TGC 589 – Thinking Out Loud (Easter 2)

Welcome to The God Estates Crowd, where we foster confessional integrity, the

surgical preservation, and preaching that doesn't stink. We believe that the

historic liturgy of the divine service is more than mere cobwebs of antiquity,

but it is a true treasure of the church to be dusted off and brought down from

her attic to be enjoyed. So let's get dusted.

Welcome back to The God Estates Crowd. This is Jason Broughton. Today we have

back with us, Dave Peterson. Welcome back, Dave. Thank you. We are looking at the

gospel reading for the second Sunday after Easter. It is or the second Sunday of

Easter, whatever it is. Low Sunday. Yeah. Yeah.

Miseracordia Domini. And it comes from John chapter 20, verses 19 to 31, and I

will read that in the New King James. Then the same day, at evening, being the

first day of the week, when the doors were shut, where the disciples were

assembled for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to

them, peace be with you. When he said this, he showed them his hands on his side.

Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. So Jesus said to them again,

peace to you. As the Father has sent me, I also send you. And when he had said

this, he breathed on them and said to them, received the Holy Spirit. If you

forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them. If you retain the sins of any,

they are retained. Now, Thomas called the twin. One of the twelve was not with

them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said to him, we have seen

the Lord. So he said to them, unless I see in his hands the print of the nails

and put my finger into the print of the nails and put my hand into his side, I

will not believe. And after eight days, his disciples were again inside in Thomas

with them. Jesus came, the door is being shut and stood in the midst and said,

peace to you. Then he said to Thomas, reach your finger here and look at my hands

and reach your hand here and put it into my side. Do not be unbelieving but

believing. And Thomas answered and said to him, my Lord and my God, Jesus said to

him, Thomas, because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have

not seen and yet have believed. And truly, Jesus did many other signs in the

presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are

written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. And that

believing you may have life in his name. All right. Do you care to comment on the

context? No. I think you'd say, well, it's Easter. It's Easter. Now it's Easter

day. And then, of course, the following week. So it's one of the few times in

the liturgy where the passage of time, our experience of time matches what we're

reading. Yeah. And you get that two during Holy Week, don't you? Yeah. And then

a little bit kind of with panic cost being 50 days later. I think those are

ascension. Oh, yeah, an ascension. And maybe a little bit the annunciation, you know,

is nine months before. There are, but mostly, you know, we don't, it's unusual

anyway, a little bit unusual. I always kind of like that during the Easter. Yeah.

Well, Holy Week. And, um, and then throughout Easter that you get those actual

dates, it's actually a two week stretch, exactly, I guess. And from Palm Sunday to this

day is actually, right, that's real time. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I think the key, the

key verse liturgically is, blessed are those who have not seen and have believed. All right.

So this is very much looking over the heads of the apostles to us, right? And, uh, sorry

Thomas, of course, is kind of the foil in this. But, you know, all of them, the other ten also

fail on Easter, not as spectacularly as Thomas, but, you know, they're not believing. They're there

for fear, you know, shutting the doors. I mean, do you think there's, do you think there's

something to, I mean, you mentioned that it's kind of looking over the heads of the disciples

towards us. Do you think there is a sense in, you know, having come off of kind of all of the

services of Holy Week, there's kind of this sense of a letdown, the way that they, like Thomas

may have had a letdown. And so, do you know what I'm saying? I do. I mean, we certainly experienced

that. I'm not sure we would call Thomas, what Thomas is going through a letdown. No, I know,

but it's kind of like, I don't, yeah, I mean, he was disappointed to be sure, right? He had

expected one thing and it was something else, right? And it's like, there is a sense in which you

come back at that Sunday afternoon, like, oh, was that it? Yeah, just back to, yeah, right. And,

I mean, I think, I think it's fair to expect that all 11 of them are something somewhat shocked

by the death of Jesus and unwilling to, unwilling to believe he's risen. And still, I mean, as we're

going to see an ascension, right? Still kind of thinking that maybe he's going to be a military

conqueror. Yeah. At, you know, with some kind of political deliverance. I know, that's so crazy to

be. It is. I mean, I know it does, it does seem so obvious to us. It is obvious to us. It should

be. But, you know, we know, are you going to reestablish the kingdom? Just, just, just in case,

you know, right? It's like a kid asking for a cookie. Well, right? How long has it been?

Yeah, that's right. Is this timeout still going? I know the timer hasn't run, but, you know,

I'm just checking. Yeah. Maybe it's had a malfunction. We just had this experience with our youngest.

We're trying to schedule some kind of lessons for her. And, you know, the lady said, you know,

the earliest I can get you in is April on Fridays at two. And we're like, oh,

we're like, all of our Fridays in April are kind of booked. So let's look till May. And then,

by youngest is like, well, all the Fridays. That's two. Good for her. Yeah.

Good for her to be suspicious of generalizations. Yeah. Yeah.

Overstatements. I like that kid already. Yeah. She's, well, she's a lot like someone else that you know.

In my family. Yeah. I got it. All right. Well, anyway, that's, so that's really the theme idea,

right? They are being criticized, being Thomas in particular, but all of them because, you know,

they believe because they've seen even the other 11, right? When he first comes in or afraid,

and it's only when he speaks to them piece and then shows them his, the marks from his wounds

that they're glad. So that is the main idea. Yeah. Luther divides this text in to Twain.

And I liked that I liked how he did this, though it's a long sermon. But the first half he deals with

basically Sunday evening and with the piece that's bestowed and then really the

institution of the office of the ministry. And then the second half Thomas, which I think makes

total sense, except that I think it's probably in our context would be foolhardy to try to do both

in one Sunday, though he did or at least as Postal did. So I think interestingly in this division,

then, of the first half, there's two halves of the first half and the first half of the, of the first

half has two halves. So the first quarter is has two halves and that's peace and joy. How could

you say it was that? So I feel like we're in like a Saturday night,

blind statue or something, or it could be a seminary classroom talking about chiasms. That would be

the other person. But well, okay. So the first section, right, we have Jesus coming in and the first

thing he says is peace and then the showing of his hands bestows joy upon them. And I think that's

really a good analysis and a kind of recognition that there's this kind of twofold response to fear.

And then Luther has a lot to say about peace that's quite helpful. It's sort of obvious. I mean,

it's not, you know, particularly insightful, but I think it is well said. And it bears repeating

and I think, you know, it's a message for our day. And that is he wants to talk about spiritual

peace as opposed to worldly peace. I don't know if that's another half of this half. But anyway,

the those two things, right, worldly peace being basically the absence of threat or the absence

of lack, maybe. And then, you know, spiritual peace being contentment, really, a confidence that

all is well in the world because Jesus lives. And that is really in some ways, almost synonymous

with joy in the sense that they that they go together. If you have the peace that passes all

understanding, then you have joy, right, if you're content. And I think this, I've been thinking

about this a lot lately in terms of regret, right? I think all of us have so much regrets,

so many regrets. And our lives are just filled with it, right? We, I mean, who doesn't want to go

back into his and live his own life over again and make fewer mistakes? You know, there's so many

things we would avoid and so many things we could have done better. And the older we get, the more

obvious it becomes that we've done some really dumb stuff. And there's some patterns that are

discernible in our stupidity and selfishness, right? And I mean, so when we look back at that,

and I see this, I'm not all the time, but I hear this sometimes in the shut-ins. I certainly

experience it in my own, you know, in my own time musings. But if we really believe in providence,

right? And we really believe that God works all things together for good. That means the things

that we're regretting He has actually used to form us. I'm not excusing them. I'm not saying,

oh, therefore they were fine, right? But there is this reality that God has actually brought us

to this point in our lives very deliberately, purposefully. And I think we have to, we need to learn

to hope in God, right? Look towards the future, right? Why, why, why, how does it go? Right? Why are

you cast down on my soul? Hope in God, Psalm 43. So I think that, you know, some of this kind of regret,

this obsession with this past, this ruminating over things that are gone. We do need to learn

some lessons, you know, discerning those patterns is helpful. We do need to, you know, make amends

and make attempts to do better, to resist sin and so forth. But we also, in Christ, should be

confident that He is working all things together for good. We're not going back in time. That's

a, that's an unbiblical idea or fantasy, even. What we should learn to do is look to what we have

now and what's in front of us and act. And that's really, you know, that is a piece that passes all

understanding. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you're saying, I mean, in a roundabout way, taking us

back to the first Sunday in month is that we don't actually believe that God is our Father and

that we are His children. Right. Right. We're always together as something else, not as Father.

Right. That's right. Well, I think even like when we're thinking about these regrets, oh, I wish

I hadn't done that. There's also something covetous in this that wants to say, why did God let

that happen? Why didn't He intervene? Why didn't He stop it? You know, and I think also a kind of,

you know, dissatisfaction with our own, right? I wish my dad was a little bit better than he actually

was. I wish he would have done a few things that some of my friends' dads did. Or I wish that my

teachers would have, or I wish that, right? I mean, all these kinds of, all of these kinds of things

that really are lack of gratitude and really a kind of self-absorption. And yeah, so I think

you're exactly right. It's a denial of God's goodness, of His providence. And, you know, what's

the difference between that and the fear of the Jews and lock in your door? Right. It's the same

sort of anxiety that is a failure to trust and to believe that Jesus lives. Look, if Jesus lives,

then everything's fine. I mean, better than fine. But, you know, so are so much of this stuff that we

just waste all this mental energy on. And then, of course, act out in, you know, poor ways and then

make excuses. It's a disc, it's coveting. It's a discontentment, a refusal to be satisfied. And

it is unbelief. Yeah. So, all right. Well, I was going to say one other thing. I think part of this

kind of satisfaction. So this was not a phrase when I was in the military. It came about later, but

I like this embrace the suck. Or at least I never heard it tell, you know, there is this kind of

chafing under life's disappointments and sadness. And some of it's completely understandable. I

mean, there are there are terrible things that we suffer in this world, you know, the death of loved

ones, you know, miscarriages, wars in foreign countries, you know, and unnecessary deaths of American

soldiers and, you know, stoop predatory student loans. I mean, on and on, right? There's all these

things that that we are rightly sad about. And that's that's not it or angry about or maybe both.

And yet at the same time, why are we like so shocked by this? And sometimes our sadness and

anger about this become actually our dominant emotion. And there is, I think, a kind of sense that

we need to embrace the suck, you know, and say, well, you know, this is how the cattle stall gets

cleaned out. And, you know, this is what it takes. And this is what we're going to do. And, you know,

kind of complaining because it shouldn't be quite this bad is really kind of childish.

You know, so, and I'm not saying that to be little in any way, the difficulties that people are

enduring, but I do think that there is a confessional response that says, I'm going to confess

of my own unworthiness for things to be better. And I'm also going to confess that God knows what

he's doing, right? And believe, right, to hope in him and to look towards the future, not towards the

past, to trust in his promises. And, and then finally to kind of cultivate an ability to find beauty

and goodness that is still in this world. You know, it's not perfect, but it's still good. And,

you know, if you're mucking out the cattle stall and you got a hole in your boot, you know,

that's pretty unpleasant. And you slip and you fall and now it's on your face and maybe in your

mouth, you know, these are unhappy things, right? And yet, you know, if you can learn to laugh a

little bit, I think that's helpful. And I think also, you know, if you can pause and take a breath

and just say, Jesus lives. Jesus lives, right? This is not some minor point of obscure doctrine.

You know, this is the foundation and the essence of our life in Christ. And then, you know,

look around that cattle stall and maybe there is something beautiful there, you know, or maybe

through the window there is or maybe there's some memory or maybe you can just think about, you know,

the tall glass of milk you're going to enjoy or the, you know, or the beef you're going to eat or

the money this is going to bring, you know, and so forth. Yeah. I mean, it's, it reminds me of

like my favorite Chronicles of Narnia, the horse and his boy. Oh, yeah. When Shasta's running and

they've got a worn kingloon and, you know, rabbit ash is trying to get there. And they finally

gets to the hermit at the southern march. And the hermit says, you know, if they've had this long

journey and they're running from lions, it's like, and now my son waste no time on questions, but

obey. This damsel's wounded, your horses are spent. Rabbit ash is at this moment finding a

Ford over the winding arrow. If you run now without a moment's rest, you will still be in time

to warn kingloon. And at that Shasta's heart faints because he had felt that he had no strength left

and he rived inside at what seemed the cruelty on fairness of the demand. He had not yet learned,

this is my, what I love about it, he had not yet learned, that if you do one good deed, your reward

usually is to be set to do another and harder and better one. Yeah. And like that, like

our expectations are, if we do one, everything else should be easy. Right. It actually gets more

difficult. That's right. That's absolutely, that's absolutely right. Yeah. And I think the other

thing is, you know, we're looking like, like we're willing to delay gratification for a while.

But we're looking for gratification. And in some sense that in that, there is a kind of

brokenness. Right. So yeah, I know that is a, that is a hard, terrible lesson. I remember just

chafing so badly under, you know, being held as a leader, you know, a student leader,

being held responsible for, you know, the people who are my peers who are supposed to be

following me for this training exercise, being held responsible for their disobedience.

And I'm like, hey, you know, I did what I was supposed to do. And that was, I remember just so

frustrating. Took me a long time to sort of catch on. And now I think it's kind of the most

essential thing in a way. And that we actually have to just, you just have to kind of take responsibility

for everything in a sense. I don't mean, you know, for salvation, of course. And I don't mean

that we blame ourselves for things. But what I'm saying is that you just, like you, you have to,

you have to be the man all the time. You never get a coast. Right. Yeah. Well,

it's the difference between fault and responsibility. That's right. Yep. That's right. So yeah,

it's this idea of, you know, and then being learning to be content in that, I mean,

it's such a fabulous thing when Paul says he learned to be content in all things. I mean,

that is a, that would be nice. I would like to, well, I would like to have that knowledge. I'm

not sure if I want to learn it because I think I know, I think I know how the learning comes.

And it's not very pleasant. Yeah. Well, and the, the great part about, I mean, if you're

quoting the second Corinthians passage, um, is that word also means delight. Yeah. Yeah.

He learned to delight in all things and all those things in his weaknesses. And, and I mean,

I, it seems to me that we think of contentment as, uh, like an unfeeling feeling,

like that you have no feelings. Oh, yeah. No, we don't want to say that. No. I'm not saying

you are, but like the same thing about patients, like, like we're just automata and, um, as a merely

passive, like, resignation of, yeah, to things. And it's actually an active delight in what's

right in front of you, isn't it? Right. Right. That's a contentment satisfaction, right? Peace.

I mean, that's toward, I mean, this is, uh, you know, the, this is the peace that's announced

by the angels, right? Um, so you got a nice Christmas, you know, Easter tie with both peace and joy.

The word here is glad, but, uh, I mean, it's translated glad, but it is Kara, isn't it? I was,

I was read when you were, but verse was that it says they were glad, um, after the Cairo,

yeah, they were joy, yeah, they were joy. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, Cairo. Yeah. So, you know, you, you do

have that, that kind of connection and peace isn't just numbness, right? But it's actually this,

I mean, that's again, Luther talks about this, uh, spiritual peace is this satisfaction,

this contentment, this joy, this trust, right? That, that all is well because God is, because Jesus

lives, right? And again, I mean, it's remarkable when you, the whole scene is really, I mean,

the disciples again, you know, are the foils, right? It's crazy. All the, all the resurrection

appearances that have already taken place at this point, you know, I mean, there's a stubbornness

in them, right? John and, and Peter had run to the tomb. The women had been there twice. Mary

Magdalene had the extra little visit with the gardener. They gone, this is after Emmaus. You

know, you, um, you got all of these appearances, right? And, and they're still there,

cowering in fear. At Luther has this great line, he's, but like, he says, and then, of course,

they have peace and they're glad, but their external circumstances have not changed,

right? In other words, I mean, uh, you know, the Jews, they were afraid of because, because they

hate them and want to kill them, still hate them and want to kill them. I mean, the reason they,

they, they locked the door hasn't really changed. It's just that they're no longer afraid. I mean,

all that other stuff is still there. They're not rich. They're not powerful, right? Pilot is still

the governor. Caiaphas is still the high priest. Satan is still the prince of this world.

Is, is there anything in the grammar with, uh, with Cairo there that it's, uh,

eras passive? What, what verse number is it? Uh, I think it's 20, isn't it? First 20? It looks

like it's eras passive. That one that it's passive. Echarison. Yeah. Yes, it is. An eras passive

indicative. Third person plural. So, I mean, it's, I guess my thinking is they are rejoicing

so long as they're seeing the Lord. That passive nature. And, um, and that it's not ongoing,

right? It's something that just happens in the past. So if like, if you're take, if your eyes

are off the hands on the side, the joy dissipates. Yeah, I don't know if we can make that. I mean,

I don't know if it's a dependent maybe, but the, um, the other thing, it's, I mean, eras does mean

a single, a single action or a completed action. However, sometimes there's this kind of completed

action has this sense of, uh, like the difference between I eat and I am eating. Right? So I am

eating as a progressive. That'd be a present in Greek, right? A continuous thing. I eat would be an

eras, you know, um, I ate maybe, but I mean, but in terms of the kind of, there is sometimes

the eras has this definitive sense of, uh, simplicity in a way. Uh, so I'm not, I'm not, uh, express,

I'd have to grab Wallace and look him up, but I'm not sure I would make the grim, I'm not sure

you can make that grammatical argument. How's that? But that they're, that they're, that they're glad

and that they're gladness. I mean, you do, I mean, you do have, I guess the plan is like you,

you've said about, you know, riding a motorcycle. Yeah, we're looking, right? Yeah. Um, or, you know,

going down the ski hill, I'm just wondering if there's a sense in that where it holds so long as

that is the focus. Well, I mean, I think that's fair, theologically for sure, right? But you couldn't

make that from the, I'm not sure you could, but I mean, certainly it's true that, right? I mean,

if they stop having faith, if they stop believing in Jesus, they're going to stop being,

they're going to stop rejoicing and they're going to lose the peace that passes all understanding.

Um, though I, I mean, I don't, yeah, that's, I have never never thought about this before,

which you just kind of brought up, right? This, this word C, you know, most of the time in the,

in the gospels actually means faith, right? Most of the time when this is used, it's talking about

seeing by faith, it's not talking about, you know, I saw the horse walking across the field.

But here, it's a little ambiguous, isn't it? I mean, I, I think I've always taken this

in the more literal sense of, you know, that when they see that it's actually Jesus, the one who

was crucified, and he's now alive, and they've received this peace, you know, that, that they're,

that they're believing. I mean, that they're, that they're glad. I mean, that's a genus,

that's a genitive absolute, isn't it? Yeah, so when they, so in the act of, yeah, and then,

I mean, you do have a, in verse 29, too, those who have not seen, and yet I believe, that seems

to be literal, because you have seen me, you have believed, but blessed are those. So I don't know,

I never thought about trying to take, in verse 20, taking that as the disciples were glad when

they believed the Lord. You probably could, you probably could take it that way. I mean, it wouldn't

be false, but, all right, so there's, there's, there's peace and joy anyway. That's an interesting,

I don't know, you could do a whole sermon on that probably. Then you've got the office of the

keys, right? So Jesus breathes on them and says, receive the Holy Spirit. While there's whole sermon

is on confession and absolution, but I did not love it. It's, it's in this, this relatively

new gospel sermon's volume one, Walter's works from CPH, came out about maybe 10 years ago.

And so he's got this sermon and he really, he really equates the absolution with the gospel itself

and he counts any proclamation of the gospel or any really kind of witness of Jesus' love

from one, from a Christian as the, as what, what Jesus is talking about here. So he says some

nice things in here, starting out with anybody who doesn't believe that the ministers can absolve

sins is a sectarian and is terrible person. And then he says there's, there's kind of three

errors that they've committed. And it is funny because, I mean, it's a, it's a very

polemical sermon against the Methodists, right? Even if it doesn't name them as the Methodists

and, and you can tell he's, he's mad about this and he's concerned that his people are being

influenced by this and believing it. So the first thing he says, first section is,

their problem is they do not submit to Holy Scripture because they got the clear words of Jesus

here and they just flat out deny them. And frankly, that's probably his best section. And then the

second section is the complete atonement of Christ is denied if you deny this. And, and really the

argument there is that if you don't believe that somebody can forgive sins as Jesus says he can,

then you don't really believe that sins are forgivable, right? You don't believe that Jesus is

done everything because the absolution is really just telling you what Jesus has done. So the only

way you can deny it is if you don't think he's, he's done that. I mean, it's a, I'm not sure

that's quite what they're saying, but that's what he says. And then the third one is he says,

men are robbed if, if you teach that no one can forgive sins. Men are robbed of the greatest and

most necessary comfort. And here he says that if, if you won't allow that Christians can pronounce

forgiveness as God himself, any Christian can do this. If you, if you deny that, then it's only

going to be because you're actually corrupting the gospel by throwing people back into their works

somehow. So it's kind of like this. Is he arguing at the Methodist or is he arguing against the

Buffalo Synod? I think he's arguing against the Methodists, but it could be used against the

Buffalo Synod I would think because he really, again, like he just sees the absolution in this

as just being anytime somebody, one Christian, anytime a Christian says, you know, Jesus died for

the sins of the world to another human being. That's the absolution. So he does not really get

into the office of the ministry. He does, you know, kind of mention it sideways a few times, but he

he certainly doesn't see this as a distinct function of the office of the ministry. And of course,

you know, but not the Methodist wouldn't either. I know, I know. That's one of the wondering if it's

against grab out. No, well, unless it's, unless it's against grab out kind of secretly, which

could be, I guess, but I mean, what he says explicitly is, you know, those who deny the absolution

and say that no man can forgive sins, they're the worst people. So he doesn't say, you know, people

that think that the pastors have a special authority conveyed directly by God to do things that no

other Christian can do. I mean, that's not his complaint. Okay. Got you. I think, you know, I don't

know. It's, you know, he doesn't say anything in here that I think is false. I'm not, I'm not going

that far at all. But overall, I just didn't like it. And I just don't think it, I think it's

confusing. And he talks about the office of the keys and the power of the keys being given to

the church. But then it seems throughout this that he really does see every Christian exercising

this. And he sees no kind of distinction between, you know, a husband forgiving his wife or a child

for giving his mother from, you know, private absolution or the general absolution in the church.

And I guess I would like to see a difference. I think there is a difference because one is done

publicly on behalf of the church, right? According to this institution. And the other one is the

exercise of faith. And so anyway, that was Walter. I didn't, you know, I love Walter. I didn't,

I didn't. Again, I don't, I don't think I didn't, I'm not accusing him of heresy, but I didn't like

the sermon. So there you go. Yeah. Anyway, but you could write a sermon, maybe better than Walter

on this passage on the office of the keys. Luther does talk about the office of the keys in his

long sermon in the second half of the second part. In the second half of the first half, he goes

into the into the office of the ministry. So there's that. So there's really two sermons in Luther's,

there's first part. I'd say there's, I'd say that, well, no, I'd say there's two sermons in his

first half, one on one on peace and joy on the second one on the office of the keys. Okay. And

then there's the third sermon, which would be the second half. Right. Yeah. That's what I mean.

That's what I was saying. Oh, okay. Yeah. The two sermons in the first half. Yeah. Yeah. One more

in the second half. Yeah. That's right. That's how I would that's how I would consider it. And I

would think any one of those three would work. I think all three is too much. Does he tie them

together at all? You know, no, I think, you know, what he would say, what, you know, like Reinhold

people would say is it's it's an analytical sermon. So, you know, he's just going in the same order

as the actual reading and he's explicated the whole thing. So I mean, what ties it together is

the gospel reading. And I mean, he doesn't even see the text itself. Yeah. Yeah. The text itself.

And but I mean, you know, the the text itself has at least, I mean, there is eight days between

right there. There is a week between these things, but they're tied together, I guess, because

Thomas is conspicuously missing at the first and then shows up at the second.

I was going to say, what else about this? Does he say anything interesting about Thomas that

you were like, I didn't think about that. No. All right. It went over me too fast. I did like,

oh, there was this other. So in the second half of the first half, he does, he does subdivide

into the two kingdoms, you know, so the really kind of the kingdom of God's right hand,

which would be the absolution, which he's bestowing here at the office of the ministry,

and how rule is conducted in the church, and then the kingdom of the left hand, which is sort of

the kingdom of the world and those distinctions. And then within within the first half of the set,

what is he? Whatever, in that under the kingdom of the right hand, so, you know, God's the church,

he also then distinguishes that into two parts of law and gospel.

I'm not making this up. So he does like to do that. He does like to divide things and number things.

And I mean, I think again, those are pretty legitimate kind of numberings. I did, it was funny to

me when I, so when I see this passage, right, receive the Holy Spirit, if you've given anyone a

sense, I mean, I just boom, that's the office of the keys. I don't think of that often as being

how the church is ruled on earth, how the church militant is ruled on earth. And that's, that is

what Luther says. And he's right about that. And so I think, you know, that was pretty interesting to

me. And I mean, I've heard it before. I don't know. I've never associated it with this passage.

But, you know, what he says basically is, look, this is what the apostles work is to be. This is the

kind of thing there to be the apostles and their successors, he says. This is how the church is

ruled what it cares about and is concerned with. It's not writing new laws. You know, it's still

the Ten Commandments. He's got a nice anti-nomean thing in there because he believes in the ministry

of the law within the church. But the ministry of the law is concerned with sin. And so is the

ministry of the gospel, right? So it's all about, right? If you forgive anyone, his sins, the sins are

forgiven. If you do not forgive the sins, the sins are not, right? They're retained. So, so that's

where he gets the kind of law gospel thing and then says, and I think he's right, that this is

what the church is concerned with and defined by. Sounds kind of funny to say by sin, but I mean,

if you want to say it more nicely, you could say with the forgiveness of sins.

Okay. Yeah. And then Thomas. So, yeah, I don't know. The Thomas stuff was fine. Maybe I was tired

when I read it. He does have this, I did underline this summary. And then maybe this,

maybe this is, maybe this is tying it together. Oh, wait, no, that was in the, I'm in the wrong

spot. Where's the summary? Here we go. Yeah. In terms of Thomas, he says, finally, as far as

putting his finger into the wounds is concerned, I will not contest whether Christ after his resurrection

retained the wounds and nail marks, except that they were not hideous as they would be otherwise,

but beautiful and comforting. But whether they were still fresh, open and red, as artists paint

them, I will let others decide. Otherwise, what they represent for the common man is very fine,

so that he can have a memorial into picture, which reminds and admonish him about the suffering

and wounds of Christ. It can certainly be that he retained the same signs or marks, which will

perhaps shine much more beautifully and gloriously on the last day than his whole body. And he will

show them to all the world as Scripture says. They will look on him whom they have pierced. However,

I will commend this to everyone's devotion to ponder over. So I thought that was, I was kind of

surprised by that, that last line actually, because it seems like usually when Luther starts that

way, when he's like, look, you know, we got people saying this and people saying that, an artist

drawing picture and terrible legends, and nobody really knows, and so he shouldn't care about it,

and then he'll say, but if you do, you're stupid, right? That's kind of the way Luther does it,

usually. And here, I think he's much more, sort of, since he's much more friendly towards these

images and these ideas. And I think that he actually is commending us to think about these things.

Seriously, he's not saying, if you're worried about this, if you're thinking about this,

you're speculating, and it's bad, which is usually the way it goes. So here he says, I commend this

to everyone's devotion to ponder over. And I like this, I liked this citation from Zechariah,

that I'd never, I mean, when I hear that, they will look upon him whom they have pierced.

I'm always thinking, I've always thought of the crucifixion itself.

This is like, during the crucifixion, they're going to look at him. Oh yeah, that's the one we pierced.

But I think Luther is totally right, that it's not actually about that. They're not even probably

looking at him then, right? I mean, they don't look, if they're looking at him, they're not seeing him,

and they don't believe in him. But the disciples are looking at him whom they pierced

and believing in him and loving it. And so here's one of the Gospels quote that.

Yeah, John 19, but that's in the crucifixion account.

Right, I know. So I mean, well, why I would think it's in the crucifixion account?

Yeah, I mean, that makes sense because that's true or no, it's in the Bible.

True. Okay. I guess, I guess I guess I could defend myself on that.

But I like this idea of the the Psalm maybe being fulfilled or the Zachariah being really

fulfilled by faith that looks upon him as the pierced one. So I really, in both days, the Sunday

when Thomas isn't there, and then when he comes back and Thomas is there, both times,

he draws attention to these marks, right? And this is so key, I always make a big stink about

this with the children, right? That the whole point of Jesus' lives is that he was dead.

It doesn't matter. I mean, if Jesus' lives means he didn't die, then we're still in trouble,

right? The whole point is he has gone through death and he has defeated and he is the victor.

And though he is the lamb without blemish, he has these scars, right? And these scars, of course,

are the office or the mark of his office and, you know, the badge of honor. And, you know,

we want to look on the one who is pierced. It's no good that he lives if he wasn't pierced,

if he didn't die, right? Yeah. We need him to have paid the price and to have actually died.

So we don't want to look on the risen Lord unless he's the pierced Lord.

Yeah. I suppose John's quoting of it could be not in reference backward, but forward in the narrative.

Let me see if we can find it. It's a verse 37 of 1937. Okay. Yeah. And another scripture said,

they will shall look at him on the pierced. And he's saying, and he who has seen

has testified and has testified true. That's true. That he is telling the truth so that you may

believe for these things were done that the scripture should be fulfilled. Not one of his bones shall

be broken. And again, another scripture says, they shall look on him whom they pierced so that

he, supposedly, the Holy Spirit and John could have in mind the disciples in the upper room will

see shall see the one whom they pierced. Well, you know, it seems like so in I've thought this before,

I've never really looked into it, but this pierced language I always read as the nails.

But you know, in the context of John, when you read it on Good Friday, it sounds like it's about

the spear. Yeah. It's the spear. So even on isn't that the way it is in the resurrection

account? His pierced side, yeah, it does seem like that's the language. Let's see, is it right here

and what we just read in John? Raise on them. Thomas, reach your finger here, reach your hand.

Oh, just end to my side. It doesn't say anything about being pierced. Yeah, I don't know. But I wonder,

you know, if it's the, if it's just the piercing in the side, that's so that's so rich, you know,

because then you're you're looking at the at the place of water and blood. In fact,

isn't that the epistle for this day from first John? Yeah, I think so. Oh, there's a connection

because you got the water and the blood stuff in first John. And then here you've got

what you don't have pierced. That was Luther. But you could you could you could break up, you know,

put your hand into the side and then yeah, I don't know. Yeah, there's something there,

but I probably can't figure it out in this minute. Yeah. Anyway, I liked that from Luther and I liked

that application of the of the passage. So, so what do you typically focus on? Do you typically

focus on the keys? No, I think I've almost, I don't even, if I've ever focused on the keys, I

must have, but I I'm sure most of the time I have focused on Thomas. I mean, I love the narrative

stuff, you know, it's hard for me to resist that. And you know, the office of the keys is a doctrinal

topic. I don't really like to preach I don't enjoy preaching on doctrinal topics as much.

I think we have to I think we need to do it. I probably should do more of it. I just preached

recently on a on the salutation. So that was like a doctrinal liturgical topic. It was kind of

tedious, but I think it was good. And all of your parishioners are nodding their heads. No, I think

they I felt I think they liked it. I think it was pretty well received. To me, it was kind of

boring because you know, I mean, I've been through this. But I think, you know, when you teach

people an insight into the liturgy, they really enjoy that. And it stays with them a lot a lot

longer in a way. Well, so what was this for when? This was for the annunciation because, you know,

the Lord be with you. That's Gabriel. And then, you know, I make this big thing about it's not

a greeting, you know, salutations. So I, you know, I hate this misnaming of the salutation. It

should be the Dominus Vobiskum. That's the Latin, you know, it doesn't say salute. And so, you

know, it's, it's really supposed to be this profound moment in the liturgy of promise that,

you know, the Holy Spirit is about to overshadow you and enter into you by the year,

year like you did to Mary. And he's going to do it when we read the gospel. He's going to do it

at the consecration. He's going to do it at the benediction. You know, that kind of thing.

So, to me, it was kind of tedious, but I think, you know, it was a good catechetical kind of thing.

And so that's what I mean. But maybe it was tedious to them too. Maybe it was even more tedious to

them. I don't know. So are you going to do the piece then? I'm kind of tied. I like that piece.

Yeah. Well, baby, oh, there you, there's a great idea. Yeah. Get into the boxed harmony.

Why do we do this at this point in the liturgy? Tie it to tie it very much. I mean, it's perfectly tied

to this to this evening. And, you know, and then the next week. And then, of course, it's also

tied to Christmas. And it's, and it's tied to the right, the piece that passes all understanding.

No, that's a great. That's a great. I mean, you could be like, you know, even though Thomas

wasn't there, right? He's still welcome back in peace. Yeah. Yeah. With that boxed harmony.

Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. That's a great idea. Well, and like, you know, I think again,

you know, those sorts of things are really useful for people because, you know, they're hearing it

every week and it stays with them along. When you get an insight like that, a liturgical insight,

that's pretty valuable. Has anyone in Godestines ever gone through the one-year series

and found the places where a part of the liturgy could be preached on?

That's a good, that'd be a good, it'd be a nice exercise. I don't think anybody's ever done. I

mean, Bo Geertz brings up a few things in his book. That'd be a good place to start. You could,

you could start with Bo Geertz. You know what I'm talking about? What's that called? The Fire of

the Lord? Something like that. I don't know. Bo Geertz has a book where he takes the historic

lecture and he gives doctrinal topics out of the text for every Sunday. And it's really kind of

fun to look through. And I haven't looked at it in a long time. Maybe we should start looking at it

on here. So he's, you know, to kind of get through the whole council of God, but with liturgical

preaching. So Geertz, I think, is kind of responding to saying, look, you don't need a sermon series

on the Ten Commandments. You know, you should preach on the Ten Commandments, but you should

preach on them on these Sundays when they come up. Or you could preach on them. So, you know,

that kind of systematic treatment of things is pretty useful. Let's do that. Let's start looking

at that. I'll try to remember. He sometimes brings up liturgical stuff. You know, I mean, it's pretty

obvious, you know, the glory and excellency, son Christmas Eve, you know, the Nukhdominus on

whatever day that is, um, once in a time, not the, not the, is that the visitation? No, no,

it's the presentation presentation. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. So, but, you know, that's

good. But what else? Where are I mean, I suppose? Well, I'm just saying those are the obvious ones,

but they're, I think you're right. There's more. And we could find them if we looked and it'd be

worth it. Yeah, it would be. All right. Let's try it. Let's try it on here. We can start with,

we can use gearts as a, as a guy spirit animal. That's our charizard. Um, okay. So, so what do you

think you're going to do? You think you're going to do the, I like the box. I think the box

top it is a great idea. If I don't forget by the time this comes up, that's what I'll do.

Okay. Good, good. Uh, any final thoughts? No. Surprise, surprise. All right. Well, thanks for

your time, Dave. Thank you, Jason. God bless.