The Rarest Blue (with Dr. Baruch Sterman)

0:00Welcome to another episode of the Swarm Chatter Podcast. I'm Nachy Wainste, short programming note. This episode is kind of a bonus episode, if you will. There will be an episode later this week about the making of the Maherster, which is the German Royal Enrolated. But this episode is because a few weeks ago, I did an episode on Cholas and Atrelez with Rhmati Kohn, which will portray the anti-Murich side of Atrelez. And as I mentioned on that episode, I will try to do an episode on the Pro-Murich side. Which is this episode. This episode of the podcast is sponsored by KosherKlaft.com. One thing I appreciate about KosherKlaft.com is how easy they make playing stand. Whether you're looking for it's fill in, Ms. Zuzuz on my gill or even a safe hotel, they take the time to explain the options and see your questions and help you find this right for your needs and budget. To learn more, visit KosherKlaft.com. That's K-O-S-H-E-R-K-L-A-F.com or caller WhatsApp, 516-737-5436. They have pickup options in New York and New Jersey, as well as fast shipping across the country. Find the link in more information in the show notes below.

1:02To sponsor an episode or to support the podcast in any way in any amount, you can email me sfarmcheddarjimil.com or check out the link and information in the show notes below. You can also find a link in the show notes where you can subscribe to this farm cheddar WhatsApp community, where I post new sfarm, new books, book deals and more, as well as a link to the farm cheddar status if you prefer that way. Finally, if you can please subscribe to the podcast wherever you see, listen to podcasts and read and review the podcast with that joy of this episode. Hi everyone, welcome to another edition of the sfarm cheddar podcast. On this episode of the podcast, I'm going to be joined by Dr. Baruch Sturman, who is CEO and co-founder of Patil Trilet and the author of The Rare as Blue, the remarkable story of an ancient color lost a history and rediscovered, which he co-wrote with his wife, Judy Talilis Sturman. We'll be discussing, again, Trilis. Two weeks ago, I had on the podcast from Matikon and we discussed his new book, Trilis and Atrelez, which as for those that listened, can tell it was the time you're ex Trilis side. As I said on that episode, that it would perhaps be a good idea to discuss a pro-Mior ex

2:07Trilis, the other side of the story, if you will. He had a lot of feedback on that episode from everyone right to left, all different angles, all of the same size. In that sense, it did well and people enjoyed it. Figured it's a good idea to bring on Dr. Sturman as well as this book, as we'll get into a wonderful read. Was anyone looking for an interesting read? I was smoothing before with Atrelez Sturman and I mentioned there's blurbs in many books. A lot of the blurbs are not always accurate. It's sometimes they're trying to get like, oh, this person wrote about the book, he likes and whatever, but there's a quote from Jonathan Kirschin, the Jewish journal, which says, the rarest blue can be enjoyed as a mystery, a travelogue, an adventure story, and a work of scholarship. That's really what I thought. I think it's a type of book you can take with you, kick your feet up, read it on the backyard or on the beach, and it really reads very well. It's a very enjoyable read. So just to mention that off the bat, but no matter where you fall in the muiriks question. Now, regardless, there's a lot of interesting things here, the history of dying, the history of, and color and things like that, which we'll get into. So with that, thank you, Dr. Sturman, for joining me.

3:07Thank you, Nathik. Thank you. I appreciate you having me on. Let's start off, tell listeners. And I appreciate you. I appreciate your beautiful words about the book. Thank you. Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you. And I mean it because I enjoyed reading it. Otherwise, I'm sure listeners know by now, if I didn't enjoy the book, I'll interview someone and talk about it. I'm not going to say it. It was a great book. It's so enjoyable. It was a great read. And I think, you know, I even mentioned just because in that context, in the previous episode, we did the anti-muiriks. I think he even mentioned his book that's a phenomenal read, I think, was his words. And I think anyone reads the book can see that because it's really, really a pleasure to read. So, okay. Let's start off. Tell listeners a little bit about yourself and your background. A little bit about myself. So I grew up in Psek, New Jersey, before Psek was known to the, to the Ishevish World. And I went to Khaftzchaim and then I went to learning Ishev in Ertsisral in, in Haritzion. When I came back from Isheva, I went to college. I got a, I went and I studied physics for undergraduate at Isheva University. And then I went on to Columbia University.

4:08I got in a, a master's in electrical engineering, worked for a year or two at, at the, at Bell Labs where a lot of, a lot of Erlachhe, Yiddin, were, were learning, were, were, were, were working at the time. Then I got married to, to, to Ditalbas from Tinek. And six months later we made our, our, our, Teritsisral. And we've been here since then coming up on 40 years. When I came back, when I came to Ertsisral, came back to Ertsisral, I, I got a doctorate from Peebri University in physics and quantum optics. And, spent most of the rest of my life in high tech. Sometimes in optics, sometimes more towards computers and, and actually most of the time in voice over the internet, technology which I had a, a small hand in, in developing. And that's the, actually the technology that you and I are, are, are, are working over right now. So that was, that was a nice, a nice piece of my, of my career.

5:11All along though. From around 1991, I really had a schizophrenic career because there was always a part of me that was involved in Trelet. And I'm sure we'll get into that. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but always present. For two years, I, I took off completely and did nothing but tried to work on developing the technologies that were needed in order to bring Trelett dying into the 21st century. There was, it was at that time, I guess the 20th century. And you know, no one had died with Trelett. The only thing we had to, to go on were, you know, some Roman naturalists and Rufishmob Ayahuda in Menachos. So there were, there was a lot of catching up to do. And sometimes less. For the last, I guess it's almost six years since just before COVID. I took over a CEO of, of, of, of Trelett and I've been working on that full time, leaving everything else behind.

6:12And that's been my greatest, my greatest pleasure to, and it's gross. So how did you become interested in Trelett? Well, as we mentioned in the book, there's, as with most important things in life, it happens by accident. And one, uh, Riverio Tevgor, I'm sure we'll, we'll talk about in a few, a few minutes. River Tevgor discovered, or Trelett in around the year 1987, a few years later, a friend of mine, who had also made Aliyah, Joe Goberman, had a tragedy in his family and wanted to do something to remember his, his brother who was, who was killed. And he was looking for something, something to take on, some mitzvah to take on. And he thought about Sitzis and went to a library and was, uh, looking up, went to the one behind the desk and said, listen, I'd like to learn a little bit about Sitzis. Can you find, can you give me a safer library and said, oh, look at that. There's actually somebody who was doing research into Sitzis, maybe one go talk to him.

7:16And it was River Tevgor. River Tevgor starts to talk to him. Yeah, I know. I've been working on Trelett. I found, uh, what I think is real Trelett. And Joel said to him, well, perfect, beautiful. That's something I can take on. You know, who's a, my brother and, uh, Tevgor laughed at him. He said, what do you mean you take it on? I made one set. That was it. He said, but he said, you know, it's not easy to go and find these snails, uh, the, the Chihuahs on. So he said, if only I knew people who knew how to scuba dive. And in his world, there weren't a lot of people that knew how to scuba dive. Uh, I happened to know how to scuba dive because that was my gym class in Columbia University that I needed in order to graduate. So we called up, uh, me and another good friend of all was Dr. Ari Greenspan and said, you know, one, you come this rabbi that I met says he found Chihuahs only wanted to, uh, to, you know, to get some trellis. Who wouldn't be great if we did this. I knew nothing really at all about trellis. I knew nothing about trellis at the time.

8:18Less than nothing. And, you know, I knew that there was such a thing called a Chihuahs on, but I didn't really know anything else. So we piled into, um, we piled into the back of a broken down station wagon with another person who had a lot to do with trellis, Dr. Israel's item in. And we went all the way up to the tip of northern Israel. I don't know how many hours it was. Three, four, five hours of driving. You know, I don't remember if it was two or three o'clock in the morning that we started. But in that drive up, I became acquainted with people who I never heard of before, who would soon become dear friends. The runs in a rabbi. Revegierchen and Hanochiner. Reveg Herzog. Le Cas du Tier. People who, the die chemists of the, of the late 1800s and early 1900s and on and on, the story just became riveting.

9:20And we finally got up. I couldn't believe, you know, that the time had passed because the story of trellis just became something that, you know, was so amazing to me. And we stepped out of the car and there was Reveg Tegger, who has become a, a close friend since then and a colleague that we've been working together partners in Grong, you might say. And, uh, and that was that, that was the story. We dived dove and picked up. I think it was 293 snails at that point. That was enough to make five sets of trellis, which again, that means six, eight months until we turned that, that those snails into trellis. But still, so those five sets of trellis went to Dr. Zydomin myself, our Greenspan Joel and uh, Reveg Tegger's father in law. And so there we were. I like to say that I have the second set of trellis that was ever produced in them, you

10:21know, over the last 1500 years or so. And that was the beginning of my adventure. It first became a topic which was very interesting, even fascinating. Soon it became something which I was consumed by. Maybe even you'd say that it, uh, that it pretty much became an obsession. We believed we had to do everything that we could in order to make this trellis available to Amisrael. And even to a certain extent, it became something which has defined my, my very, um, my identity, you know, people who know me know me as the person who works in trellis. So you never know what's going to happen when you answer a phone call and you say yes to something, you never know where it's going to lead. And besides now, as you mentioned, now you're the CEO of Tertrila. You wrote this book, the rarest blue with your wife. So you researched it and we'll discuss the book and some, you know, we'll structure this episode through the discussion of the book and then discuss the kind of updates and things

11:22that have changed since the book was in 13 years ago. But why did you decide to write a book and really do that work and research that went into the book and then obviously much more than you're involved with day to day? Well, to everyone, you know, since the beginning of that week that we had, um, since the really the beginning of, of when we started working with trellis, we would bring people in and show them our bunion or just regular people on you, but you was interested in, in the story and the story was, is, is riveting. It's just fascinating to anybody who hears it. It really is a great story, regardless of whether the book does justice to it or not. It's just an unbelievable story. And people wanted to hear the story. And so it was really my wife's idea. She said, you know what? Why don't we write a book on trellis? We know so much about it. And that's when you start to write a book that you know so much about is when you realize that you don't know really anything about a topic. And we did, we had to do a tremendous amount of research. We had to become authors at that point. My father and well, all of a shalom was still with us.

12:24And he, he was a professor of, of English literature. So the book is really written by the three of us. My wife and I would bang out what we considered tremendous prose. Only to have my father and well, red line, almost every word of it. But between the three of us, we were able to get the book out. And, and you know, a barch has shames. It's been, I think you would say that it's, that is successful for, you know, certainly for Jewish books. It's sold over 10,000 copies already. It's been translated into Hebrew. It's sold another 2,000, 3,000 copies already. It's gone through multiple printings. And, and people seem to enjoy the, the story. And I'm glad because it really is something that we wanted to tell. We wanted to tell the story. We became, we fell in love with the mitzvah trélet. And the story of trélet, how it was, what it meant in the ancient world, how it was

13:24lost. And especially, especially, we fell in love with the characters who were involved in bringing back trélet, the Red Zinerrabi and the Revietslkeiser Galerie, the Herzog, who I'm sure will talk about more because I think that we really, really fell in love with him. And of course, the people who we've always been working with, the Tevgurge, all the Gubramin and our Green Span and, and the others all along the way who have just been, you know, very inspirational and wonderful to work with. So, the story told itself. And I think that's where we should turn to, you know, as I said before, the book is really wonderful to read. And I think the, the story, because the way, the structure, the way you and your wife tell this wonderful story in the book, I think we should really turn there and let's tell the story, if you're all in brief again, if those interested read the book, I'll link to the book in the show notes for those interested in purchasing the book. But I think we should start with the story. And as you start to die of dies and you start kind of with the history of dying. And then we can work through kind of the history until today. But I think it's important, as you do in the book, to kind of give an overview and the

14:26history of dying. Going back to ancient times. Thank you, so the truth is the book was written for a very, very wide audience. Right? It was written to be understood, certainly, by everyone. And we translated, of course, and we tried to explain any term in there. It was written to be interesting. And it was written to have as wide a spectrum of reader as possible. And that comes to a certain extent with, there's a pitfall in that because it means that you can't concentrate necessarily for a specific audience who wants to hear more about something or they want to hear it in a different way. So if you'll allow me, I think the audience that's listening to this podcast may be a little bit different than the wide, wide audience at the book, as I think that, if you will, maybe we'll say a little bit more about how I'll say a little bit more about what's specific to the people that are listening.

15:30But nonetheless, it starts at the same place. We believe that snail dying is at least, let's see, 4,000 years old, maybe 4,500 years old. It probably started on the island of Crete with a civilization called the Minowans. They were the pre-Greaks and somehow another they discovered that these sea snails of the Murex family could produce dies. And all the way that we go now in this adventure that we're going to take together, there's going to be some interesting things that we have to explain. One of them is the word die, but also the significance of die because it is not easy chemically to make a die. So a die is not a stain. A stain can be a beautiful color, but it won't last long. It may fade or it may wash out. A die is very, very hard chemically to produce. In fact, one chemist once told me that the history of chemistry is the search for dies.

16:36Everything else was learned by accident along the way because to find something which can at once adhere to cloth, but at the same time not be able to wash out from that cloth, it's almost what in chemistry you'd call a tiredness of the satry. It doesn't make sense. Either something is so inert and so self-contained that it doesn't adhere to anything. Take a beautiful marble, for example, no matter how long you rub it on your shirt, it's not going to do anything. And on the other hand, there are things which easily adhere to fabrics, but that means that they're easily going to adhere to soap or water, which are molecularly a lot stickier. So something which can adhere to a fabric but not wash out is very, very, very rare. But nonetheless, somehow or another, these benowans found that you could produce a die from these sea snails that live in the Mediterranean Ocean. But not only was it a die, but it could be purple or blue.

17:41And that was unbelievable. As maybe we'll talk about it, I hope we will. Blue is extremely hard to make from a physics standpoint. From a die standpoint, it's nearly impossible to have a die which is blue. So when they discovered that you could have this and they made fabrics from it, that changed the entire Mediterranean world. And I would say even the whole near Eastern world. Because anybody who could get their hands on these dies wanted to, no matter how much it cost. And the dies ultimately became worth at some point up to 20 times their weight and gold, the purple and blues that came from the Mirax. Another thing which we're going to have to say along this adventure, purple meant to the ancients, the dies that came from the purple snail. That meant all the whole spectrum from red, the reddish purples that came out of the snail all the way through the blueish purple and even the blues that came out of the snail.

18:43And so all of that was called purple. So you have to be careful when you're talking, when you're, you know, if you're talking to an ancient, an ancient, uh, Minoan. And he's telling you about purple and you look at it and you say, oh, this is blue to me. So, uh, you have to understand it, you know, terms correct. In any event, these became fabulously expensive. When the Torah sees that in our tradition in Judaism, when we see something which is of great value, we don't use it for personal aggrandizement. We don't use it as a, you know, as a, as a measure of status, which is what the rest of the world did. And rather we take things which are beautiful, expensive and we sanctify them. We make, we give them caducia. And so the Torah, when it says, Treyua is an argaman the first time, it's in Parshash Truma along with the other expensive and beautiful things.

19:45Zaha, Vachesif, Huna, Koshit. Treyua is argaman, Veto, Adshani. These are the things which are, which Akarish Barch who put in the world because they're beautiful and rare. And we make the Mishkan out of them. We make the Big Dei Kuhuna out of them. And the Koyingodol wears the Mithil which is Kuyil Treyua, so all Treyua's. And the Koynhedjo, at least the Koynza Mahokas and Yama that we bask in like wore a belt which was made of Treyua's. And every single Jew was commanded to put on a string of Treyua's because Treyua's in the ancient world meant beauty, it meant Mauchus, the King wore Treyua, it meant Kedusha, the Big Dei Kuhuna were made of Treyua and every single Jew, they attend to you when Mauchus Kuhanim, Vegoy Kodosh is royalty and is Kuhuna. And that's where Treyua's comes into our tradition. Just one more thing to, just one thing to follow up on when you mentioned the Minoans and so on and the complicated dying process and how they discovered it.

20:46How do, as far as we know, as far as you know, how did they create this die and how to, what was their process? We don't know the process of the ancient world. Maybe we'll talk about that when we talk about some of the things about how they might have died in the ancient world. We don't know about the process. We do know that they did it. That's about as much as I can say. And maybe now's a good time to say, to make a distinction between something which is a fact and something which is conjecture because they're often conflated. There are certain facts and a fact means it will never change. We know it to be true. Then there are conjectures, theories. This is how I interpret the facts. This is what I think would have been or should have been or could have been. But those are conjectures and conjectures are subject to change as our data and our knowledge changes. And we have to make a distinction between two. That Muiriks was used in the ancient world to die.

21:46I think that's a fact and probably something that no one will argue with, no one, no matter which camp you're in. That Muiriks was used in the ancient world to die blue, I believe is also a fact. And I'll make the case for that. So we have to start by understanding they did it. How did they do it? We have our theories and we have our ideas. And some of them we've even done experiments to prove that they are legitimate and could have been done. But unfortunately I don't know how they did it. You know here you have Roshmabayyudah. Roshmabayyudah. In Menach. Roshmabayyudah says to Abayee. Abayee asks him how to kill her. How do you make your treas. Roshmabayyudah answers that is one of the Nehuta. He comes to Merit's Israel to Bavvel. They didn't make treas in Bavvel. They couldn't because the Chihuahzal lived in the Mediterranean. So that's 1000 kilometers or more away from Bavvel.

22:49So when Roshmabayyudah comes to Bavvel, Abayee jumps on him. How do you guys make treas there? And Roshmabayyudah says we take Dam Chihuahzal, which is an extract from the Chihuahzal. And we add Samanim. And then we boil it up and that's how we make treas. I have to say if there was one person who I could go back in time and meet, it would be Roshmabayyudah. I would hold him and shake him. More information. What do you mean by the Samanim? What was the pH? What was the temperature? How did you break open or not break open? There's so many questions that I want to ask him. But unfortunately this is all we have. So we have fragments of recipes and we have little hints here and there. And again, I've read that Kamara of Roshmabayyudah probably a thousand times. And there's a lot to learn from it, a tremendous amount to learn from it, especially if you listen to it with a dire's ear. There are things there that he's telling you, but not enough.

23:52I wish he would have told us more. And as you mentioned, Dam in this reading is not literally blood, but we can get there and we can discuss that. You mentioned the fact and that the facts that we know for sure they were using Murax for dying and as well as the fact that in your estimation it's blue, not purple. We should talk about that. I think we should follow up in here. Now how do we know factually that they were using Murax to die? I mean, what have you found and tests have you done? And also the blue versus the purple question. I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to parry that for a moment or actually put it on hold for a second because I need to finish the story a little bit. Go ahead. I think that we need to talk a little bit about how Trégot was lost and how it was rediscovered. And I think then we can get into these, into these questions. How Trégot was lost? We don't know. When was it lost? We think probably around in the, look, Reherzagan is doctorate. I'm jumping ahead.

24:53Reherzagan's doctorate. Reherzagan is doctorate says in the days of Ravachai in Marmi Maschkin, they had Trégot. That's the last time we know for a fact that anybody had Trégot. That reverts like puts around somewhere around the year of 500, 600 in that, in that time period. By the time of the Tanchumba, there is no Trégot. Vachav Anglanella, Lavancha, Trégot, Nignaz, and that's already in the 700s. So between the 500s and the 700s, Trégot was lost. Now what happened between that 500 and 700, 600? And that century, 600, is a century of turmoil for the entire world, but especially for the Archistral. You have wars. You have the wars between the Persians and the Byzantine Romans. You have Jerusalem going back and forth between the Christians and the Persians and then

25:58again the Christians. And then finally, after the Romans and the Byzantines and the Persians knock each other to death, then the Arabs come in and destroy everything. The one thing that everybody had in common is that they destroyed everything. They killed Jews and they hated Jews. And no matter who was conquering, it seems that the Jews of Erichisrael chose the wrong side in every battle. And so when they came in, whether it was the Byzantines who massacred the Jews, whether it was the Persians, who felt that the Jews were helping the Byzantines or the opposite. And when the Arabs came in, the Jews of Erichisrael would completely decimated in that period. And that's when Reversal believes that the Jew was lost. 1,300 years went by and nobody had trailer. People guessed and tried to understand what the trailer was. The Rambim says, there are so many years that we don't have trailer.

27:01We don't know what exactly it is or what the Jew was on this. And we shown it, we shown it. Right along in the 1800s, people started to become interested again in Trithus. We'll talk about the secular world because they became interested because those were the years in the 1800s. Those were the years when archaeology and the archaeologists were having the greatest era of archaeology. The French, the Germans, the British. They were all traipsing around the Middle East and all over the Mediterranean, stealing whatever they could and bringing it back to the British Museum and the Louvre. And the expeditions were just looking everywhere they could for all kinds of information about the ancient world. And there you started finding inside and you have Mount Murax made of thousands, maybe even millions of Murax.

28:03You have coins that have the Murax on them from the Roman period. You start to learn a little bit about the classical languages, the Kadean. You'll hear the words Takilto and Agamanno in a Kadean which was being understood for the first time in those years, learning to read Quneiform from the Babylonians and the Persians and also from the reading about what was going on in Egypt and learning about that. While the secular world started to believe that the Murax snail was the source of training. At the same time in the Jewish world, in the 1800s, especially with Shivat Sion and people coming back to Erichisrael, people started to be worried about a very important, very important idea. You see, if you come back to Erichisrael, what's the reason you want to build a base on Miktosh? You want to build a base on Miktosh because you want to do the Avodon, the base on Miktosh. But you can't do the Avodon, the base on Miktosh without the Big Dekehuna.

29:03You can't have the Big Dekehuna without the Kadean. People started to ask, what is Kadean? How can we find, how can we rediscover Kadean in order to be able to do the Avodon, the base on Miktosh? It's Pharisees' role, right? It's a whole monograph on the Big Dekehuna called the Kupasarach. And first it's already solved with shit, in the middle 1800s. And there he talks about the issue of Tchaewat. And he quotes some of the secular scholars, Gzeneus, who felt that it came from a seasnail. Gzeneus was a hebraicist. He wrote a dictionary on the Tanach explaining different words and Anchhiwazon, he's Antchaewat. He says, it comes from a Chhiwazon. Anchhiwazon is a creature that lives in the Mediterranean. He suggests a certain seasnail. And he says, and from it you make this purple violet. So Tchaewat's as well says, Gzeneus is right and wrong. He's right in the seasnail. He's right that it lives in the Mediterranean. But he's wrong that it gives blue violet because Tchaewat, according to our tradition,

30:07is blue. But say it. The Razziner comes along a few years later. And the Razziner says, okay, well, we have to find Tchaewat. He actually rejects certain ideas of the Razziner reby of the Tfersi shawl, excuse me. And for example, Tfersi shawl held that you don't even need a Chhiwazon. All you need is a good blue that's steadfast and never washes out. Like the Rambham says, omeda, biofi, avi, watishtane. If you find anything like that and even could possibly entertain the idea that you could make a synthetic die as long as it's the right color and it never fades. But he didn't know of such a thing. He's living in the world before dies, before Perkins invented or discovered dies. And so synthetic dies. So the Razziner reby says, I have to go find the Chhiwazon. And he goes to search for the Chhiwazon and he finds what he believes to be a candidate

31:09for the Chhiwazon, the sepia fish in English, a type of squid, cuttlefish. And he comes back and he makes trellis from that. Some people accepted his trellis. Most of the people in the world didn't accept his trellis. And then a few years later, in 1914, Revertzog, Ravitzl, Guy Zikalvevi, Heertzog, enters the picture, writes a comprehensive doctorate on trellis. And I should say at this point, it's very hard to read Revertzog's doctorate, especially in the original. Because Revertzog spoke 12 languages. And when he writes his doctorate, he expects everybody who was reading his doctorate also to know 12 languages. So he doesn't ever translate the French or the German or the Italian or the Sanskrit or the Greek or the Latin or anything else that he's throwing into his doctor. And I can't say that we're in the middle of a project to completely translate Revertzog's

32:10doctorate into English. We wrote it in English, ostensibly. But we translated everything into English and then we translated everything into Hebrew. Nakhir, if it's okay with you, I hope you'll give me permission. I'm putting up a web page that'll be trellis.com slash Svarm chatter. And things that I talk about here, I'll have links to them on that page so people can go on them and they can go get it. One of the links is to Revertzog's doctorate completely in English and Hebrew. So anybody who wants to read it, I'll be able to read it. Revertzog sounds good. I'll just mention sounds good. I'll link to that in the show notes that I'll just make it easy for everyone to be in one location. Continue. Okay, perfect. Revertzog spends a lot of time in his doctorate looking at the Muiriks tronkulis, the snail that we believe to be the source of the of trellis. But at the same time, he analyzes the razzin trellis. He sends it to some chemists. He sends it to three different chemists, one in Germany, Paul Friedwander. He sends it to the Goblin Institute and he also sends it to Professor Greene and London

33:15and Leeds. And they come back and they say this is a synthetic dye, meaning it doesn't come from a living creature. Revertzog doesn't believe that. The razzin Rebi said that it came from a, from a, from a cuddlefish. So after understanding the chemistry and looking at the chemistry, it ends up that the dye in razzin dye comes from the chemicals that were added and not from the, from, from the cuddlefish. And in fact, the synthetic dye that he ends up creating with his, with his deft chemistry, the razzin Rebi is what's called Prussian Blum and Prussian Blum was invented hundreds of years before. And, and, and, and you could use anything you could use. Oxbro, that's what Dippo and these Bach used when they, when they first synthesized the dye. And, and so Revertzog says this can't be, this can't be, uh, legitimate treuette.

34:18So after says, treuess and chereminachiozone, vischemrominachiozone pasol. And this is not coming from the chiozone, it's coming from the chemicals that were added. Rarzog now is faced with a dilemma. And this is the dilemma that we're left with in 1914 and we're left with for the next 60, 70 years. If you have three statements. Trele, the source of ancient trele is the Murex C-snale. Murex C-snales can produce purple. And the third statement is, trele is blue. Those three statements cannot all be true. Now the secular scientists believed that there was so much evidence for the Muiriks being the source of Trelet that the last statement, Trelet is blue, that has to be wrong. The tradition of the Jewish people that believed that Trelet was Domelorakia, was Sky blue, that has to be wrong in Trelet has to be some kind of a purple or a violet.

35:23Ranziddi Reppi, who knew of the first soul and knew of Gazenius and knew of the fact that that people were saying it was the Muiriks, it was the C-Snail. But what did you do? These snails produced purple. And in fact, he even says to his Talmud, out of Polapartont, fall into the trap that the secular scholars are telling you that Trelet is purple, Haswishalam, and let his blue. So he rejected the first of the statement that the source of the Trelet was a Muiriks and he went looking and searching for a different source. Reverezag is left with a problem. On the one hand, he would like to believe that Muiriks is Trelet is the source of Trelet, is the Chihuah-Zon. On the other hand, he would like, he doesn't doubt the fact that the scientists and the chemists are telling him that it's purple. And in fact, they say it specifically, but sometimes you miss it in the doctorate, because they say it in French and they say it in German. But if you translate the French in the German, especially free blender, in the Guguin Institute, they say, it is impossible

36:28to get anything out of the Muiriks other than purple. And the Guguin Institute says, I only know of one thing which gives the blue dye and that is indigo. Or as Reverezag is supposed to do. And Reverezag lives the rest of his life with his Suman Chihuah. We could talk a little bit about the Jenthina, another possibility that he suggested. But I'll leave that for now. And if it's okay, if I'm okay to go on, I want to go on to the next step in the story. The next step in the story comes many, many years later. And it's by a chemist at the Shankov College of Fibres by the name of Otto Ellsner, who was doing research into the snails and into the dye based on whatever reason he had. And Niri makes an interesting, I won't call it a rediscovery because he sees that on sunny days, he actually,

37:29instead of getting purple out of the Muiriks, when he does his dyeing, he gets a beautiful blue dye. And he realizes that exposing the Muiriks dye at a very specific stage to sunlight will give you a beautiful blue sky blue and not purple. And not here in one sense, we can end the story. And then the whole debate really. Because we have a lot of things to do. Right? One can make the case that there are only three criteria for kosher treles. It has to come from a sea creature, the Chihuah-Zon, a Chihuah-Zon, not the Chihuah-Zon, a Chihuah-Zon. It has to be blue or it has to remind you of the sky in the sea. And it has to be fast, or meant to be off your velote stade. If you have those three things, then that's it. You're done. You have kosher treles.

38:39Who believes this, by the way? The Rajin Rebbe. The Rajin Rebbe in Sfou-Neh-Tum-Une-Khoel says like this. Ima Khara-Khippos, this is before he goes out on his quest. He says, if after my quest, if on my quest, the sea creature, we'll be in the same room as the Chihuah-Zon. If I find any Chihuah-Zon, whatever the Chihuah-Zon should be, that can give me the color of Chihuah-Zon. Seven are made at Pioffia Velote Shhtaneh. That's fast and doesn't fade or wash out. And then, of course, without a suffice, you can use this to make chihuah-Zon. I know this from a post-c first hand. Because you remember in the book, the part where I go to Mexico? I go to Mexico to look at a different possibility for a snail. And these snails are very interesting because they're part of the Mirac's family and they give a die, they give a purple die.

39:42The minstack are this tribe that, from recorded history, they've been using these snails to make purple dies. And I wanted to know if maybe we could be able to use these snails one day to make trellis. Why? Because you don't have to kill them. They actually give the snail when you irritate them and you milk them, they call it milking. On my way, this I don't write in the book, but on my way, I stopped off by Ravshet, a reversal chef. And I asked her, I said, this is the plica papora pants. It produces a die and I'm going to check and to see if this die using the methods that we use could be, could we could make trellis out of it. I said, Rebi, if I find out that you can make trellis out of it, would it be kosher? So you took the snail, you looked at it, you banged it on the table, he said, it's a sea creature that has a shell. That's a chihuah-Zon. If you can make trellis out of it, a trellis that doesn't fade, then of course it should be kosher. The only thing that you need is

40:47trellis, milking a chihuah-Zon, cusher. He's chihuah-Milking from a plant obvious way that's no good. And if it's the right color and if it's something which doesn't fade, then it should be kosher for trellis. He didn't ask me if it was in Shavid's vollen. He didn't ask me, it doesn't, it was in the Pacific Ocean. He didn't ask me if you have to keep it alive until you kill it, it doesn't, because I can, I keep it alive and I can still get the die out of it. He didn't ask me if there's say-da, because actually I would agree that there's no say-da on these, they live above the wave line and you just go and pick them off the rocks. Or we cared about with these three things. So in a certain sense, the Harach question according to many, many people in Poskin would end the minute that you have a chihuah-Zon, that's blue, that doesn't fade. Now this has nothing to do with science, right? Because I can look at it and I can say, is this a chihuah-Zon? Well, it's in the sea, it's got a shell, it's a chihuah-Zon. Right? I look at it, is it blue or not blue? Does it fade?

41:50My chihuah-Zon is 40 years old now and it hasn't faded. You can wash it, you can put it in bleach, it doesn't fade. So is this science? It's like saying, you know, you want to know if it's time for narrative. So you say, so my god's side and we'll see if it's dark outside. The person says, you're not, we don't rely on science. It's not talking about science, you're looking at something. So this, to a certain extent, can be the end of the story. But it's not the end of the story because the rest of the story is really fascinating. The important question, a very important question, I don't know if it's a halal-halal, it's important, but it's very, very interesting and very important is, what did they do in the ancient world? Not only is this question for Trilette, but I'm asking the question, was this actually the chihuah-Zon that was used by Rabiaqiva, by Rabi Tarrfon? Was this the chihuah-Zon that was used by its region and by its shangy? Was this the chihuah-Zon that was in the mid-bar that that was used? So these are questions that we can get into now. But at least the halal-halal,

42:56you can understand that you can make the case that this is a parenthetical question. It's in the side, it's tangential. Right, and so that's one opinion. I mean, what about the question becomes, and I'm sure you know this question, is this imanem when the Gamara gives the different simanem, and does this comport with the simanem, which I think is what you were trying to explain that your view, this is the main characteristics that are needed not so much to simanem. Okay, well, so now that we now we want to ask a question, what did they use in the ancient world? So before we get to the simanem, let's take a bird's eye, we're 10,000 feet above. When Rev Tevger found out about Elzmer's work and decided that he was going to go out and actually try to make a dietylas, he writes a book called Cleal Tevger. And in that, he makes the argument. And he says, well, let's look at all of the species that live in the Mediterranean Ocean, where we know the

43:56the Chihuahua who lives. And let's take on, now he says, I'm going to look at the species that exist today. I have no reason to assume that species became extinct. You know, there's no reason to assume that. So let's look at all of the species that live in the Mediterranean Ocean. And let's see how many of them give a die altogether. And then we can at least we can narrow our search. And it ends up that there's really only the Murex. Now the Murex is three species according to Waneas the way we speak about species today. I don't think that the Chazal really saw them as any difference between them. You know, you have to really know them well. You know, like you look at somebody else's children and you say, oh, they all go like, but when they're your own children, you can't make any mistakes. With snails, if you, if they're your own snails, you're not going to make a mistake. I can certainly tell the difference in the dark from 20 meters, whether something is a Murex brand, brand ours or a Murex tranquillus, but not everybody can.

44:56And so I don't know if Chazal really saw much of a difference between them. Chazal from, from Achioazal from any Chazal, as long as it's considered a Chazal. So it ends up that there's only the Murex out of all the species in the Mediterranean. And okay, so you'll say all right, but maybe there's another species. Well, it ends up that, you know, if you want to just kind of put odds, one of the odds of finding another species in the Mediterranean that we don't know about, that would be a die. So it should be in the order of magnitude more or less about how many species there are in the Mediterranean. And one out of that number would be what we're looking for. It ends up, I worked on this last night with AI, I asked a bunch of questions. How many species are there in the Mediterranean? So it ends up there, 17,000 species in the Mediterranean. And so far, we've only found one of the Murex three, whatever, that can produce a die. So that's

45:57already a very strong indication that what we're looking for is the Murex. In my book, in the physics chapter, which is hardgoing, I admit, that's the hardest chapter in the book. But in the physics chapter, I extend Ravtevger's idea and I ask a different question, but related. Not how many species are there in the Mediterranean, but how many molecules amongst all of the molecules that we know, how many molecules that are naturally made organic molecules produce a blue die. And go and behold, there's only one that we know of that produces a fast die, which gives you a blue color, and that's in to go. Now, how many molecules do we know of? Organic molecules, once again, AI gives me the answer, 400,000. So there are 400,000 molecules that we know of organic molecules, and only one of them gives a blue color that can be considered to die, and actually a very,

46:59very fast die. So when somebody comes along and says, why should you assume that the Murex, which gives you this indigo plus other indigo, indigo based die, why should you assume that that is the source of ancient trailer? My answer is, well, you've got, you know, the odds are pretty good, because if you found, or you're looking for something else, one in 17,000 or one in 400,000, you know, those are pretty hard odds to be. And by the way, the answer is always going to be for the people who don't believe that Murex was the source of ancient trailer, for people who don't believe that indigo is actually the molecule, which gives trailer its color, and being very careful in my choice of words, it's the die which gives trailer its color. It's not the only die, which is present in trailers, and not only molecule certainly. But if you want to say that, you're not, you don't have any problem with one in 17,000 or even one in 400,000, because

48:03in that camp, more or less you believe that the Chigazan has to be a miraculous creature. It was given to us by a Kurdish barakho, miraculously, and it was taken away from us by a Kurdish barakho, miraculously. And therefore, I'm not afraid of any odds, because a Kurdish barakho is far, far greater than any odds that I have to worry about. And therefore, as long as that's your opinion, then you don't have to look for anything you don't have to go in further, you don't have to look at Simon or Nazi money, you can just basically say this is what it is. And that's not the opinion of everybody. That certainly wasn't the opinion of the Red Zinerrabi who felt that he could go searching for trailer, and it wasn't the opinion of the over of Herzog, or felt that you could find it wasn't the opinion of a chronum, certainly, who felt that trailer could be found. And there are many posts in today, many people who wear trailers who don't necessarily believe that the Chigazan was a miraculous creature. In the minutes that you don't believe that, so now you're working with these odds. And now you're going to ask me as you did,

49:05what about the challenges? And that the answer is, since the Tevger started making the trailers, you have a lot that's happened. You have many things that have come out in support of the idea that the Chigazan is the Miraks, and many challenges that have gone on along the way. And here I want to say, anybody who wants to be involved in this subgyu, in any kind of an authoritative way, meaning you want to talk about it, there's a lot to read, and I encourage everybody to read. But if you want to make some kind of an authoritative statement, you have to be very careful, because the scholarship is changing, the scholarship changes all the time. Things are discovered, experiments are performed. And even over the last year, there have been articles and findings and experiments, which very, very strongly change the discussion discourse,

50:10regarding what is or wasn't possible or what was or what would have been, and so on. So now, when we're of Tevger, for example, in 1987, was making trailer, we didn't know much about natural dying with the Miraks. So one of the challenges that came up very, very early was, is it even possible now, you know, how do I know, or nowadays we use very modern chemicals to go through the process of doing the dying. And in the book, I discussed, we use sodium diethion iodine, and there's terms like reduction in oxidation, and they're very, very interesting, but they're modern terms, and many of the chemicals that we use are modern. So the challenge very early came up, but can it be done in any kind of a natural way? Or of Nahum Rabinovitz, Rosh Hashivah, in Malayadul Mim, said, it sounds good, but until you can show me that you can die in a natural way using these,

51:16using these snails, I'm not going to believe that this was real true. And so we went searching for somebody who could help us to do natural dying, and we actually found somebody in England, his name was John Edmunds, and he was a person who was very involved in natural indigo dying, and we asked him if he could help us try to understand how we would, how it could be naturally done using muiricks, and he did, and he was able to die in completely natural ways using muiricks. And also along the way, we ended up starting to find fabrics from the ancient times that were died, that were died, not only died with muiricks, those were known for quite some time, but those were purple. First, the Masada fabric came out, Masada fabric is a dark blue, maybe even a dark blue

52:17tending to violet, but one thing is clear, it has more indigo than you would normally find in a snail. So somehow or another, whether again, whether it's a little bit dark blue, you would call it or you'd call it violet, it's not the components that you would normally find in a snail. So already we know, I'm assuming that that your listeners know a lot about violet. A muiricks produces three different molecules. One of them is indigo, and the other two are brominated, there's one bromine or two bromines attached to the indigo. When it comes out of the snail, there's this mixture which is indigo, we'll call it not a lot of indigo, and a lot of the other molecules, mono and diagromal indigo, those are purple. And therefore, this mixture will give you a purple. Some species like the brandaris, give you a little bit more diagromal indigo, so they're reddish purple, some species like the trunkuelis give you a little bit less diagromal, mono and bromine goes for the blueish purple. But if you want to get traylette, and this was the problem all along

53:21for 200 years, and certainly what the problem that the red zine rebe and reverse again, if you want to make it blue, then somehow or another, you have to filter out some of that diagromal indigo and let the indigo shine through. And this is what Otto Wells was discovered that sunlight was able to do. In any event, when, so the Masada fabric, which was found, and was investigated and looked at by Professor Corrin, so he found that it had more indigo than you would normally find in a coming directly from this nail. How it got that way? We don't know. Then the Wadi Mourbaz fabric was found, and that was also shown to be very blue, meaning it had much, much more indigo than would normally be found in a snail. How it got that way? We don't know. And since then, there have been other fabrics that we found, and maybe

54:24later on when you ask me about what really has changed since the book, I'll talk about another fabric that was found because that's very important. But now we start to find ancient fabrics that were, you know, that were made blue. In Shikmona, we found shards that were stained, and now we're not talking about 2000 years ago. We're talking about 3000 years ago. 3000 years ago was by its ratio, the times of Shwomua Melek was building a base on Miktosh and asking Tsar, Chira Melek Tsar, to send him somebody who can help him with the trilless of the base on Miktosh. We're talking about Achaof, Melek Israel, and Yehu Melek Israel. And at this point, in Erich Israel, you have this incredible dye factory in Shikmona, which is in southern Khayfa, and you find these shards that are stained with dyes. Fantastic finds 3000 years ago. And when they're analyzed, they're murics. We know we can tell that they're murics,

55:27vadi, by the way, that's suffoc. Some of them are dyed purple, and some of them are dyed blue. Some of them are stained blue. And on the site, I put up a picture of the shards that I held in my hand. I took it with my own phone, that picture, some of them are purple, some are never blue. So these evidence, as far as they were cumulated, that they did use trilless in the ancient world, that they did use the murics to make trilless in the ancient world. And that you have challenges. And then you have challenges. And all along the way, you have challenges. You have challenges that you weren't able to die with it. We believe that that's not the case now. You were able to die with murics. You have challenges. You weren't able to die blue with it. We believe that that is not the case. And I would say almost that it is a fact factual, that that is not the case. Again, facts and conjecture. And then you have challenges. Why would they do it in the ancient world? Is the trailer of the ancient, the Jews the same as the trailer of the of the ancients?

56:28And this we can get into. But I think that they're secondary. I want to mention something before we turn to, as you said, changes since the book and what's going on today and dying and practical Hilchus dying, if you will. This is something that we were discussing off-air. And it's fascinating because even if you don't believe that the muric trunculus is trilless. And for those that don't wear muric trilless, it's still interesting how you and the trilless going about this process of dying and going around. And you mentioned some of that. But I want to mention something else that came up and it was relevant to conversations I had with people and kind of the feedback I got from the last trilless episode I'm sure we'll be here, is that you mentioned a little while ago how the resurgence in trilless. And you made a comment how this is going to start beginning in the mid 19th century going on today where the resettling of artists are all and this working towards that and so on is that we're going to have the basic make this how are we going to, how are we going to, we need trilless. So it seems like that there are it changes and some sort of messianism and Zionism underlying here and and something that you

57:33know we discussed is is this whole trilless a microcosm of kind of the question of science. I know you're saying for sure in parts or not science, but let's just say science and archaeology and history in halacha. How we use that in current day halacha. So you saying you're asking two things. One one is the question of messianism and the other question is the question of of of torrentsides both of those are fascinating. You know there was a book that was written by a professor by goddess Sagive who who writes kind of almost a sociological history of trilless and he writes about the people who are in the peteil trilless organization. He calls them messianic. I think he was using that term in a pejorative way. I don't think somebody who says anima min ben muna shwain ma bwia samashiyach is necessarily a pejorative. But on the other hand, I have to be honest. I

58:35I yearn for michia as much as the next person. I don't consider myself though, you know, a messianist. And I think that the that the characteristic over the years trilless has been called many things. First it was called the trilless of the scientist. It was the trilless of the secularist and it was trilless of the misrachnik him of the Zionist and then it was the trilless of the messianists. None of that applies anymore. I can tell you and I am bound your lawyer. I am bound also by client trilless wearer privilege, right? I can't tell you who wears trilless. I can't tell you where I send trilless and to who. But I can tell you that it goes everywhere, everywhere. There are Magide's sheer in mirror and in lakewood that are wearing trilless. There are admorem, chafidashirebis. There are irreligious Jews. There are reform, conservative, orthodox Jews in every single continent and

59:39virtually every single country that are wearing trilless from Manchester to Melbourne and everywhere in between. Not everybody wears them out but the notion that trilless is of one group is vadanat the case anymore. It spans the spectrum and I would almost say that it's something which there aren't a lot of things which span literally the entire spectrum of the Jewish people. And that's a beautiful thing and I think that that has to do to a certain extent with Rev. Tevkur when we first started to get involved in trilless. So we're a bunch of brash olim from America and we start to think of marketing strategies and how do we have to go to and how do we have to convince people? Rev. Tevkur said to us immediately after the mids of trilless was given to Amisra Al-Parshach Shraach the next words are Vajikach Korach, the mahluket of Korach.

1:00:43He said that this is a mids of that was born in mahlukas and Korach used the trilless that was given two days before to start his mahlukas with Mosher Abedu and he said the Tikkun for that will be that we try to introduce trilless without mahluket, avoiding mahlukas wherever you can. And that's something that we've taken to heart. In all the times that I've ever spoken about trilless, I don't want to try to convince anybody that you should wear trilless. In fact, I could probably give a sheer on why you shouldn't wear trilless better than most of the people who are anti-trilless. There are many many haolachic reasons not to wear trilless. But but I think that the notion that trilless belongs to any one group, I think that is no longer the case. So that's in terms of the issue that you raised, but in terms of the issue of torrent science. Well, this is actually a very very interesting topic and the question becomes on a spectrum how much are you willing to admit

1:01:53science into your psaqa'laha. And I think here you find let's take the spectrum and divide it into three. There are those who say anything that comes out that comes from anything outside the four walls of the base medrish is puzzle. And I think that you find that in a lot in a lot of the people who are against trilless, the minute that you say the word academia or you say the word science, that's already seen as as as a reason not to accept the words. And that's I think the a far end of the spectrum where you really don't want to use science at all. The other end of the spectrum is to say look, our tower is Taurus MS, right? And MS comes in many forms. And if you're looking for MS, then you look everywhere. And this is in attitude, I think that's shared by by many people, not everyone. But if you're looking at a sookia, we in a sookia in Gamara, we have

1:02:56something which is called umdana, right? Something which is logical or something which seems to go out and you look, I don't know what what's the role of the people in the world that, you know, what are they how do they act or how do they not act? And in those cases, maybe psychology would be would be part of of an umdana just because it has anology at the end of the word doesn't necessarily mean that it's trife. And and and that's the opinion of many people, not all people. And then you have an interesting, an interesting middle ground. And that is I'm not going to tell you what reality is. But I am going to tell you the way how lawful works. And here you have somebody, for example, Ravusha vice. Ravusha vice, as far as I know, firsthand and from his Chuvot, he doesn't say it's assertive word tribus. But he says, no, post-c can give a psaq al-akhad that you should wear tribus, why? Because many of the of the proofs, so to speak, or many of the issues involved in the

1:04:00Chuvot come from science and archaeology and history and linguistics and all these things. That's not part of the base medir. And again, Nakhiaz al-Loyer, you know there's such a thing as inadmissible evidence. You can bang your head against the judge as much as you want and say how but you see it's true. But if the evidence is inadmissible, then the judge has no no alternative but to not allow it. I'll give you a, when my daughter has done it. If somebody comes in front of the sun, head, 71 people are sitting and judging in the wish god, I'm going to say and he takes a knife and he stabs somebody in front of them dead. What's the ha-lakhad? ha-lakhad is that that person goes free. Why? Because all 71 judges are going to say he's va-dai, you know, he's, he's quiet. But in cases of capital punishment, we know that you're not allowed to have a unanimous jury, right? You can't have a unanimous unanimous unitary. Now the

1:05:05person is going to go free. Are you going to take that person to be your babysitter? I don't think so. We know he's a ro-ze-ah, but he, but halakhad has its own quality. And according to some of the bosques, admissible evidence is what I find in the svar-man-based medwish and everything else is inadmissible. That doesn't say that it's not true. And we'll see this, for example, if we talk for for example about the question of the other other other other issues, there may be halakhic reasons not to wear tre-less. But in my opinion, which is worth whatever it's worth, there are many, many reasons not to wear tre-less. But I don't think that one of them is that this wasn't the tre-less that was used in the ancient world unless you believe that the tre-wason was some kind of a miraculous creature, which is again, it's absolutely legitimate. Not everybody would would go down that path. And if you're not going to go down that path, I think you really have to say that the tre-wason is the is the mu-rex. It was used in the ancient world. It was used to die blue in the ancient world.

1:06:07Ghazar knew about it. Believe me, I can show you from a hundred different ways that Ghazar had to know about it. So, so, but again, but the question of halakhad is the question of halakhad. You mentioned the Messiah issue. Do you want to raise that here? And this was something that came up with the Red Ziner in the 19th century. Yes. The Messiah issue was fascinating. And because if you're ever going to talk about Messiah in any way, you're going to end up talking about tre-less. And the reason for that is until tre-was came along, halakhad Jews had it very easy. Because everything you did, everything you believed to be true, was also something you had a Messiah for. It comes along tre-less now. And some people are claiming that you should be doing something a Mitsub-Dorahisa, but there's no misura for it. So now, you know, in science or in mathematics, even, if you want to understand the principle, you have to go to the extreme ends. And you test

1:07:14it at the extreme. Because in the middle, they're not going to learn anything. Everything is easy. If you have Mitsub-Dorah and the Messiah, and they all jive together, what you do is exactly what you already did. What you should do is exactly what your grandfather did. Then it's not a test case. It's a test case. If you feel you should do something halakhically different than what your grandfather did. Now you have a question on a Messiah. And here, here you have the question of if it goes against a Messiah, should we do it? Should we? And I want to say a few things about that. First of all, I can't not quote the Baisalevi. I only have the Baisalevi, which is given to us by the Ranzini Rabbi. That's the only one that's recorded. There are those who say that the Baisalevi said something different. I don't know. They're probably right, but I don't have access to that. And the Baisalevi, who was often quoted as saying that you need misura, the Baisalevi says something quite different. The Baisalevi says, so the Ranzini Rabbi, what are you showing me that's new? If I don't

1:08:17know anything new, then it's as if I have a Messiah, what you tell me different, something different than the Vile Nagorno or the Rambamno. So if they knew everything that you know and they didn't wear a toilet or they didn't act that way. So it's as if I have a Messiah that they didn't. But the Ranzini Rabbi picks up on what the Baisalevi is saying. See because the Baisalevi says that if I would know something new, if you would show me something new, if you show me something that was lost that you're bringing back, whether it's the Chilazan that no one knew about or whether it's the process for making die out of the Chilazan that no one knew about, then I would be McHulif to wear. And the Ranzini Rabbi answers, I'll tell you what's new, nobody ever knew about this chemical process and nobody ever knew about this. So that back and forth is very, very different than the argument that you need a Messiah. However, I have to say that the great grandson of the

1:09:19of the Baisalevi, Raviosa Dolsava Vichik says it straight out and says the way I understand the Baisalevi and what I'm saying for myself is not is that you absolutely need a Messiah. Without a Messiah, you cannot introduce anything into Halal, at least in those cases when you need when you need Messiah. Now, there is absolutely fascinating a series of letters that went back and forth between Tutselmidechah and Rabbonim in Eratsis Rauh, Ravshmul Ariel and Ravshmul Avi Nair. And here Ravshmul Ariel says something fascinating about Ravshmul Ariel, and I think that it needs to be understood. Ravshmul Ariel said these words and he and this is one of the one of the great great gadolum of our generation. So it has to be taken very, very carefully and understood, but understand the implications of what he's saying if you're going to take it. He says that what

1:10:21Ravshmul Ariel is saying, and I'll quote it, but I'm quoting it in its translation, it creates a fundamental difficulty at the very foundations of the halachic world. For if Salvejik does not say that scientific proofs are doubtful and therefore they can't be relied on rather, even if the proofs are entirely clear with no doubt whatsoever as to their truth, they would still be of no use for halachic purposes and here it rings to me what Ravshmul Ariel goes on to say. Creates a disconnect between halachic reality, there is the true reality which we establish through real world evidence and then there is the halachic reality which takes into account only certain kinds of evidence. The halachic reality therefore differs from the true reality. He says Ravshmul Ariel very powerfully, is this Torah's image and that's a very, very strong challenge.

1:11:25Now the question of Masora and I'll say one story, maybe I'll say two stories. Ravshmul Ariel was a neighbor of ours for a while and I had the incredible's course to become very close with me. It was a Sunday, one of my children's bristles. And when Traylis, when we started working with Traylis, of course, talked to him about it. He came out to me and said, Parach, I'd like to get a set of your trill as to put on my image. So I asked him this about Sora. If you know her by Torsky's books, I don't know if you've read all, you know, I don't know, 150 of them, but if you know about his books, Masora, the tradition, what is Father grandfather, great grandfather, this is such an important part of his world. And so I asked him, I said, what about the Masora? He said, when I was a young boy, he said, we had in our family a big sadic named Ravmato.

1:12:26Ravmato knew everything, he studied everything, he was very pious and I relied on Ravmato, I trusted him completely. He said one day somebody showed up in our community and he was wearing Ratsindraewis. I looked at the Ratsindraewis and I wondered to myself, should I wear Ratsindraewis? And then I said to myself, Ravmato is not wearing Ratsindraewis. And I have so much respect for Ravmato that if it would have been the right thing to do, I'm sure Ravmato would have put it on and since he didn't, I didn't need to even ask any more questions about it. He said, but when you came to me and talked to me about your trillions, I didn't have Ravmato. And that meant that I had to be Ravmato. And I had decided for myself whether it was true or whether it wasn't true. And I came to the conclusion that it's severe.

1:13:31It's plausible that this is real trillions. And so he said to me something which stood very, it stayed with me very, very long. He said, you know, following the great people who came before us does not mean acting as they acted. But rather, you have to ask yourself the question, what would they do if they were here and now knowing what I know? And in the context and the place in the time that I am, he said, that's what Masora means. Masora means being true to what a person would have done in my situation. I thought that was very interesting, very interesting understanding of this. And maybe one last story on this topic because we can go on for a long time. You know, in one of my Gilgoulin, as I was in high tech, I did consultancy in databases, database work. And I had the great source of helping the Boston Rebue was then living in a frat. I had the great source of writing his database for him. It'd be surprised how much data a

1:14:35Ghasidir Shirebue needs to keep track of. And I had the opportunity to be in his house for many, many days. And of course, here and there we got the talking and I talked him about Triless and brought him a stack full of books and papers to read. He comes out on morning and he says, me, Bach, I was up all night. I couldn't sleep. The papers that you gave me seem to indicate to me that there was a real opportunity here to be McKaymon Mitsubedoreisa. The McKaymon Mitsubedoreisa that for 1300 years, nobody was able to be McKaymon. What is what an incredible truth to be able to be McKaymon something like that? A foundational Mitsubedoreisa. School can never go out with this one. But on the other hand, everything I am, I owe to my father, to my grandfather, to my Rabayim. Every picture that I have of them in my mind is of them wearing a talus, but a talus with white citizens. That's my Masora. That's my tradition. That's my identity.

1:15:38Who they were is who I want to be. He said, I have these two weights on my shoulder. I have the weight of being potentially able to be McKaymon Mitsubedoreisa and the weight of all of the generations of people who I love and respect so dearly and they're Masora. He said to me, Bach, I'm not going to tell you what I'm going to do, but I will tell you one thing. And I'm not going to tell anybody else what they should do. But I will tell you one thing. Everybody who deals with this issue needs to feel both of the weights on both of their shoulders. If you're going to wear talus, don't be misalzer on the Masora of all of the Sadikim that ever came before you that didn't wear talus. And if you're not going to wear talus, don't be misalzer on the fact that you are giving up on the possibility of keeping a Mitsubedoreisa. You're choosing to do so because you feel one weight is more important than the other weight, but it doesn't mean that the second weight that you're not listening to, that you're not leaning over to is not an important and important weight. I think that's something to keep in

1:16:42mind in this old discussion as well. Well, very nice personal stories there. And I'm sure you have many more as you said, but as we get towards the end of wrapping this up, I want to discuss something that we mentioned before. The modern changes since you wrote this book and things that just modern issues that arise or just how processes and things like that in Trayles. And also something that you mentioned is the Hiljos dying, which you didn't really have. So if practical issues come up, what happens? And I'm sure you have also stories and issues that you can mention to the listeners. So I'll tell you, before I forget, I just want to say two things that I'm not even going to go into, but everybody if they want to go on to the web page that we'll put up, things that have happened since the book, at least two things I would put into the book if it goes into it, if we change it. One of them is just over the last year, there's been a pinpr that came out detailing a fabric that was found in ancient Egypt, 3500 years ago.

1:17:44It's we call it the Voted Egyptian fabric. And you could take a look at the picture on the on the web page. This is from the time Ben Asua was in Mitzraiam. And it is die blue and it has blue fringes along the edge. Now, the blue die is indigo. And again, I'm sure you're your listeners know Kalaiwan indigo was supposed to look like Trayles, only a college baroque could differentiate between them. And we believe that this is a very, very strong proof because visually again, there are other molecules present and there are other things that that that can differentiate between Kalaiwan and Trayles. I will say something about that in a second. But this Voted fabric 3500 years ago, the middle of it is died indigo. The fringes are died with purex blue. So for people who want to ask me the question, why would the ancients

1:18:45ever do such a thing? They would never they would ever use Mirax if there's indigo. Whoever made this fabric didn't get that memo because he's using for the end, it happens to be an offering to the sky God, the vote is our of the sky. So you wouldn't you would you would want to find blue in there. But whoever this person was that made this offering couldn't maybe afford Mirax blue for the whole thing for whatever reason, but needs it to be blue. So he puts indigo in the middle. But he doesn't want to be Miss Alzel in the offering to his Avodazzara. So at least in the edges, he puts in blue from a Mirax, which would have been considered even by by the Gaian was always considered much, much more prestigious and expensive. That's one thing I would put into the second thing I would put in is Shikmona. And we've learned a lot, a lot, a lot about Shikmona over the last years. There's also a link to an article. But in Shikmona, you find these shards and some of them were boo, some of them are purple. And Shikmona was extremely, extremely

1:19:48important during the time of bias ratio. And the last thing I can't go without saying, over the last year, professors Zohar Amar has done extensive, extensive research into natural dying using Mirax and using plant-based indigo, Kalahila. You know, the Gamar Menachos talks about tests that can differentiate between the two. And for years and years and years, the argument was made if they're the same molecule, then they're kimp. You can never find a test that could ever differentiate between them. It's called a thought experiment. They never did the experiments, but the thought experiment says, if you have two things which are identical, if A equals B, right, then nothing can differentiate between them. And we always argued that that may not be the case. We don't know enough. Professor Amar has done natural dying using all kinds of different recipes that were available in the time for lie, urine, salt, honey, all kinds of different things, lemons. And he was able A

1:20:52to die glue from the Mirax, which is very, very important. Nobody can say that using natural methods, you can't die blue, Professor Amar is concluded absolutely with 100 percent certainty that you could have. But then he did natural dying of indigo, of plant-based indigo. And he did what he believes were the tests that are mentioned in the Gamara on both of them. The plant-based indigo faded. The Mirax-based indigo that was done with natural dying did not fade. So once again, you have these myths or these, I know, Shachasusha, I shouldn't call them myths, I'm sorry to denigrate. But you have these theories that there is no way to differentiate between them. It couldn't be. It ends up it could be. So you have to be very careful when you're working with Faxi and you're working with Conjecture. But now on to the more important things. What has gone on in Trelas' research over the last 40 years? When we started the Amuta, our mission statement says, we want to

1:21:53bring Trelas and everything that is related to Trelas, we want to promote education and we want to promote anything that has to do with the Mitzvah. Along those lines, we want to make available Trelas to anybody who wants to buy Trelas. Nowhere in our mission statement does it say we want to convince people to wear Trelas. The first part of our mission to increase the awareness of this incredibly important and beautiful Mitzvah again. And now I got a Mitzvah that it says, school, can I get call on Mitzvah? And I think we've had tremendous, tremendous success in this area. You know, when I was growing up, I knew nothing about Trelas. I heard once a year from some gone about Trelas and he talked about the machoques between the Rambham and the Ra'ivid that the Rambham holds and should be half a string, should be Trelas and the Ra'ivid holds. They should be whole string of Trelas and everybody in this was a bunch of, a trontalmide, a trontalmide, a trombone over the highest order and then there's 70 days and everyone was Mitzvah. What a goal.

1:23:00He knows this machoque. Whoever heard of a machoque between the Rambham and the Ra'ivid on how many strings you should be Trelas. A couple of weeks ago, I was in Lakewood actually. There was a 12-year-old who was clearing a khakira to me in the Ra'ivid's sheet of how to tie Trelas between his hasagos and his shayos and chuvos and what's the difference between the two of them and what did the Ra'ivid on the basis of a rather natural naïgun really hold about how you should tie the Treas. Today, people learn the suge of Trelas. Everybody knows about these machoques and people argue about how to tie Trelas. The Gmar minachos is not a Gmar that you run through anymore. The Perca Trelas, a couple of weeks ago, we're in Daphjomey a couple of months ago. It was Perca Trelas. Reveli Stofensky from NDY, it gives a fantastic fantastic Daphjomey shear that night of Voltsy Shabis he gave the shear from our factory. There were 500 people learning Gmar minachos Perca Trelas

1:24:03together with Reveli Stofensky that was then afterwards 60,000 people saw it. We did the tying for him. We showed him the different ways of tying Trelas. All of this is a suge of that people live and breed today in Gishivas. They learn these sugees. What was once, I don't even want to call it a mace mitzvah, but what was once something that was never accessible has become once again accessible. Again, whether you wear Treas, don't wear Treas, that in of itself is a tremendous, tremendous thing. What about dying Treas? During my years, I took off two years to try to understand how we could start to bring Trelas into a form that we could mass produce it. The first Trelas that we made, five sets of Trelas, I don't know, that took us six, eight months to make. Then we found some more Treas here. We found some more snails and we were able to make some more. In the first years, we were making 20, 30, 40, 50 a year.

1:25:08Barch Hashem today, we're making 5,000 a month, at least. That is not Hashem is growing and growing and he'll continue to grow. But to make 5,000 sets a month is very, very different than making 50 a year. And you have to have the processes to do it. So I spend a lot of time on it, but it's not easy because you have to balance three different things. A, you have to do what's good for the dye. And these are very difficult dyes to work through their processes of how they dye and what you have to do to them. B, you have to use what's good for the wool because if you make a dye, but then you put the wool in it and it becomes felted or it dissolves, you haven't done much. So you also have to take into consideration what's good for the wool. And then on top of all of this, you have to make sure that what you're doing is how lachically accept it. And so now you get into the issues of how lachically accept it. If you want to dye wool within the go, ask any in the go dye or they'll tell you the way

1:26:11to do it is to dip it, take it out, let it oxidize. Then put it in again, take it out, let it oxidize. You do this again and again and again and that's the way you get you get a good strong fast in the go. You see, but that runs into the question and how lach of marasheni. How do lach to do that? Or at least according to some post, can we not have to do that? We have a big macho case with the razzinare in mind, this as well. The razzinare believes that you're allowed to do marasheni at least in certain ways. And we argue with him and feel that we don't and we don't. We're mach meranda. And causes us a lot of grief. The other question is we thought maybe you could pump the dye through the wool. And so we started thinking about how we're going to get a pump to put the pump through the dye. But then we had one of the one of the rub on him came to us and said, no, no, no, no, you have a big problem with that because you have a vodasjad, we schmo, ko, a ko, a ko, a ko, all of these things. If you if you're letting the dye go with an electric pump,

1:27:14then you're going to run into these problems. So then we still, okay, so maybe we'll have a pump that's a hand pump that afterwards gets gets somehow or another, you know, it starts or primes a an electric pump. So the first pumps are done by a yard, a vodasjad, via scavros, via scavros. And then afterwards it'll be taken over by electricity and all of that. So we made this concoction of a partially electric pump and a partial, a partial hand made pump. We put the whole thing together and we started the dye going through it. The whole thing exploded. I got covered from head to toe with dye. I came home to my wife, blue completely. I thought, actually, I thought, I said, you know, I'm like those ancient warriors who used to cover themselves with blue, the picks, my wife actually felt I looked more like a smurf. But these were some of the challenges that we had all along the way trying to see on the one hand how we could improve efficiency. And on the other

1:28:19hand, how we could make sure that we didn't do anything with all of them. I mentioned before that we asked many post-gives these types of questions. At one point I asked Ravosha Vajks, who doesn't who doesn't, doesn't wear it since, of course, it's not. But I asked him a question. I said, forget about whether you wear our clothes. Don't wear our clothes. Would you be able to use ultrasound? Could I put the bath, could I put it in an ultrasound bath because that would, you know, create the potential of letting the dye become much more embedded or more quickly and better, more efficiently embedded in the matrix of the wall. Ravosha Vajks said, and he passed into me, he said, he thinks it would be okay. He had to think about it alone, but he said at first glance, I think that it would be okay. So these are questions that have never come up before in history. So wonderful, wonderful questions. And then, of course, you have the questions of how to tie trailers. How do you tie trailers? And here, I've seen in my life at least 50 different ways that people tie trailers.

1:29:27You have the methods of the Rishonam. And I think that you have this problem because the Gamara is extremely vague. And not even vague, it has principles that seem to contradict each other. So when the Rishonam try to understand each of them, how to tie trailers. Of course, you have the triple way machoques of how many strings should be tripped. As I said, the Rambam holds half a string which turns into one of eight. And the arrive it holds a full string which is two of it. And Tos felt and Rashi Hall that it should be half and half. And so you have these questions of how the strings should how many strings you should have. But then once you have how many strings you have, you have so many different principles and ways, whether you should have what's called a Hullia, which may be three twists of one color. Maybe it's seven twists of one color, seven between seven and thirteen Hullios, between seven and thirteen. All of these different things. And you have just an enormous enormous amount of possibilities. And when you have so many possibilities in in in in Halacha, you have some people who are haunted, but it's very don't. What am I supposed to do?

1:30:33And we get questions all the time. Just tell me what to do. And we don't want to answer that. We're not post-Khalalacha. We make trailers available in Rambam and Raived in in in in in Tosvot, Niputsk ishma, anything you could possibly want to be Mahadeh or to be Mahmir. And we also will tire trailers anyway you want. Our tires are expert in every possible way of tying trailers. And if we don't know the exact way that you want to you want a tire trailer, then we'll tell you to send us a picture and we'll tie it that way or send you the strings and you can tie. And here not I have to tell you, I see this. Not necessarily. It's a marketing headache. No question about it. It's the marketers. It's the issue of too many shoes, right? The marketers know you don't offer more than extra amount of possibilities when you're selling shoes because if not, then the person is going going to be frozen in the headlines. But I don't see this necessarily as a bad thing. And I have to say in this respect, I have to say that I argue with the of Tevger. Remember back I said that

1:31:37we want to be the opposite of Korach. Korach was a bar macho case and we want to be we don't want to make any macho case. But I think that the opposite of Korach is not to have macho case. The mission is says you have such a thing as a macho case. She'll only shame shame on you. But what's the opposite of that? The opposite of that is not macho case. It's not it's not no macho case. The mission is says the opposite of macho case. She'll always shame shame is macho case. She'll shame shame. And I don't know of any other Holocaust where you have 40, 50, 60, 70 different opinions. And that's the macho case. She'll shame shame. If I can go over to somebody who ties their trailers like the Benish Khai using Ramba and ask him, tell me why do you tie your trailers that way and say, that's interesting. I actually tie my trailers like Rev. I'm Ramgo using rife strings. And I'll tell you why I hold from that. And if you can tell me, you know, what about Ruf Shakhler tying and

1:32:41why does he do that? What are the principles? Let's go in the suit together. That's a macho case. She will shame shame. I mean, that's a beautiful thing to have. So listen, we can go on. We were ready over an hour and a half. We can keep going here for a long time. But I think at this point, I will link in the show notes to the website that we used to put some materials on a link to the book for those interested in purchasing the book, which again, it is really, really an enjoyable read. There's a lot more in here that we did not discuss on this episode. As you mentioned, there was really meant for a wide audience. And it really is very enjoyable. You learn a lot of things about a lot of different things. Now, do you want to tease your forthcoming book? Because we mentioned, I could say who is it? We mentioned Rev. Herzog and your interest. And you said, you really came to love him. And then we, you know, the book actually, the rarest blue talks more about a Herzog than we did in this episode. So do you want to tease the better Herzog? I can, I can, I can. My wife said a couple of, it's a long time ago already. It's six years ago. My wife said, we

1:33:43read Rev. Herzog's doctorate. We know Rev. Herzog's doctorate as much as anybody. So we should write a book on Rev. Herzog. Now, let me tell you, you have to listen to your wife, but we did not know what we were getting into. Rev. Herzog and we decided to write a biography of Rev. Herzog. But not only a biography of Rev. Herzog in the sense of what he did and he did so much. But we tried to understand what Rev. Herzog thought. We tried to get into his psaqa'lachal. We tried to get into his, his understanding of, of Jewish history. And where we stand at the Cross of Herzog was chief Rabbi of Herzog's. From 1936, after a cook died, till 1959, when he passed away, think of what the Jewish world went through. From 1936 to 1959, and he shepherded the Jewish, not just the Jewish people of Israel. He shepherded the Jewish people through these years. He was an

1:34:45unbelievable ish massa. He saved with his own hands thousands of Jews when he went after the Holocaust. And he went through Europe for six months, pulling young Jews, young children out of orphanages, out of Christian orphanages and bringing them not only to Israel but to anywhere, to save your religious Jews, irregist Jews, all types of Jews. He was involved in saving anyone he could, but specifically, Isheva students who were trapped in Europe. He was instrumental in the famous story of the Meir Isheva that went through Siberia to end up in in COVID-19 Japan. And then in Shanghai, you had Professor Mark Shapiro on a few weeks ago. I'm sure he must have mentioned the story of the Meir Isheva written extensively about that. And Rufursak had his part in that as well. He helped secure the transits of Khrossabir. So he was an Ishem Mass,

1:35:45but he was also a deep, deep, deep thinker not to mention an unbelievable, incredible Talmud Hachem. He was, the Rheidva's road about him, the Rheidva's road. He was the Akiva Ager of our generation. And I have to say about you and me, they're not saying those things as the joke goes. Not a lot of people get that kind of praise. And he was a close confidant and a close colleague of the great, great Gau neolum of the Rufurich, Michal Takuchinsky of Svipasra Frank. He gave a sheer to people the likes of Rufursak. Yoshen, in fact, I mean, so he was really unbelievable. Rufursak Feinstein has one of his two votes where he argues with Rufursak, but he calls him Moreno. Okay, Rufursak Feinstein is going with Rufursak Moreno. And what about the Piscayahuachadir he wrote? What about the Agunot that came out of the war? It's not thousands, tens of thousands of Agunot. He set up a bedst in an East, audacious in his Psaq al-Akhah together with the Rufur of David Kahana in the Old City, trying to figure out how you can free these people to allow them to live

1:36:46their lives again. So many, so many fundamental Piscayahuachadir he comes up with. What is a Jewish army? How does an army deal with shabas? Now, for the first time since Barqachba, you have a sovereign Jewish army. Are you allowed to go out defensive Beseg? Everybody believes defensive, you're allowed to go a chnefish, but is an army allowed to go out an offensive maneuver on shabas? Well, all these different questions and never came up. How do you have a Jewish state at the end of the day? Rufursak Glouc says about all this and I have to tell you, when I think about the russ that I had, we wrote the book. The book is right now in publication, Bezrahth Hashem, it'll come out through JPS. Hopefully soon we finished it. We finished it. We handed it in. We're now working on translating it into Hebrew. Yadiyot Svarim, we're going to put it out in Hebrew. But the is the host that one has to bring Rufursak to the world and the world doesn't know about him. You speak to people in America, in Israel everybody knows about him because his grandson's president, his son was a president. You go on Rufursak Rufursak at least you've heard of Rufursak.

1:37:51But in America, people never heard of Rufursak. I was a scholar in residence a couple of weeks back in a shul in downtown Manhattan a few months ago. And I told there were two professors, they're professors of Jewish history. And I said, you know, we just wrote a book on Rufursak, blank on their face. I said, I can tell by the look on your face that you never heard of Rufursak. Not to mention why would anybody write a write a write a book on him? And I think that Bezrat Hashem our book will help in some small measure to get this go on all on such an important figure in Jewish history and to get his who he was and how important he was. And his very, very radically different ideas on what it means to have a Torah state. Very, very different than almost everybody, different than the Charedim on the one side. And very different than the religious Zionists on the other side. And hopefully when the book comes out, I really hope that people will read it and be challenged by it and to say, you know what? I wonder what I think about

1:38:54that. Too much of the things that we take for granted. If I was in his situation, what would I have done? That's an interesting question. I hope that it'll be covered for Rufursak in First Memory. Okay, well, looking forward to that. And thank you, Dr. Sturman, for your good and the podcasts. Thank you, Nathya. I really, really appreciate you're having me on and giving you the opportunity to tell my story, even if it was a little bit long-winded. But I really appreciate the opportunity to reach your audience and to speak with them and to have hopefully a more robust debate where people can see all sides and people can see, I understand what they say and why they say it. I don't agree with it, but at least I understand what they're coming from. Thank you. Thank you very much.