S6 | E22 | The Debrief with the Guilt Team

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Hello, welcome back to another episode of The D Brief.

So we're just having a catch up episode today,

discussing a new lead that Ryan discovered in last week's episode.

So Ryan, this new lead sort of challenges where we last

knew and was.

So can you talk us through what the lead is with Tony and how we're going to actually verify it?

Yeah, so we've had a lot of feedback on the last episode,

which is the episode is called The Last Person to See and Alive,

sort of question mark, because

you know, that has always...

The thought there was always that when Andrew out of the house that day,

her parents here, the car move, they say she sort of rushed out, leaves the gate open.

Were they The Last Person to sort of...

It's always assumed they heard her leave that morning.

Maybe that night Eric was The Last Person to see her alive.

You know, the night before when they had dinner.

You know, and this new lead, Sarah comes along and says that she knows,

or knew this guy, Tony Ray, who apparently 10 years ago, sort of just off hand, just told her,

I was the last person to see.

I believe I was the last person to see The Firewallens' wife alive,

but he was referring to Anne, she says.

You know, and he proceeds to tell the story that he was subdividing some land off of his property

on the Mary River, which is, we'll get a map up soon, but which is near where Anne lived,

and the story is that he's going down there, these people are going to meet to have a look at

the property in the morning, early in the morning, and he sees a car there in a spot that

is not sort of normal. You wouldn't normally see someone there at that time of morning,

and he said that it was her in the car, and she's in there.

She's in the car with another guy, and it looked like they didn't want to be seen, and so she,

so he'd assumed that, you know, maybe it wasn't a fair or something like that,

and so he sort of looks the other way, and he's confident that that was the day and disappeared.

And for some reason, he'd kept this quiet. Well, as far as the witness that I'm speaking to now

has said she doesn't believe that he went to the police. We don't know that for certain,

but I'm going to 99.9% say that that never happened, because we'd know about it if it had.

But that's basically the lead, and if you hear the episode, you know, you will have heard her,

she tells the story. It's one of those ones where there's not a huge amount, but what it could

mean is potentially massive, and I've already had a lot of feedback from listeners,

and obviously everyone else thinks the same thing. I remember when I got that phone call,

you know, people often will contact me with leads and things, and you never know what's going

to happen when you pick that phone up. And she was so agile about it in a way. She's like,

oh, I think I might have something that could be relevant now that I've listened to your podcast.

Yeah, you know, and then she sort of just says that, and when I was listening back to the audio,

I listened to myself, and then I'm like, hey, hang on, she saw Anne in the car,

like this morning, with another guy. You know, I mean, the ramifications of that are just ridiculous.

You know, but it reminds me a lot, of course, of Laurie's lead with Frank, right, where you sort of,

it's potentially huge, but where do you go now? Well, what do you do? Because he's obviously

passed away, and when she said, he passed away, I mean, you're just, you know, you're sort of a

deja vu all over again. But you do what you can with what you've got. And, you know, as you'd hear

in the episode, you know, the first steps are to try and sort of ascertain Tony's credibility

through his friends and people that knew him and try and build something around this lead and see

what we can find. Did he tell anyone else? And maybe where does he live? You know, if you assume that

he was subdividing this property off, we can narrow down, okay, or we can narrow down where the

property was, even further than that, we can narrow down the subdivision. So we can probably narrow

down where the car could have been seen on the river, you know, normally a river only has so many

little spots that a car could sit if it hasn't changed in that time. You know, and then we can go

from there, like we can start looking at people that neighbor on to potentially this road, it must

be an access road or something and we can go from there, we can try and find who maybe these

buyers might have been that were with Tony this day that potentially were looking at this property.

Did they remember anything? You know, there's places to go, but it's a super exciting lead.

It could change absolutely everything in this case. You imagine if Tony was alive, if he was alive,

and if he actually told this story out of his own mouth, this would be groundbreaking stuff. It

would be on Channel 7 News in Australia like tonight kind of thing. It would be the biggest lead

in this case, but it's just that one little thing because Tony's passed away that just creates

that little bit of a cloud. Yeah, interested to hear what you guys think after listening to the

episode. I know we're only just delving into it, we're really only just peeling back the surface

of it, but keen to hear your initial thoughts. One thing that really stood out to me that I think

Sarah said of Tony, you know, seeing Anne, she said, if she was in distress, he would have reacted.

And so that obviously speaks to the kind of man Tony was from an astute man,

but why would he have not told the police? It's come up a few times, you know, there's been a

few things in this case, we're like, yes, happened. What are the reasons they couldn't have gone to the

place? Yeah, I mean, yeah, you got to check. Yeah, my thought kind of going off of that, you know,

and I'm not going to lie, I fully intend to get out of this debrief today, being pegged as a guy

pouring cold water on a hot lead. Okay, I'm going to go ahead and know that listeners don't kill me

over this. Not to, I'm not looking at it and going, okay, this isn't near what we're making out to

be. That's not what I'm saying at all. However, I do think this is the type of lead that can come in

and make us really want to make leaps where maybe we shouldn't, at least bridging some of those

gaps that are there. Going off of what Bell is saying, my question becomes, okay,

the reaction of the second person that you spoke to, that you have the listener that gives you

that this lead, right? The second person that you spoke to sounded pretty taken aback by

that story. You know, the way she reacts to you saying, I was like, he never said that to me. Like,

very, however, there was a story told to her though. There was a story that he had told and

it had to do with seeing lights and things, right? So the question for me is, okay, kind of going

off, why would he not go to the police? Why would he tell a different story ever? Do you know what I

mean? So that leads me to kind of pump the brakes. Like, okay, if he saw her specifically,

it's either, you know, it kind of leads me to believe that, okay, was it a, hey, this is kind of a

better story. If I tell it this way, you know, not to take away, I'm not calling him a liar,

I could just completely, completely off base. But from one person to the next, not to, it's not

that he didn't mention being there, didn't mention seeing anything at all to one person,

but then mentioning this story to another, he mentioned the story to both. But they were different

different stories, pretty significantly. So what are your thoughts on that? Did, you know,

does that lead you to believe they're like, okay, well, why was there a difference?

I felt like that was like, I won't say the red flag. If there's an orange flag,

that's what I was thinking at the time. I thought, you know, I've got to say like, my initial thought

with this lead was doubts straight away. I thought, how, why wouldn't someone go to the police?

This is such, you know, if you knew this. And then exactly when I realized that Ali said,

oh, Tony, he's the one that, remember, I told you all those months back that I had a friend who's

for these lights up above his place and that he thought it might be connected to Anne's disappearance.

She said, oh, that was Tony, this guy. And yeah, I thought, it sort of struck me. I was like, what's

the same guy telling two different stories about Anne that are totally different stories. They're

not connected. And I found that quite odd and hard to explain. You know, and I think I say in the

podcast that I'm like, you know, hanging on by the thread of hope that it's the, it's kind of like

his character and what his friends are saying about his character that's giving me a tiny thread

that I'm hanging on to here. You know, if they, if someone had said, ah, you know, Tony, he,

you never know with Tony, could be anything. He makes a, you know, then I'd have thought, all right,

okay, let's, let's slow down a bit. But it was just that that thread that it was, Tony wouldn't

make this up, you know, and then you're talking to each person, Tony wouldn't make this up. That

was all, you know, you're really hanging on to here. And that Sarah, even though, you know, she didn't

want to name in the podcast, which is fair enough. And she's got quite a respectable job and I

understand that. And she's very well educated and everything. And, you know, I think she would

understand if someone's making something up or if it's not to be trusted. Those are the things

I was hanging on to. But you did right. I thought the same thing. We've got the same, same guy telling

two completely different stories. Why is that? And I couldn't, I couldn't marry that. I don't know,

you know, that's, that's one of those things that sort of sign the seeds of doubt. But at the same

time, I, yeah, I'm just hanging on to that thing that Tony sounds like he's got the good character.

You know, obviously, like I said, we're scratching the surface here. Let's see what happens when we

go a bit further. Maybe we might find someone who says, oh, no, you know, X, Y, this is why this

didn't, isn't real. But yeah, I agree that's definitely my thought. And I'm sure that if you

thought that, I bet a lot of you listening would have thought the same thing. Don't worry, we're

thinking it too. The only slight explanation I could think of because Ali was friends with Anne,

right? The woman that Tony was speaking to maybe he admitted the information of seeing

and that morning when he was talking to Ali because he knew they were close and he didn't want to,

you know, upset her. But that, that speculation on our part thinking about reasons why he might not

have told the rest of that story to Ali. You could, you know, and I mean, hey, we don't know to

speculate too much, but we kind of, I guess we have to speculate a little bit here because we really

don't know anything. But let's say for a second, okay, Tony knows Ali and Ali's and friend.

Tony thinks that Anne was having an affair this morning. It sounds like that's what he said, right?

And there's a bit of a stigma around affairs and so on. Maybe he thinks Anne was doing something

wrong. You know, you sort of think like, perhaps if you were jumping in Tony's mind, you know,

like, yeah, does he think, oh, maybe Anne was, if she was having an affair, do I want to tell her

friend that that I saw this? Maybe he thinks Anne just ran off with some guy and just didn't,

you know, you know, if you're trying to think why he might not tell her that. But then why would he

tell her the story about seeing the lights up in the trees? And so basically just, I don't know

how much we covered this off in the podcast, but going back, I think, yeah, the story was about

the lights in the trees is that he'd said to Ali that, so where his property is, you've got kind

of across the Mary River and it's a bit of a valley. And on the other side, it kind of goes up

into the hills and those hills kind of go around towards pie bun and stuff. And my understanding,

yeah, here we go. So so you can see, just a reminder, we're making this is a video,

episode of the debrief as well. So if you want to watch this jump on our brand new YouTube channel,

which is up, we've got a couple of episodes up there. We're going to populate that with more

as we go on. But Bella has pulled up a map right now. We're having a look. But I'll just explain

it to you as well. So Tony's place is on the Mary River. And we've sort of narrowed down where that

is, which we'll get to more in the next episode of guilt. But you can see it's in a valley that runs

down beautiful country behind Tony's place as hills. And then on the other side, my understanding

is that across the Mary River, he says to Ali that, oh, the night of Ann's disappearance that

up in the hills and the trees, he saw lights of like a bulldozer or something or some kind of

bit of machinery up in the hills, working at midnight, you know, at weird, a weird time of the night,

you know, moving dirt or something. And he points us out to Ali and says, oh, I saw a night of

Ann's disappearance near where her car was or whatever. I saw machinery working at a weird time

of night. And Ali says, oh, well, you should probably go and tell the police that that could be

important. And he says, oh, no, he doesn't want to get involved. And again, to me that I hear that

and I think, well, lots of times people, you run into people and you run into people in life like

this as well, that they want to tell a story there, you know, and they've got a big story, but the

moment someone comes along that's sort of a positional authority or someone that can actually

action something, suddenly they're like, oh, no, they don't want to tell that story anymore,

because maybe frankly it's bullshit, you know, and it's a bit of, you know, and they don't want to

make it real. I'm not saying that that's necessarily the case here, but, you know, you do do

think those things in your mind. But anyway, that's the other story that he says he saw lights up

in the trees, but you do wonder, how do you sort of explain, tell Ali this story, but then you

don't mention the fact that you also happen to see, and that morning, you know, in a car.

And according to the lead that we got, he, he felt like he could identify her, but he gave no

indication of characteristics or appearance of the man. Sadly, no. But we can infer that he,

it obviously wasn't Eric, because, you know, he wouldn't be saying in a fear or something like that.

And, you know, I think a lot of people already are reading between the lines, because thanks for,

you know, would be getting emails and messages and things, even my mum sent me this,

diatribe of her theory. And, you know, we can all like jump to conclusions and come up with theories

right now. And of course, you know, you're going to, but you start to think, okay, well, if we say

for a second that this is correct, it does start to seem logical, it could actually make some sense,

right? We've got the talk of the forestry workers, even though we're still trying to track down,

who said this, two cars leave, enter the car park, one car leaves. Did Anne go and meet someone

near that morning, you know, and then drive off somewhere. And actually, if we jump on the map

yep, so, so little yeah, but create car park, which is where we're showing on the map right now.

If you zoom out, you can see that where Tony was, just down, and we've got the yellow pin there,

is not far, you know, in terms of driving a car, I think I went on Google Maps and it's a seven minute

drive, but it's only a seven minute drive because you sort of have to drive down and around to get

back to the other side of the river, but in terms of the crowed flies, we're talking a very small

distance, you know, let's, Tony could have been, let's just say this, this witness comes along,

Sarah comes along and says, hey, I know a guy that said he saw Anne that morning at this river,

gives me a location that's 50 kilometers away, you know, you'd be like, that's not really,

very likely, but it comes along and it's like, well, what do you know, it's only a few kilometers

away. It's we're talking right in the same area. Is that a coincidence? You know, I don't know,

you know, we are talking the right area, it starts to fit, but then you're going to ask all the

kinds of questions as well, right? Like, well, you know, because I think I say in the podcast,

when I'm talking to Sarah, I say, well, we've to assume that this guy must be the killer. Now,

I was probably pretty quick to jump to that, but I suppose my thought there is, well, if this

person wasn't the killer, why did they never come forward? If they're having an affair with Anne

and then there are possible answers to this, right? They're probably already running through your head,

but wouldn't you say, hey, you know, I look, I was seeing and I saw her that morning, after I saw

her, she said she was going to go, like, let's say, talk to Eric and break it off or something,

right? You know, he's done something. Why did that person never come forward? Now, I'm sure you're

going to say, well, you might also be in the firing line of cops if you came forward and said,

I was with Anne that morning, you're probably going to become suspect number one. So I guess that's

an answer to that question, but yeah, this is one of those ones. You can jump down the rabbit hole

which people where you want to go. But I think, I think what we're trying to do now, it, you know,

I think like, you know, you're putting together like a thousand piece puzzle and you're, okay,

where is this kind of, you know, you're spinning that thing around and does it fit with anything else?

So on that thought, in relation to Gus, because Gus, that conversation still to me to date,

certainly with Anne, but with this season entirely, that interests me even before this lead came

along. So talk to me a little bit about how you view this through the lens of how it relates to

that particularly. Do you see any similarities to things line up there that you feel like could,

okay, that might give us a path to corroboration? Yeah, it gets thanks for bringing that up because

I've sort of passed over that one. And you know, it's something that I didn't delve into in that

episode the last episode too much, but we're going to. And that was something that jumped out at me

pretty quickly when I realized, when I was just before I was mentioning coincidence of location,

Eastern Mary River Road is, it's a seven minute drive from where Anne's car was found.

It's probably a one or two minute drive for where Gus's workshop was.

You know, we're talking about the same roads, Bella, if you scroll down to the south there a little

bit, yep, and then you zoom in somewhere there, but when that road follows down a bit further,

and eventually it'll cross over the Mary River, and then it sort of comes back up on the

Kenalworth Malani Road back towards Kenalworth. Yeah, down there somewhere it crosses over.

But the workshop is right on that road, like I'm not kidding you, you know, it is literally

right on that road. You'd have to think, I mean, of course, we don't know where this car was parked,

whether it was on the west side of the river or the east side of the river, because Tony's place

backed right onto the river, like from where his place was, his house, it was only like, yeah,

only yards away from where the river was. So he may have seen a car that was parked on the other

side of the river right, or it could have been on his side. So we're not really sure, yeah, exactly

where your cursor is there. That's where I'm sort of thinking the area the car could have been.

But either way, Gus' workshop is only just up the road. And again, you're talking about

two witnesses coming forward out of the blue, and it just so happens that these things are all just

cross-sectioning right into the same area. And then we're also talking about five hours, Gus'

disappeared for this morning. No idea where he is, that would coincide nicely with,

potentially with this, Gus being, I don't know if womanizes the right word, but, you know,

he inserts himself into women's lives in ways that he shouldn't, has he done this somehow with,

and, you know, again, we're speculating here, but I mean, you can't deny that these things kind of do

fit, yeah. And in terms of the Gus lead too, our team, the guilt research team, which, you know,

I should give them a shout out, they're working tirelessly at the moment, you know, to try and find

Gus. And I've spoken to other members of his family recently, his brother, who had some pretty

choice words to say about him, and the client person he is, and I'll throw the word psychopath in there.

They don't even know where he is. This guy has destroyed his own family's lives, but, as you kill it,

we're not sure yet, but we are trying to find him. But, yeah, sorry, there was a bit of a rant there,

Jacob, but, yeah, I guess it probably answers your question. No, I think, said it before, man,

where there's smoke, there's fire, and there's a heck of a lot of smoke here right now.

That was the next question I was going to ask you is, okay, you know, we talked about

pie in the sky one day, there could be potentially a possibility to be able to speak to Derek. But, you,

it's one of those things where you want to make sure you got your ducks in a row, you get, you want

to make sure you have everything that you need, because you're probably only going to have the one shot.

So, in this particular scenario, it's great to hear that you're tracking him down, but my question

becomes, what are those things that you want to make sure you have buttoned up before you do

initiate that contact? You have them all? Are there other things that you'd like to look into before

you initiate that? Yeah, I mean, how long's the piece of string, you know, I mean, I feel like

it's one of those things where you're probably never feel quite ready for something like that.

I'll probably always feel like I'm not sure if I have enough. But, yeah, I mean, certainly,

and I should say as well here that, you know, perhaps it was Derek in the car, you know, we don't

know, right? There's been some, there's been talk that perhaps there could have been some kind of

relationship between Derek and Anne. We don't know that. It's been speculated. So, you know, we can't

rule that out as well. And I'll just say on that note, what if Tony thought he saw Derek in the

car and maybe that's why he never came forward because he thought Derek's in prison, who cares,

doesn't matter. You know, just another thing to consider. But, yeah, I mean, I don't know, like,

I think finding Gus, you know, ascertaining whether there could be any truth to this. It's certainly

be something, you know, I'd like to do. Yeah, but I mean, I don't know. How long is a piece

of string? I mean, I don't know. I don't know if I'll ever be fully prepared for having that conversation

with Derek. Yeah, that's probably a conversation, which is, you know, the time for him to win that's

going to happen is getting probably shorter and shorter. I can say at the moment.

Yeah, yeah. So, but on that note, you know, if can we review really what, what hard facts or hard

leads or what's what is what is truly tied Derek to Anne in total? Like, can we just check,

go down that checklist really quick. So I'm, I'm, I'm making sure I'm fresh on that.

Yeah. So, number one, yeah, and I mean, you're going to hear these things and think, come on,

is that it, you know, because it really is like that. So the first thing is going to be, you know,

knowledge of the of the person, right? It's been proven that that Derek knew Anne, you know,

and that's the first thing. So, Derek, remember, so they're living on Blooming Creek Road.

Well, I mean, Derek wasn't living there, but, you know, he's going there every day to Pivun,

just at the road, she's at the end. Derek had helped Anne with her horses to maybe, I think,

helped take them to the to the show or something like this. So it's just knowledge in you, Anne.

He had made a comment to someone working at Pivun that he had been on a date with a teacher,

you know? And I think that it was, I believe we're assuming that a local teacher, right?

That he'd said that she'd be a good fuck. You know, so again, you're just talking about a comment

to another guy at Pivun, right? Like, you know, it's hard to take this tough as serious hard evidence,

but that's, you know? And then the other thing, which is pretty tenuous. So on the night of

the morning of Anne's disappearance, the night Derek had been drinking heavily at a party in

Nambor, which I guess kind of lines up with what happened in Jessica's case. And we know that

Derek was a bit of a jekyll and hide sort of a character and that when he, he drank that

anything was sort of possible. He, he would have blackouts and he didn't really know what was

going on. And that's really it. So I think that the thought is that, you know, he drank that night

heavily, then maybe he had thought that teacher I went on a date with, you know, what man, I'm going

to go, I want to go get that fuck right now, you know, sort of thing. Do we know, do we know

who the guy was from Pivun that he said that to? I believe it's in the transcripts somewhere.

Yeah, off the top of my head, I'm not sure, but I'm not even sure if it does say who said it,

but yeah, it's in there somewhere, but yeah, I can't tell you off the top of my head, but yeah,

just a passing comment that's recalled much later, you know, couldn't possibly be Mark Jansen,

yeah, I don't know, I don't think so, I don't think so. How early in the morning, like, what would

the odds be that he was still intoxicated? Well, I mean, from talking to me, Derek would drink,

when he drank, he'd drink and drink, it could drink for days on end through the night into the next

day. So yeah, and I think, I think going with this story, that he was drinking the night before,

and then he left as well. And then my understanding is that he couldn't account for his movements

that night, because when there was an inquest, I believe he was questioned by a judge,

and the judge felt not wasn't impressed by Derek's answers and how he could explain where he was,

because I don't think he was really able to explain much. Yeah, so the hard thing with it though

is when you're thinking about it is the way Anne's left that morning, she's left under her own

volition by the sounds of it. Unless we're thinking someone else arrived at the house and took her,

but that just doesn't seem likely. I think there'd be more commotion and parents are going to

realize something's happened. It seems like she's left herself and driven down to the to the car park.

How has that happened if Derek's come drunk from this party in the morning?

He can't have called there because, you know, police would be aware if that's happened,

what he would have had to go to the house with her that morning.

Yep, she had a dog with her as well, where the dog was never found. Also, you know, the steering

lock was on her car, which I feel it seems unlikely to me that Derek is going to, in an intoxicated

state, plan something out to the point he's going to put a steering lock on her car, so I believe

she put that steering lock on there herself. You know, but I mean, the answer to your question,

yeah, that's all that there really is. It's all very circumstantial. He knew her, he'd made

comments about a teacher. He was drinking that night before and that he'd left this place that

he was drinking. He couldn't really account for his movements properly, but you're drinking right,

you could be really drunk. Yeah, I mean, maybe he can't really account for his movements. I don't

know, but that's it really, so it's, there's not a lot. Well, and I don't know that I'm,

if that I'm not splitting hairs at this point, but, you know, I would, I would really be really

interested to see the teacher comment where that came from. If we, because if we could take a lead

like this and really look into the guy's credibility to make sure that is this lead

legitimate, how legitimate can it be? That's that's one that I would question to is how much

credibility can we put on this that comment? Who said it? Where did it, you know, what context

was this said? If we, if we can't even track that down, that makes me question even harder. It's

like, okay, did that actually even exist? Because again, if I'm going to, if I'm going to bridge

some gaps here, you know, and I kind of alluded to it earlier. Okay, if I'm Mark Johnson,

if that comment comes from Mark Johnson, which I mean, you said it probably didn't, which is great,

but say it did. Okay, that just again, okay, if I'm Mark Johnson, I'm, we committed something,

he's waffling on me. I need to make sure that I can, if he goes down, then I'm good, right?

They can pin it on him. Oh, well, that, that girl that he knew went missing. Well, he said this

to me, right? And you're just spotlight, spotlight, spotlight. So that's, that's a comment that

it would, I would be interested to track down it and really figure out where the credibility on that

is, where it lands. Because you've got a lot of really credible, you know, some credible

contacts around this, this Gus character in, in more, in more ways than I feel like Derek, you

know, and it came out of the horse's mouth on that one. This wasn't a guy that knew him there.

It was telling you a lot of this about Gus. It was his significant other, the mother of his kids,

right? So I mean, that, that's a, that's a credible mouth to come out of.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, I totally hear what you're saying. I knew where you were going

there too. When you're talking about that, I mean, I know like we're putting this lead under the

credibility microscope. Well, I mean, what about these other ones? And you know, I mean, I'm sure

that the police have done this, but at the same time, we need to think about the context of where

some of these comments are coming from. They're coming from young boys at troubled boys. And it's

not to say that they're not credible, but it's difficult environment at Python that police are

questioning. And there are, they're, they're probing for anything that they can find, right? And

then they make that saying, Oh, or Derek said this some amount of time ago, you know, because,

I mean, there wasn't a huge period of time between Anne's disappearance and Jessica's, but we're

talking months, months of time. And so, remember, no one's questioning Derek about Anne's disappearance

until Jessica's disappeared. So they're recalling things from, and then let's say that, you know,

these comments, who knows when these comments happen, but obviously prior to Anne's disappearance.

So we're talking, they're recalling a tiny comment from months ago, months ago.

You know, I guess that's why we have reasonable doubt. And clearly, in this case, the police

would love to charge him for Anne's disappearance and Selena's they've tried to, but it's just not

crossed that burden of evidence to get that burden of proof, sorry, to get to that level.

But yeah, I'd love to speak to that person that said that. I mean, at this point now, I mean,

it would be ingrained in their, in their head, you know, it's, you know, it's been too long now,

but I'd still, I'd love to speak to them. But yeah, I mean, if you were looking at this

from a blank slate, and if you didn't, if you were looking at this from the point of view,

you're like, okay, we don't know about Jessica's case. And this is the way that the law is supposed

to be designed, right? Like that you should look at each case individually and not together.

If you were looking at it and you didn't know anything about Jessica's case, you didn't know

that Derek had committed any crime. And you're looking at these two things. Yeah, I mean, you would

start to say that, well, maybe Gus' thing looks more viable. But what we don't have in that case,

Gus' case, we do not have a definitive connection of knowing Anne. We're filling that gap. But when

Derek's case, we do. We know that he definitely knew her. Doesn't make him a killer, but, um, yeah.

So, okay, so his, she didn't actually say that she knew for a fact that he knew her.

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details. No, well, no, okay, sorry. What he said to her was, he was referring to her as

Annie, and so apologies. I guess there wasn't Debbie said that from the way he was talking,

he knew her, right? Okay. But I suppose Eric and parents saw Derek at their property like with

their own eyes. But Debbie was sort of just relaying that the way Gus was talking that he knew her.

So yeah, I suppose we could probably infer that it's reasonable that they did know each other. Sorry,

I did forget that detail. Yeah, yeah, and I think the big thing in Anne's case, right, is that her

name is Spelt Anne, and that's her name, but her friends would refer to her as Annie. You know,

I have it in the podcast because I feel like that's a personal connection that I don't have. So

I always refer to her as Anne. So why was he calling her Annie? And that's something that Debbie said,

kind of shook her immediately. She was like, Annie, how do you, you know, where's this come from?

And I guess he had said to her, and remember this is according to Debbie, right? So we don't know,

this is just what Debbie said that he had said, I'd already, I said to Anne, she should or Annie,

that she should needs to be careful when she's walking her dog. Something might happen to her,

kind of thing. So I suppose, you know, like he's talking like he knew him. So that's not even,

that's not just him calling her by a name. That's him actually saying that he had spoken to her.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. According to Debbie, yeah, yeah. So yeah, I mean, that's,

you imagine the corroboration, like, unfortunately, you know, Anne, the other potential witnesses

passed away, we're still trying to find this other clear or clara that Debbie was referring to.

You know, we may need to try and do a freedom of information thing to try and get some statements,

in this case, if possible, because getting those statements, if I could see those statements,

legitimate, that people have gone to police and said that they think Gus is responsible,

aside from Debbie, that would be extremely powerful.

You know, I don't know what kind of relationship you have with him,

but do you think it'd be valuable to get Mark Wright's insight on that, on this development?

Yeah, I mean, like Mark, yeah, it's just texting him the other day. Yeah, I mean, it could be,

it could be worth it. It could be worth it. Mark, he, he was more involved with Jessica's side of

things, not so much of this side of it. But, you know, I can travel as the detective, I think she even,

she's moved up in the ranks now, but I think she's still over this case a bit.

But it's tough because I think that, in this case, I think they've made their bed pretty hard,

that Derek's the one responsible here. And unless you come forward with something pretty solid,

they're probably not really going to be too interested. And I feel like we don't have anything

solid, solid enough at this point, probably not anything that they haven't already heard.

By the sounds of what Debbie said, she's already been to police, they feel like they've exhausted

this lead. And it sounds like they sort of told her as much when Debbie said that

Kim had got her, she drove all the way in to Meritjador, wherever it was, and met with them just

to be told like, hey, we're putting this to bed. And it sounds like they said that to each one of

these witnesses, whether that's the right or wrong thing to do. I don't know, but I don't think

I'd have much luck going to them unless I had something more at this stage. In terms of the

new lead with Tony and Sarah, you know, I'm thinking that it probably is appropriate to, you know,

maybe introduce this to them. Unfortunately, Tony's passed away, but this could be something

adventurous to them. You know, if you remember the police have much, many more resources available

to them than we have. As hard as we work, we don't have access to everything.

And there is no doubt that if it's true, it is without a doubt the most important lead in this case.

And it's also a lead that doesn't rule out Derek Sam, so that might peak their interest.

You know, so on the path to corroboration, we'll call it.

Yeah. What are your next steps?

Yeah, that could be the title for the next episode, path to corroboration.

Story of our lives. I think at this point, you know, I've got some contacts here.

And thanks to, I was just before we went on here now, I was just saying to you guys that,

you know, I've had some listeners getting hold of me with some information in regards to this lead,

you know, some people out there have access to certain databases and things that I don't.

And thank you. Some people have sent through some info after doing some digging and appreciate that.

So I've got some contacts here of people to get hold of, relatives of Tony's, other people in that sort of

orbit. Keep pushing this thing to see if maybe did he tell anyone else the same story.

And just I'm going to keep pushing until I can find someone that says, no, I wouldn't believe

what Tony says, you know, you know, if we don't find that person, then it just sort of like props

this up more. But, you know, we're sort of going to get to the point where we can't really corroborate

that side of it much more. We're going to look to find the location, what possible location, okay,

is there even anywhere on his property that someone could have driven at that time down to be

by the river? We'll look at historical imagery to see if there was any access roads.

If there are no roads that, if it wouldn't even be possible to get there at that time,

that's going to start to make it, you know, rule us out. So I guess we're going to sort of corroborate

him that way to try and see what we can rule out. And then if we do find, okay, there was an access

road, okay, what properties border onto this road, you know, let's go chat to them. Have they lived

there for a long time? Are they aware that people used to drive down there? Are they aware of the case?

You know, you just never know. Neighbors of Tony, on that same eastern Mary River Road,

was there anyone that lived there that may remember did he ever speak to them about it? You know,

just all of these things until we've completely exhausted it as far as we can, I guess.

Yeah, I suppose that's where it is really. And then just looking, hoping that someone might say,

yeah, Tony told me the same thing. But I'm, I'm feeling less confident that's going to happen

because I've spoken to his best friend and while he did have some vague memory of something,

he didn't have anything solid, Ali obviously, he didn't tell Ali. Yeah, so it's a tough one.

I, I definitely, you know, man, I felt your anguish for sure in this one, you know, you,

you really took on a side there like, oh my God, how many more of these leads can I get where

that all well, he's passed on. You know, like, well, oh my, you know, I can imagine that it's like

being in your head against the wall after a certain point. But I do, I'm sure you're hearing it from

your listeners, but man, this is, this is a case that I can imagine from your seat is pretty

grueling just because it seems so incremental. Every step that you take might be a step, but it's

a really little step, you know, and I, I've listened all your seasons and I think this one more than

any other, it has been truly incremental. But I think episodes like this, while still tough to

corroborate, it's going to be real, we're going to be scraping the bottom of the barrel to really

get through to anything on here. On this lead, I still think this is why you shake those trees, man.

I think this is the win, these small wins are what keep you going. And so if you haven't,

I'm sure you've heard it from your listeners, but dude, I got to commend you like this is where it's at,

right? This is, these are the times where you're like, all right, hopefully you felt that a little

bit after this episode was that, you know, this is why I do it, you know, because at the very least

and does have a child out there that, okay, hey, this is a step toward clarity for him. And

I'll be at small. We're getting there, you know, and I definitely feel like the leads that have come

up, particularly with Anne versus the other two in this in this season. I think these are promising,

I really do. And it's something that they didn't have before, you know. Yeah, and I mean, hey, like

totally like this is, you know, I had that, this is why you do this, this is why you do this work.

And, you know, if it wasn't for the podcast, this Sarah would have never come forward. It was,

and it's interesting, and it's probably something as well that could show us to her credibility and

her side of it, because you know, that's the other thing it's important to is that it's not just the

credibility of honey, but we're sort of having to judge the credibility of the person who's telling

me the story, right? You know, I mean, that's important. And I think it sort of goes to it that

she sort of didn't realise, she had always didn't know the details of Anne's case really, you know,

had always, I guess maybe sort of assumed that what Tony had told her maybe was no one knowledge,

like she didn't know until she listened to the podcast and she was like, oh, Christ, okay, well,

I sort of thought that the thing Tony said, that must have kind of been no one. I guess this

is something that no one knows, right? Like bloody hell, I better let them, I better let them know.

But you know, that's the thing, like that's why you do this. That's what gets me excited is,

you know, and this case has been very incremental like that. It's tough, man, like it's of all the

cases I've worked, I honestly think this is the hardest one. It really has been trying to find

information, but then you know, you get these little nuggets that come along and this one's

potentially much bigger than a nugget. This is like you're in the, you're panning for gold and

a fucking boulder run of gold rolls down the hill, you know, that's what this feels like,

but of course it's the corroboration and where you can even go with it. But yeah, man, I definitely

feel it. I feel like this is like something super important, but yeah, it has been a very

incremental case. And you know, for Leon, you know, I talk to Leon, like fairly often.

You know, it's hard, Leon obviously has his thoughts on the case and you know, obviously with his

stepfather and that kind of thing. But I think if you're going into that world of this sort of

speculating, and I know people have been in this, you know, Eric and that kind of line of things,

well, this what Tony saw, that could fit into that world, right? You know, imagine if we

speculate for a second that you discover that someone's having an affair. Well, that is probably

like the number one motive or quarter motive, but that's probably one of the main reasons people

commit murder as they found to find out there's spouse has been having an affair and they realize

it's over. You know, did that happen that day? Because as someone rightly pointed out, I think one

of the research teams said, but why would a person that's having the affair, why would they kill

and that doesn't really make sense? And that's a fair comment, right? Like, unless Anne went to break

it off the affair or did the converse happen and Anne went back and did Eric discover that she was

having an affair, you know, really speculating here. Okay, I said. But you touch on it a little bit

in the episode and it's obviously the easy take away from this lead would be that the person that

she was with did it, right? Yeah. But you do mention it in the episode that he touches the hood of

that car, you know, and so there is, okay, so did a confrontation happen after that, right? So,

yeah, she may have been with someone else, but was the someone else the person, right? Yeah.

And I mean, that's the thing, you know, in these cases, you kind of go along and you find new

leads and then you know, you forget about details, but someone explained that to me, the bonnet thing,

explained that to me in a way that makes any sense, because I'm going to explain why she parked her

car 500 meters away from our house to begin with. Hey, this is Paige DeSorbo from Gigli Squad,

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go for all kinds of things I love, and there it was. That hologram trading card. One of the rarest,

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five months, you could have walked that. Why take the car? What if you're trying to hide your

vehicle from your spouse? Well, if you touch the bonnet when it was warm, right? The thing is,

where that car was parked, you're not hiding it from anyone, because that car part is so visible.

You know, Eric's going to, so according to Eric, they had, I think, were they planning to

have a, they were planning to meet up at nine o'clock or something like that, according to Eric,

right, for a coffee or something. So if that were true, she would know that he's going to see that

car parked in that location. Because when you come across that bridge, it's it's plainly obvious,

and her car is very distinctive. It's just, it's a small sort of red car. But the bonnet doesn't

make any sense to me because, you know, the car is literally 500 meters down the road. You're going

to have to drive your car. How many kilometers before the bonnet's going to be warm, especially a

small car like that? It doesn't have a big engine. And someone said to me, they sent through a

comment and said, oh, could the sun have warmed the bonnet up? You know, I mean, of course,

that's your first thought. Suns come, it could come up. By the time he says that he feels the bonnet,

and it's a bit warm. Okay, it's like, I think maybe 830 in the morning or 8 in the morning.

Maybe. But the point here is, Eric's not an idiot. I'm not going to feel the bonnet, like the car's

sitting there, right? Suns coming up on this side. Clearly, the sun's on the side of the bonnet.

I'm not going to feel the sunny side of the bonnet and say, oh, that's warm. The engine's been on.

Unless you're an absolute half way, right? Because you're going to know the sun's on it.

So we'd have to infer that he's saying that he felt the bonnet and that it's warm because he's

saying, oh, the car's been running. So either there's only two possibilities. Either he's lying

or the car had been driven around extensively and then placed there not long before he felt the bonnet.

Both are tantalizing and both points are something totally different.

But I don't know, explain it to me. And like I said in that episode, clearly the court felt that it

was reliable evidence from Eric that he felt the bonnet and was warm because it was right there.

The judge had even mentioned it, I think, in the inquest. So it's kind of like they never actually

thought about it. I think they never really actually thought about what that meant.

And I think it's just one of those little details that I just don't understand.

But yeah, someone, someone listening, explain that to me.

Send through your theory on that bonnet. And that's all it is. Derek says that, and I already

think this is very possessive. The car's parked there right. He goes to Anne's house to have a

coffee or something. He drives back past his, and this is this Eric's story, of course, says he sees

the car there. So he drives down off the road, the main road down into the car park, gets out of

his car, goes down, checks the car, feels the bonnet. I mean, what like, I don't know, that just

seems very possessive to me. Wouldn't you just be like, oh, she's taking the dog for a walk and you

just keep driving back home? I don't know. Why would you be suspicious and checking a car out?

Oh, it's all the age of texting and saying, I'll be back in 20 minutes. If you're thinking,

oh, yes, she's down here. I wonder how close she is. You would feel the bonnet, wouldn't you?

Well, I mean, I would. I guess a preference.

But if someone is, if you know it's their morning routine to take their dog for a walk, pretend,

and you see the car there, would you really go down and like, unless you're maybe planning to go

for a walk with her and you thought, oh, maybe I'll go down and I don't know. To me, it just seems

a little bit over the top. I don't know. It does maybe. And it's also not something that I would

think to do. I've never done that. But that being said, and I have to be transparent here,

because you know, you use that term possessive. It's a running joke in my marriage that I'm not a

jealous person. And it upsets my wife sometimes. Like, how could you not be jealous of that? I just

care. So it's hard for me to kind of lend any credence to that because I'm just that not that guy.

It does come across to me as a little bit. Wow, you're really you're really on something there.

If you're if you're going that that much, you know, if you're taking that step, I mean,

I don't bell or maybe you're that kind of person, I don't know. But do you know what I mean? Like,

it's that is a lot, you know, but I also think I also think that he kind of came across that

way in a lot of what he had said outside of the hood. I'm sorry, we call it a hood here. So

but it even things outside of that instance, he's he seemed to come across a little bit that way.

So, you know, that kind of pushes me in that direction. Yeah, I think um,

yeah, but maybe like I was saying before, you're listening to this,

send through your theory on how you can explain, you know, the bonnet thing. So and if we jump

down that rabbit whole quickly and we say, you know, the possible reasons as to why you might say

that. Well, I mean, if you were guilty of this crime and you were trying to cover it up, well,

there could be a reason that you might say it. Oh, I felt the bonnet and it was warm because you

want to make it sound like I don't know, maybe the car's been driven around or something like that.

Of course, you know, which changes the timeline and confuses things. I don't know, or you know,

or it's nothing. It's it could be nothing, but I it doesn't make sense to me. It really just

doesn't make any sense to me. But yeah, send through your theory on what you think fit the bonnet into

that comment about the bonnet into into into into your theory. And I know someone actually sent one

through yesterday, basically saying the same thing that they think, you know, that it all ties in

with Eric being responsible. And just before we finish this debrief, there was a couple things

that have come through. I'm just going to pull them up here. Oh, see, Daisy, there we go.

Um, okay. Um, this one's just from Justin Leahy Leahy. I don't know if I'm pronouncing it quickly.

This is just in relation to the barking owl screen from the last episode. Or when we were

speaking about this on the debrief anyway, um, I knew I had a barking owl in my immediate

surrounds as I'd heard and identified it numerous times. Always after 10 p.m. and warmer months,

I work in the environmental field. So it's absolutely certain of the owl identification.

One night, the barking owl let rip with the screen. I knew what it was, feeling blessed to have heard

what people speak of. But the longer it went on, I actually started to question myself. And then

it stopped. The example you played in the podcast was nothing on the very realistic female

screen eye experience. Therefore, I would suggest a barking owl screen would sound exactly like

that of a female screaming. Um, thanks for that. Um, it's always good to get first hand knowledge.

And, you know, like I said, the example we had was just, that's just one, you know, that,

and I thought that sounded impressive. Um, and another person here, um, and unfortunately,

I don't have the name on this one. Uh, just saying that my husband and I live on an acreage property

in northwest Brisbane. And they heard, they thought the kids heard someone screaming and it turns

out. The sound they heard was the bush stone curle, which we frequent, which we hear when it's

raining or when rain is expected. And just wanted to say that this also really sounded like a female

screaming, at least that's what it sounded like to us. Um, the fact that it was raining at the time

does fit in with when the curlers were around just talking about Selena. There was rain around, um,

and, and they are known to be in that area. Uh, so thank you for those two comments. And yeah,

I think it just, it just ties in with the fact that it's quite possible that could have been

a bird that, that they heard that day. Um, I may be following up with another person that was actually

there that day and heard that screen, uh, when I'm back over in a kennel with. Hopefully that

comes through and maybe we can get a second opinion from someone else who was there, which will be

interesting. Um, yeah, but, um, yeah, that's been some great combo there, unless you guys have

anything else to add. I think, and I'm sure I feel like this is one of those things and this

Tony lead. And I'm really enjoying talking about this. It's one of those ones where it's

you speculate, right? And sometimes speculation can be interesting. And, and this is,

this is where true crime podcasts are made and this kind of stuff, right? And I'm sure wherever

you're listening right now, you've got, you've, you've probably got a million theories and you're

probably talking to us through your, your phone or your earbuds. Um, don't worry, it's not over,

we're going to keep going with this one. Um, there's plenty more opportunity. But I'm serious,

send through your theories. Um, try to keep them relatively brief. So that, and we'll, we'll go

through some of these in the next debrief episode. Um, and, uh, yeah, uh, I'm interested.

It's kind of crazy for thinking to tap to cut, to see how close someone is. I don't think that's

the psychopathic law. I think that's quite normal. I think you're crazy. I did too, I did too, for sure.

Yeah, I think I would never, even that would not cross my mind. No, unless there's some reason why

I felt that I should do that. If you had been displaying something that made me feel worried

that you might be going to do something to yourself or I was worried that you would then I might do

that. Then I might check, she's, I'm a bit, I'm a bit worried about her. She's been acting strange.

Like, I hope she's okay. You know, then I might do that. But otherwise, no, no, I've never even

thought to check a bonnet of a car, a hood like that. I must just be a psychopath. I think,

there have been cons where I've had no phone battery and a few cars in the driveway. I've,

I've… I've been looking around, feeling him, right?

All right, I think that's probably enough from me this week. Guys, Jacob, thank you so much

for taking the time, I know it's the evening where you are. So we really appreciate it.

Yeah, I think, thanks, Bella, good chat. All right, guys, we will see you next time.

If you have any information related to the murder of Jessica Galdy or the

For the Disappearances of Anglasip and Selina Bridge, you can contact us via our website

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of major carrier customers to 12 months on the boost mobile unlimited plan.

Visit boostmobile.com for details.

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It's the proven way to simplify bill pay and maximize cash flow.

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