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About this Episode
In a very special classic episode, guest host Lauren joins Anney in Vegas to discuss the impact of the X-Files from shipping, fandom, pantsuits and women in STEM on the 30th anniversary of the show.
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Transcript
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Hey, this is Annie.
And Samantha.
Not much stuff I never told you.
A prediction of I heart you.
And today we are bringing back an interesting one.
I'll get into why it was interesting in a minute.
We have done several episodes about the X-Files on the show.
I have talked about it even in episodes we weren't talking about on the X-Files.
I think we've talked about it with Bridget even.
Yes, we've talked about it with Bridget.
But there was a specific reason you were thinking we should bring this one back, right, Samantha?
It's true.
So if you're all up in the entertainment world news like I am, you may have heard the
news that Ryan Kugler of now centers award winning, like I think it's going to be a historical
level of cinematic features that he has been given the green light to do a reboot of the
X-Files.
I'm very excited about this take, which is really a funny because I did not watch the
X-Files.
I was not a fan.
But according to this news, not only has he started this project, but Jillian Anderson
has also given it her stamp of approval that she actually talked about.
I believe she's read the pilot and is very excited about it.
I think they've already cast a lead for it as well.
So obviously, people are excited.
Yes.
I mean, I mean, included.
I've talked about it before, I'll talk about it in this episode.
I love the X-Files.
I do think it had a resurgence recently where people discovered it, rediscovered it on
streaming services because it came out in 1991 around there and it's had a couple of
movies and stuff as well.
Yeah.
As I've said many times, it was one of my gay awakenings because I had a crush on a lot
of people.
Many were like, oh, that makes, now I know.
Yes.
Exactly.
Now I know.
I like Boulder and I like Scully.
This was also a big start of internet fan fiction, so I salute the show for that.
But yes, the reason I said this was interesting.
The last episode is because Lauren and I, Samantha couldn't go on this work trip to Las
Vegas.
It was her birthday and she had plans.
I kind of personally think you didn't want to go.
Hey.
Originally, I was like, yeah, I'm down.
And then when I heard that after, I was like, I'm good with it.
Y'all are.
I'm glad y'all had fun.
We did have fun.
We did.
But it was a chaotic time.
And Lauren, a very graciously stepped in to be a co-host on this episode when Samantha
was not there.
But we were recording from a small glass box outside of a huge stadium wherein bands
like the Foo Fighters were playing.
And just you could really hear it.
And the point of the cube was that we were recording an episode that people could stop
by and put on soundproof headphones and listen to whatever we were saying as we were recording
it.
So just so you know, even if you hear like snippets of bands in the background, the
point wasn't this cube or soundproof.
The point was the headphones were, but Lauren and I worked shopped a lot of topics before
we did this and she is a huge ex-files fan and so I'm pretty sure that's how we landed
where we landed.
Which is perfect.
Yes.
Absolutely.
And it was, it was a wild time listeners.
But it was a very fun episode, so please enjoy.
Hey, this is Annie and welcome to Steffon Never Told You, a production of I Heart Video.
And today we have a very special recording for you for a couple of reasons.
First off, Samantha is away.
I'm going to talk about it more for in a second, but she is on a birthday trip.
She is better from COVID, but she's on a birthday trip.
But that means that my good friend, Lauren and coworker Lauren, who is on the Save
of Podcast with me, is filling in on what is quite an interesting experience we're having
right now.
We'll talk about it in a second.
But welcome, Lauren to Smenty.
Oh, thank you.
Yes.
Hi.
Hello.
I am so glad to be here in this bizarre circumstance with you.
Thank you.
You stepped up because we got asked to go on this work trip to Las Vegas where we are recording
live from the I Heart Podcast studio powered by Bose at the House of Music, at the I Heart
Radio Music Festival.
And it's like a booth in the middle of a festival.
Oh, the music festival.
So yeah, we have like this cool, just, just, just plexiglass doors, so it feels like an
action figure box.
It does.
So pass away.
It does pass away.
It can just kind of like stare at us and take pictures.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Which makes me as a podcaster who does this in my house with my cat.
Yeah.
Very comfortable.
This is completely natural.
Right.
Right.
Very natural.
I mean, yeah, I'm looking out right now and trying not to think too much about it.
But we are very excited to have you.
Thank you so much for volunteering to talk about this.
And we're going to have fun.
We're going to have fun.
Oh, we certainly are.
If it had been any other topic, I might have been like, you know, you do that one by yourself.
But yes, so we're here for the I Heart Music Festival and we've had a, we've had a good
time.
Oh, yeah.
We've had a good time.
Yeah.
But it's been a whirlwind.
And yes, Samantha is away.
Her birthday is September 26, which happens to be the last of us days.
She always makes fun of me when I point that out.
But that got me thinking like, what could we talk about that would be in that kind of
horror realm?
All right.
I know I don't need an excuse to talk about stuff like that.
Zero percent.
Right.
But I was like, what could it be?
And then I was thinking, what could it be that would fit with you?
And it wouldn't be too much research.
And then I realized it's the 30th anniversary of the ex files.
Oh, which makes me feel very old, but in a really fun way.
Yes.
Well, I'm black for that.
So I was just like, I feel the ex files, and we're going to talk about this, has come
up in so many of our episodes when that wasn't the topic.
That wasn't the case that wasn't going to be looking into because you've done a couple
on purpose.
Like you did one about about scully, like in general, as like a fictional lady human.
And then you did one with Bridget about, yeah, the scully effect and science.
The scully effect.
Yes.
And we will talk about that a little bit, but I, it just kept coming up and I was so intrigued
by that.
I was so interested in why it is that I'm looking into the history of shipping.
And I'm learning about ex files, or I'm looking into the history of fan fiction.
And I'm learning about ex files.
And as your listeners probably know, you're not talking about like ground to air shipping.
No.
Like you're talking about like fan fiction shipping.
Yeah.
Obviously enough.
Samantha did think that's what we were talking about in the shipping, so, Samantha, I love
you.
Oh, that's amazing.
That's so cool.
Oh, geez.
She was like, what are we talking about, ground shit there?
It was like, no.
No, honey.
No.
No.
No.
So I thought it would just be fun when we're here in Las Vegas.
We're in this very interesting setup.
If we could have a conversation about both how this show impacted the internet, because
as I've said a million times, I'll say it again, and this probably, when we're talking
about fan fiction, when we're talking about fan spaces, a lot of that is women, non-binary
people, queer people.
So I think it is, if anyone's like, why is this on a feminist show, I think that that
is enough to be worth talking about.
Yeah.
So the impact of Scully specifically, but I just think it would be fun for you and me
who liked the show, but have different perspectives to discuss at this 30th anniversary.
Yeah.
That's fine.
I'm fine with that.
Yeah.
Excellent.
Excellent.
Also, Samantha made it very clear that we have a book that we're trying to sell.
Oh, yeah.
This is the stuff Mom never told you about.
And there is a bunch of stuff about Scully in there.
Oh, heck yeah.
Tied in.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yes.
Okay.
But all right.
Let's just, I feel like sometimes, do you ever feel this way, Lauren, where you know
something so well, you feel like you don't have to explain it?
Absolutely.
But you're not sure if maybe no one else knows what you're talking about.
Okay.
Yeah.
So I feel that exact way about the ex files.
Okay.
Great.
And so I kind of tried to, I feel like I overcompensate by over explaining it actually.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
I am in the same boat.
But so that being said, I am not going to give a big explainer of the ex files that
would take way too long.
And that's not really what this is about, but I will tell you a brief summary.
Great short.
Perfect.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Let it.
The truth is out there.
The ex files is a sci-fi paranormal television show that debuted in 1993.
And it follows the believer, Foxmolder played by David Duchovny, and the skeptic Dana
Scully played by Jillian Anderson, their FBI agents that are assigned to the ex files,
which is sort of a catch all for weird paranormal and strange cases that pretty much know
and Elsa Molder wants to work on.
Would you add anything else to that description?
Yeah.
His nickname around the FBI campus is spooky, fah, spooky Molder.
So that pretty much tells you what you need to know.
Yeah.
And he's like in a basement, like in the dark.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
It like used to be the copy room.
Yes.
Yeah.
And yeah.
And then Scully gets called, Dana Scully gets called in to basically, like, tattle
on him.
Right.
That's how it starts.
And she's supposed to be the one that's like, mm-hmm, yeah, she is a skeptic.
She is.
She is.
And again, if this was a different episode, we could talk about, she has, doesn't she have
she wears a cross?
She wears a cross.
Yeah.
And there's a whole arc examining her ability.
Absolutely.
Her fate, her fate.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But when this came out, I read a lot of articles that were like, it was not set up
to be successful.
It was, it was coming out of Friday nights, I believe, which is sort of known as the
death swath.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Even the creator, Chris Carter definitely didn't think it was going to get more than one
season.
He was epically unprepared for that, for that happening.
And was kind of like scrambling.
He was like, oh, more, more, really, I wasn't, I, I, this plot arc doesn't make any sense,
really?
Okay.
Sure.
Wow.
Figure yourself.
So if you've ever thought that the myth arc, if you, if you're a watcher of the ex files
and you've ever thought that the myth arc is very silly, that's, that's, that's maybe
the reason why.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, what a fascinating mindset to be like, this is definitely going to fail.
Oh, whoa.
I didn't.
Oh no, what do I do now?
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But one of the interesting things, the X-Wiles came out during third wave feminism, and
there was a lot of stuff happening in this fear.
And one of the interesting things about Scully, who we're going to talk about a lot in this,
is that she was the skeptic.
She was playing against kind of stereotypical gender type.
Yeah.
And according to Chris Carter, who was the creator of the series, he was like, immediately,
he wanted to cast her, but the network was like, they wanted a bomb shell.
And apparently, they wanted Pamela Anderson.
I love this.
I love this alternate universe in which that happened.
No, I mean, okay, first of all, I am personally offended that anyone would say that Jillian
Anderson is not a bomb shell.
Right.
She is a beautiful lady.
There's an image that lives in my mind permanently, and thank the universe for her living there
is the moment in an episode of Hannibal season three, when she is swanning through an Italian
Palazzo, and she is just a divine creature, just absolutely hecking gorgeous.
And I'm just like, so, so A, I'm offended.
But B, yeah, what a gift that the network was that wrong, and that Chris Carter fought
back.
Yeah.
Also, Carter said he didn't want romance between Mulder and Scully.
We are going to be talking about that a lot.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, didn't turn out that way, I guess, but no, and so this is one of the interesting
things.
And we're about to get into this.
I have seen all the ex files.
If you've listened to the other episodes we've done of the ex files, though, my memory's
not great.
Lauren is here.
Who've done?
To help me through a little bit, yeah, well, okay.
So I haven't watched past season six with any regularity.
There are, there are what, nine original seasons, and then they came back and did two shorter
ones, 10, 11, like, 20 years later, two movies, two movies, I saw the first movie I don't
think I ever bothered seeing the second one.
So up through season like six, I have a near, like, photographic memory, because I watched
these episodes over and over and over and over and over again, in a way that only like
an 11-year-old with no job can do, just nothing but like a VHS and nothing else going
on.
Right.
Yeah.
Oh, interesting.
Did you record them?
Oh, yes, I did.
Okay.
Yes, I hecked it.
Okay.
Well, I'm going to pick your brain about this in a second.
Okay.
Yes, I would love to talk about that.
But yes, there was this whole idea of Scully being kind of the more logical skeptical one,
which is new.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And her being right, like her being the scientist, like Mulder is kind of the like impassioned
creative ideas guy, and she's the one going like really Mulder, like, yeah, like she's
the one constantly having to like check him and like be like, could we bring logic to
this conversation literally at all, right?
And him usually going, we know.
But yeah, because like Mulder is an absolute mess, like, and this is known from like the first
episodes, like he is just, Zanie is putting it kindly.
And like he definitely, I think within the first season, he's like observed to have a little
bit of a like porn addiction.
Oh, what?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, wow.
He's like calling sex lines like his, yeah, like he is completely incapable of having a relationship
with a real human woman.
He's frequently through these episodes, the damsel and distress that Scully has to come
save.
And like Scully has her heck in life together, like like she is, I mean, until she meets
Mulder.
And then she kind of gets dragged is Mulder, is Mulder a manic pixie dream boy?
Oh, you're right.
No, no.
Okay.
That, that weren't some thought, uh, you know, something else you said, because you, when
I gave you this assignment, if you kindly stepped up, you have been rewatching some
old episodes.
I have.
I've been watching like all of my favorite, like season one through season three episodes
this week.
And it's, it honestly holds up.
It's okay.
I'm biased.
Like I have no, I have no way to be unbiased about this show because I loved it so hard
and so much when I was a tiny child, like a teenager, which is the same thing.
No offense to any teenagers out there right now.
I was certainly a tiny child during that, that time.
But, uh, but yeah, I feel like it holds up.
I feel like it really like the writing is sharp.
Um, uh, David and Cavaniy and Jillian Andersen are both doing a bang up job.
Um, all of the random side characters are doing interesting things, like they're making
interesting choices and, and some of the, like, yeah, like I was picking and choosing
episodes very carefully, um, do, do, okay, my favorite, my favorite are four that were
written by this one writer, Darren Morgan.
Okay.
My brother of Glen Morgan, who's one of the director producers of the series.
And from the beginning, he was like, please let me write for this show.
This seems so cool.
It's right up my alley.
And Glen was like, nah, um, but if you want to get in this rubber fluke man costume and
sit in a pool for 10 hours to film the fluke man episode, then you can do that.
And he said, yes, and then, and then either later, later in the first season or maybe
in the beginning of the second season, he's got to start writing.
And he wrote my four favorite episodes, uh-huh, which are, uh, Humbug, uh, Jose Cheng's
from Outer Space, War of the Caffer Fages, and, um, Clyde Bruckmann's final repose.
Oh, great titles.
Right?
Yeah.
And they're like, they're like the funny episodes, like they're, they're definitely making
fun of the tropes that X-Files is already set up.
Right.
And, and like, really playing with, like, how silly and funny these situations can be.
Yeah.
And that was another thing he pointed out was that this is a, if you haven't seen it,
and I'm always interested when people discover things late or they're younger and they discover
it after it's long been off the air, that it's a genre show where, like, you get all kinds
of things in it.
Oh, yeah.
It's like, the one is very scary, the one is funny, the one is a cops, like, the satire.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's not, I mean, like, right, like, like, there's usually some kind of supernatural
paranormal kind of element to it.
But other than that, they're really allowed to be either dramatic or funny or right or
horrifying or horrifying in different ways.
Like, you might go body horror one episode and then have a totally different, like, jump
scare kind of horror in another one.
And it's just, like, what, what they're up to.
And I love the idea of that writer's room being so open and so free to be able to do that.
And I think that's part of why it was such a good show.
It was.
And it resonated with a lot of people.
And we're going to talk about that.
And it resonated with me and Lauren.
So I thought we would go into sort of our personal experiences here.
Okay.
Yes.
Yep.
Yep.
Yes.
As I've discussed before several times, I have a very bad track record of not listening
to my parents when they would tell me not to watch something.
And then it turns out they were right.
I probably shouldn't have watched something.
Uh-huh.
It's like they knew you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like they were like, yeah, you shouldn't do that.
So I had been told I shouldn't watch it.
I really wanted to watch it.
And I snuck in and watched it.
And I would like watch it.
I would time it because it would come on.
There would be reruns on some days at like three in and I would like play it really
low when I get close to TV.
And uh, yeah, they found out because I started having nightmares and they're like,
what?
Where is this coming from?
And I was like, like, oh, no.
No reason.
They're like, why did you hear of Killer B?
I was like, who the news?
Uh-huh.
Terrible.
I'm a terrible liar.
Wow.
There is a Killer B episode.
There is.
There is.
There is.
Yeah.
Um, so I was banned for a while, but eventually the ban was lifted.
And I was allowed to watch again.
And I would watch it with my friend of phone.
Oh, yeah, yeah, totally.
Totally.
Yeah.
In the days like cord and phone.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And we would cheat her satellite connection was a little bit better than mine.
And she, I would hear her gasped and I'd be like, what?
And then a second, I'd be like, oh, it was so fun.
It's so cute.
Yeah.
And this is also, I've told the story a million times.
I didn't have the language for it at the time.
This is when I realized probably gay.
Oh, yeah, a little bit, yeah, a little bit.
Yeah, yeah.
That wasn't, um, I didn't realize certainly at the time, right, right?
Like I was 11.
It was 1993.
I didn't have the linguistics for this yet, um, but, uh, but in college,
when I realized I'm by, I was like, oh, Mulder and Scully.
Yeah.
Of course.
Why didn't I see this before?
Yeah.
It's like in retrospect, I'm like, duh.
Like what?
Like fun.
But that was like the one example that I would, like people would be like, what real, like what
I had kind of like my coming out to my friends, I think this is actually the first time I've
ever come out on a podcast.
So welcome.
Welcome to that.
Welcome.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, but right.
Like, like, like, people would be like, what are you talking about?
And I would be like, Mulder and Scully.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it would be like, really?
Yeah.
I don't know, man.
How I feel.
Yeah.
It was, I just remember, because I think I was in seventh grade when I realized, and I was
just watching it.
And again, I didn't have the language for it, but I was just like, I have an interest here.
Something.
I feel the same way about these two characters, um, and we're not alone, because that there
is essay.
There are essays you can find about how, quote, Jillian Anderson, Dana Scully made me
gay, uh, from the 90s, uh, she's jokingly referred to as the gateway lesbian of choice.
She's a good one.
Come on.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
And those pantsuits.
Let's go.
I know.
She made them look very sharp.
Oh, she did.
I have a whole theory about this and we can't get into it.
But I feel like it's sort of the, when people are not conforming to their stereotypical
genders.
Oh, sure.
And that's what people are like.
Like, wait a minute.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But that was my experience.
What about you, Lauren?
Yeah.
So, so, right.
So, so this show started coming out when I was 11 and I was immediately hooked.
My dad didn't want, he, my dad didn't like spooky things, so he never wanted to be
watching it.
I couldn't watch it with him in the room, but which part of why I started videotaping
it.
But yeah, but I was, he's totally like, no, do whatever you want, kid.
But no, I was, I was obsessed.
I was very obsessed.
I was like, it, it was sort of my whole personality for a while, like that level, and it
was very intense.
It was an intense love.
Like, like, to, like, to the point that I definitely, I was, I was on the yearbook staff
if that wasn't already clear to anybody.
And because I was on the yearbook staff, we could have basically whatever we wanted printed
on the front of the book instead of our name.
Oh.
And I deaf, my, my, my senior year yearbook definitely says Lauren the Cuffney on the cover.
Oh, wow.
I'm so happy to have learned this.
I am very embarrassed, but it's okay.
It's just okay.
It's okay.
That's fine.
You know about my first email, Neo's Angel.
Come on.
So I love Neo from the Matrix.
It's all right.
It also Neo and Trinity.
Come on.
It's right there.
Yes.
Oh gosh.
You're so right.
Anyway.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So right.
I kind of fell off watching around a season six to seven.
I think partially because like I went to school and I didn't have a TV access really anymore,
but partially because like the show was going through these changes, like the first movie
had come out between seasons five and six.
And David Cuffney had the show move to LA.
They had been previously filming in Vancouver and just the whole palette of the show changed.
And like a lot of the crew was different.
Like I don't know.
The feel was different.
And then yeah, Ducuffney took some time off and they had different characters in there.
And I was like, I don't care about this.
Which is sad.
Yeah.
Or I mean, it certainly was at the time.
Like it kind of broke my heart.
Yeah.
When you love something so much and then just it either because you don't like the how it's
going anymore, it just move on.
It's sad.
I hear you.
I watched all of it.
I was definitely sad when David Ducuffney left.
Yeah.
I mean, I love Robert Patrick.
Yeah.
Who is who played Agent Doggett, who stepped in as the skeptic to Scully's believer.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Interestingly.
Yes.
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I just want to pick your brain about some plot point stuff because...
Oh gosh.
Okay.
I have a couple specific things because like I said, you have been watching stuff and
I, my memory, even though I've watched it all, I have very specific, clear memories of
certain things.
There's nothing else.
Sure.
Yeah.
But one of the big things I do remember is the pregnancy arc with Scully.
Right.
And I didn't know there was like kind of a real life thing going on as well.
Yeah.
Okay.
So what happened with this was, in season five, it's revealed that Scully had had a baby
while she was alien abducted back in season two during the episode's Dwayne Berry
and Ascension, which are two of the episodes that I just watched.
Yes.
Oh gosh.
Research.
This is like extra nerdy for me.
I love it.
You're in a good place.
But, but right, the whole abduction thing was written in because Jillian Anderson was pregnant
in real life and she had to go have a baby.
And the episodes leading up to this, like her coats keep getting bigger and like her costumes
keep getting below ear and like, yeah, and then, and then she had, she, she goes, she has
the baby.
She's off the show for like maybe like one episode.
And then she comes back and, you know, the plot of this is that she's coming back from
being from having disappeared for a period of time.
And she's like lying in a hospital and I swear to heck, they must have like built up her
boobs to like hide the pregnancy stomach like, and because she's a slight little lady.
Yeah.
And those boobs are huge.
I mean, it could be, it could be her milk and come in.
I'm not sure I wasn't there, but it definitely looked hilarious.
Okay.
Anyway, yeah, so, so, so, so right.
So they bring in this, this, this plot arc in season five.
It turns out that the baby had been adopted out and then I think the child died shortly
after that.
Scully is at the time pronounced infertile, but then definitely has a baby in, in season eight,
sometimes like a miracle baby that I guess has psychic powers.
I didn't watch that part.
I don't know.
I guess it's, I guess it's Mulder's child.
I thought it was, but then I thought it was an alien child.
Maybe it's all of it.
Maybe it's both.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know.
Yeah.
She has that smallpox B alien thing going on so she could have weird DNA in there.
I don't know.
I don't know her life.
That's true.
I actually am fascinated and I want to come back to at some point the depiction of pregnancy
and horror.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
I love this.
I will come back and talk about this literally any time.
I love so much that, like the one admittance that we get from dudes in Hollywood that being
female might suck is all of these horror pregnancy troops.
Yes.
Yes.
Anyway.
In every horror you're like, oh, pregnant?
Oh no.
Oh no.
No.
Or when like a dude is pregnant in whatever way, like an alien or something like that, how
completely horrifying it's horrifying it's for trade.
Yes.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Well, another day.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But something else you mentioned that I didn't pick up on when I was watching this is how
Scully is kind of depicted as a foiled.
There's other women that are kind of.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, okay.
So, like the principle cast of the show is really like Scully and a bunch of dudes.
It's basically all dudes and Scully.
But like there's there's lady characters in like episode to episode and I remember them
all being, if anyone has watched more of it more more recently than me, like check
me if I'm wrong.
But I remember them always being written as like people, like imagine that.
Oh, whoa.
I know.
Right.
You know, like occasionally episodes would be centered around, yeah, like like using speculative
fiction to create metaphors around lady issues of one kind or another, which were probably
a little bit too on the nose.
But yeah, but that's okay.
Certainly one one stand out side random lady character for me is Dr. Bambi Baronbaum.
The name alone.
Who is an entomologist?
Okay.
I'm saying the right one.
It's bugs.
Not words.
Yeah.
Entomologist.
Yes.
Great.
Naturalists.
That's why she has the name Bambi.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
Sure.
But she is this lovely kind of Bucksome woman who molder meets in one of my favorite episodes
where the Cofford pages in season three.
And he has, he has a total crush on her.
He's like goofy.
Hard eyes.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
The whole thing.
The whole thing.
And she's talking about cockroaches and he hates bugs.
And like, so it's very funny.
Like, but like also like scully is like trying to get a hold of him while he's trying to
get his game on.
Oh, no.
And at one point, he just answers the phone and goes like, not now and hangs right back
up.
Oh my goodness.
So when scully finally meets her, like scully is very um, snippy, which I didn't, which
I get was like funny, but I don't appreciate the writing.
If I hate the trope of like ladies hate other ladies, especially when there's a love
interest possibly involved, especially because they were not even in a relationship at that
point, except in my mind.
Right.
Oh my gosh.
Oh my gosh.
We're going to talk about this in the shipping part, but I feel like that's, yeah, that's
what are you doing at that point?
Right.
Yeah.
Come on.
But that was, that was a thing like like that.
I was certainly noticing going back through like they start acting like an old married couple
pretty much immediately, like, and certainly when she gets abducted in season two, like it
is clear that Mulder would kill or die for this lady.
Like he is just completely, it's sort of like a Zara fell in Crowley and, uh, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's so again, Lauren, you have your, I'm so glad you're here because you're bringing
such knowledge to it because I, like I said, I don't want Lizards would be hearing me
and be like, well, she doesn't know anything about this.
I did watch it all, but I think I was just too young, uh, to pick up on a lot of it.
But, uh, that is definitely interesting that they were already, especially since Chris
Carter, as we already said, was saying I didn't want a romantic relationship.
And then it seems like, yeah, it's also like, it's so difficult to, uh,
you know, you have two attractive people together, and I think the, the, the reaction is like,
oh, they're in a relationship.
Yeah.
Um, especially if it's, if it's two people who are, who are, like, attracted to that sex
of person, or that gender, yeah.
Right.
Um, yeah.
And so, like, so like part of it is just that we have so few examples in media of people
who aren't in relationship.
So people who are just friends and who that is a sustained long-term friendship.
Yes.
Which is worked.
That is completely silly.
That happens in real life so many times.
Yes.
Yes.
And I, I've been talking about this too, uh, because since I, I'm not into romance, um,
I identify as gray sexual asexual, uh, I don't know why I'm always looking for
romance and stuff.
Uh, like, why is this happening?
I don't even like it.
Yeah.
But it feels like we've made it into a more important relationship.
Absolutely.
Than a friendship.
And that should be.
It shouldn't.
No.
Um, but oh my goodness.
That we're, we're almost getting to the shipping part of this.
We are.
We are.
Um, one, one other lady that I wanted to point out from the show is starting in season
four.
There was a lady informant.
Uh, we had previously had, uh, uh, uh, deep rote and Mr. X. And now this lady informant
came in, um, uh, by the name of Marita, um, core, core, core, core,
crevice, uh, um, core, core, core, core, yes, that's her name.
It's Russian.
Oh, uh, but I know she, she was, it's like a very ice cream stereotype.
And so, um, and so she was also in contrast with Scully being so much, um, right,
goofier and warmer and like, yeah, fans hated her.
Oh, no, sure.
Yeah.
Well, this is, I mean, going back to your point is she's the only woman in the show.
I feel like every other woman that comes on is going to be pitted against her totally,
yeah, which is, we've talked about that before.
It shouldn't be the case that like, there's one spot and then everyone else is an enemy
of one spot.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Like if your entire principal cast is white and then you necessarily only have room
for black people to be villains and it's just like that is so wrong.
Why is this a thing?
Yes.
Super natural and buffy.
What the heck were you doing?
Anyway.
Yes, anyway, one of the reasons I really wanted to talk about this is because since it's
the 30th anniversary, there have been a lot of headlines about how the ex files shaped
the internet.
Right.
Yeah.
And this is actually not a thing that I realized until you, until you brought it to my
attention.
And it's wild.
How much of an impact it had.
And again, as I said with fanfiction, this is a, this is a space that has a lot of
women and a lot of queer people, a lot of marginalized people in it because perhaps they're
not represented and the thing they're watching or the thing they're enjoying.
So I wanted to go into a couple of those things and talk about our maybe experiences with
that.
But one of the big things is communities like fan communities online.
And when the show came out in 1993, that was when a lot of us in the United States were
getting access to the internet regularly for the first time.
It might have been good.
Oh, no, no, no, that was definitely during dialogue.
Dialogue.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah, that, that, that modem sound lives in my brain forever.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
It's the sound of nightmares.
Younger listeners, you don't know.
You don't even know.
But the interesting thing too, I was thinking about this, is that kind of dovetails with how
I feel like the internet allowed a lot of these like, here's this picture of Bigfoot, here's
this, like, it kind of proliferated a lot of things that the ex files was talking about.
Oh, absolutely.
And I mean, and right, right, it really made possible because previous to that, like anyone
who was, who was talking about those kind of mysteries and, and real world lore and fringe
theories, like had to do it by zine and fan and, and like, mail and, you know, and, and
so you might, you might write letters back and forth, but the internet let people connect
like that.
It did.
I mean, not instantly.
Like you had to go make a cup of coffee while a page load it, but I don't take a shower.
30 minutes later, it might be loaded, who knows.
But yeah, it really did.
And that is part of what shaped our internet as it is.
So people who love to the ex files, called themselves ex files, PHIL, yep, yep, that is
a moniker that I self identified by.
Oh my gosh.
I can't wait to hear about that.
Oh, geez.
So here's a quote from CNN about this.
Oh my gosh.
Yes.
CNN wrote about it.
The show's peak popularity in the mid to late 90s coincided with the proliferating use
of the internet where fans self-proclaimed ex files gathered to debate theories and behind
the scenes gossip while posting fan fiction, fan art, and more.
Oh wow.
This is from a 2023 article.
Yes.
This is from like recently.
Yes.
Wow.
I'm telling you, Lauren.
There's a reason we're talking about this.
That's great.
Yeah.
And yeah, like in addition to, I really do think it did have tailed with the internet because
the show led itself to fandoms so much because it raised so many questions and did involve
all of these mysteries and little pieces of lore and bits of conspiracy.
And you know, like it was a little less niche and sexier than other nerd dramas of the
era, like Star Trek, the next generation.
Like people who would not be caught dead watching Star Trek, right, thought ex files was
cool.
Right.
And I think part of that was maybe they'll get together.
I mean, I mean, which leads us to fan fiction.
As you know, I love to talk about this news.
I am shocked.
I never read ex files fan fiction.
Really?
Oh wow.
You know what I started on?
What?
Lord of the Rings.
Oh God.
Wow.
Wow, you are younger than me.
That's great.
That's bonkers.
Um.
Yeah.
I was probably like sailor moon and ex files were two of my earliest.
Like, was there some good ex files?
No.
But it filled me.
It did.
It did.
Um, I definitely, I don't think I ever wrote any particularly like I did write a class
assignment like that featured molder because you had to like describe someone in detail.
So I was like, I can do that.
And it's not a real person.
So I'm not going to insult anybody.
That's right.
Yeah.
But yeah.
Yeah.
I wasn't into the writing part at that point.
Okay.
I should check it out because I'm sure it's still there.
I'm positive.
It is.
And the community is still there.
I wrote a Lord of the Rings fan fiction and I had a friend read it and she was like,
they kissed for four minutes.
I was like, is that not normal?
She's like, no.
And then I didn't post it.
Oh.
No.
It was good.
Well, I'm sorry that you were discouraged, I'm glad that it was for good reasons.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I just love that she was like, no.
Yeah.
I mean, but like definitely, I, yes, like I, it was clear to me and all of my friends that
molder and scully wanted to work, yeah, we're going to get together.
We're going to get together.
Okay.
Yeah.
I was rooting for it for a very long time until it happened and then I was mad.
Oh, I can't wait to talk about this.
So my friend who discouraged me from posting this fan fiction, she also was a huge.
She was the same one I listened to on the phone with.
She was like, they're going to get together.
She was giving all these clues and like see this look and all of these things.
I was like, I don't know.
This is Jana Kramer from Wine Down with Jana Kramer.
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This is Dr. Laurie Santos from Appiness Lab.
As a happiness expert, I know that mindfulness isn't just about meditation.
It's also about being present with your choices.
And for me, present at meal time.
That's why I choose Deets and Watson.
They're a family-owned and operated business and they never cut corners.
Ever.
I use their chicken sausage with no added hormones in my family recipes.
Deets and Watson have been hand-crafting meats and cheeses for over 85 years.
They know that good taste doesn't need a long list of ingredients.
They're totally transparent about what goes into their food and what doesn't.
And that's why their meats and cheeses taste so great.
They stick to what matters, using the fewest, highest-quality ingredients to craft their
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Because that's how they've always done it.
If you want a more mindful meal, check out Deets and Watson.
Deets and Watson, it's a family thing, since 1939.
Visit Deets and Watson dot com slash the right way to learn more about the Deets difference.
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Hey, it's Shelley Rom, Monzi 100.
I'm someone who really likes to understand why we think the way that we do not just how
to relax.
That's what pulled me into the waking up app created by neuroscientist Sam Harris.
He combines meditation with real science and thoughtful storytelling about the mind.
I use it after my late night shift to slow things down and gain much needed perspective.
If you're looking for a clearer way to reset, explore waking up for 30 days free with my
link wakingup dot com slash Rome.
As I've said many times, the ex files was one of the first large fanfiction communities
online, and it was so big that the Scotland Yard investigated because they thought that
it was a cult and perhaps they should have been.
Wow.
Yep.
I mean, sort of a cult, they did not need to intervene.
No one is just like, they looked intensely at each other, yeah, which brings us to
shifting at last.
Yes.
You can see our episode for shipping.
We did recently for more about this, but shipping or relationship is what it sounds like.
It can look a million different ways anyway.
You can imagine, but it's essentially putting people or people into a relationship or not
canonically.
Yes.
Yeah.
And even real life people, oh, yes, that creeps me out.
But yes, that does happen.
And it involves often like fan works, fan fiction, music, fan art, fan videos, sure.
Like a community around like, again, did you see this look or did you see this?
Yeah.
And very right.
And especially with the internet, very immediate and very intense.
Yes.
Yes.
And they are also anti-shippers.
I was going to say or no, Ramos, but I actually think they're different.
Okay.
So anti-shippers, I would say are somebody who are like, I don't want this ship to happen.
And I think this ship.
I would say no, Ramos are more like, I just don't want romance.
Okay.
All right.
That's my experience.
Again, you can listen to our shipping episode where we talked about how that went really
wrong on Tumblr.
Oh.
Cool.
Yeah.
But the, in either case, they can be just as passionate as shippers in like, I really don't
want this to happen.
And some of the earliest online, no Ramos felt like they lost when Moldern Scully, their
relationship became canon and they're like, oh, this war.
Yeah.
We have a little.
We have to lay down on her.
Yes.
I have been defeated by their smooches.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
As it turns out, like, I guess I just wanted the unresolved sexual attention.
Yes.
That's what I do.
That's what I enjoyed.
I didn't actually want it to happen on the show.
I liked the tension.
Right.
So I talked about this in our shipping episode.
Sometimes I think you can ship something, but by shipping it, you don't actually want it
to ever happen.
Right.
You kind of just like the idea of what it might be.
Yeah.
And also, there are plenty of examples of, yes, when the ship becomes canon, it did
not go how you did it too.
Oh, that too.
That too.
Absolutely.
Like, which is one of the purposes of fanfiction is to create something that you would
do it.
And once you've done that, then you can be setting yourself up for failure in terms
of what actually comes next and what the creators choose to do.
Right.
Exactly.
And I would also say there are, and I would put myself in this category, there are multi
shippers.
Like, I could just ship like, oh, yeah, sure, them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sounds nice.
Yeah, right?
That's fun.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't have a particular attachment a lot of the time, right, particular, especially in
like a, like a team up kind of thing, like a, like an Avengers universe kind of thing
like that.
I'm like, yeah, sure, whatever.
Let's see what they would do.
Like in our relationship.
Yeah.
Cool.
But I don't ever want it to happen, usually.
I'm just kind of like, I'm interested.
Yeah.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it is interesting.
It's like a fun little science experiment, right?
It's just like, I don't know how it's going to go.
Yeah.
But it is interesting with the show like exiles where you do have like, in a very heteronormative
sense, like this attractive woman, attractive man.
And it was like, are they, are they, are they, are they, when, when will it happen?
Yeah.
So, right, I had literally no idea that the word shipping was invented with the exiles
fandom.
Yes.
It was.
I didn't know that either.
Like we have been doing it since we've been creating entertainment.
But the term shipping relationship was first used in 1993 in exiles fandom.
And the fun part of this is, it's all online.
You can see all these old posts they've been archived.
Oh, no.
Oh, dear, that makes me suspect that probably some of my very embarrassing like 13-year-old
like, like, like fan theories about stuff are out there somewhere.
The truth is that the posts are out there.
Yes.
Oh, they're great.
Like, it is, I, I recommend looking it up, but yeah, interestingly to me, because shipping
has gotten mainstream now.
People use it all the time.
But at, at this point, it was viewed as something strange people did, like, what are you doing?
You don't, you don't think this show was perfect.
You're trying to do your own thing.
Like, oh, you're not a real fan.
And there would be email attacks.
They would get harassed.
Like, it was very, so some of the posts you'll see were like, hey, I'm doing my shipping
thing, but I'm not bothering you, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, like, like, like, you can feel
however you want to about it.
This is just how I feel.
Exactly.
Yeah, yeah.
And even some of them said, like, I don't, I don't even want it to become a romance show.
That's like, like, the last thing I want.
Yeah.
I just am kind of exploring this aspect of it.
Yeah.
I'm just saying that they want a bone.
Because they just want to smush their face.
Yeah.
They're both attractive faces that it would look nice.
Yeah.
Kind of.
Exactly.
I did read.
I don't know if this is true.
I haven't really looked into it.
But I did read that UST on Resolve Sexual Tension, as you said, was also from exfiles.
I also heard MSR, Mulder Scully Bromance, was a whole term.
Okay.
I don't remember that one, but sure.
And then I wanted to read this quote, again, from CNN.
But there's no denying how much the online discourse revolved around the Mulder and Scully
pairing, whether involved shippers and no-romos, good, naturally, good, naturally, are
in all seriousness, flaming each other in online forums, foreign Mulder slash Scully fanfiction,
our fan videos, set to schmaltcy love songs.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, dear.
Fan videos, man.
Fan video.
Oh, I would watch them when I was younger, I would be like, yes.
The proof I needed.
But I also forgot about flaming.
Yep.
Yep.
Oh, yes.
All right.
Well, we're going to get into the impact.
But again, just so you know, if you're hearing anything around us, you are listening to
stuff I'm never told you with Lauren Volgobaum, guest host, thank you so much, live at the
I Heart Podcast Studio, powered by Bose at the House of Music at I Heart Radio Music
Festival.
It's fun to be talking about the ex files with all of this going on outside.
I wish we could showcase what's happening.
Yeah.
It's pretty wild.
There's just people walking by and kind of kind of waving or just sort of staring, being
a little bit confused.
That, yeah.
I was talking about my fanfic feels about modern scully.
It feels right.
Yeah.
Sure.
Why not?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We are in the 90s, the weirdos that are recording teams from people going to do other things.
Yeah.
Oh, heck.
Thank you.
We did want to talk about the impact that this show had and scully had.
Oh, sure.
Right.
All right.
When ex files really, in general, just paved the way for other genre fiction in television,
it did dovetail with the launch of the sci-fi channel in 1992.
But without ex files, I don't think we would have had lost or buffy or certainly fringe
or supernatural or Rick and Morty or on and on.
It kind of created its own genre of what we were talking about earlier, like long-running
TV series that have main recurring characters and like an overall plot arc-ish, but are also
allowed to play from episode to episode within the broader realm of what genre fiction is
or what it can be.
And yeah, like even in the same episode sometimes bouncing from horror to mystery to drama
to comedy.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And if you haven't watched this, listeners, like some of the episodes, they'll stay with
you.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Some of them are very hecking upsetting.
Yeah.
I did not watch home ever again.
Yes.
That one's well.
Yep.
We talked about that one in the version episode.
All right.
I think I might have watched it like one other time.
I was like, maybe, maybe, nope, still very epic.
Nope.
Still don't like that.
Okay.
Cool.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That episode got banned from ever being aired again.
Yep.
Sure did.
Sure did.
But yeah, no, like some of the images and some of the, I still think of that there was one
episode where Scully got a tattoo and started tripping out.
And like there was all of this bad stuff happening.
And I still think about that one.
I'm like, little.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ooh.
And it has had, I was reading a list of like all of the instances, the ex files has appeared
in like songs or other media and it's just, it's a huge list.
Yeah.
It had this really big impact.
And Scully did too.
She, people loved her.
Like she was really critically acclaimed and she stuck around.
She has a Barbie, which I love.
She's always on these list of iconic heroines that have often inspired other iconic heroines
in media.
And she, the legacy of her, a lot of people write is she encouraged a whole generation
of young women, of young girls to think about a career in STEM or they, they pursued it
or not.
Like.
Yeah.
Just to think like, oh, maybe I want to do that.
Yeah.
I can do that.
She's doing that.
She's doing well.
She's so professional and good at this job.
And maybe, yeah.
Maybe I could.
Yeah.
Why not?
Yes.
Yes.
And let us talk about that a minute.
So we did do the episode with Bridget where she really broke this down.
Yeah.
Really well.
So check that out.
Just in case, since we're doing kind of a, like, round up of all her ex files, who's
a hell of one place.
Yeah.
Totally.
What place?
So the skull effect is essentially something that has been studied by the Gina Davis
Institute.
Which I love.
Yes.
Yes.
2,000 women they surveyed, they found, quote, among the women who are familiar with the
character, 50% say Scully increased their interest in STEM, and 43% say that they considered
working in STEM because of her 91% that knew of her, that she was a good role model.
And it was great reading the stories people wrote.
They would talk about, like, just sitting around and watching the show with friends and
being, like, inspired, like, oh, okay, look, maybe I'm going to do that.
Isn't it?
That's so cool.
I kind of had the opposite effect for me.
I was, like, I definitely couldn't do an autopsy.
I could never do an autopsy in my life.
I'm not going to go into that one, but, but, but, but appreciate, still appreciate the
role model, of course.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, that's also fair.
Sometimes you get a record, but I could do it, but it's not for me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
And I do love, when Jillian Anderson was asked about this, she said, we got a lot of letters
all the time.
I was told quite frequently by girls who are going into the medical world or the science
world or the FBI world or other worlds that I range that they were pursuing those pursuits
because of the character of Scully.
And I said, yay.
Oh, that's so sweet.
Isn't it?
That's really cool.
I love it so much.
Oh.
Oh.
And that's the, that's the importance of representation.
Representation is it everything, but it is important, like, you're watching something
as a kid at 3 a.m.
You're huddled with your friend and TV, you're like, oh, I want to be like her or I could
do it.
Yeah.
She can do it.
Like, that's important.
It is important.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Mm-hmm.
More of that.
More of that, please.
Yes.
Yes.
But this brings us to our final note, and I wanted to put this in here because I love it,
but also because Samantha did threaten me if I don't talk about the book.
We do mention Scully's pant suits in the spent people.
Oh.
Okay.
Okay.
Yes.
So, one thing people love about this character are her pant suits.
Oh, yeah.
There are tumblers just pant suits.
That's amazing.
I am so proud of the internet for that.
That's beautiful.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So if you're unfamiliar with the show, she was always wearing, or most of the time, like
her professional business attire was these big suits, like these big puffy suit jackets,
and long trench coats, and tapered pants, and that evolved over time as style evolved.
But we have certainly in the beginning in 1993.
It was that very boxy concept of the early 90s, and then as third wave feminism really
hit pop culture, and we started getting, you know, the buffy summers and the share horror
witches and the spice girls of the world, then, you know, like outfits started changing,
and business attire for women started becoming hyperfeminum in some ways, and like certainly
more sleek, but less based on men's wear, and less giant shoulder pads.
Right.
Yeah.
Right.
And you can see her, the profile we did on Dana Scully for more about that, because I
do get love talking about her pant suits, but they are very popular, a lot of people call
it competence core, and you can trace kind of what you were talking about, how her
costuming changed, and there is an interesting narrative of like, fitting into a male space
by wearing more male clothes, and then more traditionally male clothes, and then moving
away from that, and what does that mean?
But it is fascinating.
I am a big, let's talk about costuming person, so, yeah, yeah, yeah, and as a character
too, you know, like she is going through all of these changes, and she is getting a lot
more, she kind of rediscoveres herself throughout the course of the show, and what she wants
that to be, and what that can be.
Right.
I have the most epic shoulder pads, it's a dress suit, it's not a pant suit.
I think it's my mom's, but it might be one of her sisters, but it's magenta, and it
has roses, like embroidered, and it is the most like feminine business power dress suit
you can imagine.
That's amazing, and I still have it, because I love it.
You should never let that go, that sounds beautiful, and very intense at the same time.
Every time I wear it, it adds like, inches out of my shoulder, yeah.
Oh, okay.
For sure, so I graduated high school in the year 2000, and while this show is still very
much a thing, and for sure, the interview suit that I went out and bought was a double
breasted pinstripe suit with, it's a scully suit, that's what it is, that's just what it
is.
It's like low-key cosplay.
Yeah, oh, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, and I've never actually done a full scully cosplay, but the suit's right
there.
But I know, and we talked about, well, I said I might cosplay a scully, and I just
didn't.
Oh, right, yeah.
Oh, I was so sad when I heard that.
I was like, oh, I'm going to show up to this, and then I was like, well, my backpack is
minutes from breaking, which it really is.
But yeah, maybe, maybe someday, yeah, and we can always just casual cosplay, some
scully.
That's true.
I'm going to show up to the next work meeting or whatever it is, like in both NR.
See if anyone realizes what it is, I love that game, yeah, yeah, you're good at that
game.
I am good at that game.
It's a strange sense of accomplishment when no one realizes it, but then it's also
like appreciation when someone does, it's a strange.
Totally.
Well, any closing thoughts on the next one, Lord?
You know, it gave us the gift of Jillian Anderson.
She did write and direct an episode in one of the later seasons.
I want to say season eight, maybe.
And I'm so glad that she's been able to have a lovely career, and because I enjoy watching
her.
It's so fun whenever she's in anything.
Yeah.
And her British accent is so on point, and I think you guys talked about that too.
And yeah, yeah, I like what a, what a weird 30 years ago.
That's fine.
That's great.
That's great.
That's great.
That's fine.
Yeah.
A lot of things.
Jurassic Park as well.
Oh, wow.
Heck.
Which I also got trouble for watching.
This is 1993, it was a risky year for me.
A lot of grounding's happening here.
Yeah.
I mean, I think it's, it's fascinating to look back at the impact it's had, especially
now.
And we didn't know what the internet was going to be.
We didn't know it was going to become this thing.
And the creators didn't know.
We didn't know the X-Files was going to be such a big part of that.
And how much it did impact fan communities were largely women.
And then like the scully, the scully effect, that's amazing.
That's so cool.
That is, that is the coolest thing about this weird genre television show from the 1990s.
It is.
I would love to hear from this.
If you haven't watched it, oh my gosh.
Go and watch it and let us know what you think.
Yes.
Yeah, let us, let us know, maybe, maybe do it in two parts.
Like, let us know what you think it's going to be based on this episode.
If you got all the way through this episode, having no, I have never watched it.
Yes.
And then the after, the after.
Yes.
Oh my gosh.
If anyone wants to just like constantly update us, like, whoo.
Yes.
It's going to give you new homework, but yeah, yeah, that would be fabulous.
It's great homework though.
Very fun homework.
It is good homework.
Wow.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you so much, Lauren, for guesting on this.
This was so fun.
It was.
Thank you so much for having me.
Oh, of course.
In this wild environment, we're going to try to get some pictures.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's pretty weird.
Yeah.
But lovely.
Thanks so much to to I Heart and to Bose for having us here.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
If you want to let us know about your ex files watching, yes, you can, uh, you can
email us at Stephanie and mom stuff at iheartbea.com.
You can find us on Twitter, that mom stuff podcast or an Instagram and Tik Tok stuff I'm
going to ever told you, we have a tea public store and we do have a clue where we talk about
Dana Scully.
You can get it at step you should read books.com.
Thanks as always to our super producer, Christina, our executive producer, Maya and our contributor
Joey and special thanks to Paul, who is here, helping us out, friend of the show, at this
event and thanks to you for listening.
Stuff on never told you to be an action by heart radio for more podcast from my heart
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