Quantum Theology: Where Science Meets the Soul

0:00So today, I am with some of the contributors to quantum theology, which is a collection of a lot of thoughts about quantum theology, basically. And I am here with three of the contributors. Can you guys just introduce yourself like briefly for people so they can kind of know who, who's who and who they're listening to? All right, well, I'll jump in. My name is Keith Giles. I'm the co-owner of choir publishing who published this volume. And I also edited the project as well as wrote the forward to it. And I'm the one that kind of put it out there, invited people to contribute. And you know, very excited about all the different contributors who sent in their chapters. And, yeah, so that's yeah, that's what I did. After you, Mary.

1:00And I'm married through here. I'm married through you and I'm a registered nurse by training. And I got into the healing field of massage therapy, sports medicine, and then homeopathy. I, Keith also published my other book out of the blue, which was my experience of a spontaneous spiritual awakening with Jesus. And then I went on to have other experiences of this quantum field and the photonic packets of light that I saw. And while I was working at MIT. And so. And it just evolved from there. So and into consciousness based medicine. And where we're headed with our divinity awakening within humanity behind the egoic understandings. I'm Matt Cannon and I'm a pastor and a spiritual director and a storyteller of many kinds. And in many ways, I've just enjoyed learning from all the other really interesting people in this process.

2:09So I'm really excited to be a part of this conversation today and continue to learn as I share a little bit about where I'm coming from from this perspective. Yeah, it's all fascinating to me. So I'm excited to hear from you guys as well. So the, the gist of this collection, especially is kind of is connecting quantum physics and consciousness and spirituality. So what, what was the moment that kind of convinced one or all of you that you were like, I think all of these are interconnected and we should talk about it. Well, I'll tell you where it came in for me. I was, I had just finished writing this seven part book series kind of deconstructing my, my own personal, you know, conservative evangelical Christianity. And as I was coming out of that process, I was kind of like sort of like, well, now what, you know, I know what I don't believe.

3:13But what happens now, you know, what happens next and do that process, I really became convinced that it's that theology is really sort of, you know, it's the study of God. That's what the word means, you know. And I realized that so much of my experience with theology didn't make any sense, right? Like if, if you begin with the idea that God is a being beyond all human comprehension, then it doesn't make any sense for the next thing you say to be, now let me tell you all about it. Which is what theology is trying to do. It's trying to explain God, right? So I thought, look, you know, I think I think from me personally, it's really the answer is more about mystery. It's leaning into the mystery of the divine. And so as the more I did that, that, that led me to start studying mystics of other faiths. People like Rumi and even Buddha and Black Al, who was a Native American Shama and some others. And then I also started looking into quantum physics.

4:14And, and that's really where it broke open for me was starting to notice the overlap between some of the exact same things that mystics have been saying for really thousands of years. And quantum physics now is validating some of those same ideas that ultimately, you know, it comes down to consciousness. And, and so yeah, that's that's where it kind of started for me. I'll share my, my experience was I had a spontaneous spiritual awakening during the life crisis back in 1984 when I lost all my retirement funds and I was thrown into a crisis and I was in such a state of mind that I could no longer think anymore in my mind stopped. And I cried out saying, please help me, you know, I am in such a horrible state. And in that moment when my mind stopped divinity entered the field in my living room. And began to speak to me and I realized that this light was Jesus, not Jesus of any confined to any religion, but Jesus as a spiritual master of light.

5:25And then he awakened the Kundalini energy in me. And so all my shockers started spinning inside me. And it released all this, this bliss, this incredible bliss and unfettered love inside me. And he spoke to me seven different topics of forgiveness, judgment, the Bible, weight issues, emotions, disease, aging, and the ego. And as he was doing this, he awakened this energy within me. And, you know, I wasn't anyone I had left the Catholic Church long ago because of the dogma. But I recognized that he was separate from all of that. He had nothing to do with religion. He didn't come here to teach us religion. He came here to remind us that we are that light within. And when he finished teaching me and I was left in this blissful state, I went out to the backyard to get some fresh air, completely transformed to what was going on with me and within humanity.

6:28And I saw these photonic packets of light surrounding everything, the grass, the trees. And my experience of this photonic packets of light was that this was the light that created everything and it was divine in nature. Little did I understand though that those photonic packets of light are the same light within me. It took me time to make that connection and the love and the omniscience in that light that created everything had me burst into tears all over again. And out loud, I said, oh my god, this is, this is heaven on earth, but we've made it into a hell from our egoic existence of separation and fear. And after, after all of that, of course, I was working in research administration, that this is your hospital in Boston. And all I wanted to do is to sit in this incredible bliss of love that I saw everywhere. And I wondered why I was never told about this light within me.

7:31Of course, Jesus did say the kingdom is within, but very few make that inner connection as a living reality of truth that we are the walking quantum field of divine. Nature and then two years later, because I asked for a living teacher to meet a living teacher who really understood and embodied this, I did meet her. And she changed my life forever through another initiation so that when I fully ignited again that Kundalini energy, this time it passed by the egoic state and went into the state of Brahman for the quantum field. And that is everything and everywhere and we literally are the walking quantum field of divine energy. And at that time when that happened to me, I was at a meditation retreat. And as this was always happening inside me. I looked up and over this building, Jesus was rising in a cloud.

8:35And I went, oh my god, these visions are real. And I thought, oh, am I ascending too? And I realized, yes, it's an inner ascension that you make to your divinity once it gets ignited within you. And the words that I heard where here is your divinity, the divinity that awaits all mankind. And it took me a long time to integrate all of this. I ended up getting a job at MIT in the space center working with the top 200 space plasma physicists in the world. And who studied the quantum field. And of course, at that time, I wasn't really making the connection that Brahman and quantum field and divinity and all of this is all one thing. So one thing. Of course, the field of medicine greatly interested me. Of course, I was involved and I haven't involved at all in my life. And then I came upon homeopathic medicine, which I found was the consciousness-based medicine. Of homeopathy, which can cure and prevent disease.

9:39And it was once part of our US medical system. I didn't know that. And I went back to school to study that with a doctor. And so I do classes on homeopathic medicine for people. But mainly the first thing, of course, is to know that you are the walking quantum field, divine nature. And to move beyond the ego structure, I, and when that state opened in me completely, it back in 1988, the top of my head opened up. And I connected with the photonic packets of divine light as a living field of water of light, because it comes in particles and in a flow. And I opened up to this universal consciousness that we truly are. I couldn't hold it though. I couldn't hold it. And I ended up slipping back down. It wasn't my time yet to hold it back into the egoic structure, which relies on the mind and thoughts, built in fear and separation. And from here up, there's no fear. There's just divine consciousness. So when you open like that, the masters are called the fountain heads. That's what they call these spiritual masters of fountain heads, because this is what they're talking about.

10:50And it's within us. And it lives in us as us in this world. And this is the process that humanity is going through now on many different levels through different understandings. But the experience of oneness of consciousness is the same. It, it isn't different. So that was my, that's what happened to me and it all happened very spontaneously. This is quite a journey. That is so many cool moments that you've had. Oh, there's nish. And then I got to experience death while at MIT sitting on the tent upon a bench and the electric engine. A lot happened to me at MIT. So it's all in my book. The Keith, the Keith wisely published. He saw me on the wisely published it. So thank you Keith. Thank you for believing for believing. Yeah, thank you. Because I'm kind of, you know, what kind of the outliers of humanity. But people are listening now as they have their own awakenings. Yes. Yeah, I want, I definitely want to read that one.

12:00So we did just get joined by nish. So just since we're in a podcast form, I had everyone kind of introduce who they are. So people know who they're listening to. So can you kind of introduce yourself briefly? Certainly. Apologies for being late. I managed to get the time change from London to Eastern. So my apologies. Yes, so I'm nish debauch yet. So I'm I'm a writer and a speaker living London. I'm trained as a mathematician work for many years in IT. And then I had a kind of spiritual awakening of a kind and decided I needed to devote my life to writing and speaking. So most of the work that I write about now is to do with human development, integral theory, seeing how different philosophies fit together.

13:02Most of is Christian theology. I'm just trying to see if there's some kind of core teaching behind all of these that would be useful to humanity at the current time and useful to me. Yeah, I did. I think if we realized some of our similarities, especially in religions, we would probably be better off and treat each other a little bit better. I feel that is act. Did you want to talk anything about what kind of brought you thinking about the story? I wanted to bounce off of something that Mary said first while I was listening is how much light comes up in this book and how much people continue to reference light in a variety of different ways. And I don't know, I just that verse from John's kind of prologue about the light was coming into the world, but the world didn't recognize it. This idea of awakening to what is happening, which kind of brings you back to what several, as I said, of being on this kind of journey of exploration, whether that was kind of a post deconstruction of a certain particular type of faith or this, you know,

14:17investigating the mystery of what in the world is happening among us. And so for me, my kind of introduction to this isn't from a scientific point of view or a point of view, it's all through story. And so I was doing some work with spiritual direction and having some conversations about unitive theology and contemplative psychology. And so my entry point into the language of quantum theology was actually through these ideas of non dualism and mystery. And then the last chapter of this book just to give a shout out to some of our other contributors. Is this really wonderful kind of exploration of how this language, these ideas give language to this underpinning that we all seem to be experiencing, which is this awakening to this lack of separation. At a profound level. And if we were to really embrace that lack of separation, how that would then impact how we think morally, ethically, relationally.

15:22And even about ourselves as we integrate our own selves and the different parts of ourselves that we might not like or we might highlight certain things, you know, we all started this conversation by a list of, you know, this is who I am. And I think that's really funny. But, but at the same time, we can't avoid that just like Mary was talking about, we, we, we continued to kind of drop back into those stories that we tell ourselves. But if we're able to see past them long enough to at least hear your story and hear your story, then maybe we can start to see some of that separation as an illusion. You know, lesser, lesser stories that they don't have as much impact and important that they did before. So that's kind of what I'm coming into the space with and what I brought. Pestorially, as I began to kind of sit with what my chapter was going to be and then unpacked it from there. Me when I use Riverside as well. Oh, good. Yeah, you can't change it while you're recording. So I realized it and I was like, okay, I need to wait.

16:25Okay. Awesome. So something I thought was interesting and actually kind of all of you have touched on this a little bit is that there's definitely spirituality to all of this and there's also science to it. And I think a lot of people are used to like thinking those have to be separate. So do any of you kind of want to talk about that that like they don't have to be separate, they actually can kind of communicate with each other even. Yeah, I think you could probably like to that. Yeah, certainly I'll try my best. I mean, I'm my training was in maths and physics originally. So I came to this through science. And then I discovered I actually read a book called the Tao of physics by Fritch of Capra, which suggests that there are similarities between some of the findings of modern physics and some of the Eastern traditions and then later on the Christian traditions. So my view is that human beings have the ability to find and discover reality in many different ways.

17:31In the modern world, we've tended to emphasize the scientific way, the sort of third person objective way. And in some extreme cases, we believe or people believe that's the only valid way of getting knowledge and religion, spirituality is often then just written offers superstitious or blind faith or whatever. But I think if we can broaden our epistemology that's how we find different ways of finding knowledge. And that's just one of several ways in which we can explore reality. And I think spirituality gives us another way of doing that. Maybe more than a third person objective, you more of a first person interior view can we go within and find deeper, deeper truths about reality in the depths of ourselves. That's spirituality that's certainly one of the ways in which spirituality enables us to do that. And I think the inner and the outer reflect each other.

18:32So I don't think science and spirituality are talking about exactly the same thing. I think they mirror each other very well. And that's why we find this deep similarity and parallel in the language that they often use. Well, I'd like to speak to that. You know, when I experienced this total self-realization when I was allowed my energy was allowed to go to this higher realm inside us and this shocker up here where the quantum field or Brahman, the ultimate reality exists and we have it in ourselves which shocked me when I experienced it. And, you know, when I saw those phautonic packets of light from that state surrounding everything. And I understood, you know, when I worked at MIT that this quantum field is the same quantum field that lives in us as us. There is no separation between science. It's just a separation understanding.

19:35Once you experience this quantum field, this divine light that the masters spoke about like Jesus and others in the Hindu tradition, you know, these seers and and and all the books talk about it. And you can write thousands of books about when you have the experience though. That is absolute clarity and for sure because up here lives only only this blissful love of eternity that we are. And down here exist the way we think that we're a body and it's all fear based down here. And down here it's fear based with other and you separate and hates involve which destroys everything. Because it's so powerful but up here there's only this love, there's no fear. And you live in a state of being and knowing rather than thinking from a very small field of egoic existence which keeps you separated and in fear.

20:42And once you have fear, you try to control everything out of that fear. But once you make this leap here, then it's no longer about fear. Then it's about, you know, that you are eternal beings and you can live in this world and create a world based on this experience. And when I discovered homeopathy, this consciousness space system of medicine, that's what it works with. It works with the unconsciousness space level and it's vibrational medicine. And once you can understand that and understand that the quantum field and physics is, there is no separation. It's just the separation of understood to understand it. So once I saw it and experienced it myself, which as you say, Nish, you have to have that experience in you. You're right when you say that it's an inner experience. This is absolutely the truth. And once you experience it, you can't go back. You know, now it's sort of like, uh-oh, you know, and now I have to live in this egoic structure where people have no idea what the heck I'm talking about.

21:51And it does leave you in a sort of a spiritual loneliness because you're talking about it. I was like, what are you in the world? Are you talking about? So Nish, you're right when you say that it is, we are endowed with this. You're absolutely correct. And we, and this is the connection connection that people are beginning to make now, beginning to make strides in this in humanity. And it is ours and it's about reclaiming it and remembering and then experiencing and lit be the living truth of this. Can I say something about that too? Because to me on that question, this perceived separation between science and sort of mysticism or religion or theology. So something I came across in some of my research and stuff was like prior to the quantum physics, which we now have. You know, scientists were working largely from a materialistic point of view. Newtonian physics is very materialistic essentially says the only things that are real like reality itself is based on things we can like particles and things we can see and measure, right.

23:04And the initial pushback from philosophers and theologians and mystics to that assertion that the scientists were making was okay. Then if that's true, then how do you explain human consciousness, right or or not the illusion might say how would you explain the human soul. And scientists had no answer for that from a Newtonian, you know, materialistic framework. But now with the the advancements that are being made in quantum physics as science itself is beginning to shift away from Newtonian physics and into more quantum physics. This is to me the shift. This is what's happening. This is why now these things are bleeding into one another. And I always go back to this quote. I came across there's a very prestigious scientific journal called nature. And Sir James Jean, who was one of the who was a very prominent quantum physicist, wrote an article in in this journal.

24:05And about how this shift is happening with quantum physics and he ended that article by saying I'm paraphrasing, but this is this is as close to an exact quote as I can get. He essentially ended that article by saying we can no longer speak of the universe as a great machine, meaning materialism. He said we must now talk of the universe as a great thought or consciousness. And so that to me is the radical shift. Go back to that question, right, the pushback from from philosophers and theologians to the Newtonian model and challenging scientists to say how then in a material universe do you explain the rise of consciousness and they can't suddenly now what Sir James Jean and other quantum physicists are saying is, oh wait, that was the wrong question all along. The question shouldn't be how does consciousness arise from a materialist universe. It's the other way around how does material arise from consciousness that consciousness seems to be the bedrock of reality and of the universe.

25:11And that to me is the massive shift. And it's actually been really fun in researching some of the stuff. I've listened to a lot of lecturers, TED Talks, interviews from these quantum physicists. And it's funny to me how often as they begin to sort of explain these kinds of things. Almost inevitably they will stop themselves about halfway and say, now I know I sound like a theologian right now, or I'll wait, well I sound like I'm a mystic right now. Like they mix them nervous because they they're picking up on it like now I know this, you know, so that it go, okay, look, I don't want to go there, but they can't help it like the quantum physics is is validating these kinds of ideas. And to me, that's the exciting part of that. I mean, like I agree with this, they're not, they're not saying the exact same things, but there is a lot of overlap, like you were saying there are a lot of echoes there. And that to me is the, that's the exciting thing to me about this book, this quantum theology, but that's why I wanted to publish it. And to get all these different voices from actual quantum physicists and mathematicians and, you know, people with degrees all the way down to just mystics and practitioners and other authors and spiritual advisors and guys.

26:26You know, but to get all these different perspectives on this topic, because it has applications for so many different areas. Well, in the field of medicine, this is why the, the homeopathic medicine was pushed out of the United States, because it's consciousness based medicine. It works with the quantum field and it started to become very popular in the United States and Rockefeller didn't like that because he had, he had the material, you know, based system of medicine, which is synthetic petrochemical drugs, which act on it on a material level, which suppress symptoms versus homeopathic medicine that works on the quantum field to release whatever the stuck energy is in mind thought, which creates disease. And this is in the field, just in the field of medicine alone, the changes that are possible and can happen. And I know as a homeopath for 25 years, I've seen it work and I use it myself, but it's, that's one field that will be transformed incredibly.

27:31And there's others, of course, you know. Yeah, so I'm fortunate that if it's less profitable and it kind of does not exist well in a very capitalist society, but basically. I loved niche, I loved the like being able to think of it in terms of like third person versus first person, I feel like that's like a really practical way that I think a lot of people could kind of understand it and then I feel like Mary and Keith your answers kind of explained what that what that can actually mean as well. I think it's interesting to how the lack of believing in some of this like quantum connectedness is also what creates so much separation in multiple ways, but I think it also keeps like humans separate from each other too. I think feeds into the ego part, so what was, what was it like kind of like learning about that part or like what kind of led you to the like house, house separation kind of keeps us from this too.

28:43Well, we, I'll just go ahead, go ahead, go ahead, I was just going to say that we, we instinctively make meaning. And so our from the very beginning of history we've we've applied meaning and stories to ourselves and indigenous and Eastern cultures obviously have different stories than than some Western cultures and that's that's a very broad statement, it's not ubiquitous, but. This idea that for so long our our meaning making became tribal and insular and it served purposes, but now as we've evolved and as as the the need for new stories continues to expand that's why we're so much of this this. Relearning after unlearning is to find these similar stories of connection to say all right well my banner is not any different than your banner. And so maybe I can put this down and we can learn a way to be together differently niche use the word exploration and that really stood out to me as this idea of like how much more.

29:47How much more evolved and aware would we be if we were exploring one another and we were curious about one another as opposed to. It's interesting in wall building and maintaining the systems that keep us safe or at least that we've been told that keep us safe, but we're also just seeing the violent. Both the violent reaction of those systems in real time, but also from within those systems the i'll use the word violent because it fills that way sometimes the violent deconstruction of those powers and principalities to use Bible language in real time as well. And those things are happening hand in hand and that's kind of where this this work kind of meets in that space of like helping to walk people through to the other side of that that reality, regardless of the words that we might choose to do that word. For me, the very limited nature of feeling separate came to me through spiritual practice, I took up various practices when I was a student.

30:53And one of the traditions in which I did some training is a North Indian tradition called Kashmir shivism and in this we're actually taught that separation or the sense of being separate as human beings from the rest of reality is is not inherently true. It's something we're doing in each moment ourselves and meditation yoga other practices you learn to recognize how you're doing it. And you really become aware moment to moment that you're actually doing what in that tradition they call the self contraction and they use an analogy that reality is like an open hand, but we're always making it into a fist and creating this sense of self. And if we can see through that or relax that in some way, then the wholeness of everything becomes obvious as the prior reality on which we're imposing separation ourselves. So for me, that was what convinced me more than just reading about physics. I actually was able to see how I'm doing it in each moment.

31:57I came to Kashmir shivism too, Nish. I came to Kashmir shivism too, which opened me and the experiences I was given the experiences first and then I came to understand all of that and it just opened the whole world to me. It's beautiful actually. Yeah, just to tack on to that, like if you want to see the fruit of separation, just watch the news, scroll through your Instagram and look at the incredible damage and destruction, the suffering created from the mindset that we are separated by nations, by politics, by gender, you know, by religion. That's we're living it right now and we're living it at a level I thought I would never experience in my lifetime. But in some ways, and in fact, Mary, I want to thank you because you're one of the people that helped me to see this.

32:58When we first published Mary's book, she and I were having a conversation. And throughout the conversation, Mary kept saying, kept referring to this awakening that we're experiencing now. And this great awakening that we're experiencing about our oneness and our connection, she kept speaking of it as if it had already happened. And I finally stopped her and I said, Mary, I mean, you keep talking about it. I mean, I see the need for it. I mean, wow, wouldn't it be great if that would happen. But I mean, as I look around, I don't see the evidence of this great awakening and oneness and connection. No, all of the suffering you're watching right now, and this was like a year ago. So it's even worse now, right? All of the suffering you're seeing right now is evidence of it's sort of like the collective and correct, correct me if I'm wrong, Mary, but it's like the way I understood it. It's like the collective human consciousness is beginning to awaken and realize that this system that we are living in right now is unsustainable.

33:58We as humanity cannot continue to live at this level of belief in the lie of separation because the fruit of it is killing us. And so we are now what that creates is a vacuum where we then begin spiritually, psychologically, to begin saying there must be another way there must be something else. And that's what this, I keep saying that to me, this awareness of our oneness and our connection or shared divinity and our shared humanity, I call it the answer to everything. Because if we as a human species can finally awaken and really get this, this is how you love your neighbor as yourself. This is how you love your enemy. This is how this is the end of poverty. This is the end of genocide. This is the end of prejudice, you know, racism. Because when you see the other, when you look at the other person, you don't see the other, you see yourself reflected and you see God reflected in them, right?

34:59You believe that you can drop a bomb on a school of young girls in Iran. And that doesn't do incredible damage to yourself and to every other human on this planet. Then you don't, you haven't gotten it yet. But the hope is that we're starting to get it. I believe that I now have faith in that, than that awakening, because of that, because I think that is right. I think Mary's right. We're living now through the sort of the birth pains of that awakening and it's very painful and it's very scary. But I do think it's inevitable. I think, virtually, I mean, my awakening happened during a very painful crisis. And this is what people are going through. Usually it takes a painful crisis to crack open that identity with the egoic structure. You know, like some cold cracking open the coconut to release the sweetness inside. And it's usually it happens through suffering that you can't sustain the suffering anymore, which happened to me.

35:59Like my mind could not possibly sustain my suffering. And it stopped when the mind stopped that space between thoughts opened. And that's where consciousness lives. It lives in the space between thoughts. So we're no longer going to be going to be being run by thoughts that build that a fear and separation, but a sense of beingness that has the tremendous power of transformation in our consciousness. So usually it does happen through tremendous crisis. And I've went through it myself so I can understand how difficult it is for people now. And the fear comes from, you know, having to release all of this way of being, but I can tell you once you release it, you will open to the non fear to the fear of beingness, which is beyond fear. And it's within us. And that's what shocked me. My God, it's within humanity. I can't believe this that we're carrying this holy grail in us. And we don't see it.

37:00We don't see it. And it's everywhere, but we don't see it. Yeah. But now as you think it we are waking up to this through this shared crisis that we're all sharing. And it doesn't matter if it's on the other side of the world. It's happening. It's happening to all of us now because we all share in this experience of what's going on. We're not protected from it. We we have to share it as humanity and to awaken it and to hold and sustain what we know is true. That we are one and that that is possible to create a world that's different. Some of what you were saying was reminding me I had seen years ago, someone else's interpretation of like when Jesus says I am the light and the way in the truth. And it and I was I heard someone's for this was years ago. I hadn't thought about it in a while, but he was talking about some people interpret that as Jesus is the only one who has light. He's the only one who's the way he's the only one who knows the way.

38:04Or was he trying to teach us like that we could say it about ourselves as well. So does that play into all of this as well. Yeah, for me, it totally does. Like for me, it's for me. In fact, pretty much the John 14, the gospel of John chapter, well, the whole book really, but is very much about that. But I think it's in John 14 where again, how we've been taught to understand those verses versus how I think there's a better way to understand those verses. The verse where Jesus says to his disciples in that day, meaning not now, but one day, you're going to get this. And here it is. Here's what you're going to get. In other words, you personally are going to have this, this aha moment. Here it is. Yes, I am in the father and you are in me and I am in you. Jesus is basically saying, I had this revelation. I had this awareness. This blew my mind. And you haven't gotten it yet, but you're going to get it one day.

39:05You're going to say to yourself, you're going to look in the mirror and say to yourself, I'm in the father. And you're going to turn to your other person and say, and you're in me and I'm in you. And this is now suddenly, it's totally like, oh, this is why whatever I've done to the least, I've done it to myself or I've done it to Christ, right? Because there is this connection. And I like, yes, I totally agree with that. I don't think it is. It's a shift. It's a subtle, but very powerful and necessary. And by the way, this pattern is all through, I'm working on a book right now on this topic. So that pattern is all through the gospels and even through the writings of Paul believe it or not. We're Paul often uses this pattern of saying something that's true of Christ. And then he says, and it's also true of you, right? So he'll say things like, because Christ has been raised from the dead, you have been raised from the dead. Because Christ has seen it at the right hand of the father. You were seated at the right hand of the father, right? And so he says this kind of stuff all the time. In other words, what's true of Christ is true of you, right? And so I think that's one of the missing things.

40:14And so funny to me is it's embedded right there. It's in the scriptures that Christians have. They just haven't sort of learning, have new eyes, sort of read it and understand it from that direction. You know, Keith, some people say that Jesus actually said the I am is the way. Yes, they left out the word is the great I am that I am I am that I am that and all these books, whether it's the Bible or the upon a shot or the Bhagavad Gita or any of those spiritual books can point to the, it's they can point to the way, but you can't get the experience of it through these books, because you can use words and use them however you want. You have to go beyond it. And once you have the experience, it books can't possibly touch what it's like to experience Brahmin. I mean, I had the experience myself. I could only hold it for 30 minutes. I didn't have the mind that could just, you know, release all and hold it. But once you have that experience, it's far beyond anything that any whether it's Jesus or any of the Hindu spiritual masters who came before him, he wasn't the only one who held this knowledge and information and imparted it.

41:32But, you know, the Catholic religion kind of took him over and used him. He didn't come here to tell you about a religion. He came here to tell you about the light, as you said, within you. And so you can write millions of words about the experience, but once you have the experience, it's way beyond what books can point to. Yes, that's a great part. And when it happened to me, I could not believe that it was within humans. And yet it is. That's the truth. Yeah, it's a great point about the words or the description of something versus the actual experience of the thing. I was reading a theology book a long time ago, and the one thing I remember was he used this analogy about it. I went to a tribe, an uncontacted tribe of people in Papua New Guinea, right? They've never contacted any modern people. And you learn their language and you're sitting around the campfire and you're talking to them. And maybe you just make a comment like, man, I really miss having a good cup of coffee.

42:38And they say, what's coffee? You know, human language, you could do your best to try to sort of explain to them kind of what coffee tastes like. But you will completely fail until you hand them a cup of coffee and drink it. And now you don't need an explanation, right? So if words are incapable of accurately describing what coffee is, it's completely, completely false short. I'm explaining anything like a profound divine connection, right? They say that the mystical experience is ineffable. That's in most traditions say that. And I think also in addition to what Keith is saying, it's also partly because of the way our language is structured. So all of the things that happen in mystical experiences, you realize a oneness between you and the rest of the world, between subjects and objects. But our language is always predicated on that distinction.

43:39So it's very difficult to get across something that transcends that distinction in that structure. One of the things some thinkers, I mean, David Bowen talks about this is we need to also evolve our language structures. So we can also find ways to better speak about something that transcends these kind of dualisms. Yeah, and this is like developing a language of light, the language of light. That's exactly right. Yes, you're absolutely correct. Yeah. So we're developing this language of light. And it sounds like quantum entanglement is a part of what kind of communicates that language of light. I'm not sure if that was any of your guys' chapters, but can you can any of you talk about the quantum entanglement part? My understanding of quantum entanglement is very, very basic, but essentially, if you take an example, if you have two particles, and they are, even if they're traveling away from each other at the speed of light, which means it's impossible for one to send a signal to the other, because you'd have to go faster than speed of light to communicate and we can't.

44:57There's still a connection between the two, something that happens to one affects the other, and it can't be at the manifest level because there's no way they can communicate. So they're entangled in a way that we can't explain with certainly with Newtonian physics. So there has to be, or as likely to be, a deeper order, a deeper order where these things that we think are separated are one, our whole, and that shows up as entanglement in the manifest world. And even in the Christian tradition, I think this is pointed to in a way that probably isn't recognized very much. In the way we describe God as a trinity, it's a multiplicity in unity. You have the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, and they're separate, but they're also one. There's a deeper essence or wholeness that unites them. And when we talk about the body of Christ, we're all members of the body of Christ, we're separate, but we're also one in the body of Christ.

46:00So this unity and diversity, I think, is pointed to by quantum entanglement, and it's there in some of these traditions. Because consciousness is beyond space and time. It lives beyond space, and so do we live beyond space and time. Because we are the living consciousness. We are beyond space and time. That's how I know when something is bothering my daughter and I call her up and say, what's wrong? And she got, how do you know, because we have that ability, this is innate within us. This is part of consciousness. I mean, this is consciousness itself beyond space and time. But we are also beyond space and time. Why not the body? We only have one. Yeah. Yeah. It seems to come back to ego a lot or kind of dismantling the ego part of you that makes you think you're just the body essentially.

47:00So can you kind of talk about like how ego even has to be deconstructed to experience these things? Yeah. Well, I did get that, I did get that teaching directly about that. The ego is just the case of this identification, because you just, it's a thought structure. Ego is a little built on thought structure, it's an illusion. You think you're a body, you think you're a person, you think you're separate, you think you're a job. You think you're a gender. And that's, that's egoic structure. And once you go, and the structure lives lives lives from here down in this separative fear based. And anything connected with that is all fear based material existence. But once you can enter this territory within you, it's beyond that I false identification is just an illusion. It's just an illusion based on thought and mind. So beyond thought, now you're into the realm of being and your true divine nature that exists everywhere and everywhere.

48:03It's everywhere. Yeah. Yeah, I think the experience, at least for me, I'll just speak for myself. But like for me, to really, to have sort of that mystic experience sort of dissolves the ego, I mean, it's sort of like that is what it is to me. Like when I'm in deep in meditation, and you're experiencing what Nish referred to as this, this oneness, this connection, this absolute connection of, you know, you and this divine consciousness are the same. There is no separation. And then, and then the same that there's no separation between therefore you and everything else. And you, when you experience that incredible oneness, like that ego is gone, it just, it dissolves it. And so, I mean, at one level, it's like we can't, again, we've talked about this a lot here in this episode, but you know, and these are things we can't, we come in and out of these things, right. It's very difficult and maybe even impossible to like live your entire life and completely, you know, separated from your ego.

49:10You can think in some ways your ego is, is helpful, it, it protects you and all that, but, but it's good to remember that it isn't reality. That is not you, right, it is a projection is something that your mind creates so that you can, you know, get up and go to work and live your life. But, but the more you recognize that, that is not reality, that is not you. You can begin to treat it as and, and be aware of it as something that is sort of an illusion or an imagination or projection. And then remember, it's more about, it's a more about awakening to it and then remembering it. And then I think it's kind of being a conscious observer. Yes, like pulling, being able to do that. And this idea, there's an excellent book called the untethered soul that talks about that. I'm very helpful. Well, this, this permission of like, I disagree with, go ahead very. Let's go say I disagree with you on one level that we're not meant to live in ego, the ego state, that this is what we're transcending now.

50:13You know, you don't have to live in that state. That's, this is a state of fear. This is a state of complete. It's a state of lack of fear and that you can live in the world and create, this is why we're going through this case. Yes, let me know. You know, it's because the ego structure says, oh, you can't live without me. Oh, yeah, you got to have this separation. Are you going to die? No, that's a separation that's killing you. That's what I was thinking about the, the freedom is that I know that I'm to an extent. Like I'm choosing to embrace Zach as all these labels I might add to myself. Those are not the sum of me. But today, I'll choose that. I'll play that game. But then that changes the rules with which I play the game because I can pursue the things that bring me joy and creativity and life. But I'm not going to do that at the expense of another person.

51:13And so I can acknowledge, yes, I put all these things on. I wear them like clothes. I present myself a certain way. But I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to play by the same rules to which someone might think that that is all that there is. And make that their entire personality or goal. And so again, I agree with both of you more or less. But I think there's a when I understand at least. Well, yeah, today I was I was playing the Zach role real hard. And and that got in the way, you know, at least I can acknowledge that. Yeah. But it's sort of like, well, you know, Jesus made the leap. Why couldn't we? That's the whole point. Yeah. You know, so he made the leap not only him, but other other Hindu, you know, spiritual teachers have made this leap too. I mean, this is why they come to the earth to say, hey, remember who you are. You have a body. Yeah. You have to take care of it. Yes, you have a name. But you just have these things as you say, Zach, as clothing.

52:15But it's not your identity. You don't identify with it. You just have to have those identities so that we can live in the world. And, you know, live in the world to make to make things happen around us. But we know for, we don't have to live in that state of identity. Once you make this leap, then you can live as the, as the seers and the saints and all the mystics say you can live that way because many of them have come to the earth and live that way. So this is, this is the great, unbelievable leap. I mean, this is an astonishing thing to me when this happened to me. Oh, my God, we can actually have that state. And certainly, yeah, what I like that state back now. Well, I'm in this physical being on this. But yeah, but I don't forget it, you know, it's a matter of remembering as you say, Keith, remembering constantly remembering and choosing to be present to it and remember it. Because the other just drags you into this, you know,

53:16separative thing as you say, Zach, you can take on this role of Mary or Zach or whatever. And it's like, oh, my God, you know, hold it, stop the presses. I am that, you know, and coming from that state. So I can, you know, we're in a transition. This is a big transition. This is no easy leap. Yeah. This leap from here to here is gigantic. It's gigantic. It's evolutionary. It's astonishing. It's outrageous. It's radical. But yet, it's normal. Yeah. That is our normal state. And what had happened to me, I thought it was the last person to know because it seems so normal. Which is kind of funny. Miss, did you have something radical? Oh, yes, please. I wanted just to build on what both were all three of you were saying is that it's useful. I find it useful to distinguish, try to distinguish between

54:17the distinctions in the world that are actually necessary and useful. And when we take those distinctions and differences too far, and then they become dualisms and separation that cause problems. So I mean, I refer to this as multiplicity and fragmentation or parts and fragments. So for practical purposes, there are parts. If I'm driving a car and there's a car in front of me, it's different to me. I'm not going to just crash into it because there's wholeness. I mean, that's not going to be. That's not going to, you know, hold up in court when I'm. But if we take those separations too far and lose touch with the wholeness that's underlying those parts, then one way to frame it is that those parts, which are valid, then become fragments. And it's the fragments that cause a problem, not parts that are still connected to the whole. I mean, a really good example of this I find is with the division of the world into different nationalities or races.

55:21About a certain level that has a certain use of traveling to a different country or so on. But there is an underlying wholeness, which is that at a deeper level, we're not different. We're all, you know, there's a common humanity. If we see races as different but lose sight of that underlying wholeness, then races that are parts become races that are fragments. And that becomes a serious problem and have a similar example with religions as well. So I think that's a useful way. As long as we don't lose touch with the underlying wholeness, we can navigate live in this world of parts. But we're always grounded in the past. That's beautifully said. Yeah, definitely. It's like an easier way today for some people to grasp it. It was also reminding me. I don't know if any of you guys watched pleuribus on Apple TV. Yeah. I feel like we've gotten to the point there. What that show did so well that I thought was it felt like there's the critique of like forced community or forced unity.

56:28And individualism and how sometimes you need to still be an individual. Sometimes you need to be a part of the group, but you also don't want to force someone into the group and like lose parts of themselves. Yeah. So kind of with which I think was maybe the diamond model in the book that like talks about how like we can have diversity and be individuals. Can you kind of talk about that too? Yeah. Yes. That was an issue. Oh, nice. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. So my understanding of the term non-dualism, which is often seen as the highest realization in the traditions is that the holes and the parts can coexist together. There's no real conflict between the two. So as seeming individuals, we can be individuals and also the whole at the same time. Yeah. We can be different and also the same at the same time.

57:31And that's the most difficult thing I think to hold and navigate. But that's the highest realization. I think we can obviously we can just get lost in the parts. And that's what most of the world is. I think we can also get lost in wholeness. Yeah. That hearts also have a role to play if we're going to survive at least while we're embodied in the world. So the challenge really is can I be. You know, to use metaphorical language, can I be God or the divine and this separate individual niche at the same time because I'm both. I'm different and I'm also the same as everybody else. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. I think it's a bit of a paradox. Yeah. And it's so funny because like a few years ago, I was personally wrestling with thinking of trying to understand the nature of God. And I was wrestling between pantheism, which is the view that God is, all things.

58:36And the other view, which is panendism, someone like Richard Roer is a is a big proponent of this view. That God is in everything, but God is not summarized by everything. Right. And so I was I was leaning. I kind of went back and forth on those and. And they and where I landed. And this is just what made sense for me. And I think it's similar to what you were saying. Um, the answer to the question is, is it pantheism or is it panendism? Um, I think the answer is yes. It is both. And I know that makes no sense. How could it be both? But, but what I realized was, like, I think it is a paradox. I think in some way it is somehow true. I can't understand what way it's true. But back when I was an evangelical Christian, I believed in and taught this concept called the Trinity. Which I also could not explain. And, and, and I would basically come down and just come and say to people, you know, when I try and fail to explain the Trinity, I would just say,

59:39it's a paradox, right? And, and that's kind of how I feel about this same question. Like, how can I be an individual and at the same time be one with this, you know, divine consciousness? How can that be? Well, we just are. I don't think there is a way. Maybe at some point we'll get the software upgrade and it'll all click and we'll go, ah, of course. Right. We're in the midst of the software upgrade. Yes. This is what we're in the midst of. Yeah. And I can tell you, when you experience it, it's, it is unbelievable because, and it's no longer a paradox. Yeah. Because this, this, you know, this creative force that we are just likes to create. Yeah. And we create this and we create that and we, you know, just create different things. And it's all creation. Yeah. But the true, it's the true remembrance of our true nature is one of this universal divine field of beingness.

1:00:46It's hard to, I can't explain what it was like to live in that for 30 minutes. But I can tell you that it's something that you can't really grasp with the mind thoughts to try to explain, because the mind wants to understand. The mind is trying to explain, understand how in the world can I live in this world with a name as being so-called individual. Yeah. And once you have that experience, the paradox is solved. And you just see unity and everything. You see unity and diversity. Yeah. It's all unity and diversity because that's the state you're coming from. And it's quite natural. That is our natural status, quite natural to us. We just forgot. That's all. So it's a whole other, a whole other way of being. And you can't explain it with the mind. Yeah. The mind wants to understand how can this possibly be?

1:01:50But it is. It's all I can say is it is. And when it happens, this is, this is, this is, this is where we're going. I mean, this is what's happening to us. And, and, and, and why I was giving that, I guess to maybe explain some of it from my point of view, what happened to me? It's just, I'm just, I'm just like everybody else. Yeah. And I knew nothing. I wasn't constrained by other ways of thinking. I was just very open. Yeah. So it, but it, but this is, it is a paradox until you have the experience. And then it's no longer a paradox. Yeah. It's kind of. It's kind of humorous. Yeah. I didn't want to graph it. Like I might, that was my experience. I was processing some of this. It's like, I want to be able to draw it on a napkin. I want to be able to run its spreadsheet. That's what my mind was to do. And it's something you just have to say. That's not how that works. Yeah. It's like, it's, you know, it's sort of like when they say you can't serve two masters.

1:02:52Yeah. It's either the master of the mind thoughts ego or this master that you truly are. Yeah. The one this doesn't go here. This doesn't go here. Yeah. Yeah. So because it's because this is our natural state. This is who we are. And it seems like a paradox. But when you experience it, it's no longer a paradox. And it's quite blissful and quite amazing. And you're humorous at some point if you can go to that point. Right. But, you know, it's not, it's a difficult transition. And then I appreciate how difficult it is. Yeah. It's reminding me a little bit when I was, I did a lot of therapy in my 20s. And I was and still am someone who defaults to being like an intellectualizer. And so so many times my therapist for you and who's just listening and can't see me. Would point at her head and she was, she would be like, I know you know this. And then she would point at her heart and she'd be like, but I don't think you know this.

1:03:54And I was like, what is the difference? I already know it. I know all the facts up here. And she would be like, you're going to feel different when like your soul accepts it. Your heart accepts it or whatever. And some of it's reminding me now, of course, of my therapy. Where I was like, well, I know all the right words in the right order. But it's like, it's not the same thing as like actually starting to believe different things about yourself. Yeah. So I feel like that must be similar. So that's a great therapist cake. Keep that. It was fantastic. Yes. She was wonderful. Because yeah, there's in that's kind of getting into there's a lot of somatic stuff that I needed to kind of sink into. But I like, I like staying in my head sometimes. Which is always. With kind of with this quantum theology, how does it reinterpret for you things like,

1:04:57like even like evil and like spiritual evolution, like how does it make you feel about or how has it changed your thoughts on those kinds of things. I think that might require a whole other book. Well, hey, that's the volume two and volume two of theology. We're going to dive directly into that question because I think that is the that to me anyway is sort of the was the next logical question that came up. Yeah. So you have the the initial blissful, oh my gosh, I'm one with the divine. Oh my gosh, I'm I'm one with all humanity. This is beautiful and amazing. And you know, you you have this period of of that aha wow kind of experience. But then you think about it and then you kind of we alluded to like, you know, you see the things happening in the news. And you want to like wait a minute. That means I'm one with those people doing those horrible things. And what do I do with that? So I think I think that question and the question of evil, the question of suffering in the world has always been sort of the most difficult question.

1:06:05And I think for religion and and you know, spirituality to to grapple with. But I but I we are so we are going to tackle that in the next the next book. I think there is an answer to it. I don't know that I've come across anything personally. I'd like to hear from Zach and Mary and Nish on this and their perspective of it. And there's there's things that I've come across that are better than others when it comes to ways of understanding that question. The one the one at the moment that helps me the most is that there is an analogy again Richard Roer talks about in one of his books. I think it's the universal Christ. He tells the story of a woman who had a mystical experience on the subway. And she suddenly could see Christ and everyone right she could see this Christ and every everyone she looked at. And it this it lasted for like a couple of days where everyone she saw the sidewalk anyone she ran into she could see the Christ in them.

1:07:09But then she said for some people when she saw Christ in them she says it was Christ was in them but only as Christ was in his tomb awaiting resurrection. So in other words Christ was in everyone but not everyone had that Christ awakened in them had not come alive in them yet. And that means that's why they were working they were they were working through and and acting and believing from a place of that Christ in them not having been resurrected yet. And that was very helpful for me. You know evil is just if you evil is just forgetting your true divine nature. That's all it is and when you act out of that if you know you go extructure you can do anything because it's faith fear based. This is all fear based living and so everything is separate and fear which leads to hate of other which then you think you can destroy it.

1:08:13So it's not that you're like those people it's just that you're like in consciousness and and conscious it like in the sense that consciousness belongs to everybody. And it's whether yes as you say it's awakened with you in you or not. You can know you can know this truth of consciousness being available to everybody but not everybody uses it so they act from this level which we call evil. Let's forgetfulness of one's true nature and you can do all kinds of horrific things as we and that's why it's so important to awaken. This is why it's so important until we awaken will continue to do that and you could be and we have to be mindful in ourselves that you don't slam the door and the next person who's coming through in the supermarket because that's right. That's evil about in little bits right or things like that so we all have to be very conscious of what state we're working from which is difficult though because it's it's not easy to be mindful or mindless perhaps in in in in our actions.

1:09:30And it's it's not easy it's not easy to do it but we are in a transitional state for this so for me evil if you spelled evil backwards you know live live or evil live or evil to live is to live truly live right. In Buddhism there's a useful way I think they tackle this they say that what they call the true truth doctrine so there's a true truth and there's also a relative truth and we have to kind of hold both of those together. The absolute truth yes we're all that there's only wholeness we're all God or there's only light that's the absolute truth but we've also incognated in the relative world of things and events that at least at that relative level are relatively separate in that relative world good and evil most certainly exist and we have to be mindful of that we you know we have to enforce laws we have to defend the weak and so we have to do that at the same time.

1:10:32There is only the whole that both both the true together at the same time and one possible way of working towards reconciling these first of all the excellent example Keith gave that you see Christ in everybody but in some he hasn't resurrected yet there's another way that is in the back of a Gita which is a Hindu scripture and the hero of the back of a Gita he's he's in battle and he. He's gone to battle with his cousins who have who are evil people and he has no choice but to go into battle with them to uphold the good and he has a great crisis of conscience at the last moment that how can I go and you know potentially kill these these people and Krishna who's the God who's within in this scripture he talks about this paradox and he says you know there is only God I'm paraphrasing it there is only God. But you also have to do your duty in this world your in Hinduism or your Dharma in the world you also have to back righteously in the world and then he kind of summarizes it in a slightly witty way he says so think of God but then take your bow and arrow and kill your enemy.

1:11:46So we have to somehow do both of those we have to be real about what we have to do to survive and deal with the reality of evil in the world at the same time we hold the truth that there is only God somehow we reconciled that somehow maybe the Christian doctrine of incarnation is a way to reconcile that the absolute is constantly trying to incarnate in each of us in each relative parts God is trying to incarnate through each of us and he did that much more in Jesus than he did in in me for example but that process is going on all the time in each of us and that's probably where the absolute and the relative in terms of that matter. I've read the Bhagavad Gita twice and for me the essence of Arjuna the soul of the separate soul and Krishna are divine nature within the soul. Is it internal battle? Yes, internal battle you're going to kill this ego. Are you going to do your Dharma and let it go or what are you going to do?

1:12:58So for me it's not so much an external truth that happened with the Bhagavad Gita but rather an internal battle on the battlefield this is the battlefield. This is the true battlefield it all happens in here are you going to take up your Dharma and realize that you are divine that you're this Krishna this energy of divinity or are you going to live here or are you going to do Arjuna because we're all Arjuna on the battlefield. This is the battlefield and to decide that you don't want to live that way is not so much deciding but it's the transformation of consciousness happening in humanity now that it's that it's this is the battlefield right here. And which masters are you going to serve reclaim yourself and it's a battle to reclaim yourself because you have to deal with this this is why I couldn't hold I can only hold it for 30 minutes because I had to go back down and battle this in here my own issues that we call karma you know my own issues I have to deal with in myself and how I

1:14:21could I once a having that experience could I live in this world and treat people the way they should be treated yeah the work that I do the way I hold the door open for somebody or don't And it's this this in it's the little things because it's the little things if you can't be trusted in the little things how in the world can you be trusted in the big things. So it is a true battlefield here that the Bhagavad Gita is really talking about and of course it then it talks about self realization in the end but it's it's not an easy task to go from here to here. This is the task a humanity has been given and it's a huge battlefield and we're all in this battlefield together you know yeah so it's it's not an easy it's very difficult it's but yet it's simple it's like it is that paradox but once you had that experience you know what the books are trying to talk about.

1:15:31But far greater far greater than anything that's in us than any book had ever explained including the Bhagavad Gita or the Bible or the upon the shots or the you know the Vedas any of them they only point to it look but try to cross this ocean try to cross that you know not an easy task because divine permission has to be given here to cross. Nothing goes here that ever is involved in here it's not possible you can't take this here it's two different worlds and this is this is the transitions we're making in this in these worlds on this earth you imagine what humanity is involved in now we got to give ourselves a pat on the back this is not easy where warriors inside of our souls it's not an easy task. It's not and I do think I think people are probably very intimidated when they hear the words quantum theology next to each other so kind of my last question would be other than reading this book do you guys have any are there any practical things.

1:16:47People can do I know yours was kind of spontaneous Mary but is there anything they can kind of do it in their daily life to start maybe like understanding this more or connecting to it more. There might not be but you know you're. I mean I was probably going to say something very similar to most of you which is just engaging in contemplative practices that help us to drop from ego space into better awareness so that we can recognize like all that wasn't. That was a thought or an emotion or feeling but that wasn't the core of what that reaction wasn't who I am and I think the more we can practice those things for ourselves even if only for a few minutes a day then we can begin to extend that to other people and so when they react or respond to us we recognize like that's not them and this isn't necessarily even about me probably this is just what.

1:17:52What what this relational stew provided in this moment and maybe my ego doesn't have to take as big a hit I don't have to on as reactively and i'm i'm really not great at any of that but it's a practice that's why it's called a practice so. Anything anything in any tradition and any words that people find they can attach to I think that's what I would offer and say hey just find find the thing that works and and try it. Yeah or even just volunteer volunteer to do something that's so kitchen you know anything food pantry anything any kind of volunteering that connects you and it just something about that volunteering ignites something within you. Yeah yeah I agree I think it's just having an openness and a desire to want to experience some of these things I think it is very experiential.

1:18:55So yes books can help you know kind of plant some seeds give you some ideas but ultimately you need to put the book down and whether that's meditation or gratitude or service and his thing about it too it's going to be different for everybody that's why it's difficult to get. I think it's going to give some advice yeah because it really is I mean some people it's walking in nature some people it's reading poetry I mean you like it it doesn't there's no way to know for each individual person you everyone kind of needs to I think it's it's the seeking that is important and and then just trusting that you'll find the door the door that's open that's waiting for you. That's the wisest thing Keith I you know I hear people say I mean that's that's it what you said right there. My door looks like being a dad to a 12 and a 15 year old so that's my biggest spiritual practice right now and where I see most of my failures as well though.

1:19:59If you want to see how how evolved you are you know being with your family for a while and they'll help you along that's right and they'll help you. Well one of my teachers said to me if you want to know how enlightened you are go and spend the weekend with your parents. That's exactly right. I don't want to take that back. But I think it's also doesn't even have to be anything explicitly spiritual it's anything that enables you to open up to a world that's much bigger than you are. I mean you can have that with great music. The experience of the experience of falling in love and these kind of experiences are mystical in the rest. They open you up to much bigger than who you really are and at the very least you'll get a glimpse of that whole. Yeah go deeper than there are formal practices you can do meditation, prayer and so on but it often begins with something spontaneous of walking in nature.

1:21:04Yeah that's reminding me when I finally learned about the lecture of lessons oh sorry go ahead. I was going to say nice you're right nature how could I forget nature. Yeah the flowers being with the flowers giving flowers to somebody. I mean yeah mother nature yeah go ahead sorry Kate. No you're totally fine. I grew up I'm a pastor's kid so I was in church a lot and then I deconstructed kind of like completely but I remember when I learned that collective effort for lessons which is the idea of like when you're with for anyone who doesn't know any of the listeners of really large group of people or even not super large but when you're with a group of people and it tends to happen with music that's kind of what maybe think of it when this was mentioning it. I have it happen in like the movie theater even for like really powerful movies. And I was like oh I can feel this outside of church like it wasn't just that it was church music that was making me feel this way.

1:22:06So I do love like that niche pointed out like it it's sometimes it's music stories of any kind like books TV shows movies all of that can make you feel so so connected to everyone. Yeah so yeah I think that is really powerful. Well I'm very intrigued to hear about volume two now as well. But thank you guys for being here to talk about volume one of quantum theology. Thank you. Thanks for having us Kate.