Roundtable_024 - The Aftermath

0:00What is up guys welcome back to Bitcoin audible we have got the round table back Unfortunately without mechanic. I really wanted to I get it. I do get it and in fact I Think I mentioned that he had stepped down from ocean On the podcast and I thought I had heard that or I had seen something about Maybe him stepping back or something maybe there's a sabbatical hot. I don't know But it was just announced that he was stepping down. He was no longer with ocean like today I mean, this is a couple of days after we've recorded this episode so whatever I heard was not Entirely accurate or I thought it was a total he left and he hadn't yet but today apparently he has stepped down from ocean and Unfortunately, I get it again. He's probably just kind of stepping away from all social things and trying to figure out what he's focusing on

1:03But it would have been nice to have him on just to kind of hash out the the aftermath of all of this since we've been talking about Bitcoin 10 so much Steve though is with us and I thought he had a lot of really fun things to add and his take on it was always really interesting because he was always in support of it and He didn't even walk back anything. He's said, you know, he's you know consistent as Steve always has been and then Jeff and I kind of push back and give our view because we mostly aligned but It was a really good episode But I think just being able to hash out our differences of opinion on the way forward and You know the past or whatever I thought I don't know it's a really great conversation and we of course talk about a bunch of other stuff as well But I think you guys will like it Our sponsor bitbox they make the bitbox 0 to the newest one Nova is a fantastic little hardware while it I am working on an episode But if you have not

2:04Update your firmware. There was a USB so with all the red teaming a couple of things have come out The one that's a bit serious. It was a pretty serious. They call it a very critical bug Was the USB bug I it's not something like you're gonna get remote attacked or anything like that nothing's and danger if you haven't done anything But it means that if you plug it into a malicious device and you have a malicious software and You could actually be tricked to downloading and installing malicious firmware and because of this USB bug They would actually be able to accomplish this and so it is recommended that you do Very carefully again. This is not like an emergency, but very carefully go. It's called like Dixense the DIX EC I think I can't remember exactly I'll have the link in the show notes to the latest firmware if you're on the Nova This wasn't an issue on this older version of bitbox

3:06But again, no Critical like I have to go out and do this now, but just know the next time you were using it or you want to update Be very very careful and make sure you're getting the proper firmware from Bitbox themselves. I do have a discount code if you were trying to get a Nova or actually any bitbox And I also recommend no affiliate or anything, but I really recommend crypto cloaks. They have these really cool In fact, I've got I've got a case somewhere around here So they've got these these really dope little cases with like a couple different things only get like a hold on what not This is the the Nova and just slides slides right in there It's really cool. So shout out to crypto cloaks love those guys. They built they make really cool stuff and to note We will be looking for a fourth person for the round table and we may actually start it was kind of our intent originally to cycle people in and out and or have a guest every time, but it just kind of Got difficult to manage all that so we will be reaching out to people to see if

4:06Maybe we have a semi permanent fourth person, but regardless we intend to have at least for maybe even five people going forward to have a decent group with a broader conversation Because you get the same people every time and to get a different group and a broader conversation on all the things that are going on and with that Let's get into today's round table. This is myself my brother Jeff and Steve the aftermath Maybe actually just in case we we don't it can you give your rough your rough assessment and your thought of if went in and what you Wanted to see Yeah, I hoped that the bit 1 10 software quarter one I thought it was a better set of consensus rules and I really wanted to see

5:09You know core kind of like take a shot and you know Make them have to step back a little bit And but mostly I just thought the offer turned the data carrier size I thought that was just a superior set of consensus rules and I just wanted to see that adopted Having lost the software Yeah, I think it's kind of just To to expect Luke and and mechanic and that crew to kind of like hang in to the You know legacy mothership Core whatever and just continually like fight and be a dissenting voice or whatever is just a little It's wishful thinking because from their perspective They tried what they could and it was clear that the community kind of didn't want what they were doing and they didn't They had been trying for a long time, you know from Luke's perspective. He's just been

6:12He's felt like his power had been Reducing and reducing over a series of what like 10 years like especially over the last five years and So I think it's just kind of like yeah, that was never gonna happen like they were never going to just like stay and continually be small and less powerful dissenting voice and the camp and I'm glad they they forked off for two reasons like one is and what I say they I mean like me too I mean, I'm I'm not selling anything, but I'm I'm wishing them all the best and I'm like helping them Every way I can to like build a good fork or whatever And so for two reasons like I'm happy to see Them start their own project, you know with kind of ocean like datum stuff and they're the very beginning and A shot at you know much better minor decentralization

7:18It's a new experiment to me and who better than Luke to like lead that experiment like I think that's great and Also in terms of like, you know still on the mothership Maybe Luke wasn't the right leader of the dissenting voice of Core like if you want there to be like a A group there that's pushing back against core maybe changing too much and maybe not Listening to what the community wants enough and stuff like that Maybe Luke isn't the right person to be the head of that group. I'm sure he he feels like he wasn't So maybe somebody on new step up. I mean, maybe it'll be Jeff You know, I think it's really unfortunate that they're that they're not gonna be there in that in the same way I think to me the growth of ocean and The growth of support for filters and knots and all of that that we were seeing

8:19Was just like just required patience like I think I think if you were patient and you let the growth of datum the growth of knots and and just decentralized filter adoption be the thing that was you know Just slowly trickling in getting bigger whatever You know slowly snowballing that that was really the the better thing Because no there is no perfectly even you know like the cord is I'll tell you like you know Well, you can't stop all of it. We can we can do it another way, you know and so so like How you gonna stop me? Yeah, the whole goal is to have to have a a culture that Just is not welcoming to the sort of spam right and so if you're blocking it or Making it difficult to get these things into the mimple then that's that's a

9:20decent, you know approached all of this and and and so having having different mimple implementations having different you know filters having different nodes all of that I think is Decentralization right like you let the you let the network and the network node runners decide And and you let the miners, you know make their own templates and also decide and so So I thought that look like I was very I was very excited about how that was going and then when they announced Bip 110 I was kind of like Okay, I remember having a conversation with mechanic He was like well we tried it this way and it wasn't working so we're we're gonna try it at you know We're gonna try to solve for whatever you're gonna try to fork it off as you know and do it that way But I just remember thinking like that doesn't Like I feel like what we were doing we had some momentum like there was more and more adoption of knots It was more and more adoption of you know, dad him and whatever like ocean was growing like I felt like all that was we were getting good signals

10:26Hey, we're winning. It's just slow and and now it just feels like the whole thing was sort of a Like I said before like a foot gun like you know, but the thing is is that I'm not I would not be a good spokesperson for this sort of thing because I don't have like like you need somebody like Luke But it also has you know, I mean honestly Mechanic and Luke together were pretty good or pretty good team because mechanics very good at you know explaining things and talking with people and Luke is not great at that but he He clearly understands Bitcoin right? I don't know. I don't know what's gonna feel that whole and maybe they aren't gone gone But you know Steve you mentioned that um I Feel like they had tried through you know 10 years or whatever and they were losing Relevance or whatever is I kind of felt the opposite um been Yeah or similar to what Jeff was just saying is that I feel like the last two years

11:31It's had nothing but momentum in that direction and I also think in fact one of the when we've started the very first conversations about BIP 110 I I use the analogy or I Mechanic and I went back and forth on this show for some little span or whatever and I really kind of felt this the entire time I still I Mean I feel like in hindsight I'm Justified in that thinking in you know, whatever sense that What I believe is what happens whether or not the you know All the details or whatever or actual confirmation or not or if it's just me Being able to say oh well this happened and I thought it was gonna happen So obviously I'm right about everything you know confirmation bias and all that stuff but Was that it was just a overplay of the hand, you know, it was going all in when you had your first you know Two jacks. There was actual like we have never like this is the most significant thing is ocean was growing and

12:39We had 20% From point one percent to point two percent no from Ocean was nothing before BIP 110 to a full 2% because of BIP 110 Well, it was one but you guys have talked about before BIP 110 was announced right so in my perspective BIP 110 is What made the huge jump and knots and and Ocean like so you're talking about 2024 knots of growing The growth and knots happened before BIP 110 it happened after the Opportuned stuff and before BIP 110 BIP 110 it did take another run after the announcement of the software Yeah, but it was not the bulk of the adoption of knots We were I felt like we were in a good position for a And I mean we as in like the entire Bitcoin network We've never had an alternative client get 20% of the network even 10% of the network That was a huge deal

13:41Like I've always been like libic going was great, you know like it's like an alternative client that knots is great There's alternative client, but it was like they were always like 20 nodes out of 10,000, you know, it was just always tiny and I felt like that was a huge win like you know we were playing poker and And it's not even because like oh, I'm I Was all for BIP 110 or something. I just mean in the sense of like competing clients I think it's important to have differences of opinion about the direction that Bitcoin can go or should go and That that actually prevents any one group or perspective from dominating and I think that's the best thing What we want is the lowest comment denominator of agreement to actually occur to actually happen on the Chain and I think forking away from that puts perspective or puts opinions back in one pool It takes the you know that 10% defiance and turns it into 2% defiance, which can just easily be ignored

14:46Yeah, we it's just like it's just like when when they create You know was it gab or one of these like social networks or whatever and or even even Noster right like what happened is that Like Bitcoin Twitter took a huge hit right like like a lot of the sainter voices left because there was a Sainter place to have conversations and It so what it does is it leaves the normies like without the the alternative the the counter opinion Right and it's not that I'm like I'm not saying we should all stay on Twitter But the thing is is that Bitcoin has the monetary network effect. It is the thing that's like there's only going to be one Bitcoin so So having different implementations and people The minority can win in Bitcoin. That's what literally like like We beat all of the

15:48Corporate, you know big What was the New York agreement or whatever the big influencers during the block size war and Now maybe I don't know if that was like Where the small blockers technically a minority? I don't know if that's true We were the but the node runners were the people that did not have the most like The most political influence in the over institutional power Right over institutional power. That's a good that's a good way to say it and so So, you know Roger Verr had like was sure that he was gonna win he had all the miners He had you know coinbase and all these other things and then they didn't so If if you don't have you know the like an Intolerant minority that can you know keep Bitcoin on the right path I don't know I think he's bad for Bitcoin I do too and you know a good way to have kept that would have been to like come out really in support of Bitcoin 10

16:51I mean, that was part of the reason that I was like so for it is because I wanted them to stay not only that I want them to stay I wanted them to be like the dominant voice of like Protocol changes. I wanted to fire core You know, that's why I went that's why I went so hard for Bitcoin 10 I Would prefer that too, but at the same time I never felt and maybe it's ignorance I don't know I genuinely never felt incredibly I would have been okay Certainly if BIP 110 had won it had happened you know if everybody has supported it out of been great The problem is I felt very comfortable Adopting knots adopting filters, you know those sorts of things and I don't see why Just the slow and steady Promotion of those things Doesn't solve the problem just as well like I and maybe again maybe I'm stupid, you know Well, I mean because when you say there was like a slow and steady adoption of

17:55Filters and stuff and I agree and then core fires back and blows out data carrier size it was pretty clear that Core was going to keep firing back against Whatever knots was trying to do with their their filters and stuff, you know that that's why they went After consensus. I mean core is very clear that they do not want People to have different filters. They want everybody to have the exact same filters But they can't control that right Right, but that's what they want so blowing out data carrier size does what to people running knots Well, they're more likely to be able to control it if everybody who disagrees forks off Well, it just floods the no it potentially floods the network with a lot more stuff that they have to filter out a guess right, okay, the thing I Aside from my philosophical agreement with the ideas of spam my Inless frustration with people saying that if you make the offer turns size small by consensus that you're censoring transactions

19:00That's god that's just just shit grooming dreamy crazy um And as I said a billion times, but it doesn't seem to sink into anybody's brain regardless of whether or not it's valid or it's It means that you're able to stop anything and in fact that's exactly how you know it spam is because you can't just Drink the off-return size and stop spam from happening because I can just stick it somewhere else because it has nothing to do the fun transaction But anyway All that aside and my philosophical agreement with the idea that it must be a hardened explicitly-purposed monetary protocol And the idea of just kind of like sticking in a bunch of places where just like put whatever the fuck you want here is really dumb You'll always be able to do that the idea of explicitly giving those places. I've always thought was a dumb path That said I'm also never thought that that exact fight was existential I tried I sat down with Luke and Chris and mechanic and like two or two or three other people

20:06Um at uh plan b conference in El Salvador and we like hashed it out because I was Disagreting with all of them on this and they were like trying to make me feel Trying to convince me that this was an existential thing and I was like listen I agree with so many of your perspectives or positions on like the general concept behind it But like I'm You know, I was always supposed to be worried about like the competition between Normal transactions and spam While I was using Bitcoin every day and I would never have had a clue that any of this was happening if I hadn't gone to Twitter to read about the arguments Um or if I hadn't gone and done blockchain analysis I use it every single day and I don't think about it at all Um, and there were only a like two or three very short spike periods in which it was truly meaningful And I was like what the hell and then I would go find out that you know, there was an ordinal thing happening during the happening right um But uh, I'll put all that side aside

21:06I never thought it was existential and the only fight That I was truly concerned about and thought was really really important was the decentralization of my name Was the blocked template problem and I put that as At least in order of magnitude more important than whether or not we had any explicit or like complete solution for spam I also how was not even slightly afraid of the bit 1 10 rules I the more and more I looked into it the more I was just like okay Whatever limit the size of a public key to a public key Cool get rid of op if now like I was gonna break mini script and it's gonna break and I and at first I actually was a little bit against the idea of removing op if um Until I realized that You you literally or I kind of dug into it and I was like well You actually don't want to use mini script the same way with taproot because the whole point of leaves Is like it's actually better to not have op if you should have never put op if Inside of taproot because if you do it with leaves it's more private and it's more compact

22:11It's it's more efficient and more private and and both from computation storage and privacy perspective It is better to not use op if and use separate tap leaves which is the whole design of taproot I don't even know what the analogy is but you make a better tool and then you leave the inefficient mechanism in it and everybody still just uses the inefficient one And it's like we'll use the better tool but Still just do all the inefficient stuff is like well no you you make the better tool without the inefficient path and and if it breaks mini script well that's just because Taproot isn't built for mini script and you just take out op if and you just say tap leaf You just place that in it um and it's a totally positive reason doesn't have to do with spam Getting rid of op if was act would actually be a benefit to taproot I think um yeah And absolutely wood but what what it would show though is that no one actually uses it Because like if you yeah if you look at like the correct uses of tap script and and we shouldn't generalize tap root because taproot has things that sorry Sorry, do you work on the tap script? Yeah, I mean what you can see is that like it

23:16um Transactions that used tap script would be like 0.001 percent of transactions over the past like Ever since it was like you'd see them like no one actually wanted mast that all and That was like the the whole point of it. The only reason tap script is used is for the op if Hack to get the data in there. I mean like you said Taproot was so that you could hide all these branches the only reason people used tap script was to reveal branches Like the exact opposite But like how can I get this branch be as most revealed as possible? Oh, I'll use this op if bug As it didn't get used for privacy. I got used for the the mechanism for trying to have the the most exposure The spritz that you possibly could have That's oh the irony that was basically across the board with dip one tin like all this like one of the other things

24:19I think it was like vortex said all the time is like it breaks l2 and and lightning uh Symmetry and so I dug into that too Um, and that turns out to do not be true uh the only thing that it even affects is the very first implementation of l and symmetry And but since like there were two different mechanisms that have been implemented or optimized to improve it And neither one of them are affected by what was in dip one tin so everybody like Screaming that the sky is falling over dip one tin I've I always thought I thought the whole time this was politics like this was about power and I think most people in the dip one ten side talk about it in the context of power and Most people Defend or talk against it on the concept of power is that like Core is the thoughtful organized structure Check your work independent thing and Luke is the defiant fire core path and that is what I heard all the time and that it was really about

25:26The influence over protocol decisions and which voice was going to be the dominant That in my mind Despite the fact that I thought core had less influence than they had had in a really long time because of this debate Um because of the loss of respect when they clearly and I've still I can't believe the people who are Antibip one tin who still just don't even agree with this or don't recognize that this is what happened The absolute dismissal of all the people who run the pick corn software and who care about this and put their life savings in it And the basic of shutting down the conversation and pushing something through into the client as if As if they're just the ones who decide and nobody else has any plot part in this like the dismissal and the the lack of um lack of humility and

26:28um Diplomacy, I guess I don't not even know what the word is the lack of Since in the fact that they were making changes that would affect everyone because the default and the standards of the reference client do matter And the utter dismissal to a 13 year battle and 13 year debate that we're in charge and we're just going to do it Was pretty gross to me. I there was a total utter failure of The process and the people who the few people who maintained the GitHub and who had control over shutting down conversation and pushing emerging things. I think you'd have to be just as blind To say that that wasn't important or that that wasn't a part of this whole thing and that that wasn't really what started this being so vicious As saying that Bip one Tim was supposed to win and it was actually the majority and it only failed because the reminding pools said no

27:32Um, like I think those are equally delusional to dismiss both of those things With that said is What they change wasn't a consensus rule So it made sense that there wasn't much to be done about it because it wasn't actually a fundamental rule of the network It was just a standard and exactly the same way that knots could go the opposite direction Nots also changed it in the client and allowed every user to change it So it was never going to be something that you could have total consensus on or you had Um, a hard and fast rule on unless you change the consensus rules Well changing the consensus rules is a thousand times harder than changing a policy Which is exactly which both core and knots proves to us throughout all of this stuff And the problem the thing that might be existential is blocked in plates And everybody on the Bip 110 side is now saying that oh

28:33A few mining pools control everything and that's the only reason Bip 110 loss just like well That's why blocked him plates, you know Like we all agreed and talked about that being the problem But I feel like the idea of whether or not the opportunity to be one size or not And really the control over the direction of those quote unquote reference client End up being put at the top of the hierarchy over We need to decentralize blocked templates and I always put those in reverse is that If you decentralize blocked templates you are changing the discussion Over who has control and of whether this is actually decentralized decision-making and whether Five mining pools can fundamentally Enforce or reject something on the network but Is sad like I don't I don't like I said I never I was never super against Bip 110 But I was also never super for it because I just did not think it was the path to actually solving the problem

29:35Which was minor decentralization and That was the big problem to me But I obviously philosophically aligned with a lot of the spam conversation and still do I don't I don't think my opinion on anything has changed I'm trying to think of anything that changed because of the the failure of Bip 110 to activate It would be weird. I mean Jason the author of data Still working for ocean ocean still and business like it would be kind of weird if just Luke and mechanics stepping away from ocean is what Killed this minor template decentralization that I know I have mentioned about I still support was growing ocean fully and I hope it does Yeah, I mean it should still Grow right yeah, yeah, so I mean I If there was momentum growing there for that kind of block template decentralization I don't think Bip 110 should have done anything to stop that Well, if for everybody who goes on the fork they may very well have been most

30:36A huge portion of the miners in plebs or whatever that we're making blocked in place And who went to because they were most concerned about that problem in the context of spam And I think it also taints the brand Like the the idea of what that pool is for I think I think if you asked most just a random person who's been in all of this debate And you said why will you or won't you mine at ocean the question or the answer will have Will be 30% about blocked him plates and minor decentralization and 70% about spam and Bip 110 And I think that should I wanted that to be the opposite Um, and I was always annoyed by the The total lack of adoption and caring and I'm shocked how few people care about stratum v2 And building blocked in plates

31:38Because it's got to be a pool man. I know it has to be a pool. It has to be a pool. It has to be a pool Um, and it has to be a pool that keeps growing if ocean had gotten to 7% of the hash power I think it would be a game changer I think there would be a threshold reached where it was made meaningful difference to The profitability and the reliability of payouts And the way ocean was doing payouts For where you literally paid for all the luck and you got all the luck rather than fpp fpp s You know Whatever the acronym is if it had reached a certain threshold of size You could have reached a point where the momentum ran away and Ocean became one of the dominant pools And I think it was always about trying to get one of those pools to become the dominant Or trying to force the hand of a dominant pool to implement blocked in plates and getting those miners to care about

32:40But I think that's the that's the harder route right is someone who's already making money and already doing fpp s and you know Trying to split their margin and taking that like 10% off the top To get them to change the system for the benefit of bitcoin When it probably affects their bottom line And they're already big they already have the probability of the next block that everybody wants to go because they're the big pool I think that's an insanely hard battle But getting a small one they can get a few big miners who want to have higher payouts And wants to build their own blocked in plates and start pooling The resistance so to speak against this Centralizing of the mining pools and this dismissal of Well, whatever everybody can just switch mining pools if something terrible happens is like well Well, how about we just stop the thing that would cause the terrible thing from happening like why don't we just You these Sure, we can call the fire department if the house burns down

33:42But holy shit. Why would you build something out of like paper soaked in gasoline? Stop light and stop light and candles underneath the place we build candles right like it just like you put in a fire alarm put in a Get a fire extinguisher sitting nearby like prevent the need for the fucking fire truck to be there Um, and that's what I feel like is happening is we've dismissed it because we haven't paid any great price for it And the people who did care I feel like just took a big hit and the concern about it as an idea just took a big hit because it got roped into dick butts Um, and whatever proposed solution was for that supposedly I'm not sure that like I follow that logic completely it sounds like we what you're saying in what way the um It sounds like you're saying the momentum for the data and the ocean decentralized

34:42block template construction thing was growing Mm-hmm. I Think it grew specifically because of the issue the the whole GitHub debacle and the dismissal of those about the spam issue and Yeah, and that made it that made people realize I think how important it was to have a separate client and to be building your own block templates And I think that was one of those points of like Oh, here is a point of danger here is a point of contentiousness Where if we have this other thing This would benefit us this this would actually help give us voice or influence in the network itself But sorry, sorry, I am yeah, keep one Well, I was just gonna say like uh But If that thing was growing um then it should still be growing Is what I'm saying is like it sounds like you're saying that the bit one taint 10 thing

35:43Inded that and it's it's like uh Why would that have ended it if there was like There was real momentum there, you know Yeah, probably it hasn't it hasn't ended anything we we just had a I think it feels like a setback for sure Um, and I think it split it certainly split attention away from I think it split a lot of the huge part of the community that was talking about that And it equated the mining decentralization problem With the proposed A specific software plan to fix the spam problem or It may be a better way to put it is to fix the the core Control of the conversation around the spam problem Uh Bip 110 it roped that into the community like if there's a split off of 4% of the community that really cares about a thing and then

36:46That part of the community also like just gets tied to the idea that bip 110 A fork that kicks them off the network just or splits the network Intent entirely into two different communities Is part of that solution it ties those two things together and in the minds of the other 96% The mining pool that is doing minor decentralized simplifying people man I feel like they're kind of painting people as idiots How am I how am I painting people to it is I think it because everyone's their own Yeah, sure everybody's their own person, but who doesn't think ocean is about ocean Ocean mining was about bip 110 right now. We do does the majority of people think that or do the majority of people think That ocean was about mining decentralization or blocked in play decentralization We probably have our our own like little What do you call in our own little circles?

37:47Our own little bubbles here, but I would think the majority of people thought ocean was about mining Decentralization and that bip 110 was this Two little people and the ocean company that wanted to do this bip 110 thing But the ocean company like didn't really agree with them. I would think that'd be the majority view But we all have our own circles when it comes to that is what I'm saying. Yeah everybody everybody has their own bubble but from from what I saw like mechanic and Luke were equivalent to bip 110 And anybody who was following bip 110 were following mechanic look like everything gets anthropomorphized and put into a box like like that is That's the nature of the human shortcut of how we label and categorize things And I think it's just kind of a universal thing whether we want to say that's human's stupidity I don't think it is. I think it's a filter problem right is holding nuance about every single thing and every opinion and every Company or person is just insanely difficult. We have we have the bars number to deal with and that you know maxes at 100

38:54150 200 Do whatever But ocean was the bip 110 mining pool and ocean was Luke and mechanic I think them stepping down from ocean is actually was the right move or them separating Themselves and I I suspect they both did it for the good for the benefit of Ocean of ocean and so that the mining pool continued to do what it what it was doing that was really really valuable and really really good Because hands down objectively looking at the blocks Ocean is far and away the number one thing that has ever existed on bitcoin for the last 15 years For decentralizing the creation of blocks into the miners as part of that pool Um, and it's simply account like you just all you have to do is go look at the addresses and how the coin base are built

39:55And you have proof that that is the case And that was the most valuable thing like this why I made a video Did specifically started with I don't care what you're opinion about bip 110 is ocean is the most ocean data And then stratum v2 or the three most important projects in bitcoin right now um, and I do feel like this Through a wrench into the gears that We're making positive gains in that direction no matter how small or whether or not it was because of some Secondary op argument about spam whatever it was um because I certainly certainly everything that happened around spam and the debate and the whole thing Exploded the amount of people who were running knots and switch to knots In fact, I switched to knots when that happened because I was like seriously like the the blindness of the few maintainers from Recognizing how much disrespect they gave to an enormous amount of the community

40:57Um, and I do totally recognize the difference between everybody who contributes to core and the entire group and What might be a few maintainers and a small amount that have more control over the gale and partially, I think the biggest problem here is just Get up right is github is always necessarily centralized like and github is not bitcoin and knots. I think was proving that And ocean I was hoping was proving that um, and I think it's I think they still are I I'm not saying it's all done and we're throwing in the towel or anything I just I just was very hopeful about the situation and now I'm a little bit murdered uh or um Danpinned on the timeline for success there, I think is maybe the way to put it I imagine like somebody at ocean um, I'm surprised I haven't thought through this before now But I guess it's good that I'm doing it now So ocean I think wants to continue. I mean like

42:00I believe they they are um, and I guess Someone is going to someone in oceans probably gonna have to I don't know I was just trying to think of like how dad um Can you use dad I'm on core right now Um, does anybody know? No, I don't think so wait So like somebody if not um, I don't know That's a good question Yeah, how come I've never thought about this before Um But yeah, so like uh, you know if there's momentum there like it you know, I hope it continues to grow I think it will probably continue to grow um, but you know, Luke just doesn't want to be the guy on that anymore you know, I mean you don't force anybody into anything and yeah

43:03Exactly, I mean the thing I'm saying about like everyone's their own man is like if there's a dude that's been running a company for a long time And he all the sudden thinks what he's doing isn't helping anymore And he wants to like spend more time with his family or start another company Like sure you can you can you can be but hurt all you want about how you thought him staying Would be better for the company, but he's his own man And he didn't think he was making the company better and he wants to make another company And so like what's what good is it just sitting there crying about how you wish he'd stay? I mean like are you really doing any great service to the world by like Like getting him to come back and stay when that's just what you want and you might not even be right I mean, I uh if a lot of these people left um Left the ocean community and Are not you know building towards that data and decentralized template future anymore if like half of those people forked off

44:03Half of those people forked off is because they thought that was so important That they just couldn't resist the idea of starting a new fork with that as the primary centerpiece Because they didn't they didn't know if Okay, yeah, maybe I mean your view is that like maybe over some 10-year period this would have slowly gotten better Either they didn't want to wait that 10 years or they weren't even sure that you were right That it was on a path like that And they it was so important to them that they wanted to see this beautiful experiment start over You know, so it's like I just I don't see you think you can blame a movement like that for doing that because everyone's making their own Individual actions here and like that's the beauty of it, right? I mean So real quick a i says yes a datum datum gateway can use bitcoin core instead of knots because it gets blocked templates from the notes through bitcoins Get block get block template okay, okay, okay, okay

45:05I mean it says it just says that the important distinction is template control a bitcoin core has less Controls than knots my point is that I simply think it was the wrong strategy and I'm not trying to I'm for a better block template for decentralization of bitcoin mining and for the goal that I think I share with a lot of bit 110 people um of Making bitcoin better and more decentralized and more resilient against You potentially centralized actors whether they be miners or developers or whatnot um But It you know luke Can do whatever we want all of them well. They have that same goal. They have a difference of opinion of what bitcoin is of course I mean that's the same goal. It's just that they don't agree that your definition of bitcoin is yeah That chain in that same way though. I don't agree with them and I'm simply I'm simply sharing what I thought what it was the better course of action

46:05Um and But obviously they can do I'm not saying anybody has to like oh God stop your bit 110 things like sure at the end of the day. Everybody's gonna do what they're gonna do um and All I can do is Share my opinion or for what they think is the goal. Yeah sure But I think the analogy of the guy leaving the company is good. I mean like you're saying I wish the guy would have stayed with with the company because it would have been better for the company But the guy thinks him being there wasn't Gonna be good for the company and he wanted to start a new company So it's just it's just kind of crying right? I mean, it's just I mean are you really the one To say that your position is correct and the guy who ran the company and decided to leave his position was incorrect No, it's my position for the decentralization of bitcoin. No, it's just my it's just my position Yeah So I mean, I think there's a there's a reasonable chance that like I mean all this is about disagreeing the plays out

47:11Like I just I mean they're saying that I disagree and I I think I think it would have been better had They they take taken different course of action or played held that hand and or folded for three turns until they had a full house You know like I like I'm just saying that I think the strategy could have been better Like I like for instance, I think you could have one of the things that Uh just going back as a historical example is big blockers um For the user activated software is people talk about all the time how Uh, oh or big blockers talk about all the time how's like oh they they controlled it and core controls it right And they tried to talk about how his block stream conspiracy and all this stuff is like well you guys could have prevented Segwit if you don't know the dynamic of all of this stuff because segwit was a software like the reason the user activated software One was because we had two main paths is a segwit software which was a minor change and

48:15Basically the overwhelming majority of everything that was going on was finally coalescing around the idea that segwit was going to happen proof was that the hard fork that then got implemented or Enforced was segwit plus the hard fork they said okay fine We'll give you segwit, but you're gonna get it with a hard fork So the user activated software put up a defense and said no, we're not going to take your hard fork We're going to go with the less contentious route. We're gonna go with the the less destruction or Mess Disruption to the consensus of the chain the backwards compatible version and you can either join us or not Which means that I genuinely think the big blockers were absolutely large enough as a community and as a market power That they could have said well, we're gonna user activated User rejected software your segwit and nobody's gonna get shit And if they had understood how nodes worked and how the market worked

49:15They could have prevented segwit from ever getting implemented And we would have all had to fall back to nothing happens at all despite years and years of fight But they didn't get it They were saying nodes don't matter and all of this doesn't matter And all is all we have to have is 80% of the mining power and we can force anything on the network And we're gonna get our hard fork and you can suck it and so they overplayed their hands and the quiet defensive or the the Attacking the defensive rather than the offensive strategy was the one that ended up being the dominant I think kind of the same perspective happened here is the non-change Had simply more momentum had more inertia than the change And there is a path where I think maybe that could have balanced in the opposite direction but I think it's on a Laterhand in the poker game But again, that's just my I'm not gonna tell Luke what to do. I tell mechanic what to do

50:17I've I've messaged him a couple times and So I went back and forth on Twitter just in general Not just your opinion is that you might not be right about what's best for block template of decentralization Of course, yeah, of course From my perspective, it looks like I was right but I But like I said, it's all confirmation bias, right? Is I'm I'm equating it to bit 110 because bit 110 didn't get activated I'm saying oh well maybe my perspective was right about it But that doesn't mean anything just like bit 110 not activated doesn't mean bitcoin centralized It also doesn't mean that I'm right about my reason for thinking bit Could've been totally different reason for bit 110 failing than the one that I think it's probably a million other reasons why it could have been You know the dominant reason Uh, I'm just saying that's what I think and You know take that as you will, you know, I've been wrong God knows how many times in bitcoin who's like what the hell does any of us know really? I've been wrong so many times dude seriously either of you know if blocks are still coming in on the big bit 110 fork

51:21Like is there is there still a surely yeah, they've done Um, is it like six or seven hours like what's the thing is one a day I want a day. I don't understand that and I am am I wrong about that? I'm sorry for like What's that I I'm sorry for the bit 110 supporters that might not want to hear me say this but like I don't understand why people are still mining on the bit 110 fork chain Especially when the algorithm is going to change yet I just don't understand what the What the motivation is because like if if you really want this bit 110 Um new coin, you know new fork coin or whatever and let's just say there's two ways that it can happen One way is you know the Luke Blake Fork that's gonna happen in like early September that's gonna not shot to 56

52:21The other kind of small thing that keeps popping up is like somebody's like oh I'm gonna write the client that keeps it shot to 56 it just does an emergency difficulty adjustment I guess that's still a possibility that that might happen um But either way both of those are hard forks If any of those are successful um Eventually they'll be listed on an exchange Which will immediately get nuked to zero um from trading in my opinion So right now you are spending in electricity terms $79 $80,000 For every bitcoin You you mind there Like this is the most expensive way to produce more of a coin That pretty much has no option but getting nuked to zero

53:25If it is ever successful On the exchange Well, but if you don't mind it then there's no chain so there is no split there are no coins so No, it No, no, no, no it This splits happening whether you keep mining it or not yeah I No, but didn't the mining adjustment But the adjustment doesn't happen until a number of blocks right like doesn't Is it time or is it blocked no one's gonna wait So so the the time is gonna take to get to the difficulty adjustment if you don't do anything it's like two years Yeah, yeah, yeah, so you just have to hard fork with a new set Or difficulty either you have to hard fork emergency difficulty adjustment or hard fork which The Blake to be you know the the major one that Luke and mechanic are behind um That's gonna be an emergency difficulty adjustment plus a proof fork change To a new algorithm, but but you don't have to have it like it activates on a block height like you can just say that the next block comes in

54:31Allows this right exactly. I mean like um And I don't even know if you need to wait till the next block comes in Like if it blocks like completely stopped just meaning that the next one that comes in could be the new rules Like which means you could just start right exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean this is kind of a dumb point I just I'm still searching for a reason out there that people are still mining this chain. I just I don't understand And I I don't know whether to feel bad for them because they don't really understand the situation Or if there's something I don't understand a reason to keep mining it Man part of me that that's why I Try not to fight about this a whole lot um because there were so many philosophical reasons that I agreed on when the conversation about spam in general um But I was totally willing to admit that I didn't understand what the hell is going on with that and that I wasn't seeing I was just missing a lot of support because of my social circles or something like that but

55:35In in hindsight There were so many things that the uasf in 2017 had um That bit 110 didn't did not have and Yeah, it was totally different. I think mechanic making that comparison so often um was a little bit not intentionally misleading but I mean like you said I mean the Because of the segwit thing and and pretty much both sides agreed that they wanted segwit That that totally changed the dynamic from What the situation was with bit 110 like I totally agree with you on that yeah um and It's also important to because I see a lot of people on that side saying that Because the nodes Because the grassroots movement I mean I 100% believe bit 110 was a grassroots movement that you know, it was a uh defense against undesirable direction in bitcoin. I don't think that necessarily means it's always going to win

56:39It clearly has to have a certain amount of support for any consensus rules to actually Be enforced you're talking about changing the rules of the entire network um But I think people mistook the The simple running of nodes as somehow the The commitment or the teeth behind market power When the nodes are the way to defend the teeth of market power. They aren't the teeth themselves You know like the node if you're running a node as um You know like if nunchuck and nunchuck if you use the wallet without connecting it to your own node That wallet connects to like nunchucks public node one of one of their public nodes If every of the nine most popular wallets Change their node to say you're going to see Because of overwhelming support from our users. We're going to show these rules this

57:41The rules the change of these rules will be the ones that you see that Three significant exchanges not the three biggest exchanges, but three very significant exchanges said We have so much support from the users that we are going to recognize this as the one that is Bitcoin if 60% of the lightning nodes said our channels will only stay active on this chain Like the infrastructure the people who are producing Used nodes to defend their market position That would have been a wildly different story as to what the outcome was because the disruption the genuine monetary disruption would have been staggering the monetary disruption of 20% of you know, not snows Even if it was all of them which it wasn't but if 20% of the not snows fork off In no particular like I mean clearly there was no monetary cost Clearly the miners if a miner did not know what was happening. They would never have known what was happening

58:44You know like they didn't take a 30% hit to the price of Bitcoin because Because you know suddenly their lightning transaction didn't go through because the the wallet they were using is in on the same chain that the exchange They were trying to withdraw from is on a different like there was no economic consequence of any kind to speak of What happened with bit 110 and all of the major points of attack Mostly just did nothing. They were just not participatory Which means there simply wasn't enough force it was a minority of the defenders and a minority of the offenders the the nodes and the miners and I just think that's simply not enough to alter consensus rules um and what I think we had with segwit and The 2017 battle was I think we had an overwhelming majority of the defenders rejecting the hard for

59:45actively and the uasf Put themselves in alignment with the majority of the defenders despite the fact that the majority of the network extenders the miners We're attempting to force a change And it basically said you're gonna rug us of our new blocks We're gonna rug you of your exchanges your wallets your your brand your everything We're going to take it back in the opposite direction, but specifically they had them that was the strongest force it wasn't a minority of those people it was a majority of those people against a majority of the miners um and that's what I never saw with bit 110 but I tell you the conviction was wild and I was totally willing to be like Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about or I don't see something because you know I also don't believe twitters I've tried to do a twitter poll to just try to get a sense of what everybody thought and like

1:00:48after like 30 views or something on the on the poll like and just a matter of minutes um like 300 fake votes came in for no On bit point out like well this was useless and like so is a perfect microcosm of this whole like I'm I cannot possibly just say that because bitcoin twitter looks like this That this is the actual makeup of support or rejection of this thing um and so My stance was basically that I think whether or not bit point 10 succeeds or not is gonna be the best possible signal We have as to what level of support it has um is just the fork Like I think bitcoin is a better indicator than twitter than a conference then uh message board then reddit then mail-in Newsletter I don't like I don't know what it what the hell anything out there I think bitcoin is a better indicator of the power and market significance of a contentious diversion in its network than probably anything else we have um

1:01:53Certainly not political party You know like um and so I felt like to me bit one tens The resolution of bit one tenor the at the outcome of the bit one ten fork was simply the indicator to me of how much actual support it had and Why it it is where it is right now But so what what you're saying though is that there is actually going to be for sure a hard fork or two like there are Many multiple people there's for sure gonna be one. Well, I mean all signs point. I mean uh uh Act to I know there's like definitely active work every day and um, I don't know if they've released a date yet I think it's gonna be early september But yes, I would bet a large amount of money that there would definitely be one fork uh hard fork for sure um and I don't know about the second one. Well, I was just gonna say the unfortunate thing about that is that this also

1:02:54Deanonymizes a bunch of people's coins again like this is this is like if you do anything with it Well sure, but but I mean like like I'm not gonna dump bit one ten coins Yeah, well and maybe I won't either for the sake of privacy really Well, right but the thing is is that there's a monetary incentive now to undo Like you know any sort of privacy people have you know gain through I mean, maybe there's you know You could sell it through I don't know robos ads or so I don't know what the thing is now, but um But you know, it's just it's not it's kind of unfortunate that The very people who would be or who are pro privacy and everything else are creating an incentive to undo a bunch of thing You know, I don't know Well, you can spend that the other way too um, so before the fork uh Like um there was a massive incentive to get your coins off the exchange Because you couldn't have split your coins because coin bases on the exchange okay, well that's fair and that didn't work out at all

1:04:00Just like I was like yeah, but that was another reason I was for the chain split Because I was like yo chain split chain split everybody would draw your coins from coin base chain split chain split Let's do this maybe attention nobody paid any attention Yeah But um yeah I guess I I I respect a lot of the monetary maximalists and the a lot of people who I am a monetary maximalist no, I mean I obviously obviously yes me too um, but The a lot of that community and even their conviction to to go with us all for um Despite my disagreement over it being the best path um but I want the monetary maximalist to stay on it out of pure greed and selfishness I want the monetary maximalist to stay on bitcoin proper um or the dominant chain whatever you found

1:05:00What do you want to call it you know bunch of bit point centers? You're not on real big points like whatever. I mean one thing that the uh, I think the core side was right about was that um Even if bit 110 did succeed um It still would have been a fight to keep spam um away. Oh, yeah Oh, yeah thousand percent So yes, so long as the fees are um the way they are And so like even if you were to get your world of um Kind of mining pool Decentralization or whatever um, I still think it would be hard to be like a monetary maximalist um And have anything be done about it really yeah another major reason why I didn't think this was existential because I didn't I genuinely didn't think it was totally solvable I thought the conversation and the the low risk only net benefit mechanisms

1:06:03For doing something about it all to be a part of the conversation I thought it's perfectly sensible to be like let's get rid of op if And it don't even have anything to do with spam other than the fact that op ifs only quote-unquote positive use case was spam And that there were multiple good reasons to remove it that had nothing to do with spam Which means that the only thing that was being used for I think anybody could say was generally a net negative And that the only things that Only positive the quote-unquote positive things that it would be used for would also be net negatives So it's like why do we have it and I think it's perfectly reasonable to have that conversation whether it's about spam or not That would have been a net positive change But I think most people were so wrapped up into the context A different context around that conversation that it was your censoring and your you don't don't inscriptions or transactions too don't

1:07:07You know And it just it just turned into a mess But for a while there I thought core would would take this move I don't think they will now maybe there's still a chance But I thought after the bit bit 110 failure they would say Okay We hear you you guys want this we're gonna do the like correction to taproot in the right way Not the way that bit 110 did it and um I thought there was a chance they would do that because like they have to have seen The energy there even though I didn't win the soft fork like if you just If you look at something like it would be a smart way to capitalize on it Yeah, like Natalie Brunelles so subscribe or only comments in her YouTube channel with Matt Cratter which were just overwhelmingly for doing something to remove spam

1:08:07I there's no way those were bots and like people that walk into the meetup, you know like in person and rolly 95% of them are for you know doing something to at least try to remove spam And but most of the people either don't run a node or They're they're not like technical enough to update their node and like they have so much writing on their node That they just don't really want to mess with it and like you said they just They didn't feel passionate enough or connected enough to actually update nodes software To actually do this and like you know how you said like the The hard forks in the beginning didn't really matter 2010 and 2013 because Those are just such a small community. Well that that same difference applies now I mean what what how many nodes were there in 2017 8,000? Mm-hmm. I mean and now there's a hundred thousand nodes

1:09:09So you have that same dynamic again where it's like For all the reasons you mentioned I agree with you Bit one 10 situations just like a different animal and it's not really right to compare it to uasf But it's also kind of like comparing Hard for today to hard for in 2010. I mean is this just like you have 10 times the amount of nodes That would need to update and the people that are running those nodes are way less passionate about the project Um, then the people used to be there's way more diverse in their opinions reasons and setups. Yeah And the momentum is always going to be in the direction of no change and When it's this is why it's such a problem that core If you update core you're getting a policy change and and so now you're forcing people To actually make a change in order to support something that they want

1:10:10And and so the momentum's going to be in the direction of node is easier to update than it is I mean, I guess you could say they could just not update you stay on a version of core that's old um but but like Then if you have this added concern about the stability of knots or whatever you might Whatever else you might change to like you we need an alternative Implementation that is not sketchy like you can't have it if it if it breaks Then then everything that is that you know like you know the momentum of no change being the you know the thing Is lost because if you have a sketchy you know competitor Then everybody's safer their money you know money is gonna is the thing that people are most worried about You don't want to say that people can break into you don't want to you know so I mean hell look at this cold card incident the pee only the oh my god Most survival those with the most survival or the highest likelihood of surviving were the people who bought a treasure a ledger and

1:11:16uh, you know hardware wallet for 2013 and a mk never update and never updated never did jack Yes Finally a victory dude marion We just did a show um with brain and quidum hotel and uh um a case and Uh is really good show, but i hold on had a really great analogy of like what it felt like because we were all just kind of like down in the dumps about like Everything that just happened the cold card and all this crap and how we went from basically the mildest bear market to like the worst freaking bear market In vickgoin's history um And uh he had a great analogy where he's like i feel like because he did he dodged the bullet to Because he had Multisick same reason i did i had cold card in every setup practically every single setup of any consequence um, but they were all multisick

1:12:19And uh And he had the same thing and he was like it it feels like You got shot like we got shot and a whole bunch of big winners got shot and we were all standing in a group But i had a bullet professed on who was the shooter I had the bullet professed on and i felt it But i lived and i watched a whole bunch of people that i care about just get shot and the bullet go right through a die like is like We and and we didn't tell people enough that they needed a bullet profess We just you know said that you're in a safe area. Don't worry about it um Or we removed our advice from our website or she's yeah Oh Yeah, if that's now, it's true who shot the gun man that's what i'm interested in like yeah I feel that pain too. I feel sad now too But like if you just feel sad and you're never interested in who shot the gun Do you actually care? I mean like these people trying to say that there's zero chance that cold card was a state

1:13:26Attack it's like you know with the scores against it is not zero like But i feel like you like the nat natally brunel like odel crowd is just like You know the whole austin Nashville like that whole thing is just oh just feel bad. Oh that to what a terrible thing what what a bad mistake Like i never get any sense from that crowd of Number one suspect state attack nvk was involved and never hear that at all from that crowd And that just bothers me because it's just like you guys know who this war is against right Mm-hmm anyway that i won't go i went out that rabbit hole last show i won't do it this show Yeah, we dug into it quite a bit and went back and forth because we did the we did the same thing that We did on the last round table was the Is it a state actor? I've felt in how dare nvk But i feel sorry it's hard to build things. It's like we we went back and forth in the whole ct

1:14:30Situation and all this shit, you know Um, hold on had a good point is that he had done explicit dealings with nvk for a long time and in his personal experience with him He was always he always made decisions on principle for like the idea of sovereignty liberty like Open everything and all that stuff with the exception of open Source available in open source i guess you can say um on cold card but uh with the whole ct o stuff i I wonder you know what do you do what do you do if uh Whether or not this is true i'm still not Hundreds i want to see more i want to see more i want to see who has the coins and what's you know It's just try to find as many people as we can involved in this Um one of the theories i had on why the ct o would have done what he did with the fake account Is a little it makes a little less sense um but i'll in sight in uh

1:15:34Light of some new evidence related to that But regardless it could have been an error it could have just been bloated and convoluted code um and And you know it's written in python and you know all this stuff and one of the things i've all is that the ct o wasn't actually trying to hide from Like all this stuff with the switch account um from like the community and everything all our team might have been hiding from decisions with in vk and what Coenkite and cold card owns Versus what was oh we pulled it from this other thing and so you know because in vk was very opinionated about those things And maybe he was just trying to separate that But some of the things make me think it doesn't line up as well as it's not a good as good an excuse as i thought Um but regardless if you Put had so many infiltrate a company or a team

1:16:35How would you know Yeah, that's what i'm saying like have you guys watched that video that i sent you about the the The israeli Pagers the ten-year attack us supply chain attack of the pages I mean did did you read this note in files Like the way that the high levels of government attacks this stuff. It's a million percent Possible it's a million times more sophisticated than then we're looking at it like oh is the name change a big deal like what That that's not who care like the name change the anonymity thing like That's totally irrelevant to the sophistication of what this tap attack would have been if it was from the state You know well and the government the US government has made it explicitly legal to uh coerce people inside of companies And have those people actually work against their own bosses and and it see illegal for them to say anything to the company

1:17:39People inside the company about what they're doing so right and we Know for a fact with the snowden leaks with the snowden leaks and everything that's going on like the The wiki leaks with the vault seven like all these drops Anything that we can learn from this if there is one thing it's that the CIA Not even quietly actively and explicitly puts people in every major in significant company and has agents and and rats and Infiltrators all over the place who just sit quietly waiting and they have trillions of dollars in budget that just kind of disappear And we don't know where it goes and Who's getting paid and how many how many salaries is that How many salaries is that I bet it's more than one per company that exists Yeah easily Unfortunately for people in the In minority communities, let's say there is a high tendency to use people that are

1:18:44trans or have any sort of weird sexual orientation or otherwise because they have Weird internet histories or secrets or things that they don't want to hold and they and they're insecure people generally So they seek those people out to manipulate them And and I mean, you know in a lot of cases if you're trans It's already a signal that you've been highly manipulated by the propaganda campaigns that have been You know Prop that have been put out on the internet anyway, so Yeah, I think there are already flags about Core and other play other things that there that there may be compromised people there Just from a like standback Like big picture idea about insecurity and stuff is the people who need constant external validation to who they are what they are Like there's the whole idea of claiming you have to use my pronouns and it doesn't matter who or what you are in that context

1:19:45that somebody else is speaking Is what determines whether you like this all I did they don't even let us exist is insane because you're saying that all validation of who and what you are is external that other people control it and people who are deeply insecure Need they covet power like nothing because they feel they have none of it um, and so when someone offers them power They they are some of the most likely to abuse it Because they think everyone is abusing power against them because they constantly hand it over to people Like all this like oh, I'm offended is a perfect example of it You know being offended by the inward just means that somebody else can send you into a tirade and destroy your mental stability because they use a word Like that's not that's not power that you can be super offended that somebody else used a word that's weakness That means that they're you're allowing you're projecting a weakness that says someone else can control my state of mind

1:20:49The CIA knows this very very well. They this is like one of their most important tools is find the insecure Give them a little bit of power and dangle You know like take advantage of where they think They are weak and turn into an apparent strength to turn into what they think it is strength So they are they they remain weak and they can be controlled very clearly and with obvious strings Doug stand-hope has that great bit he's like when you come out of that pink ugly hole You're just this little ball of weakness and some of your parents. They're just like You're not weak enough Whenever someone Whenever someone says this particular word you should just recoil and be hurt and be a bit like we need to make you weaker and Otherwise what someone called you a con you just be like oh no my name's Jessica. I'm sorry I must have faced it looks like other people Yeah, like the perfect example is it like I welcome anybody's listen this call me a call me a woman

1:21:55I will not lose a wink of sleep Like I will not like miss miss pronoun miss a misgender me So the problem is the problem is there is a line there is a line between Between harassment and sure harassment is a different thing than simply But listen I've had converse it's a blurry line because I've had conversations with people that will say Oh, you don't care if I call you a pedophile and it's like Okay, this is very different. It's a very different thing But they equate not being called what are what they want to be called with calling you a pedophile like it's like Yeah, that's a modern daily That's a modern daily if you ever heard it like no, what's that that's the argumentation thing You you loudly proclaim a absurd Insane argument over and over and over again and then when you get challenged on it because you can't actually defend it you fall back to a very sensible claim like in abortion or whatever it's that you know, there should never like my body my choice babies aren't a thing

1:23:02You know, it's just a clump of cells. What if somebody doesn't matter yeah And then and then when you say it's like so you're saying that like at 28 weeks when there's a full grown baby like you can just destroy it or whatever So what if somebody gets right? Well, what if the mother's gonna die? It's like well, yeah, but that's point 1 percent of point 1 percent you're talking about you're saying we're gonna change this crazy insane thing And then you're falling back to the one point sent the point 1 percent of gray area that is actually a defensible thing to talk about um or Hard to determine one way or the other what the right path is Being called a pedophile and publicly stating somebody the pedophile um is uh Is a perfect example because and then saying that you know you have a dick and balls because you have a dick and balls um, so like it's like you're just claiming its harassment because you don't like it, but it's not it It's factually accurate You're just saying that you don't want it to be factually accurate because you're not okay with what the universe gave you and you want

1:24:03Something else to be true Um, but you know, I'm not a cat because I want to be one And it doesn't make me powerful to be like I'm a cat and there's nothing you can say about it And if you call me a dog I'm gonna punch you in the face It's like who actually I count a few people actually would care um, but like you tell me I have to say something a certain way or I have Refer to you a certain way and then I'm evil if I don't man You just make me you just make me want to do you just make me want to piss you off Yeah, I'm like you're telling you're what you're telling people is hey, I have this button I have a blood You want to push it. It's gonna make me really angry. Yeah, you ever button everybody. Yeah, I don't I'm a little touch of red button Don't press the red button like this One of my favorite stories I don't even remember where it where who said it um, but they were talking about why

1:25:03Green goes why the people the expats that have come to Mexico and central central in South America are so Generally like there are places where you know people are still not accepted, but generally It's it has become weirdly a term of endearmate because it was an insult and white people couldn't just be bothered just couldn't be bothered to be insulted They were just like yeah, yeah, Gringo Gringo's a cool word If somebody's calling you a fuck face and you're like yeah, yeah, fuck face and and you have to explain to them No, no, no, you're supposed to be insulted it like it already failed I all the powers gone and and then it becomes funny, right? Because you realized that you and all your friends had to call this guy Gringo He's totally fun with it And then it just becomes Everybody has nothing but positive associations with it. So it literally becomes it you take all of the power out of the insult

1:26:04By just being like yeah sure whatever. Yeah, I mean that was that's been my only strategy for most of my life And I learned that in middle school like I remember like Skylar like our good friend Skylar used to Give me mad hell about having big ears Which looked way more extreme when I was when I was a little like in middle school all out people picking on me so bad about it They were pretty big when I was little because my head was much more And they were the same size and And he used to give me shit about it robot And I remember like I have like Bergbaum crying like most of science about like how much people would pick on me about it and I And at some point I just kind of realized I think it was because Jeff was my older brother and he was a total ass hat most of the time And so I had to learn how to you know put up my defenses Um, and one thing Jeff that you would do when we were little that drove me mad at like absolute mad as hell is that you would just kind of have like this

1:27:06Com especially when we were like playing and we were playing in like this fake when you were we were pretending And you would just be like No, this is no, it's not I won I shot you Or whatever and I'd be like no you didn't I you I clearly came out and I shot you and you would just gaslight me To to be like no, you didn't you totally lost you totally lost I I killed you three times before you even the hopped out behind your thing and And it infuriated me beyond belief But like some part of my subconscious which I later put into logic and made sense of was just that confidence of definition When when we talk about like defining or accepting something confidence is the whole game Right the stronger frame wins the stronger frame wins. That's a great way to put it And I started when Skylar would come up and be like um

1:28:06It'd be like how many how many channels you get on those dishes and I would be like bitch I get porn like I get free porn like you know like I would I would basically just Push it harder. I would I started to come up with my own Insults and I just kind of like owned it that like I was the coolest person with big ears And ever since then I had slowly started taking that as my strategy and it was funny like Like when you think about like the the black community and the inward is that they started to do that Like that was like a thing and like they owned it That's a really cool like self empowering thing is it like this is our word now like you know like Inward please, you know like like they just and you just send wrap songs and all this stuff But then something about and I I don't With whole mk ultra and all this stuff. I can't help but wonder if the no you still have to be really really offended if white people say it

1:29:11If it wasn't important for government to keep that thread alive you know to politically manipulate people Because if if it was just owned and nobody cared I think I think it would be a vastly more Empowering and record like it would have been the perfect strategy. That's what Yankee was right is During the during the war or whatever they were like Yankee was an insult and then there's like Yankee dude Bitch I am a Yankee I'm a kick your ass, you know like it just they they owned it and turned it around and it they got to control what it was and Like that's well big That's the strongest right next one. Oh, Max. Oh, so many cases this so many kids you could just go on and on and on We got all episode of just talking about all the ways in which you turn an insult or a Supposed slight into something that makes you powerful and that you own Instead of your quote unquote offender

1:30:11but Would you see that Canada's at war with the US now that that's gonna go well um It looked seriously like the prime minister of Canada said we're at war the Trump has said they're you know, it's gonna rename it to lake Ontario is not lake America um Because because that makes sense Trump is something else They're threatening to like cut some sort of I don't know I don't know if like oil sales power out of their cutting and they're cutting all sorts of stuff They're recommending literally the the the leader governor whatever of British Columbia just told people not to buy things from the US and not to travel to the US if You could avoid it. Mm-hmm. And so We're like we're like now the only place that My wife can is is gonna have citizenship outside of Iran

1:31:14May end up being A in the being the war with Iran is over you finally get it's like Canadians I mean the thing is that the the upside is that somebody was pointing out that the prime minister of Canada has like 90% of his financial life Based in the US like a bunch of his investments and everything so hopefully that means this is not a serious fight But I don't know I imagine is probably just probably ridiculous. Yeah So Steve I want to hear about your thing before we we're already like way into this um Coinbase joke. Coinbase thing Coinbase Oh, yeah, tell me about this. So um yeah, I think I might have one issue that like Most people might unite around um and this kind of like divisionary climate um so um This is gonna take a little bit of just kind of set up because if I just say what it is everyone's just gonna reject it

1:32:19And I did bad explaining this once um So I think one of the big elephants in the room of the whole Bitcoin Movement is does coinbase have have the coins they have Would you guys agree that's like one of if not? So serious on with like minor Decentralization is like does coinbase have the coins right um and We're just kind of like well, you know this cold card incident happened and It seems like people are you know not self-custodying a lot anymore and It are the are the ETFs really going to challenge the custody Uh, are there gonna be bank runs? We're we're just like How how is coin but whether coinbase has the coins are not ever going to be challenged and I think about this daily um and I had a small glimmer of hope okay, so

1:33:19Uh Take this in the context of this small glimmer of hope i'm not saying it's a solution, but it might be a path And this involves Some shitty things like a theorem okay So those are two like hard to swallow bills immediately, but Here's the idea so coinbase last year announced a defy token Called CB BTC Right, so this is one of those be I know right? That's why I had to preface this okay Um with the what it's going towards and like how it might be solution um So CB BTC is one of those stupid wrapped Bitcoin things That they transmit on tron and Solana and a theorem or whatever interestingly though You can run your from your computer and scan those blockchains

1:34:23And you can see how much CB BTC exists on on that network A Every coinbase customer Has the ability to download the app on their phone The base app And withdraw their Bitcoin From Coinbase as CB BTC On their phone So you don't have a Bitcoin balance on Coinbase anymore you have CB BTC on your phone Now here's the key part Coinbase was pressured last year That they did not actually have that CB BTC was imaginary Or whatever coinbase's reaction to that was No, it's not here are the Bitcoin addresses For the CB BTC wrapped Bitcoin token

1:35:24So coinbase If you hold Bitcoin on Coinbase It's paper right They don't even try to publish any addresses Saying that we hear is the collection of addresses that correspond to our customers Bitcoin For their CB BTC token They have a public website That lists Bitcoin addresses That contain the full balance of all their CB BTC Bitcoin token Not one for one like you can't say like freaking Here's my here's my CB BTC on my phone Where's my address? Yes, I sound like you're stuttering Just say CB BTC CB BTC CB BTC Yeah, we needed that thing for this Okay, the CB coin The Coinbase wrapped Bitcoin Okay, Coinbase is wrapped Bitcoin But they published those addresses It's on a Coinbase.com address

1:36:24It says proof of reserves And it's a proof of reserves Not for Coinbase's Bitcoin But for Coinbase's wrapped Bitcoin token And all of their All of these token movements are verifiable on the Ethereum blockchain Or Ethereum Tron, whatever So this glimmer of hope is like if you think of proof of keys Right We have this kind of like crazy idea Or you just have this crazy idea that like Once a year on January 3rd Everyone would withdraw their Bitcoin to their Wallet it would force the coin The Exchange is the sort of admit Whether they have the coins or not, right But that's never going to happen Because like nobody has You know 1% of Coinbase customers have a wall to withdraw to Right

1:37:26But this is in another mechanism That is much easier And much simpler And if like We can have this kind of Growing movement of people being like I don't expect people with a million dollars on Coinbase To withdraw it to their base app But like the plebs with like A thousand like 10,000 dollars on Coinbase If they simply withdraw that to their Their app on their phone as wrapped Bitcoin Coinbase is essentially forced To show a Bitcoin address To reflect That you have that on your phone now It's kind of like a modified like proof of keys kind of thing And I'm only saying this because I know this is a Weird sketchy non-hopeful plan It's the only it's the only thing I've thought of That put that gives any direction to the idea

1:38:27Of maybe helping You know Solve the problem of Coinbase never revealing their coins I mean if everybody did this If everybody with Bitcoin on Coinbase did this Simply withdraw to their phone as wrapped Bitcoin Coinbase would have to reveal the addresses for every coins that they have I'm behind this I'm behind this plan 100% I like like that's not I know that's not going to happen But that is the true fact Because Bitcoin showed up as wrap Bitcoin on your phone That means that they had to put that transaction on the Ethereum Or Tron network as wrapped Bitcoin All those transactions can be verified by by everyone So we can see how much Bitcoin they've put And then so we know how much wrapped Bitcoin they've put out there And then on their website They are forced to show Bitcoin addresses Matching how much wrapped Bitcoin they've put out there So Does that finally all make sense now guy?

1:39:28I know I explained it terribly before It would provide a capacity to an internal bank run Going back to the idea of nodes And Withdrawals and the power and what the whole idea of Bitcoin is Is that the whole reason Bitcoin might actually provide some sort of check on this whole thing Is The exact same way bank runs did All right, yeah, we got to have bank runs on Coinbase Bank runs on a bank are exactly what kept banks honest Honest It is what forced them to be responsible And Enforced a sense of fraud is not going to survive in this space And so many people will tell me that like no central banking is necessary Look how few bank runs we've had Yeah And look how much fraud we have

1:40:30Like bank runs are not the thing to solve Bank runs are the solution to the problem you moron Like a sound money is pointless if you don't have bank runs By who cares that money is sound yeah Who cares that gold is sound Gold being sound doesn't mean anything because there's no bank runs because you can't because you can't bank run it You can't you can't bank runs central bank Of the gold And there's going to be a collection there's going to be centralized custodian entities of any sound money No matter what there's no way you can stop that But so the only fight to keep it relevant is to have exchange runs and and bank runs So can we start should we start like a bit on polymarket of whether or not Coinbase has the coins? Is that a thing yet? No because polymarket would need a way to answer that and the only solution to answer that is my solution And nobody like how is there going to be an outcome? There's never going to be an outcome No one's going to force them except for my way

1:41:32Does there have to be does there have to be a specific end date to make a bet? Yeah, it's got to be an outcome you have to have a well, I mean, I know it like so there will be an outcome one day Oh, no, there's got to be a date. Yeah, yeah, okay, so that's to be a clear. I guess that makes sense. Yeah, it's have a clear time frame That's How what can you make a bet like because if you couldn't create come up with a bet they would pressure Somehow create pressure for Coinbase like there's actually a financial There's actually a financial incentive for them to prove one way or the other you know Well, you can just say will Coinbase offer proof of reserves for all of their coins with Bitcoin addresses by December 31st you could make that bet No Haha Coinbase is going to be like how how many billions are on this bet? Yeah, the odds if the odds are really bad Yeah, no, that's actually hey that might actually work like that's that's something but they're like not even a billion Like they don't even notice it

1:42:36Oh man Well, um, I think we're kind of at the uh Uh, at the end of this year. Yeah I will say there was one thing I kind of wanted to get to With Jeff said about like the momentum is to not change Bitcoin And that's why it's hard to like you know gather anybody for any kind of user activated software or anything like that Um, I agree with that but like not changing Bitcoin is very complicated because Technically you can say that taproot wasn't a change to Bitcoin um And like right right now for example uh Core is mains pushes for the great consensus cleanup Which is a bit 54 And from what it looks like the way that they're going to activate this Is just going to be completely invisibly Um, they're reaching out to

1:43:38mining pull operators and trying to get the mining pull operators to buy in To begin with so that they can do this the soft fork with essentially nobody even noticing Um, so like soft forks that add features or whatever are weirdly in your camp of like not changing Bitcoin Right um, so it's like it's kind of complicated like that and Unfortunately, I think we are in the dynamic now where we're kind of reliant upon this relationship between core And the miners and maybe exchanges really like If core wants to push a feature like let's say core wants to enable a transaction type which would be videos for citria um Advertisements Okay Like you mean like on the chain Yeah, yeah Mega by witness inscription that's video advertising for citria they can do this with a soft fork

1:44:44Just by getting miners to to to agree to it In a bizarre use of language It would be technically considered a restriction Of the of the rules and that's why it can be done with the soft fork um Because Like if you talk to the super devs like Luke and all the all the super core devs They'll say that taproot was a restriction Of the rule set And that's why it could be done with a soft fork even Matt Hill from start nine Um, went on this thing about how all soft forks are restrictions and they're technically right The weird thing is is that like if you add a new transaction type To bitcoin and you do that with a soft fork That can be and the textbook definition carved out as a restriction

1:45:45Because to old nodes there's this massive anyone can spend thing which is infinite And technically you're you're carving out that anyone can spend and to a slightly smaller set of infinite To By by making a new transaction type that does this um And so Right you're sort of creating uh, it's almost like you're Creating an invalidation of an original transaction to create a whole different to signal a whole different thing That's mm-hmm like the old nodes don't even see Exactly yeah Because there's there's all this stuff that old nodes don't even see You can create this new transaction type and soft fork Which it has totally crazy features Right And you can say that that's not changing bitcoin and so I don't know it's just it's more complicated than just um Nodes will stand up and fight against any major change because

1:46:48They can do major changes that are this is what i think not so we're or some other competing client that is Very conservative and very stable, but that offers filters and options and and kind of counters everything course doing is super duper important um and and and i think just like slow and easy you know like being patient and allowing giving people I would assume it would take years to you know Give people the time to adopt these things the time to get on board with The conservative approach to bitcoin or whatever like you know if you create a conservative alternative client And your goal is to attract people that haven't updated their core client in like Five years Then you should expect that it might take five years for them to adopt your client, you know what i mean like so um So like i think it's a naturally painfully slow

1:47:52process I set up a not-snowed but then my no got like i've been moving around and so i'm not running any of the things that i would like to be doing right now and My intention is that in the future sometime i'm going to be you know Running a not-snow that i can set the filters i'm going to be mining on data. I'm going to be doing all these things But right now like i don't know how long it's going to be before i'm In that situation again, you know like i'm not i'm not home. I'm not i'm going to be you know Driving across the country or whatever in a monster so So like like when that's going to happen i have no idea like and so This is just an intention. I have that is again potentially years out. I you know, I don't know like I know where i want to be i know that i don't you know like i've also got cold storage set ups that I'm Would like to do differently or whatever you know i've got i've got a multi-sig arrangement that i need to change

1:48:52We've got whatever but all these things are like i know i'm safe in what i've got right this second I'm just you know, it's not like an emergency and so it's very like Having the time and space to change these things is is kind of a A critical thing like you don't you don't just move you know Lots of money tomorrow, you know for no reason you know you you kind of Want everything to be right everything you know what it's slow and deliberate or it should right yeah And and it's the same thing if especially if you're running a business or anything else like you need you know You need a setup that just works you can't have downtime I will say too with just kind of like that idea um is that one of the benefits of like Staying and pushing towards minor and client decentralization or alternatives Like bug block template and then client alternatives

1:49:53is that every single time Like something is contentious with kind of like the status quo group or the status quo maintainers or whatever it is like the The resistance gets larger and more important You know like this whole debacle around op return Has made more of a push towards alternative clients and conversations around needing Resistance I guess against one group just kind of making decisions and dismissing everybody else's input Then I've seen in Bitcoin in a long time um like there's multiple People and or groups talking about creating a new client geared toward a different thing samson mal and the their group um The production ready or whatever it is just talking about creating a client john attack um, I think you would be a great Candidate for put any seems

1:50:54Invested and and motivated to do the exact same sort of thing and was asking advice on you know Would you support this would you be interested in what should I do and how should I do it multiple people you and said You should keep the knots client running and you should just take knots and extend it and put it into your own That was you yeah, but that's a great great example though. I think that's a wonderful push and the thing is is if if we had 2% of the network or 10% of the nodes or whatever and then something happens again And you know you stay you stay in the game and you don't go all in and you don't you know throw everything in on one hand uh They put their foot in their mouth again or something again Looks like a total dismissal you catch more people next time You know like like we saw a big bump in all of this right because of this last debacle What if next time it's it's over to merge you know what if next time it's a contentiousness about

1:51:56quantum Like whoever is the dominant alternative is going to be the best hedge we have against Taking a rushed or stupid approach. Maybe it's the great consensus cleanup and there's disagreement over Some of the changes in what those consequences might be like I think you have to wait for the the quote unquote establishment so push things aggressively and Because every single thing and every single upgrade is going to have some degree of pushback and That I think creates natural resistance um, but you know Whatever I still think I still think the trajectory is actually pretty good um because of a lot of what's going on Noester was created in response to censorship on twitter and other social media and and it saw its greatest periods of growth During the worst of the censorship, you know, and also kind of declined when Elon took over and just kind of like

1:52:59stamped out a bunch of What people were complaining about or like frustrated with this is the risk if core if core is starting to make changes and trying to do it covertly and quietly then it's sort of the similar to You know if if twitter and facebook and all these other things can Use algorithms and quietly censor and blacklist people without them even realizing how much they're being censored or blacklisted Then you have much less like Obvious reasons to drive people to alternatives. So so if if core is doing this, you know Like we're just gonna quietly move it in the direction we want then you don't have these contentious like things where people are You know bothered by what's happening nobody even pays attention to it. So we need people that are in Bitcoin that are paying attention to what the hell they're doing and Making it known when they're doing something that's undesirable and making noise about it so that there's reason to adopt

1:54:02Nots or whatever else Mm-hmm I'd say I agree with with you guys but but I also have the sense in which I'm thinking about that same thing On a different layer So I agree with you it is we need to have more competing clients and more kind of Difficult conversations and a group to kind of fight against core within like the mothership here but I'm also kind of like rethinking my idea of being like a single coin maxi so hard if like maybe that was An attack vector like um I like now that there's going to be more hard forks because Now we have not just competing it's kind of like um If you're the state of North Carolina, right Yeah, it's good to have like competing camps and infections in the government of North Carolina for making better decisions overall

1:55:06It's also good to have the state of Virginia Yeah, you know, it's also good to have people leaving the state and moving to a different state as a Check on that state, you know So like I have actually completely agree with you. Yeah, it's not it's not black and white either way Um, and I actually said this way back in 2017 was that You know despite the fact that I disagreed and thought Like this wasn't the right path and didn't believe like thought big blocks were not the way to go I was actually really happy with the fork because I recognize that I don't know You know like um, um, it's experiment. It's an experiment. It is an experiment exactly Um, and that's why I think Bitcoin over all wins. It's not because it's a single chain It said it has the ability to software can hard fork and like all that stuff. I said about the basement like

1:56:08That's part of the magic of it and I mean yeah, maybe like okay. I'll grant you guys if a Luke would have stayed the course Would have made a longer plan would have gathered more momentum before he You know tried to propose something as serious as a software like that. Maybe that'll work out better I'll grant you guys that maybe that was Would have been a better path, but that just wasn't going to happen with how Luke was feeling about his position in the space Um, but and now that he's like forked off, you know, I'm like I go back to what I used to tell my meetup a long time ago where I was like guys I'm not a fan of Bitcoin I'm a fan of the strongest most decentralized cryptocurrency and I don't care what the name of that cryptocurrency is Because this is about fighting fiat. I mean, I don't I don't care if it's even cryptocurrency It's like a magic technology appeared tomorrow and wasn't cryptocurrency and had a better chance of killing fiat I'd be on that ship immediately

1:57:09um, so like You know, it's kind of it's a pandora's box. It's the Medusa that like splits its heads when it needs to and like Terminator and like you know, it goes into a million different like liquid metal stuff and then like recombines and stuff um, I don't know I say like that. I mean, I'm with you guy. Yeah, it's overall good um, there's a possibility and A very non-zero possibility and it'll be really interesting and in fact it may very well be inevitable at some point in Bitcoin's future that capacity to hard fork um May actually be what saves it from some disaster yeah, and that the hard fork itself A a contentious and very violent fork actually becomes the dominant chain in in some way or the change with the least inertia right the the one that is genuinely the change

1:58:11Is actually the one that succeeds or wins and it may purely be because they split in a very Close Way, you know like maybe even as a minority, you know 40 60 type thing When there is a huge contentiousness or a basic very likely a political Maybe 20 split it could be a huge political battle, but the minority simply survives out of the correct path, you know like the other one simply succumbs to whatever the vulnerability or the risk was So I would even wager that it's more likely that it would be a small minority 10 or 20 percent then forked off And then that surviving after 10 or 20 years To become the dominant thing that may be what the next What the next reserve currency shift looks like after post Bitcoin world, you know Yeah, if you if you look at how things tend to happen, you know, Ron Paul Bitcoins in general were laughed at for how many years before you know is like oh, okay, this thing's for real

1:59:19Ron Paul was you know being made fun of on taut daily talk on day daytime talk shows in the 80s for his views and There is nobody that has more uh, you know like in the political World has has any more respect and followers that are more hardcore than Ron Paul has, you know And so it just takes time How many big winners will still say today? I'm a Ron Paul supporter, you know Did I went back? I watched that video last week the exact one you're talking about the 80s donahue thing and yeah His congress speeches and I was like man, I I feel so guilty of being one of those guys I just dismissed him for being a freak now everything I watch from him is so right It's amazing amazing how sensible Like and and clear he could explain things to he just had a way he was great It's weird man. It's weird because when I was learning a lot of this stuff Ron Paul did not do it for me

2:00:25No, I had to learn it through Milton Friedman and Thomas South Um and people that were very like Thomas South and Milton Friedman are much much better speakers of Ron Paul Ron Paul always sounds kind of bumbly He's right when he he's right and his message is actually fairly clear But he kind of bumbles around about it like he's not he's not as easy to listen to And this was the same thing I had a had a friend that would always try to get me to listen to Rothbard And I did not have any respect for Rothbard until after I understood everything else You know that then Rothbard was very hard to listen to Um, he's very nasally, you know very like it just he was as much more difficult to To hear There's some amount of stuff like it's painful to hear things that you don't already agree with And so there's an amount of like Can you handle the pain of this thing you don't already agree with physically? We annoying thing in this guy's voice and yeah, yeah, like there's multiple factors and

2:01:29Um, and the thing is it is different for everybody too like there's some people that might not like listening to you know Like I mean, I would say somebody with like a voice like Thomas South is easier to listen to just in general But but there it is really different for different people see you like I'm trying to explain to people that you need stepping stones You need people that are closer to wherever a person is to help them Get there because you can't go you cannot go from Maga supporter to Rothbard in one one go. I don't think that's a thing, you know I had to go through Bitcoin to get the Ron ball. Yeah, I would never have got there this one from Bitcoin Yeah, um well That's a good note to end this on I think I gotta wrap up some things to do thank you guys for joining us wrap Wrap Bitcoin on Coinbase wrap Bitcoin on Coinbase That's the way. Yeah, that's the way hey all coin bases paper Wrap Bitcoin is better paper than coin base paper

2:02:3121 and six bucks. It's better. It's better paper. It's better paper. Oh God I'm still all for uh with your all day. What's what is it called proof of coins day? What's do we call it a first piece day? Proof of keys day and that one clues wrapped Bitcoin just withdraw to your base Bitcoin. That's fine We can we can include that in there. All right guys Uh, all right guys you guys later later That will wrap us up a farewell to mechanic on the roundtable and uh If you guys actually have any suggestions to the semi-permanent fourth person that we want on the show I would love to actually take suggestions. I'll be reaching out to a number of people just to see who's interested And uh, I want to keep this show fun and I want to keep talking about all this stuff and covering any issues or questions

2:03:33You guys have and I wanted to be a good group that has experience that You know is willing to speak their mind even one you know, maybe it cost them a lot and I always have appreciated mechanic and is Candidness so let me know what you guys think do not forget if you get older version of the bit box Do not forget to get the uh dick sense Upgrade that sounds the dick sense dick sense Bitbox guys gonna be mad at that one um Bitbox put it in your butt get the dick sense up Anyway, get the get the update to the firmware uh to cover that usb bug There's also a much less severe but other little uh side bug That we will be covering in the issue or the guys take where I go over a lot of the red teaming uh in addition to the hacks from treasure and ledger Also, these are not intrappea bug hacks like cold card nothing to worry about there

2:04:36These are like email hacks and You know software hacks all of these sorts of things a lot of layers on top of a lot of these things that are getting hit um Actually the list is quite long of everything there is to go to which is partially very reassuring But also kind of scary because there's core lightning there's I think there was an l and d one there's btc server like we have a lot to go through so that's why we're dedicating an episode to it So stay tuned to that do not forget to subscribe to the guys take youtube channel uh that's g-u-y-s-t-a-k-e And this is our newer channel which we're trying to get off the ground And still bootstrapping so any subscription and then also this is a huge and incredibly easy way To help out the show and you obviously you get more of our wonderful content Which How could you not want that and uh You could do it right now and then of course share it out with everybody you know

2:05:38I'm following me on twitter as well as simple Steve or Steve uses word. Yeah simple Steve and Jeff and all the crew and I will catch you guys on the next episode This is bitcoin audible. I am guys one and that is our two sets You