S5E34 - The Doom of the Dark

0:00Hello and welcome to between two carons. I'm your high. Hi, I'm Brad. Hi, I'm Skullboy And today we're going to be talking about the doom of the dark, but first How are you guys doing? pretty good Hi guys, I went to a demolition derby last night. Whoa. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness Yeah Who's that a county fair? Yeah, well, let me ask you something What it wasn't a monster robot fighting smaller things, so it was just it was other okay This was a battle royale between like Eight cars at a time in a small Wet dirt all sometimes referred to as mud arena And it was delightful You know, you just sometimes in order to experience America you have to you have to really smell the the the car blood as one of my friends who is with us said like you know, just like a just the the viscera of the auto

1:04mobile You need you need to just you need to smell the sort of ozone and gasoline and and raw oil and like melting metal and like raw dirt of Eight cars just smashing the hell out of each other just go it in reverse and smash each other up until one of them is left standing Just I have to ask like was this in was this the grandstay fair? No, it was the winds Windsor County fair because there's a lot of fairs in New England where they do this kind of thing and The one that we did In the town I used to live in of Northampton, Massachusetts. Yeah, they it's called the school bus derby. Oh, yeah, in which a monster destroys A bunch of school buses like a truck like a truck of sorris. Yeah, something like that and it's it's basically school buses that they're retiring Our destroyed kids love it. Yeah kids kids love seeing the symbols and institutions of their lives be brought to their knees

2:08You know because they're all the psychopaths. We all love that. It's a it's a it's a visceral human thing I think as you grow older you learn to repress it a little bit because you understand the value of those institutions and not just The way that they oppress you. I mean many people understand the value of institutions some people refuse to but good story San genetic any cars run run over you at all No, no there was a there was at the beginning an auction To see if you wanted to drive one of the donated derby cars That people like the thing in the derby. Yeah, like in the derby. There was a whole trial There's like there was a whole heat that was just people from the audience That like signed waivers and like brought their own helmets. They gotta have like waivers for days here, right? Yeah It's crazy. Let's go hit you with a car real quick. That doesn't hit hit hit each other with the cars that were provided Let's just hop in a car and then you you know roll into each other But like people were paying like the first people paid like five six hundred dollars just to you know

3:11Run into each other in cars and it's like you know, that's how you make money That's probably pretty good. I don't know I don't know. It's my kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was demolishing my my shed. I remember I used to have a shed I demolished yeah, I remember this yeah, I felt like a kind of existential grief from this the this active destruction You know, I was like why why do we make things only to destroy them? You know, I was just kind of put me in a bad place at I was like maybe the the demolition Field is not for me, you know, and thus maybe the demolition derby You know, what about a creation derby? Huh? Maybe we can bring some old parts and put a car together and maybe that's more of my I don't want to do that either So you want to go to a craft fairs? No, I don't you know what leave me alone. I don't want to go to any derby That's my anti-derby guy Derby at the end of the day. I think what I what I saw was something that Sort of felt like a almost like a drawing a mandala to me I know what I'm okay. People come together. Yeah with all of their like

4:13homemade crazy cars that have got like you know all sorts of spray paint all over them and like hood ornaments and it's like very mad Max But it's like people these projects that people make and then for the sole purpose of destroying them in the hopes that you're like the least destroyed car at the end of it But like you know, it's it's chaos. It's nonsense And so you're positing that the act of destruction is somehow the fabric by which the creation Of some kind of artwork or community is formed now that I you know that I exactly And at the end of it they all display their cars on their lawns like proudly like this is my just yeah This is my destroyed you know Honda Civic Do you guys know how to say how they say Derby in the UK I'm really I'm really pretty Chris McDowell is gonna call us and yell at us They say when you said they don't have lobster No, I didn't know I wasn't listening. Did you say how do you say Derby in the UK?

5:15They say they they Derby the the route. It's a Norse word A lot of towns in the UK have BY at the end Like by which is um, I think it means like a town or something But it's like if the original If the Vikings were there it usually ends with the BY there's a great Episode of map men about this for anyone who's interested in that sort of thing map men is a great great Show anyways, it was originally pronounced Do you I like that we should go back Demolition do you Can I tell you what it means though? Do you know what it means? No what it means village of the deer Like the deer like the anler deer like an animal sweet deer no animal animal Maybe that's why we have These so much in like the sort of central western New York area

6:21Yeah, just deer a town's deer you just hit and deer all the time That's one If the reason is because When they when they met to have like dogs chase deer Like do a like a golden hind situation. Yeah, or hind how do you say that hind hind? When they would have the dogs chase the deer They would have a big event a pageant out of it and that's how it revolved into all right Well, I'm kind of overall right do you want to get to do with Arby's which is Did you guys ever see see that Twitter post the nihilist RVs? Did you guys ever read nihilist RVs? Yeah, it sounds like a genre. It was great. It was great. It was great Come to Arby's die Okay, okay, so yeah Let's move on from all that to a oh did we did you want oh no actually no yeah, let me just say something first

7:22Some of our listeners think more anecdotes about no no no no no I know you don't want me to do I'm going to address the audience yeah, hey listen listeners That's you guys this is it's me you'll cry. I just wanted to say Our our friend Brad Kerr here has a patreon some of you have heard about You can become one of Brad Kerr if you join it. It's pretty weird that it says that I don't like a member It's a Stigial attention. I believe it's referred to as a polyhorde. I will tell you where until you join The press of human flesh continues Oh regardless He put out this video first on his patreon to members and then to the public this video Kind of acts as a bookend to an incident that occurred recently in which he deleted a map right before that He created a map and then he deleted it and then he joined the call and then I tried to help him recover it

8:28And then he decided he didn't want to pay whatever fees it cost to recover it So he just remade the map and decided to turn it into a video and I will say this and I look listeners You know me. I'm not a person who compliments willingly and What's about to happen? I think it's a great freaking video and I'll tell you why thank you Why just first off yes Brad has a plea a pleasing voice but when he's nothing a dumbass see like this when he's not doing that right there He's actually like a great teacher and yeah, and and I watched the video It's like 24 minutes long or whatever I watched it it explains Basically how he goes from using a semi hand drum map I'm assuming you may then like pro creator whatever bread, but I'm out that was on paper That was amazing. Yeah, looks like oh you scanned it. Oh well good for it looked amazing hatching When it shows a it shows a map that he drew that he then like adds as a layer and then he just sort of You know Pulls the transparency down so you can lay another

9:28Affinity layer on top of it and draw over it, but it shows people how to make Maps for their adventures and it also explains kind of like his thought process as he's going through like Oh, well, he says things like This hallway doesn't make sense to me. It seems unrealistic or it seems kind of like boring I'm gonna change it and I actually think it was really freaking interesting and also addressed certain kind of Like I've been using affinity for years and I just I just don't have a spatial brain So it's it's all uphill for me and the little like triumphs I've made and I go and see oh he just does this Like it's like so fucking annoying It's like oh that makes you just change the transparency of course that makes total to you know like stuff like that But I just don't think about because I don't have a I just I really struggle with affinity So I found it very useful. I think he was to check it out. It's on his YouTube channel It's free, but if you like it you should join his patreon and he did not ask me to do this I would never say yes if he asked me to do this. I just thought it was very helpful Yeah, I'm gonna talk about it. So thank you for for that Brad. It's very nice. Okay. That's I appreciate it

10:30It was it was a really good video. I watched it also. I watched it while I was well. I was drawing and I'm a person I come I come from a background of both watching and streaming myself Watching streaming streaming yeah, no watch I like to watch people the stream and I also stream The No, it's all nonsense the point I'm trying to make is that I think Brad would make an excellent streamer I think the reason he would make an excellent streamer is because he does not want to do it Um, and I think the best streamers had want want nothing to do with with streaming right? But they like they feel like they have something to share or just a You know a problem that they need to work through the The thing that really tickled me several times is a couple points throughout the video you You say oh hold on I confused myself one second. I need to pause and you pause the video and then you come back and you say okay

11:33I'm not confused anymore and that was very charming to me um, and yeah, I think uh yeah if you're learning to if you want to learn how to make a good little map in affinity I think it's a great little tutorial And in the words of a one of my my my my favorite professors in arts school Specifically, it's always better when you do it the second time. So I think it's good that you lost this Uh, you were able to provide something even better. I was I was watching it on my phone laying on my bed We were but my wife and I went out of town with our kid and we were in a hotel room And I was just like in the other room. I didn't even put headphones on. I was just it was raining outside And I just put put on my phone. I watched it and my wife said Why are you just listening to Brad's voice? Because she thought because she sometimes she'll sometimes I'll play our podcasts on my phone to make sure it sounds right or I'll like I'll make little tweaks and so she'll hear us back and more but all she could hear was your track and What what are you doing just listening to Brad's voice because she couldn't see the video

12:35Anyhow all right, uh, you can you can fart where's the what's the URL for that Bradley? Yeah. Thanks Guys, well um, yeah, we'll beat you on calm slash Bradker and On YouTube at Bradker RPG. So yeah, it's on both of those big become a member of Bradker today. Yeah join me join Brad All right, let's let's let's move on to a question from the moot sack. Yeah, let's plumb the depths start the questions The moot sack we got a question from the moot sack the moot sack Let's pull it out the moot sack That's what we call our mailbag. It's just a cute little name Did you say let's plumb the depths right there? Yeah, that was reference as a way referencing. Yeah, it didn't make sense. All right, there's a con But two piles I still have not listened to it. You should listen to it and you should read the z-man. It's true I did read the z- I did read the z- it's cool. Don't even say I made

13:38Well, let's quick shout out Tony Vesenda made an insane person Which is A zine role playing game about how to role play a Podcast that reviews role playing game and it's so Anyway, whatever it's incredibly bizarre and it sold way more copies of jencon than I was expecting it But if you're not already a niche and you are want to be part of an even smaller niche of People who play games that satirize people who review games for a subgenre of a subgenre of a hobby. This is your chance. Yeah All right, all right. Let's hit the mailbag the question bag Oh see there So this question this question comes in from Alexis of roses through our discord Thanks for joining the discord Alexis I I'm gonna out you here and say that you know Sam According to Sam So hey nice to see someone who knows sam this is my wife's high school

14:41Dungeon master Excellent dungeon master and we are Thanks for listening and for writing here we go all right, so this is the question I just finished reading Matt Finch's old school primer. I love the podcast, but I have my feet pretty set in Minimalist narrative games rather than the OSR One thing the primer talked about and I've heard you all talk about on the podcast a few times now is the idea of player skill My pause here. What do you think she means by minimalist and narrative games? Both of you. I'm thinking like honey heist. Oh, I got it got it like lasers and feelings lasers and feelings God that's such a good game. Yeah, I know she likes lasers and feelings a lot There's every variation of it is even better like rayotus did um like sorcerers and spell sores or or cell sores It's so good. It's so good. All right The example in the primer was the classic 10 foot pole. I hate this example

15:42This doesn't seem to me to be as much about skill rather than a barrier to entry Have you ever played enough games in the past to know you need this thing before you go into the dungeon? If you're new and haven't done that then you just don't know that feels less like player skill than gatekeeping to me Uh the specific example she's giving is from the primer which I've read but don't remember um it's been a while yeah Do you guys remember what the that actual example was um pull it off because it might it's probably worth having the context here So uh I got her right here a quick primer for old school gaming so the pit trap in the uh modern style the GM says a 10 foot wide quarter leads north into the darkness John the rogue says I check for traps the GM says what's your target number John the rogue says 15 GM says Decides that the pit trap is in front of the party is standard so all john has to do is roll a 15 or better So I should go back and say the GM said what's your target number for checking John the road could 15 the GM decides that It's a little more complicated than that or GM GM do GM decides it's a standard trap um

16:46So he says roll a d20 you have to just hit 15 or better john hits 16 And so he finds it and then uh there's a lot of checks and they pass the pit trap And then the example for the old school style is the GM says a 10 foot wide corridor leads north into the darkness John the rogue says we move forward poking the floor with our 10 foot pole the GM says oh Your pit your ten foot pole falls into the pit um And then they go back and forth about dealing with the pit trap So the difference is one is use dice rolls the other uses exploration of the physical space and um I'm just gonna continue on here uh But what does read as player skill to me is creative problem solving the situations It's the moment you are facing a chasm with no bridge and decide that maybe you can cut that big tree across the way down somehow And get it to fall making a temporary bridge It's clever ways of interacting with the environment to find a solution rather than the solution Rather than the solution

17:48Where do you think the line is is the 10 foot pole just a bad example where is that sort of institutional knowledge part of the charm So uh again This example here is just one from 2008. I'm sure there are Better examples to provide about player skill nowadays um, I think the the original goal here for Matt Finch was to illustrate Using a purely mechanical framework like uh target numbers and and skill checks uh versus using the narrative to And and and items and thinking about how to use those using your mind I agree that it's not a very good example because although yeah the players used quote-unquote skill to probe the darkness um A lot of time that's just kind of autopilot like the players will just say well I'm carefully searching assume I'm carefully searching you know um Like I as a GM would never just punish someone for walking

18:48I would present a situation and if they chose to To go down the path without being careful I would say so how how are you going down the hallway? Is it quickly? Is it is it carefully if if it's carefully here The consequences if it's quickly here the here the consequences and they're not always bad and good as you might imagine Maybe fast is the right way to do it you don't know but you just have to think of a reason That you might escape danger. So I agree. It's not a very good example. That's my quick take I don't think this is a great example I get what Matt Finch is going for though and I think maybe comparing Modern OSR sensibilities to something from 2008 Is interesting, but I don't think it's the best example. That's my quick tape quick quick take I yeah, I feel I feel similarly. I think uh I think the point Matt Finch is trying to get across there is one of like instead of solving a problem with specifically like just character sheet stat rolling stuff. It's yeah, it's about exploring the space physically and thinking through that as more of like a

19:52You know approaching more as a thought exercise as opposed to like a like a game design You know sort of problem and yeah, I think the 10 foot pole Comes from like a long tradition of People sort of figuring out how to deal with like we're in a dark hallway It's gonna be either you know if we step on something. I imagine it's the kind of thing I think we talked somebody talked about this in the discord too when the question was raised of just like You know, it's just it's that was like an offhand idea that somebody had like what if I had a 10 foot pole that I could poke ahead of myself And you know, so that's how you carefully walk through his base I also think it would be very easy You know if it's like oh you're walking through you know A hallway and like you come across a pit trap like you almost fall in it But you like steady yourself at the last minute. How do you deal with this pit trap is like it's all going to the same Sort of place of like solve this problem as opposed to roll dice to solve this problem. Yeah Yeah, I mean yeah, I'm I agree with you guys like it isn't a good example because in the example Matt Finch provided

20:56He's not solving a problem with the 10 foot pole. He's relying on a Classic gaming trope to solve a potential problem with the 10 foot pole, right? I mean, I think the core difference that this trying to illustrate but I think not doing a job So you know modern gaming The answers on the character sheet and you could there's still room for creativity there It's just like you have a stack of different Guns with different names and you're creatively figuring out which one to shoot at a situation You know, I remember like playing for ED and D How many skill challenges where my fighter character kept using athletics to impress an NPC with an athletic interpretive dance And I'm like a chair of course, you know like It's not like he wasn't being creative, but it that's You know Modern gaming especially fourth 45e you're looking at the creative a character sheet to see what tools you have at your disposal to solve a problem And I think always our gaming 10 foot examples not a great example here Because it's not what you have. It's how you're using it and the 10 foot pole is

21:58Is what it is because of all its millions of utilities You can use it to measure you can use it to climb you can use it to pull vault you can use it to poke stuff You know, that's what's the heart of OSR gaming is it's not on the character sheet. It's just creatively You put it yourself in this situation and think what you can do to solve a problem. I remember um Saying we talk about this a lot the game we played a Gary con in 2025 with madfinch There's this one player do you remember mad madfinch said we could have any mundane items, you know from town And this guy brought like a bag full of large snails or something do you remember that and he kept solving problems with his large snails And I remember thinking like what in the world like you want to talk about player skill like I feel like Well, how did this guy Come to this where he realized how many problems he could solve with a bag of very large snails yeah Uh, that's a kind I mean that's another 10 foot pole. It's just yeah How can I creatively just think about myself in this world and use whatever resources I have in my disposal to solve the problems being described

23:05It's living in the moment and not in the character sheet which um That's that's my kind of fun and I think on the further spectrum if we go into sticky fingers d&d story d&d, you know Like forget the trap. It's like the trap is a complication from something else We create we collectively decide okay, we're going through the dungeon and there's a complication What is it a trap springs? You know what I mean? We've all just even decided that the trap is there forget how we deal with it so it's like Three totally different approaches to the idea of a trap but that to me is like the joy of the 10 foot pole is just being like Hmm, I can pull vault I can pull vault with this that's how we get over the large gap, you know, yeah Yeah, I think I think a big part of maybe where the miss where we're missing the connection here is that yeah shopping like inventory and shopping at the sort of beginning of An osr game sort of a foundational part of it is just like okay. We're in town. We're preparing for this expedition

24:06Right, even if you say like okay, we're at the entrance of the dungeon. What did everybody bring? Yeah, you know What's your toolkit here like that is like every every osr game? I can think of has an extensive list of items that's just like part of character creation in some way Because it's like oh, what do I think would be cool like okay? There's mirrors and there's cal trops and there's like you know crowbars and yeah 10 foot Like a tarp and like I was I used to Me and jes Gordon used to have like this like Never ending argument about what was more effective in dnd and oily rag or a crowbar And so we would just go back and forth on twitter and I'd be like I use the oily rag to you know Grease your door knobs so you can't come get me and he's just like I break down the door with my crowbar and then Cash you over the head with it. This is but this to illustrate a sort of larger idea of like there's just It's it's it's about it's it's very Zelda like I think in the sort of application of like here's your tools How do you solve the problem with your various tools and like you know ranging from modern

25:10Zelda where it's like lots of open-ended problems to like Old lock-and-key Zelda where it's just like oh, but I have the wind boomerang and that's how I'm gonna solve this where it's like I do think oh start lives in that sort of yeah, it's it's just problem solving and I think making sure that everybody has the toolkit presented to them is the part that keeps it from being so sleeping. I mean obviously everything you're saying is true, but I think it's actually even simpler than that For me the biggest distinction between OSR style play and modern gaming as presented in in this Matt Finch primer is When you're talking about knowledge and perception in modern games you'll often do some kind of check to determine if you know something or can see something and That just isn't as common in OSR games you might occasionally have that like listen at doors or something, but Yeah, I'll give you just a really quick example is let's imagine the PCs open a pod Library and in a dungeon and walk around and find the book they're looking for but it's written in

26:14Mystical wards and things they don't understand in a modern game They would say well, let's see if you can understand this let's roll and see if you can understand it What's your intelligence score? What's your Languages are doing our can whatever check yeah exactly whatever system you're using yeah And in OSR game if it's well designed the module will have like obvious features that the PCs can I should say that the players can then put together to figure out what it actually says like oh there's a Around disc in another room that has all the symbols on it and if they just fit the disc into the book And that will be obvious to the players the players will figure it out not the PCs. Yeah, there's there's no point where the OSR Referee says Okay, guys you're so smart that you figure out that this disc you've seen this whole time fits into that slot No, they are left to figure that out most of the time

27:14Obviously, it's a spectrum and it's there's a mix of it and you know even in Karen If I don't know the answer I'll fall back on the diet fate. I'll say do you know old Woldish sure do a Uh If diet fate and you know on a two or higher you know these words if not you don't you know Or oh you you actually when we rolled up your character you're a scrivener that can Had a background in ancient languages. Yeah, you know this of course, you know, so like you still do that but it's unlike dnd which I actually do think the primer does per provide Unlike modern dnd It's not simply a skill check and I think that's what he was going for so like I agree Like the ten-foot-pull thing doesn't really explain players go very well But the comparison of the two methods is still valid. That's my defense of this Yeah, I think that's yeah I think like the other another aspect of that player's skill is just like thinking to ask things, you know like

28:17Went to probe right like modern gaming You're walking down the hallway the DM says rule for perception right if you fail. Okay, you don't see anything But like players skill and oh, sorry. I've never said you don't see anything based on a role in an OSR game I mean OSR style. It's you know that players what do I see are you okay? I describe stuff they say okay I want to check like I want to look at the floor and look at the dust. Do I see any footprints in the dust? Oh, okay. Well, yeah, you're closely examining the dust. Here's what you know, it's kind of like yeah You're you're choosing where to zoom in and ask and I'm gonna just right reveal and we're not gonna let dice tell us like And honestly the skill in that exact situation the skill is knowing Which lever to pull yeah to execute player action Given the economy of dungeon crawling and that relies on all these other subsystems like dungeon procedures and light and all this stuff That guess what modern dnd doesn't give a shit about so like true like I think it's not just as simple as oh

29:20We do things We we the answers not in your character. See. Oh, sometimes it is it's more that you know, it's like music right music is like All these disparate concepts, but when you organize them in a certain way They are pleasing to the ear or not depending who you are and with with an OSR game It's all these disparate concepts like player skill like combat is sport or combat is war not sport like Exploration and the you know the the the the world being a set place that continues despite the characters interventions Like all that stuff works together That's why would people ask me like what is the biggest indicator of an old school game? Honestly, what I what I always fall back on is reaction rules I think I feel like that it's such a stark contrast to have reaction rules that it says like it just like sets everything else up It's just like it's like oh, so you are saying you care about a new emergent response to you player action you care about danger and

30:23randomness as a like core precept to Play but also you're okay with like being surprised like I think reaction rules kind of hold it all together and games that that don't include it Are really missing out even OSR games or there are some I think that don't include it But anyways, this is neither here nor there. I just think it's hard to answer with a simple Yeah, you know, you have that like 10 comparisons. Yeah, and then play example I do think that there's a and like even within the OSR that there's a big sliding scale about the sort of information you as the DM are sort of like dripping onto the players as opposed to like because there's like I feel like an older OSR style is just like oh There are random things that could kill you and you lose a character figuring out that there's a pit trap there But you come back later with another character and now you you the player know that that's there I think a 5e player would call that metagaming But then also there's a more modern OSR sensibility

31:27That's more like okay, just give people all the information that they would Need to possibly solve this problem and allow them to figure out and fail if they do like with that toolkit And that's where I always end up is just like just give them all the information Yeah, you know give a give them the rope and they'll hang themselves like this is this is like where the danger comes Like an OSR like game often what is there to gain from secrets most of the time? I think mostly not a lot like it's like playing an OSR game isn't dark souls so like I don't think we learn As much from dying as you do in like a video game like that like I think I think you want the feeling of death around the corner and I think you want the feeling of like oh This is deadly so my my choices have consequences But I want all those consequences to be sort of like Telegraph to the extent that I like understand if I'm going into a situation where I'm about to die

32:29Um, it's like I don't mind gambling and tangentially um We're having a conversation in the discord that spring out of a Mootsack from our last bonus episode that um folks are talking about how to best Illustrate How to best signal to a like non OSR player what an OSR game is like to make sure it's a good fit And so we have this really long thread uh where we're all talking about Here's how I would do it here's how I would do it and I don't think anyone came to any conclusion at all Um, but I did there were there was one like summation that I think is still the best one that I kind of highlighted there But um, I do think it's really hard to explain What makes an OSR play style so different in simple words that everyone will understand not because they're they're they're stupid Because they don't know when I say player skill nobody knows what I'm talking about If I tell a 5v person oh no my game is all about player skill they don't know what that mean

33:30And they'll think of different thing no No, and if I say like oh You know, it's a lethal which means that characters might die you know in their minds characters could die like they don't Yeah, so it is hard to I mean I it's really hard to explain it in a way that I think immediately shows the contrast of The experience and I haven't found it yet So I know everybody thinks they have and people like have success stories But my experience has been you just got to play it and then you do there will you either bounce off of it or you'll like it Yeah, yeah, yeah All right, let's move on um, thanks. Thanks for the question Alexis Thanks for joining the discord as well You can email us at uh between to Karen's demo.com or She'll just a message on patreon or Join the discord and leave a question wherever you want And we'll add it to the list all right So for our main review we're going to be talking about the doom of the dark this is in Patrick Stewart joint all the way through with art by mentally frank. There's no other credits

34:35so Patrick Stewart as you all know is uh uh I think he's someone we all Enjoy on different capacities depending on which of his adventures we're talking about Um, and definitely not a stranger this show and mentally frank. I just want to say uh, I think Brad and I have both work work with her in different capacities um, uh, I consider her a friend You know, she just did the art for it, but um You know, we should note that and I've hired her many times. Oh, but I would say that we are colleagues. Yes. Oh, and you are colleagues. Of course. Of course. Yeah But like literally financially she is doing she's like illustrating Amanda P's next adventure on publishing like it's oh Yeah, she's um. Oh, yeah, it's gonna be it's gonna be great I'll say so I'm a super fan. I think more than anything else. I'm just an Amanda Amanda prank right? Yeah Yeah, and you know, it's interesting. I knew who she was before the show But I really appreciate that the show made me go and read like all of her work, you know the boat trilogy and stuff

35:35Yeah, and then you know, I ended up hiring her and she's been so great. So Really big fan of mentally frank here and Patrick Stewart also, you know, we've reviewed silent titans famously with the quins if you guys haven't heard that episode That's a great episode of this podcast dude. I'm a Patrick Stewart super fan too. I love Patrick Stewart stuff man I I'm happy he's doing what he's doing, you know, yeah, he's pat's doing it up I often don't know what he's talking about I do like him that's part of his charm. I think that's part of his trip I think he's like the ultimate OSR tour. You know what I mean like he's like he's like he can't cave that pony He's he's our coach. He reminds that what he said I like kind of like I was really like he's the same he's accessible in a is he? Yes, his games are extremely popular Yeah, well, I know that but like they're also bonkers. Yeah, yeah But you don't know but they have broad appeal. They have extremely broad appeal. Okay, this is the I I rescind my comment Then I was going more for like the suit of 51

36:37Yeah, yeah, he's the suit of 51 of the OSR That's they were there is that is that sorry. We just talked about them. Do the day right? I sent you a game and said Explain this to me you guys Anyway, just suit of being suited. Okay, so anyhow This is the patch of suit joint. There's a couple unique things about it. Um, I should say it's a a five 36 pages um I came out in 2026 and oh it's for tunnels and trolls you guys Should we should we talk about how about this is yeah ostensibly all brats fault. Yeah, it is let's go back tell the story man All right, you know you guys I you know, I try to keep it pretty humble But this adventure is my fault. All right. I want I like I will this into existence and I'm pretty stoked about that So on Patrick Stewart's blog false machine he had a blog post on March 17th, 2026 About how he was listening to Chris McDowell's podcast and Chris McDowell and guests we're talking about tunnels and trolls

37:44The I was that guest I brought it up. I was we like We're talking about it because I was talking about how it was an important RPG to me anyway He goes on in this blog post Patrick Stewart says he remembered that he had a version of tunnels and trolls And he pulled it out and it started to talk about it with the mandoli frank and then she said you should You should run this for us and then he did and then they figured out they should just publish this adventure And so they did what the heck man this anyway your guest you are guest To that. Thank you. Yes. Yeah. No, I'm not I'm not look. I don't I'm not salty that whatever that I would fish I don't care about that. I'm just I'm more just a little bit gobsmacked about this butterfly effect that You know, I decided to publish an adventure called hideous daylight and then I met Yohai who played it and then the butterfly flapped its wings and eventually I have wheeled a new tunnels and trolls adventure and existence by one of my favorite writers like that's crazy It really is when you think about I mean this scene is not that big

38:46And so it's like when something like that happens like yeah the reverberations of that are heard throughout the The blogosphere as it were Yeah, so this is pretty cool Well, so I just want to just think we should give some backgrounds and tunnels and trolls Yeah in our new Popular segment System matters. Yeah, oh, yeah, we have a theme song Oh Matters I'll fix it in post Okay, so You'll talk about this um Sam you've never played it right? Is that no never played it? I played it once I have a Quaker friend who um Ran it for me and made me appreciate it. He thought I would like it's Minimalist perspective Would you call this the RPG of friends then very good that was very good That's good because friends are what the Quakers call themselves. Thank you. I always I the Quaker soon pretty cool

39:52They're awesome. Are you kidding me? They're awesome. Yeah, that's like I you know I don't know how my research like religions that's just like do I need a religion like what would it be? It's like I mean Sam going on Google do I need a religion? It's like one of those Christianity Commercials you see that he's like yeah, he's searching like I'm searching for answers what what what questions? What you know all right go ahead red tell us tell us about the system I'll tell you a little bit about tells controls so I've I've Several editions of this game. I've played I played a pretty share pretty fair share of it I've talked about this game a lot about on this podcast and on the fashion land podcast with Chris McTowel Real real short this is the second role-playing game ever published was written by a guy named Ken St. Andre I think it came out 1975 first edition kind of collectively And everyone has decided fifth edition is the sweet spot. So that's the one I have now even though Patrick Stewart Refers to 7.5 edition which I also have I don't think that's all you should look at you can actually buy fifth edition on drive-through RPG

40:56But there's a more modern edition and then there's like a brand new edition thing I kick started. I don't know what that has to do with Old tunnel controls at all. I don't have any idea I haven't looked at it So I'm gonna talk about let's talk about fifth edition because seventh is close enough that it's kind of the same mechanics This is very this was written in a response to D&D because Ken St. Andre thought dunges the dragons was too complicated So this isn't looking at OD&D. I can I can see it. I can see the spark. I believe I know I actually believe if that's actually not true What he created it because he saw D&D and then said he didn't understand it Yeah, sure I want to bet it yeah, it's so So real quick let's go through some of the basics In fifth edition we have six stats strength IQ Luck constitution dexterity and charisma all right three of those are important for combat you look at strength Dexterity and luck

41:58Any of those in 36 to generate your scores and if your scores above 12 You take that number so for instance you have a 16 in strength you would take four And that contributes toward your combat adds Okay, we're gonna remember our ads for later Important thing about character generation is that Triples add and roll over so if you roll three of the same number you add them all up and roll them all again So you could feasibly start with a infinite amount of any of these stats they explode Also kind of ludicrously you pick a kindrid, you know, which is like your fantasy race And these have multipliers for stats so for instance dwarves start with times two strength And leper cons start with I think 1.5 luck like they have incredible luck Now So you could start with a Insane unbalanced amount of these combat ads, which is the number you roll for combat To to get into fight you just take a fistful of d6's based on what weapon you're using add your combat

43:04Take everyone else in your party add all those together and you come up with one big ass number when you've probably just rolled like 15 d6's all right Then you compare that to the monster score. We'll get to that in a minute Whoever has the higher number you reduce the low from the high and that's how much damage rolls over to that party And you decide how it's spread between those individuals armor is damage reduction Monsters are really interesting Way they handle monsters monsters just have a monster rating So the way this works like let's look at a tiger all right a tiger has a monster rating of 44 That's the only stat for monsters is that 44 I love that so the way you the hot the way you understand monsters is that is that number is effectively their amount of hit points All right But you also use this number to figure out how much damage they do So you round up to the nearest 10 so for 44 we round up to 50 divide by 10 so we get five that's how many dice you're rolling for the tiger your tiger is rolling five dice

44:10And then you add half of the monster score to their ads So the monster is rolling five d6 plus 22 And you compare that number versus all the dice and all the ads the player is trucking and you can buy a witches higher and subtract the low from the high And that's how damn this is why I pushed back when you said it was too complicated because that was not the problem No, let's see didn't understand it Which is not the same is too complicated because even though yes, it's a much lighter system in many ways The combat which when I first played it the combat I just I liked the idea of a fistful of d6's but also it's like way so I have to do a key round up divide by 10 And then and then you want to adjust it based on these other circle It's just like it's like so many leaps you know Yeah, and this this sounds like a very simple system right we're just mashing armies together and they'll just track the low from high But the minute you start having Combat like details it gets really muddy like what if an archer wants to shoot a magic user before they cast a spell like how do you adjudicate that?

45:17You know what I mean? It's like yeah Do you just do damage to the magic user and they just die or do you do like figure out okay? The magic user you roll your ads, but just purely defensively and they compare that you know like There are all these weird things you have to kind of um figure out Yeah magic is really interesting all the spells Have names like take that you fiend and oh go away and that's a nadi beard and like you cast the spell by yelling the name um It costs strength to cast a spell so wizards are constantly like reducing their own power by casting spells um If it's seven editions the one Patrick use and that adds a new stat called wizardry which is like a magic point system So you're not reducing your strength you're reducing this other pool which is also magic resistance anyway That's neither good or there Also adds like spite damage other stuff. We're gonna stick to fit the addition for the description Um one other thing I think was worth noting is saving rolls It's pretty simple the way you it is handled

46:19I'm friends so You have levels of saving rolls. They're divisible by five a level one saving roll is 20 So for instance if you have to roll a luck saving roll you take 20 you subtract your own luck score from that to a minimum of five So if you have eight Luck then your saving roll is now 12 all right you rolled 2d6 and you have to hit 12 which some it's like very difficult to do in most cases But again, this is another area where if your old doubles you add them and explode you roll again So you could get lucky oh I rolled two three is like that's a sex keep rolling, you know So you could explode over the limit, but it gets increasingly Unfeasible that's that's it that's how to play the game and because it's so simple tunnels and trolls really births Solo play Uh in a big way there are a bunch of solitary adventurous for tunnels and trolls the version I have is actually 5.5 edition the only difference between 5.5 and fifth edition is that it adds a Solo adventure to the back called buffalo castle and five pages of Ken St. Andrius house rules

47:23What do you do weaker house rules you wrote the game like what are you talking about anyway? That's the only difference between 5.5 and 5 and Fippe addition yeah, and they make a there there was a whole bunch of solo modules made. Yes, not just play Uh, can I add a few I played bustle buffalo castle. It's pretty fun. You know, it's fine Can I add that the number one reason I would collect The solo adventures is Liz Danforth who did yes a shit ton of art for all the and edited it and did yes a bunch of like I think she even Uh acted in like a game design capacity at very time. I think so Liz Danforth. I think Whatever accolade she's received is not enough. She's underrated. She is a fantastic Fantasy she's still doing it. She's still doing it. She's also like she's also like a academic But I just looked up city of terrors, which is a Liz Danforth solo module You can get it right now on eBay for $30 and it looks fabulous and dude look. I'll never run this but

48:25Ah, this art looks so good. Oh, look at that map. It's sick. It's so good So I yeah Liz Danforth rules and is a big part of why it's awesome. Yeah Anyway, all right, thanks for that. Thanks for that you guys Let's get into this adventure itself Brad, what is the doom of the dark all about? Yeah, this is um This is a site-based adventure here the premise is that players are staying in this remote In which is in a ruin the tower kind of in the middle of nowhere um You arrived just before evening while you're in bed You hear another guest arrive at the end And suddenly the world goes dark like darker than dark like darkness overwhelms the world the only light you see is coming from below in the common room and From there you quickly learn that a sorcerer Has entered this ruin and at below the ruin is a um

49:27Was the site of an ancient ritual where like this ancient elder darkness was sealed away for like 13 000 coins of night And that this sorcerer has just released them and he has to count the coins before darkness again overwhelms the world So throughout the dungeon Going down to try to stop the sorcerer from unleashing infinite darkness into the world and the whole time you hear him counting And there's a real time timer you have six hours and a great little chart I'm like, okay, if you've been playing for two hours then uh he you hear him yell 8,500 and four days seven eight Thousand four so you hear this sorcerer counting his coins the whole time as a kind of action timer And you got to go down and stop this guy from Creating infinite darkness in this darkness themed Kind of you know weird Patrick Stewart fairy tale dungeon. Yeah Um you guys want to add anything to that No, I think that's a very apt description. So uh yeah, let's talk about the art and layout um, you know, it's a mentally frank

50:29We love her. I don't think you're saying any surprises here any uh, you know speaking for myself um I I really like the cover. Uh, there's an owl and I like page So what what is this uh 20? Can't see the numbers because it's dark 21 20 page 20. It's a great shot of some the humanoid mice fighting giant rats looks great Yeah, and this is this is crazy. Yeah, it's uh so we had to did all this in charcoal Second module I have where mandalie frank drew little mice with swords Ha ha ha ha Right on uh anyway uh go on Sam. No, no, it's okay. Uh I remember when she was making this she was posting like process. Yeah, which is like just like her studio that it's just Had become increasingly more covered in all of these Charcoal drawings which are very if you've never worked with charcoal before it's um It you you're sometimes you fighting the charcoal because it wants to get on everything

51:32It it becomes part of your whole life when you're doing charcoal like this and I do really love That she decided to do this in charcoal because that the encroaching darkness of working with charcoal As reflected in the sort of themes of the book and I just I just feel like it's an amazing Like I mean what this is this is sort of an amazing like like illustrated children's book Uh, I mean it's a little bit more fucked up than a children's book But it's like it's like drawing from like a sort of like a place of like childhood fear and like all of this Just sort of amazing Moodyness and like light and darkness and I mean she's just she just did such a great job It's it's one of the more beautifully illustrated books. I think that has been Uh made in RPGs and it's just like really succinct and like well put together We got this great map that actually reminds me a lot of this uh, we were talking last week about the uh

52:35The mouse the mouse reader adventure with uh Chris McDowell the The similar like what do you call it like sort of dollhouse style yeah cabinet curiosities. Yeah, like uh, you know cross section Yeah, this is another greatly. I think I really this is a really well You know put together cross section map, but um yeah, it's uh, yeah, it's just very cool Yes, Sam has the words. I just like the pretty pictures uh lord guys the the the the victory spread is really great too at the back Yeah, you know, if you win this adventure, it's just this idyllic little set piece, but you know I will say if you do succeed this art We'll cease to exist because daylight will return to the world and you won't you won't be able to draw it in total The nighttime it'll be proper nighttime. I have no more nighttime. What are you Brad so many love the love the art on this book It's so just the soft focus on everything with the charcoal at all. It just bleeds together

53:36really gives it this abstract weird quality to it you'd never quite sure what you're looking at even the things that you are sure you're looking at it's like wow, this is just You know just the soft focus just makes this so enticing. I love the borders of these coins dripping down on every page um Yeah, it's just really feels so dreamy that it's just perfect um I think also you know, I have the print version. I got from the Kickstarter And I think just the way charcoal art like prints It's so much nicer looking on paper than on a screen, you know, just like the backlit like charcoal stuff on the digital It still looks great, but Just to have it like the light the way it reflects off of paper. I think really just makes it even even more Lovely um, I don't know I can't say enough good stuff about Amanda Lee Frank. I'm always gonna be a fan of whatever she's doing and This is just just terrific love the owl stuff. Yeah, I think it also

54:38She's perfect for this adventure's themes. Yeah I can't imagine anyone else doing it Maybe a few of the evil, but I can't she does a she does a really great job Yeah, all right. Let's move on to the real stuff here. Yeah Brad Yeah, what did you think of the deal with the dark? I think this is great. I mean, this is really It This feels kind of like a loose joint from Patrick Stewart like he has so many sides where he's like It feels like this is just something, you know, in his blog He's like I whipped together this one shot to play with friends And I kind of get that feeling reading this not to say he talks to you like that he talks to you does has all these conversational sides where and Areas where he's kind of just waving hand waving the rules or hand waving logic You know, it's like this is magic. Don't worry about it And it all adds to this very dreamlike quality that I think really works

55:38Um, I think the dungeon crow is satisfying. There's different routes. There's different ways To manipulate size that totally changes how this plays like it's feasible to play this Really in two different sizes is it though? Is it feasible? Is it is it is it is it is it winable in two different sizes I don't know um, I think we'll get to that um I think the The encounters the weirdos populating this are really just again inventive and dreamlike I like how somebody's connect there's kind of a some stuff that feels a little random like the you know mild spoiler is a big hand encounter seems like this kind of incongruous Well, okay. Yeah, I don't know what's going on here And then you find the connection later that makes it feel oh my god. Yes, this you've like you've tied it together in a way that's so just pleasant You know like So I love the inventive this on display here um, I think um

56:42It's really strange that this is a tunnel's controls adventure. I don't know what else to say about it It's just is what it is I don't think it particularly strongly suited to tunnels and trolls I think you can make this work for most role playing game systems um, I also think it's a little heavy on encounters that feel like overtly combat Centric There's a lot of fighting here. I mean, and there's a lot of encounters where you could probably bargain or negotiate or sneak by There's a lot of like hostile stuff here that I Felt maybe a little imbalance in the dungeon like it's craving a little bit more like empty rooms or interesting Just you know interactive stuff that wasn't tied to like a weirdo that maybe could kill me Um But this is just a really nice way to spend my time here. I was I'm a big fan and I don't know if I have anything else inside for the say how about you Sam you want to go next? What did you think? Yeah, sure I so this I yeah, I mean I think the experience of reading this was

57:47Really delightful to me. I think overall. I just like I I just enjoyed it as a book um Excuse me. I I don't That doesn't always happen. I think that's a that's People people I think talk a lot about like oh, I just read RPG books as books and I oftentimes I'm challenged by this a little bit don't believe them when they say that it's the same and it's great and they love it This is one where I read it and I was like oh, yeah, this was just enjoyable to read I just I got a lot out of just reading it like in the same way that you would get a lot out of reading like a whimsical dark fairy tale that just like unfolded in a way where you're like wow this is this is this is like a total You could have this could be a labyrinth style movie with muppets and one you know human Doing a really good job of treating muppets like people

58:48um And it just I don't know like it felt a little bit like the experience of like you guys you guys in the game limbo Yes I got a lot of like limbo vibes from the stars like a Tonal the black and white but also just like yeah, like the moody It looks every moody setting for an adventure and I really I really enjoyed that What was moody about it was it the two moonheaded men squeezing a third's head into a jar It just had these yeah these incredible moments Like That juice is the most important thing in the entire module look go ahead That's squeezing the squeezing moment where it's just like do you see two moon goblins and they're squeezing a third moon goblin was like That's what sold me. I was like okay. Yeah, here we go Uh, yeah, I just This is exactly the kind of thing I want to run like unlike I want to take all of Halloween and run this game Yeah for like a group of friends like it's just it's so

59:52uh, yeah, it's just I don't know it's so evocative um Obviously like I do think you're right Brad about the the amount of like it's fighting It's it's fighter than I expected it to be um, but I think overall too. It's just it's more approachable than I expected to be like We were joking before about like Patrick Stewart's work not always being the most approachable thing like this is very Like you could put this down in the table and run it you could run this with shadow dark and it would make a lot of sense to run it with shadow dark in some ways because we've already got a timer element at play Yeah, the whole thing is based around like oh the light's gonna go out um, but Uh, it's obviously they're they're different systems and like it's leaning so strongly into fairy tale with its like Approach to magic and it's like sensibilities that like there is like I'm all At a loss of like what is the right RPG for it because like we there's not a lot of like like strictly fairy tale

1:00:54Like games like that like I think Karen and Dolman would like get into that realm But this is dealing with like it's more dreamlike it's more dreamlike yeah, and it's like Maybe it's true. I don't know we can't just throw everything that we don't understand I do think that this is a really sort of Just amazing sort of setting unto itself Uh, yeah, I look forward to figuring out how I would want to run it because I'm probably not gonna learn tunnels and trolls just to do this You know, man, I taught it to you I guess I do this with tunnel guns and it would be the exact same, you know I think I would probably just FK are the shit baby sure Just like you got some stats I guess but like this is What's the system that uh just don't don't worry about it? Don't worry about it And then he also has like a don't worry about it about it or worry about it a little bit

1:01:57Yeah, that's it's slightly advanced version Uh, let me do mine so we can do deep down. Yeah, get in there When I dream I have I have this I have this place that I go to Okay, I return there quite often. It's like the same tree. It's it's like the same like I'm trying to tell you um, you know, so there's there's since I was a boy There's this place that I go to and it's like this it's just like this endless dark Landscape where there's like there's camels that ride really fast and there's like um Uh a kind of pallid gray tone over the landscape and um lots of different things happen there And I it's it's like a reset like every time I go there. It's like a reset of the whole world Um this this place as I was reading this thing I kept thinking like Is this the dream world as I am is this because it really tonally reminds me of the dream world which made it actually

1:03:05Terrifying to read my literal dream literal dream world that you go to some time is similar to this world. Yes, it's Similar to this yeah, and so I did it I do it. It's very easy to read um my so if you go listen back to any of our petrius To it reviews I always say the same thing I always say I don't feel smart enough To to uh understand or enjoy his modules I felt a little bit smart enough to read and understand this um mostly because I I feel you can feel the fact that it was a one shot that he just sort of turned into something You can feel that he just was like this was one night. I had one night. I took this game. I'm bottling it I don't care. I'm just gonna put it out there not even thinking about it um and I think that that's to the game's Benefit um, I think Patrick Stewart is so smart sometimes That he Doesn't know how to talk people who aren't maybe in the same universe It's like that xkcd comic where they have these two geologists who are both talking about they over assume what the regular person knows

1:04:12You know um yeah, and uh he doesn't do that in this he's just like a wacky down to earth sort of like Oh, hey, just don't worry about it like hey, just let them do this who cares, you know, I'm just like hey There's not like a lot of um serious tone to it Which is interesting because you combine that with it what is in my opinion Unexströmly fucked up situation like like A slight tweak and this would be a full-on horror module way beyond what it is yeah Um, there's a lot of horrific things in it including the fact that there's a creepy voice Counting down the basically the seconds until the universe is destroyed And also it's just the bones of a body and the flesh and voice and or the flesh and shadow and eyes and our and skin have all I could so creepy the whole thing is super creepy and that's in the first room So I don't consider it super spoiler because you know how much control over it in fact

1:05:13This is a lot like the chair in that way where you're just a constrained environment and a chair like Yeah, it's yeah, but so dreamtryn and the chair and the doom of the dark All sit in the same kind of wheelhouse for me of like creepy places. I don't want to go to um I will say this one is of all those three is the most enjoyable for me the most the most like oh Hey, I want to I'm cool like I don't have to look at a person who has a lot of teeth I don't and wants to eat teeth and and and once my soul or whatever like I just weird stuff Or in the chair. I got a pee on the chair remember that remember the pee on the chair You you chose to pee on the chair normal. It's just what you would think to do. I think that's your best consideration Anyways, so So my my kind of feeling on this is like very enjoyable to read super unnerving that it's like the dream worlds the dream lands I don't really have any word more but the place that I go to when I dream. It's very similar to that um and also

1:06:15Uh, I like this whole Patrick Stewart being a chill dude like I like this down to earth Not condescending or patronizing very just like hey no like this is how you know what who cares? It nothing matters. It's a very Brad curr style of uh of writing in my opinion not the not Brad curr the host not Brad human Right. Yeah, I love me to tell you different people there anyhow So so overall I think I'm pretty positive of it. I should get the deep dive because I do think there are some problems with it Maybe I should put it more as this I have some questions about it So let's just do uh, let's just do the deep dive so deep dive for the doom of the dark starting Now all right, let's let's let's do deep dive Okay Deep dive what's the deal with the deep dive for the spoilers for the deep test Yeah Forget all the stuff we just said here's the deep dive ready here it is right now. Okay

1:07:17Okay Okay, Brad uh, what's really going on here? Um what it's what to say what to say so yeah the sorcerer I love this bit When the sorcerer was getting ready to go unleash the darkness his shadow his skin and his eyes all openly rebelled against him So he snipped all of them off and those three are now NPCs that you meet in the first room And if you take them along for the ride they provide tangible bonuses to the final encounter Pretty crazy. I love love all of that stuff Really good there is a lot of weird stuff going on in this Dreamy dungeon beneath the inn There are moon faced or yeah moon headed goblins. There are comet headed maidens. They're all Meeting up at a banquet with what's his name heck it's heck it's something heck it's not heck it's not heck it's not heck it's this owl god of the night hecka-ton

1:08:21An owl god named hecka-ton um they're all down there there and then you keep going there are these Sun worshipping mice Who are at war with these night rats and uh oh also there's like this lamp of the sun Which is the only light in the world if you have this lamp that you take from the you it's uh Nothing gleams are looms the darkness has no depth no texture and nothing hidden it the stars the moon the land the world are gone flat black No other light will form flint and tinder magic candles nothing none of it works fire makes it dim heat But quickly fades and shows no light that's creepy fire that heats up that you can't see and then like you can just walk off into the darkness And be lost in this endless abyss and that's the end of you all's just like the world doesn't exist the light of your Your and this is another final fantasy crystal chronicles type type game here where someone has to carry the bucket The little bucket carry i want to go i want to talk about the monsters here for a minute because you pointed out

1:09:21It's very fighting which is true although you can befriend a lot of different creatures. Yeah What what exactly is the difference between um the terrible moon headed goblin men and the We have terrible moon headed goblin men stats for one moon headed goblin man monster rating 10 dice rolled 16 plus five Then we have stats for one moon headed goblin man monster rating 10 dice rolled 16 plus five They're the same exact stats But one is called terrible so is that a different character Who happens to be absolutely not Patrick Stewart hates editors and this is what you get with the Patrick Stewart joints Little stuff like this you okay? Same thing different names. It's fine. Don't worry about it dude Well, I the reason is I was I'm because I would have gone to that thinking oh these guys are like crazy evil But no that just those ones are Just but they also are creating juice that you absolutely need I mean right if you drink the juice so in the first room these two moon headed goblins are draining the juice out of the head of a third

1:10:25And there's this bucket of juice and if you drink the juice you turn little teeny tiny and there's tunnels That only teeny tiny characters can go through yeah thing is there's no way for them to know that Because those guys aren't gonna tell you so how many groups drink that juice, you know drink the juice I feel like I drink the juice you wouldn't drink the juice. Oh my god the first thing I'm doing is drinking the juice I would poke something I would poke I would see okay. Is it like acid? You know it depending in an OS or cell game. I wouldn't just drink juice. I found Like that's I think there's like two kinds of role-playing game You know players and it's also like that thing we're talking about with morkborg how like sometimes Every encounter in morkborg like is like if you eat the you know toxic, you know meat that's dangling out of the wall It's here's what happened so a lot of gamers out there Just eating and drinking the juice and meat everywhere the dungeon. They're eating the juice and the meat even in a long format I played in a in a pandemic era mega dungeon game. Yeah, we the guy who the thing for one of his characters

1:11:27Was he always drinks something if he finds something to drink that was like yeah principle of his character So like just hope you have a juice type player in your group man Yeah This eventually is not telling you any clues about drinking the juice. You just got to rely on well having a juice Well, so and then once you do you are often ignored by the bigger monsters like like you're actually They are less of a threat to you You know you still can't really hurt them, but they're less of a threat to you So if you when you finally found when you finally find like this Bankwit happening if you show up as regular sized you have to fight But if you're small they just think you're like funny and the owl tries to eat you like it's a totally different But one of the goblins leaps up on the table and you have to fight one who's a good giant giant god So it's it's very interesting. I mean, I I don't know what the hell is going on this thing No, it's it's crazy. That's the sort of thing. Yeah, like you said full size big size players get to that bank would haul or the seven goblins seven common headed maidens and this owl god

1:12:35If I if I read that and I'm like an editor I'd say okay hold on this is a TPK like what are we doing here? You know like that's this way too much But I'm curious you know In play is this Are we playing this straight? We're giving them chance to parlay like I don't know you definitely can with other with a dumb waiter goblins and then with the um the the rat king guy and then right the The mice who end up possibly joining you and I'm all for like wildly unbalanced encounters But I do it does give me pause that this is a choke point You cannot get to beyond to the rest of the dungeon without passing through this room a lot a lot of monsters in this one room If you're big size and trying to I would point to Patrick Stewart's note on deadliness at the end Yeah, specifically says I rolled morale as much as possible had foes break run or negotiate as much as possible And had people captured imprisoned or impeded as much as possible nevertheless when the Connor monster rating had zero death is death

1:13:38So it seems like I mean this is I think this is speaks to a broader sensibility in all OSR games that There's a there's we've talked about this a lot. There's a you know a big focus on like oh death is real Death is death is inevitable like you'll die in this game like I think pretty much everybody playing Games is like still giving people as many chances as possible to not die right? I think this is very much made in that sort of Style like well, it's more fun if you just lose something or we like wrinkle this situation a little bit more That's that in a lot of ways is why I got a lot of labyrinth vibes from this is like there's a very like Specific like well We're not gonna murder the one human in the movie to all of these muppets, but we will you know foil that put them in more and more like weird and awkward situations like as per right sort of thing But yeah, I mean it's definitely there are some moments in here that are like whoa

1:14:41Right. Yeah, the default stage should be have a little chat with these monsters before they say have at your feet Well, yeah, in in some ways, it's kind of an Alice someone to land situation. Yeah, you know, it's kind of it is very fairytale in dream Like here's a question for you guys If Patrick Stewart had not written this Do you think our approach to the review would be different? You Think we're giving it undo amount of appreciation Being John Malkovich, okay For those who haven't seen that movie there's a scene in which the protagonist who is not John Malkovich Goes to try to start a puppeteering career and everyone laughs and basically right and then later in the film when he has possessed the body of being of John Malkovich And then John Malkovich goes to His agent and says I want to do puppeteering and the agent goes, okay, great little make some calls Like that's that's to me the sort of that's the image I'm getting in my head of like when someone is such a like comics comic or a

1:15:47a a a a a Ted Chang I guess someone who just shows up once in a while does something amazing and then disappears Do we give them not undo appreciation? But does that slant our perspective on the creative endeavor? Hard to hard separate. I don't know man, you know, it's like my grandmother head wheels should be a bicycle kind of situation You know what I mean the fuck does that I know it I think that's why we learned where the fish is paying from it's just like your grandmother You never heard this is like an Italian thing no my grandmother head wheels should be a bike like what the fuck are you talking about like? Yeah, if you put if you put this sauce in this pasta it would be a different thing. Yeah, no fucking yeah Yeah, but like okay, but is it what I'm saying is if we were to chat we were to have someone who didn't know who Patrick Sure was read this and give us their opinion do you think they would reach similar conclusions to us About it. I think so I don't see like, you know, I don't think I need a lot of context to appreciate what's here

1:16:48Okay, okay, hey, I'm just asking the question. I didn't mean to imply anything No, no, no, I but I do think to speak to this because I think we all have this in the same thing when we read like a Azetic joint or you know look at a monk how thing like like we have we have Creators that have already proven themselves to us and therefore we go in I think from a different place of like being a little bit more on board Like right away, and I think that's true of any kind of art when you go to see you know the new lorgos uh Lantimos movie you sort of know what you're getting yourself into If you've seen his movies before and in the same way, it's just like anyone that's like yeah We we were approaching this from like calling him like an author essentially like we sort of know that there's there's something here But now we have to pick it apart and figure out what it is as opposed to going in cold where Yeah, it's like who is this person like I think if I saw this From another person I would still be drawn in by the art obviously right

1:17:49um But I think I think I think it stands a I stands on its own in terms of like there's definitely something here This is interesting. This is like this is entertaining. It's gripping um What I be looking for more depth in it because I'm like familiar with Patrick's writing style like I don't know like there's I think there's there's definitely it's it's gonna change all of it obviously the way you look at it But I don't think it would be like uh like uh like a like a total difference I mean if anything it sounds like you hi you might have brought in some prejudices from That's what that's existence. No, I'm not that's my point That I was that is what I'm trying to say is that I wonder how much my My previous experience then which I I've run DCO I like I deep carbon observatory. I think it's Honestly, I'm very straightforward module that I really like um and and so I I had a high expectations for silent titans and then red silent titans and and and ran it for my into the odd deep crew and did not work for us

1:18:54So it's just an interest fascinating. I actually wonder if we were to I don't know how we could do this if we were to read something without knowing who the author was somehow and review it And then later find out who it was how that would affect our like if we had like a submission where Like a bunch of creators submitted to like a third party and then they just removed all the names And it you know, you know, it could be like christmas dowel and mentally fring or I mean anybody doesn't matter It can be just people that we already like but we don't know who they are Would it change the way we saw the the adventure? I think it's interesting. I there's something to that We could create the between two cairns uh mystery box submission uh request Game show Whatever where it's like oh, yeah, like you know, we we've we've requested a new adventure from 10 different creators And we don't know who's in there besides we get somebody else to do it in fact, you know, yeah, if I said third party Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly and so yeah, I mean there's definitely something interesting there. It's also extremely complicated

1:19:59Yeah, I don't know how we do that. Look we kind of do this every week though. It's not like we knew who juzai amor is or tom Lajer or anyone that's not the point bell of the but I'm saying like It's not like we're just going to see You know score sazy films every week. It's like most of the stuff we read we don't know who these we don't know these Sure, then we read them and then we get to know them and because their works speaks for itself, you know, and all right all right I were sitting my suggestion If you guys have any final thoughts on the doom of the dark. I don't know. It's fun. I want to play this This is just I love the timer. Love the dreamy is you know, I think when you put it in a category with Uh the chair and I do like stuff like this We've awakened something inside of red. I mean, I don't know what to describe. You know, it's I like dreamy stuff That stays single location dream like horror

1:20:59But it has a I won't say actually you know what there's one thought I wanted to share about this When I something I assumed this was going to be and it wasn't at all I thought this would be more about darkness Because Darkness is really the backdrop I was expecting the whole time. Yeah, the light but I was expecting And you know like the first NPC you meet as a shadow who can like disappear into other shadows and pop out right I was expecting a lot more Maybe I don't necessarily puzzles, but more encounters a deal with light and darkness and really that was it after that We're in the darkness is always a backdrop. You don't use the darkness and you also don't run from the darkness It's true. It's not actually it is literally about the doom of the dark um uh, so like by the time I got to like the dumb waiter and the um Some of those encounter like when I was on room four or five. I was like, oh man like this isn't what I thought it would be And then they kind of won me back over because I don't know I'd like the weird mythos who was creating for itself

1:22:01But it really kind of defied my hopes for it I'm not the same disappointed, but it did I really thought it was gonna go that way, you know Yeah, like this is the one where he he really delves into like interesting puzzles surrounding light and darkness Yeah, there's not really any puzzles at all. I mean there's like things you can puzzle out but I think navigate a tone, but like yeah Navigation is a puzzle. That's yeah, that's fair and my correct assume that Amanda played in this game I'm mentally frank was in the game. He's he ran that became this adventure Somehow I think that's true even though he doesn't I don't think it's Sites her by name. I'm pretty sure she was one of those players that was in the blog, but which if you think about is pretty cool to get an artist to then Illustrate the adventure that you ran for them. That's pretty literally what happened with me and direct son and Familiar tower. Oh, yeah, I took him aside afterwards and like how do we make this happen? Yeah That's cool. What do I gotta do? all right, well

1:23:04This has been between two carrots you can find us at between two carons.com or in our patreon at patreon.com Slash between two carons You can also do in our discord and get in on the conversation and please leave us a review on apple podcasts or wherever you might find To review podcasts is that's a thing. I know Spotify is comments, but you know what I mean anyhow Yep, thanks to Bob and McKelver for the music and bumpers and Thanks to Skullboy for making all our merch which you can find on Also from our between two carons.com website you can get links to go to his website betterlates.com number one Internet and Join Brad's patreon at patreon.com slash Brad Kerr and become a member of Brad Kerr and finally Thanks to you our listeners for making this show happen Brad Take us home. All right. Hello folks Nice to see you all. How's it going folks? I want um, you know

1:24:07We've talked a lot about doom and darkness, but it's not all doom and dark because sometimes it's nice and and light and it's important to always find the life I and the kind of good stuff in the dark and sometimes it's nice to turn off the light sometimes are pretty bright and also I think it's important to also Check the batteries in Your your your old electronic devices your flashlights, you know they get they get uh They get they get corrode sometimes there's corrosion Yeah, you ever do that you pop open the old gameboy pan i say oh why could go for some legend is elder uh Link so weakening here Fire it up. Uh-oh doesn't turn on and the battery pack is full of goops for like white crud Because you left the batteries and then they leak folks the battery is leak batteries leak so uh take them out check check them out, you know That's my final thought really is check your batteries and make sure they're not leaking

1:25:09And um, I also want to remind you to always um To always um just uh just um just really Watch out where you're going when it's really dark out don't bump into stuff Talk last week a lot about uh about safety staying safe. I had a great response to that lots of safe safe heads Safety fans reaching out. Thank you. Thank you Brad for bringing awareness to safety. Thank you for You know, but people don't talk enough about staying safe and uh and stay you know wearing helmets and wearing high vis-vests and always staying safe, but Folks, we're out there. We're out there us. Us safety heads are out there and and and and and I see you and I want you to know that you are seen And we we respect safety and we really want to To emphasize how important it is to be safe and that's why I always uh Shutt carry a flashlight with me in case it gets dark Um, I'm kind of a flashlight guy. I'm gonna come up, you know people say Brad let's see your EDC and I'm like

1:26:13Sure, I know what that means and I'm gonna show it to you and I've got I've got my my different flashlights for my EDC my EDC flashlight you guys have EDC flashlights you guys got that I Got flashlights in your bug out bags I don't know what that bug out bags carry is what he's talking. Oh I have a pouch sometimes referred to as a fanny pack. Oh, yeah psyched about that name, but it's right what it is I like to have a I got a little bum bag. Yeah, I like to just have the you know have the tools for whatever situation My right it's good to have a couple aspirin on hand in case somebody's got a headache It's nice to have some breathments. I know many times my good buddy Brad Kirk has Handed me a fisherman's friend and said here we go buddy You're you're you're smelling a little foul right now. No, no, no, it's never a corrective mint. It's always a It's always a happily a mint freely given as that's right as it said No, I'm just doing a little joke there about my buddy Brad telling me that I'd stinky breath

1:27:16I would never he's he's never done that You guys shining a light into our eyes like some sort of cop right now. Sorry. No, I just wanted to show you this flashlight I really like Whoa, it's an energizer The reason I like it is that it is magnetic on the back So when I am doing work, I can just pop it on to thing a metal and then it just lights up the thing I'm working on So that's I got this look I don't have with me. I got this little flashlight here with me It's got a little clip So I can stick it on the brim of my cap if need be because you work and have a and have a head like well, you know I have my EDC cap as well. You got always be carrying a cap Yeah, yeah, you got to be like ready for anything And that means having a lot of Batman style gear sort of Honour about your person does make you feel a little bit like Batman when you got you know your pouch and your your pockets full stuff And you got your your hat has a special light attached to it and these people are dorks So you go on the EDC look at this. Yeah, this is what it turns into you go into this EDC redhead and say oh Always carry this with me every day. I've got a kindle and three guns and

1:28:20And a parent word and a compass, you know, come on. I think when you come when you extend you guys see this you see this You guys pull out strange knives Yes, it's not nice with the brush. You know what this is for you guys know what this is Is this shaving is this is a foraging knife? It's for mushrooms. Oh, it's got a mushroom brush on the other. Yeah, that's right I was a horse and wipe all the poop and dirt off your mushroom before you Accently You're reading your mushroom take the you take the dirt off of the end, but yes, uh, anyway, it's go on Folks, I was just joking about all this EDC stuff. I think all this this that you know come on just be Folks don't be don't be a turkey be cool, you know be cool and everything you do Everything you do try to be a little cooler than the way you're doing it. That's my final thought Don't stand around being content to be a square be cool Put on the sunglasses, you know pop the collar a little bit stop Stop assuming you're gonna need a Kindle and a paracord and three guns every time you leave the house You don't you need your wits and a pair of sunglasses and maybe a mint and you're good to go

1:29:21You know stop stop being such a door call it time. No one likes a weenie. That's what I always say and If you're 10 foot pole at home, you don't need your oily rag or your crowbar It's gonna be okay for pizza. No one's gonna attack you. You can leave the 10 foot pole at home You don't need yeah, you know, you're going to Costco. You know, no one's gonna hit you You know, you don't need you don't need to imagine all the knife fights you're gonna get into on the way in the Costco You're gonna eat the samples. You're gonna get the hotdog and you're gonna go home You know, oh, I need to bring my Kindle in case I need to read in line at cost. No, come on. Give me a break Don't be a squid being a weenie and that's my final thought knock it off Try to be cool for five seconds in your life with God's sake. It's embarrassing And uh, that's it just straighten up and fly right and knock it off and that's my final thought Good have a great day and thanks for listening and um, we'll see you next time bye now. Bye It's a good journey. We went on there