Special Episode: Clueless

I was worried he was getting a little dodgy in the middle part, but then that finale.

Wow!

Hello and welcome to Two For One, the podcast where we discuss two movies based on the same source material,

but today we've got a special episode for you. I'm Claire.

And David, and today we are going to be talking about Clueless.

Clueless, which neither has had ever seen before.

The 1995 Teen Comedy Romance Comedy Clueless.

It's actually an adaptation of Emma, which I think we've known for a while now,

but it sort of piqued our interest and then recently we got the chance to go to see it at the movie theater.

So we thought as an adaptation of Emma, why don't we talk about it?

We're pretty familiar with Emma itself.

Yeah, we did an episode on Emma back in season one comparing the 1996 Gwyneth Paltrow version to the 2020 Anya Taylor Joy version.

So now I've got a third movie in the mix and we want to ask, how is it as an adaptation?

So what are your initial thoughts on that, David?

I think I enjoyed it. You know, I mean, just in general, I enjoyed it even though it is very 90s with the looks and the slang

and being set in Beverly Hills in the 90s, it's definitely placed in time.

But it's a good movie and it was fun to look for the one-to-one characters in the plot points

because we do know Emma so well by now that we can be like, okay, Alicia Silverstone, she's share in the movie, that's Emma.

And then this new girl in school tie, that's going to be Harriet Smith.

And then to be able to do that for pretty much all the characters, most of the major characters in the movie was kind of a fun little Easter egg hunt.

Yeah, I adored the setting. I thought it felt real like the way that they were talking and everything.

I was expecting it to be more farcical, more like a parody of being high schoolers, but honestly a lot of it rang true to me.

Like, okay, maybe you're not going to be on this blocky cell phone in the middle of class, maybe you would have been, I don't know.

But their general attitudes, their way of talking to each other, both my memories of being in high school and my experiences currently as a teacher, I'm like, oh yeah, like, that is what students are like in the classroom.

Yeah, it's funny because I definitely felt like it was this heightened.

What did you say, satirical, today, farcical? You thought it was?

It felt like that to me. I mean, I'm obviously not hanging around teenagers, and especially not like in the 90s.

Like, I was alive in the 90s, but this seems like over the top. And I think they were, you know, having fun with it, but...

It's so funny how life, when you're at that age, can kind of be over the top.

That's why teen dramas and teen comedies hit a very specific note, you know?

Like, yeah, it's going to be exaggerated. It's going to be being adjusted for the screen, but there is some truth behind it.

Yeah, and I guess that using mannerisms and slang and accents from a specific time combined with already, you know, people don't really talk like they do in movies,

but you only notice that so much when they're talking using like silly outdated slang or in funny accents, you know, like even when we watch noir's and stuff and you have Humphrey Boog are going,

all right, listen, doll, you know, and it's like, well, people don't talk like that. Maybe they never even did, but like, it's sort of like, oh, this is a movie, this is movie dialogue.

Yeah, just walk into a classroom in America, though, and everybody's going to be especially, oh my gosh, with the internet, the way it is now.

Everything is skippity, whatever. I don't even know, because it's going to be a different, it's going to be different words a few months from now, you know?

But when you're in that age range, you really have a specific vocabulary, and it changes with each generation, and I don't know, with Clueless, it sounds like the director who had previously done, what's it called, fast times at Ridgemont High?

Yeah.

Which is not my favorite movie, but I think this director had a particular feel for high schoolers at this time.

Yeah, didn't she go hang out at Beverly Hills High School for a while, and just like, listen to the way kids talk to each other?

Yeah, so we saw this as a phantom event, which is movies that have been released previously, being brought back to the movie theater, and so it started out with a presentation sort of talking about the background, and they mentioned, yeah, just studying actual high schoolers, and I think that's interesting and true to life.

I mean, if they were to make a movie about high schoolers now, they had all those little plaster casts from having those jobs and everything, which I think is speaking both to Beverly Hills and everything.

Oh really?

That just totally went over my head.

But it again made me think about being in the classroom, and everyone's got those little pimple stickers now, which, oh my gosh, when kids look back at their pictures, maybe pimple stickers are here to stay.

But I think they're going to be a very specific look for our current era of adolescence.

Is it like a fashion item?

Yeah, because they get them there like colorful, and they'll be like little star or something, but it's also covering your pimple.

So, I mean, it makes a lot of sense.

Dual purpose, cute, and hides your pimple.

I don't know about all that.

First of all, I don't know that I didn't know that they would just let you, like, go hang out at a high school if that would make your writing better.

That seems a suspect.

There's research.

And also, I don't know if I would want to do that research if it means hanging out around all these terrible children for any amount of time.

But regardless of all that, did you have any thoughts on the movie itself?

Well, okay, so you just said that it would be terrible to be around these high schoolers, right?

So, thinking about Emma, Jane Austen wanted this to be a character who no one would like except for Jane Austen herself.

Like, Emma is meant to be tedious, annoying, full of herself, all of these negative qualities.

And then she grows throughout the story, and Mr. Knightley is there to guide her, and ultimately they fall in love.

In this case, it's share, played by, as you said, Alicia Silverstone.

And I don't know if she was unlikable enough, because it was kind of like,

everyone is the same level of unlikable because they're all of these annoying high schoolers.

You know, there is nothing special about share, I thought.

I definitely thought she was more unlikable even than Emma, because Emma is just like oblivious.

You might say clueless.

And like, that's obviously what they were trying to draw out in clueless.

But she also is just like a bad person, more so than Emma even.

At least it seemed to me, and I didn't realize how happy I would be to see her like take him down until you get the scene where she fails her driver's test.

And you had seen her driving all throughout the movie.

And I had actually seen clips of that before, and I was like, oh, they make a big joke of her driving dangerously.

So then it was really satisfying to see her totally fail her driving test and try to like sweet talk her way out of it.

Like she does with everything and the driver driving instructor was like, no, you're just, you're done.

That was like so satisfying.

And I think it was satisfying because you've watched her do all these selfish and dumb things throughout this entire movie.

And finally, she's getting punished for it, even if like, it's such a minor way.

I agree that that was satisfying.

I don't know why she didn't feel as bad as Emma to me.

I think because Emma does so much shit talking other people, like she's always being mean about Mrs. Bates behind her back.

And then straight up to Miss Bates face says that awful, you know, oh, you're just going to say something stupid line.

And that's just so mean.

And I don't know if we ever see Cher be mean towards people in that way.

Like she talks about the different clicks at the high school.

And yeah, she judges the click that Travis is in.

And I guess she says some mean things to Travis.

But I don't know.

Did you feel like she was as mean towards people?

I get that she was stupid and clueless and bad at driving and didn't really have a accurate world view.

But did you feel like she was a mean person?

Cher?

I think she was just selfish.

And I think the point of the movie and of this interpretation of Emma is that cluelessness and selfishness and those qualities that go along can produce like a mean person,

even in someone who isn't trying to be mean.

Like Emma was just carried away when she said the mean thing about Mrs. Bates and didn't realize like,

oh, you can't just be casually cruel to people even if you think it's just being funny.

You have to be aware of that.

You have to be a better person.

So I think with Cher it was more she only realized at the end that you can't manipulate people and then wash your hands of all the consequences.

Like she wasn't intentionally mean to tie but the way that she manipulated tie really fucked tie over and she didn't really take responsibility for that until the end of the movie.

With everybody that she was doing that with, she just never took responsibility for any of it.

Let's stay on tie for a moment.

So tie is played by Brittany Murphy and she is the recreation of Harriet Smith from Emma.

And so in Emma Harriet Smith is a girl who doesn't know her status in society.

She's being raised in a boarding house. She doesn't know who her parents are.

And there's a whole sort of social aspect to that where Emma wants to pair her off and doesn't know which level of society Harriet matches best with.

And certainly overshoots for Harriet when Mr. Martin who Harriet likes is also more the level of society that Harriet actually is on.

And so there's all of this sort of old society rules to that.

And I thought the way they adapted it for being a Beverly Hills high school was interesting.

She's gotten accent you said she was like was like a long island accent.

I don't know something like that.

Yeah, something something strong.

She comes in different style immediately asking if they have any weed that she can smoke and shared doesn't even understand the question.

So it's very clear that tie would fit in best with Travis and the stoners and the skateboarders and that sort of crew.

But instead share takes her under her wing and tries to get her paired off with the popular crowd.

And I thought that was a pretty good match up because tie was certainly more comfortable with Travis but could be friends with Sharon Dion and all those popular kids.

Yeah, I think this is definitely one of those movies that makes a lot of high school clicks.

And I don't know maybe it was just where I went to high school that I thought all the click stuff in media was very much overrated.

And like yeah, there are groups of friends and people who are quote unquote popular.

But yeah, because clickiness is such like a trope and especially in the 90s and into the 2000s all teen media was about clicks.

Right. It's definitely still a trope and the one that you can easily access.

And I think it's a pretty good analog for rigid social hierarchies.

So anyhow, I thought I thought that was a good way to present tie.

And I thought Brittany Murphy played the character really well where you could tell her actual desires but you could also tell that she was being swayed by share.

And what I liked was that share was teaching her vocabulary and also like fitness and all these things clearly working on her as a person, not just socially.

And that felt very much like the way Emma treated Harriet like a student.

Yeah, like a charity case that you can make into a more acceptable person for higher society.

Yeah. And it also gave us the great interaction where Murray played by Donald Faison comes up to them and says a bunch of stuff about like misogyny and everything.

And like, I don't know, part of it, it explained that yeah, the way they're talking is incorporating a lot of slang but also incorporating a lot of like really advanced vocabulary.

Okay, but street slang is an increasingly valid form of expression.

Most of the feminine pronouns do have mocking but not necessarily much sadistic undertone.

Wow. You guys talk like grown ups. Oh, this is a really good school.

But then they also make a joke of like sometimes share says words and doesn't really know what they mean or how to use them.

She's just having fun using this grandiose vocabulary.

Yeah, and we get a good joke of her having to be taught what sporadically means.

And then immediately being introduced to share stepbrother played by Paul Rudd.

These things, yeah.

Yeah, I hope not sporadically.

Yes, that was good. But I think it also sort of again rang true that if you're in this ritzy side of town and going to this school where all the kids are of this social class and their parents are lawyers and everything.

Yeah, they probably do talk in the silly mix of slang and overeducated vocabulary.

Yeah, like privilege isn't just how often they're able to go shopping but just it's in the way that they talk and the way that they behave and things like that.

But tie also serves a different purpose and clueless than Harriet did in Emma, which is that moment where share slash Emma needs to reckon with who she is is different.

Across these movies and these stories.

Because in Emma, like we said earlier, it's when she says that really mean thing to miss Bates and Mr. Knightley choose her out for it.

But he didn't even need to.

You can see as soon as she says it, she realizes, oh, that was a really mean thing.

And it's that self-reflection of how I let myself become this.

That is what causes Emma to change who she is.

Whereas with share, it's tie who says it to share.

And it's like, why am I even listening to you to begin with?

Your virgin who can't drive.

And that's sort of the moment where share has that reckoning.

Although to your point that comes right after the driving instructor also told her, you're not going to get your way.

Yeah, I don't think it was so much her calling her a virgin who can't drive.

Because obviously share knew those things about herself.

But partially realizing that tie has pretty good reason to dislike her.

And also realizing that these things that she just was hand waving away about herself.

Oh, I'm like a virgin, but I can tell everybody else about how to manage their relationships.

That like, that's not going to cut it forever.

I guess I like that.

I had been surprised that part of it seemed to be share feeling that she had taught tie to be that mean.

And again, I didn't think share was quite that mean.

But I think you're right, that it's specifically what was said and where share is at that point in the movie and the story,

where she kind of does have to reckon with all of these things.

And I really, really love that clueless did is she then takes the time and does the work as they say.

Like she has this narration where she's having to decide, how can I do a makeover of my internal self?

You know, I actually, I enjoyed the narration in this movie.

Yeah, I usually hate narration, but I feel like there's something a little farcical about this type of narration

where everything she's saying is just so absurd on its face.

But yeah, it likes the narration.

I think it worked in this movie.

And also in the scene you're talking about, she's like walking in front of a fountain that then she has this light bulb moment.

Yes.

Light bulb moment and the fountain goes off behind her.

I did that.

You know, it's visually satisfying.

Yeah, so she's sort of realizing a lot, but that specifically happens when she realizes she loves Josh.

And she's like, okay, I have to be this better person.

And you know, I just like it.

She, she decides to help her teachers outreach program and does some narration about like how she should be recognizing and learning from the way her friends are good.

You know, she's like Christian always sees like art and beauty and things.

And Dion and Murray are actually like very sweet and generous to each other.

And I like that that was part of her growth as well is like I can learn from other people.

So yeah, just all of this is to say, I really like how Clueless took its time with Cher becoming a better person.

And Emma kind of rushes that because that's like after the climax of the movie, basically.

So you mentioned Josh a second ago and I think we should explain who Josh is.

Oh yeah.

Because in this movie, Cher has a father and her mother is dead but her father has been married before and her former stepmom had a son.

And that's Paul Rudd.

So he's her former stepbrother.

Yes.

But he's living with them for some reason for the time being.

So they sort of have this brother and sister relationship where they don't talk all the time, but they easily fall back into you know sort of having been.

Kids together, but also he's the stand-in for Mr. Knightley here.

So you know that they should end up together.

There's something about this that didn't sit well with me.

I think that there's this weird 90s thing with stepkids where like did everybody in the 90s want stepkids to just be fucking each other?

Like why is this?

It's exactly the relationship that Emma would have and Mr. Knightley have in Emma.

I think they had he had a brother really relationship to her without actually being her brother.

And I think there's a difference between having this thing where oh like we don't think of each other that way.

And then being like oh there's actually no reason that we shouldn't think of each other that way versus actually there are big reasons that we shouldn't think of each other that way.

You know namely being siblings.

But they're not siblings. I mean I actually I was like really pleased to see that Clueless set up the relationship the same way.

I thought they did a good job of making it clear that they're not siblings but that by virtue of their history share wouldn't even consider him as a romantic option.

That's why it would take that light bulb moment and the fountain going off for her to realize like oh actually I love this guy.

So I thought that was really well done. I also was like they kept an age difference not the same big age difference that Emma has but like a significant one.

Paul Rudd's character Josh is like at least three years older than her maybe more.

I mean she's supposed to be what 16 and he's in college.

So yeah no I mean all that aside I think Paul Rudd did a great job and I know it's an internet meme but he truly does not age seems like.

I think this must be the earliest thing that I've seen him in and he just looks and acts like Paul Rudd.

I think it might have been his first movie but I could be wrong.

That means that I think Josh needed more scenes.

Yeah and I was thinking what with her having this best friend I was trying to think you know is there an analog for her friend Dion from Emma.

And I don't really think there is so I was thinking okay well who does she spend time with like who are the voiceovers meant for and who is she like opining to in Emma.

And I think most of the time it's either Harriet or it's Mr. Knightley right.

Or sometimes Miss Bates.

But having this Dion character for her to like bounce these thoughts off of and sort of like a partner in crime without really much purpose.

Yeah I think they could have subbed her out and had more Josh time.

I like Dion as a character and I like Dion and Murray because it gives her a relationship to look at and ultimately aspire to.

And I'm glad that they weren't afraid to change the formula and throw in these characters that didn't exist in Emma.

But I do agree that it does mess with the balance of screen time like character time and I think the worst hit is Josh the Mr. Knightley character.

Because we need to believe that share is interested in him but we also need to believe that tie is interested in him and we get very little of him with tie.

Yeah I mean we get the rescue at the dance where she sort of awkwardly standing by herself not knowing what to do and he just comes up and answer the dance.

He should also be the one to save her at the mall right isn't it Mr. Knightley who saves Harriet from gypsies.

She needed more reasons to admire.

Well isn't it Frank Churchill who doesn't really exist in this picture? I don't remember.

Oh my gosh no you're right it is Frank Churchill which then makes sense because Christian is the analog for Frank Churchill.

So they did keep the same character.

The difference is I guess that it happens on the same night as the dance so even though Frank Churchill saved her gosh I don't know.

Now I'm straining to remember Emma.

Well I agree that I think Josh could have used more time and at the end when share realizes that she wants to be with Josh there's like a montage of all the things that have happened in the movie between them.

And I was surprised there were like so many and I was like literally they showed every scene of Paul Rudd and Alicia Silverstone like tickling each other or you know watching a movie on the couch or something like that.

And then finally when they admit their love for each other it's a very nice scene they're sitting at the top of the stairs.

You know Josh just stood up for her against some lawyer who was talking down to her for being a you know airhead girl and everything.

And that's very sweet but I thought that dialogue didn't make me swim the same way that Mr. Knightley's profession of love for Emma is really just so so sweet.

I felt like Josh was waiting for share to say I'm into you whereas Mr. Knightley leaves no question.

My dearest Emma for dearest you will always be my dearest most beloved Emma tell me at once.

I cannot make speeches if I if I loved you less than I might be able to talk about it more.

I think it's still work I think when he leans in for the kiss it's that moment hits really well but I think there's nothing like Jane Austen's dialogue maybe.

Yeah I sort of agree that it could have been adapted more directly and it might have been more effective and it did feel like gratifying to see it finally come together.

But it did seem like it went on it like dragged on with them not really saying much for like a while and you're just like okay just tell him yeah you're down.

Yeah okay I felt the same way I was like we're saying a lot but not saying the things I want to hear yeah.

All right so just some other characters that are one to one they have Elton included this who's the analog for Mr. Elton.

Wait can I just say that the guy who played Elton in this movie looks so much like Josh O'Connor.

Dude yes I was like this is the same guy.

Like before I even made the connection of the characters I mean obviously I knew that Elton was from Emma.

But I was like who does this guy look like he looks like the guy in the tennis sex movie and then it occurred to me oh the guy in the tennis sex movie was also an Emma.

He played Mr. Elton and I was like what the fuck kind of a coincidence is that.

David is talking about challengers when he says the tennis sex movie but yes I totally thought same thing.

So Elton Inclus is played by Jeremy Sisto and I think that was one of the characters who I mean maybe I was primed visually because of what you're saying but it felt like Mr. Elton did everything.

I even just called him Mr. Elton. It seemed like Elton did everything that Mr. Elton does in Emma.

Also the only character I think that shared the name of the Emma character right.

Yeah that's true.

Yeah so it was a very one to one and even like to the point of the ride home and then in the carriage ride he sort of like creeps on her in this you know mostly awkward but like with a little bit of like creepiness to him.

Oh I did all this for you I only I didn't care about tie I did all this for you I put the picture you took of tie up in my locker because you took it.

Like the painting in Emma yeah.

Yeah exactly I had even forgotten what exactly it was in Emma but it was Emma's painting of Harriet.

So same although I don't think it works quite as well with a photo because if you put up a photo of somebody in your locker.

Yeah that's different but like if your friend paints a picture of somebody you might be like oh that's awesome because my friend did it.

But not like a photo unless your friend is a famous photographer or something like that.

Yeah I totally see what you're saying.

That aside I mean it's yeah the exact same and then the way that he acts for the rest of the movie where he's just generally dickish toward everybody in the movie.

He gets with Amber who even though she's been there throughout the whole movie.

She is totally Mrs. Elton where it's like okay you're like popular you're of our social class but are you annoying?

In consequential too.

Yeah other characters who I thought were really good replicas of their Emma character.

Mel Horowitz is shares dad he's played by Dan Hadea and he is very much like Mr. Woodhouse.

It's so sweet the way share doats on him and it's very reminiscent of the way Emma doats on her father which is the clearest indicator early on that Emma has a good heart.

Yeah that she's not a total shit bag.

Yeah and I think this was part of what was keeping me from thinking share was a bad person because you know she clearly loved her dad.

And there's a really sweet moment where Mel Horowitz gives her advice and I'm trying to recall exactly what he says but you remember the scene he's telling her to highlight all of these phone calls and she's like I like someone but he doesn't like me and his response is like oh how could they but then he goes on and he just says a bunch of really sweet stuff about how she reminds him of her mother.

And that was just that was I think the sweetest moment include us.

Yeah they had a good relationship because he sort of manages to be a little bit aloof and distant without you doubting that they have this really close relationship.

Exactly exactly yes.

So then the other characters I said were really similar to their Emma characters were Mr. Wendell Hall and Ms. Toby Geith the teachers played by Wallace Sean and Twink Kaplan.

They are Mr. and Mrs. Weston.

So Emma starts with Emma having paired her governess with some local man of property and that she's like very proud of this matchmaking and that's what basically sets off the whole plot of Emma.

But I like that and clueless she's doing it because she wants to get these teachers together in order to get them in a good mood so that they'll give her better grades.

Right it's more selfish like and that's just when I think about share.

She's doing everything for these like selfish reasons where at least Emma yeah she's very smoke about having gotten her former governess and Mr. Nightley's stepbrother or something like that or brother whatever but she got them together

and she's like I'm awesome at this because people are going to be happier because of me but it's not like oh and I got a bunch of money for doing it or I got some reward for doing it.

It's like I just feel good about myself.

I feel like I'm awesome and everybody should just listen to me all the time.

But that is the biggest departure I think in clueless just that we actually see her get the two of them together which puts in her mind that she is a brilliant matchmaker.

Yeah it made me wonder if reading Emma if you would get more into how she did it.

Yeah I can't remember.

But also everything you're saying is making me realize I should have been more critical of share.

I liked getting to see the way she was manipulating them into this relationship though.

It was both fun, it established things about her character and it was a reminder of that plot point in Emma.

So tick tick tick I liked it.

And it wasn't totally done with a bad heart.

It wasn't like these people are going to be worse off but I'll be better off.

It's like this is a win win win for everybody right?

And they are so happy.

I mean the movie ends with them getting married so ultimately share did do a good thing.

Yeah she did a good thing for the wrong reasons and sort of learned the wrong lesson from it because then when Ty shows up she's like this girl needs me.

She needs a makeover, she needs me to figure out her relationship and status at this school.

Yeah.

Alright so you just said that that is a pretty big difference from Emma but I wanted to and I wanted to bring up the two major character and plot differences that I noted.

Which are both kind of minor but I think significant.

So the first one is Frank Churchill who Emma is obsessed with from the beginning of the story even though he hasn't been living in town.

He's been off somewhere else.

She's like oh Frank Churchill is coming back and I'm like oh I'm all about Frank Churchill.

And in clueless share mentions very early on that this guy Christian is I guess his parents move around so he'll be back next semester.

I think his parents are divorced so he's splitting time between his moment as that something like that.

Something like that and anyhow that's like the only mention of Christian at the beginning of the movie and then all of a sudden he shows up.

But because of the narration you've got going on in clueless as soon as he shows up it's like oh it's significant that this guy is here.

And I thought they did a good job of like making the mention of him early on in the movie memorable so that when he shows up

you immediately know who this guy is. That seemed a very Jane Austen to me where you know when you read Jane Austen

you're asked to like remember who all of these characters are and all and like keep these relationships in mind.

Yeah no exactly because there are so many frigging characters.

Yeah but I also really liked Christian as a character and I liked how different he was from Frank Churchill.

Like at the end of the day I think Frank Churchill is just an asshole and part of it is because he had to keep his engagement to Jane Fairfax a secret.

So he's leading Emma on and all that but he also just treats people like play things like I know Emma says that mean thing to miss Bates

but she only says it because Frank Churchill set up this mean spirited game in the first place you know.

Yeah we had a difference of opinion about the interpretations of Frank Churchill on the Emma podcast so we don't need to rehash all that.

But I think what makes Christian a little different is he is not hiding some secret romance.

He's hiding that he's gay and even share doesn't get that like everybody else gets it.

And I think they do a pretty good job of presenting it to the audience as this guy might be gay before share understands

but she's just so you know blinded that she she's like I'm gonna go for this you know.

Yeah.

And I do think it's a little bit douchey so like lead her on as hard as he does in the movie but it doesn't go as far as like whatever Frank Churchill is doing.

I mean you could see it as him leading her on. He never says that he's gay.

Ultimately we hear that straight up from Murray Donald Faeson's character.

You made Christian as a cake boy.

Oh what?

He's a disco dancer and Oscar Wilde reading strides in taking hold in front of Dorothy.

Know what I'm saying?

No way.

He's gay.

Not even.

Yes even.

He does like to shop share and the boy can dress.

It is like you're saying very clear to the audience.

And so I think maybe if Christian is just not comfortable saying that out loud yet he still knows who he is

and wants to be friends with share.

And like when they're watching the movie and she's playing footsie he's just like I gotta go.

So I think as soon as he realizes how she's interpreting things he splits.

But he still says we're friends right?

I don't know.

I feel like he's such a sympathetic kid.

He's sympathetic while also being pretty annoying too.

Like he shows up for the first time on screen and he's wearing like a full suit in school.

But like full suit.

Yeah like no tie like the jacket over his shoulder.

Yeah.

Sort of like a throwback suit.

And then he shows up the same way to pick her up on their date and her dad I think has the best line of the movie.

What's with you kid?

You think the death of Sammy Davis left an opening in the rat pack?

Oh that was great.

That was good.

He just like doesn't have anything to say to that.

But then he takes her to a scar show.

I guess it's the mighty mighty boss tones right?

Oh it's not that that was.

Okay I couldn't idea them.

And so like his attire sort of fits in with like the throwback to a scar and swing and all that.

But he's also clearly not very interested in dating her.

So there's some like assholeishness there but mostly it's just hiding this innocuous secret.

Yeah he's a pretentious kid.

Yeah pretentious.

He's a genuine friend to share.

Yeah I agree.

So I really liked how they made a different character than Frank Churchill.

The other character and plot point that I thought departed significantly was Travis.

Who I loved.

Yeah I mean Brett and Meyer made such an impression from like the very first scene in the movie

where we're in class with Shayer and all of her classmates and he's there.

And he's clearly you know the stoner, skater, archetype.

But he's so good and he has just so many great moments where he gets I think worst attendance for the semester and gets up

and he gives a thank you speech to the crowd and everybody applaud.

This is so unexpected.

I didn't even have a speech prepared.

But I would like to say this.

Tardiness is not something you can do all our on your own.

Many many people contributed to my tardiness.

I'd like to thank my parents for never giving me a ride to school.

The LA City bus driver for taking a chance on an unknown kid.

And last but not least the wonderful crew at McDonald's for spending hours making those Egg McMuffins

without which I might never be tardy.

I thought he was like the anyhow star of this movie.

I thought he was great.

And so he's the analog for Robert Martin who is the love interest for Harriet.

And in Emma we hear about Mr. Martin plenty because we hear Harriet talking about him.

Oh he proposed.

Harriet has to sell that she has feelings for Mr. Martin even though Emma is dissuading her of those feelings.

And that's complicated to do.

And brings back your point of like they're going to mention all these characters and you got to keep track

because at the end of the movie when Harriet ends up with Mr. Martin you have to be happy about that.

Yeah you got to like it.

So with Clueless I think they were like okay Travis is going to be in a different social group than the rest of them.

But they're all still at the same high school.

Like they're going to see each other.

They're going to know each other way better than Emma would ever have known Mr. Martin.

And even though it is Clikish in the sense that Cher is you know telling Ty who she can and can't hang out with.

Clearly Cher also doesn't mind like talking to Travis most of the time.

She knows that she's above him like in the social hierarchy of the school.

But I think she also kind of likes him.

But you also because they're interacting more you see her like be directly mean to him.

Yeah.

That's again to her being more of an asshole.

That is the meanest I think Cher ever is is the way she talks to Travis.

Yeah another point against Cher there.

But I agree with you Travis was a really great character fun character and all the interactions between him and Ty made it very clear that they clicked like that they sparked.

I thought there was real chemistry between him and Brittany Murphy.

Yeah it was nice to see that pair as you said because you want to be happy at the end when Emma or Cher gives up on her machinations and says fine just get with this dude that you clearly want to be with right.

And you're supposed to be like yes you learned a lesson and you're right.

So it's nice that we get to see it as opposed to in both of the Emma movies we watched you don't get to see that.

I don't remember the book but it's from Emma's perspective so I would imagine she did not have much direct interaction with Mr. Martin in the book.

I mean I do love the scene with Emma apologizing to Mr. Martin in the 2020 version but that is their only interaction you're right.

Yeah and he's just kind of like a sad sack of nothing like he doesn't make much of an impression so you're not like thrilled about it.

You're not thrilled for him you're thrilled for Harriet.

The one thing about Travis and the chemistry that he has with Thai is that it adds to clueless really fast tracking the whole plot line of Thai having a crush on Josh Paul Rudd's character for any amount of time.

Because after she's rejected by Elton Mr. Elton she's then supposed to want Josh the Mr. Knightley character before finally she gets released from all of this game and can be with the guy that her heart was always going after.

Because it's so clear to us that she should be with Travis even when she tells share oh I want to see Josh more often like we don't believe that.

Yeah and share and share isn't doing anything about it until the very end of the movie when she realizes this is happening because that's the same moment when she realizes no I want to be with Josh.

And then it's so much about share and her changing who she is as a person the next time we see Thai it's a nice it's a really sweet apology between the two of them.

But they're also going to go see Travis skateboard and immediately the narration is like I knew I didn't have to worry about Thai and Josh and it's like okay wash our hands of that that plot lines over you know didn't even begin.

So I can't be too upset about that because it is like red herring of a plot line but you don't get that internal conflict of share having to be like I love the person that Thai loves and how do I help her if it's against what I want.

And Emma has to decide do I not want her to try to get with Mr. Knightley because he's above her or like is there something else going on and yeah there's sort of this internal conflict in her but she just never deals with that in clueless.

Yeah it's like next into the narration but we get less about how am I gonna you know support Thai and more about oh I need to change who I am as a person so I think it kind of gets lost and all that.

But those were my thoughts about you know the characters and what was the same and what were the significant changes was there anything else that stuck out to you.

Overall you know I think it was a pretty good adaptation of Emma I don't know if I only read the book and seen the movie I don't know what point I would have realized that this is doing Emma because I think that's it's always sort of hard to make those connections without them being pointed out to you but yeah I thought it was a pretty close adaptation.

Yeah I agree I agree so David how would you rank all three of these movies we've got clueless 1995 Emma 1996 Emma 2020.

Well the beauty of the special episode is that I don't have to use the ranking system but I like I mean we both said we like the 2020 Emma better than the 1996 one of Fowl Trail 1.

You know I liked clueless I've only seen it once now so I would watch it again at some point but it's hard to really rank it.

You can't rank them? I bet I find them very rankable and I bet you already know what I would say.

I do. Emma 2020 is such a good movie I love it that has to come in first.

And then you're putting clueless behind that.

Then I'm putting clueless behind that because I cannot stand Emma 1996.

I think you're hating it more in your mind than you did at the time.

I mean maybe I should go back and watch it but I don't want to because I don't like it.

You're only picturing you and McGregor's hair and how bad that was and you're not picturing anything else.

I'm picturing the way at the end how Gwyneth Paltrow does no amends for the way she's been a terrible person.

We don't get a scene of her apologizing to miss Bates we don't get a real scene of her apologizing to Mr. Martin.

I don't think we ever get a scene where she has dialogue with Harriet again.

No we do and all she does is brag about the fact that she's married Mr. Knightley.

I do think that clueless and the 1996 version of Emma are more tonally compatible.

Because when we did Emma we talked about how I think it's more of an obvious satire of the wealthy people that it's depicting

and how we're supposed to judge them for their wealth and their frivolity and all that.

In 2020 I don't think we're really judging them for that in the same way.

In 1996 we are and in clueless we definitely are.

Like so much of the joke is she's obsessed with clothes and shopping and I would have touched with reality.

That's interesting because I definitely see what you're saying.

But I would match up clueless with Emma 2020 for both wanting to have fun and be a visual spectacle as well as telling this story.

So maybe clueless is a nice marriage of the two almost as if Emma made the match herself.

Alright well I think that it about does it for our special episode covering clueless and comparing it to the Emma movies and evaluating it as an adaptation of Jane Austen's novel.

So thank you for listening. I've been David.

And Claire.

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