The Emmanuel Clase rabbit hole: Roosters, rocks and coded messages

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1:14Back to the Cleveland baseball talk podcast. I'm Joe Noga joined by Paul Hoynes. Lindsey the case against a manual class A and Luis Ortiz. That's ongoing in federal court. Continues to have twists and turns. The latest of which are the revelation on Friday. That class A not only was throwing rigged pitches in as early as 2023. But as some of our our biggest fears have been realized, he was in fact throwing rigged pitches, at least one that the federal government can prove in the 2024 post season at the conclusion of a dominant season by class A during the regular season, a post season in which he went on to with a ERA better than nine and had suffered two notable collapses. He indeed did throw a at least one rigged pitch of that pitch being the first pitch of his outing on October 5th in game one against the Tigers.

2:14What was your reaction? You know, not just as a reporter, but just as somebody who's observed a baseball for as long as you have finding out that that class A actually was doing this in the playoffs against the Tigers and that the federal government has proof that he did this. Yeah, just really disappointing. Joe, you know, the whole thing has been disappointing. But that adds even more to it and just kind of solidifies. And at least in my mind that no matter how what the outcome of this trial is, what the outcome of major league baseball's decision is on the class A that he can never pitch again for Cleveland. There's just no way that you can have that guy come back into the locker room and pitch for you when you know that federal authorities have indicted this guy and said he's been throwing rigged pitches not only during the season,

3:15but you know, since 2023, but in the postseason when the whole goal of the organization is to reach the World Series, to win the World Series. And this guy is messing around in the postseason, you know, allegedly. So just really disappointing. It's, you know, it just shows that you that you don't respect the game, that you don't respect yourself that you don't respect, you know, that your teammates are the organization. It's really just a bad, bad look and it just keeps getting worse, Joe. We've been speculating on this, you know, we've done stories on why didn't, you know, federal authorities have in the first indictment in November. Why didn't they say anything about the 2024 season? And especially the 2024 postseason and now we know. Yeah, and, you know, the numbers that himself spoke, spoke volumes in the 2024 postseason.

4:17And a lot of people initially went to the, the collapses that he had of the Grand Slam, or I'm sorry, the home run that he gave up. I believe to Carrie Carfender in that Tiger series, the two run home run that he gave up in the ALCS against Aaron Judge. But on, I don't think on either of those pitches, it really doesn't look like it. And it could be argued that, you know, he was actually trying to get those guys out. I mean, a 98 mile an hour fastball on the black outside to Aaron Judge. There's only one person on earth who can, can hit that ball out of the ballpark in that situation and it's Aaron Judge. Again, we've made that argument before, but, you know, just looking back now that we, you know, you sort of open your eyes to some of the other pitches that were thrown. And I'm watching, right now, as we're talking, I'm watching this video on a loop over and over again, this first pitch to Matt Verling in the ninth inning, October 5th in Game 1. A game that the Guardians were, they were ahead seven nothing at the time.

5:17So, yeah, there was really no risk at all involved, you know, to the team for, with Class A throwing that pitch and having it being rigged. I believe it was supposed to be, it was whether or not the pitch was above or below 99.45 miles an hour. It was what the wager was and it went for $4,000 at one of his conspirators, you know, $4,000 on that bet. Just watching it, it's a spiked 93 mile an hour breaking pitch that Bonaylor, 100% was not expecting. And you can see Bonaylor diving out of the way, bailing on the pitch. It glances off his right shin garden out of play. And you immediately think not only was he risking his reputation, his career and his teammates and whether or not they were winning, but he's risking the health of his catcher. He's risking the health of his teammates in that situation. You know, the ball bounces the wrong way and Bonaylor is out of the game.

6:17It's just really a horrible situation. And this guy, we also learned in this indictment that another co-conspirator has been named and was arrested along with Class A and Ortiz. Robinson Vasquez, Hermosen, but Hermosen, you know, is a friend of Class A's and federal authorities say that he was the middleman between Class A and and betters, that he arranged the bets, that he was Class A's buddy, that he was, you know, a frequent, a frequent person that stayed at Class A's home in Cleveland and went to a lot of Guardians games. And so the thing just keeps getting more and more convoluted. This guy, you know, was arrested in December. He's free on $100,000 bond. And he's also, you know, charged with lying to the FBI. So, you know, just the whole thing is on savory.

7:19And it just keeps getting worse, Joe. Wednesday, all three of these guys will be back in court in, you know, the U.S. District Court in Eastern New York for an arrangement that's Class A, Luisa Ortiz, and Hermosen. So we'll see what comes out of that on Wednesday. Another sort of tidbit that was revealed in the documents and in the filings was some of the covert language that was used in text messages between Class A and his co-conspirators, Jermosen, and that whole group. I would like to read for you now a back-and-forth exchange between and allegedly, this according to the federal government, a back-and-forth exchange between Class A and his co-conspirators. And some of the code words and code names that they used for the pitches. We're talking about roosters and rock throwing. And this is how it goes.

8:20The co-conspirator starts, and the rooster, the same, Class A's reply, yes, the same rooster. The co-conspirator, a throw a rock at the first rooster in today's fight. Class A's response, yes, of course. That's an easy toss to that rooster. Chicken number three, after I kill the first two, play the three. And if I can't kill it, don't play it. I have to kill the first two. So we're talking about throwing rocks at roosters now, the code words and the coded language of rigging pitches in the major leagues now between roosters and rocks. And it's just the craziest of times as we get deeper and deeper into this whole thing. What do you think of the, I guess, you know, roosters and rocks? You use the coded language of things that you know the most familiar with. Yeah, you know, Class A's involved in cock fighting and the Dominican Republic, which is legal. And this is the excuse that they've used. You know, they've evolved three of pleaded innocent, you know, have claimed innocence in this.

9:21And they, they, they, you know, they have said that they told prosecutors, Class A and that, you know, they were talking about making bets on cock fighting and the Dominican Republic. But, you know, the FBI, all these conversations were in Spanish, Joe. The FBI has, you know, intercepted all these conversations. They've translated them into English and the agent to testify in this indictment that was released on Friday. You know, I said that they know that they know enough, you know, about Spanish that they know what was going on. That they weren't talking about cock fighting. They were talking about throwing the legal pitches at certain pitch or fixed pitches at certain parts of the game to certain editors. So the batters could cash in on the prop bets. So it's, it's really interesting. But it's a, it's a convoluted scheme. And so far it hasn't worked, Joe. These guys are facing some serious, some serious, yeah, more developments, obviously upcoming this week.

10:26And, and we'll keep a close eye on that. Let's get into some, some spring training stuff, some actual baseball stuff as opposed to dealing with the court things that are going on. And pretty much everybody is out there in good year right now going through their own workouts and throwing off the mountains and things like that. Just sort of waiting for the first official workout of camp, which comes Tuesday with report day being the Monday. So Stephen votes had a couple of media sessions in the mornings, the last couple of days. And we found out some, some sort of, I guess, key things. A lot of these things are things that we've, we've been talking about all offseason and we kind of kind of knew for certain that certain things would be happening. But, you know, that he's, he's considering he's, he's not considering going with a six man rotation right out of the gate with six starters in camp. And that he anticipates there's going to be a difficult decision there. Yeah, he told the starters, I guess from the first from in their one on one meetings that, you know, he's going with the five man rotation.

11:29You know, they had success with the six man rotation in September, but they're going to open the season with five, which means somebody's going to be unhappy at, at the end of camp. It's going to be a decision that's probably not going to be made until the end of camp, but he told them just go out and pitch and we'll make the decision, make the decision as tough as you can on us. And we'll go from theirs, but it's, you know, we know the road, we know the starters. Tanner Bibi, Gavin Williams, Slate Sikone, Logan Allen, and Parker Messick, you know, and Joey Cantillo. So those are the six guys and we're going to, we'll have to see how it shakes out Joe. Yeah. And the message, I guess vote is really big on the message of you can control what you can control. You can go out there and do your best work and show what you can show and then just let other circumstances sort of happen and fall where they might.

12:30You can't control injuries, you can't control, you know, how your team plays behind you, maybe necessarily in an outing in a cactus league game. You can go out there and execute your pitches to the best of your ability. I think that's a message that particularly those, you know, top three or four guys in the rotation can pick up on. It's really hard to hear when you're a guy fighting for that, that fifth and final spot in the rotation. And especially if you've got, you know, the experience level of a Logan Allen or you've shown the success at, you know, in just a few samples of a Parker Messick, or you've got the potential of a Joey Cantillo. Those guys all have different reasons for coveting that fourth and fifth spot in the, in the rotation. And one of them is going to be disappointed starting the season at AAA as long as, while six of those guys come through spring healthy. And that's not always a given as we've seen on many occasions in the past. You know, I think Logan Allen is going to pitch for Panama in the, in the world baseball classic.

13:35So he's been building up early. He's going to leave. I think they start playing Panama starts playing in Puerto Rico on March six. So he's going to be away from the team for a while. So all this, you know, kind of factors in the options factor in Cantillo is out of options. So, you know, they basically got to find a spot for him either in the rotation or the bullpen or you run the risk of losing them. And yeah, like you said, Allen and Messick really do have a little more flexibility there. Yeah, it's, it's just this rotation battle is going to, you know, from, from the very beginning of camp. All eyes are going to be on it because that sort of makes up a lot of what's going on there where there won't be too much of a battle, a much of a battle at all. Stephen vote coming out and indicating that a Gabriel areas and Brian Roqueo will get the majority of innings and playing time and the first off. They're the first options basically at shortstop and second base. Roqueo obviously came on and had a really strong second half of the season last year after a brief stint in the minors.

14:44And, and, you know, he showed the sort of playoff Roqueo presence that we're used to seeing now. But you can't deny that that position second base is one that is, you know, sort of earmarked for other options later on with this organization with Travis Bessana, the number one overall picked from 2024 climbing the ranks in the minor leagues. So really, you know, Roqueo and areas, you know, sort of cemented in the middle at the start of camp, but are really both of them competing for that shortstop job? Yeah, I don't know, Joe, because, you know, Stephen votes said they could switch it a couple times. You know, you could see Roqueo and at short, you could see, you know, areas at, at second for some, you know, spring training games. But basically those two are going to be in the middle of the diamond, you know, I think most of spring training. And I would think if they both make it too healthy, that's the way it will be on opening day, but you're right, Bessana, you know, should at some point this season make them move to the big leagues.

15:49If he stays healthy and everything goes according to plan, his plans and the guardians, and that should they'll cause a ripple somewhere, Joe, but people are going to be moving around if that's the case. Yeah, and vote also mentioned there will be times when Roqueo plays short and they move Gary Gabriel areas over to third. And when they give Jose Ramirez the day off his feet as a D H or wherever they give him a day off in a game or whatever. Yeah, there's, there are options early on, but expect this to be an area where there could be some volatility, some change at some point during the season as we move forward. But as of right now, according to Stephen vote, it's areas and Roqueo up the middle from the beginning of camp, from the beginning of camp, David Fry working as mainly as a catcher. And this is the time when you know, catchers are in most demand because the, you know, everybody's there with the pictures and thrown off the mountains getting their bullpen's in a learning new faces and getting to know each other on the mound behind the plate.

16:51But we find out that David Fry probably will not be much of a factor at third base or in the outfield during camp that still leaves his flexibility in terms of positional availability at first base as well, but probably not at third or in the outfield. Yeah, I think they still they don't think it's fair to really test Fry's arm from multiple positions. In fact, you know, that's probably how he injured the arm to begin with when he was bouncing around the diamond, playing three, four, five different positions. All those positions required a different kind of throw and that put a lot of strain on the arm. So I think they're really going to be cautious with him. I'm not catching, obviously, you got to make the throw to second base. That's a long throw, but, you know, I think they want to, you know, just keep it as restricted as possible. And then maybe at the end of camp let him play first base, but, you know, vote was, you know, he was he's talked to fry fries told them.

17:54But it's nice to just be able to play catch to make throws and not worry how your elbow is going to feel every time you throw the baseball. You know, having him play at first base. Obviously, there's not as much throwing going on for a first baseman. He's not required to make a lot of long hard throws in a game. I do remember fry making a really nice throw as a first baseman. It was a, what is it? It was a two six, two double bar, two three, two double play that he turned against the Yankees in a game in early 2024. And it was it was a pivotal play in that game. And I just remember boy, you know, the arm really plays at the major league level. For David Fry and then by the end of the year, of course, his arm was in a sling. So not the greatest of situations there. I went to you before you wrap up wanted to mention, you know, or read your, your, your response to a hey, Hoynesy post over the weekend. And the idea of the guardians, what if they let Stephen Kwan walk after playing out the, the end of his club control in, you know, 20, 26, and then the 20, 27 season. And then getting, you know, making a qualifying offer.

19:06And giving him getting draft pick compensation if he signs elsewhere. I thought you raised a good point at the end of your response to that question in that we don't know in 20, 27 or beyond the 20, 26 season. Based on the labor negotiations, whether or not there will be a qualifying offer. How does that play into the guardian strategy here with. Juan and whether or not they're able to resign him or when they look to train him. Yeah, so, you know, I guess that's the unknown factor, Joe, that's the X factor in this whole thing. In the last negotiations on a basic agreement, they tried to, I think the players had the option of adopting a green to a worldwide draft. And if they did that, the owners would do away with the qualifying system. But, you know, that never worked. They did not, they did, you know, there's still no worldwide draft. So who knows? I mean, we don't know what's going to happen after 2020. We don't know how the negotiations are going to go. But, you know, Joe, it would be difficult for me.

20:12I'm the guardian's front office to let Steven, Juan play the next two years and that offer that make him a qualifying offer and let him walk for nothing. Then you get nothing in return. You know, so that's why, you know, if you try to extend them, if you, if that's not, if that's not available to you, then you got to try to trade them or, or at least, you know, make them a qualifying offer when he becomes a free agent. And yes, he may take it. And he may take turn around and take it. We saw, Labor Tora's take a one year, $20 million, qualifying offer this winner with Detroit. And that was a surprise. And the Tigers are now locked into paying in that because they may or may not have expected him to do that. We've seen in the past with the guardians where they, we kind of anticipated them making a qualifying offer to guys like Michael Brantley or, you know, who it was.

21:14Yeah, other guys, those qualifying offers never materialized. And you think that it was because the guardians were afraid the guys were going to take the offer and they would be on the hook for at the time 17 18 million. Exactly, Joe's, you know, it's kind of a cat mouse game. And right now, a big part of the equation is is unknown just because of the basic agreement and what the terms of the new one will be. Yeah, the players association historically, not a huge fan of the qualifying offer system. Like, like you said, they had the chance to get rid of it with the last labor negotiation and that never materialized, but you know that that's always sort of on their minds is getting because they see it as restrictive to free agents because if you're attaching draft pick compensation to, you know, teams that are signing some of these high high level free agents. You know, if you're, if you're the Dodgers, and you're signing show a Tony, you're, you're forfitting a draft pick, you know, and a high draft pick for signing those big ticket free agents. So, you know, that's the case in, you know, with a lot of the players association sees this as sort of, you know, not necessarily a soft cap, but a restriction on free agency that makes it less free, I guess, in a lot of ways.

22:31Just something to keep an eye on and an idea that popped up when in that response that I thought was worth mentioning here on the podcast worth mentioning on the podcast, 20s is going to be in Arizona beginning Monday and all week. So we'll keep an eye on an ear out for your reports from training camp always good to hear from you out there and look forward to it. Beginning with your first, I guess, official podcast out there on Tuesday morning deal, Joe. . Two good and co copy creamers are made with farm fresh cream real milk and contain three grams of sugar per serving. That's 40% less than the 5 grams per serving and leading traditional coffee creamers for a rich, delicious experience whether you enjoy your coffee hot, Cold, bold, or frothy.

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