She Knew EXACTLY What She Was Doing... | DSH #2133

0:00Just because it's unlikely that you hear a voice one time doesn't mean it will never happen There can always be things that happen in a rarity and that contributes to the reasonable doubt if you ask me Like just because it's not gonna be black and white you have to hold some kind of legal line You have to hold some kind of moral line where you say gosh, man If a person their kids we can't just say hey the mental hospital can let you out in two months one month one day You can't just leave it to that there has to be a message sent the reason why it was 11 to one was because Prosecution had no case that they had no case like when Jennifer Toss was called up when the therapists were called up And they just were kids on the stand and they couldn't answer questions how come she didn't get better Why did you keep giving her more medication? It painted this terrible picture that no case But there's no way this woman who strangled each kid for four minutes guys four minutes She's strangling and we're gonna let her walk the street. There's no way that lady should walk the street So

1:01So my thoughts on this matter are there is no way by Massachusetts state law that they're gonna be able to convict her of murder given their rules on Insanity meaning she has to have a mental defect or a disease or defect which she did yep the prosecution first said They didn't believe that but then they conceded it in the closing statement But then that mental disease or defect beyond the reasonable doubt the prosecution has to prove that it did not interfere With her ability to see right and wrong or understand the quality of what she did or the conform her conduct to the requirements of the law To me that reasonable doubt being on the prosecution There's just no way that they're gonna be able to do that and I think the mistrial today kind of prove that as well Considering it was 11 to 1 but those are my thoughts Mm-hmm. I completely agree with that guys my name is Billy nice to meet you guys I'm from Massachusetts, so I am close to home from this yeah a little bit So my contention on the matter and I'm a free thinker. I like to just think critically my contention on the matter is

2:03This case is not about if she did it or not. She did it. They're saying that she did it. It's What was her mental capacity at the time? Did she pass that threshold of criminal insanity and it's the prosecution's job not the defense's job to prove that burden and Almost at the end of the trial before even went to Deliberations I think Kevin even applied for or requirement for I forget what it was called But but prosecution didn't even fail to even prove the standard of that So this it almost didn't even go to deliberations almost so I think they didn't prove the burden improve I think after finding out today 11 to 1 the jury agreed And that alone is why you know, I'm saying she did it. I think she did it But letter the law not guilty criminal insanity. Yes My name's Matt Moir. I'm an injury lawyer in Chicago former state and federal prosecutor I believe that this is actually a much closer case than people are making it out to be I can kind of see why there are 11 people hung up And and I can also of course see why one person thought she was guilty because I believe she is guilty under the law on Massachusetts

3:09I think in this case Lindsey Clancy Formerly was not mentally ill or suffering really from any sort of postpartum depression or other kind of preexisting depression I think she had minor mental health issues before but something was triggered within her brain with her child Callan her youngest child that it fundamentally changed who she was and I think she was laboring under an immense weight Of postpartum depression and that was very very tormented to her and I do believe that at that time So she wanted to get better and I believe That this was something that I think she didn't want to happen She did not want to fall down this slippery slope but she did and When the incident was happening I believe that she was aware of what she was doing and that's basically the test Can you conform your actions to the law? Can you tell right from wrong or by reason of mental defect? Can you not? I see too much planning and too much thought She's less than the category of criminally insane more in the category of very rare batch of people across time who have believed that they need to

4:16Relieve themselves of living and they need to take their children with them because it's too hard for them to bear The idea of their children being on the earth with them So I I have sympathy towards people with postpartum depression and I have some sympathy towards Lindsey although I'm tapped out of sympathy thinking about the horror That this was for her children and for Patrick and so I do think she's guilty based on Massachusetts law And what it tells us about when a person's insane and when they're not I'm Danny minor I was a cop for 27 years as a detective for 14. I was in charge of our detective division last three years What I tell and I do true crime on tick-tock I go into politics a little bit, but I get hated on for the politics. So I try to stay on the true crime, but I go by the evidence. I tell everybody go by the evidence don't think of what you're hearing on Social media like we talked before there's women on social media saying Patrick did this where there's absolutely no evidence that Patrick did this

5:18Okay, people just make stuff up. I got popular on Social media because of the Brian coberger case. I got I blew right up the half a million followers because of that case, right? And we in that case there was a lot of people thought Brian was not guilty and I told people Followed the evidence the evidence is the only thing you should be looking at Not what they say or this person says or what this person thinks follow the evidence I always say that and if you follow the evidence 1000% she did this 1000% and I'm gonna say this. I don't agree with Massachusetts law Everybody that kills somebody is insane Son of Sam in New York was talking to a fucking dog a dog told them to kill people So we're gonna let him off Okay, that's my thing everybody that kills somebody's fucking insane Okay, so what are we gonna do about this you're insane? Oh there you go go back out there have fun trying not to kill somebody today What are we gonna do guys if we leave her go what are we gonna do everybody? I killed somebody's insane

6:23So what are we gonna do this while say about that? I should say I'm Jared Mellow by the way Wizard of radical self respect on Instagram and YouTube, but I think there's a difference there's post-paramocycosis and women Experience post-paramocycosis, right? But men experience psychosis too. There's also a case I'm not sure if anyone knows about it that Matthew Schlier in Iowa He strangled his five-year-old son even planted for a week And then he had three expert witnesses testifier that he was insane and psychotic at the time of the killing And he got not guilty of our reason to have insanity as a guy wow in Iowa Right, so I just think there's a difference which means psychosis whether it's post-paramocycosis or not and a psychopath A narcissist or fill in the blank with other kind of mental illness I agree you can make an argument that most people that kill are mentally ill to an extent But do they are they mentally ill to the extent that they no longer understand? Most of them are not most of them are not Right, I think to I like a point that my

7:23debate partner here made Basically that there's this circular argument that I think is not necessarily driving your guys opinions But driving a lot of opinions which is that well if you commit a murder you're by definition insane And I think there is a slippery slope to where we say well look if a 22-year-old commits a gang shooting there by definition insane Why would you potentially throw your life away and invite retaliation? You're insane So you could say that anyone who commits a very serious crime is insane by virtue of the irrationality of doing it And I just think that where do we put that line? You know where does a person no longer become themselves? And this is where Lindsey actually has a lot of support come from I think which is that The Lindsey prior to all this prior to descending into a state where she was capable of killing her kids Was by all accounts normal and was by all accounts a nice wife and a mother and you know people described her as kind of quiet and traversed and just a normal person and I think the fact that her mental state moved from that into willing to enable to kill a child People can see that hey, this seems like she descended into insanity

8:24And I guess my point is that I'm just looking at the facts and based on the facts It seemed conscious and aware enough that it's just not on the other side of that line But if the facts were a little different I could see myself being on the line of insanity But and we could get into the facts But the planning and the thinking and Selectively reporting kind of selectively taking different drugs to kind of do things her own way It does show a person who's thinking through it unfortunate. What do you think she was experiencing post-program psychosis though? No, yes, okay, so that's the difference for me new in me. I think she was I think All of the evidence that she was talking about not feeling like herself at all a deep personalization disconnected She was saying that the medications were destroying her mind and I think the most likely thing is because people were saying to me Well none of the professionals said she had post-bottom psychosis But I would say to them well, what is more likely that none of them were able to help her because they were seeing it clearly Or they all missed it because she wasn't getting helped she wasn't getting better over time When she first reached out for help in September 2022

9:24Generalized anxiety and worry about going back to work. That's it But then under their care she got worse and worse and worse and worse So it's like they weren't helping her so to me doesn't that make it seem like they were all missing something to make a point against myself Just real quick to make a point against myself the the argument of selective She's giving selective information to different providers I think that baked into treating a person with post-partum depression where the kids are at stake You should assume that stuff might be getting left out in a good psychiatrist would ferret that out So there's a bit of a system failure here. They should have ferreted it out and given her better treatment So I agree with that keep going. I'm gonna agree with you guys on this and you brought up a great point And attorney. I'm sure you're gonna agree with this too As a cop our mental health system is so broken guys totally guys I'm telling you I had I just want to tell you a quick story so you understand where I'm coming from When I was a cop I had a guy take a buck knife. Do you know what a buck knife is? Okay, slit a huge knife. Okay, like think a rambo remember the rambo knife

10:26The edges the rambo knife slit both of his wrists and it wasn't like hey, I want some attention He cut him way down. I took him it back and I was a cop in Pennsylvania back in Pennsylvania It's called the 302 commitment I could take him for an evaluation and mental health Usually they keep them 72 hours if they keep them longer than 72 hours. There has to be a hearing right So I take him the mental health He was out within eight hours. Oh my god. Okay, they said yeah, he's not an endangered to himself So I'm telling you every time I took somebody to mental health they were out mostly before my shift was over So mental health is broken We and do I think maybe she didn't get the help she needed? I'd probably agree with that because I believe the mental health system is broken and we need to do something She took certain actions too that do kind of make it seem like she knew a bit of what she was doing and wanted to take matters into her own hands Town him to leave the doing Aaron and she kills the kids So it wasn't a matter if she was pat suffering for postpartum or or not I think it was it's what level and what threshold she was at and it's not what I mean every criminal arguably is insane

11:30Absolutely, but what can you prove in court if they're insane and what can be proven in court was Whenever the year was a general anxiety she was sick she went and sought help. It was recorded. They gave her more they escalated it over time. They got worse and worse and worse So their treatment their therapy wasn't working and then she killed someone So by calling her guilt so we're calling her guilty yet to this is actually also saying that the doctors failed her And that's why I think this was a slam dunk textbook criminal insanity not guilty case And where I think it gets kind of iffy and I'm not surprised that this didn't get brought up in court Um, and I think there was a collaborated effort by the defense and the prosecution to leave this part out of it because it if you bring the infidelity If you bring the affairs if you bring some of that stuff that was brought up It shows premeditation it shows malice in our hand, but on the prosecution side it also buries Patrick It makes them look terrible And now we have to address this and now they have to get into this big slippery slope of

12:31Whoa, maybe she knew she was going to get left. Maybe she knew she would think the kids were going to be taken away from her Maybe she did this Pre maybe she sent him out premeditated But by the letter of the law there's something called altruic Filiside that is is a huge standard for proven criminal insanity And dr. Resnick said she did not and what the difference is the justification is I'll trick filiside says you can still kill someone you can still premeditate it But if you do it, what was your your mount your state of mind? Was it out of love or was it out of guilty? I want to hurt this people and it is in court that doctors specified this public knows this As she was killing these kids she was saying to them God is good God is good and her actual plan was I want to kill myself But I need to kill them before I kill myself so I can save them I can be with them forever Keep in mind this trial was never supposed to happen in her mind She was supposed to die at the end

13:31So it wasn't supposed to be her on trial right now It was supposed to be Patrick on trial in the court of public opinion Yeah, and that to a narcissist is the only thing that matters and the only thing that she wanted out of this And in a weird way, I don't want to get like too carried away But that one male today that 11 to 1 male screwed Patrick the person the one person who didn't want to mistrial in this case My opinion was Patrick could be right because that means now the prosecution has to go back They have to scratch their head and they say now we have to look into this affair Now we have to go into this and we have to paint this she had a motive She had premeditation and now that's gonna break Patrick through the mud He's gonna look terrible and I still think and because the prosecution has to do it This is bigger than Patrick. This is law. This is precedent. This is way bigger than the clansies now and I think I think She's gonna end up getting the last laugh because this is gonna end up making him worse Like it's gonna drag him through the mud make him look worse and and she's still gonna win So I'll put through this on truth

14:32Well, what's the proof of the affair? I do want to know that I'm open minded If this you told me this guy was having a sorted affair I'd say ooh These debates only get bigger when you support the channel and we've got some of the wildest matchups coming next Subscribe now, tell us in the comments who you want to see debate next Maybe it was him maybe it was her What are we gonna think about this but I have not heard of of much evidence of that What are we thinking is what it is? Yeah, okay. Here's the thing though I think if he was having an affair that helps the prosecution Because it gives her a motive now. They disagree with that. Yeah, wouldn't she kill him though instead of the kids Well, they would say that he's trying to punish she's trying to punish him Okay, she did she did try to end her own life too. Right. She did. I think she did I believe that some people think she didn't try that hard Yeah, she left herself apparently Jake. I think she did try. Yeah, oh yeah. Yeah, great It's harder to kill yourself than it is to kill the people well. Yeah, it's like without a gun It's like if you've ever heard the thing about the force that you used to bite through a carrot You could use that same force to bite through your finger bone, but you you won't you won't do it

15:32You know, that's what she did when she was when she was attempting suicide It was kind of like her instincts kicked in and the prosecution hit her for that. They're like She should try harder on her own kids than she did on herself Which it's kind of a grim gruesome thing, but I want to I want to go off what you said yeah If they decide to go with the affair and I think you're right I think we saw the writing in a wall and attorney you correct me if I'm wrong Any other case in this case that it was 111 I don't know if the prosecution retries the case they might reconsider and think to themselves What's this gonna cost the county this and that but this case is such national? They're gonna read prosecute the case But if it was 111 in another case they would have a discussion. They look they would probably let it go They would let it go or plead them down to something so minor they couldn't refuse. I totally agree with you I think they're gonna have to retry this one because the prosecution saying this woman killed her kids And she did it on purpose. She knew what she was doing. She was not totally out of it And that's because the prize the judge Sullivan didn't just dismiss that That juror and say you know what we want to say of the state of Massachusetts all this money unfair

16:34And the circus yeah, it would be over if they You're the lawyer how unprecedented would that be for judge Sullivan to say you know what Completely unprecedented. So here's what here's what I think happened with that lone juror who's the whole about wanting to find Lindsey guilty The other jurors were trying to cajole that juror into saying fine She's not guilty by reason of insanity So they took what that juror said at some point in deliberations likely saying hey look I grant that there's some kind of a doubt here and they said well, that's reasonable doubt you have to find her not guilty But if the person didn't say I have a reasonable doubt it doesn't count as a reasonable doubt that leads you to And finding them not guilty. It just counts as a speculative doubt like I could say I doubt. I'm sitting here right now I have the point zero zero zero zero one percent chance. I'm hallucinating all this and I'm sitting back in my hotel room at the hampton in and I you know So there's always a speculative doubt so that juror may have said hey look I acknowledge some Motocom of doubt But then they all try to use it against him and say you had a reasonable doubt and you're not following the law It was different to you between speculative doubt and reasonable doubt reasonable doubt is based on reasons it's based on facts

17:38Yeah, it's kind of subjective but a speculative doubt is more like hey like there could have been a third guy in there That was just killing these kids for unknown reasons. I say that's speculative. You don't have a basis for that in Patrick's case Excuse me not in Patrick's case in the case of whether she's insane or not There are doubts one might have the question is are they reasonable and for me they're not because They're and that we can get to this but I'll drop my Smoking gun when the time comes after we wrap up this point I believe there's a smoking gun in this case that means that Lindsay is cognitively aware enough that she's not insane and I just want to say one more thing about you If they do do that and I agree with you It's gonna be hard to come from my one eleven. Okay, you're gonna have to come you can't use the same case I totally agree so they're gonna have to get Patrick because we don't have evidence that there was an affair Right we don't have to get Patrick on the stand saying he hasn't had an affair on my right? Well, there's evidence it just wasn't brought up a court. I think there's a concerted effort not to bring up a court We know about I mean it's 2026 videos. There's there's a man Rachel out together somewhere. Yeah

18:46They were together That he probably did it Sorry guys Back to the reasonable doubt they say Beyond the reasonable doubt means 90% or more that they did it and I just don't see how in this case You can get to 90% that disease or defect she had did not get in the way at all I just think how can you get to that 90% threshold here's how I get there. I'll tell you so cool I was looking for something to put me one way or the other because you scratch your head I think she degenerated in her mental state and it's it's horrible and she didn't want this But then she did this gruesome thing. How do you score this? How do you figure out what really happened? And here's here's the rub Hey guys, you know, I don't do promos for just anybody the only reason I'm talking about legends right now is because they completely flip the script Look the reason I know it's different is because I actually met the team in person in Las Vegas I trust these guys and how they run the site changes everything legends is a premium US sweepstakes casino It's free to play and when you win they feature lightning fast redemptions They have a massive game vererity hundreds of premium slots sports and live tables you can play entirely for free

19:52Stop dealing with platforms that lock up your funds hit my link right now and go see why legends has earned its name hit the link below She made up the voice and I think we can know that she made up the voice and if she made up that she heard a voice Telling her to kill her kids then it's because she's trying to get out of trouble And if you're trying to get out of trouble and not just Catatonic and horribly miserably depressed and you're trying to weasel your way out of it You probably knew what you were doing at the time and you're guilty. Here's why I think she Made up the voice and I'd love to hear your guys response I heard the psychiatric testimony. I think it was dr. Sathoff for the prosecution He said I have studied cases like this where people hear command hallucinations voices They don't typically arise for the very first time and then you just follow it That's not what you see clinically in the studies with patients who are going through this you hear benign commands You hear get up sit down go over to the cabinet open the cabinet open the window close the door intrusive bizarre

20:52Command you don't just hear kill all the kids and then you just follow it people fight it especially someone like Lindsay who seemed normal Before all this she would have fought it and then here's the biggest reason why I think the voices fake because She said yeah, you know when I when I when I killed the kids the voice went away That's the kind of cartoonish caricature of a command hallucination you'd make up I could use a fair point for the prosecution there But here's the thing how do you prove that one way or the other that oh definitely fake Here's why I think it's proven because the defense you know I have my criticisms of reddington I thought his closing argument wasn't the best but he's a pretty savvy lawyer is pretty sophisticated I think reddington knew that that's a big fact that it that the prosecution psychiatrist is saying This does not fit the characteristic of a command hallucination. It just doesn't it be like if you said Yeah, I'm schizophrenic. I'm hearing voices What do the voices sound like and then you're just making something up that doesn't really sound like how schizophrenic people hear voices That's like How Lindsay was hearing the command hallucination

21:52It has the hallmarks of a fake command hallucination and knowing that the defense knowing that their psychiatrists Would have said that's not true. You can hear it just like this you can hear it just like this And then it can just go away But they couldn't say that because they're probably on record saying something to the contrary at some point in their career Well two things dr. Resnick the post-partum psychosis expert he said that she did happen he verified So and he said that all and she interviewed him too That's what he interviewed her as she said sure and he also said that Okay, she had bipolar type two bipolar type two There's a certainly a connection with that and post-partum psychosis and here's a thing just because it's unlikely That you hear a voice one time Doesn't mean it will never happen there can always be things that happen in a rarity That contributes to the reasonable doubt if you ask me like just because it's not going to be black and white I think that's I think that's a good point I think there is a world where some person somewhere has psychosis of the level where it crops up I don't know where and they hear that one voice But to me that's a little more on the side of the speculative doubt Especially when she said the voice is extinguished because think about what a think about what a command hallucination is

22:57Neurons in the brain misfiring to cause a person's cognition to think that they're hearing a voice echoing in their head and For that to stop for those neurons to not fire because she obeyed them That sounds more like something someone would make up because it sounds plausible than what actually happens clinically two people with psychosis We're all the things leading up to that though. She has all these thoughts. She tells in herself About harming having thoughts of harming the kids thoughts not voices. Yeah, well, yeah There are certainly a difference there you're correct about that. But she told Patrick She told her mother. I'm not sure if her sister knew her sister was nlcsw by the way. Yeah, I didn't realize that for at first But she was so she would actually have a duty to report yeah social workers or man to two reporters as you know of the Big thing here too women and infants hospital There's only four of those places in America that is specialized in postpartum depression postpartum psychosis They didn't let her in they didn't let her in and they told her oh, she's over-medicated They tried to call psychiatric nurse practitioner Rebecca Jolada

23:58She didn't answer the phone and she didn't call him back and to women in infant discredit They didn't call her back again And then she was at McLean hospital because she's having thoughts of ending her own life She had those thoughts of harming the kids they let her leave after five days now That was the last stop in the tracks right if they would have kept her for a month We're not having this conversation right now. I think that's the whole thing right Let me tell you guys what I think about experts in trials okay I've been through many experts in trials Isn't it funny that the prosecution always gets an expert that agrees with them and the defense always gets an expert that agrees with them How many people did they go through before they got their expert? Yeah, that's what I always think so to me if I was on a jury Now I was just on a jury and they didn't pick me But They probably looked at my social media. It's kind of way but anyway My thing is they're getting paid to say this okay They're getting paid to go out there getting paid so if I was on a jury I would just watch the evidence. I would not listen to the experts

24:58I wouldn't for the record in my personal injury cases all of my experts are 100% telling the truth We only get the most honest go on In not criminal just for the recognition that because not Murphy did say the same thing He did the DA the former DA in California right but he said that they're for higher. Yes Yeah, can you really believe the prosecution's witnesses? Can you really believe the defense expert witnesses? That's up for debate But the actual people in the case. I also think it's very telling that Patrick Patrick's parents Lindsay's parents none of them wanted to see her guilty I think that's that counts for something. I would say it does yes. I thought that was interesting that she She represented she was an offense witness now actually have a question because I am curious about this So you remember at the end of at the end of what's her Patrick's mom's name with Megan? I think it was Megan Megan got out the stand or Patrick's mom. I'm she nodded to either Kevin or Lindsay There was like a nod or something and a lot of people in the end We're talking about all that's so nice that she you know represented the defense and she and she acknowledged Lindsay Um and correct me if I'm wrong here if you're a defense witness you meet with the the the lawyer before he had you go over the script

26:03You go over the question you go over everything where I would think oh you're mostly up. Okay. Yeah So um, I actually think and this goes back to my Original theory that prosecution and defense were kind of working together You know working with them. You know that we're gonna stick to postpartum and um and criminal insanity or whatever um that That the reason why Lindsay's mom was a defense witness was they agreed they were gonna stick to the script They weren't gonna talk about any relationship issue. I mean Lindsay's mom didn't even go to Rachel's it Yeah, Patrick's mom didn't go to Rachel's in in Patrick's wedding. Oh, that's it Did you guys know about this? So there's like an issue though. Yeah. Oh true. Oh, I mean I wasn't there personally That's the that's the that's the story that's out there anyways um So I think she was a defense witness, but only to protect her son, you know, and you're right You know, witnesses are there to have a plot but to have a stance and you know and defend what you're therefore

27:03um But um, I don't know that was just that was telling to me I think you've arrived at the heart of why this case is so controversial. Yeah, the fact that Patrick's mom Would somehow still be supporting Lindsay it tells you that Lindsay wasn't John Wayne, Gacy, Ted Bundy a lot of people have messed up brains and they kill people And we don't usually feel very bad for them if it's lifelong and they're kind of just seemingly a sociopath If Lindsay had been you know, harming animals as a kid and had the hallmarks of some kind of a sociopath I don't know if it manifests the same way in women as men, but I think it does some of the it's rare that there's female serial killers They have signs when they're young like like the male serial killers do you wouldn't feel bad for her in that case But you've got to the heart of it at some point Lindsay was lovable enough to Patrick's mom that lind that Patrick's mom probably feels like whatever happened to this young lady It's not her anymore and a lot of people say it's not her so she should be absolved and it's a close question I think does the fact that it's not her mean she's insane or does it just mean She had arrived at a state where she made certain

28:04Conscious decisions I'll be at underdress and under depression that were horrific It's a very interesting question and that gets at the heart of it the fact that his mom wouldn't say I always hated her she always had something wrong with her and she killed my grandchildren She feels some measure of sympathy because she can compartmentalize and think Lindsay some screw must have completely come loose and fall I think all of that is a point for the defense though really like that helps the defense's case if you ask me because If she was actually some sort of narcissist psychopath person I don't think they would be on her side at all. No, I don't think they'd be asking for leniency They want to see the best outcome for her right? Yeah, Patrick does too now It didn't help Patrick in the eyes of public opinion for him to want the best outlook for her right instead They're saying actually that just proves that he's actually more guilty that he wants to get her like off the hook like that Which is I don't want to get into that for I defend Patrick. Yeah, I feel really bad for him. Yeah, I do too So what I don't really I think he's a bad dude bad bad bad husband bad father

29:06I think he emotionally abuser I think he's a narcissist I think men I hold men to a high high standard and yes a higher standard than men than women and children really and we need to be smarter We need to be So you're definitely a Democrat If anything on moderate or I lean a little bit right You think that he abused her Not physically nothing emotionally physically whatever Every time she was in therapy or every time she was in McLean hospital He was somewhere else. He was I think there was eventually a point where she was she's pregnant And she realizes that oh my god. This guy doesn't love me anymore. Love someone else being I have family matter. I just I won't get into a much but but yeah, but Being pregnant being married to a man who does not love I don't know Apparently dude does not love you in his in love with someone else and is now gonna plan on divorcing you Taking 50 50% of your kids at best because now she has documented medical history that that she's probably gonna lose full custody of the kids

30:10I think she knew that she he was gonna divorce her if we knew there was an affair They know there's an affair the lawyers know the fair but they purposely left it out of my case Um, and she did do this premeditatedly she did send them out She did think I don't want my kids taken away from me at all. I'm gonna do everything I possibly can to keep them with me I'm gonna die at the end as well. We're gonna be there to see tether forever And Patrick's gonna is gonna but this was all under a fit of psychosis you think all under a fitness I coast is which dr. Resnick and they all said is still and I got my notes is still Um, it's a good point still under delusion right? So is that on their matter in Massachusetts among the Massachusetts people Is there chatter is that what you're getting it because I heard something you said in there about you may have Here here some hearsay and I'm not defaming it by calling here say hearsay can often be true In fact you here's the definition of hearsay is it's offered for the truth of the matter So you there and I'm not asking you to name any sources, but yeah there exists hearsay about Patrick Uh, yeah, I mean there's the rumors. I mean there's pictures of them at group workout classes in 2010. They're together

31:15There's really the No, that's that's Barry's workout class. I do I used to work that is They ran they ran a marathon together in 2020 you guys oh, this is What did he know her how do we know he knew her before they were they were together they dated before and the only reason this Is speculation and not in court is because they chose not to bring it in court That's it wait till this comes out. This is all evidence and this is all out there. It just was purposely I think it'll come out. Yeah, absolutely Which is gonna screw him very debatable. It's gonna screw her which is gonna make this next trial so ugly Um, and then it's gonna come down to I think did you guys think that what's her name read was innocent to I think very innocent Yeah, absolutely so So I'll defend Patrick everyone's giving him the least charitable interpretation of everything he says and does I think He just was in over his head. He didn't know how to deal with a wife that was a man bipolar

32:19Post-partum depression post-partum psychosis. They are two different things. He just didn't know how to deal with it He's a low-sounding house and I'll give you this. Yeah, so we're on the same team Yeah As a man, I agree it is up to you to like step up and be the leader I call like providing positive masculine containment. Love. He should do that. Absolutely. Did he fall short? Yeah, he did fall short a little bit. I think he was a little passive I think he's more passive than he was narcissist or psychopath though I think he didn't step up. He didn't know how to handle it Yeah, cuz he could have said to her, you know what? Maybe I shouldn't believe in Lindsay alone that much if she's having thoughts of harming the kids She was just in McLean hospital the beginning of January He was leaving her alone with them January 14th. I think was the first time he did do that. Yeah, they were at that brunch now Lindsay encouraged him to go but this goes to another topic that People want Patrick to know when not to listen to it. Sure And that's what I think that's comes with social calibration as a man when to not listen to the woman

33:19That's a very controversial thing to say so further contextualized Patrick's Um He heard and he heard that she was having these intrusive thoughts about harming the kids and that there's been much made of that a lot of people Are just like hating on Patrick and they're either saying he did it or they're saying he should have known better And he should have protected the you know kids people on all sides coming at him And initially I thought oh my gosh. How do you hear that and not take action and really make sure your kids are protected But he qualified it immediately after with the next question where he said well She said there was intrusive thoughts about harming the kids But then he changed it to about them being harmed by some kind of an ailment or he kind of qualified it. He's like Was she saying that she wants to harm the kids or that she has these kind of echoes in her head that they are going to be harmed Which is kind of a feature of Well, I don't know about psychosis, but it could be that could be but it could also be depressive thoughts and trusive thoughts that come with anxiety and depression So just to further contextualize them because even though we're on the opposite side of this I do defend Patrick I think that um I think you could look at any complex event like a murder and you could find a million reasons to blame

34:25You could find some guy jogging by the house and find some reason to say he was the murderer and he was you know You could find any way to blame any person for anything if you try hard enough and that person is in the vicinity of the murder So I think that's what's happening to him and my theory is that because the guys he looks like a deer in the headlights He's wide eyed. He looks a little bit disturbed I mean of course he's disturbed by all this People have seized on his physiognomy his appearance and said that lets us tell that tells us that he's he's a scoundrel And he's guilty and he's you know up to no good So I really do feel for the guy and I think he's probably like tormented beyond measure by all that I agree with that I think what you just said it could also point to her having some psychosis too that that waxes and wings It's not always going to be a severe intensity which would explain why sometimes she's able to tell on herself Oh, I'm having false a farm in the kids, but then other times it gets worse And I think Patrick he wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt He wanted to he doesn't want to think the worst of his wife

35:26He doesn't want to think that true what man does want to think that oh my wife the mother of my children is capable of Strangling totally of my kids with an exercise band total denial. I also think he's in denial Yeah, and so I think that his actions are congruent with that and there's a lot of things that people are just giving him The least charitable interpretation of everything he says and does If that was my wife and she you had years and years and I'm sure you guys agree with this I'm not saying like you got disagree and she had years and years of medical history and she was had the She'd be better. We'd find a way to have her better. I'd be with her every second of the day I'd quit my job. I'd figure out the mother of my kids. I agree with you. Yeah To think that too. He's so easy. I wouldn't be running marathons and on it I mean this is it wasn't brought up in court yet But it is underlying it is there. It is a huge thing and it's gonna be the main You know the I'm kind of bouncing around but when he found the kids It was it's quoted in the nine-win-one call that he said oh my god. She killed the fucking kids

36:27She killed like out of anger, you know the effort in that sentence also made me a little confused But I we don't know how a person to judge a person who's that shocked But I also did kind of hear that and think so I interesting I hear that I hear that as a guy who just found his wife You know like you show you go home you find your wife outside. She's like you're like what is going on You know this is insane then you go inside and you find your kids dead and he knew He knew we know he knows what we don't know that there's issues in that marriage and like she's kind of She they resent each other in a weird way and he's like oh my god like he she did it out of like that fucking bitch Killed the kids like she he's such a narcissist that like this is how she's gonna get back in me Like and this is gonna ruin my image. Just gonna I think it was out of hate not out of sadness. I do Um, and I think I I one of the reasons I got so passionate about this case is um And again, you're not you don't go to jail for being a narcissist. You don't you know Narcissists don't go to therapy your victims do and and she and he put her through so much abuse and lack of love and all she wanted was to get married

37:31Have a family with this guy who loved her. He loved someone else treat her like shit resent it her And I he put her through therapy didn't give a fuck and then gaslighted her for it later Was gonna divorce her and then take the kids. I don't blame her I think I think they should mention the premeditation all this stuff in the next trial because it's gonna paint such an ugly picture If people are gonna be like holy shit like yeah, she was thinking that she did about it the less it's gonna seem like she was in a fit of psychosis They say what you just said she's gonna be She's She's getting the chair You are given Patrick the least charitable interpretation of that. No one heard the 911 call about it true Unless you're in the court and I heard it was released in the very beginning in 2023 or whatever it was but since then only people in the court have heard it right yes, but I like You know what you would act like if you walk home to your three kids dead I could see myself saying the kids are fucking dead Oh, just like a path would say that I'm like really yeah, I can picture myself saying that I was like what the fuck like

38:34Yeah, the people in the courtroom there are reporters. I just saw yesterday I watched a video because I was like what happened in this 911 call I think there's a transcript out there, but I wish I wish I could hear it So I instead I because it's not publicly available. I listened to a reporter who said it was the most shocking thing everyone in the courtroom was crying Look the guy works for Microsoft. I mean was he a A play actor in high schoolers. Is he an actor? I don't know, but I don't think so and I don't think you can fake that emotion So I and there's people that the person named Susan. I can't remember her last name. She's a reporter in Boston That's what she was saying she was saying this thing was the most traumatic thing I ever heard right And I'd be shocked if he was faking it and so I tend to believe her on that yeah, I do too And I think I think again Patrick's the loser today though. I will agree with you there Now it's gonna give a lot more fuel to all the speculation against him people will be looking into some of things You're saying, but again, I don't agree with a lot of the things you just know I agree I agree But I think there's just so many people are taking half-truths or lies of a mission and they're just running with it

39:35It's a it's a fallacy though Because it's like what can't as I was to do I agree with you the question and then right and unanswered question means evidence that your preferred series true And that's garbage though like that's not how that's actually what a lot of defense lawyers do in criminal prosecutions Where they go? Well, we don't have answers to all these questions. So that's a reasonable doubt and often it'll be like Well, but you just randomly suggested something that there's no factual basis to believe That all the time to be like how do we know the flying spaghetti monster didn't cardiac the elderly lady and lever bleeding on the sidewalk And it was like, I don't know man because we have your guy on camera doing it I agree with you. Yeah, I just want to throw something that's gonna really put this controversial Okay, because that's what I do All right, let's do it. I will say what other people will not say two questions for the panel Okay, and I think you answered it the one already if this was a man would we feel different and let me explain this We had a professional wrestler. I think you all know him if you watch professional wrestling

40:36I don't know if you guys did the WWE about eight years ago. I think his name was Benoit. They called him Yeah, he killed his whole family. Oh my god. He killed his entire family was supposed to show up at a wrestling match Never showed up. They sent people at a house. He murdered all his hands. Yes He just he used weights to wrap around the next and kill them And he was totally mental health. There was nothing showing why they expanded this people said it was to steroids It was on that made a mentally ill would we have defended him? No, none of us defended him Okay, but here's the second question and I mean this and this is gonna be very controversial I did a video if this was a black woman would we still be defendin this And I'm gonna tell you right now the answers know because the big stories are white women They're the big stories Karen Reed with that case it was a hit and run where she killed somebody on a hit and run. Okay Why was that case national because she was kind of pretty right? She was kind of attractive looking She was a white woman just like missing kids do we ever have black black kids on there big cases

41:37You know john bane ramsey all in this no, it's never black kids And I'm not trying to make this controversial. I'm just being honest If this was a black woman would a hunter white women be out there would pink shirts on absolutely not We made a lot of points there So I'll say this if it was a man There certainly would be less people up in arms about this But that being said it shouldn't necessarily change the law like I said that guy Matthew Schliere in Iowa Where it's harder to get NGRI he got it So in the eyes of the law they shouldn't care but in terms of the people I absolutely agree less people would yeah if it was a man yeah now in terms of the black woman part I'm not sure if you all saw but yesterday yeah the guy that was shot in the Walmart Park in Latin Florida Barth the godly mo I think his name is black woman shot him and she got stanger ground wall in Florida awesome I Made a post about it right and everyone was for it right and it was a black woman even right now granted he was telling her like you're a bitch called her the n-word

42:38Right said uh shoot me. I've seen tough rassles in you. It was they were fighting over a parking spot. Oh my god This happened a few months ago, but the DA just announced in Broward County for it. No charges And I called it and people were really pissed at me if you want to go when I was saying it but I said now Like he's stalking her around the parking lot. I didn't even know he was calling her names I didn't even know that he was on M. Fedamine's THC and an SSRI But I just confirmed it to me of course they made the right decision So I get it. I think there might be less a lot less black woman How about we wouldn't even hear about the case? We wouldn't even hear about the case it wouldn't even be on the nose. I'm sorry. That's a true true That's the true true true true true So the real case would be if Matthew Schleyer's case made the public's perception What would people say about that and again Matthew Schleyer's the guy He admitted to planning to killing his son Because he thought that he had a food allergy that was going to give him a very painful death Yeah And so he initially said I'm going to do it with a knife They changed his mind and strangled him

43:40Killed him now what really helped him was his wife was on his side Well everyone his family was on his side too having such a delusion is that thinking oh my gosh my son is sick You know, I could see people thinking that that would be some sort of prolonged if not psychosis some sort of Totally disassociated state where he doesn't even understand reality and that's when you get the benefit of the law Which absolves you for insanity if you basically don't know what the hell you're doing and reality is not what it is to the rest of us One thing I think Danny my debate partner here might have said in a video that I saw I have a really It's a really interesting thought provoking question which really made me think Would people be defending Lindsay Clancy in the way that they are if she killed somebody else's kids? Yes, I did do video that's really interesting because I did because there's something about it being her own kids That they think well she must be crazy to kill her own kids or there's something about it just happened within their house What if she was a baby sitting someone else's kids and she didn't have kids or her kids were Safe in a different room and she killed someone else's kids people will be like oh you kill someone else's kids

44:40You're going to prison the context yeah, so but that means though that She would be in either way so encourage of the law it shouldn't it doesn't matter one way or the other in terms of the law But in terms of the people and who's defending her then that yeah, yeah, that's people would probably be on her side And other people even said what she killed some puppies what that right for that argument. Yes, I heard that to her That's true do people will be pissed yes, and they're right they would be pissed but there are people who Oh, it doesn't matter There are people standing outside that courthouse that are protesting that won her freed That if she killed puppies, they would be saying she should go to prison. I swear There are people like that who feel more bad for for puppies than for children, but yes anyway people think all sorts of things So in this case, there's don't even know what it's about. Yeah, they think that this whole case is still about Did she even do it and she admits it? It's like they just did you not listen to Kevin reddinton's opening statement? Right, so the Right the judge said this the judge said yes, that's the piece of it No, but here's the thing though that Kevin reddinton he conceded that she did it in her in his opening statement in the civil lawsuit

45:46Lindsey Clancy confessed in detail So some people will say no that wasn't she didn't do that Or she was told that's exactly what she did But if you read the civil lawsuit, which is not a part of this criminal lawsuit I don't know how she got so specific about it. Yeah, if she didn't like if she was just told oh, this is what you did I don't know like In terms of people in the trial No one was putting Patrick on the stand now maybe you even disagree with that a little bit But like as it is right now that was just not what it was about like they if the defense didn't concede in the opening statement Then it would be more about that it would be more about did she even do it and then the commonwealth they changed their strategy because now Like they would have to actually prove she did it as opposed to trying to prove her mental state at the time but changes everything I agree it changes it I agree to answer your question I was thinking about that one for a while with the black woman What in the man actually specifically else to the man and um and I have heard the the argument where you know We're talking post-partum psychosis. We're talking to his extremely hormonal like right so the equivalent for a man

46:52If what if he was over testosterone eyes if you will it has too much testosterone and I thought about that for example I've seen that argument a few times and I'm like well, okay If I have a low testosterone I'm a guy have low testosterone and I go to a doctor or TRT specialist or whatever like that and I'm getting testosterone replacement therapy or something like that and I go and it's not getting me better or something's wrong Or there's like and I keep going back to the doctor and and he says here take more take more take more You know, maybe that's gonna that's gonna work and I'm like I don't know. I'm not having good experience with this No, take more take more and then I go kill someone I think it's the same. I actually do I think just because there's recorded doc, you know documented medical history there I'm gonna agree with you that you're gonna say it's the same, but when a jury think it's the same That's the thing they're saying that would be psychosis too as what you say yes Uh or the same letter of the law, you know and and I and and I know your original question was how the core public Right, it's always looks at a woman different. They don't right, but I just do think and what separates

47:55You know, and to answer your question with the black woman and the white woman's situation Yeah, I do think if there was if there was If you could prove it and you could prove it in court and there was documented court a medical history that she did all this Um, then yeah, I think it would be the same. I don't think we'll get the same attention to be honest with you And here's the other thing is high profile cases get better attorneys. You realize that right You get better defense. You get better everything because they don't care about the money This is gonna make them celebrities these attorneys are gonna be celebrities So they get better defense this this black woman she was accused of this and it didn't get on national news She's getting a public pretender and I'm telling you that's what they call right sorry no When I would put a put a client I mean a client As somebody I arrested in the back of my police card. They would always say to me I guess I'm getting a public pretender. I'm going to jail. I swear to god That's what they would call them public pretenders So that girl would get a public pretender the trial would be a day. Yeah

48:56Maybe two days the jury would be out an hour They wouldn't have Dr. Resnick who's the resident expert of Filiside in the entire country who was on all these things. So what I'm saying is the crew I know I'm a Republican and I'm saying this but the criminal justice system is not fair to every no It's not agree some people get better defense than others that that's a fact And here's your thing people have been saying all blaming hormones for murder is like blaming testosterone for rape I'm seeing a lot of people say that But like the hormones I think it is a little bit different. I don't think if someone gets TRT and they do that They should be able to get it. I think not guilty by reason of insanity should be a very rare thing Yeah, in specific circumstances. It's different. Yeah, what people saying that they're not thinking about it straight people Who have postpartum depression and our deteriorating in the way Lindsey did again? I'm saying she still knew what she was doing But even in her case Her mind was basically an unrecognizable place from what it was before it's different Then someone who's on testosterone and acts up or something. Yeah, interesting. Yeah I mean, I think her mind was off the rocker

49:56I think and it got worse and worse from September and I just think she had no idea what was going on And then that's why she did it and I think it should have been it should have been NGRI today or lacking criminal responsibility As they say okay, so what would she get for that dough guys? Mental hospital for how long? I said so I just arrived in the end. Yeah, what does that mean? No, whatever they want Not long enough that it could be two months. I agree I should be longer than that. I think she should do what Andrea Yates did. Yes. She refuses to leave That's what I'd be for Lindsey Clancy doing because that she drowned ability to make right yeah, she fought five five She drowned five kids. She got guilty first And then actually got a retrial because the prosecution lied oh boy about a CSI episode They said oh she was copying the CSI episode oh boy And it turns out she wasn't yeah, and they lied for no reason So I got her a retrial and then they found her and and Texas She got NGRI in Texas. Wow, that's that's big But she refuses she's able to come up for these I guess whether whatever the equivalent of parole is

50:58And the mental hospital she comes up for it and she just refuses it and I was like okay, that's the right thing to do in your I agree with that. She's she's sorry. She's she's she's paralyzed mental hospital for indeterminate and she has to live with the fact that she killed her kids and she owned it She owned it. It's not Patrick did her someone out, but she's gonna own this and she wanted to die So she didn't want to live a day so every day that passes she's living an agony guilty or not guilty I want to give you guys my proof for why I think she was just on that side of knowing what she was doing So the way I see it she knew enough of what she was doing even if she was in a significantly Addled depressed state I believe the prosecution's theory I think they got it right even though they did change certain aspects of their theory The evidence ultimately showed what it showed which is that she felt like she needed to be relieved of the burden of her children So she could commit suicide and it's very irrational, but it doesn't mean she's insane and here are the reasons She created the errand for Patrick. She ordered the takeout food. She sent him to CVS now a lot of people said she googled How long it would take to get there? She looked on Google maps

52:00Because she was afraid of being alone. Well if she was thinking that straight She wouldn't have sent him out in the first place I think she wanted to see how long he was gonna be gone because then she would know how much time she had She had previously told Patrick Now people don't trust Patrick, but she also told her mom about the intrusive thoughts about harming the kids So the thoughts are Pre-existing prior to any sort of alleged psychosis. They're just these intrusive thoughts which belong to a person who's thinking if in a very depressed state She also had no prior command hallucinations or diagnosis of psychosis and the killing itself required Step by step by step decisions that a person in a fit of psychosis might not have been able to make Isolating the one she thought would give the most trouble right which was her son her three-year-old son And then going for the oldest one and then going for the baby and I think this these actions show her to be just on that line of She knew what she was doing I think part of that could be a misconception though of psychosis because People misunderstand what it can look like it can look like many different things

53:02It can be hallucinations disorganized thinking making no sense and people think oh if you're experiencing psychosis You can't plan anything or you can't appear normal at all and I don't think that's true I mean doctor resonant like I had said he diagnosed her with post-bottom psychosis and I think it's possible To have your baseline be psychotic, but then your actions to look different And again, and that makes this very difficult right, but this is where I'm just I come down to This is all towards the reasonable doubt like for everything you said I would counter with all of that And then the jury would have to think about that and say okay Well, psychosis can wax and wanes like doses can look different ways you can plan even because that's the misconception See, oh you can't plan or do anything experiencing psychosis and that's not true There's many different versions of psychosis and if you talked to women that have experienced post-bottom psychosis And the varying different kinds of men that I've even experienced psychosis and look at them You'd be surprised because there's different versions of it like they don't all just seem like out of there

54:02They just seem there's different ways it can look and I think that's important to emphasize And again the altruistic philosophide it's if you have you can still have it's all mind It's all what's in your mind is all what's in your intent So if you're killing them out of love if you truly believe this is how they're going to be safe and And that can be proven that she was that senile to think that way She didn't have mouse attend and it's it's it can sound crazy enough to be not guilty You know you're seizing on something very important because the prosecution basically concedes some form of Altruistic philosophide which as you've defined is Basically, she thought she was doing something good by killing her kids And they basically say that that's what she thought she thought these kids can't live on this planet without me I can't kill myself until I kill them That conceding that right there some people might think what you're thinking Which is that that right there? If you're thinking that you are so beyond the pale you are not what your former self was you're out of it Right now I would come down and again even me acknowledging that to you might be hey

55:03That's some reasonable doubt to me I still just think the actions were rational enough that We can't say she didn't know what she was doing and to to Danny's point and something a point we both made If you're gonna excuse this if you're gonna say Okay, we draw the line where you're no longer yourself and you do something really messed up Um, and you're not guilty by reason of insanity because you must be insane That's gonna start justifying a lot of things that we don't want to see just two things here now So two Well one I think a lot of people just don't even like NGRI being a thing anyway Like a lot of the arguments I'm seeing they don't want anyone. I don't like it to get There you go and then also because everybody's gonna use it Well, not everyone. I mean people here's a thing something can be true And people might try to misuse it But it doesn't mean that things not true anymore like I always say the example narcissist will try to twist and distort things like spiritual principles Doesn't mean the spiritual principles wrong It just means that bad actors can try to manipulate anything to avoid accountability So certainly people will try but correctly most people don't get it

56:05Now they don't get actually not guilty by reason of insanity now in terms of the actual like Lindsay what she did from September to January I mean she'd really really tried to get help It seemed like she was desperate to get help So I just it doesn't make sense to me. I don't know what a motive would be for her To sell all the sudden like oh yes, I need to get rid of them after I'm talking in my diary about how I want to be a better mother How I'm trying to connect my youngest son like where is the motive there? I think she stopped trying I think the weight was too much You know not to her not to say to her credit But to her partial defense partially to contextualize it partially to explain why she would do this in a somewhat rational way The weight was too much and she just said I don't care what happens. I'm gonna do this, you know I think that's kind of how it shook out But it could also be cut in the way that well Okay, if if she arrived at that state doesn't that de facto mean she's insane So let me ask you guys. This is definitely controversial. Okay. When do we put people in

57:06When do we say Lindsay Clancy you can't be out in public and put her in a mental hospital till she's better and then them kids would be alive When do we do that in America? I think we have to bring that back guys and it it sucks But if we did that Lindsay Clancy's children would be alive. She should have been she should have been mentally committed Where's the problem I am Patrick and Lindsay's mother both They didn't tell the professionals that she was having thoughts upon on the kids. I did hear that yes Lindsay didn't either for that matter. Yes, but here's the other part about that you mentioned this earlier When you're mentally ill you're not at 100% you're not at your like fullest capacity And when you're not at your fullest capacity You're not able to advocate for yourself and do the things that are best for you So obviously she should have told her herself But in the lieu of like what was going on So the professionals it's up to them to ask better questions to get better answers like I'm going to put more responsibility on the professionals because They're supposed to be at 100% not Lindsay's the one suffering So yeah, of course in the perfect world she would she would tell on herself

58:09And I'm also a big advocate of asking everyone okay What would you do if you were in their shoes at the same situation happened to you What would you do if you're a Patrick What would you do if you were Lindsay What would you do if you're your her medical professionals? What would you do if you're Lindsay's family like that's ultimately One of the most important questions to ask moving forward here right to Billy yeah, go ahead and did the only thing I want to say and I'm not sticking up for mental health professionals But they probably have rules attorney that they can't keep them There's certain ways they can only keep certain people because it's against their rights So we have to change that I'm telling you and I know You're gonna think well people are gonna be mentally committed that don't really need to be mentally committed because we had that years ago I get that but we have to do something There's people on this Las Vegas strip right now that shouldn't be walking down that Las Vegas strip They're insane probably hurt people before We had a guy stab four girls outside the wind two years ago and kill three of them Okay, he wasn't mentally right So my thing is our mental health system is 1,000 percent broken and until we fix this we're gonna have this keep going

59:12I mean December 15th she called with Patrick Psychiatric nurse practitioner Rebecca Jalata and that was her worst day and Lindsay wasn't even able to advocate for herself or talk for herself at all That day and for all the people that think Patrick didn't care He called her with her that day and he did multiple sessions with Rebecca Jalata and Lindsay So I'm like, I don't understand where all this Patrick didn't care things came from But that was a moment there where she should have went to the hospital now through her discredit Lindsay refused December 15th But then Patrick made her towards the end of December into January he made her go She said I don't want to go he said you're going And he did and she did go but the problem was she was there on a weekend There was a skeleton crew one day was a holiday And then on Thursday she requested to leave because her child's birthday was the next day And they let her go but that was the time right there to keep her But I'm all four people being committed against their will because people can't have it both ways So if you want to prevent things like this Then some freedoms have to go on the other end right that's just

1:00:16I agree with you so when you're When you're sick and you have a disease and you take medicine You take the medicine for the symptoms You know And not necessarily to get better you know And A lot of psychiatrists a lot of therapists aren't treating The actual source of what's getting you there what's what's depressed what's putting you in the seat right now talking to me Um She just got more medicine more medicine and she didn't get better She didn't get the therapy or the help which leads me to believe That the source of her unhappiness and the source was home and Regardless of disease you have you have your therapist you have your but you have a caregiver You have that person with you fighting that with you that and it should be your spouse should be your loved one And yeah, okay, I I did hear he did some calls and helped and I know we're on the same side here But but I actually I don't I don't think he was that supportive. I think he almost she was a headache to him And she was the mother of the mother of of this kid so like he had to like you know out of

1:01:18diligence, you know be there, but um Why was she sick for so long? Why did she not get better? Why are there all these rumors that he was Gone with someone else and stuff and because it was there and it was happening and so I think it was all in the surface I think what was really driving her crazy It was how depressed how unhappy how alone she was um And again, it just goes into this in her crazy like how sad and despair and the pressure She really was and I feel for um, I'm kind of going to tangent now, but everything you just said can be explained By postpartum depression postpartum psychosis and just other mental health issues, right? So your relationship it can contribute But is it the primary factor for being that bad? I don't think in this case not granted everything else was greener on the other thing I will say yes There are narcissists in psychopaths that they do Destroy their partner, but I think that looks different than what we saw in this case Now a lot of people will disagree with me on that most probably a lot of ladies will disagree

1:02:22But I just think in this case I mean, and no one's talked the Patrick no one no one here is talked the Patrick. No, no one here is talked to Lindsay But I guarantee if I were to speak to Patrick Lindsay I would fair it out pretty quick. Okay, Lindsay tell me about your relationship with Patrick And I would know real quick But all people have done Because I mean, this is what I do I post people on this true true true So like I would ask her and she and I would know within 20 minutes. Okay. Yeah, this is what's going on I've opinion on that um People live with a lot of shame all the time Especially when you're married with someone and and you have a family and you want you're all about appearances You want everyone to think everyone's good. I think She couldn't even admit to her parents to her friends that Patrick was cheating on me because it makes her look bad It makes him look bad. It makes everything she stands for my whole family a sham and people really just they That was a thing I had I go why why did if there was infidelity or like how come people didn't know and I I think I think people some people did know But um, I think she was so ashamed. I mean, I've been in therapy and it took me months to tell my therapist

1:03:27Things you know like my therapist things and a safe safe setting It's your shame is a very and I think she was such an a just sedated spare that that was about part of it I mean that parts fair, but You're having a premise in there that it's not true like we know there's no Proof that he was cheating. So it's possible. I'm not going to get out completely But I'm just saying people are running with it as if it's definitely true I mean they cite oh that New York trip and his wife lives earth current wife lived in New York So he must have been she yeah, but that's not really proof. There's no was in New York his work He was in Boston. It's in the same overalls eastern seaboard The odds that he would be in New York at some point and I seen these pictures that you mentioned about those that Whatever that exercise club was but I've also heard that could have been AI doctored image or people saying how he moved on too fast Or look at how similar she looks to Lindsay. Oh, yeah, it's like well The do only narcissist and psychopaths have a type Yeah, I know obviously a lot of ladies get with guys and look pretty similar and the same with men get with women That look pretty similar. Does that mean there are no are some sisters like a path

1:04:30No, I agree with that's a people are saying Oh, that's proof Cuz I always ask people for proof on a billy bushes post. Yeah, he was going off about Patrick's disgrace He's so abusive and he's this and I ripped him and I ripped them on YouTube too and I said What are your examples of him being abusive? And then people were laughing me out of the building I'm like tell me what what's your example and they said well you moved on too fast Or he was going on all these boy slides out. What the fuck were these boys like? Yeah, where is it the people who kind of go on these boys nights out he went on a New York trip San Francisco trip with his daughter and a brunch that Lindsay encouraged him to go on and Lindsay was also encouraging him to spend time with the older kids Because she wanted to bond with her youngest So I'm like I was not seeing no these are examples those examples occurred over the course of the many months of the relevant time period of the case I mean the guy was not going out and going to the strip club going to the bar every night Just having a time the guy was probably suffering he probably to your point was not very well suited to deal with a major mental health crisis under his roof That is possible, I think but yeah, I think people are almost having their own

1:05:34Psychotic delusions about this guy being like the grand villain. I just don't I don't see it And of course, you know people are gonna watch this and they're gonna say oh four guys get around a table And they're making Patrick Clancy the victim in this case rather than kids or Lindsay But you know how it is. I think I just go where the fact show me and the facts in this case show me that Patrick Clancy is absolutely a victim of all this I mean what do you think it's gonna so there's gonna be a mistrial. I mean, I mean there is yeah So I've heard something right before I got here that so Kevin was so coming running that was so close Imagine being a turn it you know that fighting for seven weeks and being one human being away. That's crazy Yeah, it's not like they can tie what the justice system supposed to be one human big. It's got to be a not it's got to be unanimous. Yeah, true Susie's problem, right? I don't think is it every state has to be unanimous. I don't think yeah criminal I think criminal they do the number you may be able to have 12 or nine or six jerseys But I believe that I think every state you they have to be there's a couple states with nine jerseys. Yeah, most are 12

1:06:36Okay, so there's a thing it's just their burden the burden and mass asus it's being on the prosecution It just changes everything to me and I think a lot of people their problem is really just with mass asus it stay at all Yeah, if you want it to be different have it be more like California can believe that people wanted to be more like California Really? So it's wanted to be more like California. Wow The more stringent rules on does it put the burden to prove insanity on the defense as an affirmative defense Yes, yes, so some some states that's a good point some states do it where the prosecution has to prove their own case Beyond a reasonable doubt that the murder was committed and they have to disprove certain things beyond a reasonable doubt like Disproving insanity, but other states say the prosecution's got to prove the murder defense Then it's your turn you got to prove insanity and they don't have to I don't think prove beyond a reasonable doubt insanity They probably have to prove it as more likely true than not or something, but different states do it differently And look I think the jurors in this case I believe are using a different legal standard than the insanity defense I don't necessarily have a huge problem with the way that they this insanity Defense has developed over the common law tradition since the days that common law began in England and it's basically

1:07:42They have different ways of wording it. Do you understand the nature of your own actions or by mental defect? Do you not do can you conform your conduct with the law? Do you know right from wrong or does a mental defect render you unable? This all is basically getting at do you know what the hell you're doing or do you not know where you are? You know, and that is what it's getting at and I think the proof just shows that she she did know where she was She knew what she was doing she took deliberate measured steps. She sent her husband out She went one by one isolating the the most troublesome kid in her mind And then you know, she did what she did I think what a lot of people are doing is they understand that but they want to move the standard to be more lenient on the defendant to say If you've basically become an unrecognizable version of yourself that is really tormented by bad thoughts Then you're there for insane and you're not guilty And so I think the the 11 jurors I disagree with them. I think they've they've based on the evidence there They're changing the standard to be something that in my view it's not I think if you apply the standard strictly on the facts She knew what she was doing enough to be guilty here I say I disagree with that because everything you just said like the planning etc

1:08:47She can also do that under psychosis too And to me that makes the reasonable doubt argument a thing We're and the judge Sullivan kept on saying you have to obey the law here The reasonable doubt the prosecution has to prove it I just think there's too much doubt when you look at all the information from September to January That you're read your past that 90% threshold that she definitely should be convicted Now if this was another state maybe I'd say a little bit differently I would have a different thought but in mass associates Now I just think it didn't reach that threshold again And it's impossible to prove it one way or the other here too right? That's the thing that makes these kind of cases tricky. Oh, yeah I agree with you no one can get in someone's head and no for sure It's all a third-person person observation based on what Professionals opinions of people observing their behavior Because can anyone truly know what's in someone's mind? No, not really So it's tricky. I mean, this is how I'm saying. It's not a cut and dry thing I just think considering the burdens on the prosecution. I don't know. I don't think they achieved it Yeah, in 2026 now too with jury badgering and like

1:09:51And internet and people talking and you know and influence and stuff like it's impossible They should have been sequestered. Yeah, I think that's true It's impossible to get a fair. Yeah, so there is all this outside external stuff that's going on these these jurors as well So I actually do think that helps lintis clay. It did public pressure is huge and the public was on her side I think we have already seen cases which I won't name where public pressure played a massive role in making a person be found guilty or found not guilty I think we're going to see that more and more especially with the sophistication of the internet people literally these you know Online sleuths will see people who they believe to be the jurors leaving or they're they're permitted to sit in the in the courtroom Because the it's open to the public for the most part and they'll watch them And they'll somehow find a way to figure out who they are and they'll dox them The internet enables that you know online dissemination of information you can find out who people are do a people search on them find out where they live It's yeah, it's something that needs to be dealt with very seriously. I say this this case is making a point And making a good point for not allowing cameras in the courtroom. Yeah, like I used to always be against that

1:10:53Oh, they should always be cameras in there, but this case I'm thinking like you know what People have really lost their minds. I think in terms of this case and again like I disagree that she should be guilty But I find my worst disagreements or with the people that think Patrick did it. Yeah, I find that I find myself getting more passionate about that And then we can go into the gender war aspect of that too, but I think just the fact that this was on camera This adds fuel to the fire if there was no cameras in there And this was a Nick Reiner thing where you're only seeing the portraits this little hand sketches that they do I don't think people would be able to come up with a lot of these theories because they wouldn't pay attention to it It would be a spectacle. It's a total spectacle It's gripped them. I mean some of the other cases of this nature would have been absolutely, you know Out of this world famous, but they've been just there's a court reporter There's a sketch artist and so you don't really hear about it. So there's some interest But yeah, getting the TV cameras in there does make a huge difference. I got a question for all these we're all You know, I know you're on social media. I make a living from social media

1:11:54Or and I'm really cut my own whatever here, but uh, do you think social media's hurt in these cases? Uh, on one hand, I like for business like For my business that this is a thing on Facebook. I mean, it's good for me. Do I mean I've been doing it for six years But in terms of the world. I think this is gotten this a philosophical thing here. I used to always think Free speech is always a good thing and the cure for bad speech is better speech But what I'm learning now is if people don't agree with the better speech and put their head in the sand to think something else What good was that better speech that I'm learning now that oh my goodness People can really have completely different thoughts with the same facts With and they twist into stored facts or invent facts or speculate on facts So it's really troubling to me that so many people Can see reality in such a different way and this is something I said the other day too I said I support people Break it up over this case Why do I say that because if you find out that you're a values and you see reality so differently than your partner

1:12:58And you want to be serious with them and have a family with them This is a pretty big thing. So it's not the fact that they disagree But how much they disagree if you're a values and you see reality is that different? You should fucking break up like yeah again if you're a guy And you don't think the pastor did it and you think whatever you think and then you're with a woman Oh, Patrick did it. I'm like see the world different I would I'll tell you what if someone saw it that much differently than me I would lose trust them in a little bit. I would lose trust in their judgment Yeah, and let me just throw this out there. I'm gonna go back to the social media think about this too You know, I'm a conservative. So of course I get all conservative stuff You know, I mean I'm the getting no liberal stuff. I'm getting no nothing But say I'm not saying you are but say you're a liberal you're gonna get thrown all kind of liberal stuff If you think she's not guilty you're getting all non guilty videos. I'm getting all she's horrible She should be in debt penalty So what I'm saying is social media is brainwashing all of us true I think I think that's true to an extent, but as I'm sitting here thinking about it It's almost like the public forum moved from the physical town square where there's some guy

1:14:03You know raising the newspaper and everyone's yelling and arguing and speaking in tongues and whatnot And it moved it to online now there's two schools of thought and I think it could be either way Some people only interact with content they agree with and then those people are gonna be in an echo chamber And are worse off than being in the town square and hearing everyone ever all sides of things yelled out Just one side yeah, but I think I think maybe more than half of the people actually engage with content that they disagree with too So they are getting both sides So possibly the budding of the heads online combined with the constant just doom scroll dopamine rush Might actually lead to people having a more full some picture than the person who goes in the town square And then goes home and like lights their candle and is like I don't know what the hell's going on You know what I say people to follow me on Facebook I they do get that because I have a unique opinion I think that she should have been not guilty because there's too much reasonable doubt But I also defend Patrick. So I get a little bit of everybody ever once hated you And I agree with you guys this because you can look up I'm just gonna go with TikTok because I just looked at it. I have a half a million followers on TikTok

1:15:0670% of my followers are women. Okay, because women like true crime and I do true crime But I would say 25% of them are hate following That's more than that. They do probably more They DM me and say stuff come in and I look and they follow me like I'm thinking how do you hate me this much? But you follow me but they do they your haters will watch your videos more than your fans will your followers whether they really I honestly so I Got a surprisingly low amount of hate when I started getting numbers on Instagram and TikTok because I mix like Kind of just like a straight-up covering of the news with no opinion with beatboxing of all things and people People think it's funny as a lawyer that I'll just like rip a beat in the middle of the news It's kind of my little my niche my lane. That's cool. Even so. I'll still have people in my comments being like Why are you reporting on a legal case or a product recall and beatboxing? Don't you think you know? Don't you what a you know, but then I look and they follow me so I'm like you I've said to some people before I'm like Will you follow me though? Thanks for the follow

1:16:10Can you support it? It depends on what the reason is I think I'll there's a plenty of people who are together that are only together on the most Tenuous of grounds and I think if people's To step away from the case a little bit not to weasel out of your question If people's values are different enough that's like the biggest thing I think people need to at the outset have values you need to have strong values of whatever they are Whatever whether they're religious or some sort of secular values or what have you you have to have a A significant amount of them match with your you know girlfriend boyfriend spouse or whatever and this case might be a kind of a litmus test for some people as to What am I willing to believe? What do I disbelieve? What are the problems in America? And I think that yeah, it could potentially show people to be too disparate in what they believe from their spouse or boyfriend or girlfriend or whatever Because I first say people can break up for whatever reason they want to that's number one So if you're bad feeling about somebody for whatever reason by all means break up right And I'm not even saying it's mandatory to break up if you have a different opinion

1:17:10I'm just saying that if it really shows to you in highlights how differently you see the world and you have different values Then it's gonna be tough to do life with that person and make big decisions with that person So this case could be what brings those issues beneath the surface to the surface. Yeah, that's true I don't I think why this case really strikes a nerve with a lot of people is because Lot of people can relate to it in a certain way. There's so many feelings that are involved here man women Um There's in Fidel it potentially there's There's there's there's there's the right. Yeah, I don't like doing it. It's rules. It's rules You know, uh and it's it's it's not seeing what role that each person is playing and and and um And I I think people can relate so much of this and people get so sensitive about this case because it's if everyone can You know relate to it somehow, you know that that's where I'm out with that. Yeah I do think some people are saying hey look I had the blues or I had a little bit of postpartum depression after I had children

1:18:10So you know, hey, I can relate to Lindsey Clancy and I would just push back on that a little bit because I think her case is Fundamentally different from the average case because of the obvious result where things Creaned out of control and she killed children. This is very serious So I don't necessarily know that people should feel like they relate to that now That doesn't mean they have to hate her or believe she's guilty But at that point maybe don't feel like you relate in that way Maybe look and count your blessings that you had support systems and maybe she didn't maybe her psychiatry Lindsey psychiatrists failed her maybe even Patrick was just being absentee Because he was grieving or maybe he there was infidelity not that we've seen evidence of that at least I have and but you know I do think this is not remarkable case because it's relatable It should not be remarkable because it's relatable We should not normalize the killing of children I think it can be remarkable because perhaps there were such so many system failures in place sure plus a final Grievous action that make it sensational and terrifying and terrible But I don't know I think wording it is relatable makes it it kind of softens what actually happened which is a children died

1:19:16I know what women mean when they're saying they're saying I've been through post-partum depression All worse and they say I could have been me now granted could it really have been them? I don't think it could have been them maybe not could have like in reality probably not because post-partum psychosis One to three bursts out of every thousand Is post-partum psychosis 10,000 bursts a day in America So that means on any given day one to three out every thousand right that's a couple people right there Yeah, that's our 20 people a day of the people with post-partum psychosis Four percent of them not a small number four percent of them end up killing one of their children within the first year One in 25 so wow that's how bad post-partum psychosis is so yeah to bring up your argument again If someone if someone is diagnosed with post-partum psychosis I would be for some temporary removal Until you know Like remove that one from the children until you know she's safe if they're diagnosed with them and maybe stay with relatives Something yeah, so DCS or DCFS whatever they call it in the state do

1:20:19But this is where it comes back to me looking at Lindsay and saying she told a few people about her intrusive thoughts of hurting the kids She definitely avoided mandatory reporters which are health care providers others who have a legal obligation to tell You know the department of children and family services or whatever they call it in Massachusetts And that would mean her kids are taken away. It does show a bit of calculation But otherwise I understand now doctor Resnick said that her psychotic belief was that if she said that and the kids went to the hospital She would lose them for good. So he had said that was her psychotic But I think that's a belief anyone could have even an irrational state you could think I could lose my kids forever If someone found out I want to hurt them, you know And that's fair. I mean like I said there's some case. There's some points the prosecution has in this case There's hard to completely disprove right, but that's where I think to me It's just a reasonable doubt comes in so okay sending him to like CVS and take out Okay, like that's not doesn't look very good withholding things from the therapist

1:21:20Doesn't look very good not wanting to go to women in infants or McLean House Doesn't look very good But then when you look at the other things going on with mental health by polar too and whether it was pipe host Part of psychosis or not Those were all contributing factors too. So I think it's just tough And I just didn't get enough. I didn't get enough evidence that yes Definitely should and in terms of the jury and what it looked like I mean 11 people agreed yep with you and me on that and only one person is Massachusetts It's a democratic state If that was in Texas, she'd be getting a debt penalty that one person See that one person if they're willing they're gonna be on Matt Walsh's show And Megan Kelly's show and we also they'd be on Nancy Grayson show he'll be a hero my prediction My prediction is that I think it is a guy I think he's gonna want to get as far away from this as possible because they plucked him right out of the community Like they do with jurors and I think he is going to very much want to avoid the spotlight is that's what I'd predict That depends that depends you know keep in mind two other men did did pick not guilty as well

1:22:20So did you yeah, so he was the lone man who who's won one person? And was it necessarily a man did they know for sure? I think they do they kept saying he yeah one man And two men didn't because I know we all know you mean two men said not guilty two men to not get I'm shocked about yeah, so everyone said not guilty, but the one guy. Yeah, that's crazy This is read about that that's what it was I mean well, I know that you brought our good point I'll give good give you guys you brought up a good point where you I think you think yeah, she probably did it But they didn't prove she she did it mentally like he that's what you're saying You you saying if it was in any other state guilty, but in Massachusetts they'd improve I'm saying especially since it's mass assueses okay, the burdens on the prosecution they didn't prove I just don't think that they went behind the reasonable doubt that she definitely was saying it was in the right state of mind And understood exactly what she did and an appreciated defect I just think there's too much doubt to do it now if the roles were reversed and the If the burdens on the defense I'd be I'd be more on the fence than at that point because I would say for the same reasons you didn't prove it right

1:23:22Like how do I was it really it'd be close it to me this one goes to But who has the advantage? Defense has the advantage Yeah, so I think that's one of the big reasons I mean I played poker too and I still think I still think though that she was experiencing post-partners Psychosis and all that mental well stuff was a thing and that doesn't say that doesn't mean it should always be an excuse Because like I said narcissists psychopaths and whomever they should be guilty. Yeah, yeah people who rate they should be guilty They shouldn't use hormones as an excuse and we got to bring this up guys right before we came on I told you there was another lady now in illinois's where you're from I don't know her name off hand, but to did she killed her she suffricated her two-year-old son And hours before this she's telling her family about that Clancy about Lindsey Clancy and she was obsessed with the case now she murdered her kid. It does appear to be a copycat So you're gonna have caught you by the guilty. Yeah, no, I don't know anything about it Yeah, just that's what it is just I just did a video. Okay, I came in. I didn't know post-partners psychosis. We've got severe

1:24:24I didn't even and in a weird way I'm almost kind of glad that there's gonna be suppressant now or something like that There's gonna be more some attention to the positives that this case brings up is oak. I think That's why I think a lot of people relate to this too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it takes the attention away From what it should be about mental health mental health those problems psychosis What should the system have in place to prevent something like this? Yeah, this has to do something now We have to do something about this. I was shocked to learn that a few hundred cases per year involve a parent killing a child I was shocked to learn it's a few hundred in the US which I there's hundreds of millions of people, but that's more You'd think it was only the rare few Now I do think and this is how the media kind of operates Anytime it happens they're gonna go. Oh my god. Look, it's happening again And everyone's gonna go all these killings are happening, but the reality is you just don't hear about most of them Yeah, sure here's some statistics And this is why I think our biggest crisis in the world is mental health not drugs not emigrate not a it's mental health issues is one out of every 33 children

1:25:25That is caught in sex trafficking or what it is from a parent selling their child It is one out of every three One out of every 33% no 33% of Children who have been sexually assaulted is by a parent as well So one of every three is from a parent from in the house and one 33% of sex trafficking cases are from a parent selling their own child Yeah, so this is a mental health issue You know like it's way bigger You know like we're throwing Epstein files with all this stuff out and I get it But how are you gonna stop sex trafficking in sex abuse in the own home from the own parents, you know And I'm gonna tell you something I'm gonna tell you story that happened with me I had a guy that I that I arrested for molestin a nine-year-old boy, right? Went through trial everything all that that stuff and Ten years later I'm watching the news ten years later and my victim is now the predator My victim is now arrested for molestin kids ten years later after I tried his uh, you know predator It's crazy, but that you're right. That's how it's even in sexual assault

1:26:27It's a cycle and the same thing you're saying hey, you know, I agree with you guys on that You know mental health and mental health to me meant the hopes the biggest problem I agree with you mental health is the biggest problem in the United States right now because we do nothing about it Right we'll talk about solutions if you want to protect children make sure your school systems are enforcing Rules where the children have to show up to school make sure you're training the teachers to identify signs of abuse Because that is one of the top ways it's reported bruises kids acting kind of weird Talking in ways that you know talking beyond their years about things they shouldn't understand sexually And teachers or others will the school nurse will report it as a state prosecutor I worked briefly in a unit dealing with child abuse now this unit was a civil unit where you were basically Bringing the civil hammer down not putting them in prison, but removing the children's civilly from the custody of the parents temporarily or permanently and For all the cases we had a huge high the highest volume of cases. I've ever had at any at any legal job. I've had You know 150 cases and that would all 20 of us had that many and I'm sure we were missing so many others because a lot of times

1:27:36The way that the parent was Was basically told on by someone was by pure chance somebody a kid happened to scratch his his back And his shirt comes up and there's a bruise and grandparent or uncle or Family friend sees it and they say can I see that and there's a huge bruise how'd you get that oh? No, you know, I don't want to talk about it and you know It's probably the parent and they're protecting them and then DCFS gets involved and it's so important that Children go to school and that teachers are A prize to how to identify abuse and that's one way that this can be resolved because when kids just when parents just have their kid in their house I mean there's no telling you know what can happen if they're not going to school and they're being neglected and so forth Yeah, I mean another interesting point about this whole thing here is With Patrick a lot of people are very upset because he was listening to Lindsay I think that's very fascinating too and I think there's a bigger question to ask for men Which is you got to know when to do the right thing Regardless of what she says sometimes now. That's a very controversial opinion. I said at the other day people are very mad

1:28:41I'm operating the fifth on this one my wife's watching Come on But I would say hey this case if you're a man Hey attention to how parents are participating treated out there So he listen to his wife People are not giving him any charitable interpretations. They're blaming him. There's a lot of people blaming him for what went on and I'm saying okay guys Take note of that. So what does that mean for you? It means you should do what you think is right and the woman she might not be happy with you in the moment But if you think it's right you have to do what you think is right regardless now doesn't mean you don't listen to her That doesn't mean you know empathize with her But you listen but then do what you think is right anyway because if you don't You all you have to do is cite Patrick in this case and say look at how people are treating him I don't want to be the next Patrick and when it comes to your kids safety Can you take any chances? I don't think so. So I think that's another lesson that men can be yeah I mean, and I'll give the the less controversial opinion of even if it's your brother or your father or your mother whoever it is if someone in your life is In such dire straits mentally that they're gonna hurt themselves or others

1:29:44I think people should feel more empowered and feel more willpower to do something do anything you possibly can And I think a lot of people give up because they're like this person is headstrong I can't but you have to have that moral compass that you're talking about where you say I don't care what's going on this person is either having a mental health crisis or struggle with addiction or what have you and step in and Persist and even if it makes them very angry and even if people around are saying hey Just come on just cool off. He's gonna do what he's gonna do You might need to have that that guiding light that this could go very wrong for them They could hurt themselves. They could hurt someone else So step in and and be strong and do what you need to do. I've always believed a lot of men fail with that Yeah, they do because they don't provide what I call I'll say it again positive masculine containment It's a great term that people should know more about yeah But it's when you fend for the people in your life not just your woman But everybody you take care of them as if they're a part of you You can't hurt them without also hurting yourself And that is something that a lot of men especially the passive men they don't provide that they they're afraid to be considered Controlling or an asshole, but masculine containment is not that it's like actually the loving form of like the way

1:30:50I think all parents supposed to treat their kids like They're in charge right parents are in charge, but they're also should be doing it in a loving way right not and granted There's certainly a lot of bad parents out there certain lot of parents that shouldn't be having kids right There's bad mothers and there's bad fathers. That's no joke. They're certainly out there Yeah, it's great with you. I to Patrick. I just don't think she was a priority You know like like um, and I don't think he Was good enough or did his due diligence as a man as a leader as a protector to make sure she was okay Like after a long time after years of this You have to I would quit my job I would stop all priorities and I just figure out how do we get you better and what you said is is right to where Where where was the men in her life like I finally feel Kevin writing to in is is is finally this man Who's finally like stepping up for her and being her protector and and after he gave the closing arguments and he sat down She grabbed his hand. I thought that was like such an awesome moment and stuff like that because finally um

1:31:53But if that's my sister for example, or if that's someone I know you know and and and she's married and she has someone else And there's an even another man in her life. I'm calling that guy I'm calling the husband and saying what's going on how come nothing's getting better here? What is the problem? Um, and it does take people you know kind of pushing in and and and and probing a little bit to see Um, if they need help but but at the same time it's and that's where the shame comes into like she didn't she didn't She didn't want to admit it that she needed help. She felt so alone. This is where I this is what I feel um And I just wish um like her dad's in the pit like what watching this whole case I'm like, where's a dad? You know like it like and just and he he's quiet and he's sitting in the back and And when I found out they got money from go fun me like from all this Pissing off. Oh, like parents got my parents got money too after she a million Did you know that no that pissed me off that's crazy and I was like where's it if my daughter is sick for this many years

1:32:53And she's got a husband and he doesn't care and he's not there and I would be calling him once a week What's the deal? What's the update blah blah blah? Um, that's a really good. That's a really good point I think that I'm torn a little bit because on one hand Maybe she was in such a degraded state that there was no helping her and that this was an inevitable result unless she were committed But maybe there's a way where the people in her life rally around her and do whatever it takes and there is something There is a will and there is a way and I hadn't actually thought about that before. I mean where where was the support? Maybe there should have been more support Maybe she should have never been alone with her thoughts. I think both of those things can be true I think yeah, there could have been more support for her I think could we don't necessarily know exactly what it was like behind closed doors for them Like I said if he's passive and you said Lindsey's dad also is quiet And didn't seem to step up wouldn't be surprising then if Lindsey goes for a man that's like her father, right? We've seen that before yeah, yeah, so I wonder But it does seem like he wasn't going the extra mile

1:33:56But again, I don't know exactly what was going on He just seems to be like a passive person in a way like when I listened to him on the first couple days of the trial I never got like an asshole narcissist vibe from him. I got more of a passive like Living like your woman being charged kind of thing like maybe she was the run running the show And now that she's off He doesn't know what to do It's fair he seems like a very passive guy. I could a lot of guys just want to say I don't want to make any trouble I don't want to look like a jerk. I don't want to look like You know, I'm demanding or controlling So I'm just going to kind of like take my hands off the wheel and let things be how they are I think Lindsey was more she's she was described as being more type A Which I think is code for she was the organized one she was driving the plans She ordered takeout on that night, you know She was but of course that wasn't just because she drove the plans. That's because she wanted to send him out and kill the kids That's not the only Sorry, I had to inject a little dark humor there, but no, I totally I totally get what you guys are saying And I think I agree to it to the sense she's type A

1:34:56I'm not that's the first I've heard of that But if it makes sense, I'm that he would be more passive passive people wind up with type A people all the time So that's what it seems like to me And so again, what could men do differently if they were a Patrick I'd say that masculine containment part like Calling her medical professional is on his own without her like having her sign the Hip-a-forms you can talk Right and like maybe that might have been smart. Yeah, especially I mean or and tell them about those thoughts of harming the kids I don't know what was going on with his mind to not do that like maybe she told him you better not tell them about this I don't know interesting. I don't know what I know that's a good point. I think he's tapped out I don't think he'd I think he's indifferent. I got him I use the word narcissists but not narcissists don't love anything They they just they love they love themselves. They love the parents is they they love no headaches They just want like ease, you know, right? And I think Yeah, I mean we know these many guys like that just emotionless and she was trying to get to them and just yeah passive

1:35:57Not a man's man all that kind of stuff when she was alone. What should happen to her? Yeah, what should happen to the hospitals? Right. Okay. Well, what if what if forget all forget all of the prescribed legal results What would you where would you have her be if you were the dictator for me personally I'm saying Putting her in a prison in a wheelchair when she certainly is in a severely messed up mental state I don't know that that's necessary But the way that the civil commitment process works it's generally within the discretion I mean, I know some states there's a hearing that has to be had to determine if they're okay I mean in Illinois there's something like that before a person can be released etc But I would say she should be in a mental facility and it should be for most of the rest of her life or the rest of her life But that's not how it works But that's what I would say because I think she's arrived at such a dark place put her there and then that also sends a message to other people who maybe it will provide some little deterrent effect that they won't do it But again, if you're in the state that she was in maybe you can't be deterred. I don't know I'm agreeing with you now. I know that can't happen

1:36:58But I agree. I think she should be put in the mental hospital for 20 years At least at least Get out of the mark, but guilty right like yeah, yeah, yeah, okay Because this precedent is in law is everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I agree Massachusetts law is weird It's weird that the prosecution has a burden on that so to prove a negative I still think this is gonna get settled somehow and I think defense is gonna want to settle this because no one wins if this keeps going No one wins, but I don't think she wants to spend a day in prison if she the only way it would get settled if she pleads to a lesser Yes, man slaughter. Yeah, something's fine for her But but she doesn't want to go to prison for even a day. Yeah, she'd be prison So she could I mean, I don't know if there's a world where she they allow her to plead not guilty by reason of insanity and they take that Pleee and then they put her in and in and in and you know the psychiatric hospital Maybe but I think the process 20 years or something. Yeah, but I don't think you can agree to a term I don't think that's possible So I don't think the prosecution can agree I think they got to go for prison because she said they said she intentionally killed her kids So Kevin was he was very proud at the end of the trial today like he was calling it a win

1:38:03Like we want you know like court of public opinion we want we convince 11 jurors that we won here So I don't think And he was really hard on that one guy saying you wasted all our time seven weeks time, you know the deterrence that which is true Um, I don't think he wants to put her through this no and and with and I know you talked about this in 2026 which is with outside influence. So she'll be influenced like I don't think anyone wants this to keep going You know, so I could but but now it's become bigger than the Patrick The Patrick and Lindsey clansy get now. This is case law. This is present. Yes postpartum psychosis They have to see this through so I think yeah And if they open up the books and they maybe do found evidence of it but I'll let you know all this uh No one really wins. I wonder if he knows something we don't know Maybe there's a lot of a lot of chatter. I'm sure But there'll be another trial. I also want to correct something. I this is the cynic in me talking It's like hey the lawyer doesn't want to put her through this again I don't know another trial means he goes to mr and misses who have the

1:39:05Million dollars and go fund me and says hey, sorry I know the retainer was 40 grand last time, but it's gonna be 80 grand this time Why don't you guys get a no-go-go fun me going So anyway, I defencillers are some of the best actors in the world and they they provide a very very vital role We have to have good defencillers defending people who are up against charges By the government the government can be over oppressive it can I was a prosecutor and I was never like that But the government can get mindless even not not even being intentional about it They can just start to have this mill of prosecute him him him go for the low-hanging fruit That makes for an easier case you need good defencillers But I'll tell you defencillers are actors and they act like they're all into it They make a lot of money doing this you know, and so if it was 11 to once right? But it was 11 to one how are they gonna make this case any different? You know like that's why they're afraid it is a win for the defense knowing it was 11 to one Prosecutors might agree to some result which sends her to this psychiatric facility because You know that might be the best result for them

1:40:07And they don't want to go through this again, and you know retraumatized different people like Patrick She's a celebrity now too, which is crazy like whether she goes to jail whether she goes to that same asylum You know, I think it's she's it's so much support. Yeah, I think it's it's it's it's unserious For us to treat her as a celebrity. I think I know you can describe her as a victim of circumstance But a person killing their own kids we have to hold the moral line. We have to hold some line Whether or not the line falls somewhere that she's guilty. She's not guilty by insanity We have to not hold her up as some sort of martyr because at the end of the day a person who Physically does something that's so horrible that just we got to draw the line on some at some point September 29th judge Sullivan can give her not guilty and disregard what the jury says September 29th you can do that Yeah, so he might do that to save Massachusetts a lot of money and just you talk about through like a the directed verdict or whatever They call it over there where the judge says there's not even enough evidence to plausibly basically support their case Yeah, yeah, it's rare that they do that but it's it's possible

1:41:08It's not impossible and the problem that he decides that and then he never he's doing that I don't think he's doing it because they almost know you could have the worst case ever and they don't grant the directed verdict or whatever They call it in the state, but What what he would be afraid of would be an appeal? Because that decision could be appealed a jury finding someone not guilty cannot be appealed So the prosecution is powerless, but you can appeal a judge's legal decision That he could almost do it if he really wanted to and call the prosecution's bluff and be like are you gonna appeal this? You know, so I don't know he could find her so I'll test your prosecution chops here So and reddington's closing statement. I was listening to another prosecutor saying but the prosecutor should have done It's called him out for saying oh the prosecution's taking the soul from her And they really went overboard and I think I was listening to Matt Murphy saying as he said the prosecution Spray and Buckingham they really kind of dropped the ball They weren't ready for the limelight here, but a better prosecution I bet you if Matt Murphy was doing this trial

1:42:11He would have had the best shot they got a conviction on her, but since it was Spray and Buckingham They just I don't know they weren't very compelling to me. They weren't charismatic or take you they didn't make a jury like them Well, they're small town they're small town prosecutors. They probably never handled something like this Whereas the defense lawyer likely is someone who they paid a lot of money to and so he likely has kind of earned the His place in the spotlight due to the fact that he can get paid more for bigger cases Whereas the prosecutors it's probably two of the more senior members of the office that they just threw in there And they may not have a ton of experience One thing I'll say is my toxic trade is that I believe if I was on the prosecution side I would have won the case. I believe if I was on the defense side I would have won the case and I'm like not even kidding by that. I think I think Reddington is pretty solid his questioning of the witnesses was fairly solid He needed a rebuttal to the fact that The voice can't just come and go and disappear like fairy dust because I bet you that one hold out juror If you if you had someone up there saying the psychiatrist if you had them answering that specific point saying

1:43:15Oh, no, and you could get a psychiatrist some psychiatrist is going to say this based on some study from France from 1937 They're gonna say no no no you absolutely can hear a command hallucination out of nowhere Be so compelled to follow it you follow it and then you wake up and you go oh my god What happened and that is exactly what happened to Lindsey Clancy you put me at all go get a psych degree and I'll say that and and convince that one guy joking, but I mean, but I think that Reddington should have hit that also the closing the time to maybe have swayed this one guy Reddington's closing was or his closing argument was bad It was really bad from a trial lawyer perspective the prosecutor followed the good principles of trial law and that you're in here's to let you in on the industry secrets You open with something poignant and compelling whether it is your best facts whether it's a quote whether it's the theme of your case Whether it is your best element of the case that is kind of the contention point that you're sticking and showing them we prove this You need to open with a punch Reddington did what you go to any any trial lawyer academy where you're trying cases and they tell you they will all tell you

1:44:20Do not do generic blather that has nothing to do with the case for the first 20 minutes I call it throat clearing just before you get to the real stuff he goes Members members of the jury Your duty as a juror was is the highest civic duty But he's performed it out of here, but jurors don't care about that. They're sitting there like just tell me what I should believe I heard what they believe tell me what you want to believe I want to decide this They don't want to hear about how valuable their civic duty is they don't want to hear about this throat clearing And he did other generic things from the defense lawyer playbook like Slandering the cops for their their investigation listen if his theory was Patrick did this then yes you slander them and say you didn't look into him But the theory is that she's insane. So what else were the policemen to have done But he did he just was plug and playing generic defenciliar tropes that don't work in my mind I would see defenciliar to them and be like dude fine go ahead and do that as the prosecutor It's not working he goes all the defect the the the the investigators here the police did a dr. Lousey investigation It was just down right Lousey. It's like you're a defenciliar

1:45:23You don't really know what a good investigation is from bad other than that it gets your client in prison or not So reddington wasted about I had what well I listened to the whole thing it was maybe 15 to 30 minutes on just throat clearing nonsense He should have gotten out there and been like do you see this young lady? Do you see this young lady with her family? She was loving she was caring now look at this young lady and show her of gruesome picture of her in the wake Do you think this can happen because she wanted this did she try to do this? Did she have the mental wherewithal to kill her children? Look at this beautiful young lady with this family who went to the psychiatrist who Who who wanted to get better you know the prosecution just admitted she wanted to get better They admitted it they know that her depression was was looming over her This is not what she wanted to happen and the only way that it could happen is that she had about of psychosis About of insanity you cannot find her guilty on these facts And then boom this one juror might go damn it. I can't contend with that

1:46:25But he 11 agreed with him though and it was it 11 agreed but my time today I think I would have moved the needle enough to get that last guy by being like dude And I would have looked right at him. I would have known I'd have been like you know He's probably more gruff maybe a little older. I bet it's a guy who's in 45 or older and more and I'm looking at him and I'm saying like She couldn't have done this with the mental wherewithal You know to to have known what her actions were achieving she was out of it You know the big thing also is the jury They're not supposed to be listening to social media at all, but you know you know they are they are You know they are definitely every day He would say to them no one's been watching social media. You haven't seen anything about the case So hopefully No one saw what the public was talking about because if they were They would realize the public's talking about all these off the wall things in the comparison to what's actually being said in the courtroom So either way though. I mean he did get 11 I I guess for Lindsey's sake. I wish she just the one person would have said screw it like let her go to the mental hospital

1:47:27But he was probably feeling kind of somewhat of how dany and I feel where you have to hold some kind of legal line You have to hold some kind of moral line where you say gosh man if a person kills their kids we can't just say Hey, the mental hospital can let you out in two months one month one day You can't just leave it to that. It has to be there has to be a message sent Now I don't know that that's the way the law should think of things I think the law should do its best to take dangerous people out of society and deter further criminals And if Lindsey's not a threat and putting her in prison is not going to deter people with psychosis who can't be deterred because they're psychotic Then maybe there's not a huge point to putting her in prison for 50 years versus Men the mental hospital But I can kind of understand how the one guy wanted to hold the line and say I just can't say that she's innocent I don't because Because all that guy had to say or admit was the prosecution didn't sell me a hundred percent You know like like they they I'm still if I'm not sold a hundred percent

1:48:30Then what are we even talking about it's not guilty like that's that's the burn approved. He did say that basically exactly Like what are we doing here that jury note was very telling right they said yeah This person recognizes there's doubt Well then there you know going to abide by the law now the judges agreed judge said now they're abiding by the law But by the way the jurists of the jury is making it sound he's saying there's doubt But it's like what you said before that it might not have been that he thought it was reasonable He's not able to doubt but think about this we're all in a jury you want to go home your wife's right You're hungry Guilty right you're gonna turn on him and you're gonna say oh he's not going with reasonable doubt That guy has every right to sit down. I tell you to me is a hero He's a hero that guy say hero For the reality is there in front of all of them and say not guilty hour after hour hero It's gonna end up back by or no the mistrial now and it's gonna it's gonna turn it end up being bad with Patrick now It's gonna cause all this more chaos and stuff. I think Kevin did an amazing job. I like just closing So you coming from a lawyer obviously you know you know more than me but

1:49:32He put on a show at the end with the quarters. I thought the quarters were fantastic And at that point and 11 other jurors were agreeing with me. I was sold anyways I thought it was it was over not guilty and he was just kind of reeling and finishing up Um, and I think the reason why it was 11 to one was because prosecution had no case They had no case like when Jennifer Tuss was called up when the therapists were called up and they just were kids on the stand And they couldn't the answer cool like in questions How come she didn't get better? Why did you keep giving her more medication like it just it painted this terrible picture that no case and um All right, yes, no problem. So yeah I also think though there should be a little sentence people to a mental hospital for a length of time That would eliminate that issue. I'm with you and I'll end it to I'll start the ending Okay, then we'll go around I agree with you. I think if it's insanity There's gotta be a mandatory insanity defense where you're going to the mental hospital for 15 years Okay, after 15 years then maybe a psychiatrist could say you're better in your leaf. Yeah, but there's no way this woman

1:50:38Who strangled each kid for four minutes guys four minutes? She's strangling What do you think the other two kids why you doing why she's strangling this kid? Okay, yeah And we're gonna let her walk the fucking street. There's no way that lady should walk the street Of course she can't now she's wheeling herself, but still no pun She shouldn't walk the street I mean I agree she shouldn't walk the street right but at the mental hospital because of not guilty about reason to have insanity I don't think she had the criminal responsibility I think that should be her accountability is going there now. I don't like how masters who's just does it I don't like how in whatever length of time she can be up for the mental facility version of parole But if wasn't for that like I think she should be there like at least 15 20 years minimum And I think there's just way too much reasonable doubt in this case as the 11 jurors I agree agree with you and me And there's only one one yeah, we're gonna change that next stood the ground to the credit they remain principled I guess to their to the way they saw it even though they had a little doubt

1:51:39But not enough to qualify as reasonable doubt apparently. I think it's a little ridiculous But I think she should have gotten lack of criminal responsibility She wanted to die at the end her plan was to die at the end which means And to be with her kids so every day that passes she's already in jail right now She's already in a prison that she's she's alive. She did not want to be alive She didn't want to be away from her kids at all. She's already in a prison. Arnie sells. She's paralyzed She's alone and she has to live with this and I think that's good enough And she's criminally insane put her in insane asylum, but not guilty I believe that her actions show that she was aware enough of what she was doing that under the Massachusetts law She gets found guilty. She sent her husband out for errands. She looked how long it would take She went one by one isolating them in order of who would be the most at least difficult to to commit this murder on I think that she had selectively delivered her Problems with intrusive thoughts to different people, but never a person who could cause her children

1:52:41To be taken away. I just I think It's just it's there. It's there beyond a reasonable doubt and the biggest part is that I think she made up the voice My the best evidence I heard is that the command hallucination telling her to kill the kids had the features of a fake Voice that was created by a person after the fact according to the prosecution psychiatrist and it's very telling the defense Didn't even try to rebut that now as I do in all my videos on social media I like to reward people for staying to the end So I do what I call an outro a special treat. Sometimes it's a half-time show. All right Yeah Not guilty of our reason that I You get points for that. I had to do it. It's like my trademark. We had different thoughts. Nobody argued Conversation. Yeah, it was good. Thanks Jared. If you like watching people actually defend their beliefs instead of hiding behind the internet

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