Professor Dame Pamela Shaw

0:00Hello, I'm Lauren the Vern and this is the Desert Island Disks podcast from BBC Radio 4. Every week I ask my guests to choose the A-tracks, book and luxury that they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. For right reasons the music's shorter than on the original broadcast but you can find a version with longer music tracks on BBC sounds. Listeners will also get access to episodes 28 days earlier than everyone else. I hope you enjoy listening. Music My cast away this week is the neurologist Professor D. Impamela Shaw. Her pioneering medical career has been spent tackling what she calls the worst disease in medicine, motor neurone disease or MND. Her interest in neurology was sparked by a hospital visit as a girl

1:02growing up in Kuwait in the 1960s. She witnessed a young boy undergoing a brain scan. She first encountered MND as a young doctor in the late 80s. For a stator that's so little could be done to help those who'd been diagnosed she pledged to dedicate her working life to making a difference. She's the founder and director of Citran, the world leading Sheffield Institute for Translation or Neuroscience which is slowly but surely unlocking the secrets of this and other devastated neurological conditions. They recently developed a groundbreaking treatment, a drug that can actually affect the progression of MND in certain patients. She says, I've never been bored in my career. Combining research and clinical work gives you enormous variety and the opportunity to make a real difference. There's nothing more satisfying than making a discovery and seeing a translate into something that genuinely improves human lives. Professor D. Impamela Shaw, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Thank you, Lauren. So, Pam, take me back to your early

2:07medical career then. What made you want to focus on MND? I always knew even when I was still at school that I was interested in the brain and the nervous system and when I was a trainee neurologist helping with clinics and so on, just something about the plight of MND patients really got to me. It made me feel like a bit of a useless doctor really because... What were things like back then? What sort of prognosis did people have? There were no drugs of any sort to help protect the motor neurons. We didn't even intervene very well with troublesome symptoms, like swallowing difficulties or breathing difficulties. So, I used to almost dread getting a set of notes for a MND patient because I felt I could do so little to help. It feels like these days motor neurone disease is much more visible than it used to be. I mean, you know, obviously, Professor Stephen Hawking lived for many years with the condition and then we had Rowy Players

3:11Doddy Weir and Rob Borrow who shared what they were going through at former Castaway, Kevin Sinfield, you know, a good friend of Rob who's done so much fundraising and awareness raising. How do you feel about that change about it being in the spotlight? Those high profile sportsmen, it's so courageous of them to show their symptoms to the world when they have been such powerful athletes themselves, but they've done an awful lot to raise awareness and their families have as well. I mentioned that, you know, how much you said you enjoyed being both a clinician and a researcher. Why is that? You know, what kind of balance does that bring? Seeing patients, but also, you know, spending time in the lab. If you're a researcher as well as a clinician, what you're trying to do is harness your research to do some good in the clinic and that's why our research institute at the University of Sheffield is called a translational neuroscience institute. So we're trying to harness

4:13all the exciting scientific discoveries in neuroscience and translate those into benefits for patients in the clinic. And how big is your team, then? Oh, there are about 300 researchers now at Citran and we're full. So we're in the middle of building a sister building joined on to Citran. So we'll double our capacity. That new building will be ready in October time. Are they going to name it after you? No, no, no, no, no, no, just sit. Why not? Just sit. Come on. No, no. Well, you have had several owners, including being made a name in 2014. Is that a title that gets used in the workplace? To be honest, it's a very feasible thing to people use cheekily, do they? Yes, they sing into my voicemail. You know, there ain't nothing like a day and that kind of thing. So, you know, usually at work I'm just pan. And what about your title?

5:13How did you find out that you'd been selected? I was at a conference at the Royal College of Physicians and my husband sent me an urgent, urgent text and I thought, oh, my goodness, what's happened at home? The house is on fire. My dogs died. So I went out of the lecture, took the message and Paul, my husband said, Pam, there's a great big envelope here. Just come in the post from the Prime Minister's office. Can I open it? So he did open it and it was absolutely, you know, I was completely flabbergasted. I had no idea that that was going to happen. Well, well deserved, as well here today. And of course, we're going to hear your music to, Pam, how's it been putting your discs together? So I like all sorts of music, but the ones that I did choose have some special meaning. So it wasn't too hard for me to pick them out. Well, tell us about your first, then what's the story behind Disc No. 1? It's the Alleluia chorus by Handel and I go up to my

6:19study and play it when there ever is some momentous, joyful thing that's happened in life, whether it was, you know, getting first-class honours in medicine from my unconventional, educational background, my daughter doing so well in her psychology degree, sometimes when my husband wins a golf match, we play it, but also in terms of work, one of the fantastic things is the emergence of Tofison as a treatment for at least a subgroup of patients with M&D. So that's a world first, isn't it? It's an absolute game changer. This is the first time, actually, a good proportion of patients. They either stabilize and don't change over a period of years, but some of them actually recover muscle strength. So it's a really big moment in terms of M&D research.

8:18Handel's Messiah performed by the London Philharmonic Orchestra and chorus conducted by Douglas Gammley. For medical breakthroughs and for your husband, Paul's, holes in one. So, Pam, sure, let's go back to the beginning, shall we? You were born in Rothbury, Northumbland in April 1955, the second of four children to Robert and Valerie Shaw. Yes. Tell me about your mum and dad. How did they meet? So they met in Morpeth, which is a market town in Northumbland. My mum was a nurse. She ran Morpeth Cottage Hospital. So she was the nurse in charge of that. Did she enjoy doing that? She did. Yes, she did, although they had four children, so she didn't carry on working really once my older brother was born. My father, when they got married, he was a captain in the merchant navy. Just a lovely character. Everyone liked him. Very easy going,

9:18very much a family man. And because of his long sea journeys, he didn't see his baby daughter till I was six months old. Oh my goodness. And that's, I think he decided that wasn't the life for a family man. And so he went to Kuwait and used his maritime skills. So he was a marine pilot, piloting oil tankers and then ran the harbor as harbor master, but that meant he could be at home. Okay, so this is the big move that your family made. You're about three, I think. When in 1958, you moved to Kuwait, which from Morpeth in Northumbland is, I mean, you couldn't get more different. It's a big move, yes. It was a really nice life to grow up in Kuwait very much, an outdoor life, lots of swimming and beaches and sailing and the town we lived in called Archmady, the sector of it that we lived in. It was all British, European, American people who were working in Kuwait. So there

10:22was a very good social life. We used to celebrate New Year, Kuwait time, UK time, America, US time. It's a really stretch out. My only regret is I didn't train myself to speak Arabic fluently. And actually the local Kuwaitis were always very keen to practice their English. So if I tried to say something in Arabic, they would just take over in English. I think you also joined the Kuwait branch of the brownies, didn't you? Yes, I was a sprightly spright with a green badge in the brownies, but I loved the brownies. They taught you things that girls would never really learn, you know, how to tie different types of knots and how to set a table properly and all sorts of useful things I learned in the brownies. Your dad was very easy going. So he would have adapted to this new adventure quite well. What about your mum, what kind of character was she and how did she adapt to so my mum, very kind person, very well supported by my dad. I mean my dad devoted his life really to

11:31making my mum's life as happy as he could. And did she tell you much about her former life as a nurse? She did. She used to tell stories. In a way it was my mum that got me interested in medicine. And so when I was at school I wanted to do subjects that would enable me to study medicine. So she planted that seed? Yes she did. All right, Pum, let's have some more music. It's time for your second choice today. What's it going to be? My second choice is a piece by Frank Sinatra. It just reminds me of childhood in Kuwait, but also in Northumberland, so my parents would come home to Northumberland to Morpeth every year. They kept a place there didn't they? They kept a place there and they would come home for six weeks every year. And my mum in particular just loved Frank Sinatra. I know I stand in line until you think you have the time to spend an evening with me.

12:32And if we go someplace to dance I know that there's a chance you won't be leaving with me. And afterwards we drop into a quiet little place and have a drink for two. And then I go and spoil it all by saying something stupid like I love. Frank and Nancy Sinatra with something stupid. Pum, sure you just shared the loveliest memory with me. Tell us about it of your mum when listening to that track. Yes, so when my parents were in their early 80s their health became quite frail and we as a family, including my parents decided it would be best to move them down to near where we were in Sheffield to shelter the accommodation where they could have a bit more ongoing support. So my daughter Sophie and I went up to Northumberland to pack up my parents' house,

13:34getting my mum to choose which thing she wanted to bring with her. And she was wandering round with a smile on her face, galley unpacking what Sophie and I had packed but humming Frank Sinatra. And I think she was humming, I'll do it my way. Oh, bless her. All right, so Pum, your own interest in medicine was sparked by your mum but also by an experience that you had in Kuwait. You went to the Anglo-American School in Akamadi as you mentioned. Tell us a bit about what it was like. It was a great school that we did lots of sports. You know, we were taught to swim. It was a very good school. And it was a trip to a hospital that really sparked something in you. It took us on a school trip to the big hospital in Kuwait City and I saw a young Kuwaiti boy who must have only been 10 or 11 years old and he was having a technician brain scan where they

14:36do an injection of a radio isotope. It gets taken up by the tumour so this young boy had a tumor inside his head and they showed us the scans of this and I just thought, gosh, that's amazing. So it did hit a chord, sparked an interest in me for sure. So you loved your primary school but you couldn't stay beyond the primary. There was no real secondary education for overseas kids so we all had to come back to boarding school at the age of 11 so I went to a school in Anik in Northumberland just next to Anik Castle. Where they filmed Harry Potter and I went there because some of my friends from Morpuff attended that school as day girls but it had a boarding facility so I was a border. How did you adapt? I was okay with it. I'd had lots of friends and I was keen on my schoolwork so it wasn't too much of a problem for me. We would go out to Kuwait for Christmas

15:41and summer and then my parents would usually be home for Easter. So it was quite long chunks where you were together. I'm what about the basics? I mean, how was it being back in Chilly, North and Blund after swimming in Plain Tennyson in air conditioned Kuwait? When I was about eight years old, I did jump into the North Sea expecting it to be like the Persian Gulf and I've never liked Cold Water Plunges ever since then. So yeah, none of that for you. No, Cold Water Swimming for you. And you knew quite early on that you wanted to study medicine but you had some challenges with A-level biology. What happened? The school I went to was wonderful for the arts, for languages. I did A-level French just for the love of it. It was my favourite subject. Music, drama, Gilbert and Sullivan operettas. Wonderful for all of that but the headmistress at the time

16:42did not think that young ladies really needed to know anything about physics and chemistry. And even biology, I really did A-level biology on my own. I took the syllabus and just studied from textbooks. The lovely teacher who took on biology was a trained cookery teacher. Yeah, no, I just took the syllabus and just learned it at all. How did you get on then? How did you do in your exams? Yeah, no, I got A-s in both subjects but I knew I had a year in hand because they bumped me up a year. Oh yeah, so they bumped you up a year just for the class size. Yes, they couldn't fit enough desks in the classroom so they decided to bump me up a year. So I did. It sound quite a pragmatic bunch. In a way that experience taught me to be self-reliant. If I really want to go to medical school, it's up to me to work hard and make that happen.

17:43So you knew you had this sort of extra year? Did you decide to do some extra study during that time? So I did those two A-levels and then I went to another school in Northumberland in a little place called Hayden Bridge and I did a crash course in physics and chemistry and the master there was a chemistry teacher by background and he really took me under his wing and helped me kind of learn those two subjects from scratch really so I was lucky. Pam, let's have some more music. It's your third choice. What have we got here? It's Joni Mitchell. I think one of her teachers, school teachers described her as a painter with words and if you listen to her songs, she really is. She talks about sunlight coming through windows like butter scotch and things like that and I always used to play Joni Mitchell when I was about to go into the medical school for an exam and somehow it just sort of calmed me down. So I chose both sides now from Joni Mitchell

18:50just reminding me of those happy days as a medical student. And give and take and still somehow we'd love solutions. I recall I really don't know learn. Joni Mitchell and both sides now. So Pam, I assure you mentioned a love of Gilbert and Sullivan and I think it was that that clinched the deal for your place at Newcastle University, wasn't it? Yes, I think it was. I applied to Newcastle as my first choice and I was a bit unconventional. You know, I had loads of old levels and these two A levels but not physics and chemistry and I was interviewed by the professor of medicine and the interview was going okay and then he asked me

19:56and what do you like to do when you're not doing your school work and I said well every year at school we have a Gilbert and Sullivan operator so I've just been pushed to in the mccargetal and his eyes lit up he loved Gilbert and Sullivan so he smiled and the interview went very well after that so I'm convinced that it was Gilbert and Sullivan that got me into medical school. Thank heavens for your Pish Toshpan. So I know how grateful you've said you feel to Newcastle's medical school for taking a chance on you as you put it. Did you make them proud with your results? Well yes, I graduated with first class honors and one of my professors told me that I was the best medical graduate they had had for 10 years so I didn't that feel for you know having every you must have felt a bit on the back foot when you joined and to hear that. I didn't quite believe it in some ways but yeah as well as enjoying all the rotations of clinical training you did

21:00orthopedics, obstetrics and everything like that you also met your now husband Paul. Yes so Paul was in the year above me we used to have discos in the doctor's mess and I was helping behind the bar and Paul came to order a drink and he said oh I'd do anything for you. And then a little while later he you know asked me out and it went from there. You also shared a mutual love of flowers that I think still endures. Yes when I first went back to his flat he had this red painted windowsill and window frames and it was covered with fuchsias from his dad's greenhouse so I thought gosh she likes plants I like plants and you know we still do we have a big garden one and a half acres oh wow and I love roses and so we have a lot of roses. Paul does while I'm still

22:02busy at work he does most of the heavy lifting in the garden but I do have to go after the roses. So you graduated from in 1979 tell me about life as a junior doctor. It was very busy I was based in Newcastle I did a year for example at Dryburn Hospital in Durham so I went as a medical registrar to Durham and then came back to Newcastle so when I was training in neurology we were doing one night in two one weekend and two on call and we had the only CT scanner in the whole region so the whole of the northeast and across the Carlyle Cumbria to the Scottish border. Oh wow. So the on calls were really busy because you get physicians ringing from Carlyle saying I've got this patient I think he needs an urgent headscan so it was really busy for four years doing that training but really good training. You were going great guns yourself obviously you were well supported but in

23:051988 you wrote a paper on the neurological complications of cardiac bypass surgery and that actually resulted in a change in clinical practice I think. Yeah we were repeatedly being called to the Cardiathoracic unit in Newcastle which was at a different hospital, Freeman hospital to see patients who'd had conreatriate bypass surgery and had some neurological problem post operatively so I did my higher degree my MD studying 300 plus patients before and after their heart surgery. What did you find out? One of the things was little embelly that caused blockages in the small vessels in the brain and when the patient's heart stopped and they're having the surgery you get oxygen into the blood of the patient in different ways and there were membrane oxygenators and bubble oxygenators and bubble oxygenators were much more likely to cause these little

24:08circulatory problems within the brain so actually you know describing the spectrum of disorders and their recovery caused people to move away from the bubble oxygenator. It raised awareness and the cardiologist Cardiathoracic surgeons at Freeman hospital you would imagine they might be a bit put out by this whippersnapper of a young neurologist coming around looking at their patients but actually they weren't they were they were really kind and very interested in the findings. Fantastic. All right let's have some more music I think Pam it's your fourth choice today. What's next and why are you taking this to the island? My next piece is the clarinet concerto in A Major from Mozart. I first heard that I think in the 1990s and I went to a Moten Your Own Disease conference in Berlin and the person hosting the conference took us to this little theatre

25:11which was oldy worldy, old wooden panels and so on and to a live performance of this piece of music and I was blown away by it it made my spine tingle the clarinet and the way it goes from high notes to low notes it's just about my favourite piece of music altogether. Pam well as a new neurologist when you're listening to music and having those feelings feel in your spine tingle are you thinking about what's actually happening to your brain? Not really no no but it's interesting it's lit what what what on earth there must be synapses firing to cause that sensation but it really did make my spine tingle.

27:07A major performed by Thea King and the English Chamber Orchestra conducted by Alan Francis. So Pam sure we talked earlier about your achievements in the specialist field of Moten Your Own Disease. MND is a disease that leads to loss of control of a patient's muscles over time it can lead to problems with breathing swallowing and can often progress quite rapidly. When you started what treatments were available to patients? Really there was there was nothing very much at all. One treatment came through in the mid 1990s really is all which is still used today and it does have some effect it just slows down the course of the condition on average by a few months. How fast is the progression of the condition usually? It's very variable and I always say that to patients and the speed of progression varies a lot between different people. The example

28:11of Stephen Hawking who had it for more than half a century in its worst form it can be really rapidly changing you know causing major problems within 12 months of the first symptom and that speed of change makes it very frightening for patients and their families. But also for you Pam I mean such a thing to take on as a young doctor how did friends and colleagues react when you said this is the specialist and this is what I want to do. Some of them said why an earth would you want to do that Pam? Is it not very depressing and it is in a way I write condolence letters to families almost every week but you have to learn to control the sadness that you feel for families I guess. You don't stop feeling the sadness or compassion but you learn to control how it displays itself I suppose. What do you know now what do we know about why people develop a Mendi? Back in the

29:121990s the first gene was found that can cause familial MND so around about 10% of people with MND will report someone else in the family had the same condition so the first gene was found in the 1990s called sod 1, SOD 1 and since then with with all the sophisticated genetic sequencing that you can do now there are more than 30 genes that have been found. The first one, sod 1 MND there is the toferson treatment. The treatment that your centre has introduced it's not available on the NHS yet. Not yet it's been approved by MHRA but it still has to be considered by NICE the National Institute for Clinical Excellence and they're considering it but in the meantime the pharmaceutical company that manufacture it they're making it available to patients free of charge if you know you have that gene change. How is it delivered? It's given via a lumber puncture so a little needle

30:17in your back into the spinal fluid that's around your spine and it's given intratheically into the spinal fluid and it has to be given that way every month. Some patients have been having that monthly lumber puncture for eight plus years. Wow and I know that you've got some some patients who you know you'll never forget there was those one gentleman that I read about who was a solicitor in Glasgow and and he helped with one breakthrough tell me about him. The end of the illness in MND often happens because the breathing muscles become weak and all the neurons supplying your diaphragm and breathing muscles become weak but there was a solicitor from Glasgow who came down to my clinic in Newcastle. He was still walking about but in real problems with his breathing and it had to give up work and so on because of this breathlessness and he went back to Glasgow and this enlightened respiratory physician said there's this new type of support for breathing muscles that come out.

31:22Let's try you with that so it's a mask that you put on a bit like you'd use for sleep apnea. You put it on when you go to bed at night. It assists your breathing muscles during the night and so he came back to see me in Newcastle after this had been introduced and he was a different man. You know he was sleeping well he'd put on weight he was able to get back to work and so that inspired me that we ought to try this more systematically to see if it will help patients. So I joined forces with respiratory physician in Newcastle John Gibson and together we did a formal trial. It showed dramatic benefits. To have a breakthrough where you actually see people in prove it must be mind blowing. What does that feel like? Yeah I know it's it's amazing there are a few things like that where I really feel yes we've done some good there but we have to do that trial

32:24to show the evidence and now that's available to everyone with M&D in the UK and overseas as well so it was it was an important step. All right time for some more music parmots your fifth choice today what are we going to hear? This one and my husband Paul kind of helped me think of this one. I wanted to think of something that would make me remember happy holidays so he had many happy family holidays driving through France or Ireland and so we settled on sweet and dandy by Tutsander Maytalfs so my husband sort of got me interested in reggae music to a certain extent and this one my daughter Sophie used to love to listen to this as we were driving along and we'd all sing along to it.

33:37Sweet and dandy by Tutsander Maytalfs so Pam sure in the early 1000 you moved to Sheffield and you met another patient there who changed the course of your career how did you come across her? The M&D Association charity was holding a fundraising event and so I composed a speech on the train going down about you know the impact of M&D water cruel disease it was and I sat at the dinner next to this professor of obstetrics and he was chatting and he said oh my wife over there at the next table was just told last week that she had motor neuron disease. Oh my goodness. So you can't talk about her devastating it is and all of that so I had to rejig the speech in my head so I met with that lady and she asked me could she come from London to

34:43my clinic in Sheffield. Fortunately she had a slow form of it and survived it for I think six or seven years. So you got to know this lady and you know she she asked you about your pitch for funding. What happened? Yes so she I was she was having some tests in Sheffield and we were just chatting and she said to me if you had 20 million pounds to do something about M&D what would you do and I thought we were just having a light hearted conversation but I sat back and thought about it and I described Citram that I said I would make a dedicated research institute. I'd have clinical doctors and scientists under the same roof having coffee and lunch together and keeping each other right and she said well I'm used to fundraising for my husband's research so I I'm going to try and help you do that go away and write me a brochure about the vision for this

35:46institute. I love her being bossy. I've just got a diagnosis very very much. I love that. That was one of her character traits so there were a group of patrons in London and a group of patrons in Yorkshire and they helped us raise 12 million pounds and then one of the high-powered businessmen that was really the head of the Yorkshire patrons persuaded the vice chancellor that look we're about to make this big donation. I think you need to put in at least half of that and of course the vice chancellor readily agreed. Fantastic. It was very good. What did it mean to you to you know see the fundraising feats and all that effort that was going into to bring in this money? I will probably write a book when I retire about all the generous people that helped. One wonderful gentleman gave us the first million pounds from his charitable foundation and it was like a

36:47snowball once somebody had committed then other people would. There was a chap from Tasmania who knew a person in Yorkshire whose son had had MND that did the same journey that will imply dear to after the mutiny on the bounty with exactly the same size boat, same conditions and again raised a lot of money so there were amazing things and I think it is because MND is such an emotive condition. People who've seen it want to try and help and do something about it. So the Sheffield Institute for Translational Neuroscience or Citran was ready in 2010. Although I'm told that you thought you'd messed up the opening invitation. Oh yes yes. The Duke of Devonshow took an interest in this building and when I got to know him a bit I said to him when the buildings finished would you do us the honour of presiding over the opening of it and he said no.

37:50And I thought oh gosh I've reached protocol by asking directly rather than going through the usual channels and then he got a twinkle in his eye and he said no I won't do it I'm going to find you someone much more important than me. So his job in those days one of his jobs was to run the Ascot races for the Queen and he waited I think until one of her horses did very well and then he said would you come to Sheffield and open this this neuroscience building and she said yes I'd be delighted as long as Philip can come with me so yeah so the Queen and Prince Philip opened it for us in November 2010. All right Pam it's time to go to the music what's next for us? The next piece is from just about my favourite film so the Shawshank Redemption. I've always had a great passion for fairness and justice and that film really touched a chord with me but one

38:54of the most beautiful moments in that film and I think in cinema generally is when Tim Robbins locks himself into the prison library and puts a loud speaker onto the prison yard with this piece from Mozart's Marriage of Figaro duetino Sualaria and it's just amazing the look on his face it's a combination of serenity listening to that music but also mischief knowing what he's doing and then the amazement of of all the prisoners in the prison yard and Morgan Freeman saying I've no idea what those two Italian ladies were singing about their voices were soaring but it gave such hope in the grey dismal prison environment so the duetino Sualaria from the Marriage of Figaro by Mozart.

40:28The Susanna and the Countess from Mozart's Marriage of Figaro as heard in the film the Shawshank Redemption the soloists were Aided Martis and Gondola Yannovitz with the orchestra of the Deutsche opera Berlin conducted by Carbohm. Pam you've mentioned the breakthrough M&D treatment topherson which came through in 2022 tell me about some of the benefits that you've witnessed in patience to whom that drug is helpful. During the trial patients would bring videos of themselves walking up their

41:32garden steps which they haven't been able to do for two years. One gentleman in a wheelchair when he first started actually at the end of the trial walking around his house without any walking aids so it's a real breakthrough. You know looking forward what do you hope for the future you know from this breakthrough for other patients for whom stuff is not appropriate and there are ongoing trials for patients who have different gene changes there's one called Fuzz that is looking very promising but also there are these genetic therapies that tackle some of the damaging mechanisms more broadly so I think the era of genetic therapies is going to be really important. You know I was going to ask what keeps you hopeful today but it must be seen that research. Yes that's why I can't retire yet there are several so there are two exciting treatment possibilities that I just want

42:36to see come through into clinical trials. Well good luck we've got everything crossed for those. Pam your own days are clearly incredibly busy I mean how important have family and friends been in keeping you going over the years. As you say you can't retire he's still watching with John. Yeah no very much so you know one of the lucky things in my life is really being blessed with a beautiful family and my husband has always been you know I work hard and long hours very often but he's nothing but supportive of me and clearly friends and colleagues as well yeah the human contact and just shared experiences, humour definitely keeps you going. All right Pam music keeps you going too of course so I think we should have your seventh choice today. So the seventh choice is a haunting piece by Jay Ungar called the Ashokant farewell and I would have it on my desert island to remind me

43:39of people that we've lost so my parents my father-in-law my sister-in-law my nephew my best friend that I started school with in Kuwait, Christina whose mum taught me how to read I lost her not that long ago but also I would dedicate it to all those families that have had to cope with N&D and face that condition in in one of their loved ones or family members. A Ashokant farewell American folk violinist Jay Ungar with the band of his majesty's royal marines.

44:45Pam you said that piece of music was for friends relatives and patients that you've lost over the years and included your mum and dad in that. Did they get to see some of your achievements? They did and they were always very proud you know that I became a professor of neurology they weren't alive when the DBAE was awarded but interestingly the ceremony at Buckingham Palace was on the 12th of October and they both had their birthdays on that day. No. So several years after they died the ceremony was on their the date of their birthday. Oh okay amazing yeah and of course as well as the dayin hood you've received a number of awards and accolades but I wonder what part of your career has brought you the most pleasure over the years. The results of the Toffison trial had us dancing all the research nurses and the research dancing well yes jumping up and down with excitement but but also training and teaching people

45:47and bringing the next generation along so so one of my he was a trainee a few years ago but he's just become the Rob Borough professor of neurology in Citroen. So you know just seeing people's careers blossoming and you've helped the little bit along the way is very nice. Yeah very special you've just talked about the people the collaboration and that's that's such a big thread in your career I mean it's literally what Citroen is all about that dialogue between clinicians and researchers but it does make we wonder how you'll get on on the desert island you're going to be completely on your own how will that be for you. I've always been able to find things that interest me I would love to have brought one of my animals with me but I know that's not allowed so I would try and stop that now not after 84 years. I would try and find living things on the island because you know animals are great company if

46:50my husband's away the two cats and my dog they they you don't feel lonely in the house so I would I would try and find some wildlife that I could link with. All right well let me take one more disc to your island with you Pam your final choice today what is it. So the final one is again ending on a positive note so I think some female singers have voices like honey and Alice and Kraus is one of those that particularly like her song The Lucky One it always makes me feel you've got to you know if you're having a difficult day for one reason or another it's a count your blessings song so I would definitely have that on the island. I'm going to give you the books the Bible the complete works of Shakespeare and another book of your

48:19choice what about. My daughter Sophie has just introduced me to the novels of a lady called Kristen Hammer if I'm allowed to take more than one book the complete works of Kristen Hammer she describes through the eyes of women really all sorts of life events whether it be you know smuggling children out of occupied France during the war nurses going over to Vietnam to look after wounded soldiers and civilians the great depression in the US and the dust bowls each book has me in tears at some point and Sophie said I think you'd like this mum so she gave me one called The Nightingale. Well there's a six book set that we can give you so that will keep you happy for many hours on the island you can also pan have a luxury item what's that going to be. If I'm allowed three roses and I

49:19would try and find a place where they might thrive so it's relatively shady nook yes which which variety is would you take. One of my favorites is called LD braveweights so it's a deep red rose I very much like the new rose that's just come out so David Beckham so that that's a kind of white one with a yellowish center and which other one this one called Lady of Shalott that's a sort of orangey yellow. The Lady of Shalott and David Beckham together at last on your island Parma I'm all for it. It's nothing like the center of roses. Again it makes my spine tingle when I smell roses. That is luxury perfect choice and finally which one track of the eight that you've shared with us today would you save from the waves first. It's a hard choice but I think it would have to be most sands clarinet conterto. Professor Dame Pamela Shaw thank you very much for letting us hear

50:20your daza island discs. Thank you for having me on the programme I very much enjoyed it. Hello I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Professor Dame Pamela Shaw I'm sure she'll be able to get a roses to survive the island climate. We've cast away so many medical scientists over the years including Professor Stephen Westaby, Professor Dame Leslie Reagan and David Not. The studio manager for today's programme was Jackie Margherum the production coordinator it was Susie Reulens the editor was McGarp Eateria and the producers were Christine Pavlovsky and Tom Albin. Next time my guest will be the singer and songwriter Chuck Akahn I do hope you'll join us.

51:33Hello I'm Greg Jenner I'm the host of your Dead To Me the comedy podcast that takes history seriously and we are back for a 12 series. Everyone in that film is wearing their own pants. We're joined by comedians like Kyle Smith-Binow and Desiree Birch. Can't see how this would go wrong. We'll meet many medieval saints motivational speakers saying it's with the likeers of Madonna head mic on we're doing a history of underwear plus there's loads more. You're dead to me listen on BBC Sounds.