion and a chicken and he puts the lion and the chicken on it and they see

over why why am I lying chicken because well in the bank you're like a lion but when the regulator

comes you're like a chicken and actually we're going if we're going to actually be proactive

and and and not just on the defense and invest in something which will allow us to really move forward

we need to turn that chicken into a bit more of a lion and that lion into a bit more of a chicken

now it sounds but the buddy and the perspective and the way that there was enough play and trust

allowed for some of the fundamental issues of relationships and power because you can see even in

that story you've got the relationship with the regulator and the CEO and the people in the

in the team and you've you've created a space where you can actually start to talk about it and

some of those interactions are the most transformational and you can't plan them or prepare them

they're emergent yeah it's fascinating isn't it because I we totally we you know after I think

this is episode 103 that we've record it so and I think definitely if we had to say one of the

mantras it depends doesn't it there is a dance in any system I guess one of the things I'm sort of

curious about is how do you contract and get informed consent to engage because this is seeing

your team like you like you to have their time is very precious isn't it and as you can't predict

what's going to happen and some of the feedback might be you know but we've got a paper for a CEO to

say I didn't see myself as a chicken and now I see it how do you get that consent and who do you

contract with to get to get that started to have those conversations um that's I would say an

ongoing challenge um and there's no simple way in I think all my clients have come through

slightly different routes in um I would say the most common route is that you're doing a sort of

senior leadership program of the C sweep minus one and you're in right the C sweep in and then

they build a relationship of trust the trust needs to come from some joint activity um and they need

to trust you on three things one you you know your stuff from a kind of business perspective

and strategic change perspective you know your stuff from a team coaching perspective and as a

human being they can trust you now how do you find the space to get that relationship you just

need a good excuse so that good excuse can come from leadership development program that they've

sponsored it can come from I've got a team coaching challenge and then you help them to say well

actually you've got quite a good trust in Horizon One how do we explore uh and but you've built

the trust in relationship between team coaching and sometimes it happens through one to one coaching

where you start as a one to one coach and then you move into team coaching so I don't think there's

one routine I think there's different routes in there's a chemistry between you and the senior team

you need a sponsor who's kind of CEO type level on the executive team and but I haven't found a

clear easy way in that I could say just do that I still struggle with it actually yeah no we

really appreciate this well because you know like I said every system's different a lot of people

that are that we're watching this will actually be internal as well so we'll have lots of people

who consults a lot of people turn is this the exclusive domain of an external because I'll only

kind of an external consultant come in and try and facilitate these kind of conversations or

or can it be done from there or is it a partnership it depends what we call it

so can internal consultants and heads of HR help leadership teams connect strategy and

organization development use the three horizon framework to do that and start coaching the team

leads strategic change then yes you can do it internally um is there an advantage to having an

external person doing it uh yes uh what's that advantage is that it's a lot easier for us to

name some of the power trust and purpose and issues um both because if we've got the credibility

of doing it in lots of other organizations I think the senior team hear it differently but also

if we say something and we get kicked out it's not the end of the world as much so I think I

I take more risks on an external but I also perceive executive teams listening to me different

if I walk in with an external hat on and I also think is that once you're out if you've got one

for outside the system you can see the power dynamics easier than when you're in the system

so there's something about it's if you're a fish in a fish bowl it's hard to see the power dynamics

as soon as you've got one for out the fish bowl it becomes a lot clearer um so

I don't think it's because um I'm different in any way I just think it's easy if you've got one

for out of the system to see what's going on I'm useless with my own family um it's a lot you know

it's a lot easier to spot everybody else's family don't I mean he meant to that

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get your feedback so Stephanie one of your papers you say that the biggest barrier to future making

is rarely strategic intelligence it's relational safety could you could you just expand on that a

little for us well if I think about one client team I have a member non-go intention between the

head of strategy that wanted to have some strategic decisions and serotypically the head of a

show saying actually we need to be able to have robust conversations and important dialogue

and there were both really right and but I guess the reason I we arrived at this conclusion that

came out in the paper was that when you ask what enabled or constrained the big strategic insights

and the big strategic shifts in the organization it often came down to suddenly taking a risk

on resting time in building a robust enough relationship to bring different points of use in

and leaders creating a safe enough space where different voices could be heard and we often think

that it's the same voices for Horizon 1, 2 and 3 but often they're very different voices

and we make lots of assumptions about I remember one organization they assumed the CFO because

he had a big motorbike he wasn't that interested in sustainability that's why he wasn't reporting

it in the KPIs or financing the projects but actually when they had the courage to have the

conversations and what sort of future do you really care about it and that's not an easy conversation

and an executive team to have and how would you like to leave this organization for your

children or for the future generations they suddenly realized that he was one of the most

passionate supporters he just didn't realize he could be or didn't think he had the capabilities to

or was worried he'd be have double standards because he couldn't live his life in a completely

sustainable way that he wanted to he was one of he wanted to be coherent but once that conversation

started to happen he was one of the best leaders in the group in driving profitable new sustainable

offerings and there's two threads I just want to pull out of that and the first one is the

often the senior leadership team is quite static isn't it is the usual suspects lined up

but like you said you have to be quite light-footed for some of these conversations so

do you find that many sort of teams are kind of sort of anchored in the traditional people to

have in there and it can be more difficult for them to be open to invite new members in or

often once you get into it then they are quite open um it's slightly more it goes back to three

horizons I'm a bit of a hammer with a nail in that they're very good at getting different

voices in in areas they're comfortable about like horizon one operations currently work to get

different voices in around the future when we explored in the research what what's getting

in the way of you hosting and collectively since making with people that really understand the

issues to governance on AI the practical future issues you need to address often it's I'm not

sure how do we do that and then make it practical how do we do that and then harvest the output so

that we can communicate to the organisation what that means for us and then take decisions around it

so that we realised that there was a practice and methodology in security and that what they'd

found is that they'd either to do that well and to host that well they needed some support

so that tradition was I either get a consultant to do it then I don't do it but if I need to do

I need some help to do which is where the OD consultancy comes in as long as the OD consultancy has

a depth of future's work and strategic foresight work to be able to facilitate it so I would say

the desire is there to do it I think it's mainly a capability issue and also that the existing

organisation squeezes the time out to do it well and so you need to it comes back to the

structural systems challenge but once they do it well and have the confidence then I think the

energy is released in the organisation by think about the organisations that have released the

most potential for change is that they big the leadership team loves in the end hosting highs

and three and highs and two type conversations and it because they realise that when you do it well

it releases so much energy in the organisation and in some ways it was they'd learnt it earlier

it's a strange thing I think we all stick to the conversations we're good at rather than

learning to do different conversations that we're less good at. So these patterns isn't it and

then just a second later as well as Paul Gritley was he said the term safe enough rather than safe

yes what's the what's the distinction between the two and why does that matter? Well one of my back

bears with psychological safety is that if you're going to add any value you need to take a risk

and that mode to disclose new words new value new relationships new possibilities that takes

risk and therefore you don't want it safe because then if you're completely safe you're not taking

a risk that makes sense so we want to be able to develop a shared language where we can take a

risk together and to and challenge each other and to be scared together and that's okay and we'll

support each other through it which is not safe it's safe enough to take that risk most of the

important conversations in life are often fairly risky whether it's with your children your

partner your parents and it's the same will work. So one thing we always like to ask our guests is

how did you end up working in this this weird and wonderful field that is organisation development

what was your your path into it? It's one of those impossible questions isn't it because um

if I had to pick some moments that shaped me I would say one was when I started having children I was

at the same time that was on one of these fast track development paths and had some coaching and

I realised that I wasn't quite as emotionally and relationally intelligent as I thought I was

or life was a lot harder than I thought it needed to be I got recommended by my wife to go and

do an integral coaching course and I left it and it and it not just because it gave me coaching

conversation capabilities but I think it it helped me understand a lot more kind of philosophically

what's going on in the world and I could that for me was a individual development in some ways is

the same as organisation or societal development and seeing the links between the three and seeing how

emotional relational spiritual cognitive all play in that was a seed that continues to unfold

I would say I also did a masters in sustainability at Ashrich which was an introduction to kind

of enabling systems change and I think that's another seed that continues to unfold and then I would

say my experience in BP trying to bring transformation within an oil and gas company which has

very different world views and I realised then that most of the strategic conversations came

down to the spaces that we can host difficult conversations and the power dynamics and I realised

that I had very little training or support all colleagues to work with and it was at a time I

think where my third child was born and I spent a week in Ashrich Gardens and I decided to leave

a one world and and find a group of people which were in Ashrich that were actually bringing

OD strategy and sustainability together in a consultant practice so I say a week with some trees

and a baby was a critical moment and then maybe other ones is finding a tribe of people that you

can work with and learn from and look after each other and take risks together as so yeah so I

guess my practice is just a reflection of a load of relationships and Ashrich as a place to study

Holtz now what's that like as an in learning environment what is it what is it specialising?

Well I think Ashrich has gone to quite a journey I would say the reason I went there is it has a

history in taking hours and enabling systems or living systems approach to coaching to

organisation development to systems change as well as being in an executive education offering

and so I guess it's a it's a place where you can study masters and get accredited and etc but it

also has a consulting OD practice as well as it's executive education practice but when you first

ask the question I remember when I first became an employee I was speaking to a participant looking

at the garden from China and I said well why have you come all the way to Ashrich and expecting to

have a kind of living systems type of response and he said the garden and when I ask most

participants go they think they like the most is that is walking in the garden or being in nature

but I think it's it comes back to time I think people have a different relationship with time

when they're Ashrich there's the history of the place and I think a chance to to look at how

they're leading from the perspective of nature's time their life's time and what they really care

about in the time that's left I think is a key enabler of change so I would say Ashrich is many

things to many different people what aspects of your work do you find most fulfilling or exciting and why

at a really simple level it's a kind of the bit that I enjoy the most is the people I work with are

the clients or colleagues because it's a reliving in a a time between worlds and actually having people

learning together and taking risks together and trying to with a shared kind of humanising leadership

type purpose I think is those relationships of what bring me a lot of joy I think the creativity

of trying new approaches finding new unique journeys with different clients that fit them the

creativity side with the client I really enjoy and it's an also the space to learn and the space

not to be to combine the scholarly not to busy way of being where I can think and reflect and

what do I really care about along with the practitioner being in organisations so I think I I would

struggle to go back to adjust delivery only practitioner only I quite like my scholarly practitioner

way of being and and so I need to find systems I can hang out where that's allowed

fabulous and then on the flip side watch if I'm most challenging about the work

I would say I regularly still get if the client's challenges acceleration often they get accelerated

and anxious I notice I have I can regularly fall into that accelerated anxiety so I would say

anxiety and acceleration is is a challenge that we have to contain for the clients will contain

for ourselves and and I often kind of fall off balance and have to rebalance this creating it

a slow enough way of being that this quality and care with the practical need to come along

side of the client meet their needs build the trust and so that balance I find really hard

I would say maybe going in at a different worlds so one of the values I bring is that I can

learn from different worlds and and share the learnings across different worlds but you have to

learn different languages different approaches and be humble and practical in those different worlds and

that's not always easy so finding the right language often I find challenging I would say there's

increasingly increasingly finding the spaces to do the grieving and gratitude type work the

soulful work the humanizing work so finding the getting the balance between the work you want to

support with and then the how that enables a certain amount of healing so it's the garden effect

you know even if you're working in a meeting in a boardroom how do you build a sense of being that

that people you want to have more of that helps them find the courage and find themselves creating

futures they care about that's often a how question not just a walk question and I find that's

how do I that's a challenge to keep bringing in so almost like the more it's needed the harder

you have to work to bring it in and I guess that's from many personally as well as for the client

are there any when you look at the field are there any particular emerging topics or trends that

are really interesting you're capturing your your attention at the moment well it's what

it's a combination of old and new is that makes sense because um so we're if we're in this

accelerating AI fragmenting world order ecological disruption let's all put pressure on

client organizations that and there's new stuff that's really interesting is how do you find

ways to engage people in futures when they're accelerated in the short term there's new stuff

around how do you develop more resilient operating models when people just want to shift the

what and not actually get clear how they want to operate and so then I would say the new bits

of practice combined with the same old OD stuff that you need to weave in like develop robust

relationships work out who your client is maintain us in self as instrument reflexivity in

service of the client build trust and so it's the conversation between traditional OD and new needs

that I think is the really interesting space how do you help an executive team build trust in a

post trust digital AI world so old competency of trust in our new competency of new world how do you

shift the practice how do you think about legitimacy in a team and now legitimacy in a institution

that where your employees don't trust hierarchy anymore all all I would say the what's the governance

process and how does the governance of an organization need to shift and the team practices need to

shift with this new world all of these things are really hard and it's what attracts me is how

you apply the core OD skills to those new challenges just want to put a moment to pull on a thread

there you talked about self as instrument and that's been a recurring theme that's come up during

the conversations and particularly in the work that you do because you know those those horizon

two conversations strategy is anxiety isn't it because you're making tough choices tough trade

offs you you're going to disappoint a lot of people with the choices that you make and that

self as instrument is so important isn't it because we always have to be mindful of what's

been projected on to us in terms of emotions others are feeling but we also have our own emotions

too and I guess one of the concerns that we have is that there's a lot of people coming into OD

which is great but they're not necessarily doing the self as instrument work human are that kind

of self awareness if if someone is sort of entering the work what what tips would you have for people

to sort of make sure that they've got that awareness or you know they feel resource enough to to

be in that place where those difficult conversations can happen. Three things first is do some program

that has some form of first person inquiry in or action based inquiry where you have to kind of

reflect on how you're what's going on for you inside right about it reflect about it with

others so we call that inquiry work there loads of programs where you can where that is kind of a

core part of the program so learning using self as instrument inquiry would be one two is work with

people that do it and that can call you out when you don't do it I'm I'm still a kind of block if

it gets too tough I block it like everybody else but it's nice if your buddy says you're doing it

again what was really going on and so you need to work with somebody who can call you out and help

you and then you even try and bring it in help the get the client coach you as you're doing it if

you can build the trust so have the confidence to bring it in but most of the wisdom comes from

from that it's just having the practice and it's not easy it's not like I've learned to ride

a bike that can ride a bike often it's really difficult work it's messy work so yeah I would say go

feel it go for it well I think it's really encouraging isn't it because someone who you know is

entering and looking at this and this Stefan so accomplished he's so experienced he's got all

the qualifications he's he's been up for but it is still you know all experience consultant still

have that they went out there and we're in that kind of moment where change is just happening

and there's a lot going on isn't there any particular time it it never ends the work does it

no and it never ends because it's maybe you get better at spotting your patterns again but that

doesn't mean your patterns don't go away if that makes sense so you just get better at accepting them

and working with them and maybe better at helping other people work with you so yeah so I think

it's just like it's a life thing it's an it's an ongoing practice but I guess as time goes on you

become you realize more more how important it is and those that do it and those that don't do it

and I think it's also a fundamental leadership practice not just a no-dee practice I often think

ODs when I did an MBA ages ago kind of we had a member accounting wasn't just for finances for all

leaders you know and then I was thinking well after as well coaching shouldn't just be for coaches

it should be for all leaders and when I joined Ashley I was thinking well this OD staff shouldn't

be just for OD practitioners it should be for all leaders so there's a part of me that kind of

goes OD is just good leadership stuff and and using self as inquiry for me is like the core of

good leadership for those listening on audio you probably can't hear that me and Danny are

just waiting nodding our heads profusely you're defining something so wonderfully that I think

people really need to hear and I think it'll encourage a lot of people weren't it Danny absolutely

if I was doing a kind of high potential evaluation I'll get ready for seeing the leadership

the number one skill for moving up into top leadership is using self as inquiry if I had to

just pick one when you look with a big question but hopefully distill it when you look back at

your career what are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned so far that you take forward

into the work that you do it is a big question um well in in no particular order I was thinking um

we've talked about the using self as inquiry in the fact that I fall off the bike of that

regularly and and try and get back on I would say another one was I often found OD didn't

overtly claim as expertise in strategy and connecting strategy to to organizational change

so so one of my big learnings was actually good OD is also being good at strategy or working

with people that so you can do strategy from an OD perspective and actually connecting strategy

and change is part of your OD practice is fundamental um connecting the what and the how um maybe

another one is that uh and that's me personally is that I got fascinated by time both how leaders

work with time and their relationship to time and what they create time for and what leaders care

about is also what time they create for certain types of conversations but it's the same at organizations

and a society I think we're in a in a time between worlds at the moment where the old way of operating

menu organizations doesn't fit the world we're living in and that a new way is not quite emerging

yet and so I think one of my learnings is is how time is a wonderful guide and a relationship to time

is a wonderful guide for OD practice or for myself and OD practitioners um maybe a third one is

is to to be robust around um who you work with and finding your tribe of people to work with

and defending working in pairs and also even just like uh your action learning set or supervision

to spot patterns often the most impactful interventions came from a robust conversation with a

colleague or supervisor that challenged my way of looking at things and how I was clueding or

not clueding in the system um so I guess my confidence in that developing your tribe and your

supervision and your uh container for your work in the systems is really important I think

anything else that I've learnt ah my my last one if I had to ask my I asked my one of my main

it clients the HR director of a global manufacturing company I was or be the one thing that I haven't

done so well I should do better and it seems to follow me around so it's it's not the first time I've

got the feedback um and so it is I don't always come alongside the client in in the way that they

would necessarily want and when I inquire as to why it's like I get so excited about where they

could be going that sometimes I underestimate um where they actually are how much support would

change they need to get going uh I tend to be in I want to clear I tend to be in a rush and maybe

don't accept where they actually are so I still need to um and yeah so I know cognitively that I

need to come alongside a client um but I keep bumping into the same learning journey even at 50

of really accepting where am I and where they and and what is a what's a good enough next step

that is so that I can accompany them well rather than running off a head that's brilliant wisdom

isn't it it's it's some of the conversations they're down and I constantly remind each other

and I love what you're saying there in terms of working in pests because we work in pairs

probably 90% at the time yeah and the client there will be two of you really why at the end of it they're

like oh because they're like it's a two-person job but it is though isn't it because there's so much

going on in this process there's content there's unexpected things happening there's the uncertainty

it's it's it's as much for um to keep keep it on the track as anything isn't it?

but well I would say most of the big shifts come from robustness of relationship

don't come from me being by on my own and so you almost need the processing in the relationship

either with the client or with your buddy to and it's that processing of it that the insight

comes out of if I did it on my own I wouldn't get it and and also to take a risk you need to be held

in relationship both with the client and your buddy um there's so there are 101 reasons why I'm just

getting excited and agreeing with you I think there's a book in here for this brilliant um you obviously

clearly you're extremely qualified and accomplished in your field but what do you do to keep learning

and evolving in your field you know are there any practices or habits that you found particularly

useful well I would say I I follow what I find myself caring about or have energy for

and I try and balance that with what am I fearful of the finish points the my shadow side

so I would say balancing shadow work with energy uh work and and trusting that those take you

to things that add value I would say there's about I think we're living in a accelerated knowledge

addicted world where we kind of searching for more resources and I and I I think

resources and knowledge are helpful but practice is probably more helpful and so I don't

necessarily do this well but I try and balance the rowering resources with walking in nature

with finding um friends to have conversations about how work with is going for walks with clients

and reflecting on our work um and so I would say finding tribe and finding practices and uh that

actually feel regenerative and learning for I'm balancing that with devouring more resources

and knowledge and and social media and books that's I would I recommend and then you're saying I

was my practice of developing myself well I I've been fairly I've gone on courses to courses

if that makes sense I did a master's and another master's and then a doctorate so I think there are

vehicles and a coach and courses so vehicles and containers for learning are helpful especially

if you're busy um but I guess I've balanced that with with learning through relationships finding

relationships where there's difference in different practices and then learning from each other

brilliant and just coming back to resources are there any particular books or podcasts that you'd

you'd encourage other people to to look at and read or watch well I guess I'm interested in what's

going on in the world so I find like an eight Hagen's type podcast that in that connects the different

crises and how they connected together and taking a whole system view so I would say my name

I would go big and then deep personal so I would say make sure you understand why we're in a time

between worlds and understand how a polycrythe crises are connected and why we have a

depth problem in economic problem ecological problem in our organization problem see the connections

between the things and then eight Hagen's type podcast can be helpful I would also say find crack

find podcasts that talk about individual practices um whether it's psychology or um and then and

books um that that are meaningful I would there's a certain amount of I like a certain amount of

philosophy and understanding not just psychology so I think we tend to always go to the psychology

and I would say with something that even like uh Rilke's letters um or um find your own way into

philosophy in a nice way which probably be helpful in this time reliving in um and then if I had

to pick resources that are an easy way into systems change I always end up recommending um

Kagen's books just because they're easy to understand or easier they point you to a field of work

and they take a whole system of view to practice um and then the OD networks whether it's OD in

Europe or OD in global there's lots of places to go for more I would say traditional OD

and one of the original missions of the podcast is to inspire the next generation of organization

development practitioners whether they're internal external you've talked about this being a

accelerated knowledge world that we're in as well like what what advice would you give someone who

is just getting started or is is wondering there has to be another way um well I got confused

early on I think thinking OD was a profession and a particular job uh and in some ways it is but

it's also just a way of thinking about change and it's uh um so I would say find the roles where

people are open to talking about change in a participative um human led way where you can have

conversations for change so often you can get the best OD roles don't come along with an OD tag

um and so my first advice would be find interesting roles where you can learn by doing

I would say there's some brilliant courses out there whether it's coaching or OD or systems change

or art or hosting or find your way into systems change in a way that's practical to your role

um and ask people who inspire you how they learn and uh so build your tribe I would probably say

but part of your question your question feels like making sense of the work time we're living in

because I think there's a OD 20 years ago feels different than OD now I think people are

much more many more people are realizing that the the world we're living in is changing

that many of the ways of looking at things are no longer work but there isn't a new way of

exactly how we do this so I would probably also say find your place-based community find what

gives you regenerative energy um Daniel Val's book on uh living systems and regenerative

coaches is a good introduction to regenerative systems change um so I would say don't necessarily

think OD is different from regenerative systems change uh connect the two and don't assume adults

and old people and podcasts have all the answers I think we need we need a conversational

cross-generations to address the time we're in um so I would encourage them and we I think we

need youngsters to help us navigate the next years we're going to work in in as OD practitioners

brilliant well Stefan I want to say huge thank you this has been such a brilliant conversation

you managed to combine expertise you know depth of knowledge field experience real

position to the work but also really wonderful humility as well which is a really nice combination

um Danny what are you taking away from the conversation it's hard to do justice in a few points but

I think I've really I've really enjoyed unpacking the three horizons model and you know reframing

that not as a planning tool but as a mirror and a lens that that teams can look at to think about

the conversations they're having the importance of shared language um also really enjoyed the idea

that we the importance of inviting others into conversations particularly around horizon two and

horizon three and being more open to that brilliant um digital all of those um I guess there was

something that you said in one of your papers that I just loved and I think that kind of sums up

which is your legacy is written in the conversations you create and I think that's like you know that

doing it with intention and mindfulness and the fact that you can assess an audit where your

team is and there's ways and means of doing it but you need to do the dance within that system to

make it bring it to life as well um Stefan it's been a really wonderful conversation

if you want to follow your work if you want to read your papers if you want to know more about

hope what's the best way for people to reach out to you I suppose on LinkedIn just send me an email

I'm not very good at getting web pages sorted out um so just uh connect on LinkedIn email

meaning that'd be happy to can respond and share work and one day I'll get a a web page out and

have a way of doing it properly uh but but please feel free to reach out right well thank you so

much um if you are watching this and you're one of the people in 109 different countries now

they're watching this podcast and you think do you know what I know someone that could really do

with um Stefan's insights then please feel free to share the podcast we have so many shares each

week for people that are sharing it to people in their network that can appreciate uh this insight

as well and also if you could hit the like button and subscribe um the more subscribers we have

the more people that really comments people like Stefan that'll say yes to coming on the podcast

as well but most of all we want to say huge thank you Stefan we know you're intensely busy

uh you make such brilliant time for us and also answer our questions in depth as well so thank you

thank you enjoy the conversation fabulous thank you

you