The Global Gratitude Show with Historian Tom Betti

0:00Welcome to the Global Gratitude Show with Tanya Anderson, where hearts open, kindness connects us and stories of giving light to the world. Each week, Tanya brings you inspiring voices from around the globe, people spreading hope, love and gratitude in their own extraordinary ways. So take a deep breath, open your heart, and get ready to celebrate the power of positivity. Thank you for tuning in to my show, The Global Gratitude Show with Tanya Anderson. Today, my guest is a fabulous chap who's a historian, Tom Betty, and a board member of the Panam Museum Foundation in New York. He has a marvelous Panam podcast where he's interviewed so many luminaries that are all one way or another connected to the aviation industry and their fascinating

1:02careers. And so today, I would like to welcome Tom Betty to the show and Tom, welcome. Thank you very much, Tanya. It is great pleasure to be here. I know, I'm glad we could find the arrangement at time to have this wonderful chat. So tell me a little bit about your background and how you became a historian and why you were particularly interested in Panam. Sure. Well, let's start from the beginning. I grew up outside of Cleveland. A very middle-class family. My dad was a firefighter paramedic, and I've always been fascinated with history. And I remember when I was a child, my dad took me to the local store here and purchased a book of presidents at that time, which had only went up to, I think, George H. W. Bush at the time. Or maybe he was Reagan. This was in the mid to late 80s. So it was probably Reagan. So it didn't go through a lot of them up until that time. So I think that was the first

2:08big history connection for me. And then also in 1989, you might have heard of the song We Didn't Start the Fire by Billy Joel. My parents bought that for me a little cassette tape and it had all of the lyrics. And I looked up every single lyric because every single lyric on that song means something in history. Billy Joel was born in 1948. So it starts with Harry Truman in 1948, and then it goes all of the pivotal moments in history between 1948 and 1989. So that was my first big research project as a nine-year-old at the time. We didn't have Google in those days. We didn't have Google. So I would go to the library, and I would also go to, we had an encyclopedia set that was really outdated. But I got some of most of the things I looked up and that was like my

3:11first, you know, history project. But so today I work in government. I mean, I've worked in government for almost 20 years now. But I do think that everybody, no matter what your profession is, you need to have a passion project. So I have several passion projects. One of those passion projects that I have is the Pan Am podcast, which you can listen to wherever you listen to podcasts. When I joined the Pan Am Museum Board in 2021, the first question I asked is, you know, tell me about your oral history program. And they said, what oral history program? There you go. So I came up with this idea of a podcast, which is kind of like an old radio show kind of thing where like Larry King or something where you can interview some really interesting people. And as long as it has some connective tissue to Pan Am, I can interview lots of different people about lots of different

4:11topics, probably that were passengers, people that were, you know, interested or inspired by the airline. Or people that, you know, their family members worked for the airline or they worked for their airline themselves. So it was a pretty broad paintbrush stroke to kind of put together this pilot. I didn't even know if I was going to be the host. I thought that my fellow board number, Philip Keene, who's an actor, I was kind of making it for him with him in mind. The world is full of surprises, right Tom? And then, and then everybody, you know, loved it, and it, it, it was like wildfire. The first three episodes, I don't even, you know, introduce myself, you know, I wanted to be a faceless voice of the museum without a name. And then everybody thought it was somebody else. So they're like, you really need to introduce yourself. So because I didn't want to make it about me, it's about the stories, it's about the people I'm interviewing.

5:14Good for you. But eventually people started, you know, wanting to know more about me. I chased you down last April with the baby liftoff, right? You lived in her. So I had to start talking about myself, which normally I don't like to do. I will ask tough questions to other people, but I'm not used to being interviewed like with this show. So to make a long story short, my Pan Am connection goes back to 1991, January of 1991. My uncle Vince at the time was working for Eastern Airlines and Eastern went out of business. Yeah, they just got out of business, yeah. And he was friendly with the Pan Am station chief in Cleveland. And at that time, Pan Am filed for bankruptcy and they were trying to reorganize. So they weren't hiring. But she needed help because it was a very small operation in Cleveland. And he's, she started asking, you know, my uncle who was out of work and had nothing to do. Hey, can you do some, some work for me? I can't pay

6:17you. And it's probably against company policy. But I can pay you with passes, global passes. And my uncle said, sure, you know, no problem with me. So they had a transport furniture here and there and, you know, like odd jobs kind of thing. But it turns out that my, my mother, my uncle and my grandmother are immigrants from Italy. And they moved here in 1963. And that summer, my uncle said to my mom and my grandmother, would you like to spend summer in Italy? Oh, yeah. We know I signed up passes. So, so we start, you know, I had to leave school a little bit early. And we had this great family trip planned to Italy. And I was nine and a half at the time. Actually, no, I'd take that back. I was 11 and a half at the time in 1991. You spring chicken you.

7:20And my sister was a toddler. She was two. And so we planned this trip. And at that time, some of your listeners may know this, but you had to get dressed up. If you were flying standby on the company's dime, you had to be dressed up. So summer 1991, I didn't wear my suit for a whole year. And my parents made a critical error because at 4.30 in the morning, we were getting ready to go. And I went to go put on my suit and everything fit. But my dress shoes did not fit. So there was pandemonium in my house. And they were worried that the panium ticket agents weren't going to let us on the plane because I had to wear my bright white converse tennis shoes with my suit. Big trouble ahead. Big trouble ahead. And it was pandemonium. We got to the airport. It was busy. It was six in the morning or flight to JFK.

8:27And they didn't even bat an eye. They just were like, whatever. So then we got to JFK. And first thing in the morning, I think we landed like seven or eight, something like that. And we had the run. I have the whole run of the place because it was pretty much a ghost town because JFK, the world port, kind of opened up in the late afternoon evening with all the evening flights that were going out. So there wasn't really anything to do. So I just kept walking around. And I didn't realize the gravity of my situation and what panam was because at that time, I was a huge fan. And I still am of Indiana Jones and James Bond. Me too. There you go. And Indiana Jones and James Bond always flew on Pan American World Airways. Right. Yes. So I didn't connect the dots yet that that I'm flying on James Bond's airline. I'm just brewing out there. So I I walked out of the world port out of the front down the ramp. I'm sure your listeners that remember the world

9:32port know exactly what I'm talking about. I walked down the ramp and I turned around and I said, I remember this. Where do I know where do I know this from? And I immediately came to mind, live and let die, Roger Moore walking out of the world port. I love it. And then I looked at the sign and I said, Oh, panam, Pan American world airlines. I am flying on James Bond airlines. I love it. That's what you be too. So the rest of the time, you know, in the world port, which was extremely boring for an 11 year old walking around. And I mean, some of the planes were there. So I was looking at the planes, but still, you know, being there for eight hours with nothing to do. I was coming up with the story of I was this junior secret agent on this mission. I love that. So cool. So fast forward to I think our flight left around seven or something.

10:33And the ticket agent looked down at my white shoes because my parents were actually talking about going into the city to get me, you know, dress shoes. But they decided not to at the end. And the ticket agent looks at my white converse tennis shoes and my suit. Uh oh. And she said, that's so cute. And we got on the plane. As you're a kid, you got to cut you some slack. So I like to think that I may have started, you know, a trend in the early 90s. You're not kidding. Can I get this really quickly? One time I had, and she was not nice at all, the model ima. And she was sitting in first class from Charles de Gaulle back to Kennedy. And first, she yelled at the guy who was already sitting in the window seat, but it was her mistake. She thought he was in her seat, but he was, she was an aisle seat. And honey, after the meal service, I, you know, I would stand at the gallery and look at a zone and kind of see what's going on.

11:34She had kicked off her shoes and she had put her feet up cross on the seat in front of her. So I mean, that whoever, I mean, it was full. So whoever sitting in that seat, he's got these feet like right behind him. I was, I was horrified. Just the Brit say, I mean, I, I mean, how do you handle it? You're trying to be a diplomat, but you're really pissed. You know, I was like, what are you doing, woman? Anyway, so go ahead. Go ahead. So all I had was my, my white sneakers and they were on the whole flight, Tanya. So, and the flight attendants loved me because I was this like little, you know, mini man that was, you're up for adoption, right? So, you know, we board this plane and, you know, as an 11 year old, I don't know how tall I was at the time, but the, the 747 was huge. I mean, it's a huge, huge aircraft for adults. So imagine what it looked like for a child. Yes. So we walked on there and I was like, this is like an entire

12:36building. How does this thing get off the ground? Or like five stories high like Al Toppings. Yeah. I mean, it's just amazing, an amazing feat for humanity to, to have this kind of technology that can, you know, take off. So anyways, we were scattered all over the main cabin. So we did not sit together. And I was on the right side in the last row in the smoking section. Oh poor guy. But still, I was like, you know, I'm flying on James Bond's airline and gotta be flexible. I'm this little secret agent. You know, I had this whole thing. And there was this gentleman sitting next to me in a suit. And you know, after we took off, I must not have looked like I was having a good time because he, you know, he tapped me on the shoulder and he said, are you feeling okay? And I said, not really, you know, the smoke. I mean, you could cut the smoke with a knife because

13:36everybody went in the back and stood around and smoked. And you could, it was like this haze that was I used to go crazy. Sorry, but I used to go crazy when they were standing smoke at the back. Cause we always made the announcements several times in different languages, right? I, honey, I could be up front carving the chateau beyond. And all of a sudden, my antennas was start quivering and I'd look all the way back to the tail. And I'd see it foggy back there. And I said, you know, the flight take, can you take over the car for a couple of minutes? And I charged back there and then they see me coming and they grind it out in our indoor outdoor carpet. You know, and I'm just like, this is so dangerous. You don't realize, you know, we're over, we're not over notion. We wouldn't even be able to land anywhere, you know, we'd have to ditch. So anyway, if I underscore your point. So, um, so the gentleman said, yes, you know, I feel the same. I don't smoke a lot of my friends do and they smoke at work. Um, and then, you know, so what do you ask this 11 year old boy that's sitting next to you for the next nine hours? Um, so, you know, he asked me,

14:38would you want to be when you grow up? Which is a standard question that you ask, you know, kids around that age. And I thought to myself, well, I'm an American. So I can't say, I want, I mean, I want to be in the British secret service. So I said, I want to be in the US secret service. And he looked at me for a second and then he like paused and you could see like, the wheels turned and then he pulled open his lapel and he pulled out his badge and he said, well, I'm in the US secret service. No, Kitty, maybe he thought you were a plant for a minute. And like, my mind is blown because I'm on my little secret mission and I'm sitting next to a real secret agent next to me. Unreal. Uh, and it turns out that he was flying to Europe because, uh, at that time, George HW Bush was flying to Europe. And this is around the time of the Gulf War. Yep. Um, and, uh, he was one of the advanced people that was going to, uh, uh,

15:43scope out the locations the president was going to be visiting. We talked about all the presidents that he worked under. He started with Lyndon Johnson. He knew the Nixon's well, best words well. Uh, and it was just an amazing time. And then every time the flight attendants would walk by, they would always wink at me. And I probably knew who he was. And I did ask him if he had a weapon on him. And he said, if I did, I couldn't tell you. Uh, so whatever that meant. Wow, that's so amazing. And, you know, my mom came back like one time, you know, just to check on me. And, you know, she saw that I had, you know, two flight attendants and, you know, the secret service agent that was talking to me the whole time. Um, you're well taken care of. So she only came back once. Check on me. He's on. But we had a fascinating conversation. And he said that his son was a little bit older than me. And, uh, we just talked about all different kinds of

16:43things. Um, and obviously I was into presidents back then. So we talked about each of the presidents he worked under, um, and he shared some really interesting stories. Uh, and when we were on approach to Rome, the flight attendant came back and said, uh, I just talked to your mom. And I just wanted to tell you that when you get off the plane, uh, there's going to be a whole bunch of soldiers. And I don't want you to get scared. And I'm glad she said that because when we got off the plane, again, this is during the Gulf War. Right. And there was terrorism everywhere. Absolutely. And, uh, you know, this was a couple of years after Lockerby. And, uh, we walked off the plane and shurn off. There was not only soldiers, but they had like, uh, sandbags and dogs and, in the Rome airport. I mean, it was like walking into a war zone. My mom's like, what did we walk into? Um, and I'm glad she, she gave me a heads up on that because if she didn't, it would have

17:44been a jarring experience. And for some of your lung younger listeners, um, this is kind of a concept that's hard to to understand because, uh, your younger listeners, you know, have, have probably grown up with really intense airport security. Yes. But an American boy, uh, in 1991, did not see that often in airports. And we went to like Disney and, and a couple of their places on family trips. So, so it was a jarring experience to see that kind of, um, um, military presence in an airport, uh, in, in my early, early years. So I'm glad that the flight attendant gave me a heads up on that. Yeah. Good for her. And I, I'd like to interject this really quickly. So when, uh, Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, August 1st, 1990, uh, we, we were, uh, you know, we had the craft program civilian reserve air fleet. And so we immediately started flying soldiers. And initially,

18:45they were going from the 747, as you say, seats 425 people. All right. Uh, we would go from, uh, New York to, to Egypt. To, for some reason, they picked Cairo. I don't know why. And then they realized that wasn't too smart because there's too many factions around there, you know, they'd be so easy from to come from other Arab countries. So they went to Fumichino instead. And so Fumichino was like a big staging project. So we would work from New York to Fumichino, about a seven hour, 15 minute flight, you know, and then get off a 24 hour layover. And then the next day, you take, you take the incoming aircraft, uh, 747 from, uh, to Rome, to Daharan on the East Coast of Saudi Arabia. They would unload all the material from the, uh, the, you know, the cargo bay. But it was kind of funny about it too. I think there was some booze because we got a really enthusiastic, response when we landed in, in, in Daharan. And the, the, uh, people, yeah, it was just like being in the States. I, I didn't see any, uh, Saudis at all. I have friends, really good friends in Saudi

19:49Arabia. I know from high school. But anyway, it was just like landing at an American base. And then I met this wonderful gal called, um, Sergeant, uh, what was she, a staff sergeant, uh, Shelley Ovesack. And we're, we're friends to the state. We're still in touch to the state. And she was manifesting the theater. So I had said to the flight attendants, um, I, I said, now I want all the food and all, you know, all the drinks and stuff off. You know, take a little snack, uh, and I want to, often the soldiers, you know, have them unloaded and take it to the hangar because, you know, we were going to turn around. They didn't watch you on the ground too long. All the, all the carriers are doing Northwest and the others as well. You know, uh, you just unload everything and then turn around ferry right back to Fumichino. So, uh, it was pretty interesting. But, and, and they were good. We were, we were giddy about it. It was just like, you know, we're, we're doing something that really counts. You know what I mean? And, and, uh, our flight attendant, uh, Union, I, you feel, had said that they said, we won't, um, you know, if you call in sick or like

20:52call in because you're afraid of flying into a war zone, we'll protect you that the company can't fire you. So that was cool. We knew that. But Tom, nobody ever called in sick that I saw, you know, because I was a person and I, you know, I'll go to the crew lounge in New York. All the names are there. Everybody signed in. So here we go. And it, you know, it was, it was very, it was so, so interesting. It was, it was really an amazing time because you have civilians now mixing with the military very actively and it was, it was a really remarkable experience. So that's kind of dovetails with what you were just described. Yeah. Yeah. So we got off the plane and then, uh, my, my, my mom and my uncle and my grandmother are from a tiny town outside of Kassarta, uh, which is just north of Naples. So that's where we spent the summer. Uh, and I, I can, you know, we can come back to the summer abroad when I was, uh, 11 in 1991 and other time, but tying it back to the Pan Am story. So we, uh, when we were coming back from Rome, uh, two months later, and at that

21:58time I had my proper Italian dress shoes that fit. Uh, we go to the counter. It's all the details. The, the, uh, ticket agent said, well, you're in for a treat because it's a very open flight. And, uh, and then she turned to me and she said, would you like to sit upstairs? Woo. I like to sit upstairs. Absolutely. Um, so, uh, my, at that time, my mom and my little sister, and I, uh, had, uh, seats on the upper deck. We went on the upper deck and my mom is very claustrophobic and she didn't like it very much. So she went downstairs, uh, with my toddler sister, which is good because she was crying a little bit during the flight, uh, but I didn't know because I was upstairs in heaven. Um, and they treated me like a royal prince, um, and I sat in the second

22:58row on the left side, uh, on the upper deck. And that's when my love affair with Pan Am began. Uh, and what's, what's great, you know, when I look back at my, my early years, I mean, my moms from Italy, so I had homemade Italian meals every day. Yum. Oh, yum. And we went, you know, as a treat, we would go to Chinese restaurant or pizza hut, maybe once a month, um, and maybe McDonald's for a special occasion, but other than that, I, I was spoiled. I didn't know it at the time. Now I do, but I was spoiled with really, really good food. But outside of Italian food and the Chinese restaurant and, and, you know, some other special occasions now and then I really didn't have a palette for other cuisines. So with Pan Am, they introduced me to this proper French food. I still remember it was like this scallop casserole. The flight attendant said, would you like, uh, Coca-Cola or Pepsi, we have

24:01both. And it was just amazing. Um, that kind of opened up the door to the, the, uh, luxurious taste that I still have, uh, with a great many things that my paycheck can't afford, but that's for another story. Um, but, uh, the Pan Am, uh, on the upper deck, that's where a lot of my, uh, later tastes kind of evolved from, uh, on that flight. Um, I'm thinking of two things here. I'd like to interject. One is that it was before my time. I was higher than 85, but, uh, how Max seems a Paris, uh, used to cater Pan Am before my time in the 70s. Imagine what that was like. I mean, just amazing. But, but things were still good. Uh, um, the cuisine was still fabulous in my time. The, uh, staptopryon with the different sauces and, uh, and the mixed field greens under the iceberg lettuce stuff, you know, and, uh, oh gosh, uh, well, a potato foie gras and, and the smoked salmon and with all the

25:05little condiments and the, and the beluga caviar. I mean, it was just amazing. You would get used to it. And it, it was just, it was remarkable. And then the, uh, the grand marnier, uh, moose with the, uh, with the hot fudge sauce that came from some foxy place in Manhattan. I mean, just thinking about it. And, you know, it was just, it was wonderful. You, we earned it because we ran around a lot. So when it was time for you to sit down, have your meal, you know, you earned it. So that's where my love affair with Pan Am began. And then fast forward, um, I, I became a historian. I have a master's green history. I've written, uh, I've co-written, um, five books on Columbus, Ohio history. That's where I live now. Columbus, okay? Good for you. Um, I've been there since 1999. And, uh, uh, during the, and I always would have Pan Am memorabilia around my house, uh, posters, uh, menus, you know, whatever pictures. And my,

26:07my friends would always ask me, what's with all this Pan Am stuff? So I would tell them the story. And, uh, during the pandemic, one of my friends said, you should write this up and post it somewhere online. And I said, well, I have nothing else to do. I might as well. So I posted on one of the Pan Am groups and the Pan Am people went crazy. You know how glad I was. I had people sending me messages and pictures of crew members trying to figure out, you know, what flight it was. Um, it was amazing. And then they found out the Pan Am people found out that I write history stuff and I do history tours and things. And then the Pan Am museum reached out to me. And, uh, and that's how I got involved with the Pan Am museum. So it was all from that article that I wrote, to which I can't even find anywhere. I don't even know where I posted. Um, and that's how, and the rest is history because then the Pan Am podcast came from that. Um, our YouTube channel,

27:11uh, we've really built up and we have a lot of really interesting programs that we've done, Operation Baby Lift, for instance. Love that. Yes. Um, as, as, you know, a historian, it's been a, a fantastic journey over the last almost five years of kind of, uh, telling the, the, the incredible history of Pan American World Airways and introducing that history to many, many young people and new people that didn't know about this history. Um, and also, you know, working with the Pan Am people and telling their story and also for many of them, I've been kind of adopted into this Pan Am family. Well, you sure have a long sense, Tom, I'd say. So, um, I have, you know, because of this experience over the last five years, I've developed some really, really close friendships that, that I cherish. Oh, I'm not surprised at that at all. And, you know, it's amazing how we're all

28:12kind of like kissing cousins because, you know, Linda was, uh, my supervisor at Pan Am. Yeah. That's amazing. Here we are 40, exactly 40 years later, because I was hired in March of 85. And then, uh, and Al topping is, as, as you know, he hired me at Pan Am. So I mean, here we are. How many people, regardless of what you do for living, your electrical engineer, however, how many people can say 40 years later, I'm in touch with my supervisor from that, yeah, one of my first companies and also the man. It's amazing. I love it. It never ceases to amaze me that it for the loyalty of the Pan Am people to an airline that, that, that, uh, failed. I know Pan Am people don't like me saying this, but it's reality. It failed. And a lot of the people lost their pensions. They lost everything. Um, horrible. I just felt so bad for them. Yet they're still so loyal to each other and loyal to the airline. And what the airline meant.

29:12That is incredible. I don't think there's another company out there. Maybe with, maybe TWA comes a close second. Uh, but you don't hear IBM or Microsoft, uh, or, or any other company that has this kind of loyalty, you know, like Kodak, I think Kodak's being reinvented now. But, um, you know, the, the, the old company is long gone. And you don't hear about, you know, Kodak reunions and, and, and, and maybe it's out there. And I just haven't researched it. But, well, you know, hear the, you know, this loyalty, um, to each other and to the company, like you do with Pan Am people, which is really fascinating. And the beauty of it as well as it like how we invented our, uh, reinvented ourselves after Pan Am. Because, you know, I mean, I only had six and a half years with them. But for people that have got hired in their early 20s, right out of university, and now they're in their, their mid 40s or something. Sure. And it's like, wow, you know, they had to just kind of really completely reinvent themselves. But the thing that was, I thought was wonderful

30:18was one of the things that we did is we formed, and you know, this from reading my memoir, uh, we, we formed a group called Wings on Washington and, uh, Mary Lou, Ruddy Carch, she ended, uh, ended up marrying a marine general. She, she was one of the ring leaders. And we were all meeting in Washington. And this is like about four months after we went bankrupt. So we know we're done. But we did it for other people. What we, what we were talking about was jobs with assets. And we had the background of, uh, I mean, the, the backup of Reverend Jesse Jackson, Senator Ted Kennedy, Senator Bill Nelson, uh, that with the other Senator from Florida Bob Graham, when we had some people that were willing to, that they co-signed legislation for jobs with assets. And we had some TWA people that showed up, but, and then also some Eastern people. So we're finished, but what that, what we were trying to do for future airlines is that when another airline bought

31:19your airline out, that they at least would have to interview you. So that you can have your job. If you don't pass the interview, that's that. But don't go out and hire a bunch of people off the street. They don't know what's going on. You know, and my girlfriend Susie, uh, Susie Chandler said, uh, you know, I was getting ready to go down. I'm putting on my pen and uniform for the first time in like four months. And she said, uh, Tony, you're, you're gonna be crying. I said, I know, but it comes with the territory, you know, and uh, that was one thing. And another thing was we all got involved in the Hodge operation and the Lake Ganilla Crawford, a beautiful lady from Stockholm. She organized the 1993 Hodge. So now, you know, we've been bankrupt for a couple of years. And we all regrouped and, uh, they went, at least at the Chief Cabo, went, at least, uh, 2747s from the US. So that, that comes with the, the mechanics and the pilots and the, and the ground people, you know, and we all went over to Nigeria for three months. And of course, that's how we met Chief Cabo and everything like that. But boy, that, that was right out of the

32:22Pan Am playbook, a crazy adventure. Uh, I mean, just anything could have happened, you know, because you've read, you've read my stories. Uh, and then I met a whole new group of, uh, Pan Am people like Vince Rossi, people that had been junior to me, senior to me that I hadn't met before. And, uh, we were so in our element that was such a fantastic experience, not for everybody. I mean, we had some passengers walk across the tarmac, tarmac, they had never walked up stairs in Nigeria. So they, they would go and they would look up, like you say, five stories, high looking up at, and they had, they were carrying the luggage on their head, right? You know, and some of them went down on their knees because they didn't know how to navigate stairs. I mean, they're really people, they don't even have like a curtain. I mean, they don't even have a front door. It's just, you know, we all know each other. So we're not going to be robbing each other, right? We're all, we're all family in the village. So anyway, you, you remind me of all these memories when, as you talk about this. And so that's a classic example of how, how planning we were and how devoted we are to each other. And, and also our, our union was amazing,

33:27because even months after we had gone, uh, bankrupt, they said, tips for your resume. And, uh, and so I was hiring and all that. People have to remember again. This is before, you know, emails and all that stuff. So everything was telephone tree. You know, you, you, you agreed to call those five people. And I call those five people. And we're, we're constantly regrouping and, you know, trying to help each other out. And here we are. Yeah. Uh, one of the, the things I'll share with you. So when I started with the Panium Museum Foundation, I wrote a couple grants and one of the assessors, they anonymously share their feedback. They said, I don't understand what a defunct bygone airline has to do with humanities and history. Uh-oh, you insult to me. Well, it, it, it wasn't insult at first. But really, that was, that's been driving me and my Panium work ever since. So everything we've done up until this point that I've worked on, Operation Baby Lift, the Panium podcast, um, we covered many times

34:34with the Panium podcast, for instance, uh, how Panium dealt with employees that were suffering from HIV AIDS in the 1980s. Oh, absolutely. And how that was different from some of the other companies and airlines at that time. Yeah, it was a devastating time. And, and you know what that is? That's all humanities. Yes, absolutely. And it's all history. So I, I wish I would have known, uh, who, what, what humanities scholar, uh, you know, wrote that comment because I would love to send them, uh, you know, all of our work and be like, this has everything to do with humanities and history. So you're absolutely right. And, and from that experience was so, so difficult. And when I moved out to LA in like around 2000, I volunteered, I, I did, uh, well, I volunteered for the AIDS Project Los Angeles. And, uh, I'm not a runner, but at age 49, I ran my first marathon. And so you, you know, you would pledge you get people to, you know, sponsor you and everything like that. Uh, and I'm going to write about it in, in my second memoir. It's going to be called,

35:38uh, 26.2 for PWAs or people with AIDS. You know, it was a, it was a very difficult time. And I, I think, yeah, I mean, it, you know, heartbreaking, you know, but people like, I mean, I lost several people of, uh, good, good, good dear friends. They would just get one, you know, and AZT was $1100 a month. How on the hell would be scale flight attendant? Can you pay in $1980 dollars, $1100 a month for, yeah, and it was, it was still kind of semi experimental, you know? Sure. Uh, so, you know, I got a couple comments from that episode. Uh, surprisingly, I, I didn't get any hate mail. I thought for sure I was going to get some hate mail and I did not. Um, but they did say that, that we did something with that episode on the podcast that, uh, to their knowledge, no one else has ever done. And that it, I mean, normally when you talk about the 1980s and the AIDS epidemic, it's always from a family standpoint or a friend standpoint. We looked at it from a, uh,

36:40American corporation standpoint. And that's how we told the story through co-workers. So that was a great comment that they shared. Uh, I'm sure there has been historians and journalists that have explored the, uh, workplace and co-worker angle of the AIDS crisis. But, um, it, it was, it was nice to hear that this gentleman, uh, really appreciated what we did. And really, I mean, we, we have, you know, we, we did a couple episodes on Lockerbee. We interviewed one of the flight attendants that perished, uh, one of her brother, um, and then also Linda Freyr and, uh, Rosie, um, who were on the ground in Lockerbee in 1988 after the crash. Yes. Um, you know, we, we talked about terrorism, uh, you know, where the airport security program started with September 11th, 1970 in the Nixon administration, uh, which is fascinating because that's, that's really

37:42early on. Yeah. I mean, it's just, wow. So for me, it's fascinating that Pan Am history is pretty much connected to everything. And I challenge anyone, uh, when they listen to the Pan Am podcast, um, you know, if they say, well, what does this have to do with Pan Am? Uh, you're kidding me. Pan Am searches everywhere. So I know it's, it's remarkable. I mean, yeah, and you're doing such an amazing job of encapsulating all of it because I know, I know it's not, it's not easy because in any of these given stories that they're talking about, uh, there, there's so many ass, uh, at, aspects of it. And there's so many roads to go down as you're interviewing people that were very close to the incident or, or, or, or their own career, how it dovetailed with, uh, you know, like, the man that was with the CIA and then, and then got involved with Pan Am or, uh, you know, and,

38:43and I got to say this, your interview with, uh, Steve's, uh, Steve Ford, uh, President Gerald or Ford's son and Tui Williams. I listened to that when I was in, uh, Darwin, Australia, a few months ago on, uh, September, on the layover, honey, I was fighting back tears. It was a good thing I was by myself because I couldn't even see, you know, I'm just fighting back tears. I mean, it was just amazing. It was so pointed and so beautiful. And you got right to the core of what's going on and their friendship and, and I mean, I just, I just love that story. It just, it really hit on all cylinders. Well, thank you. Absolutely fantastic. Yeah. I should listen to that. Yeah. I appreciate that. Uh, one of my recent episodes, um, I interviewed the co-screen writer of Top Gun. I love that. Yeah. And, you know, again, humanities is about, you know, the people's story, the human stories. Uh, so the Pan Am connection there, um, it wasn't, you know, a direct connection,

39:44but the Pan Am connection there was number one, this is the gentleman that co-wrote the most famous aviation movie of all time. And it did. Yeah. Why wouldn't we take the opportunity to interview him? But the real Pan Am connection there was there, one of his students, uh, her name's Kate, uh, she's in her mid 20s now. She started listening to the Pan Am podcast and she started loving Pan Am history. Yeah. And now she's writing, you know, a screenplay, um, that centered on Pan Am. Oh, how amazing. So the Pan Am podcast was the connective tissue in that episode. Right. Um, so, you know, again, I challenge anybody in, in all of the episodes we've done, some of them, there's a more direct connection to Pan Am, uh, others, you know, like, for instance, Sam Donaldson, celebrated ABC News, uh, correspondent for many, many years in an area. Right. Uh, he flew on Pan Am

40:45for White House press charters. So that's good enough connection for me to have that question about his life. Um, yes, yes. So it doesn't have to be 100% about Pan Am. And I think that's the success of our humanities and history podcast, the Pan Am podcast is, um, you know, as long as there's, you know, just an ounce of connective tissue, um, Edith head, for instance, we did a whole episode on her, uh, because she designed one of the Pan Am uniforms in the late 1970s before you joined. Right. Um, um, and that was a celebrated, uh, uh, uh, uniform in the Pan Am collection. Uh, so why wouldn't we be talking about her life and her history as a famous Hollywood costume designer? Right. Right. Of course. And then the connection is so strong like you say, now I'm scribbling down the names of, um, I, I had flown, uh, so like during the, it was August of 1991 when there was attempted coup against, uh, against, uh, Gorbachev. And so it was August. So he was on

41:50vacations as DACA in Crimea. And, uh, you know, the, uh, communications were so crazy in those days. So, you know, when, when Pan Am decided to fly in and go to Moscow anyway, we had the briefing in New York. And the captain simply said, we're going to listen to Presswick and we're going to listen to BBC, uh, one radio as, as we're crossing the Atlantic. If anything changes, we're just, we're just going to divert to Helsinki. And I only had about 35 passengers on board because nobody could get a fix, including some people from our embassy. Nobody could get a fix on what's going on. But during that time, I flew, uh, Tom Brokaw, uh, back from, uh, uh, Moscow to New York. And, uh, Jill Dirty, and you still see her from time to time being interviewed because she was, uh, the, the Moscow correspondent, I don't know if she was the anchor there or exactly what her position was, but she is a lovely lady and she really knows her stuff. And you see her a lot of times being interviewed now about, you know, anything about Russia because she, you know, she remembers. And then when I did White House press chargers, I would have, uh, Charles Beerbauer and, uh, uh,

42:55just a number. And from, you know, a Charles Frost press, uh, maybe UPI, Helen Thomas, and anybody, you know, it's just amazing. Cause I, I'm a news hell too. It's like, I would get it on the plane and say, okay, who if I got, you know, who if I got it? So it's, I, I hear you, it dovetails perfectly because we, we were news makers. So it, it's a marriage made in heaven, so to speak, you know, and I, and I think, uh, history from 1927 to 1991, Pan Am either played a secondary role or a primary role in almost every important historical event. Uh, World War II, for example, uh, you know, Pan Am was pivotal in the networks that resupplied the allies, uh, going on secret missions, flying, uh, Winston Churchill across the Atlantic back and forth. Uh, for me as a historian, the Pan Am story, people always say, you know, when, when are you going to run out of stories? And I said, I don't, I don't think

43:57people are so funny. Or like the, uh, the, the toxin, uh, it was a Casablanca and World War II with Roosevelt. And I was looking, there's a, um, uh, a documentary about Air Force One, and you can find only ones about 45 minutes. It's on like, uh, United Airlines, you, you go poking around and, uh, and it shows that the route that they took said had to keep making fuel. He's talking about 46 hours to get there. I, I don't know my first name or my social security number after 46 hours on an airplane. You know, I mean, that, that's really amazing. So I have a beer trivia question for your listeners that I will ask you. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. So, so there's, so it's, it's kind of a trick question. Um, who was the first president to fly? I have no idea to tell you the truth. I'm not going to act like I know the answer because I don't. So the, and if you would have said Roosevelt, I would have had a follow-up question and asked, will which one? Because former president Teddy Roosevelt was the first president to fly in an

45:01aircraft. However, Franklin D. Roosevelt was the first president to fly as a sitting president. Okay. And he flew on Pan American World Airways. There you go. Um, on, on the Dixie Clipper. Yes. So my second trick question is which two sitting US presidents have flown on a commercial airline? So we are, I already said Franklin D. Roosevelt flew on Pan Am. Okay. Who's the second one? I don't know. So the day after Christmas, 1972, uh, Richard Nixon wanted to fly a commercial to send a message about the oil crisis and saving money, even though it was a big debacle because he flew on a United L-1011. Okay. Um, the East Coast to the West Coast. But Air Force One was actually flying behind, uh, for security reasons. Uh, but he actually flew on one flight when he was a sitting

46:05president on United Airlines, L-1011. And, you know, how Air Force One, uh, when the president is on board, no matter what, uh, military aircraft it is, it's either Air Force One or Marine One or Army One. Um, you know, it's always one. So a commercial airliner this time around was carrying a sitting US president. And it was referred to with the call sign executive one. Okay. I didn't know that. Yeah. I hadn't heard that before. Okay. So that's it. Um, other than that, all sitting US presidents have flown on, uh, military aircraft. So along these same lines, have you ever been, okay, so like tail 26,000 is, is the 707 that, uh, John Kennedy was on. Yes. The day that he, he was assassinated. And there was a pan Am. I believe was 727 that, uh, that flew alongside, uh, that Air Force One. Now, tail 27,000 is out here at, uh, president, uh, Ronald Reagan's, uh, library. Yes. Have you been on board? Have you seen it? Yes.

47:09So, um, fortunately for me, 26,000 is at the US Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio, which is only, uh, an hour from me. Um, so for your listeners, if you ever find yourself in Ohio, uh, the Dayton US Air Force Museum is fantastic. Um, it will, it will consume at least a day or two, uh, but you can go right on all the presidential aircraft from FDR to Clinton because Clinton used 26,000. Okay. Now, the thing about 26,000, we're talking, uh, to your listeners, we're talking about the Boeing 707, uh, that, that, uh, Kennedy took to Dallas and Nixon took to China. Uh, and you can go right on board it. It's, it's amazing. You can stand right where President Johnson was sworn in, uh, right on the same spot. I went to, uh, one time it was on static display at Andrew's, um, Air Force base in Maryland. Uh, I went on board then. Yeah. Describe the listeners because it's

48:14so interesting. Well, well, what's interesting about that plane is after it was, um, it became a secondary Air Force one, uh, for the president and also Air Force two for the vice president, but it was also used for cabinet members and also visiting heads of state. So it flew Queen Elizabeth the second around, uh, I believe in the 70s. Oh, no kidding. I didn't know. Yeah. So I do know she likes to come to Kentucky and see that, uh, what she did, you know, the, the, the race forces and all that. Anyway, so it was used as an executive, uh, kind of aircraft for military personnel, secretary of state, uh, secretary of defense, so those kinds of things. Um, so the interior, uh, when you go on board, um, there's a lot of original interior, but also it, the last time it was used and it was in the late 1990s. So it's kind of been cut up and they haven't restored the interior of what it looked like when it was primarily Air Force one

49:14for the president. Uh, the one in California at the Ronald Reagan Library, um, was pretty much untouched. So when you walk on that plane, that's how it looked like when it was primarily Air Force one, uh, with, I believe the first president that flew on it was, uh, I think it was Johnson and then Nixon and Ford and Carter and, and the rest, uh, up to, I believe it stopped flying in 91, but I, I could be wrong for that aircraft. Um, and then there's also one at the Boeing, um, museum of flight, uh, up in Seattle that was a secondary Air Force one. So that's also a 707, uh, and the interior looks exactly, um, how it did when it was serving as Air Force one with the president. So the one in, in Dayton is not, the interior is not quite what it looked like when it

50:15was flying the president outside of when it picked up Bill Clinton because the 747 got stuck in the mud somewhere in the center. Honey, happens to the best of us, right? Um, but can I, I, I just want to interject something here. You already know this, but I want the listeners to hear about it. Linda Faire brought to my attention because I did not know this, uh, before when I went to, uh, tail 27, uh, 27,000 at, uh, Reagan's museum, uh, you know, they, they make a brief comment about it, but they don't go into any details that that's the airplane that, that a president Carter and president Ford were on when they went over to Cairo after Ann Warsadot got assassinated. I believe in 1981. That's, that's correct. Actually Richard Nixon was on it too. So the represidents were on it. Uh, what a security nightmare. That must have, especially going to the Middle East, but, but on the way back how Carter and, uh, and, uh, President Carter and

51:16President Ford became lifelong friends. I love that. That's correct. Nixon, Nixon went on, uh, to do something in Europe. So he, uh, you know, said that he didn't need to ride back. Um, and on the way back it was just President Carter and President Ford and that's, you know, that Linda is correct. That's where, from that deep friendship, uh, you know, blossomed out of that trip. I love that story. And I met Jason Carter, uh, that Carter foundation came out to, uh, Beverly Hills, um, like in March. And I have a picture with him and I, I want to interview him from my show and then I would love to interview Steve Ford and I, and I want to explore that friendship between the two families and more. It's a beautiful story. It's very hard. It's a beautiful, yeah. And, uh, Steve Ford, uh, you know, would tell me stories about, um, at President Carter's funeral, he gave the eulogy that his dad wrote. Right. And just, you know, Jason Carter and Steve Ford, um, and, and that's what America needed at that

52:19time, uh, right before the transition to the new administration. I'm kind of a, a, a reminder that, hey, we can disagree on, on politics and policy. Exactly right. Yeah. We're all human and we're all American. Yes. And we all need to treat each other with respect and dignity. Um, and I asked Steve Ford. I said, uh, what was it like standing in front of all of these presidents? And the former president that is the president elect, um, talking about almost giving them a lecture through your, your dad's words. I love it. Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Yes. And he said it was kind of a surreal experience. I love it. I love it. Speaking truth to power, right? Oh my God. It's been such a delight, uh, interviewing you, Tom. Do you have anything else that you want to say about the story we were just speaking about before we signed off? So passion projects. So the pan, my panam work is all volunteer and it's a passion project. So, uh, in the spirit of this

53:25I encourage all of our listeners to find something that you're interested in, uh, find something that, that brings you joy that you're passionate about and volunteer your time for that effort. It doesn't have to do, to do anything with your career. Um, you know, for, for example, I love Star Wars and I dress up in Star Wars costumes for cancer kids. Um, you know, that's, that's another passion project, if mine. And the history, all my history work is all my passion project. So I encourage everyone listening, find something that you're really interested in that brings you joy and, uh, carve out some of your time and make some of your time, uh, dedicated to that effort, whatever it may be. It's perfect advice. It's, it's perfect advice because we're all here for whatever reason and there's so much to do in life and, and like pursue your dreams, like, like a dog with a bone and you know, they're, they're British like to say fortune favors the brave. So if you step outside of your comfort zone, yet, you know, along the way,

54:30universe will give you some signs that you're on the right path. Exactly. This is good for the soul. It's good for the soul. Exactly right. So listen, I have a really fun gift for you. And so after we sign off, just text me your address, will you? No, sure. Absolutely. All right. Thanks a million, Tom. And also, uh, do you want to tell them the, the website so they can find your podcast? Sure. So the, the podcast, it's called the Panium podcast. It's available wherever you listen to podcasts, Apple podcasts, Spotify, and so forth. The, the Panium Museums web address, we actually have two, the panamuseum.org or panam.info. It will take you to the same website. I like to use panam.info because it's easier to remember. Right. And you can listen to the podcast right on the website or, uh, you can click on a link and it will take you to your favorite, uh,

55:30application that you listen to podcasts on. So, um, and then you can also find our YouTube channel on, uh, YouTube, just type in Panium Museum and you will find in our YouTube channel there. And we have 300 videos, commercials, documentaries, a whole bunch of stuff. You guys are amazing. Well, thank you for what you do and your enormous contribution to Panium's memory and, and, and just, keep, being some of the glue that helps keep us together. I love it. It's the fabulous. You're on a really good mission, Tom. It's my honor. It really is. Thanks a million. Take care, hun. We'll talk to you soon. You've been listening to the global gratitude show with Tongue Anderson here on the Brushwood Media Network. Every week, Tongue brings stories that remind us. Gratitude is a universal language, one that transcends borders, upless hearts, and inspires us to give back. If today's conversation touched your heart, share the gift of gratitude. Pass this episode along to someone you love and help the ripple of kindness grow. Join us next time for more

56:34voices of compassion, joy and hope, celebrating the goodness that unites us all. Until then, remember, be kind, stay grateful, and keep sharing the love.