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Hi, it's Phoebe.

This fall, I'm going on the road with a big experiment.

It's a brand new live show all about me and my family and secrets.

It's totally different from anything we've done before.

We're going to announce the full run of TorreDate soon, but first, we've got a couple of special

shows coming up in just a few weeks.

I'll be in Durham on September 16th, at the first place we ever did a live show, Noterco,

and in Portland, Maine on September 18th.

We've never done a show in Maine.

You can find out more at this is criminal.com-slashlive.

I hope to see you very soon.

Penny was working at her parents' funeral home.

She was divorced.

She had two kids, and her dream of making it big in Hollywood had not happened, and she

was working in basically rural Texas at a funeral home.

I think she'd given up on finding love again.

A man named Paul Scalneck came into the funeral home one day for a funeral, and he was just

this incredibly dashing guy.

Journalist and author Pam LaKolov.

He was not classically handsome, but he was attractive.

He wore beautiful three-piece suits.

He wore jewelry.

He was incredibly charismatic and really sort of swept her off her feet.

In the spring of 1977, when they met, Paul Scalneck was 27, 60 years younger than Penny

Rogers.

He is sending her flowers and giving her jewelry.

He tells her that he is an executive, a very high-up executive at Southwest Airlines,

and at the time Southwest Airlines was like the cool airline.

The stewardess had go-go boots, and it was a place of young energy, and he sort of embodied

that.

It wasn't too long.

I think we were talking just at most two months before they went to Las Vegas and got

married.

Paul moved into Penny's condo with her and her two children.

Every morning, he would grab his briefcase, kiss Penny, and tell her he was heading out

for work at Southwest Airlines headquarters in Dallas.

He goes and he flies up there every morning, has his important meetings and flies back,

and at the end of the day, he always comes walking down the walkways, or loosening his tie,

and comes in and makes himself a drink.

So he has this life of an executive, and on the weekends, he takes Penny and the kids

on these lavish trips.

They don't travel far.

They're just going to Dallas and Austin, but they're staying at the finest hotels, and

he's ordering champagne and chocolate-covered strawberries up to the room.

And he just seems to have the promise, I think, of a better and more exciting life.

But Penny's daughter, Lisa, who was about 14 at the time, started noticing little things

that she thought were odd.

Paul would steal the robes from the fancy hotels where they stayed.

And every time he drank crown royal, which he often did, he saved the purple velvet bag

it came in.

And probably most importantly, he keeps a handgun on him at all times.

Now it's not unusual in Texas, especially in the 70s, to have a gun, but he always has

it with him, like even when they're driving, he's stashing it under his seat.

Paul started leaving town for a few days at a time on business trips.

And then, in the spring of 1978, about a year after he and Penny had gotten together,

he didn't come home for a month.

That may, an investigator in the Harris County DA's office in Houston, a man named Kenny

Rogers got a call.

And the voice on the other end of the line is Paul Skellneck, and Paul was somebody he

had gone to military school with, sort of a junior college in New Mexico, about 10 years

prior.

And Skellneck says to him, Kenny, hey, you know, it's me.

I'm in jail and I'm wondering if you can come get me.

This is very surprising news.

And Skellneck says to him, I've got some information in a case that I think you'll be really interested

in.

I'm Phoebe Judge.

This is criminal.

Kenny Rogers hadn't seen Paul Skellneck in years, but the last time they had spoken, Paul

was a police officer in Austin.

I think because he had been a police officer just a few years ago, and because they had

gone to school together, there was just this implicit trust that there must be some misunderstanding.

And he just had to go to the jail and get this figured out.

Why was, why was Paul Skellneck in jail?

So Paul Skellneck was in jail because he had a habit of writing hot checks.

He had started off as an Austin police officer in the early 70s.

And he started writing hot checks for these small amounts.

And he was never prosecuted for this.

He was just sort of quietly shown the door.

And after that, that's how he made his living in the 70s.

And it started off small, be like a $50 check at the grocery store that was bad.

And it escalated from there.

He'd never been an executive at Southwest Airlines.

At one point before he met Penny, he spent time in Florida, where he said he was a salesman

for a Scandinavian furniture company, and took pre-orders for expensive furniture that

didn't exist.

He was arrested for that, but only got probation.

After he met Penny in Texas, he kept passing bad checks.

One of them was for a microwave he'd bought Penny for Christmas.

So these financial crimes had caught up to him, and he was in the Harris County jail for

those.

And that's when he called his old friend Kenny Rogers at the DA's office and told him

he needed to come and get him, that he had some information that Kenny would be interested

in.

It involved a case that had taken place a year earlier.

In May 5, 1977, Houston police had responded to a call from a bar manager, about a man

named Jose Compost Torres.

He'd been drinking most of the day, and had gotten into a fight after refusing to leave.

After the officers picked him up, they drove him to an isolated part of the bayou, known

as the whole.

One rookie officer later reported seeing other officers beat Jose, and then seeing one

of them push Jose into the bayou, saying, let's see if this wet back can swim.

Jose Compost Torres was found dead three days later by a tour boat operator.

The case was all over the news.

And there was an incredible uproar, of course, about this.

There was even more of an uproar when the officers who did this really weren't punished.

It really got slaps on the wrist.

So when Cinco de Mayo arrives the following year in 1978, there is a, what turns out to

be a riot at what begins as a very peaceful gathering, just to celebrate Cinco de Mayo,

where people are chanting Jose Compost Torres's name, and they're asking for justice for him.

And in the course of that, there's property damage and some people are hurt.

There are many people arrested, and this is a big embarrassment to the city.

And the city leaders and Houston police end up pinning all of this on three sort of

shaggy-heared activists.

And instead of acknowledging that this uprising came out of years and years of mistreatment

at the hands of Houston police for Houston's Latino population, they blamed it on these three,

quote unquote, outside agitators.

They became known as the Moody Park III.

And so they were put on trial in 1978.

There's no evidence that credibly shows that they convinced hundreds to riot and to cause

property damage.

And the DA's office is under a lot of pressure to get a conviction.

And it just so happens that Paul Skellneck was in the county jail at that time.

Kenny Rogers rushed to the jail, signed Paul out, and took him to the special crimes bureau

to talk.

Paul told him that he'd managed to get one of the members of the Moody Park III, a man

named Thomas Hershey, to start talking to him.

And when prosecutors heard what Skellneck had to say, they were very intrigued and wanted

to work with him.

Kenny and Paul developed a routine.

Most days, Kenny went head to the jail, take Paul out of protective custody, and drive

him to the special crimes bureau in an unmarked car.

And there Skellneck would sit there, and he had all the wonderful things that you don't

get normally when you're being held in jail.

He had ice cold air conditioning during the summer.

He had fresh coffee.

He had some privacy in the bathroom.

So he already was getting some perks.

Peter spoke to him, and he told the mystery that not only had Tom Hershey supposedly confessed

to him, this is something that Tom Hershey would later vigorously deny, but that Tom Hershey

and his compatriots had thought this out long ahead of time, that this was a premeditated

act.

And that was a really, really important detail because for inciting a riot at that time,

at least in Texas statute, you had to have that premeditative element, and he supplied

that.

Did Paul Skellneck get anything from the prosecutors any type of deal?

He did, so he was released.

There were no conditions to that.

And he was just supposed to keep in touch with Kenny Rogers until he had to deliver his

testimony at the Moody Park 3 trial.

The trial began in the spring of 1979, and the prosecutor's case wasn't looking good.

Some of the details one officer described in court weren't included in his written report

about the riot.

It also came out that at the same time that some witnesses had said they'd seen the Moody

Park 3 in the park, other witnesses had seen the Metabarbeque.

And then Paul Skellneck took the sand.

The testimony was pretty detailed, and it told this whole narrative about how the Moody

Park 3 had set out to do this, the ways in which they had convinced young people to carry

out this riot, how they had brought weapons with them, they brought alcohol with them according

to this story.

To be clear, there is zero evidence that corroborates any of this, but he said this on the stand.

And I remember when I interviewed Tom Hershey, he described sitting at the defense table,

and his life is on the line, they're facing 20 years in prison and felony charges.

And he said, you know, I knew that cops sometimes lie on the stand.

I knew that our court system wasn't perfect, but watching how easy it was for him to lie

was something I'll never forget.

Tom is Hershey was found guilty, along with the other two members of the Moody Park 3.

After his testimony, Paul Skellneck was allowed to continue living outside of jail.

Kenny Rogers was meant to keep an eye on him.

Kenny Rogers had this very, very simple beach house on the coast, and he wasn't there a

lot because he was a workaholic.

So Skellneck, this is a very unusual arrangement, obviously, he's sort of the caretaker.

He's fixing things around the house and kind of watching after it while Kenny isn't

there.

And Kenny Rogers thinks, this is a pretty good setup.

I know where my witness is, and I'm getting something out of it in return.

He was paying him as well.

And again, very unconventional, but that's what they did.

So Kenny Rogers goes to the beach house one weekend.

He finally gets away from work.

And he notices that the house is very lived in, and that things are a skew and just things

are a mess.

He realizes that Skellneck has been doing more than just being a handyman in a caretaker,

but has really set up camp in his home and has not been taking good care of it.

So he tries to get in touch with Paul Skellneck and finds that he can't figure out where Skellneck

is.

And this is obviously very upsetting.

He leaves an angry note on the refrigerator and he goes back to Houston.

When he goes back to Houston, he gets a phone call from a man who lived in Houston, who

tells Kenny Rogers that Skellneck had made some charges on his credit card when Skellneck

stayed with him during the Moody Park 3 trial.

And at this point, Kenny Rogers realizes that his star witness has committed a crime

while he was being a state witness in the Moody Park 3 case.

And so he calls the sheriff in the area where his beach house is and he says, you need

to go to my house and you need to see if this man is there and if he's there, you need

to arrest him.

And when he went to the Madaguarda County jail, this was where his beach house was to pick

up Skellneck, who'd been picked up by the sheriff's department.

He was astonished to find that Skellneck was wearing all of Kenny's clothes and he was

holding a paperback of Kenny Rogers' that he was reading.

And he sort of looked at Rogers and said, what's the problem, Kenny?

And Kenny at that point is furious and feels that, gosh, I gave this guy every chance

and he took advantage of this and my patience is up.

After a 60-day sentence, Paul Skellneck was extradited to Florida for violating the terms

of his probation there after he'd been caught posing as a salesman for Scandinavian furniture.

He was released after just a few months and didn't leave affording address.

His wife, Penny Rogers, who'd been corresponding with him while he was in jail in Houston, couldn't

find him.

When she decided to file for divorce, she had to place a notice in the newspaper to let

him know.

About a year later, Paul was married again and in jail again for scamming a woman he'd

been having an affair with.

And so he's sitting there in the jail.

It's really, really hot.

It's the summer.

There's no air conditioning.

And one day he goes to this bank of phones and he makes a call to the state attorney's

office and he says, I've got some information on some cases here that I think you'll be

interested in.

And prosecutors go and meet with him and he begins feeding them the details of some kind

of low-level drug crime cases.

These are various men who are in the jail who are awaiting trial and there's not quite

enough to get a conviction, but he fills in the blanks.

He sort of gives them what they need to get a conviction.

Did anyone think, well, this timing is a little suspicious.

You know, it was so much a part of the culture of the Pinellas County jail in Clearwater where

this all took place.

This was a fairly common occurrence at the time and detectives had the run of the jail.

They could come in as they pleased to interview anyone who is being held in the jail.

And these are all people who are being held for the most part, pre-trial.

There's the presumption of innocence.

They're awaiting trials, different than prison.

And they could come in and they would do this where they would come in and ask people

who are facing very long sentences, hey, you know, what did your cell meet tell you?

And there was the implicit understanding.

It wasn't overt most of the time, but there was the implicit understanding that if these

men helped prosecutors make their case that there would be some kind of reward at the

end.

Paul had been facing a five-year sentence for his crimes, but after bringing these confessions

to prosecutors, he was only given probation.

And then, less than five months after he had been released, Paul was arrested again for

theft.

Less than a week after his arrest, a 12-year-old named Karen Parker went to the Pinellas

County Sheriff's Office with her parents and made a report that Paul Scalnick had sexually

assaulted her.

When 12-year-old Karen Parker reported her sexual assault, she was given a polygraph exam

to see if she was telling the truth.

This was when we, back then, people believed that polygraph exams were indicative of that.

We now know they're far more problematic.

So Karen Parker, a 12-year-old girl, is given a polygraph exam, Paul Scalnick never

is.

Karen Parker passed the polygraph.

There were also two eyewitnesses who said they'd seen glimpses of the assault.

Paul Scalnick was charged with looting the severe conduct on a child under 14, a felony

with a possible sentence of 15 years in prison.

Well, this comes at a really inconvenient time because he is promised to testify in

more cases and they've seen how effective he is on the stand.

And at that point, when he would get on the stand, all he had to say was that, you know,

I was a former police officer, law enforcement is in my blood and I got in a little bit of

financial trouble, but I'm a good guy.

That really changes if he had to say that he had molested a child.

The state attorney's office dismissed the charges.

They never prosecute him and Karen Parker is made to feel that no one believes her.

In fact, the ripple effect this has, even within her own family, when this happens, is

that she's not believed she's seen as a troublemaker and she ends up running away from

home and told me she didn't trust anyone for a long, long time.

Paul pleaded no contest to the theft charges and prosecutors gave him a deal.

Instead of the potential 15 years, he could serve for the charges he would only receive

five and credit for time served.

The prosecutors requested that he remain in jail rather than go to prison while he served

a sentence.

They said that if he were sent to prison, he could be in danger because there were men

there that he'd helped to convict with his testimonies.

They prosecutors know that if Scalnick is sent to prison, if he's convicted and sent

to prison as most of the people around him will be, he's not valuable to them anymore.

People who are in prison have already been convicted.

In the jail, he's with men who are awaiting trial.

He's there as someone who can endlessly help police and prosecutors put together these

cases.

We'll be right back to listen without ads.

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By the summer of 1983, word had gotten around in the Pinellas County Jail that Paul

Scalnick was an informant.

Because of that, there were concerns for his safety and he was moved to a cell block

that was separated from the general population.

It was for defendants with high profile cases.

Not long after he'd been moved there, he let prosecutors know that a man on his cell

block named Freddie Gaines had confessed to him.

So Freddie Gaines was a young man, lightweight boxer who was working as a handyman in the

early 1980s.

He ends up getting in a bar fight and there are many, many witnesses to this, what ended

up happening in the bar that night.

But he gets into this bar brawl with this other man.

And at the end of that fight, one man is dead and one man is alive.

Freddie is alive, the other man is dead.

And there's this sort of Rashomon effect of what all the witnesses who saw this remember

about who brought the knife, who first used the knife, who did what.

And there's no agreement on what happened.

We just know that this man was killed.

So Freddie goes to stand trial and he could have faced something like 15 years for a crime

as terrible as it is.

Of course, someone lost their life, but this was quite obviously a spontaneous event that

happened.

Paul Skellant gets on the stand and he claims that Freddie Gaines planned this whole

thing out, which on its face is curious.

You would think if you're going to have a premeditated murder, you wouldn't do it in

front of all these witnesses.

But anyway, he says this was a premeditated crime.

And then he goes on to give that detail, that kind of detail that's going to really stick

with jurors.

He said that Freddie boasted about killing this man.

And he not only boasted about killing him, he boasted about the way that he did it.

The victim had been stabbed in the heart.

And Paul Skellant testified that Freddie had said that he should have been charged with

quote, open heart surgery, sort of with a laugh.

This very cold blooded kind of thing.

And that testimony helped not just to convict Freddie and he was guilty, of course, of killing

this man, but to get this extremely punishing sentence.

So Freddie received a life sentence and is in prison to this day.

One of the things that makes no sense about how he could have obtained these confessions

isn't just how difficult it would have been physically within the jail to get them,

but why?

I mean, if your life is on the line and you are three weeks out from a trial, why would

you tell anyone, you know, anyone in your life, much less a perfect stranger that yes,

you did this and here are the details.

And by 1983, everybody knows he's a snitch.

This is no secret.

One man even told a guard he would not be in the same cell as Paul, quote, because I

knew who he was and what he did.

You know, a question many people have asked me is how did he survive all this?

You know, there's this saying snitches get stitches, right?

And he emerged unscathed.

Well, the reason for that is because he was being held in protective custody, meaning

that he couldn't just mix with the other guys.

If he wanted to go to the prison yard, if he wanted to take a shower, he had to be accompanied

by a corrections officer.

And so he was asking people to believe that he was walking past the cells of strangers

or sometimes he said they would seek him out because they thought he was so knowledgeable.

And here they are about to face trial and that they would confess everything to him and

things that were self-incriminating.

I think it can be hard for people to understand why a jury would believe these stories.

And something that's important to remember is that when a prosecutor puts someone like

Paul Scalneck on the stand, they are appearing in a line of highly credible witnesses.

You know, the first witness in a murder trial might be the lead investigator who showed

up to the scene of the crime.

Second witness might be the paramedic who can describe what happened or the medical examiner.

Someone like Paul Scalneck appears within that context and he is sponsored by prosecutors.

He is someone who prosecutors are saying that jurors can trust.

When he was asked on the stand why he had chosen to testify, he would always say the same thing.

He talks about how proud he was to be a police officer and how he never really left that

life behind.

He's made some mistakes but he still has law enforcement in his blood as how he puts it

and that the least he can do to redeem himself for these minor financial crimes that he committed

when he was desperate for money is to be one of the good guys and to help police and prosecutors.

And he does a lot to distance himself from the other sort of what he sees as the riff

raff in the jail.

He's not like them.

He's a former cop.

He's different.

You just want someone to step in here and say, wait, wait, wait.

What is happening with this guy?

You know, just someone with some sense.

There's something's going on here.

I think that's the most shocking thing to me here is no one ever steps in to say, hold on a second.

This doesn't make sense.

This is something where, you know, really ethically we need to think about this.

And I think it goes to these incentives that the system puts out there.

The prosecutors incentives, unfortunately, in this office at that time with the culture,

the tough on crime culture of the era, it was to get convictions.

Something that a prosecutor said to me, which all paraphrase, was you've got to work

with a sinner to catch the devil.

I can't think off the top of my head of a case in which he brought forth evidence that

prosecutors or investigators said, come on, Paul, that seems a little far-fetched.

And you know, you have to imagine, here's a guy in the jail who's got a better track record

than their star detectives in their county.

And they never questioned this.

They just, they keep sponsoring his testimony.

By 1984, he had testified against or given information about at least 27 men in Pinellas

County, jail, and three of them were on death row.

That year, the St. Petersburg Times published an article about the dramatic rise in death sentences

in the county.

One lawyer was quoted saying, they're going to have to build a separate wing on death

row for Pinellas County.

I mean, if you were a defense attorney and you had done your research, they've got

this guy, he was, he does this all the time.

I want to talk about that.

You know, was anyone saying on the other side, wait a second, this doesn't make any sense.

So here's where it's so hard with jailhouse informants.

There was no easy way, think about, especially in a time period when court records are

not digitized, right?

Where you're just going through page by page by page, the complexity of trying to figure

out how many other cases this guy has testified in, it was extremely difficult.

The state attorney's office knew they had a running list of every case he'd ever given

information in.

But for defense attorneys who are, you know, so short on time, short on money, often

we're talking public defenders who have a few hours to prepare their case, who don't

have an investigator working for them.

It was an almost impossible task.

And when a defense attorney asks someone like Paul Scalnick, were you promised anything

in return for this testimony, he can truthfully say no.

So that's something that jurors can go on to believe.

Because nothing's been promised yet.

Nothing's been promised.

It's an implicit understanding on the part of the prisoner that if they help out, they'll

get something back.

What was his reward for all of this testimony, this next batch of testimony?

He was released again, incredibly.

One of the things I found so shocking was whenever he was released, you know, he would

have court dates where he was supposed to check in with the court, because he usually

had either an upcoming trial of his own or a trial in which he was testifying in.

And he would never show up to these hearings.

So there was just this bizarre way in which prosecutors endlessly trusted that he would

do what they had asked him to do.

It's like, you know, I can get in trouble because I can figure it.

I'll just get a couple of confessions and I'll get myself right back out of jail if I

get caught again.

Right, right, that's exactly right.

He was arrested again less than two years after he was released for a few different financial

crimes.

Once he was in jail, Paul Scalnick let an investigator he'd worked with before.

John Halliday know that even though he was in an isolation cell, all alone, three men

had found a way to tell him about the murders they'd committed.

Prosecutors planned to use Paul's testimony in their trials, but this time he wasn't released

early.

He would have to stay in jail to wait for his own trial.

Paul did whatever he could to get out.

He wrote to the judge in his case.

He drafted a legal petition saying he was unlawfully detained.

He even wrote to the governor copying Ted Kennedy.

None of it worked.

But then a man named Jim Daly was moved to Paul's floor.

He'll be right back.

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Tell me a little bit about Jim daily. What was he in jail for?

So Jim daily grew up in Manhattan, Kansas and was this really beloved young man he had.

A family he had started college. He in 1968 went to Vietnam.

He goes on to become an alcoholic and lives quite a difficult somewhat itinerant life.

And he falls in with a guy named Jack Percy.

Jack Percy, unlike James daily, had a very long rap sheet and history of violence against

women. He had also been involved in a murder for higher case in Missouri a few years earlier.

So these guys and their front end up moving to Pinellas County, this place where you can kind of reinvent yourself.

The sun is always shining. The living is cheap.

Not long after they arrive in Pinellas County, a 14 year old girl named Shelley Boggio ends up dead

in Indian Rocks Beach, Florida in this area.

She is found naked in the water.

She's been stabbed over 30 times.

Her body's been brutalized. The assumption is she's been sexually assaulted and it's a horrific crime.

The investigation very quickly narrows in on Jack Percy, who is the last person to be seen with her alive.

The night she was killed, he had been pursuing her romantically.

He was 29 years old. She was 14.

And he had blood on his shoes that night.

There were just all sorts of indications that Jack was the prime suspect in this case.

Police track him down to Kansas where he fled after Shelley's murder.

They bring him in for questioning.

He tells a story about how he brought Shelley Boggio down to this lover's lane in Pinellas County this night that she was killed.

And he also happened to bring his housemate, Jim, James Daley.

And that he, Jack Percy, stayed back in the car while Jim went off with Shelley and tried to have sex with her.

There was a struggle and Jim stabbed her and killed her.

So there's no evidence whatsoever to back this up.

This is really the word of the prime suspect of the case is putting this on Jim.

But nevertheless, these two men are arrested and charged with capital murder.

So what happens is Jack Percy goes to trial for this case and he's convicted, but he's given a life sentence.

And it's hard, I think, in 2026 for us to understand how a life sentence in a crime of this horror was something that was really unacceptable, especially in this area of Florida.

And it was a political liability for the State Attorney's Office.

So Jim goes to trial six months after this, but there's just not a lot of there there's Jack Percy's account and not much else.

So shortly after Jack Percy gets this life sentence, the lead investigator in the case, John Holiday goes into the Pinellas County jail.

And he starts pulling guys out of their cells.

And these are guys who've been housed with Jim daily.

He pulls 15 men out of their cells in all.

And he brings each one one by one to this little room.

And he asks them what Jim has been saying about his case.

And if they have any information about Jim's role in this case, it's important to note that at least four of them

remember that there were newspaper articles that were spread out in this room, describing the smirter that had all the details.

One might need to give testimony in a case like this.

The lead investigator denies that that was the case and he has denied that under oath.

But he ends up leaving the jail that day without getting information.

The guys say, Jim's never said anything to us or Jim said he's innocent.

But the word is out in the jail that this case needs a snitch.

When Jim daily was moved to Paul Scalnick's floor, he said, this is a damn setup.

Two days later, Paul had good news for the investigator.

Jim had confessed everything to him.

These men did not know each other.

At Jim's trial, again, there's just not a lot of information.

And there's nothing that is directly tying Jim to the crime.

There's no forensic evidence.

There's no physical evidence.

There's no obvious motive.

And even the story that Jack Pierce, he has, doesn't make a lot of sense.

So Scalnick is brought in.

Scalnick says that Jim can fast this to him.

And he has all the basic details of where it occurred and who the victim was, what she looked like.

But the icing on the cake of his testimony is he describes what he says

is how Jim describes the killing.

He says that Jim says that he's holding Shelley in his arms.

He's stabbing her and she's staring up at him, but she will not die.

And it's a horrifying image of this young girl who is looking up pleading at someone

while she's being stabbed to death.

To be clear, there is zero corroborating evidence to back up this story.

Paul went on to say that when he heard the confession, it was hard to accept it.

He said, I had seen this gentleman walking in the hallways, laughing and kidding with other inmates.

And all of a sudden to see a man's eyes and to describe how he can stab a young girl.

What did Jim daily say about Scalnick's testimony?

What Jim told me was that he was so beyond, I can't remember the words he used,

but what Jim said was that he was just so stunned that someone could get up on the stand

until falsehood after falsehood.

This just absolutely outrageous story in a case where the electric chair is at play,

that was what Jim was facing at that time.

And it's very common for defense attorneys to advise their clients

when they're sitting at the defense table listening to testimony to have no reaction

to what a witness is saying.

And the idea behind that is you don't want to have jurors see a defendant get really angry.

Maybe that would make them think they could commit this crime.

So Jim is advised, and this is typical, to not have a reaction to what Scalnick is saying.

So he has to sit there stone-faced while Scalnick is saying these lies.

Doesn't that seem like the hardest thing?

And then the ways that juries might interpret that.

How much of a world did Paul Scalnick's testimony play in the trial and sentencing of Jim daily?

I believe it played an enormous role because there really no forensic evidence,

no physical evidence, no motive.

Jack Pierssey didn't even end up testifying at the trial.

He took the fifth.

So the state had nothing.

In the end, the state brought in three jailhouse informants.

Scalnick's testimony was by far the most extensive and detailed.

But just to give a sense of things,

I have always viewed any case that had a jailhouse informant in it as a huge red flag

that either this was a possible innocence case or something was terribly wrong with the case.

I've actually never heard of a case in which there were three jailhouse informants.

I'm sure it's happened before,

but that just gives you a sense of how weak the evidence was.

Jim daily was convicted of murder in the first degree and sentenced to death.

When Pamela Kohloff asked one of the prosecutors in Jim daily's case about Paul Scalnick's testimony,

she said she never willfully and intentionally provided false evidence or testimony to a court or jury on any case.

Another prosecutor said,

if we did not believe that his testimony was truthful, we wouldn't have had him testify.

Jim spoke at the sentencing hearing and said that in Pinellas County,

the pursuit of convictions has been turned into a win-it-all cost game

and that truth is allowed to be manipulated and paid liars are allowed to testify.

Five days later, Paul Scalnick was released.

One Florida parole and probation commission memo stated that his release was,

due to his cooperation with the state's attorney's office in the first degree murder trial.

Paul promised he would stay in town to testify in three upcoming murder trials

and to attend his own trial for Grand Theft.

Instead, he went back to Texas.

And once he was there, he managed to scam a jewelry store

out of almost $30,000 of merchandise.

He finally gets caught.

He's extradited back to Florida.

And he's very angry that he's being asked to stay in jail

before these other murder trials happen that he's going to testify in.

He's angry that they won't trust him once again to go free and show up for trial.

So in retaliation, he writes a sworn affidavit in which he says that everything he said

and all his prior testimony in all these cases in Pinellas County had been,

all that information had been fed to him by police and prosecutors.

And it was false testimony and he takes everything back.

The prosecutors are then in the same exact position

that all these defendants have been in for years of, wait, what?

We did what?

And they have to try to defend themselves.

And one of the most incredible legal documents I've seen in my entire career

is what they file in response with the court in which they say,

all Scalnick is lying about what he's saying about us.

No prosecutor and no investigator fed him information.

But everything he said prior to this in these other cases is true

and should remain on the record.

It's really wild.

And he in the end gets the upper hand.

He, at that point, they want him to get out of Dodge.

They want him to stop talking.

They cut him a deal where he's going to serve his time,

even for his Florida crimes in Texas.

And he gets this sweetheart deal back in Texas.

He's released after not very much time.

But Pinellas County prosecutors want him gone.

They're done with him by then.

Just before Paul Scalnick was released,

he wrote a letter to a judge saying,

the State Attorney's Office has always characterized me as an honest,

forthright witness.

And together, we never lost a case.

We reached out to the Pinellas County State Attorney's Office

for comment on the case's Paul was involved in,

but haven't heard back.

They have said in a past statement that he had no time

was an agent of the Sheriff's Office or the State Attorney's Office.

And that the State Attorney's Office never provided any leniency

to Paul Scalnick in exchange for his testimony.

It also stated that all the information Paul Scalnick provided

was independently verified,

and the office never received information indicating

that his testimony was incorrect.

In November 1989, Paul went back to his hometown in Texas.

He got married again.

He told her he was a real estate developer and gave her a used Jaguar.

God knows how he kept the Shred going, but he did.

And so she had a 16-year-old daughter, Misty Anderson,

and Paul Scalnick zeroes in on her and does to her

what he had done before.

He molests her.

She goes to police, and thankfully, they really,

really take action.

Unfortunately, he was known to them as a first-time sex offender,

so he didn't get the kind of punishment he would have gotten.

Had the Karen Parker crime worked its way through the courts.

He was sentenced to 10 years in prison and served his full term.

After he was released in 2002,

he didn't register as a sex offender, as he was required to do,

and left Texas.

He went to Boston, where he told people that he was a lawyer

named Avery Harrison, and had business cards made to prove it.

After paying him thousands of dollars, his clients realized

he hadn't been doing any work for them at all.

And just over a year, after he'd been released,

he was arrested again.

He was charged with larceny, and the unauthorized practice of law.

While he was in prison in Massachusetts, Jim Daly's lawyers subpoenaed him

to testify in a hearing about Jim's case.

They were hoping that Paul would say that the prosecutors had coached him

before he testified in Jim's trial, and that they had offered him a deal.

But when Paul was questioned, he said that he had never lied.

That statement became part of the court record,

and would come up every time Jim Daly tried to appeal on the basis of an unfair trial.

After Paul's scalnik was released from prison in Massachusetts,

he never reported for probation, and claimed he was a retired lawyer named E. Paul Smith.

He kept a legal dictionary around, with E. Paul Smith's Esquire,

attorney at law, embossed on it.

He also claimed he had health problems from serving as a Marine Corps fighter pilot,

and was in treatment for brain cancer at the VA.

Paul shaved his head to make it look like he was in chemotherapy.

And he kept taking people's money to help them with legal issues.

He was arrested again and sentenced to 50 months in federal prison.

Pamela Kohlov went to visit him there in 2018.

He spoke about how prosecutors and he said,

we never lost a case.

And I thought that was so interesting that he spoke of how he worked with them

in that way.

He told me a few lies upfront that were such bald-faced lies that I knew they were lies.

One was that he had a yacht that he kept in Belize,

which he showed me a picture of, a hundred-foot yacht.

He had these offshore bank accounts in the Cayman Islands.

I knew that none of that was true.

Pamela Kohlov says that Paul told her he'd tell her more of his story in the future.

But then, when she tried to see him more,

talk to him, Paul kept saying he was too sick,

or that he hadn't gotten her letter because something had gone wrong in the mail room.

He ended up never giving her the information she was hoping for.

And so I finally realized he had conned me.

He had given me exactly what I hungered for.

This is what he'd done with everyone.

He sized me up. He knew what I was hungry for.

He fed it to me.

And I, an investigative journalist, who knew he was a con artist with a long rap sheet.

I bought into that, and I think that speaks to,

if you're hungry for something, he knew how to read that.

But Pamela did see him again, one last time.

In 2019, a week after Jim Daly's death warrant was signed.

He'd been on death row for more than 30 years.

So, I went to the nursing home where Paul Skalnek was living at that time.

And I said to him, I don't know if you remember the case of a man named Jim Daly,

but he has received an execution date.

And if you're ever going to tell the truth about what really happened in the jail,

this is the time to do it.

And he refused.

He stuck to his story.

He stuck to his story.

And it was interesting.

You could see he had other regrets.

When I brought up the case of Freddie Gaines,

there was an expression that came across his face where I think there was some regret.

Freddie was very young when this happened.

And he was a very fun and lively and charismatic guy at that time.

And I'm sure Skalnek remembered that and reflected on the fact that here was someone who was going to die in prison because of him.

What was it like to be with him in person?

So, the first thing to know is that even in his advanced age and not being in good health,

I could see that charm that he had when he was a young man.

He was so easy to talk to.

He was a terrific listener.

He was very, very well spoken.

But there was something that happened when I went to visit him.

He showed me a scar that was on his knee.

And he said that that scar had come from the time when he was a fighter pilot

in the Vietnam War.

And he'd been shot down over Lowe's.

And he'd been taken captive and he'd become a prisoner of war.

And that scar, which was very visible, was from that time.

And I remembered when he told me that something that my mother had told me growing up,

which is if you're going to lie, you have to have a really good memory.

When I had first gone to see him in prison and he had that scar and it was very visible that day,

he told me that it had come from a terrible car accident that he had been in Austin in the 1970s,

which I feel certain is what it really was from.

I found no evidence, no records that he was ever in the military whatsoever.

Not surprising.

Yeah.

Did he say anything about why people had confessed to him so often?

He really couldn't provide the answers for that.

I really probed that.

And he seemed sort of unconcerned about whether I actually believed these confessions were true.

He was really at that point very focused on how lonely he was at the end of his life.

And I remember after this five hour conversation telling him that I had to go.

And it had been a tough conversation, but he grabbed my hand very forcefully.

And he said, when it's time for me to die, will you come back and sit with me?

Paul Scalnick died less than six months later on March 10, 2020.

When you reached out to people to tell them that Paul Scalnick had died, how did they react?

Nobody believed me.

Everybody felt that this was another scam that he had somehow found a way to escape once again.

According to a 2024 report from the National Registry of Exoneration's

7% of wrongful convictions in the registry involved jail-heavs testimony.

And jail-heavs testimony had been a factor in 25% of death penalty cases.

There have been reforms in at least a dozen states.

In Illinois, there are hearings to determine whether a jail house informant is reliable enough before a case goes to trial.

In Texas, there are registries in each county to keep track of jail house informants and the cases they've testified in.

And in California, the jury is instructed to view the testimony of an in-custody informant with caution and close scrutiny.

Jim Daly, God-a-stay-of-execution in 2019, and is still on death row.

Criminal is created by Lauren Spore and me.

Nadia Wilson is our senior producer.

Katie Bishop is our supervising producer.

Our producers are Susanna Robertson, Jackie Sajiko, Lily Clark, and Lena Silicin.

This episode was fact checked by Katie Cedarborg.

Our show is mixed and engineered by Veronica Seminetti.

Julie Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal.

You can see them at thisiscriminal.com, and you can sign up for our newsletter at thisiscriminal.com slash newsletter.

Pamela Kohlhoff's book is Catch the Devil, a true story of murder, deception, and injustice on the Gulf Coast.

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