Plato's Lovers with Dr. Larson and Dr. Grabowski

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Garlick, Dr. Larson, and Dr. Grabowski discuss Plato's Lovers--a strange, short, and somewhat forgotten dialogue seeking the definition of philosophy.

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Check out our WRITTEN GUIDE to the Lovers.

Plato’s Lovers is a short, strange, and easily overlooked dialogue that asks one of the most important questions in the entire Platonic corpus: What is philosophy?

Set in a grammar school where two rival older lovers—one an athlete, the other a cultured “know-it-all”—compete for the attention of younger boys discussing astronomy, the conversation quickly becomes an erotic and educational contest. Socrates enters the scene and quietly reorders the loves on display, showing that philosophy is not the accumulation of many things, that self-knowledge must come before any claim to rule, and that the true lover of the young is the one who leads their souls toward wisdom.

In this episode of Ascend, Dcn. Garlick is joined by Dr. Grabowski and Dr. Larson to unpack the dialogue’s subtle images of the soul, its playful yet serious treatment of eros, and its surprising role as an appetizer for the Republic.

The accompanying written guide offers a clear outline, preliminary questions, and dense Q&A—perfect for first-time readers, small groups, or anyone who wants to follow the argument more carefully.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Plato's 'The Lovers'

02:07 The setting and context of the dialogue

06:19 Who is the dialogue for? Audience and purpose

11:12 The erotic dimension of philosophy and education

16:10 The strangeness of the dialogue's setting

22:02 What is philosophy? The first definitions

27:36 The analogy of athletic training and measured learning

37:25 Usefulness, goodness, and self-knowledge

41:11 The political implications and the role of the philosopher

50:11 The dramatic and rhetorical aspects of the dialogue

57:32 The aporetic ending and its significance

Keywords

Plato’s Lovers, Rival Lovers, Erastai, what is philosophy, polymathy, much learning, Socratic dialogue, aporetic dialogue, forgotten Platonic dialogues, eros, erotic education, true love of the soul, tripartite soul, music and gymnastics, mousikē, gymnastikē, self-knowledge, know thyself, Socrates as third lover, Dionysius grammar school, anonymity in Plato, via negativa, aporia, preparation for the Republic, Dr. Frank Grabowski, Dr. Brett Larson, Ascend the Great Books Podcast, Platonic education, philosophy and politics, soul craft before statecraft.