Testing Our Patience | Joy Eggerichs Reed & Emerson Eggerichs

0:00Hey friends, welcome to the Rhythms for Life Podcast where each week we talk about resilient rhythms that help you take charge of your mental, spiritual, physical and relational help. This season's conversations come from our best-selling book, The Fight For Us. Overcome what divides to build a marriage that thrives. So grab your copy, invite your friends, and let's build healthy relationships together. Welcome back, Rebecca. And I'm Gabe. And we are so grateful to be back on the podcast. It has been a minute. I know it has. Thank you guys for just coming back around for the new season. We've had a summer that's been awesome. We took a nice little break and we are so excited about the many guests and the conversations that are about to unfold. Yeah, so this summer was just a pause for us and I think we were all excited and expectant for it because we had a wedding a year ago with our son Pierce and then a wedding this past summer. And in kind of our pause in August with Kennedy.

1:01And so it just feels like a very full season of family that we wanted to be present for and just have a little margin to really just, these are the moments you don't get back. These are the benchmark seasons and milestone moments that you just really want to make sure you're fully present in and this summer allowed us to do that with more intentionality and we're so grateful. Yeah, we did a few things this summer that will spend probably more time and future episodes as we go throughout the season just unpacking moments from it. But I know for me one of the most profound experiences was in June taking time to do a silent retreat at a monastery. And that was like, wow, I don't think I've been that quiet my whole life. By those five days where you're at a monastery, no one talks, three meals a day, you sit next to people, you don't know their names, they don't know your name, participate in prayers throughout the day, seven different times. But for me, it was just, I got incredible time with God, time to just be alone and solitude with God and it was so refreshing to my spirit.

2:04And I know for you and me this fall, this whole season, we really want to take people, want a bit of a journey of conversations around, was it mean for us to get that soul rest in the rhythm because without it, we really don't have anything to offer in our marriage and our family life to our work. Yeah, maybe you're entering or maybe you resonate with this. You know, when you run hard and fast for a long time and your, your, your output exceeds your input, then you kind of lose those reserves and it's easy to grow weary and well doing. And we're told in scripture, like, you know, you'll reap a harvest if you don't faint. But part of what keeps you from fainting in the working, right, is like taking Sabbath seriously. And then in getting back, I think this summer for me was so much of a, I want to be deeply formed by God. And I have to get away to do that. I can't always be producing and, and like doing the everyday work of output. If I, if I don't have reserves that are being deeply formed by God.

3:06And so for you, that monastery was, was that I, I remember you coming back and me going, like, what was the fruit of that? I mean, five full days of not talking. The only time you could talk was if you went for walks at, at Golden Hour at sunset. I would leave her back a little messages so she kind of knew what was going on. Yeah, like, are there all live? Where are you? But yeah, it was, it was really, really sweet because I found the Lord meeting me in a way that never happens in the midst of the busyness. And it just made me want that for you for everybody we know, you know, to, to do that. And it's just getting harder, I think, in the world to break away, find the silence, find the quiet. And yet for all of us, and you write this in the rhythms of renewal, you know, the rest rhythm is the most important because if we don't have that built in, we don't have the reserves. Right. And we do burn ourselves out. Yeah. And so I think I'm, I relearned rest rhythm this summer. Yeah. And I think we're in a season in the culture as the church where people are getting a

4:09bit weary. It feels like people are getting more exhausted. And the only way back is refuge, you know, and really coming into that space with God and, and learning how to walk it out daily with him. And, and we talked about this and we'll get into more as the season goes. And we'll just share little nuggets here and there. But one thing I do remember profoundly when you returned is that you really felt God's love, like in an unconditional way, like a child and Gabe and I both did freedom prayers, you know, kicking off like this season, it just kind of worked out. And if you listened last season to Jen Barnett being on the freedom prayer, like, after that conversation, we both felt convicted like we, we have some areas we want to just get before the Lord and just flesh some things out. And when I started my freedom prayer, like a couple weeks after that, I just remember kept, I kept hearing become like a child. And like as a woman who's well, now into her 50s, it's like, what does that mean?

5:09But it's like where a child is not embarrassed to approach their, their parent, they're not feeling like they have to like earn or navigate the, the permission to sit on their lap to receive. They just ask and they ask in a way that feels free and Jesus is so clear in his words when he says in the Beatitudes, unless you become like a child, you will not enter the kingdom of God. And so it's a sobering thought of like, what does it mean to be childlike? What is it to be, to be delighted in and to light in God? And so being loved by him first, then makes us go, oh, we can slow down. We don't have to do all this stuff. We don't have to say yes to every invitation. We can delight in just being with God instead of doing for God. And from the witness, then comes the overflow of just serving and walking with them. And a freedom prayer was amazing. And a good example to you guys is listeners that we don't just interview these people and not take it in. We took it in that day. We need to do this.

6:10We need this. This is amazing. And I don't make time to do that. And so it felt awkward at first. It's like a two hour process. You can learn all about it by going back to last season and listening to that episode. But it was profound. And we would encourage everybody to do it. One thing you're going to hear us talk about as we move through the fall is inviting you to join us in Franklin, November 19 and 20. So only retreat we're back and I are doing this year because we decided to kind of slow some things down. And it's called the emotional health retreat. Some of you've been to that before, but many of you haven't. And I got to tell you as much as we're back and I over the last year have helped people think about their marriages. If you're a married couple, even though this isn't called a marriage retreat, this is the kind of retreat you would love because it helps you work through your emotional health in your relationship. And that's the thing when we counsel couples all the time. That's what's coming up. Everything they want to talk about with marriage is emotional health. But for those of you who are not married, this is the kind of retreat that's designed to bring some of the best voices. We have Lori Loke joining us who's been your personal counselor and trauma specialist.

7:12We have Dr. Thompson joining us virtually to be a part of a session just processing through the neuroscience of how the brain works around emotions, but a deep dive for two days in Franklin. Yes. And as if you've come before, you know it's amazing. If you've heard about it and you've wanted to come, this is your moment to come. We have a discount code and we gave a share of that. We just setting the time apart to get away together with your spouse with a friend, a close friend and just giving the time and attention to being fully present in this. I think there's going to be a lot of reward that the Lord has for you in that diligence of finding that health. And you can read all about it at RebeccaLines.com slash EH, retreat for emotional health, EH retreat and use code RFL 200 to get $200 off your registration. And we'll look forward to being with you there. Well, today's guest, we had with us two guests. And we're in Agritchu. Many of you have heard before on our podcast, one of our favorites, but we had his daughter. Also, Joy Egrich Reed, who is married and she came all the way from Paris to be in studio,

8:17which is super fun, but they co-wrote a book that is such a delight. And I promise you, it is for parents, it is for adults and everybody. Because the topic is on communication and of course, we know most conflicts come out of poor communication. Somebody says something in a certain tone or a certain way and we hear it through our wounding and all of a sudden you're often running in the crazy cycle, as Emerson says. But this book is called Beagah gets a do over and I just love the phrase do over, like with Gabe and I, hey, can I get a do over or with a child like, hey, let's try that one again. It is just so playful and fun and but this conversation we wound up having them was just wonderful because there's just principles here about how to honor one another well with our words that the sooner that this can get in our children's lives and they can hear these things, not out of condemnation but always invitation. I think you're going to be really delighted in hearing this conversation.

9:18That is fun. Let's listen to them now. Welcome to another episode of Rhythms for Life Podcasts. I'm Gabe Lyons with Rebecca Lyons and today we are joined by good dear friends of ours, Joy Egrich Reed and Emerson Egrich. Emerson's been with us multiple times on this podcast talking about marriage. You've heard a lot about Emerson from us. But it's fun to have two generations of Egriches joining us for a fun conversation today. So if you're a parent, a grandparent, you're somebody who loves children, they have really helped us think about how do we communicate some of these deep, virtuous principles to our children in a way that's fun but also has a stickiness to it that they'll remember. I think that's crucial. Yeah. Emerson's really good with sticky statements. Always has been. We went to counseling with him for years and I would always just remember like the ocean of emotion or different things that he would say to us and the best, you know, and the

10:23best. And I think levity is really helpful when you're trying to correct, you know, or change or modify the behavior, not just in marriages but also in parenting. And so we're really excited about this book project that you guys have written together. Is this your first time writing a book together? Yes. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure I've given a lot of contents for each team. Oh, yeah, that's it. Yeah. I've given a lot of stories. I've given a lot of stories. And what was that process like for you guys? Well, I just stole his intellectual property from childhood stories that he told me and then we kind of turned it into this, you know, book on communication but set in the land of Nuff, which is fun backwards, which is a story he told me when I was a little kid in the 1980s before I'd go to bed. So I never knew Nuff was fun backwards. I thought it was like a, like a abbreviation for Nuff, like you're Nuff. I don't know. But it makes a lot more sense. Land of Nuff, exactly. Land of fun. Let's go the little background here. You guys grew up in what part of the country, like give us a little background on just the

11:25two of you and what life was like. Growing up with Emerson and your father. Yes. Yes. We grew up in, or I grew up in Eastlancy, Michigan where he was a senior pastor. I thought I owned the church. We lived in the parsnage. Yeah. And so, yeah. Did you get in trouble for like jumping on the pews? I mean, was anything that was coming? No, I didn't. Because you seem like a little mischievous. Fun. You could get away with it. I didn't get in trouble from them, but I did get kicked out of Pioneer Girls. Do you know? Oh, it's like the Christian. Was that the Oana? Was that connected to a wand at all? No. No. But it was similar. It was like Girl Scouts. Yeah, Christian Girl Scouts. And how did you get kicked out? Yeah. We were upstairs and we could hear downstairs in the subchappal all the boys and boys brigade having a lot of fun. They played games. Brigade. We sewed. And so I told the leader, I was like, you know, I really think we should do things that are a little bit more fun like boys brigade. And apparently I kept complaining so much that she finally called my mother and was like, I think it would be easier if, Joy, she doesn't want to be here.

12:25She doesn't want to sew. She doesn't want to sew. She does not into sewing. That's amazing. I learned to sew at 10, too. And my mom had sewed all of our stuff and then I got a new. What was the name of your group? Was it like a group? She and mom like led some group of young girls. Oh, girls, girls. Oh, girls, girls. But that's so good. But that was when she taught public school. And she would do this after school thing and they learned to sew. So but this was pre-purls girls. I think it was like the original Pearl girl at 10 years old. But yeah, I mean, it takes a lot of discipline to stick with sewing. And you just picked it back up, right? Yeah. Well, just mending or like very small projects at home. Yeah, little little bunk room redo. It's easier and cheaper, but you have to have the time and that time that we don't have that as much. But yeah. And then what was the most important thing for you? What was it like being Joyce father? Because you have multiple children. So what was unique though about this when we had Jonathan who was the oldest and David and then Joy and it was like two years between the boys and then three between David and

13:26Joy. No, I was as you look back, one of the things that we did, we tried to in the evening putting in the bed, you know, kids respond to story. They respond to narratives. I mean, Jesus spoke in parable, 66 parables. I mean, what is that all about? It's because it activates right brain, left brain. You can't not listen once upon a time. There was. Everybody's going to tune into that unless they know where you're going to that. So narrative story I knew was important, but then of course, you want to teach a moral principle. And as a pastor, as a teacher, you know, I was always trying to think, how could I insert something here that might be helpful based on what I observed in the day? So that was really kind of the thinking behind that. I also had another story called Billy, the Silbert Assortissement. That's a whole other series and a whole different topic. Yeah, exactly. Scottish all of a sudden. The Seven Seas. But anyway, that was the the birthing of this and then Joy has just put this on steroids.

14:26She has pulled back and done a creative work here that's borderline genius. Yeah. How did you get this idea? Did you always think you might do something like this or did it just come to you? No, actually, we were, so I'm his literary agent. We were kind of brainstorming a couple years ago his next projects and my mom came up and she said, you know, you really should do a children's book together on the land of enough because it was such an important story. So we added tiny, but the original characters were Biga and Duga. And again, I've learned so much about this story. Not only did I realize that enough was fun and spell backwards, but that Biga and Duga were him trying to kind of highlight being and doing and incorporating these really, you know, profound principles into what for me as a kid was just really fun and silly. And so while I only have these recollections of like it was fun, it made me laugh. It made me think about swimming in a pool full of marshmallows. I didn't realize what seeds were being planted. That probably were lessons that finally clicked when I was in my 20s. And so we decided to infuse this, these communication principles that he wrote about in another book

15:27called Speak Your Mind that I finally got when I was in my 20s. So I was in college and he, I don't know what the situation was, but he told me he goes, you know, something that helped transform the way that I communicate is asking myself before I say something or write an email or something. Is this true? Is this kind? Is this necessary? Is this clear? And once I had those four things memorized, it helped me so much with my communication and I get myself into trouble, but less so than if I didn't do that before. And even the sequence of how you do it. I don't know if you mean to do it in that order, but like starting with truth and kindness and then necessary and clear. Where did you get those four words? Like was it over time? Did it just come one day? Well, originally a wheat japlow was one of those illuminated moments. I said in chat, well, I don't remember who this speaker was. It said you need to ask three questions. Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? And some have a tribute to that to Socrates, but I've asked experts, people don't know. There's a poem that was written in the 1800s, but that has kind of been a common thing.

16:29Is it true? Is it kind as necessary? It wasn't new to me, but I realized I would try to say what was true, you know, kind of necessary. And people said, what are you trying to say to me? Yeah, what's up with you? I struggled with clear, being clear. You know, I knew what I meant, but I couldn't say it. And I remember Professor Sainte, if you can't say it, you don't know what you mean. And so I added the fourth because that was very important. And then since then we've done deep research. Dr. Brown at a university did a national study on these four concepts that we asked him to do, and they're all distinct. They don't bleed into each other. So it's like four legs on a table. True, kind, necessary, and clear. And then of course, that's all rooted in Scripture. Speak the truth and love. We talk about kindness being loving and respectful. That's how the work and definition is. But those people go at that all the time. Is it true? And is it spoken and loved? People kind of know that. And we also know Ecclesiastes. There's a time to speak and time not to speak. We all kind of know that. It's interesting how there are certain Scriptures that just resonate within the community. Clarity is a little bit different. But of all the things Paul asked people to pray for, very few things that Paul ever

17:30personally invite prayer for. But one of the key prayers, pray that I could make it, that I could speak as clearly as I suppose to speak. He was concerned about his clear speech, the apostle Paul. So when you put it all together and they're all distinct, it really does serve as a guideline. And we have both sides of this. Sometimes we must not speak. Because it's not true. It's not kind. It's not necessary. It's not clear. But there are, most people are a little bit more flagmatic and laid back. We want to give them the courage if it's true. If you can say this in a kind way, if it's necessary and it's clear, you need to speak up. And that doesn't necessarily mean people are going to listen to you. They may not be teachable, but you've done your part and don't regret that. Yeah, so good. And children tend to speak up. I mean, a little more than adults these days. I feel like adults are, yes, a little more cautious. They don't want to say the wrong thing. We're kind of living in a cultural moment where people, you know, online will speak their mind, but in person. Right. And a little less willing to go there because there's some risk of social ostracization

18:31or there's some risk of getting canceled by something, some opinion they have that doesn't fall in favor with everybody. But for children, it feels like, you know, we're back in our last night. We're watching children's movies of our kids growing up. I had all the home videos from the camp quarter and watching little Pearson Kennedy and Kate at like these ages of two and four and five. The way they communicated like just own the world. I mean, they weren't. They weren't insecure. They weren't worried about what people thought. So by applying those ideas to a child, what are you trying to do there? Because it feels like they don't mind just saying whatever's on their mind. Are you trying to teach them a bit of virtue around how to have some disciplines with what's coming up next and question? And I think we all know children are going to speak their mind because they're not trying to be mean. They're just, they're just, they're truth tellers. And that's a beautiful thing. There is a, there is a virtue in that and we need to learn from children. Jesus tells us there's something about children. They're teachable, they're trainable, they're transparent, they're truthful. There is an innocence there that we need to applaud even though now we realize, you know

19:34what? I think you overstated that. And that's partly why we've written this book because Biga in this book has a big mouth and he's got a good heart. He's not a bully, but he is speaking his mind and he hurts the feelings of tiny. And to your point, how do we coach a child and any child to speak wisely rather than imprudently? Well, that's why tiny is the little sister. Yes, we need to note that. She's new character that we added. I love that. Tiny wasn't involved in the 80s, but of course you made sure that was a tiny. That's a happy life. She was tiny. But one of the things I think we tried to incorporate words that were a little bit bigger than normal vocabulary for kids. So the word necessary. Yeah. I feel like books are such a great way for parents to teach kids new vocabulary. And so I think a lot of kids hear the words truth and kindness, but you know, my kids, they, you know, we live in Paris. So it's like they see people that look all different ways and they will say loudly, oh, that person, you know, looks this way or why is that person like that?

20:35And so I think the word necessary is actually kind of synonymous with wisdom. Yeah. It's like, okay, well, let's remember it and be able to do over the word necessary. Let's talk about what that means. So you, you are speaking truth about what you're seeing right there. But let me tell you why that may or may not be necessary to say. And so we're hoping that this book and these principles that sometimes my parents, might feel, you know, some parents might go, well, these are terms that might be a little bit above my five or six year old. Actually, it's, it's pretty amazing how kids can learn these concepts, especially when it's taught through like characters that they feel so connected with. No, my favorite part is where you say, you don't always use words with tact. And then there's a little like note in the corner that says, ask the person reading to you to define tact and attack. To tactfully define tact. And I love that as a like a word vocabulary junkie. I was like, yes, thank you. Thank you for elevating our vocabulary again. And there are no emojis in the book, by the way. We've been working on necessary with our little joy.

21:37Just turned 13, but with Down syndrome, she kind of, she sees things and just says what she sees. And so lately what that meant was we were at a birthday party of the day with a bunch of other moms and children. And her sister in law, Karlin is pregnant. And so, you know, her belly is showing it. So she knows like she loves that there's a baby in her belly. And like we talked about that all the time. So we're at the birthday party. And two different occasions a woman walks up, you know, to the table to get something to eat. And she's sitting there and the woman just appeared, maybe to have a baby bump. But not just like points. And she's like, baby right to the belly while I'm sitting there. And I'm having to kind of defend like, yeah. And then did it like five minutes later. She thinks everybody's pregnant right now. But yeah, she's just discovered. I know. Women have babies in their belly. She's talking to some pregnant after a good meal. But now she's, we were like, talked to her about it. And now she just says it to Karlin. So we were able to go to Karlin, baby. But I mean, that illustrates the preciousness and the innocence. And now, if some of the boys have to remind ourselves as we're coaching, as we're teaching,

22:42you know, because these things continue to come at us, right? I mean, and it's just an ongoing process. And you especially are experts at this in one sense because you've been a model of so many people on the special needs and the range of issues that you've had to address. And every day, every hour, right? I mean, it has been a relentless thing. And I think that's rooted in your topic on resilience. And so there is a challenge for all of us, but we appreciate your example on this excellent parenting. And it's just a process. And maybe you could speak into that. Because in some ways, you can't just say to your children, okay, here it is. We speak with us true, kind, necessary, and clear. Are we good to go for the next 10 years? Right. Right. It's an ongoing thing. And I reading this book, I'm like, this is as much for parents as it is for kids. And I'm sure you already know that. But I was like, do I say things that are clear to our kids at all times? Or do I say them leading with kindness and or truth and kindness? I do say things that are true, but kind of sometimes the irritation could probably like

23:43leak into that a little bit or frustration or even the necessary. Like just how to do that in a way that edifies versus kind of tears down. And the clear part, I think is so important because clear means I have ownership of this content in a way that I can distill it in a way that it will resonate with you. It's like I'm most the teaching of communication. Like I'm being thoughtful about how you would need to receive this. And so I have ownership enough to know how to address that. So that would resonate with your heart. So to me, that takes a little extra like it does, you know, clarity to do that. That was Paul's intention, like help me preach in a way that they would receive and be compelled by the spirit. Not so much that it's not clear to me, but to them, it might not be the other thing. I think you said yesterday in a conversation that we all we often misread our kids behavior as to defiance. And so talk about that a little bit of like different ways you have to ask ourselves

24:43as parents, right? Is what are these three things the way they act out? Right, right. Well, in my book, Love and Respect in the family, I address that because I actually got my PhD in family studies, did my dissertation on fathering and was going to address family issues. But I wanted to wait for my kids to grow. And then the Love and Respect message kind of got out there and took over. You know, I wasn't that I was focused on marriage ministry. It was really more the broader scope of family and marriage kind of took over the whole thing. So in the book, Love and Respect for the family, I address three things. One, and this is the struggle of parenting because kids annoy us. I mean, we don't feel unloved by our children. We feel dishonored and disrespected by our children. That's why children are commanded to honor father and mother. There's no command for them to love their parents because that's going to be there. To be loving and compassionate, but there to honor us. So what we have is a vulnerability. Things happen that annoy us, irritate us. They're not listening to us and we're sick and tired.

25:44And so there is this impatience in ourselves. And so then we have to step back. Is this open to finance? Number one, is this just childish behavior? Paul said when I was a child, I, you know, I'd think as a child, speak as a child, reason as a child, but when I became an adult, I did away with childish things. Children are going to be childish. And I have to remind myself of that. And then the other thing is, are they just feeling unloved in this moment? And don't know how to say father, mother. I'm feeling very insecure and very unloved right now. Could you just reassure me of your, your unconditional love? They're not going to do that. They're going to act out and they're going to end up doing things to get our attention because they kind of assume that we're the adult. But those three things is this. Is this the open, defiant child, just defiance, childishness or feeling unloved? That's good. One of the things you guys mentioned in here, which is, I think, crucial today is the way you say something matters. Like tone is so important in how you communicate.

26:46And, you know, at a hard time with that because growing up, I mean, earlier, I've now come to understand what the depth of the neuroscience is even behind that. But earlier on, it was like, no, if something's true, you just say it. Like it's true. Like everybody just needs to deal with it. And it doesn't matter if I say in the way that they find offensive or too strong or whatever. But Kurt Thompson, you know, he reveals a lot in his neuroscience studies just how much the brain senses before it makes sense. That's a phrase I've now been able to just keep with it that the way the brain works at me, it might make me milliseconds, but it senses the tone before it makes sense of anything you're saying. If it senses that your tone is raging, angry, mad, not kind, then it writes off. It filters everything you're about to say through this lens. And that's what you address here. The importance of like kids at an early age knowing you might be telling somebody what's true like here, like the tiny, I think, wasn't a great artist or the way she colored, right? Like the kids just like blarts out, you know, how much her art's not beautiful.

27:49But it's like, wait, think about how you're saying this to her. And could you say that in an encouraging way? Could you communicate that same truth? So I think that's a huge. Well, that was so important to us. And that was something we got a great illustrator, Mandeas, because of how she captured the, you know, non-verples, the facial expressions. And there's this whole sequence there during that conversation where it's just all these panels of Duga confronting his best friends and how he communicates. And I was, you know, early on in the stage, or the art stages, a lot of the direction was from the publisher was to make Biga like a monster, make him kind of, he's being mean to his sister. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, because the message I've gotten from my dad, my whole life is just assume good will about people. And so we really wanted all these characters. They're just, they're good gigglies. They just sometimes make mistakes. And so it was really important that when Duga confronted him, you see kind of this range of emotion, like I have all these photos on my phone, of me doing Biga and Duga and

28:51all their emotions and sending it to the illustrator so we could get it right. And she just nailed it because you see Biga, he's confused. He's like, why is tiny crime? And he didn't even know. He didn't even know. So it was innocent in his just like, well, you know, just saying kind of off the cuff things. And you see Duga kind of behind the scene thinking to himself, that's not really kind. That's not true. That's not necessary. And he's not saying it. He's not saying it. And so he finally, so that thing of like you've got some kids who might, you know, blur, you've got other kids who are needing to learn when to speak up. And so you, the whole first half of the book is Duga thinking all these things and not confronting his friend. And so then when Biga finally says like, why is tiny crime, then Duga goes, okay, now I'm going to teach you these principles. And you see Biga go from confusion to actually kind of feeling a little bit of shame. And then when Duga really, you know, says, but we can have a do over. We can have a do over because I made a time machine. And the time machine really, you know, is kind of a symbol of resilience. It really is a symbol of like we can have a do over.

29:53We can, we can show kids how they can go back and we want this language of like to be in families among friends, even at schools, of just going, can I get a do over? It's a little bit more lighthearted than like, you know, I was wrong. Will you forgive me? And while that is important, it's kind of just an easier lift, I think, for kids and even parents, especially when they were intentional. Exactly. Exactly. Because kids don't have the, until they're taught, they don't have the emotional intelligence. So Biga is just lacking a little bit of emotional intelligence. He's not a bully. And so we just see this whole spectrum. And then he gets the do over and Duga's kind of the voice. He's, you know, like the wisdom from my father and, and he figures it out that I can do this better. And then he's so much more confident as he moves forward. So this reminds me of a theme on the podcast, which is normalized prevention care. It's less like an aggressive like reaction of consequence, but more going, hey, we need to like pivot this a little or train or redirect. And the do over is a way of doing that with kids that's not so heavy handed.

30:56And I have loved this about your, your perspective on all relationships, marriage, parenting, children, whatever that we are all goodwill humans. And sometimes in our relationships, we can condemn each other or ourselves. Because we know the enemy is really just trying to just make shame barriers versus like, no, we are beloved and we are trip over ourselves and we don't get it right. But we have the opportunity for repair. And so it's such a beautiful way of initiating that idea of repair with kids sooner than later. So they're not just hiding and internalizing and going all of that condemnation. Yeah. It's wonderful. Have. Well, on that point, assume the best until you hear the rest. Yeah. You like the little sticky phrases that are there. There's not that error. I like hands right there. I assume the best until you hear the rest. And that's what you, and we can say that to our kids, you know, assume the best until you hear the rest. And there's probably something behind this. Did they really intend to hurt you? Yes, they did. They'll always, you know, tell us that they know what's, but that's where the coaching comes

31:59in. And that's the process that you're talking about. But assuming goodwill and helping our kids understand it doesn't mean that we're not sinful. We are. Right. And there is this willing spirit, Jesus, about the flesh as weak. Well, in a grace. Well, an example that comes to mind is, you know, I'm a mom of three kids and my daughter was six and she had a little girl that was bullying her at school. And I'm a mom of bear. And I'm like, oh, we'll find that girl. Yeah. But I'm like, why is she doing this in school? In France, you have to get up and recite poems. And Milly said that every time she recited her poem, this little girl would be behind the teacher and like making faces at Milly and going like this. And I'm just like, that is so mean. And then we found out that the year before Milly came to the school that that girl had lost her mom. Yeah. And that changed everything. And we were like, oh, and so it really has shifted. Now she's become friends with that little girl, but it shifted for me of like, I was not assuming that there was, I was just like, this girl's mean. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

32:59One question I have because we were watching these family videos last night and you could see the personalities of each of our children just very different. But from the earliest ages, and now they're like in their 20s. And you still see this. It's still there. Same personality. Yeah. Yeah. And then you come down into the room and hear free and say whatever's on their mind. And I'm curious, do you believe like when you look at these characters, do each of them maybe represent a certain temperament of a certain type of child that when a parent realizes, hey, my child's a little more like this all the time. Like they speak their mind without thinking about it. Like that there's some coaching each parent can almost look at, hey, my children are kind of like each of these characters. And therefore, this is where I should probably hone in. Yeah. No, I mean, I think that's a great observation. In fact, I take the position and love and respect and the family of children and moral spiritual beings who make their own choices. I mean, we can tell them to say, thank you, but they have to make a decision to be grateful. Mm-hmm. That would be an illustration. But as parents, we want formulas. We would prefer to have, if we do XYZ, then our child's going to turn out this way.

34:00But in the scripture, you have bad parents with bad children, good parents with good children. But you also have bad parents with good children and good parents with bad children. And there's a quadrant there. And we have to recognize, well, what's the answer to that? The answer often is the internal choices that children are making. So our goal is to create the most loving environment that best motivates them to choose our faith and values. But having said what I said, we say often, don't look too soon for the man and the boy. Don't look too soon for the woman and the girl. And yet, the caveat is there maybe we should start looking a little bit earlier because the marshmallow illustration that perhaps you've seen, remember years ago when they put the marshmallow on the table of two boys or whoever and then the teachers say they'd leave, don't touch that. The boy who went ahead and ate it, knowing it wasn't supposed to, the other did not. They tracked 20, 30 years later that same person had impulse problems. So already you're seeing the manifestation of that adult in the child. Now we don't want to push that too much, but I think it's a very insightful comment

35:03you're making that we need to pay attention to those things. And as we do, we think that you know what, I think that child is a strong will child. And rather than necessarily see them as rebellious because they may not be rebellion, they're going to change the world. But right now they're creating chaos in our family. And there has to be a will needs to look at the virtue underneath the vice and make sure that we say, okay, every strength has a backside. And right now we're the recipients of that weakness. Let's not shame them for that. They may be a strong opinionated, and we've got to keep on them. But that's also going to cause them to stand on the street corner and proclaim cry. Yeah, yeah, I was really encouraged. I had a friend read this and she texted me and said, I'm crying reading this because I have a daughter who's now a teenager, but she's like, she just, you know, can blurt things. And she's like, and she was labeled a lot as a bully growing up. and she's like, but you painted her through Biga in a way that she was just not yet at the emotional intelligence that she needs to be. And so, yeah, I think all of them have personalities.

36:05There's people in my family, there's me, there's really. Yeah. You know, I do hope that each child that reads this feels like they're reflected and I think parents will see themselves as well. Yeah, and I think what makes this book stand apart from many children's books that I've read is that it's really embodying the train up a child in the way they should go. There is this nurture, this caregiving and caretaking, but also directing and doing it in a way that is clear. Like, we're embodying those same for traits as we communicate to our kids and always speaking life and seeing the best in them and knowing there's gonna be a shadow side of that if it's left unchecked or without some direction, but you do give parents very much the tools practically on how I think even marriages engage but also parenting engage. So, yeah. So, if you think this book is just for you to read to your child, that's what I'm discussing. This is for all of us and there's so many deep principles here.

37:07I know one of the things I read recently in a autobiography of Walter Isaacson writes about Benjamin Franklin and he talks about how deep his convictions were. But he has this phrase, he goes, he held deep convictions but carried them lightly. And that was a good lesson of him because I have deep convictions and I almost presume everybody else should either get in line or feel the way to it. Or feel the way to it, right? But I thought I was not that Benjamin Franklin's a great Christian to hold up. It's not that, it's the virtuous side of that thought that I see even in this book. Like, speak the truth, but do it kindly, make sure it's clear and necessary and I think that's what it means to sort of carry some of these things lightly. So thank you guys for writing this book. And we hope this is just the beginning of the book. Full on series about Bego where we get to keep following this but we encourage all of you to go get this book. Make sure it's part of your family. Buy some for the grandkids. Christmas time, go ahead and stock up, hand them out. This will be a great resource for your family.

38:09Yeah, enjoy lives in Paris. So she's all the way over here in Franklin in the studio from Paris with her husband Matt. And I love all the little French, the French little anecdotes in here, which is very fun. We teach vocabulary and some French words. Yeah. And some, you know, French painters. Yeah, exactly. It's great to be with you guys for having us. Thank you. We appreciate the affirmation. While that was so fun, as usual. I know, we love them so much. I know lots of humor in the room with them, but go get the book. This is a perfect book, obviously, not just for the children, but for each of us. I was learning and learning just when to use words and when not to how to do this better. And I think it's just a great reminder for all of us about our own relational health. Yes. So if you have a young one, grab one, it's great for a bedtime story or an after school story or if you're homeschooling, just something to sneak in there in the curriculum. I think your kids will really love it and enjoy it.

39:10And just be ready for just some really wonderful interviews. We're so grateful and excited for all the guests that we have this season. We'll be every Wednesday going forward here for a few weeks. So please listen in, share with friends, and we'll see you next week.