The End of Ed the Protestant (#441)

0:00If you ache for truth, goodness, and beauty, if you're hungry for a Christianity with substance and strength, if you long for a faith that's big and bold and biblical and all about Jesus Christ, if you're inspired by the idea of one church that has spanned 20 centuries, 24 times zones, and two hemispheres in folding every race, nation, and language. Then you're considering Catholicism. So Ed, this is the second part of a conversation that we started. And in the first part, we did this epic rant about how people get burnt out on church. And then we stopped at the recorder, and then we had a second conversation where we were

1:03going to kind of follow up on that and talk about the journey of Ed the Protestant, because we could tease that in that episode. It went from you know, be you being burned out and yada yada yada, and then how that has set you up for us to share with everybody the this update about Ed the Protestant. However, due to technical issues, I was noticing in the first episode that came out the other day that you had a little bit of like echo in your mind, and it surprises me because with your lifetime as a musician, handling like patch cords and recording equipment, somehow there was something goofed up in the system, but the echo wasn't so bad that we couldn't listen to it, so we released that episode. But then the next conversation where you updated the audience about things and the demise of Ed the Protestant, that's a tease, you know,

2:07then it was like the echo was so bad, it wasn't usable so. Then we had to like just toss that away. And I think that I don't want to get overly spiritual about that, but maybe the Lord, maybe the Lord was just saying, you guys could have done that conversation better. That that occurred to me, that thought occurred. And so now it is like a week later and we have reconstituted this, we have regathered and we are now we're using a little mobile rig and what should be more problem free. And we are picking up this. So we talked about being burnt out about church and how Ed got super burned out about church and then four years ago, an episode number eight, you ranted in your first appearance on the show about how burnt out you are about church. And then for the last four years, we've been sitting here, which brings us to this moment. And I give the floor to you.

3:08All right, I won't tease it any longer. We're going to have to think of a new name for me, because I'm going to be joining the Catholic Church. Finally, I mean, maybe you could edit in some big musikers. Yeah, just singing like you, in Gillette choir or da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, like the Mexican hat dance or something. Yeah, you could and you could add a big, put a big, a big reverb on my voice. That's right. Yeah. I finally had a really, I've been praying about this, of course, for three years, that my significant other, Mrs. Ed the Protestant, would soften a little bit and she did. And I actually said out loud as we were preparing it, we were just going to take a long ride on a Sunday and go check on our vacation place and, you know, whatever. And I had a little, I just said out loud, guardian angel, if you're listening, prompt me. I know you're going to be in the

4:14car. If the thing comes up, nudge me hard. And the situation did. And so we talked about it and she said, yeah, if you want to go ahead. And then I thought, well, okay, but that'll be next Easter. It'll be a year. Because every year I would think, hey, maybe this Easter. And then no, and then okay, well, I got another year to go. And then you told me that the Bishop and the local diocese had asked the parishes to start a mid-year O CIA class for people who had already been baptized. And we're already validly baptized and we're Christians. And those people were candidates, right? Okay. So it would be the Catecumans, who would come in at Easter because they were actually converting to Christianity based. That's going to start here. I don't know in a couple months whenever you guys get it up and running. And by next fall, I'll be in. And I'm, I find it to be a little heavier than I was anticipating. I thought, well, when I finally get

5:18to this point, it'll be hooray. But now it's not way off. And now it's not, it's not, you know, now about, now instead of just planning the vacation, I'm getting on the airplane. And now it's different. It's not bad. But I find it a little heavier. How so unpack that a little bit? You know, I'll be, I'll be saying, I'll be, I'll be doing something I can't undo. Or I shouldn't undo. This is not like walking into the, the local big evangelical church where the new member class is meet for three, you meet for three times for an hour or twice for an hour. And there's Donuts and coffee. This is different. This is six months of setting you up to succeed. And in getting you explaining to you all the things you need to know. And then I'll be saying, I'll be standing up in front and saying, yes, in front of everybody. It's, it's a big deal. And it will change.

6:19And that's all good. But it will change. I will now be, how do I put this? It's not a bad thing. But I'll be, I'll be under the auspices of the authority of the church, right? And then there are things that the church and God will expect of me that have are not being expected of me now and not in that way. And so, you know, I'll need to be going to Mass on the weekends every weekend, which will change how I spend my weekends. We have a little vacation place, a little hour and a half north. And Sunday mornings have always been lay around and then go to breakfast. And now I'm going to be up probably early finding an early Mass someplace or going on Saturday. It's going to change things. It's not, and I'm such a free spirit that this is a little bit like joining the military. You know, I'm going to, I'm going to join. I'm going, I'm joining. And I'm not going to unjoin. And they're, and they're going to have the church is going to have things to say about my life. And I'm, I'm ready for it. And I want it. And let's go. But it, it's so it's

7:24heavy, but not in a, it's like when I got married, right? Oh, I'm really doing this. You know, I mean, I'm really doing this. I'm like, this is not going to be easily undone. So that's what I mean by heavy. It's a little heavier. Yeah, I think that's, I think that's well said. And I think there's actually a couple of things in there that are worth, I think exploring the name of this show is considering Catholicism. And you know, it's real deliberate. When I was trying to think of the name of the show, we talk about Catholicism on this show. And by Catholicism, I always mean the totality of it, which is the theology and the, and the culture and the art and the history and the practice and, and the church and the whole, the whole combination plate. Right. And in one sense, Catholicism, I've had a lot of conversations with people about this over the last four years

8:27about the show, not always on the show, but about the show offline, is that in some ways Catholicism is a bigger thing than just the Catholic church. And I friends would argue the other way around, but I go, well, wait a minute, you know, somebody can go to walk through a beautiful cathedral somewhere and see Catholic, and that's part of Catholicism. You can listen to music and art, and you can appreciate the intellectual history and the social doctrines of the church. And in that sense, Catholicism influences so many things, Catholic literature. But the Catholic church, which is the ground of all of that, the source of all of that, is a very specific thing. And so there's a lot of people who are attracted to Catholicism, as a, I, you know, system of ideas

9:33and thought and art and history and literature and perspective and all of that. And I hear from most people all the time that they're intrigued by Catholicism. And we talk about Catholicism on the show. But at the end of the day, it isn't just about anism. At the end of the day, you, you, you sort of follow that back to the source and the source is actually the Catholic church. It's the fountain from which all of that comes. If that makes sense, the spring, the well spring of all of that. And that brings you to this point where you have to say, okay, I may be attracted to Catholicism, but am I willing to, right, to step through the portal and become part of the Catholic church? Well, I've never been, I was never looking for, and I was never looking for just a better system. I don't care about it. In fact, when Mrs. Protestant and I were in the car, she said, well, are you just, could you just sort of join it sort of nominally? You know, or whatever.

10:38And I said, no, there would be no point. They ask a lot. I'm not doing this because it's cool. It's a cooler way to approach God. That's a very, I see that as a very Protestant, that would be a very Protestant way to approach church. Well, I'm looking for a better system. Our system is better. This church is this denomination. Our system is better. I'm interested in following God. And I'm interested in being a Christian following Christ. And so the system is what I get, whatever, to whatever extent there's a system. The system is what I get when I join the church. It's not that I, you know, I don't, so I don't care about that. Yeah, you know, I'd actually, I'd take it one step further. I literally could not do this without you because this show is 100% listener supported. There are no ads, no sponsors. So if the episodes are helping you to understand the faith

11:40to answer your questions or draw you closer to historic Catholic Christianity, would you consider becoming a patron? For as little as $5 a month, you'll get every regular episode organized into topical playlists, plus exclusive bonus content, extra conversations, video Q&As, deep dives, live streams, behind the scenes, and more. Just head to patreon.com forward slash considering Catholicism or tap the link in the show notes. Together, we're educating, equipping, and exciting people about the beauty of the Catholic faith. I agree with what you're saying, and I'd actually double down on that because when you talk about you do this and it's a one way ticket, because you can't undo it, that goes to something really important about the Catholic church, and that is the sacramental nature. So the sacrament

12:47alternates, alter us ontologically. That's a fancy philosophy word, ontology, is ontology is the branch of philosophy of ethics, and you have this and metaphysics. Ontology is about being, what something is. So you'll hear somebody using fancy words, we'll talk about the nature of what something actually is. It's ontological nature. And what the sacraments do in Catholic theology, of course, is that the sacraments bring ontological change. It changes what something is. It's not just a surface effect. So let me give you an example, baptism. You can't get unbaptized, even in the Protestant church, you can't be unbaptized. Once you're, but especially in Catholicism, as we understand, well, maybe in some evangelical understandings where baptism is just for some

13:51external symbol where you're just symbol, I've made a decision for Jesus and I'm making a public statement. Maybe that's different. But ontologically, once you've been baptized, you can't get unbaptized. It alters what you are. And there's no point in getting rebaptized as sometimes happens in Christ. Correct. You can't be rebaptized because you've actually made a fundamental all ontological change in a thing. There was a time before that person was baptized, before that person was reborn in Christ and regenerated in Christ. And then there was a moment after that from which they are a regenerated Christian. Now, they can be a lapsed Christian. They can be baptized and never go to church, but they can never be unbaptized. And in the same way, that's one of the differences when we talk about the Catholic sacrament of matrimony. And you know, you've been very honest on this show about going through your

14:53annulment process, which was one of the reasons why you delayed this, because a Protestant understanding of marriage, which is a covenant agreement between two people that can be broken if there's sufficient grounds and fidelity to that. But the reason why we have annulments in the Catholic church is that the Catholic church sees matrimony, like the other sacraments, creating an ontological change within a person. So there was a time before you were married matrimonially, and that alters who you are, and it can never be undone. You can't unring the bell. Any more than you can get unbaptized, you can't get unmarried. The annulment process is a determination as to whether or not you ever actually were experienced the sacrament of matrimony. But if you did, if you have experienced the sacrament of

15:55matrimony, it's permanent. It's one way ticket. There's no undoing it. No unringing the bell. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. The same way with other sacraments, like the other sacrament of vocation, is holy orders. So once someone is ordained as a priest, they can never not be a Catholic priest. They can be a fallen Catholic priest. They can be a Catholic priest that has been excommunicated. They can be a Catholic priest that has no faculty and it has no longer has permission to operate as a priest. From the church can no longer perform priestly functions. But the sacrament of holy orders fundamentally alters that person's soul. So they might be an ex priest, but they're still in a sense in terms of what they do. So where am I going with all this? You can see where I'm going with this. Once you go through the sacraments of initiation into the Catholic church,

16:58baptism, confirmation, first Eucharist, you are a Catholic. You were a part of the Catholic church. You can be a lapsed Catholic. You can be a Catholic that's never hasn't gone to Mass in 20 years. You can be a Catholic who hasn't gone to Mass in 20 years and now goes to a Protestant church or now goes to a Buddhist church or now worships the great Oreo in the sky that can never go stale. Whatever, but you are a Catholic. And then just as a quick aside here, this is one of the reasons why the Catholic church will count Catholics and people say, well, those people haven't been to Mass in 20 years. So why do you still count them as Catholics? Because they are Catholics. Right. They're just Catholics that have been to Mass in 20 years. Whereas if you go to your your evangelical big box church, big box store, the members are only people are active.

18:02Right. So you're doing it. And if you've been going and you've been giving, you're a member. Right. And if you stop, you're not a member anymore. But you are always going to be a member of the Catholic church and you're going to be Catholic and you can't unring that bell. You can't undo the ontological change in you. So you're right. It's a heavy step because because it does fundamentally change who you are. You become part of the Catholic church. Right. This is what I've been looking for all my life. I mean, I've talked a lot about this and you go back and listen to the old episodes, but especially the early ones. But then I'm talking about me and on my journey through this. But you know, I'm in my 60s. And I've been looking for this all my life. I am. This feels and this feels to me like what I've been looking for. Like we talked several episodes earlier about the end of the CS, the Narnia last battle, the last Narnia book

19:04and how, you know, it was it was more real than, you know, than the real world when the characters entered the next life. And that's how that's what you asked me last couple of weeks ago when we first did this. What was it that kept drawing me, that drew me into it? And the, it's a couple of things. But one of them is that this just seems this is a better way to put it than I did in that recording. This just seems more real and more real and more connected to God and far deeper and far. I'm never going to come to the end of this. Yeah. The perspective is interesting. Like on the one hand, you could look at it and go, man, this is too heavy. I had I recently had a conversation with somebody who is considering Catholicism about whether they want to pull the trigger and go go ahead and join the church or go through the process. And they were like, well, you know, there's certain I certain things about Catholicism that I like. But it just like you, but it feels

20:09super heavy to make this commitment because what if I change my mind and you know, all of that. And I remember in the course of the conversation saying to this person, at some point, you're going to give your life to something. Right. I mean, this is the old Bob Dylan song about you got to serve somebody. You know, you're going to give your life to your career ambitions trying to, you know, make money and be successful in your career or you're going to give your life to your addictions or you're going to give your life to your hobbies or you're going to give your life to something. And at the end of the day, what you have to ask is, am I giving my life to something that's worth giving my life to because you're going to give you, you're going to spend your life. You've got so many chips and you're going to spend your chips. You don't have a choice. You will, you will spend the chips of your life on something. And I, you know, I said to this person, maybe you

21:16reflect on all the things that you could give it to what's worthy. Right. And I think for all the ways that we've talked on the show for the last four years, I think for me, you know, for me in my house, the Catholic church that is worth my life. Yeah. Now does that mean individual Catholic leaders, does that mean, you know, father, so and so or a bishop, so but somebody or there can be scandals and there can be messes and you can get frustrated with it all day long. There's that famous honorary block quote where he said, you know, the proof that the church, that the Catholic church is divine, that it was established by Christ and is divining in nature is that it has lasted 2,000 years because anything run with this level of his words, naivish imbicility,

22:18should not have lasted 2 weeks. Right. And to some degree, you know, you can, you will quickly look around and go, that's naivish imbicility. I can't believe we're doing that. I can't believe that bishop so and so did that or father so and so said that or that we mismanaged this Catholic agency this way. But at the end of the day, when you look at, what is it that line in C.S. Losis screw tape letters where he, you know, he's talking about how to deceive the human. And he says, make sure that the human never sees the church the way that the demons see it as an army spread out in space and time with banners flapping in the wind. You know, you got to give your life to something and it and something's going to claim it. And like you say, about it being more real, I think for all of you out there who are listening or considering, I don't know what else in this world I've ever seen that is more worthwhile. Well, you know, for me to commit my life to when you

23:21were talking about the person who's wondering whether they want to pull the trigger or not, you know, you have to count the cost. Yeah, you have to, and that's one of the things that makes it feel worthy to me is that there's a cost, doesn't cost anything to join like the church that we've been attending. They don't ask anything of you at all. Well, you know, right in in economics or whatever business, you also talk about the opportunity cost, which is the cost of not doing something. Right. And I think you're right. There's a cost to becoming Catholic. There's an opportunity cost to not becoming Catholic. And I remember, you know, we've shared my story of course with you and I've shared it on the show many times, but you know, we had reached a point my wife and I had where we were ready to, we were right, where you are. We were ready to pull the trigger. Let's go in OCIA. Let's do this. And then we put

24:23that off for a couple of years because there were various things in our life that were going on at the time where it was like one more year, one more year. And I remember it was somebody had died or something. And I remember we were like, we should we wait one more year and I said in my wife, if something happens to me, I want to die in the Catholic church. If I get T-bone by the cement truck right this afternoon, I want to have died a Catholic because the opportunity cost to have to have lived my life and finished it and missed the opportunity to be part of the one holy Catholic and apostolic church and to and to die in it that that opportunity cost is too high. So whatever it costs me to do it, I also have to weigh the cost of not doing it. Yeah. So we're going to need to call me something differently. Yeah. So this is, you know, the end of the Protestant, the demise of the Protestant or will be,

25:24so we got to think about rebranding you. Am I could I temporarily be at the candidate? Yes. You can be at the candidate. Okay. Am I right now even though I have not started OCIA? Yeah. Well, I just by the power of asking me is the OCIA director. I hear by, uh, okay. Since I'm the, in fact, we're recording this in the OCIA classroom. Oh, yeah. Because it was, we were going to go out to the, uh, to the secret compound today because, um, but for the first time this season, but it is raining and raining and raining outside, uh, all last night and all through the day. So it's not a good day to be out there in the pouring rain. But so we, we did a called an audible and we came over here to the OCIA classroom. So this is your, this is your space. This is where, and so by the power vested in me as the OCIA program director, I, I dubbed the head the candidate. Uh, but yeah. So for all of you who are listening, yeah, that is a, the thing that more and more dioceses are changing over to, which is that there's

26:28two kinds of just to explain it. There's two kinds of people, uh, cat people, dog people, whatever. There's catacumans in candidates and catacumans are those who have never been baptized because baptized, baptism makes ontological change. Not just baptized in the Catholic Church, but baptized anywhere. The Catholic Church recognizes. Baptisms, valid baptisms from other denominations. If it meets the requirements, it's baptized, uh, in a church that affirms the Trinity and baptized in a trinitarian formula for the Son of Holy Spirit. So if you were baptized as a Lutheran or a Presbyterian or a Baptist, yeah, whatever the, the Catholic Church to recognize that you are a baptized Christian. And so catacumans have never received baptism. And so therefore, at to come into full communion with the church, they need to receive the three sacraments of initiation, which are baptism, confirmation and their first Eucharist, first communion. But because you are a baptized Christian, uh, you will receive the sacraments of confirmation

27:36in your first communion. Right. And you're called a candidate as opposed to a catacuman. So what a lot of parishes in the United States and maybe in other countries, I don't know, have done for a very long time is lump candidates and catacumans together into one class. And everybody enter the church at the Easter vigil. Now, that's the way that I, it was for me and for, for a lot of people. But a lot of our bishops have been moving away from that and saying, for a lot of reasons, and saying, no, the Easter vigil is for catacumans who receive baptism, confirmation in first, I think, communion and that more and more now, what we're doing is, is bringing in candidates in a sort of separate process at different times throughout the year. So right now, we're trying to settle on at our parish, what that date of that's going to be, but it's going to be sometime in the fall. So we will be putting together a group of candidates to be prepared for, for entering the church via the right of reception in the fall at a Sunday

28:40mass. But if you're out there listening and you have, have never been baptized, then you want to call your OCA director or your parish, contact your parish and figure out how to be, get in the process as a catacuman at the next Easter vigil. And then, but if you have been validly baptized, you need to talk to your OCA director and plan the path at that parish for how they're going to do that and you become a candidate. So we're going to work with a group of people and sometime in the fall, had the candidate will then become at the Catholic. Yeah. So what we're going to do, so there's a little bit of a bittersweet moment for this, but pretty exciting because, you know, at the Protestant, the demise of the Protestant and the transition, the, what do you call the, like the transformation? What do you have like a butterfly? What do they call it? Oh, yeah. The larva or something becomes a butterfly and metamorphosis. There we go. There we go. The metamorphosis of Ed the Protestant to Ed the candidate, which has been really interesting

29:43for the last four years for you. And I think pretty brave of you for allowing people to watch that process. Well, thanks. And I'll probably say this again later on, but thanks for discipling me. It was up. I feel, you know, a lot of, I know a lot of people write in and they say, oh, you know, love the podcast and all that. And I feel kind of special. Don't call me special. Don't with that my whole life that I'm the one who's, you know, I'm your friend and I get to sit here and get this all coming right at me. No, it's been great. And all the tacos have been good. And none of that's going to stop. So it's, and you're, and you're going to continue to be part of the show forever, but it's been fun for people to watch this. And I know how many people are out there cheering for you because I get so many emails from people about, and we love Ed, and we love Ed the Protestant. And, but you know, when is Ed the Protestant going to become at the Catholic and you go, well, you are holding, he's like a fat little worm and his cocoon

30:43and transforming into the beautiful butterfly. Well, if you're listening and you've been praying for me, thank you. Yeah, that means a lot. That's, wow, that's a, I just kind of have no idea who writes in. And so, you know, is it six people? Well, they can still write to you. So you, keep your, I would keep your email because you'll always kind of, so once you share with everybody, if you want to write Ed directly, Ed the Protestant, all lowercase, all run together, Ed the Protestant at Yahoo.com. There you go. Super simple. And I've already got a hand, excuse me, a handful of people I correspond with. Well, I'm sure you may get a couple more here when they find out. So this is pretty exciting. And you'll continue to be part of the show. But the next time you come on the show, you'll be at the candidate. I'm predicting it, it'll be interesting. I think we'll have some interesting talks when I start going through OCEIA. I think that will be, yeah, that will be helpful for people who have not done it maybe. I think so. So fantastic. Great stuff. All right. And you got to figure out what's going on with your headphones at home so that we can continue to do the

31:47remote thing. But hopefully the next time we get together and you're at the candidate, we'll be doing it at the secret compound. Yep. Okay. Great. Thank you. We'll be back with another episode very soon. And this show is 100% listener supported. My patrons keep the lights on and they let me spend more time researching and recording. So that these episodes keep coming. If this show has helped you, would you consider becoming a patron for as little as $5 a month, you'll get every regular episode organized into topical playlists plus exclusive bonus content, extra video Q&As, deep dive courses, live streams and more. Just head to patreon.com forward slash considering Catholicism or tap the link in the show notes. And would you please rate the podcast on whatever platform you're using and write a review on Apple podcasts or on considering Catholicism.com. And you can drop me a line. Patrons can comment

32:51directly on Patreon posts or Spotify. I read everyone or you can always use the contact form at considering Catholicism.com or you can email me at considering Catholicism at gmail.com. I love hearing your questions, your comments and your stories.