So What's Up With The CFL...? JOC Talk 2.

0:00We're back in here, part two, we're back in here. Part two with our buddy Joshua O'Connor, who's helping me live up, this actually, this music's brand new. It's so good. As a filthy guitarist, by the way. We started it out on Monday when Rob was in here. I immediately, like, recoil like every damn day. I don't know. A lot of days. A lot of days. Many days. Most of the day. But you're here for a second straight day. So you are contributing. You're helping me get to this every damn day goal for TCM, and thanks for sticking around. Two days, my absolute pleasure.

1:00Thank you for putting up with me so much. Well, we got sidetracked a couple times there. During the first, yeah, it's a little weird. So we will have another point here. We'll talk about some things outside of hockey. And if you did happen to miss part one, that was covered world juniors, covering under 18s, the growth of broadcasting around women's hockey, how a cameraman almost killed Nick Suzuki. Look, there was a lot of things in that episode. It's a good, good dialogue right there. I talk to you in audio.com, or on whatever podcast app you're here in this right now, go back, check it out. It is time for another point. What did you, uh, what did you grab out of the TCM Magic fridge? It's fun. So when I saw that you had it, I kind of had it covered. I'm so sorry. If it was saved for anyone. Not at all, man. I, I, I have a deep, undying love for Nickelbrook Brewery. And, uh, you had a naughty neighbor in there. So I scooped that for anyway. They make nice stuff. Um, this one, it's actually still the very last. Of my Christmas themed beers.

2:01Ooh, from the Whipper Snapper Brewing Company. They had a, uh, an advent calendar. They do every year, uh, the 12 days of craft beer miss. And, um, I obviously polished that off in the moment. But, uh, I was in there just a couple days before Christmas. And they had like spare cans of whichever days from the calendar you like. And I grabbed up a bunch of, of this one. It's their, uh, clove stout. So it's got a little spice to it. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So a bit of a ramp down from, uh, you would, I both, um, on day one, part one here of the conversation we're at 10% beers. Yeah. This one, you know, foot off the gas a little bit, right? Just a little bit. Yeah. But if we drink multiples of these, you know, same same. Yeah. There may yet be a third part. We'll, uh, we'll see you could listen to stay tuned. We talk a lot of shit. Ha, ha, ha, ha. This is the most ADD podcasts ever. And I'm so, oh, it's 100% my fault. And you, you're nice enough to just let me go off on these tangents and give you, I'm usually the one who's doing it long answers on like the most random shit.

3:04Hey, I, you got serious work to do. If you're going to pass Mr. AJ Jackie back in terms of the most long-winded answers that, um, you know, when I learned from the best, I spent a lot of years working with AJ. So, um, look, let's start with the CFL. Yeah, a beast, you know, well, I do. There was a bit of a thing. When you and I talked about this, uh, in the quote unquote, green room here, a little bit, the idea of promoting itself and its growth and whatever else. And on the Monday show, Rob and I discussed this, you probably saw it. It was a little bit of a stir last week that TSN put out this, you know, best time of year to be a sportsman. Coming up, graphic. Yeah. WNBA playoffs, Martian madness, PWHL playoffs, certainly had, uh, the masters coming up right, the FIFA World Cup coming up NHL NBA, everything that was going on. And they missed F1 and CFL, right? Right. Yeah.

4:04And CFL, that's your national rights holder. That's your broadcast partner. Yeah. It's not a good look. I don't know that it's apocalyptic. I don't know that it was as bad as everyone made it out to be, but it's clearly whatever in turn put together that graphic who I don't want to crush here, right? Yeah. Whoever put, can I interrupt? By all means, man. I don't, I say this with the utmost respect. And I'm not trying to catch it at anybody who, like whoever made it. And I mean this seriously. Serious is a hard tack when I say this. One of the biggest pet peeves in the industry, in sports marketing. And this purely from educational standpoint is being like, I don't know what intern did this. I don't know what intern posted this. They're not interns. These are professional social media managers, professional social media employees, or marketing employees. So I just don't know how to hear a little bit of that. No, no, no. But like, where did that come from?

5:06That's crazy. I see certain things. When I know I messed up, no, I got to get this. No, this purely educational, but like that is a big thing online where you're like, what? And it's like, dude, this is 2026. These are like pretty well paid employees. Like, and I imagine that graphic had to go through like eight levels of shit before it was approved to be posted. And maybe I'm wrong. I could be totally off base. But for all my sports social media peeps out there. I'm going to, I'm going to go to bat for you. Maybe I love you. You know this is just like. This was probably not an intern. It's probably not an intern. Probably a full time employee. And it had to. In your experience. Yeah. And well, and this is my question though. If it had to clear as you're suggesting multiple levels before getting there, did they fuck up? Or is this how TSN views the CFL right now? You are behind some of these things. We don't even have the rights for. Right? Do all my honest opinions? Of course I did. No, bullshit is pleased. Okay.

6:08I can't even bullshit. Try for like a split second. I was like, nah, I got nothing. I more shocked at the F1 oversight. Wow. If I'm being totally honest. And my like, yeah, the CFL kickoff is a big deal. And like, you are the national broadcast partner. And that's a big deal. Don't get me wrong. Right. But in terms of hot commodities for viewership, I would be very interested to see the. That's the Stanley Cup playoffs and the Toronto Blue Jays on here. And those belong to your competitive. You're not going to show a single one of those. That is interesting. No, and a totally fair point. Like, sure they're important parts of this time of year in sports, but you're not going to show them. Absolutely. I would just, just from a pure viewership standpoint, I'd be very interested to see how many, what viewership is like at the F1 on TSM. Like, at the CFL. Yeah. Now, and I say that, and I don't know how much I'm allowed to say. So I'm going to choose my words carefully. Not that I'm like special or anything.

7:09No, but like, I was very lucky during my time where I'd like to have access to some of the TV numbers or stuff like that. And like, the CFL does very well for TSM. And it's all truck consistent. I don't know if they release a lot of that information, but it's, it is like you can set your watch to viewership of the CFL in this country on TSM. And the CFL over the summer is the only thing. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yep. A hundred percent. While they're trying to go head to head with the Blue Jays every night. A hundred percent. So like, it's, I just be curious to see the numbers for the other things to kind of understand. But like, I have, I have two takes on this. One's a super hot take. And his little conspiracy theory ish. And the other's just nothing take. So I'll give you a start super hot. Can we go super hot for it? My super hot one is like, you're talking about it. Hmm. Did they? It's a, it's a mundane graphic that isn't really going to dry. It's like, hey, look at all the things we have coming up. Like, how much engagement is that going to drive? And I would happily buy into that.

8:10Look, we got everybody talking about the CFL. I look, everyone's like, they deleted the tweet. No. Which tells me, like, actually, delete the tweet. That is the ultimate surrender. Right? Like, oh, you got it. No. That is the most Canadian thing ever where you just can't get out of your own way. I would let it out. Once it's out there, let everyone. Who cares? People are talking about it. So that would be one. Yeah. Two, my other take on this, and we were talking off mic is, it is not, like, look, it's TSN's responsibility to promote the games that they're broadcasting, which is awful. But like, it's their responsibility or they're prerogative, I should say. To promote the CFL games that they're broadcasting. This I believe is the final year, I believe. Of the contract. I believe. Between the TSN. I believe. Yeah. And so, and like I alluded to earlier, like, you could set your watch to those ratings.

9:11To Scott's one, the whole province is watching. 100%. Like, you know what you're going to get per program. Right. So if the league itself isn't going out of its way to break into new audiences, to promote the game in this country, to do anything to really help itself out, why is it TSN's responsibility to promote the league? If they know, hey, we can send $0 into this season of the CFL and X amount of hundreds of thousands of people are going to tune in and watch. Or we can spend $150,000 on this, this, and this to promote to watch the CFL on their network and get the exact same viewership. When the league isn't really doing anything and certainly isn't going dollar for dollar and in terms of investing and marketing dollars, why would you? Or why would you, like, you know you're going to get the viewership. Yeah. And the league isn't really pushing itself.

10:12It's not capitalizing off of a lot of opportunities that are coming up. No. Good batter otherwise. So why is the Onus on TSN to make up for the shortfalls of the league? That's what I struggle with understanding. It's very easy to say. I don't know what Onus is on them. But if you want to make money off this. But they are making money. TSN I mean. Yeah, they're making money. But if you want to, let me rephrase and maximize your potential return on investment, is it so hard to, and I don't want to harp on this thing, but to just throw the CFL logo on this little banner you've put out. No, so it's, it's, like, it, that's the part that makes me go. If I'm the CFL, even my own national partner doesn't think I, and I don't know, this is the thing I asked Rob, I'll ask you, like, is it just this one little oversight and, you know, what, to hell with it? Or if I'm the CFL, do we go,

11:13I'm probably going to have a hard time getting the CV contract done. If this is the level of priority that TSN sends me out. That's totally fair conversation. So I think it's, it's two part one. I did not know they deleted the tweet. Which then is like, oh, some stuff. You surrendered. Yeah, yeah, someone fucked up. Or they freaked out and like, and I, no, I won't consider your other point though that was like, once it's out there, even if it, like I love, I would love it if it was intentional and you create the CFL underdog audience that swells up from beneath and go, I don't think that's what happened. But once it is out there that way, let it ride, Matt, let it roll. Let it roll. We're March. This happened a few days ago, end of February. How many people are talking about the CFL? Everybody talking about the CFL. Oh, TSN didn't do this, TSN didn't do this. When's the kickoff date? Well, the kickoff dates this date. I mean, call me crazy. How many people are talking about exact details of when the first kickoff for a CFL game in February is? Yes, I'm unintentionally omitted from a graphic.

12:14Right. Would I have deleted the graphic? No. To your point, ride it out, ride it out. Because now it seems like a mistake. And it might have been a mistake. It might have been intentional. Like, I don't know. Sure. But my gut feeling is. The Twitter timeline is 36 hours. Don't delete the tweet people beyond the next thing the next day. It's just that. It's dumb. I would have let it ride. Either way, either way. I find it interesting for a few reasons. I'm always, I shouldn't say always. I'm more likely to side with TSN, just from a business standpoint on a lot of these things with my exposure to the league, where the teams, and I'm not casting shade. The teams do more than the league due to promote the league. Yeah. I feel very comfortable saying that. And I think it's quantifiable. And so when people are like, well, TSN's not doing this and TSN. I would just ask, what is the league doing? The TSN is keeping the lights on at the CFL.

13:15They paid $130 million for broadcasting rates. Who's paying that? Who else is paying that? If TSN goes, yeah, you know what? We're not sure about next year. Who's going to step up and pay that same amount of money for broadcast rates for the CFL? And I know that, man. I personally do not believe it's out there. My feeling. And I think, like I argued with Rob about this on Monday, it ain't sportsnet. They have the blue jays. The only reason you would do it, if your Rogers is to put a bullet in Bell Media. It was like, yeah, that would be a move. But you've got the jays every night. Yeah. And so what does it do for you on sportsnet to have whatever. So I cat's red blacks on a Thursday night when the jays are playing the red socks. Four, three, three, four years ago, if you asked me, hey, what do you think the solution to this problem is? And I mean, I'm no more educated than that I am now,

14:17just to be clear. But it's less encumbered. It's break it up and say, do the NFL does give X amount of games to CBC, give X amount of games to TSN, give X amount of games to CTV, which is, frankly, how it used to work and how it used to work. And you have to think of overall exposure to the youngest audience that will grow your brand over the longest term. And the fact of the matter is, is that's not really what the focus of the league is. The league is perpetually old white centric. And it's, well, they got TSS, so they're going to, sadly, it's almost me too. And it's not thinking about growing youth. And I, again, I'm not, I have friends who work for the CFL. So I'm not trying to be an asshole here. But the fact of the matter is, is the NFL is coming into this country and starting flag football projects and high school football projects.

15:17And Olympic adjacent projects, and you could be like, well, they got NFL money. Sure. But what effort have you made to try and do anything of the sort on any sort of similar level? Right. And that's where, you know, I am scared to see the CFL go away. Like, I would never wanted you. I'm not, like, not hot take, hot take. I like the CFL game better than, sure. NFL football, in terms of rule set. But I'll watch any NFL football game when it's on. I will not watch any CFL football game when it's on. I need to like the teams and the players and be interested in investing. Or there's got to be stakes of some kind of mistakes of some sort, whereas like, I don't have that with the NFL. I know from watching an NFL game, I know the production quality is going to be the best of the best and the play, the gameplay is going to be the best of the best. And those are very real things that I don't think

16:17are openly discussed or people are scared to discuss as it pertains to the CFL. And I do think they are, whoever, I'm such an asshole, I don't remember his name, but the gentleman who's running the CFL now, a new commissioner, who is former head of belt media. Yeah, like, so like way to branch out, guys. And that adds a whole other element to like what that new re-up of the TV contract looks like. Because then you, we talk about breaking it up and it's like, well, look who they just installed. So maybe, maybe not. But like, he's in breaking it up between TSN and CTV, just last pocket to right pocket. For sure, and I can't imagine, like I said, I can't imagine Rodgers gives a shit. No, and so you're running out of people to bid. Yeah, and to go to, like I said, if it's not Amazon Prime or Craver. Well, and to go to Netflix. So the point I tried to make and I've failed to, because I distracted myself, it's all about accessibility. I think one of the smartest things MLB did in the recent years is put stuff on YouTube.

17:18You got a game a week on YouTube. Spring training on YouTube. And it's like, yeah, PWHL, same game. It's like, yeah, don't put it behind a paywall and make it as stupid accessible at five-year-old could watch your game if they wanted to. If you handed, like if I handed, let's pretend my kids are five again. Let's not. But if they were, I hand myself on over and open YouTube and put on an NFL game or a CFL game, and all they know how to do is open YouTube and type in CFL, and there's a game. That's how easy it needs to be. Well, that's probably how you and I found football, man. Flipping around on regular television 100 years ago. Oh, look, there's bills versus patriots or whatever else. It was just there. You stumbled across it. People don't stumble across things anymore. Can we have, okay, we're for sure, need three parts. We're gonna have a whole CFL box. Let's dive into this, because I would like your opinion, because I have opinions on this, and I would love to hear your take on this.

18:18I think a larger aspect of this that is not discussed as much. I know it's discussed before people fucking, the four people who are still listening, fucking jump on me and be like, I'm talking about this on Twitter all the time. When you were growing up, who's your favorite football player? Hmm. And if, okay, okay, okay. I know that's probably not what you wanted me to go, but that's, no, no, that's totally fine. I get a good pinball story. We didn't even need to be on camera, we could be on camera. But how old were you? When you first had like, Yeah, not, I probably was already 10 or 11 or 12. Like football wasn't high on my list. I got into it a little later. How did you, how did you become a fan of pinball? What was the entomology of that? The Argos were on CBC most weekends. Who turned on CBC? Actually, I think when we were camping most weekends, which is the only channel we got on CBC, because we were boating, we camped, we had a little cottage, no cable. Even at home, we had no cable. Like, so you just flipped around the TV.

19:21Hey, football's on. It took me a little while as a kid who didn't know sports well to figure out that, oh, that feel like this league is different than that league, right? In terms of the NFL and the CFL. And it was no more complicated than, oh, I live near Toronto. Like, I didn't understand the leagues yet and one was better, worse than the other, but this is my hometown. And I can get into that. I'm supposed to cheer for Toronto, not Buffalo, not Miami, not Denver. These teams will never play each other. I did not yet know, but I would eventually figure it out. Okay, so the CBC man, it was right there. Stumble across. Accessibility. So accessibility is a huge piece of that puzzle, which, to see if I was lacking, currently, if you don't have to, you don't have accessibility. So right off the bat, that stumbled upon, well, I stumbled upon, well, if you don't have TSN, you're not stumbling upon anything. But does anyone still stumble upon, like, is that just not the way we do it anymore? So I think it's kind of like a, what's the phrase, too many beers in,

20:23like you lead a horse to water? Yeah. Like, I think that's kind of the day and age that we live in where it's like, and I hate myself for saying this. But like, that's where you have to lean on people where it's like, well, who's influencing your key demographics? Yeah. And how are you tapping into? How does Mr. Beast attend a tie-cats game this year? Exactly. Yep. Exactly. And then how do you make that tie-cats game accessible to as many people as humanly fucking possible? Because as soon as you go, oh my god, we got Mr. Beast. Oh my god, that's amazing. And as subscribers, well, how do we watch that? Or in the US, and you need the ESCM plus that are like, or like sports plus, exactly. Like, you need to jump in. And it's like, no, thanks. Yeah. And it's like, no, click on the slinking, you can watch the game, right? That's what it needs to be. And I understand that is a very one-sided look at it. And maybe not the most business oriented look because it's like, well, yeah, but we need to make money and we need to put things behind paywalls.

21:24And this is how TV, I get all that. I genuinely do. But because you're not stumbling across it through my ideas either of Netflix or Amazon Prime. But that's also where the lead needs to be in dating fucking people with content. Where it's like telling player stories, telling league stories, like flashmack. Man, remember one brilliant, but smelly fuck doing a program where a bunch of the red blacks unveiled their schedule eating chicken wings. That was a great broadcast. As if you said smelly fuck. Two episodes in a row. She's so surprised. I will not sleep tonight. No. That stuff was fun though. It was just something, let's do it this way. Here's our schedule. Throw it up on YouTube. Here's some guys eating hot wings and talking about who we're playing in a weeknight. I am still super proud of that. That was awesome. I was very pleased with myself and that's our one. That was just a fun day. But yeah, like that's, you need, it's a 24, seven business and you need to act as such.

22:25And right now, that's just not how it's handled. And you can be like, well, we don't have the money. And it's like, well, then you can't have the problems. You know what I mean? Complain, well, no one's watching us. Well, are you investing money? Well, we don't have the money. It's like, well, then I don't know what the fuck can tell you. Invest the money or don't. Shoulder get off the pot. At the end of the day, do you expect that in the 2027 season, TSN will still be the sole broadcaster of the CFL? So that's a really tough question. Do I think they will? Probably, do I want them to be? No. And only because I'm cool if they say bell media. That's fine. I just want the cause. Because they have moved some games on to CTP. So that is, that was a good move. That was a great idea. It was so fucking smart. And like, there are a lot of it. So when I say TSN, I've blown the question. It's that bell media. Ownership, yeah, bell media games are on TSN slash CTP. Yeah, and I was so pumped to see that because that's something that, not that I have any fucking dog in this race or anything, but I've been pretty openly advocating for almost

23:27since I started with the CFL, where it's just like, you have to put the gray cup on CTP. You have to maximize the amount of eyeballs that can be on that fucking game because that's best on best. If you're not a media person, one's a pay cable station, one's just free on the internet. It's on any wall. That's, no, that's, you know. And so it has to be that way. I think if you really want to maximize your viewership, it has to be that way. I would love to see it again, kind of going back to like accessibility. If you had had a fucking, I watched The Olympics on CBC Jim. Whatever you want, man. I would, I was seven a.m. And here's a downhill ski race good after. All right, I'm in like, men's gold medal game. Me and my boss, excuse me, are driving to Kingston and we streamed the game in the truck. Yeah. Maybe, maybe not. I don't know if that's illegal, but like, like I was watching it, he was driving, just be abundantly clear. But like, no problems. I literally just downloaded the app

24:27and that was it. I was able to watch for you shit on the go as frictionless as humanly possible, which is how things need to be in 2026. And the league needs to realize this. And maybe they are first created user name in a password, first television. Just give me the game you asshole. Just watch the fucking game. Make this as easy as humanly possible because if you don't, someone else will. And I just think there needs to be a renewed approach and there just needs to be 10 times the amount of content that is coming out of the league, needs to come out of the league. If they have expectations to achieve a certain level of recognition or viewership or revenue for that matter, because at the end of the day, I don't want to speak at a term and I probably just maybe not speak, but like, it's a very gate driven. Yeah, of course. League from a revenue standpoint and like that's not a thing in the NFL. Like if you're trying to follow the NFL model, it's like, you have a million streams of revenue. Before they sell ticket one,

25:28they're already making money. A hundred percent. And so this is, fuck, I am terrible at this. But what I eventually, the point I was eventually trying to get to with you is pinball. Yeah. How long do you play for the Argos? Oh, really wasn't that long. Five or six years? Five or six years. And you say that wasn't that long? Well, okay. No, no, but some guys are career, Argos or career, whatever, right? Rough riders. Okay. Right now. But hit me in that window when I was first forming my allegiances and I guess then he stayed forever, which didn't hurt, but. For sure. And same, same. I grew up, I'm sorry. How old are you? Does it matter? We're close. Slightly over 40. Okay. And I'm slightly, I'm about to be 40. Yeah, okay. I'm about to be 40. So we're, we're still not quite able and like, and ready. No, so the reason I ask is like,

26:30and I'll use the red blocks as an example, just because I'm the closest to it, and it's the easiest for me. Lorenzo Maldon. Yeah. Was with the team for four seasons? Banner player. Literal banner on the side of the CAA building on the stadium. Delt before the end of the last season. Oh, I don't want to say anything out of pocket now. So I'm like, let me get another 10% beer. Yeah, I don't know. Dominic Rimes. I'm trying to think, I need your help to fill the blanks now. We've had too many beers, but there are, Richie Leon is a free agent. Yeah. We are March 3rd. March 3rd. No, can we, sorry, I just blew up your spot. We're not March 3rd. It's March 5th. We're March 11th. Or whatever. We're next to the A's. Yeah, yeah.

27:31No, but he's a free agent. He's one of the best punters this team has ever had. One of the best punters in the league. Consistently over the last, however many seasons, he's a free agent. If you're a fan, who's Jersey are you buying? Devonti Deadman just got Delt. Place for the allowats now. Ugh. I know. That's gross. You got Caleb Evans, place for the allowats. You got, if you were, if you're asking me, if I was walking into the red black shop tomorrow to buy a Jersey, this is why you're the host. It might be Brad Sinoffley. Okay. See, so let's have a team versus as a leaf guy whose team has been terrible forever. Yeah. You buy a few mergers. You buy Wendell Clark. You buy Henry Burris. You buy Brad Sinoffley. That's not going to go stay along me. That's not. Sure. Credit, credit, credit, credit, you buy Lewis War Jersey. Right. So you protect yourself. Why not buying somebody who's going to get Delt in week six

28:32because you're off to another. Exactly. So my fucking start. Yes. So yeah. No, no, no, no. You are taking it as a million times better than I was trying to. So you buy the alphegers. So exactly. So as a fan, and as a business, separately, as a business, how do you rectify that? How do you go to a fan base who's too scared to invest in your current team and say, no, no, trust us. Like we got this, but they won't buy your jerseys because they're like, ah, I don't know if you're going to keep this guy. Right. Are you going to trade this guy next year? Like, how do you run a business that way? Now times that by every team in the league for the most part. Yeah. How do you effectively run, how do you run a league that way? You know what I mean? Jersey sales, I'm sure, would be significantly better. Dude, you're sitting here and looking at a Red Blacks jersey with a number 15 talking audio on it. Because that was safer than anything else that I could do. And it would sit nice in the studio and it would hang up. But it was safer than putting a player name on it.

29:35Yeah, for sure. I, you know what, it's funny. I only own one Red Blacks player's jersey, Game Warn. And I will give you, I will donate $500 to charity. If you can guess what player I have. And maybe I sound like more like an asshole by saying that because there's no way you're going to guess it. Game Warn. Yep. I'm going to say, this is so fucking pissed if you guess it. Oh, I'm going to say, he left in 20. I was going to say Dominic Davis. No, but I love him to death. Well, I think I knew that about it. Like I think I'd heard you speak well of him before. Yeah, I think he, I knew it wasn't going to be like,

30:38no, Jeremy, I'm a soulie or something. I just like, I know you're my husband, I'm being said, but I thought that was way too obvious. You wouldn't have been like, I would have been very obvious. Yeah, yeah. Who is it? Hunter Stewart. Okay. In a thousand years, I wasn't exactly. Yeah, I just do like guys guy first off, but like so underrated for work ethic in my opinion. And like obviously I get exposure a lot more than in terms of what type of people they are. Exactly. One of the most lovely people to deal with, but like low key, one of the hardest working dudes, one of the biggest dudes, I remember fucking like, I think it was 23, the going into the 23 season. Guys like I'm guessing, but like six, seven. I don't know how much it weighs, but like worked all off season, stayed in auto, worked all off season, and had a six pack.

31:39Now imagine someone who's that tall with a fucking six pack. He was just like working his balls off to be the best he could possibly be. And that like, for whatever reason, like that really stuck with me. That like every time I was in the facility, that he was there. So was that mindset I really tapped into. So yeah, like one of his jerseys came up in our office. I were like, hey, like this is available. And I was like immediately like, yes, I would like that one, please. Thank you. I will take that however much like I don't care. Like that's my guy. Like there was just something about his work ethic and just work ethic divided with being like, just a good human being. And I was like, yes, all that to say, if you were to buy red black jerseys today, or our ghost jerseys, if you buy a Chad Kelly jersey, we're gonna have that conversation. That's the whole fucking. If you buy a Nick Arbuckle jersey, I will high five the shit out of you because Nick Arbuckle is a gem of a human being. I've heard that. And I know somebody's taking care of his dog or did take care of his dog for a long time. That's true. Yeah. I forgot about that.

32:39I know what you're saying. Yes. The star power doesn't last long enough or isn't projected strong enough. And whose fault is that? It's a great question, Matt. Who's not TSN's fault? That. It's not TSN's fault. It's not TSN's fault. Nope. You gotta have a star. You gotta have a, look, I got a couple little guys in my life who do genuinely watch Red Blacks games all the time. And that's awesome. And for a while, they asked the same silly questions I did about when does Ottawa play Patrick Mahomes? Like, nah. It's probably not soon. I don't think anyone wants to see that. Right. But they love the Red Blacks. Of course. And yet, when the Jays got hot, they were asking me about Vladie, right? We mark it. Yeah. Yeah. Right? 100%. We know who Vladimir Guerrero is. We know who Bulba Shet is. Yeah. CFL's not doing that. Nope. And that's your competition through the summer in Canada. We run, we run, we run new era ads for CFL merch

33:42with that CFL players. Yeah. Explain that to me. And a off camera. I will happily explain that to you. But it's just like, what are we doing? You can't tease stuff on the show to talk to me on the show. Sure again, because the people, the four people who are listening, two of them know exactly what I'm talking about. Like fuck, yeah, that's the thing. Yeah. Um, if you were to name top five Red Blacks, star power right now. Like current? No, no, no, just all time Red Blacks. All time Red Blacks, not Rough Riders. Red Blacks. Henry Burr's. Yeah. Brad Snoppily. Yeah. And everything after that for me is a step down, but we can have now some... You're gonna go modern? I don't know. See? Okay. That's what I'm saying, though. You can't go too deep and then have a drop off. That's not the way modern sports leagues should run. I'm with you. I'm with you, 100%. And there's a lot of guys out there. I don't know. High tower? What's that guy doing? Like, can I get that seriously anymore? Yeah.

34:42But these aren't... So you've named two and you're scared to name another three. Well, I can go back, right? You can do the Miracle on Bank Street. Yeah. Right. Which I fully support. Yeah. I don't know. This is what I mean, though. This is the league problem. Is this... And I agree with you. But the red blacks are a young franchise. Like, if you asked a tie-cats fan, they go Danny McManus, you know, good call man. Yeah, for sweet drop. Like, you can do that across the league. Warren Moon, if you wanna go back. That's hard. Casey Printers out in B.C. Zach, you know what I'm saying, though, like, I do think there's a certain amount of, okay, this kid got into the league at 15, who is the best player on his favorite team at 15. The red blacks haven't had quite as much time to build up that Anthony Calvio type of... A great poll, by the way. Right. That is a...

35:43Ben Cousin, right? Like, these guys are... Yep. The red blacks need a little bit of time, but you would have a better handle than I do on how big of a problem this is league-wide versus Ottawa-specific. I don't know of a better handle. It's just more observation, if that. But like, again, going back to your pinball thing, it's like rocketage mail. Yeah. And even... Well, Flutey. It was only there like three, four years in Toronto. He's a legend in Toronto. And Calgary. And Calgary. I still have a game program from when my dad went to a game. I would have been like six, and it was the stamps versus the tie-cats, and I still have the game program with Flutey on the cover. Right. The game programs were a thing. I have that in my house, and it's like, I've never gotten rid of that. I have a box of Flutey flakes. Unopened block boxes. No way. 100%. Send a picture of that shit, man, for the IG here for TC. And it's like... But he, to your point, he barely played in league. He played for two teams. And that's, or three.

36:43Wasn't he with BC for a while, too? I don't want to talk shit. Wasn't he BC Calgary? I don't remember if it was BC, but he definitely had one other stop. Can we fact-check this in real time? Sure. I don't want to fucking talk this whole. But my point is, is... Chair and Flutey was around for a while. He's a tie-cat. Yes, he was. If it never got quite the same love. But my question is, is like, what are we not doing now? BC Lions, Calgary, Stanford, Chicago. There you go. Thank you. Thank you. It's what's changed, that we don't... Why aren't we talking about the journey of Nick Arbuckle? Like, I look at Nick Arbuckle as an incredibly marketable human being. Just as an example. Like, as an incredibly marketable human being. And like, no, it's, well, when's Chad coming back? First off, fuck that guy. Yep. And I'm happy to go on record to saying that, but fuck that guy. Like, why is this even a conversation? And the fact that it is a conversation, that's like the problem number one. Problem number one, why are we promoting this guy?

37:44But don't we need a Nick Arbuckle story that gets to starter territory? But you have Nick Arbuckle going to the great cup. I know. But what more do you want? You're right. This year, that does work. And even that, the way I phrase that, sounds so limiting. Yeah, fine, I guess. No, he wins a championship. What the fuck you want from the guy, right? He's done his part. And he did have, but I think there are so many guys that feel transient, either across the league. Or I remember, man, this is before the pandemic. That's all I can give you in terms of timeline. Yeah. The red blacks were so decimated at running back that they pulled a guy out of a car dealership down in Florida to come back and play that day. That's, is that true? Yes, that is absolutely factual. We need a guy today. He did play in the CFL for a year as somebody's back up. And we're like, hey, can you be here tomorrow? I think we need to do a documentary about that.

38:44He had left the league and was retired to sell cars in like Jacksonville or some shit. Of course. And we're like, uh, got a contract waiting for you to, if you can get here by tomorrow night. Oh my god. That's, and this is one of the things that, you know, I, I did sort of say to you off mic is sometimes I think the problem with TSN and it's not a TSN problem is that we're giving you an incredibly professional, beautiful broadcast of what can sometimes be kind of a mess. And you and I, we love that mess. Yeah. It's a great mess. Yeah. But sometimes you don't, and sometimes it's gameplay specific like, oh, if we didn't have that in HD, that'd be better right now because the ref just made a brutal call on it, right? And there are other things too. And do you be abundantly clear? Like when we're having this conversation, it's, it's a constructive criticism set out of love, man. Out of love. Yes. And I, I mean that with my whole ass heart. Yeah. Is like, I love this league.

39:44I love the players. I love the rule sets. And I don't know how many other shows in this marker are having this conversation right now. Also very, we are having it because we love it and we want it to work. Yeah. 100%. I, I, and I'll use TD as an example. You can use, um, most of the most impersonal stadium as an example as well. It's like, it's lit worse than high school stadium. Right. Has it look on television? Right. You think TSN wants to pump? When are you going to have to feel that to 4K? Yeah. Can't do it, man. Sorry. But like, you don't want to know what that's going to look like. But for real, like you think TSN wants to pump the airways full of clips from TD place, which is lit worse than an American high school. Yeah. You can't see the end zones because it's two stops darker than midfield because they don't have any lights pointing at the end zone. Right. And that's not a TSN problem. Nope. That's what I'm saying. TSN is giving you a high quality broadcast of, I'm sorry, a minor league product at times. Minor league facility sauce.

40:45That's a better phrasing. Yeah, yeah. The athletes are incredible. Oh, yeah. So the league is not providing you venues and situations that warrant the quality of broadcast. 100%. And I would say like the rules that definitely dictates the type of play you see, but the level of play you see within is high. I mean, like, and I've had this conversation a million times with a bunch of friends and colleagues and stuff like that is like, when you take, oh, well, you know, this guy's in the CFL and this guy's in the NFL. It's like, that can be like a tenth of a second on a 40. And it's like, for sure, like that guy who made the NFL is the best of the best of the best. But it's like, there's still in the 1% of athletes in the world. But like, sometimes I think it's as much about media who just don't want to talk about the CFL as much depth as we know who the second line center is of the Ottawa 67s. And we know who's gonna go fifth overall in the NHL draft this year.

41:45We know about what Canadians are exceeding in the upcoming March madness, right? And NCAA basketball. Why aren't we giving, like, there's a certain amount of onus I think that falls on Canadian media to help not necessarily boost them because we should hold it up, but at least tell the stories. I think that's a fair question. My only pushback would be, again, is like, is the league telling those stories? No, and that's a great, I think you and I have beat them over the head enough to suggest they're not. No, but again, it's, I just, I look at it every day. But do we ask the NHL to tell the story of Gavin McKenna about to be drafted top three in the NHL draft? Or do we just know because other people are telling this story? And that's a totally fair question. My caveat there would be like the NHL as a brand and as a whole has created enough return on investment for media outlets to make it worthwhile telling.

42:45Whereas the CFL has not done that. The CFL has not proven itself a hot enough commodity to be like, hey, am I gonna pay a journalist $40 an hour to write a story about this guy that 50 people are gonna read and no one's gonna care about. And that when I publish it, the league won't even cover it. And when the league signs him, or someone in the league signs him, the league won't push him. And the league's not gonna make him a star. So like you can already play out the entire thing. To be like, why am I even gonna make this initial investment when there's gonna be no payoff ever eventually? Does that make sense? Yeah. So that's kind of how I view it. Where it's just like everything kind of needs to be mutually supported. And like I don't know what levels of communication are between the league and the broadcaster. Very out of that whole realm. And I don't think we're all about to find out. Yeah, for sure. A lot of people thought if there was gonna be an extension between TSN and the CFL, we'd heard it by now. And I'm not suggesting there won't be with the fact that it's not done yet is noteworthy. But nothing else.

43:46I agree. And again, like not to be the dead horse. I think it's just gonna boil down to like, it has to be accessible. It has to be as accessible to me and you as it is to a five year old in order to grow the sport on some level, whether that's one game a week or one game every other week. You need to be able to stumble across it. And if you're just going to gatekeep and put everything behind paywalls and say, well, you get the break up. You're fucked. And it's not gonna change and you're gonna keep being fucked. And if you're not gonna produce engaging content and like they have a great content team. This is nothing to do with the content team. It's more of a marketing strategy standpoint. If you are not constantly pushing the best players in the league throughout the entire season and the entire off season to get people excited, then you're fucked. And that's that is just the way it is. And unless you're willing to change, then you're fucked.

44:47Well, the league dies when I did it. Right. It's like you're fine on the young end of CFL fans. Certainly you are. Yeah, 100%. So you're prepared to ride this out until... That's just it. And not to, and I do mean this sincerely, but there does need to be, and a lot of, I'm prefacing my own fucking soundbite, but like a lot of teams have made the adjustment, which is very smart. They're all run by very smart people. But like I remember before I worked for the Red Blacks. And so it was just, it would have been 2019. I wanted to take my son to a Red Blacks game. I was like, we had like a Saturday afternoon, just him and I, and I was like, oh, fuck it. I'll just take him to a Red Blacks game. Sure. It was $200. And the team was like one in eight. Yeah. And it's like, for not even green seats, and it's like plus, concession, like, why in like a hot dog? And he's not going to last the whole game. Right. And so it's like, well, why the fuck am I going to spend that? Now, great. And again, to be clear, a lot of teams

45:49have adjusted their ticket prices. They made like family packages like certain seating and it's a little more accessible, but it's still an expensive adventure. Yeah. So you kind of need to take that into consideration. And again, a lot of teams auto included have done that, but that is another part of it too, where it's like, all right, you see the game on YouTube? You want to go see it in real life? Great, cool. Hey, yeah, it's super accessible. This is how we do it. This was a lot of PWHL. Yes, this whole thing of, yeah, you know, the team's not in that great, but man, TD Place on Friday nights, a fun place to be, to wear it off, man, people are done. People are done paying to go down and just, because it's the place to be, it's becoming less and less the place to be too. You've got to win some fucking football games. And I can't, I can't speak to that because I haven't been to a game in over a year. We're going this year though, right? You and me, we're going to go down. I would be down. Yeah. We pick, I have it, is the schedule out? I haven't even looked. It is out. And I'm not even trying to be like, I'm not saying the deck, but like I, since you're really just standing on the bridge, drink a beer and talk to passer by kind of guy,

46:51more than that. I would be potentially down in this frame. Well, eventually. With the log cabin. Yeah, I haven't done that yet. I haven't done that, but here's, you know what? We can show love to our boy, Maddie K, who normally holds that place down, right? During the season. My pregame hug. This is it. I used to go by that tent. There you go. Everything in the pregame of Maddie K. Yeah. Yeah, log cabin. So I'd be down. So you're the only thing that, as I'm saying this, I'm like, okay, but wait. Are you allowed on the premises? No. That's a great question. It's a great, after this fight, I got to know. TBD, there's no screen. So when it's at the opposite end of the field, you can turn around from the field and watch the screen from that kind of fucked up. I would maybe be open. I don't remember what it's called. The, was the legacy lounge? The opposite end zone. Whatever that is. Maybe I normally just stand on the bridge of both that drink up here. Honestly, that might be the screen from there.

47:52That might be the move. That might be the move. But yeah, I've never, I've never got to watch a Red Blacks game. So I would definitely be down to get drunk at a Red Blacks game. Yeah, sure. Behind the TCA, you can shoot and produce us one time special. That'd be so funny. That'd be so funny. Oh, guys, yeah. So yelling at you. You know what? We don't buy tickets until we see how the season starts. After week four. Okay. They are two and two or better or we don't buy tickets. What, how do you feel about this season? I'm asking you, yeah. We haven't discussed this. I told you, I'm prepared to wait till week four. Yeah. Sorry, you know what? You did just, I don't know, man. I do like the management hire. I like Ryan Dinwitty. I think that was, I do like the idea that they've kept Birky around, even if it means moving him into a slightly different position. I think that was sketchy as hell in terms of how they made that hire happen.

48:53Like Birky's still running the show and Dinwitty's got a new title. But that's something that happens in sports. But you can't hire someone else's coach to be your coach. You have to promote him. So yeah, you promote your own guy to clear some space and whatever. I'm happy enough with that. People who are smarter than me when it comes to the CFL, which is not a short list. It seemed to be happy largely with the moves the team has made this off season. So I'm prepared to, it's the same hope springs eternal, man. Yeah, at the beginning of every year. All right, let's see how it goes this year. I've been burned a few times before and I'll be honest with you, it's second half of last year in knowing where the red blacks were and what the blue jays were doing at the same time. I'll be over here, man. Like that's where I was at that point. It's tough, that's tough. Yeah, I get that. So I get that. But I think we can find an excuse to get down there and have a couple of years. Maybe drag offly along with this.

49:54I'm super down. I almost texted him to join us. Oh, for tonight. I almost do that on your behalf. But I was like, I mean, I haven't seen Christmas. Security down there, they don't let him in. That's the time. Oh, I'm curious to see what I mean. I'll see what I have. I'm downstairs here into the studio. That's a whole different story, yeah. Touche. I think three-parter? Oh, yeah, for sure. Okay. Is this ended up in all CFL? And that's fine. It was worth covering. What else do we want to wrap up? Hold on, hold on, hold on. Do we have any crazy, where do we think people are going? So Jeremiah Mussoli, let's talk red black stuff. Jeremiah Mussoli, former red black, free agent. Yeah. Richie Leoni, I believe, still free agent. How is he not coming back here? That's the guy that I go. What has he done so wrong for you? Like what is? Dude. So like Jeremiah, God love him and everything he's been through. I kind of get why they're looking to move on a quarterback. Richie Leoni, like, that's the guy. Jeremiah, I look at as someone who you just want

50:55in your quarterback room from like a coaching perspective. Like at almost time, his quarterback coach, from being honest, whether he would take that or not, to be determined, but at least a good person to have in the room, in my opinion. Again, I'm biased as fuck. I just like these guys as human beings. Richie Leoni is the head scratcher, which is like, what? You're good at this. He's still fair. He's not even like he's washed or something when you have to cut me. Yeah. He's like, what are we doing? And it's like, if you break up that special team's unit, again, it's just like, what are we? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I think he should stay. I think you gotta keep. If they haven't resigned him yet, there's a, do they compete for punter? Like, do they have a competition at camp? Not to my knowledge. Like, I mean, I don't know. Like, I did read an article on the three-downation where they're gonna bring someone to have Lou compete with someone. Okay. Now, like, look, again, full disclosure.

51:57Yeah, biases fuck. I am right or die for Lou and Richie. Period. Fuck everyone else. Respectfully, fuck everyone else. Those are my guys. I can't imagine a Red Blacks team where you drop Lewis Ward and Richie Leoni in the same season and expect to not have insane blowback from your fan base. And I know roster positions are not subject to that. But at the end of the day, these teams are a business. And you have to think about what banners, again, going to Lewis Ward, banners are hanging up on that CAA building in the fucking end zone. And what Jersey sales have been driving for the last, however many seasons it's been? Yeah. You cut that guy because you're like, wow, this guy is whatever. No, like, fuck that. Like, what are we doing? And that's not non-football business, Josh. I think that's Josh, the video guy who loves those dudes to death talking.

52:59But it's like, But they've let some other prominent names walk out the door of this office. And I get like, change has to happen. If you want to get better, it's tough, right? And like you said, you know these guys personally. And, you know, if he's good in the room and who is less good in the room. They're no less good. I will say, I will say unequivocally. But change is going to happen. When you keep losing, change is going to happen. For sure. And I just not sure this was the position where it was really your problem. Like, that's, yes. Again, this is why you're the host. You put things much quicker than I do. We're just like, what's the root of the problem? We're about to do part three of our conversation. So how much better at this eye? And it's like, man, like, yeah, did they have their best seasons? No, but like, do you drop guys like that? And it's like, man, fucking, I don't know. I just, how much of a fan base is ready for new, everything new, new, new, new, new, new. But then that's, that's a whole other question. Man, we can make this four hours to just see if I'll talk.

54:01But it's like, do you think it's even worse to be at a point where you start cutting, like, legacy players and no one cares when you're listening to the fans? No, not even that. Say, say they get rid of Lou. Say, say they cut Lou after training camps. Say they don't reassign Richie and no one cares. That's death. Well, they won't end in any sport and any franchise in difference is the real end. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. If fans are still showing up and booing and throwing shit at you and pissed off, at least they're still passionate. Yep. Once they're just like, I don't know, whoever hurts. Yeah. It's like, oh, we got Justin Hardy, who's awesome. Yeah. But it's like, uh, yeah. You need people to care. It's just, I do not. And see if it's not a bad spot. I do. Yeah, they are. It doesn't have, it doesn't have to be. But they are, but it doesn't have to stay there. I do not envy the front office of the auto red blacks nor have I for the best fucking five years.

55:02But like, it's, it's like for better or worse, though, everybody I talk to, like yourself, like, awfully, whatever, everybody who knows these people goes disgruntled as employees. Well, but you're sure there's a new pod. I'm gonna start. Oh my God. That's a great idea. But everybody goes, hey, Bob Dice, nicest guy in the fucking world. I have no trouble believing that. But at some point, when the team is good, you're gonna fire the head coach. That's sports, right? Does it mean Bob Dice deserved to be fired or is suddenly a bad person or any? It doesn't mean any of that. It means sports turns over. We get a new leaf. We get a new guy. That's the way it goes, right? And you guys have a personal relationship with them. I don't. I'm just a pissed off fan on my couch going, I throw someone overboard on it. Like, is that rational? It is not. Is that the way sports fans are? Yeah. But it is. I think a lot of people are in the industry are kind of detached from a lot of that mindset insofar as like for my industry,

56:03like there's a running joke where it's like, you haven't been a director until you've been fired. And it's true. Like you're gonna get to a position where it's just like, yeah, we don't want you for this. And you're like, oh, and you're just a number that's gonna get replaced and if you're not moving the needle and you're not making money, it's like, oh, bye. And that's it. And that's sports. And I think every coach I've ever had the pervalette. You know who said it best? The well-spoken stone-cold Steve Austin. I'll have to say Ted Lasso. Go ahead. He made a stone-cold quote. I don't know if it's exactly, but when he retired, he basically described it as, you have to understand, in his business, you are a cog, one gear in the wheel. And when that gear wears out, no different than any other car or machine or, somebody's gonna pull out that spent gear, toss it away and plug in a brand new one. It goes, before me, it was the rock. Before the rock, it was Brad Hart. Before Brad Hart, it was Macho Man. Before Macho Man, it was Hulk-Hote. Like, at some point, this gear's waisted,

57:05chuck it next one up. And it's just that we gotta go, right? The business rolls on without you. And he goes on a personal level. That sucks. That feels really shitty. But when you zoom out, that's just business, right? That's the way it rolls. So I'm still gonna be taking first team snaps in May. Period. That's it. It's you, or me, or the other guy like this. Probably won't be you or me. Fuck, is you a machin? Man. Maybe they beat me there. Fuck. We all want more men. A kid, a kid, a kid. We ended up going in an entire CFL pod. It's been a while since we did that here. I love it though. That means the passion. Dare I say we make this a thing? Is it the beer talking? Oh, it's almost always on this show. The beer talking. Yeah, it's fair. But we'll hit a third parter. Stay tuned. Because we got more to talk about, but somehow. Somehow. We got one more beer in us. I don't know. You and I talked too much. I think you see. Yeah, nope, I think it's great. We will get into some things.

58:05I want to talk some music with you. Yes. We got lots to cover here on one more edition with our buddy Joshua O'Connor. On TCA, stay tuned for that. Make sure you're subscribed over here in this right now. If you're still here right now, and subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcast app. TCA. I got a screamer, make a face. I got a shout, we pay the waste. Spots and rules in the face. TCA. Every damn thing. TCA. Every damn thing. TCA. TCA.