The Jesus Discoveries

Hi, friends, this is Janet Partial.

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Now please enjoy the broadcast.

Here are some of these headlines we're watching.

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The president won a final award.

Americans worshiping government over God.

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17 years of Palestinian students in the Israeli's

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I bet it's my idea.

The whole sex is gone.

It's gone.

It's gone.

Hi, friends.

Welcome to In The Market with Janet Partial.

So glad we're going to spend the hour together.

Well, I've shared the story with you often

that the first year of marriage, my husband taught me

the joy and the thrill of the science of archaeology.

Like so many of you listening all across the country,

I thought it was nothing but dusty bones.

And I couldn't think of a more boring science.

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, it is in fact a science.

But through this wonderful guiding of my husband

who asked as our first Christmas together

for his Christmas present to be,

a subscription to biblical archaeology magazine.

And it was from that point going forward

plus a half a century where I've discovered

along with my husband Craig, how fascinating

the science of biblical archaeology is.

Because what it does is it substantiates

and affirms the historicity and the validity of the scriptures.

And to those skeptic seekers and cynics that are listening,

I want you to get a little closer to your radio this hour.

Because we're going to talk about how

those extra biblical archaeological findings

do a marvelous job of affirming what

is transcended, noable, objective, biblical truth.

And we're going to talk with someone

who knows a little something about this subject.

It's a joy to have Dr. Jeremiah Johnson back on the program

again.

He is an elected member of the New Testament Scholarly Guild,

Studiorem, Novi Testimente Societas.

And he serves internationally as president

of Christian thinker society.

Can I pause on that?

That I love the name.

And I'm going to underscore it because there

is unfortunately some really bad pee out there

for us as Christians that we are,

according to a newspaper in my town here in Washington, DC,

who later went on to retract the statement.

But initially said, we are poor, uneducated, and easy to command.

And unfortunately, we give them far too much material

to work with to have them arrive at that erroneous conclusion.

So the really matter, the truth of the matter

is when you come to faith in Christ,

not only is your heart transformed,

but your mind is renewed.

So we should be in historically the evidences there.

Some of the sharpest thinkers out there today.

And I've said it before, I'll say it again.

Coming to faith in Jesus Christ

is like watching the Wizard of Oz.

You go from black and white into technic color.

And suddenly there's form and order and purpose

that you could not see when you were still living

if I may use the phrase in darkness.

But the people who lived in darkness

have seen a great light.

And it's amazing how all kinds of things

come into clear focus once you come to faith in Jesus Christ.

But I love the way that the Lord gives us

these historical substantiations to let us know

that if we seek Him, we will find Him

when we seek Him with all of our heart.

So Jeremiah has done a lot in this area, by the way.

He loves the church.

He serves as the pastor of apologetics

and cultural engagement at Prestonwood Baptist near Dallas.

He's also senior fellow of Christian origins

at Dallas Baptist University

and is the author of several books,

including Body of Proof and the Peace of God Bible.

But he joins us today with his latest

called The Jesus Discoveries,

10 historic finds that bring us face to face with Jesus.

So this goes to the reason why I gave that little backdrop

because this is really about some of those archeological finds.

But Jeremiah, let me start with something

that you said in your book.

And I'm going to quote you.

You say archeology can ever prove the resurrection or faith.

But it can provide credible anchors.

Reminder that the people we read about

in the New Testament walked real streets,

faced real choices, and were buried in real tombs.

So I consider these to be anchors, breadcrumbs,

whatever word that we want to use

that really truly affirm,

not necessarily the modality of coming to faith,

although that may happen for some,

but definitely the affirmation of what was inspired

in Aaron transcended truth.

How did you get interested in this?

Janet, it's so great to be back on your program.

And let me just say how amazing you are.

Thank you for your unyielding stand for truth.

Thank you for loving truth.

Thank you for educating the body of Christ.

I'm just always so honored to be with you

and thankful for just your amazing example to all of us.

I got into archeology because in many ways I had to.

I was very interested to know,

do we actually have evidence outside of the Bible

that supports and confirms the truth claims

within the word of God?

And that was 20 years ago,

and just like Craig did for you,

it becomes addictive, truth is addictive.

When you start on the path of truth,

it just becomes addictive.

And I found myself in archeological digs

all over the world.

I found myself holding more Bible manuscripts

than probably anyone you've ever talked to by God's grace

and what's so amazing about the Jesus movement,

the Christian movement, it is based on historical fact.

And so other religions cannot say what Christianity can,

that archeology is Christianity's closest cousin.

What do I mean by that?

Christianity comes down to factual events

that first Easter weekend.

And if they really happen, Janet,

there should be archeological fallout

in the material world all over the Mediterranean

and guess what there is.

And so I have three triplets that are nine years old.

As you know, I have these majors.

So we have very interesting conversations.

And so they challenged me, they said,

Dad, tell us everything we can know about Jesus,

but you can't use the Bible.

You can only use sources outside the Bible.

And Janet, I decided to write a book to answer their question.

And it's full of pictures.

It's tight crisp chapters that take you on a journey

because guess what?

We can have 65 facts about the life, death, burial,

and resurrection of Jesus just based on the archeology

before we ever open our Bibles.

That's a powerful the Jesus movement is.

Wow, okay, so I have to ask you

because in curious minds want to know,

you have one set of triplets.

And of the one set of triplets, one's name is Abel.

And you dedicated this book to him.

How did the other two feel about that?

You know, it's caused an anarchy.

It's been the book of Judges in our home

that everyone does what's right in their own eyes.

Absolute arguments come out

because Jackson was born a minute later.

So he gets things after writers.

So like, Dad, can you write two books at one time

so we don't have to wait anymore?

That's the honest answer.

Wow, that's fantastic.

Well, I like this because I think it's an important conversation

because we are living somehow in this postmodern era.

We've got two problems on our hands.

First of all, I praise God we live here.

So delicious time to be alive is a believer

because it helps us to contend for the faith.

I wouldn't want to be anywhere else.

But we've got two problems.

Number one in the truth area,

truth is now markedly individualistic,

which is it's stupidity on its own.

I mean, it doesn't make any sense.

If you have one truth and I have another truth

then we cancel each other's truth out there

for there can be no objective truth

that applies to all people in all times and all places.

But the second part of that is,

as we learned in the Oxford Dictionary word of 2016,

we live in a post truth era

where truth used to be something we wanted desperately.

We could not be satisfied

until we found it truth with the capital T.

But now we've done a flip

where feelings supersede truth.

That's your truth, Jeremiah, that's not my truth.

If it makes you feel good, that's fine.

It doesn't make me feel good, therefore I reject it.

So with that, it's a cultural backdrop.

Talk to me a little bit more about archaeological evidence

in helping to substantiate the scriptures

because the presupposition in that is,

you want to know what truth is

as opposed to how you feel about it.

We've got a lot to talk about.

In fact, I can tell you right away

when you're with somebody who believes in Christian thinkers

like Jeremiah does, you run out of time back after this.

Have you ever felt abandoned by God

like He's forgotten you or simply stopped listening?

That's why I've chosen God hasn't forgotten you

as this month's truth tool.

Through the often overlooked story of Zachariah and Elizabeth,

author Robert Morgan shows us

that God always keeps his promises.

As for your copy of God hasn't forgotten you

when you give a gift of any amount in the market,

call 877-Janet-58, that's 877-Janet-58

or go to in the market with janetpartial.org.

We have the privilege of spending the hour

with Dr. Jeremiah Johnston, who is a scholar.

He is also the president of Christian thinker society

and he's a wonderful author joining us with his newest book,

The Jesus Discoveries, 10 historic finds

that bring us face to face with Jesus.

So I'm taking this out of order

because you do address this in your book

and I'm so glad you do.

You really give us a kind of Prima-Facia argument

and why we need to have Christian thinkers today,

which again is not an oxymoron,

but the world doesn't view us as thinkers

and again, that's a lot our problem,

not the world's problem.

So in this post-truthere in which we find ourselves,

when we look at archaeological substantiation

of the truth of scripture,

the presupposition in that is that the seeker,

the cynic, the skeptic, A, believes that truth is knowable

and that A, B, they're interested in finding it.

So see whether they feel good about it or not.

It's been substantiated.

So those are tumultuous waters we have to navigate

that maybe 30 years ago we didn't.

So how do we do that?

Well, we do that by always coming back

to what is true and truth corresponds with reality.

That's what's great about it.

It's really not hard to define truth.

Truth corresponds with reality.

And so you could get on a plane with me

and I could take you to the land of Israel.

I could take you to Jerusalem.

I could take you to the very spot where Jesus rose

from the grave on April 5, 80, 33.

And we can actually say, oh, the Bible's actually true

because it's about real people, real places, real events.

And this is why Luke, when he opens up his amazing sequel,

his actual, his first gospel,

he says that we can have a certainty of those things

that we believe that's Luke 1 verse 4

because it's based on evidence that corresponds

with reality.

Other religions cannot claim that.

Yeah, absolutely.

So for the believer, archeology should affirm

what we already believe herein lies also a challenge for us.

If you believe Dr. George Bynas research

and I do at the Cultural Research Center

at Arizona Christian University,

it's an abysmal report about our, as believers,

believing in an applied Christianity.

Our biblical worldview is abysmal

and particularly in the up and coming generation,

it's negligible.

So again, should this be used as a way

of helping to disciple believers

as well as used to encourage non-believers?

Absolutely, because what we're doing

is experiential archeology.

Let me make this very clear.

And I've had to do this on many podcasts recently.

Faith is always defined by its object.

We do not have faith in faith.

We have faith in an object and a set of facts.

Our faith is in Jesus Christ based on the fact

that the original Kiergama from 1 Corinthians 15,

3 through 7, that says Jesus died for our sins

according to the scripture.

He was buried in on the third day,

rose from the grave according to the scriptures.

And so Janet, why this matters?

There are a lot of wonderful Christians out there.

They're fine Christians.

So I can have Jeremiah.

I don't need your book.

I don't need to know any of this from my faith.

I just believe, well, you're more pious

than any of the New Testament writers

because none of them would have written a single word

of the 138,000 words of the Greek New Testament.

Had they not had evidence that Jesus did what he said

he would do, he would die.

The Son of Man comes to seek and save that,

which is lost.

He gave evidence, what I love about it.

Thomas was doubting Janet.

He said, you know, and he missed the resurrection appearance.

And he said, hey, if I don't see the nail scars,

if I don't see the side wound, I'm not going to believe.

And what I love about Jesus,

he doesn't shame Thomas.

He sharpens when he gives him evidence

and Thomas believes.

And that's what my book can do for people.

Wow, you brought up Thomas.

And I'm so glad you did because as reading your book,

I thought about this.

You know, Thomas didn't want evidence.

Jesus had been crucified, bodily resurrected,

walks through a door.

That should in and of itself have been a substantiation.

What Thomas wanted was super evidence.

So he had to put his hands in the holes and the side

and in his hands as well.

And that, that to me, I'm wondering

is something that we're dealing with now

in a post truth world, which is people don't just want evidence.

They need a kind of super evidence.

And in the end, you could have a legal standard,

a preponderance of evidence.

And yet some people are going to say,

that's still not enough for me.

At some point, evidence are not,

I mean, this is if you were arguing a trial

in front of a jury,

you can put all the evidence you want.

You could say, I've got an open and shut case,

but in that jury room, those 12 people

are going to look in a symptom way the evidence.

But at the end, it is going to be a heart decision

for every single one of them.

So the archeology is good.

Can it stimulate the person to get to the point

where the heart is going to be receptive

to the gospel message?

That's exactly right.

And the beauty is the skills of truth,

to hip in our favor.

But where I love your program, Janet,

is every day you educate us in our faith.

So deeper we go in Christianity,

the deeper we go in the Word of God,

the more rock solid it becomes.

And that's the delight of the Christian walk.

It's like, wow, I can actually walk to all these cities

that are mentioned in the gospel of Luke

and the book of Acts.

And I can see and experience do experiential archeology,

like you did with Craig, where it makes your faith alive.

And it allows you also to interpret the Bible

with more precision.

That's the amazing clarity that I give in my new book,

Jesus Discoveries, is thanks to the science of archeology.

We can actually interpret the scriptures with more accuracy

and then apply it to our lives with more power.

Yeah, amen.

So let me look at these.

Now, I'm going to tell my friends fair warning.

And you always hear me say this about books I love.

There are 10 historical finds that Jeremiah addresses

in the book.

This is not a fireside chat.

It's not a book review.

I'm not going to get to all 10.

But I do want to peak your curiosity

to the point where you go, I got to get the book.

I got to find out what the other ones are

so that you're really going to dive in.

We want to get you excited about the science of archeology

as part of your Christian apologetic

in the marketplace of ideas.

So I love stories about Aschewaries.

And you have to explain, first of all, to our friends

what an Aschewary is.

And then in particular, I remember when this story broke,

it was great canon fodder for much dinner conversation

at the partial household for quite some time.

But what is an Aschewary for starters?

An Aschewary, if you and I Janet lived in the first century

for about 300 years and late second-temple Judaism,

if I died, you would have buried me in a tomb.

And then one year later, on usually the anniversary

of my death, you would have collected my bones

and you would have put them in a family bone box.

Aschewary simply means bone collecting.

And you would place all of the bones

with so the family buried together, stays together.

And so if you go to the Mount of Olives today,

you'll see over 100,000 burial boxes.

And we'll get to why that's so important for a relative

of Jesus, James, so people need to stay tuned for that.

You'd think you've done this a time or two, Jeremiah?

Absolutely.

So picture this bone box.

Archaeological dig, they find one with the name Jamesonic.

Well, who is this James?

And why should you and I care?

We're going to talk about that when we get back.

We're visiting with New Testament scholar and president

of Christian thinkers, society, Dr. Jeremiah Johnston.

His latest book is called The Jesus Discoveries,

10 historic finds that bring us face to face with Jesus.

When last we met, we were talking about a bone box

called an Aschewary.

They do this archaeological dig.

They find one with the name of Jamesonic.

And we're going to talk about the name Jamesonic.

They do this archaeological dig.

They find one with the name of Jamesonic.

Now take the story from there, Jeremiah,

because I think it's fascinating.

It is fascinating because often, if you go

to the Mount of Olives today, you'll see these bone boxes.

And that's in Jerusalem.

You'll see 125,000 of them on the Mount of Olives.

But what's fascinating and provocative about this bone box

is unlike others, which would say like Jeremiah, son of Craig.

This one says, James, son of Joseph,

brother of Jesus, five words, 50 characters,

yet the implications are staggering.

And the epigraphers, that's a big word for those

that study these kinds of things that are incised on Aschewaries.

By the way, Janet, you're talking to someone who's probably

held more Aschewaries and been in more tombs than anyone

he's ever interviewed before.

I was in Emmaus recently filming and someone clapped.

And I said, why are you clapping?

And they said, Dr. JJ, we're clapping

to scare the snakes away from you.

You need to do this one take.

So I've been in a lot of tombs.

I've seen a lot of bone boxes.

There's only one that has this simple but powerful inscription

that authenticates the fact that James,

not only was the son of Joseph, but the brother of Jesus.

And why that's important as First Corinthians 157

tells us that Jesus in his resurrection appeared

to his brother James, who, according to John 7 verse 5,

did not believe in him during his life in ministry.

It took the resurrection that took evidence.

And yet Paul then refers to James as the Lord's brother.

And that's what this Aschewary says.

So based on this evidence, which was discovered in 2002,

which 99% of your listeners have never heard of until now.

I actually have pictures of it in my new book

that Jesus discoveries where I can show you,

we can actually, we know from Josephus

that James dies believing his brother is Messiah in 80, 62.

So we have to ask ourselves, I'm a dad of four sons.

None of my boys think the other one is the son of God.

I mean, what would it take for you to think your brother

was the Messiah, the sinless son of God?

It would take a lot of evidence.

And that's where this is cool,

the emergence, the intersection of evidence and faith

that comes together in the James Aschewary.

Well, and James is such an interesting story

because he goes from literally thinking his brother

is mentally ill to laying down his life for the cross.

So you numerate several reasons why this is important.

And I loved one of them in particular.

You said it helps us avoid the errors we see

in some popular books and documentaries.

You didn't name names, but please can you talk about this

because I'm so tired of standing in the checkout line

of a grocery store.

And suddenly they found the real Jesus

or Hollywood picks up on, you know,

some Dan Brown novel where he writes ex nihilo

of the world's worst mythology about Jesus.

So when we look at archaeological evidence,

does it not affirm and negate the mythology

of these people who are pushing another gospel?

1,000%.

And unfortunately we have the most gullible Christians

of all time.

And again, that's why your show in the market with Janet Partial

is absolute subscription material.

You have to listen to it, support it

because in this growing age,

I don't know if you're aware of this, Janet,

but I recently just spoke at the World Economic Forum in doubt.

Yes, in Davos, yes.

To all the people that are going to work

with the Antichrist someday.

There is a whole world out there

that is banking on you, relying on AI for your truth,

not for the Bible.

And that's very dangerous

because AI will actually just simply give you facts

that are not facts, they're fake.

And what we love about the Bible

is the Bible is timeless, absolute truth.

And back to James' journey from skeptic

to literally the leader of the church,

he becomes a pillar of the church,

but it was based on evidence.

And his death isn't just a historical data,

it's a testimony for us for the truth

of the resurrection of Jesus.

And that's what we need.

That's what our faith comes down to.

And his conversion, what I love about this too,

it was an emotionalism.

It was experiential.

His brother appeared to him alive after he was dead.

And from that moment on,

James gave everything for the gospel.

And so my hope in this that people

hearing this broadcast and reading my book

will give everything for the gospel too.

They'll go out like James, full throttle for Jesus Christ.

Amen. Amen.

Let me talk about another one.

And you talk about the inscription

that was nailed over Jesus' head on the cross,

King of the Jews.

You know, we kind of pass over that very often.

It's sometimes portrayed in one of the multiple films

you'll see that contain a crucifixion scene.

But there's real profundity in why those words

in particular were chosen.

Walk us through that.

Yeah, this is called in Latin,

the titulus, the condemnation.

And we actually have an exhibit where I travel

and I take people through the different posts

of how Jesus died first,

and what it cost, and what a great cost it was,

and how God demonstrates His love for us

according to Romans 5.8.

And I get to the titulus.

And this is important because Jesus

is condemned.

And Pontius Pilate says,

this is the King of the Jews.

And he writes it in three different languages,

Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic,

which Jesus spoke all three.

And this is pass over a quarter of a million people

would have been coming by to see these crucifixions

and to see Jesus.

And he says, this is the King of the Jews.

And if you recall,

the Pharisees tried to get him to change it.

They said, oh, you made a typo.

You need to say he said he was the King of the Jews.

And Paul comes back and says, no, what I've written, I have written.

Here's the power of learning about the titulus.

Romans 8.1 says that when you and I come to faith in Jesus Christ,

not based on anything we could do,

but because of His amazing grace,

there is now therefore no condemnation.

Do you hear that?

Those are in Jesus Christ,

because Jesus took all of our condemnation.

And so when we look at the titulus,

when we look at the fact that Jesus literally died

and was condemned and had a certificate of condemnation on us,

that's why Paul and Colossians 2.14 says,

he took all of our indebtedness nailed it to the cross

and we don't bear it anymore. Praise the Lord.

Amen and amen.

The hour is going far too quickly.

And remember, there are 10 historic finds

that Dr. Jeremiah Johnson talks about in his book.

We've just lightly touched on two,

but he does beautifully.

And he's alluded to this a couple of times.

There are photographs and their graphics

that will help you understand.

I hope you fall in love with the science of archaeology.

And like me, you'll be a convert to its importance,

particularly in your role as a Christian apologist.

That this is a science that substantiates transcended truth.

That's pretty spectacular.

More with Dr. Johnston right after this.

We live in complicated times.

And in the market, we're helping you interpret

complex cultural issues through the lens of Scripture.

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Become a partial partner today and you'll receive

these exclusive benefits called 877 Janet 58

or go online to in the market with Janet partial.org.

We are visiting with Dr. Jeremiah Johnston,

who is an elected member of the New Testament Scholarly Guild,

Sudiorum, Nobi, Testamenti, Societas.

He also serves as president of Christian Thinker Society.

He is the pastor of apologetics and cultural engagement

at Prestonwood Baptist Church near Dallas,

as well as Senior Fellow of Christian Origins at Dallas Baptist University.

He's a wonderful author and his latest book

is why we're having a conversation today.

It's called the Jesus Discoveries.

Ten historic finds that bring us face to face with Jesus.

All right, this is my biggest block in the hour, Jeremiah.

And it's why I wanted to say this conversation for this block

because you and I are having what my mother would call a delicious conversation.

They're the kind that make you think and they get you excited

about what you're talking about.

And let me just preface this by saying that whether you and I agree on this

is not a reason for disfellowship.

It is a reason for us to have more conversations

and to fall more deeply in love with the Word of God.

But I want to talk about the shroud of turn

because you're doing a lot of talking about this lately with an awful lot of people.

And let me, I'm going to give you the floor in a second

and give you the opportunity to give all the evidence,

which I think is fascinating.

I have a little bit of a problem with the shroud for several reasons.

Number one, I have a problem with relics.

I'm looking at some of the relics right now.

We've got the true cross fragments or spread across various churches.

The face cloth that covered Jesus's head, the crown of thorns,

which are supposedly in Paris and in Rome.

The holy chalice.

Thank you, Indiana Jones.

The cup used at the last dinner, the veil of Veronica.

The cloth used to wipe Christ's face.

The stairs, even that Jesus climbed to go to pilot's court are now somewhere in Rome.

And that doesn't count.

And I've seen these things.

The bones of Peter and Paul that are in St. Peter's Basilica.

The interruptong of St. Anthony of Padua.

That's in Padua, Italy, naturally.

The St. Catherine of Siena.

Her head is one place.

Her body is in another place.

I mean, and the Catholic church for the record is the primary possessor of the shroud right now.

I have a problem with relics.

Tell me where my thinking is wrong on that.

Well, I totally agree with you.

And let me just say you totally made your point.

I could just add one, you know, the three wise men.

And we know they're three because they're buried supposedly in Cologne, Cologne, Germany.

Exactly.

They're in the cathedral.

So I, you know, I have thousands of negative comments against me on YouTube

because I made the statement on a show that I have an allergic reaction to Catholic relics.

And so I am with you on that as a good Protestant.

I've been Baptist since before I was born.

I was Baptist since before I became a Christian.

And, but yet I am a historian and I'm addicted to truth.

And here's where the shroud of turn differs from the 20,000 different relics that the Catholic church has.

First, I had to learn that the shroud actually did not come into the possession

into the Catholic church until 1985.

That's very important to notate.

It was in private Christian hands until the mid 80s where it was bequeathed to John Paul II from the Savoy family.

I thought it had always been in Catholic hands.

What's fascinating to me is we actually don't give the Greek Orthodox enough credit

because for the first thousand years they protected the shroud from these relics.

They're killing all the Christians they could beginning in the seventh century.

But I digress.

And so the shroud is not a relic.

It is an artifact.

That's a very important distinction.

It has been studied, Janet, by 102 academic disciplines that have published more than 600,000 hours of peer-reviewed academic research.

And these are studies from men and women who are scholars.

They're not pastors and they're not theologians.

They don't have a theological axe to grind.

And what they have proven, and that's the first time I've used proven on your amazing show,

is they have proven that the image in the shroud, which contains the image of a crucified man that matches the biblical description of Jesus,

is not pain, it's not diet, it's not pigment, there are no breaststrokes,

the greatest scientific minds of the day.

And I trust me, I've traveled the world because nobody was more skeptical of the shroud than me.

And they cannot explain how there's an image in this cloth that has a 3D, encoded information on it.

And so I like to tell people, I believe the shroud is authentic because I'm not irrational based on the evidence.

Okay.

But let me go back to provenance.

This is big.

Anybody who knows, for example, if you're buying a piece of art, you want to know who had it initially.

You wanted to know where it came from, how you can tell if it's a counterfeit from the original.

Right in the book, and that's interesting to talk about in 1985 and the significance of that date being turned over to a Pope John Paul II.

But you talk about the fact that we think that it kind of showed up for the first time in France in the mid 14th century,

but there's compelling evidence you write that it was probably in the hands of the Eastern Orthodox Church earlier than that.

So it does raise the question of prominence.

Now, we know the Bible says they went into the tomb and it says the face cloth was neatly folded.

So it raises the question of provenance, who took it?

Why would they have taken it?

What happened to it?

And it's centuries earlier, if we do the Eastern Orthodox date, it's centuries either way before it shows up somewhere.

So where's the prominence in those hundreds and hundreds of years?

Thank you for asking me good questions that make me think and I don't have to go on autopilot on your show.

Thank you so much for that.

We actually have three terms for burial in the four gospels.

We have Sudarium, that's the face cloth that's mentioned in John 25 through 7.

We have in Matthew, Mark, Luke, the synoptic gospels.

We have the Greek term send in.

That would be the large cloth that wraps Jesus' body.

And then thanks to John's gospel, we have a third word.

Sonia, these are strips of linen that would cover the already covered body of Jesus with the fine linen cloth.

So we have three different terms used for burial.

Joseph of Verimathea not only volunteers his family tomb, but gives Jesus his very nice, finely woven burial shroud.

And Janet, we have hundreds of burial shrouds from the land of Israel.

Remember, Jews did not embalm their dead.

They did not mummify people.

And people's minds eyes don't think that a Jew would ever be mummified or embalm.

Now, you buried your loved one on the day of their death, period.

And that's why these two are herring Nicodemus and Arimathea to bury Jesus.

And so, likely Arimathea and his family keep the garment.

Remember, when you read it chronologically, and again, this is the power of the Bible,

you can read it a hundred times and see something new every time.

It wasn't until John saw, and I love that, 11 times in just John 20 alone,

we're told people see things that cause them to believe.

So, again, this is the power of evidence and actually having evidence that fuses with our faith.

John saw the Athonia.

He saw the Sudarium.

Now, this is totally speculative, but I said this at a conference with an archaeologist in a Bible scholar Sunday night.

I believe that Jesus' face was still glowing in the cloth.

I believe there was a residue of signature resurrection on it because something caused them to see these cloths and believe.

So, long story short, it shows up in Eusebius.

He's our great church historian.

We know it's in Edessa.

In the sixth century, we know that it's in Constantinople.

And then, thanks to Max Fry, a criminologist, we actually have pollen that traces all the places we know from church history where the shroud has been.

It's just been known it by different names.

It wasn't known as the shroud of Turin until it went to Turin Italy in 1578.

And I've watched your lectures and they're absolutely fascinating.

And you talk about the blood and the reverse image and the width marks on the back.

And the fact that there is the blood type even, a very rare blood type.

In fact, talk about that.

It's AB and why is that significant?

33 scientists go to Italy, Janet in 1978.

They're having alcoholic beverages and the halavi of the hotel because they're all joking about what a hoax the shroud is.

And one of them famously said, give me 15 minutes in the scientific method and I will prove the shroud is a fraud.

Well, as soon as they began their scientific testing, nobody was laughing.

They were so fascinated they got caught out and slept next to the shroud.

Hematologist Helen and Adler were there.

The blood type is human blood.

It's type AB blood, which is a Semitic blood.

And it's a blood that stays red because it turns out I didn't know this when our bodies are traumatized.

When they experience physical torment, the red blood cells break down and produce extra bilirubin that secrete,

which causes the blood to stay red all these years later on the shroud.

And so it's human blood.

It's type AB blood and it's blood that according to a recent hematological study, and I point all of this out in my book, Jesus Discovery,

it has high levels of ferritin.

That means Jesus was experiencing not only dehydration, but organ failure.

And it's fascinating.

And that is what caused one of those 33 scientific members, Barry Schwartz, who's now in, he's dead.

I hope he's in heaven.

He was a Jew who was skeptical 17 years after studying the shroud.

When all of the blood types came out, that is what convinced him.

It was Jesus' burial cloth.

And I can only hope that he placed his trust in Christ and that he's in heaven now because of it.

But Barry published an article for me on five things.

Evangelical Christians get wrong about the shroud, but it was the blood type that caused him to be convinced.

And by the way, he's the guy who literally gave the Ted Talk on the shroud.

So he was convinced on it based on the blood type.

Yeah, you write about that in the book, which is absolutely fascinating.

So, so many questions on this.

So, I love the way that all of the science, and by the way, it was at one point disproved to now modern science

because of our techniques has now said, well, there's a lot of fear that makes us think that maybe this is substantiated.

The Romans perfected the art of crucifixion.

Yeah.

So, I do not, first of all, I remember when a Dr. Bezel Jackson was traveling the world with the shroud.

So, this conversation has been going on for a long period of time.

And I have to tell you that I know the shroud exists.

I believe that you could carbonate the linen.

I think there's no question that there's blood that's appropriate.

I think that the fact that we see crucifixion marks, as you write, they had this art down.

Where the nails wouldn't have gone just in the palm.

They would have gone through the wrist and the hand that would be the only way you could substantiate the weight that would hang down on the cross.

All of that, I think, is undeniable.

The question, I have two questions on this, Jeremiah.

And then it's number one.

So, there were people who were being crucified during that time period.

How can we know definitively that this was the Christ as opposed to one of millions that the Romans were crucifying?

And number two, you have the shroud that says, this is the man in the shroud.

If you believe that, how does the man in the shroud give evidence to an empty tomb?

You have proof that he's died.

If you believe the shroud, do we need proof?

Do we need that Thomas extra super evidence of the resurrection?

Let me get your thoughts on that when we get back.

More with Dr. Jeremiah Johnson after this.

We're visiting with Dr. Jeremiah Johnston, who is a wonderful Christian apologist.

He's the president of Christian thinker's society.

He's written some excellent books in his latest, doesn't disappoint.

It's called the Jesus discoveries, ten historic finds that bring us face to face with Jesus.

Can I make just a suggestion?

Because you know, I care for you.

And I want us to go out and just occupy that marketplace of ideas.

This is a great book for your skeptical relative, your seeking friend, your wounded friend who said,

I don't want anything to do with the church.

I can't believe it anyway.

It's just a concoction written by oral tradition with a bunch of ignorant Bedouin shepherds.

Read this and get them to start thinking.

That's the beginning of this journey of seeking him.

You know, we think we find God.

He's been pursuing us all along.

And this kind of archeological information is part of his pursuing us.

I consider it just a great blessing.

So going back to the Shroud of Turn again, absolutely fascinating conversation.

So we know that this was perfected by the Romans.

We know that there were multiple people.

There were no that were the one Jew that was crucified.

What do you think it is singular, singularly about this particular burial cloth, plural,

that would say excited.

The blood type you could say there was others that might have had a B.

But what is it about the unique?

If you looked at all of this stuff, others could have been crucified, others could have been

scourged, others could have had the piercings in their wrists in their hands.

Is there a singular aspect of the Shroud where you go, whoa, that wouldn't have been common?

Absolutely.

And I can already tell I'm making a shroudy out of you, Janet.

That's the term for it.

And by the way, my book does have pictures in it.

I pay it off of every archaeologist around the world to get permissions to have these photos.

And I'm delighted that my nine-year-old boys were reading it.

So it's not written for scholars.

It's crisp.

It's like, hey, here's these discoveries.

And here's how Jesus applies to your life and all of them.

My area of expertise, you know, PhDs, we know a lot about a little.

And the little that I know a lot about is crucifixion in the Roman Empire.

We have 21 different victims that we have recovered with, that were nailed to the cross.

Most of them have broken bones, broken shin bones, broken femurs, broken fibus.

It's fascinating that the man who's crucified in the Shroud has no broken bones.

He has a separated septum, which is a broken nose, but that's not actual bone.

What's fascinating also about the man of the Shroud is there is a sidelined through rib five and six that has blood that is post mortem blood.

The serum is already separated from the blood itself, meaning that this blood was after he had already died, which is fascinating.

Then what puts it beyond all doubt for me is we have only one record of a crucifixion victim wearing a helmet of thorns.

And on the Shroud victim, there are 30 to 50 puncture marks of a helmet, not a sweatband, not a wreath, a helmet of thorns.

And I have a replica of this that is so moving when I have the opportunity to preach.

These Bethlehem thorns, Janet, they would grow to three to four inches long when they drive their as sharp as nails.

And that is what is placed on our Savior's head.

So without a doubt, what puts it beyond all doubt to me that it is Jesus of Nazareth.

This first we have to establish that the Shroud is 2000 years old and we do that.

But then why do we know it is Jesus? Well, it is because no one was crucified in the demonic way that he was six out of ten victims never even passed the whipping, the flagrum, the flogging.

We read John 19, one in Pilate had Jesus flogged and just kind of skipped right by that.

We don't realize Jesus likely endured 700 lashes and lost one-third of his blood volume.

It was a miracle he could even make it to the cross.

He carries what is called the cross meme, the petibulum.

I love the passion of the Christ movie by Mel Gibson.

The one thing he got wrong was Jesus did not carry the whole cross. He only carries the cross meme.

No one could have carried the whole cross with it in five-hundred pounds.

It is amazing. We actually have matching abrasions on the top right shoulder and the left lower shoulder where Jesus carries the cross.

And then we have a Travertine signature on the Shroud. We have Paul and on the Shroud.

We have limestone in the tip of the nose, the knees, and the feet that only comes from the grottoes of Jerusalem where I've been.

And then we have 38 of the 58 Pauline spores.

We have a lot of Pauline here in Texas where I lived where God has a second home by the way.

And we're all allergic to these Paulines.

And yet 38 of the 58 Paulines, according to the criminologist Max Fry, only bloom in Jerusalem and springtime.

And so there is a preponderance of evidence.

And so I want to make one thing clear because you asked a phenomenal question before the break.

The Shroud is the moment of Jesus' resurrection from the dead.

The blood absorbs all the way through. His body is wrapped quickly by Arimathea and Nicodemus.

The women on Sunday morning are hurrying to the tomb because they're going to continue the burial process, which they would sit Shiva for seven days.

They would keep spicing the body because they would keep grieving for seven days.

The women are amazed because when they get there Janet, the stone that weighed 2,750 pounds has been moved away.

The tomb is empty and yet the shroud remains.

Now this is brand new research. I'm not sure on any other show.

But we actually have ancient documents that talk about the fact that tomb robbers would often rob tombs,

leave the decaying corpses behind but steal the expensive shrouds to go sell.

What do we have? It's in reverse in the gospels.

There's no body in there. Jesus has been resurrected.

But this fine linen garment has been left behind.

And that's where Mary comes along and says, I have seen the Lord John 20.

So you answered my question and I'm going to play the role of the skeptic as able to say, you spend 20% of your time preparing your case, 80% of your time preparing your opponent's case.

So I'll argue for the opposition on this.

Okay, great. You have a dead man.

I don't know that this proves you have a risen savior.

And what you're saying is that based on some of the things the shroud seemed to indicate that could have only happened in a resurrection.

So let me just ask one of the question and that is, I struggle again in this area because I love the reminder to us that

blesses are those who believe and have not seen.

I want to make sure that I don't come to faith because of a relic.

I want to come to faith because of the power of his word.

I, for example, do not believe we will ever find the contents of the Ark of the Covenant.

You know, this community is real. You can't dig under the temple mount because they're afraid the Ark might be buried there.

And if that happens, well, game over, no two-state solution.

So there are parts of me that think God doesn't want me to look at a relic.

He wants me to look at him.

So I do not deny all the historicity that wraps itself around this amazing piece of cloth that may just may be an indicator that this was Jesus' burial cloth.

But more importantly, I want people to know Jesus, the resurrected savior.

And there we have to somehow get people to fall deeply in love with this word because that doesn't need archaeological substantiation.

We're already told it doesn't return void.

I could talk to you for 10 more hours about this Jeremiah.

Thank you so much.

And again, we've skated across the top of his book.

Again, I'm going to underscore Jeremiah said this isn't written for scholars.

It's written for every single one of us so we can understand it.

More importantly, it's written so you can give it to a friend who's very much skeptical about this Jesus of Nazareth.

And whether or not he physically died and rose.

And that tomb in Jerusalem does in fact remain empty to this day.

That's the big head on Jeremiah.

Thank you.

Thank you, friends.

We'll see you next time on In the Markets with Jennid Partial.