S4E172 | Lifelong Learner: Commit to Self-Correction | Dr. Janarius Asongu

Y'all were one of my mantras, the truth was set you free

But today, I would tell you that the truth would get you into trouble

I am not saying that you should not pursue the truth

No, I am not saying that, but don't have the illusion

What if?

You turn hardship into grace

Anger into serenity

Everything changes

Make you life a masterpiece

Welcome, my mienne

Your host and now joining me

Yanarius Xinghua

Yanarius Xinghua

is the author of the splendor of truth

And beyond doctrine

The splendor of truth was published in 2020

5, 5

Whip and stock publishers

An incredible book and actually we will talk about this

book the next time because this time we will really talk about

lifelong learning

What makes someone become a lifelong learner

Why people are to be and become lifelong learners

And actually how to become a lifelong learner

And to really pursue this question

How to become a lifelong learner

I think

Dr Yanarius Xinghua is a great example of being a lifelong learner

Welcome, doctor, to the show it's such a honor

To have you

Thank you

Yes, you asked the question

How do you become a lifelong learner

And I want to say that everybody is a lifelong learner

Everybody is

Whether they realize it or not

Because you keep on learning new things

They may be profound or simple

But I think everybody have no choice but to learn

Beyond that those some people are really in a way

Systematize it

Like want to study really deep

Beyond just the day-to-day knowledge

I am and I am one of those people

Who tries to to do that

And just like you started by introducing my name

I go

My last name ought to have been Jinghua

But I use but as a songo

As my as my last name

For reasons that I could explain later

But which is tip of that whole whole idea of lifelong learning

But

Yeah, so for me everybody

The world is really

Exciting

There is a lot to know

Ah about the world

And I cannot but just keep on trying to

To grab as much as possible

cognizant of the fact that I would not be able to learn

Or what

Or what I could

So what do you think made you a lifelong

A really a deliberate lifelong learner

Because you did so many studies from psychology

To religion

And you did also a doctor, PhD, and so on

And so forth and you published already

Two incredible books

So what do you think just to

To lay a little bit the context of your life

So what made you become a lifelong learner

A deliberate learner really

Yeah, first of all as a kid

I really enjoyed reading

So I think on my dad

He's a teacher, he's still alive

And he said teacher

And I learned from him

Or rather this let me put it this way

When we grew up

The what had working

Did not mean that you could do physical level

Or do some other thing

It just meant that you read a lot of books in our house

So when my dad said you were had working

It meant that you were always reading

And that you used court high grades

In your exams like hitting the A's and all that

And when he said you were lazy

He had nothing to do with actual work

He meant that you were not performing

That well or meeting his expectations in school

So coming from that background

I wanted and I was my dad's first son

First child too

And I wanted to impress him

And so I wanted to study

And I just started reading

But the more I read

I realized that I had more questions

And so that just pushed me to keep on reading

And reading and reading

But how did my path go this way

First of all

When I was a teenager

I read a Chenue a Chebe

Teens fall apart

At that point I thought it was the best book ever written

And I was really moved by it

And I told myself I wanted to become an author

That is like at the age of 12-13

I decided that I wanted to be an author

In the mold of Chenue a Chebe

I think I've disappointed myself

Because I haven't done that

I didn't go that direction

But continuing from there

I started trying to see

How I could impact my environment

And as a young man

I was acquainted with poverty

Not personal poverty

Actually we grew up as I said

From a higher

Or upper middle class family

We were about the best people in our neighborhood

Even our city in terms of financial well-being

But I was touched by the way

My neighbors lived

Other people lived

And I saw poverty around me

And also my dad

Had

Was a very strict guy

Met us to go to church

Brought us up as strong Catholics

Met us go to church

But also

Met us to lead exemplary lives

You had no choice but to be good

So I was also

Touched by the fact

Even when I went to

To middle high school

With by the fact that

There were some of my

Friends some of my classmates

Who did not care about ethics

Who did not care about morality

And all of that

So I was like

What type of people are these

And so I initially

Thought that

That I could become a priest

A Catholic priest

So as to preach to all these people

Conveils them that they have to live

Ethical lives and to lead

Religious lives and all that

And so I ended up going to the seminary

To study for the Catholic priesthood

But while there

I was disappointed

Partly because

As I said I grew up in a very strict

Moral environment

And I was surprised that the seminary was not

As strict as

As I thought it could be

And that the way

The way people

Priests and even seminarians

Will

Were not living lives worthy of

Their calling

So that was a shock to me

And I started

Telling myself that

Before we

Prish to the world

Before we go out to convince the world

To convert the world

We must first convert ourselves

So I started becoming very critical of the church

Even as I wanted to become a priest

And so I became

Unpopular and ultimately

Decided to quit

To to to live

But I remain a committed Christian and order

But what does this have to do with

Life-long learning

What he has to do is that

Given

That experience in the seminary

It's a very

Most Catholic seminary setting

All are a very

Deep academic centers

Where you are taught philosophy

You are taught theology

You are taught

linguistics

Classical languages

And all of that

So one of the things that I had gotten

From there even though I left

I left after that

And my philosophy degree

It was that deep

Sense of learning

And exposure

To to classical learning

Which just tied to what I was

Because even by the time I got to the seminary

I had already gotten a reputation

As somebody who read a lot

So it wasn't like

It didn't change me

It just pushed me towards a certain direction

And ever since

Upon leaving the seminary

I asked myself

What

What do I make of myself

So initially

I wanted to become a reporter

A journalist

So I went and studied journalism

In Nigeria

Came back practice briefly

In Cameroon my home

Country

And

Got fellowships to

I think I did fairly well

Because I got fellowships

To go to Cambridge University

To study

Or do research on journalism

I got another

Scholarship of fellowship to come to the United States

As part of what was then called the Alfred Friendly Press Fellowships

So and in both cases

I was the first person from Cameroon

To to to to to to to to get those achievements

I think I'm still the only person

From Cameroon to have gotten that particular

Fellowship to Cambridge

And

As of now

I'm just this

This one other person who got the

Alfred Friendly Press Fellowship to come to the US

So

In a sense

I feel

Excited and satisfied

But

So I went into journalism

To write as I told you

I wanted to become a writer

And writing mainly because I wanted to share ideas and order

So after I got into journalism

I really wanted to to make it like my lifelong career

But soon

Especially here in the United States

Given that I grew up in Africa and I had the African accent

I realized that

That it was a little challenging

For me to break into into the mainstream media

Especially broadcast either radio or TV

So I did write for some news papers

Including the Houston Chronicle

I wrote for magazines and all that

But I was not

Satisfied

With that

I

Also

So I decided to move into public relations

Even though that did not require me

Studying anything new

But I moved into public relations

And I was working for a firm

That specialized in telecommunications and IT stuff

And I hate

To not sound like an expert on anything that I do

So I told myself I needed to study more about technology

So I went back to school

And studied data masters in information technology

In management of information technology

And then

Thereafter I also went into teaching and all of those

And ended up doing a doctorate in business administration

And did another one

In cyber security

Because when I was

Just as I was finishing the doctorate in business and administration

I realized that cyber security was becoming a big deal

And I was really interested in understanding

How that works

And so I plunged into that data

Another doctorate in cyber security and administration

And then over time

I've always been interested in psychology

I've always been interested in psychology

And lots of my philosophical and theological training

As well as reading and exploration

I just felt that there was a missing link

There being psychology

That maybe if I studied that

It would make a difference

But what finally pushed me

Tows that was the issue of the LGBTQ

There was a lot of controversy in Africa

They almost turned it into a myth

Some people say that it's wish craft

By the way, I do not believe in wish craft

But I mean like a year people saying like that

And people saying that it is

That it is abnormal

And it is

I mean all the negative stuff

So I wasn't really comfortable with that

But I felt that in order to

I do more or to understand

The lives of LGBTQ individuals

That it was important

That I studied psychology

To get a better grasp of

Of their situation

And so I did

It was that specific question that drove me

That finally gave me license to go study psychology

And I went unfortunately I found a school that was willing

To allow me to do the doctorate without

Going back again to maybe on the graduate or even masters

So given that I already had other doctorates

They more or less exempted me

And allowed me to come into the program

And my research is on on that

And especially I did research on how

LGBTQ Christians are treated

Within conservative church circles

And all that

Yeah

That is amazing

So let's go a little bit back

And really talk a little bit more about

Why do you think setting high standards

Especially in terms of your father setting high standards on his children

Like you

Was important

I think it's extremely

Important because if you do not

I mean if you do not aim high

The tendency is that you will go for anything

So grain of my father had an extraordinary life I would say

He grew up in Africa at a time when very few people went to school

And he went to school

And studied up to the doctoral level

Being just not just the first person

He's family to go to school

He got there and got the very subject of education

So he always believed that education was important

And he used to tell us very clearly

That if he could make it to that level

There was no excuse for us

Not to rise up to that

Up to that

And I embrace that

I embraced it

I just found it to be true

Like understanding how my father

Could make it to that level

I just felt like this was true

My job or my responsibility to go

So I think that setting high standards

For for children for your kids is a good thing

It's a good thing

He enforced it quite much though

But I think beyond just trying to enforce it

For example, by the time I went to college

He could not force me to do anything any longer

But he had already trained me

In such a way that I appreciated that

And and and I went for that

And the evidence just to show you

Have successful he is is that

We are seven of us

Unfortunately, I have a sister who has been sick right from

Bath so she's over 50 years old

But she's she she's too sick

So she could not go

Verify in school giving a half condition

But for the other six of us

For the other six of us

Five of us have PhDs

And the other the other person

Who as of now is the only person without a PhD

Will be graduating with a PhD in May

But by the way, he has two bachelor's degrees

And two must have degrees already

So so I mean and he's lack of a PhD

It's almost nothing but at some point he told us like

I don't want to be like the other person

This family with that a PhD so he went back to school to study for a doctorate

He's graduating this May

So that shows you have success for my dad

Was in transmitting that that idea of learning to us

That all his children

I mean some have PhD some have professional doctorates

Like we have medical doctors and other

Professional doctors yes, but everybody in the families

A doctor of sorts

What does learning do to you and to your soul?

Yeah learning to me is the most exciting thing

It's so exciting that even a grain of as a kid

I wasn't very playful

I wasn't like

When my friends went out to play soccer

Which was the main sports back in Cameroon

When they went out to play soccer

I read a picture book and I read

And I

Interacted with the characters in the book especially if it was a novel

And I would believe it in the world of my own

Like I would be like I'm enjoying the life of like participating in

In the life of those people

Even though I don't think it's a great thing that I didn't do much parts

I probably regret it today because

That would have made me maybe a healthier person

But beyond that

I think I

for me

I can almost

I'm learning is very satisfying

It's like what Augustine San Augustine says that our

That we are met for for you or Lord and a heart are restless until the resin you

So for me there is nothing more exciting than getting new knowledge

There is nothing more pleasing than getting new knowledge

I would rather read a book or explore an idea

That go for a party or

Whatever thing other people enjoy

But I think too

That it's it's it's it does

Really help to ground me

In all the things I do for example

I would now say that I may advocate for the LGBTQ

Community but it's thanks to my learning and that I'm able to make choices so that the choices I make they are usually deliberate

But as you're going to see

When we come to discuss my philosophy it doesn't mean even though I said my choices are deliberate

It doesn't mean that I do not change no because they are deliberate and because I'm I keep on

learning new things

My

Choices my preferences keep on changing but they're always changing based on new knowledge based on facts and not just emotion

I'm very I'm not very much an emotional guy. I'm more of

Critical

Thinker

Yep, I think that's just how I was wired

Let's define critical thinking because that's also something sometimes which gets really confused because

Critical thinking doesn't mean that you necessarily just reject everything

It has to do with dialectics and I really want to know about you what you mean by critical thinking

But then also really go into

What discipline shaped you most in terms of your involvement of your evolution in terms of your thinking because what you're saying

Is really I think the best example of a lifelong learner which means really you incorporate ultimately you

Become you incorporate knowledge in order what to become sort of you the way you see acting experience the world right

Yes, therefore it's exciting. That's why you're basically addicted to it in a healthy way, right?

Because ultimately it's a self-reinforcing cycle, right?

So let's first take apart what you mean by

Critical thinking and then really tell us a little bit more about the most critical study

Maybe you know that they're not, but I'm just curious and then really

How you actually do it from day to day

Yes, yeah, so critical thinking are basically means

Uh, I am committed to what I call self-correction

Committed to self-correction

Uh, that is the way I really put my

Uh, my critical thinking so when I get an idea if I see here and idea

All sometimes I develop the ideas myself

So the first thing that I do is that when I hear a new idea that I think is bright

Or I develop it myself and usually very excited about it

And when I become I become excited about it

And unfortunately my wife and children become my first lecture

Lecture targets I call them and send them down and try to explain this new

Uh concept that I that I have and sometimes in the course of explaining it

I realized that it's not as good as I thought

It was initially or they will ask me a question and I'll be like

I didn't think about it like that and

So uh, basically they were a look at critical thinking is

Simply a commitment to self-correction

A commitment to self-correction

That's you you keep you look at things

And you look at it from different

Uh perspectives

That is what uh, like I mean, even though I'm talking about something slightly different

I've come to call that one synthesis uh like synthetic thinking

So but they it to me the the criticality and the synthetic

Uh approach uh complementary but critical thinking is that

Everything that uh that I take I do not just accept it uh for for for what people call gospel truth

And uh to me the concept of gospel truth itself is uh is very funny because uh, I don't think the gospel

Uh, I mean, there may be a truth behind the gospels

But I want understanding of it is so diverse for example

There's a Catholic way of looking at things. There's a protest that way looking at things. There's all that so there is

So talking about the gospel truth to me is an oxymoron like her

How do you know what how do you know what uh what the gospels are saying while there are different schools of thought

That's a whole different thing but I'm just saying that uh, so I don't take anything for the gospel truth

Not even the gospel

Not even the gospel. I don't take anything as the gospel should not even the gospel itself and so

With that I basically licensed myself

To to critique uh

Anything and a critique again. It's not a negative

term here. It's more like trying to understand

But I was really really and to to to talk about what influenced me the most is philosophy. It was philosophy

I was uh, uh at the seminar we talked to mystic philosophy also called scholastic philosophy

and uh, we had our teacher our professor who was quite good at

Uh, he was quite a good domestic scholar

I'm using scholar in quote because he never I don't have never seen anything that he wrote

Apart from his thesis and

but so uh he

But he was good. He understood it and could explain it

So well like if you start talking he could stop you midway and tell you why you're thinking was not domestic

And he will be right

He will be right. So he was that good at domestic philosophy

So I remember and by the way uh, he's uh, he later became a bishop

He later became a bishop at that time for the Emmanuel Bushu

Uh, a very intelligent guy but very very humble guy

The the most humble guy I've ever met so he was a very humble guy

So he taught uh, domestic philosophy and it was just domestic metaphysics

So one day I'm I think I'm humble but I'm cut

differently than him my own humility is different than he is

So one day he was explaining this thing so well and I asked him like uh father

Um, have you ever thought about writing your own uh book you understand this thing well

Can you have you thought about writing it and maybe improving it and making it better and uh

Father Bushu then now be sure Bushu looked at me and told me that

that uh that uh

uh

Thomas Aquinas

wrote it all he said he said it all to him he believed that

Thomas Aquinas had

uh, I mean like yet resolved every philosophical issue and I think he

lived it deeply uh and so his role was not to improve it

or to do anything but rather to understand it but rather to understand it

I was disappointed uh by that answer but still I respect him very much

In fact, I dedicate my book to to him uh to uh to to to to to to be sure Bushu

uh

So he understood he thought his role was simply to understand Aquinas

and then explain it to uh to other people

For me, I talked differently I was cut off in uh, I was forming a different more

My initial instinct even as I asked him I couldn't figure out anything wrong with with Thomism

But I just felt like you know what this guy wrote this thing

hundreds of years ago they should be something better or they should be something

we can improve on this and that's why I was asking him but uh uh basically

uh so philosophy has influenced me a lot

interestingly

He uh gave me a book this priest uh little bishop

uh I think was in 92 uh one of the classes he had with us

He called me and asked me to meet him in his office

Sometimes students used to be scared when uh they were asked to go to the office

Because he was not only the philosophy uh uh professor he was director

That's like the president of the of the seminary

So it could mean that you have been fired or something really bad but I was I was very confident of myself

I knew that I'd do the right things and all that

So I was not worried I remember one of my classmates coming to me and asked me

What did you do wrong? Why are they asking to come to the office and I'm like

I don't know and I don't care I'll go there in the evening

And in the evening I showed up in his office with a smile and he picked a book

Uh that was written by uh uh another former seminarian

And this book was on Karl Popper

He was on Karl Popper

And he handed uh this former seminarian had written the book sent two copies to him

So he asked me to take one and give to uh to the school library

And then the other copy uh while he didn't ask me to own it even though I own it up today

He gave he gave me two copies asked me to take one to the uh to the library

And then the second he asked me to read it

And come for us to to discuss

So when I read this book about Karl uh on Karl Popper

uh written by this other uh guy's name is Tangwa from Cameroon

He did his doctorate on Karl Popper

That is when I was first introduced to uh Karl Popper's epistemology

Where uh he is actually anti-Thomas

Because he talks about why Thomism claims that uh uh uh uh that the truth is objective

And that we can have complete knowledge of that truth

Uh popper

Rather

says that uh uh popper rather says that we cannot have complete knowledge about truth

For him truth is tentative and truth is our knowledge of the truth

Is guided by our uh our own knowledge

As individuals our own capabilities as individuals but also the overall knowledge that exist in society

So all of that helps us to to understand and he had this idea about

Forcification where because he has a whole theory of science

Where basically whatever ideas you have you have to continuously try to falsify them

And the ones that resist falsification

And the ones that you uh you see us correct

So reading that it was like different from what

We were being taught where we were told that truth can be known for certain and that uh uh uh

Truth is unchangeable

The truth it remains the same

So uh it was it was different

I don't even know why he gave it to me

Apart from the fact that as I told you that I had already gotten a reputation for reading

I think that's why he gave it to me

I don't know whether he even read it before I

We didn't know so I I took the book and we didn't a week even though I was uh also studying

Uh

But it wasn't a large book I think it was under 200 pages

It was actually a small book compared to to the amount of work I could read

It took me like a week just because there were some new concepts I was still like first or second

I was like a sophomore

Uh so so or less so there were some concepts that were new

That slowed me down

That slowed down the pace of my reading but in under a week

I finished reading that book

And I came back to him as he has said

He had asked that after I finished I can come for us to discuss

Uh what I did was I did a review of the book

I did not just come to discuss I wrote a review of the book

So uh I came to him after one of our classes

And presented a copy of my review and I told him I'm willing for us to talk

He read it and he told me that it was publishable material and that I should uh

Try to get it uh publish which I ultimately did

We then had that discussion in which he tried to explain to me why uh

Papa was wrong in certain aspects

And uh to some extent I didn't completely buy it

Uh and and uh up to today

A papa literally changed my life

Like changed my life like the way I look at philosophy

Yes so it was providential

So to say yeah so philosophy has really uh influenced me beyond every other thing

And so I keep on asking and ask in philosophy we keep on asking the question like why

And to go down to the deepest courses and reasons for things

So that has that is what really moves me

And so as a Christian too

Having studied some theology even though I didn't uh do a

I didn't finish a theology degree but I haven't studied part of theology in fact

As I as you rightly said

I've written beyond doctrine a huge book like 500 and something pages

Uh which is a theological piece

Uh I have some other theology works uh uh uh that uh

I mean that I in the press so yeah so I do use my philosophy it influences everything I do

Even uh as a professional right now working the area of cyber security

And you may ask like what has cyber security got to do with philosophy

But sometimes I see how that that my desire to learn to get into the bottom of things

How that helps me in cyber security

But also interestingly cyber security has been helping me in other things

So for example like risk management uh like uh I put that concept of

Applied it to my theology of applied it to to to to to to to to all that things. So as I said

Basically

I'm uh I'm very I believe in critical thinking and I believe in uh

synthesis

Uh which is different when I started I should describe myself as a classic

But today I am not a classic because I think a classic is not as deeper synthesis

So I started from there though just trying to understand things in different field and use the

Benav come to the aid to the position where I can now

Not only do I try to master different fields but I also not try to synthesize

All that knowledge and see how they affect each other how they interplay and how they can help

To to make the world a better place for everybody

I really appreciate what you said about um critical thinking really it's self-correction really a commitment to self-correction

And that's also really what really pop or lays out in his philosophy of science

Which is really the correction of errors right what you mention with falsify ability

And so I think it's so important and I really like also the emphasis that you put on

Understanding especially when it comes to your uh professor your former professor

He's now a bishop because I think this is actually the hardest part is really to be able to understand

Someone else's work

Because it's a very different process

It's one they weigh or one thing of really

They're blocking a thesis right because it's it's from your brain you understand yourself

Or it's a whole other thing to make yourself understood

And I think what he really meant was that Thomas Aquinas work is so

I mean it's I think it's he wrote them. I don't know the thousands of pages. I mean it's like it's it's almost a library

And so I think it really shows I think the greatest minds

That sometimes really your purpose is truly really to simply help the world understand and authors work

Especially in terms of a work of Thomas Aquinas right which is I think

Probably one of the greatest philosophers you know in

In the past like

Thousand years or so. Yes, and that is why I told you that I have a lot of respect for Bishop Bushu

Actually in spite of the fact that he doesn't right

I think I see as humility that he just committed himself to explaining to understanding Thomas Aquinas and explaining

It's so well to other people. I think it's it's worthy. It's a worthy touch by itself

Even though I wrote in my blog

I added a comment. I call it now because my the bishop is called Bushus. I call it the Bushus syndrome

And I call it the Bushus syndrome

That tendency of a student to admire the master

So much that they refuse to think outside of the box

They just feel like their job is simply to explain that master

So I call in at the Bushus syndrome based on my teacher and it's of not disrespect to him

Actually, I have a lot of respect

For him, but I also think that it's

It can sometimes be unhelpful

In the sense that you you you you're so or that you get boxed in into into this mole and you simply think that

Like he said like Aquinas

He told me Aquinas set it all. Yeah, I mean, I'm not there

He said a lot, but I still think that there are other things we can

And we can improve. So I'm just a different type of guy. So my humility unlike my

Mentors humility humility my humility is in the self-correct

I mean the the my submitting my self to to being corrected either by myself or by others

I don't say anything and believe that this is finer. I know that I could be wrong

So in that case I that's the way I look at my humility, but I'm not

Uh, I mean, I would not simply just sit and say okay this philosopher has everything and I just have to know

It's just that's just not me

Yeah, I know it's beautiful. So I think it's really the process right that you engage in in this lifelong learning that really causes you

of

Of just knowing more but also being and becoming aware of so many things that you don't know and so ultimately

You never really know more because the more you know the more questions

You find yourself with unanswered so therefore it's a continuous process

So I really appreciate that and I think it's so powerful

I'm also curious what you think about because that's often what we see right that

Usually when we are in

Our 20s 30s it might be more liberal and then the more the older we get the more knowledge we acquire a lot of times

Which is also to some extent a progression of learning of knowledge of experience right and ultimately with some we become more conservative

Do you see this also in you to some extent or how do you see that playing out in your life?

Yeah, and no it's not actually I've become more liberal

because yeah, I mean like

embracing

All these

Concepts. I think basically I've always been liberal though

but also coming up from a very strong

Catholic background

probably meant that I was

first to embrace some really conservative points of view and so right from my

days

As a teenager and then into the seminary in my early 20s. I already started questioning

some of

those conservative views and and and so I have become more and more

liberal that's for me. I agree with you that that's what other people

That seems to be the case with many people but for me I've become more and more liberal

Another reason that I became even more liberal was that

Some of the things that I believed in as a young person I later realized that they do not

work in history in in reality

So it just made me to become

very tolerant of other views for example growing up

Statements like the truth will set you free

Uh, that was one of my mantras the truth will set you free

But today I would tell you that the truth would get you into trouble

I am not saying that you should not pursue the truth. No, I'm not saying that

But don't have the illusion that truth is going to save you. No

Sometimes you get into trouble because you are telling the truth and in fact if you are a real truth teller

That goes deep into things you make people uncomfortable you make

You challenge so many things and far from the truth setting you free the truth is going to get you into trouble

Like my living the seminary. I think I championed many positions that I'm still convinced today that they were correct

But they gave me a bad image

Not because I was wrong, but because I stood for the truth

uh

for example

seen uh

And I've covered some of those here for for example like I basically

think that uh

That it is unfair for women not to be ordained priest when majority of the christians are women and then you deny them

You deny them uh that part but also just beyond the mere equity thing I've gone and dark research looked at the bible

And I don't think there's a

Theologically strong reason for denying women

ordination

Uh the same thing now with uh

with uh

LGBTQ inclusion

I think I mean that is a little more controversial but

I I've also met a point that they we should include them for example. It is true. I know some even some priests who are

who are homosexuals and

How do you get a church that says that a homosexual person can give you a sacrament

But that you who are homosexual cannot receive the sacrament

Because you are I don't know if you understand you followed by my reasoning. So yeah, those type of things

So I I get into into those and again, I may be wrong

But let's ask those questions

Those ask those questions. So I've become more liberer

Uh thanks to my philosophy, but I do agree with you that many people become more conservative as they get older

but because of the particular philosophy that

Uh have embraced

That's actually pushed me to become more and more uh uh liberer

Another point is not in the book, but it's just don't on me uh on

Uh on uh on February 14th valentine's day again. I like the LGBTQ stuff

So I just said I don't know how it came to me, but uh I just thought see like in the Catholic Church

Uh the one of the main reasons that the idea against

Uh uh LGBTQ inclusion is that the the the the the argument is that uh that it

is not uh natural that being LGBTQ is not natural. In fact, they use the term

contra natura

contra natura

Which is contrary to nature

Interestingly on that day

Something happened like Bob moment where i i it just don't on me that they that it just uses the

terminology to describe miracles

Sentomas Aquinas describe miracles as contra natura

So I wrote something on my blog on that day

I think that how can contra natura be at uh at the same time sinful and

vetias because

Miracles like if before the church makes you a saint

You have to yeah before the church makes you a saint

They have to prove that or pronounce you a saint they have to prove that they say miracle attributed to you

And sentomas Aquinas going back to Aquinas described miracles as contra natura. So it just don't on me like

Uh

You need to have to be

To demonstrate that there's something contrary to nature in order to be a saint

Yet you have been crucified and told are you a sinner

When you are also described as having

Tennis is that a contrary to nature, but beyond that to do

It goes to the question as what is nature and do we

Understand nature completely. Yes, if you are a Thomas and order you say yes, and then you could argue that

They are content that therefore what you understand as nature is everything

That should be and therefore that may be a gbtq is not been natural

but if

You know you come from my perspective

You see that and I'm not being subjective. I mean if you you think that uh that knowledge is

That knowledge is self-correcting

Then you you you you may ask yourself in humility like do we really know all of nature?

and if and

How do we define nature had what we put within the bounds of nature and

Or not so if when you start thinking along those lines then

the whole argument that

That being LGBTQ sinful becomes questionable

Because the question is what is nature

And how do you yeah, of course if you if you argument of in terms of reproduction then

And the the answer becomes very clear

So of course, it's a it's a very very important topic. I think that you are actually engaging and that you have this really open mind

I think that's really really and also by the way and to set set what to set you free, right?

That's also very good question because it also depends on you know what we actually mean, right?

And it can in many ways it actually can set you free but

In in another level like from a certain perspective right in terms of price right if you really speak always the truth

Yes, you will never have an easy life because the truth will truly set you free

But it doesn't necessarily mean that you don't have any issues in fact the Bible usually

precisely

Says the contrary right the truth if you stand up for the truth it will

Just as a consequence by definition. Yeah, you know

Set you into big bit trouble. Yeah

Yeah, Christ himself been crucified

Yeah

It's brilliant, you know, I really really appreciate your work and I can't really wait to really catch up and to

die deeper into your two incredible books

But I think just that we unpacked a little bit

You know what actually a lifelong learner is is already super important because you are really the manifestation of the true

Lifelong learner and now I really for the audience. I really want to know

What can people do if they let's suppose that they think they are not lifelong learners and not like you

But they want to become a lifelong learner. What's your first and most important advice that they

Can do in order to embark on becoming a lifelong learner

Yeah, I think today has become very very easy

Uh

Something as simple as maybe just uh

Just uh get on your phone with somebody tells you something that is new

This thing get on your phone. Go to Google and Google it

But also of course look for the right. I mean they say holes

Thing about that, but at least you can look for things like definition of terms and all those type of things

So now my phone and the internet has become really useful to me

And I think even if you don't want to read and get degrees and order which is not necessary in many cases

You can simply enlighten yourself like somebody calls a new word

Like today we're talking about the epistemology if you've never heard the word

Google it and like see what does it mean and then maybe read even if it's a paragraph stick to the definition

Even just doing that is going to help you and you see that gradually you would really start understanding

Uh things more deeply

Yeah

What are places I've been on the show?

I can't wait to catch up and to further episode on your incredible work

Um the splendor of truth

published by you

And other works the doc dream

And so on so thank you so much for being on the show

Thank you very much. It was a pleasure talking to you and uh

I look forward to other conversations as well

What a blessing to myself and really to the world

Doctoria son ears

Asungu

Yeah

Thank you. That's why knowledge matters

Make your life a masterpiece

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