PHANTOM THREAD | Most Toxic Dynamic in Film?!

0:00You becaue, motherfucker. Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. Alright, Mr. Dimele, I'm ready for my Coaster. Hooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! You've heard of the enemies to lovers, you may have even heard of lovers' enemies, but have you ever heard of lovers' enemies to lovers to what on earth am I watching? Welcome to the Holy Moment Podcast, where we watch movies, discuss the moments that work, the moments that don't, and the moments that reflect truth in unexpected ways. Daniel Dayleewis ages like fine wine. Does he not Nathaniel he absolutely does he goes from one of the most beautiful scenes in cinema. He drank Paul Dano's milkshake to a weird little cuckold boy who's on the verge of having a hard attack throughout this entire movie and you know if that's what else do you want out of your wine to taste like? Oh for sure for sure and you know even with all the milkshakes he be drinking he still looks like a snack I would I would drink I would drink okay okay Daniel Dayleewis and Lincoln Daniel Dayleewis

1:04and there'll be blood Daniel Dayleewis and phantom threads for this week's movie what is what's your order of drinkability milkshake up drinkability milkshake okay you know what okay personality wise I'm not drinking phantom threads milkshake Reynolds I'm not drinking his milkshake aesthetics though on an aesthetic level you cannot deny that he got he got it I don't know he felt too old to have got it in some way like Oliver Fox have you ever heard of the phrase silver fox yeah he was a silver fox and there will be blood I don't think he was a silver fox and I don't know if he was silver he didn't have any silver I think I think he had a little bit of silver and his and his burns on the sideburns yeah but this is a proper silver fox and so I would say phantom threads there will be blood and then I'm not I'm not drinking Abe Lincoln's milkshake what are you talking about Abe Lincoln is a sexy sexy man he he had its slavery I drink that milk

2:05and it's slavery that's that it is very sexy but you want you want to know I feel like out of respect for him out of respect for him in his marriage that's fair I mean he wasn't okay he was he was married but into this movie so I guess you don't respect this marriage if they don't respect the wrong marriage how could you yeah this is a very weird marriage and I'm sure we will discuss that um anyway if you haven't guessed already we're talking phantom thread what a weird movie what a technically marvelous movie like technically marvelous I enjoyed the film this is my second wash of this and so I was able to catch things that didn't catch that first time around that made me appreciate it more but this movie has received high praise it's widely considered to be one of the best movies in the 2010s how do you feel about that Nathaniel I feel if Jeffrey watches this movie one more time he is very suspicious on the edge of some kinky bdsm stuff two times will let pass a third time I'm gonna have to talk to your future girlfriend Jeffrey and let

3:10him know this what he's into I will say after you watch this movie after you watch this movie you sent me a text saying Jeffrey what on earth did you make me watch and I said my answer was truly truly aspirational relationship goals and of course I just but do I Jeffrey's being very kind we try and keep the the podcast PG PG 13 but my correct text was what the fuck did you just make me watch that was a verbatim when I texted Jeffrey because in fact I was not sure when I just watched but uh to answer your question no I'm so sorry I'm so sorry I like Paul Thomas Anderson I love Daniel Day Lewis and fashion's pretty cool but uh no this is not one of my top 2010 movies or 2010 movies uh you'll find out when we get to the ranking session you know what I'm just going to rank the movie right now just so you guys kind of have an idea where Nathaniel's heads at this is a 2.4 for me which is one of the lowest ratings we've ever given a movie I'm sorry

4:14I just I could not jive with it I could not get into it yes what Jeffrey said at the beginning it is a marvel it is it is regardless of you like pop pta Paul Thomas Anderson as a director you got to appreciate that he knows how to make a movie his films feel like films and something I love about him because this is now the fourth uh well the third movie we've watched for the podcast the fourth movie I've watched of his and like six months rewind six months ago I haven't even heard of this director now I know about more half of his movies and something you got to appreciate about Paul Thomas Anderson is all of his movies feel distinctly different yet have a thread of continuity through all of them a lot of filmmakers you know you feel like you've seen one of the movies you seen them all but with pta he's making new different movies that say different things with different characters different settings and they're all fresh and great so I really appreciate him as a director but this movie even though it was working even though it was technically getting doing everything correct I just don't know why it was made and I'm sure there's so many people out there

5:17that could write a billion long essay about how it's a beautiful representation of all the cucks out there and and you know how they're how they're being down in society but I just it wasn't for me wasn't for me that's so fair and so I guess you take issue with the fact that this movie was nominated for best picture best director best actor best supporting actress best original score and best costume design which of those did it win because it only won one I know this answer at one best score which I don't know when it went up against but I I appreciate that I think you had an amazing score did it win best score it didn't it didn't I'm lying at one best um costume design oh my goodness what a liar I nearly made that mistake too I could have sworn that it won best score if I just said it with confidence Jeffrey would've got along with me then we both look the idiot I had it in front of me on the Wikipedia page and so I would have corrected you but like it took it it would take a second right for me to process okay but yeah it won best costume design you feel that that was deserved I have a hard time with this award not hear me very

6:22carefully audience I think this award is very well deserved I think the work that goes into costume designing is an absolute art and it can make or break a film 100 percent it's not a category that I ever really pay attention to it's not something I usually care about it doesn't usually heavily impact my watching the movie again that doesn't make for doesn't mean that's not important I mean I thought most of the clothes they wore were ugly so there's that I not all of them but come on come on Jeffrey you gotta admit some of the things they put on look stupid oh I think some there were a few dresses near the beginning that looked straight out of snow white but but you know what I'm talking about some of them were beautiful I think my favorite one was at the really early on the movie when the two main characters kind of start getting their little collaboration on and he's like oh this lace I I I saved this lace from extermination and I'll put it on address and then she wore the dress with the pretty lace and that's the same type of lace that my grandma had royalties of and she'd put on the kitchen table when we'd eat rice and

7:25beans as kids but I thought that dress was very pretty I actually preferred the menswear I think that I would wear all of those outfits that he wore I would wear them I begged to differ I agree the men's wear mostly great do you remember his pajamas he was wearing what's the worst outfit I've ever seen in my entire life he was not trying and that definitely aided the scene for context folks she prepared a nice dinner for him and told everyone to get the hell out of Dodge his sisters like it listen you don't you don't want to do this my brother hates surprises no we're gonna do it anyway he's gonna like it sure enough he didn't like it and he didn't care and so of course he arrives onto the scene with his pajamas and then over it is like a vest and a jacket looks really messy it's like nice silk pajamas with a bright purple vest a jacket and then a scarf and none of it matched and he looked like out of like Willy Wonka or a pimp who was about to go to bed I actually you know what I watched the original Willy Wonka

8:30and the chocolate factory last night oh wow okay Willy Wonka has more drip than he does in that scene good but does Willy Wonka have more drip in general no okay okay very good so speaking of like Daniel Day Lewis he was nominated for best actor and manville who plays his sister was nominated for best supporting actress what do you think of those nominations okay even though I didn't love the movie in jype with it I still think every every one's performances was really solid obviously again Daniel Day Lewis he's just bringing a different level to his acting I think he's always in a enjoyment to watch he's a very method actor and I feel like you can really tal his little ticks his mannerisms they're so enjoyable obviously not enjoyable because he's completely asshole in this movie but I do think they're both deserving but especially I really liked his sister serial I think she did a great job that actress and so I think for both them be nominated I think it's totally totally fair I don't know what they lost to I will say it'd be pretty fricking

9:31awesome if Daniel Day Lewis did win it because this is the movie he retired on and he is currently the only male actor to have one three best lead actor performances at the Oscars so if he took this one he just want to double everyone because then the next star like everyone there's a lot of actors up to but if he had four he's would have been to go locked it in he's a legend he'd spent a year training with professional dress makers to be able to accurately portray a tailor from this era and he got to the point in his skill where he was able to recreate a very famous Balenciaga dress and by the way the founder of Balenciaga the fashion brand was in part what inspired this story Paul Thomas Anderson read a biography and that led him to the making of this movie and Reynolds fastidiousness and need for control was inspired by another fashion magnate by the name of James James white Charles James I can't tell you anything about him because I don't know much

10:39about American fashion but I was going to say you're going to have to forgive me I uh one of my words tonight I am wearing I'm wearing a shirt where's my camera I'm wearing a shirt that I got from working on a hallmark Christmas movie so clearly I'm a fashionable man but I mean yeah for Daniel thrifted and Jeffrey you have a beautiful pull on Jeffrey I every night before the podcast I have to throw out what to wear and sometimes I'm like I'm just going to wear a t-shirt too much effort to put on a put on a blazer but that's such a shame because I'm not to detract from what you're saying this is for the category iconic fashion and I wish I feel like I should have been come in my a game with my iconic fashion tonight instead of just my uh t-shirt I forgot that that was the category sometimes I forget the categories for the movies that we pick and it would be who've made to remember it so that I can talk about it more I I'm the same way I feel the same way but but what it comes to Daniel Day Lewis like something it's it's it's it's it's unique about him because often when you're watching a movie you don't want to think about them as actors you want to be immersed in the character and I am with Daniel Day Lewis because he's a method actor but

11:44something so great about him is it's so fun watching him in his roles because he's so distinct and distinguished between each role to watch him play this character and be like oh my gosh how is this the same guy that was in Lincoln versus how is this the same that guy that was in therapy blood like I'm just hearing all the voices and lines and and and accents and I'm just like wow so well trained like I love Leonardo caprio but he he doesn't play the same person but he's like the same guy in all of his movies I feel that I've always believed that acting can be a profound exercise in empathy if you approach it in the right way and I feel that he's approaching it in the right way he has to he has to literally step into the shoes of a person that is different from himself with circumstances far removed from his own and he has to imagine what is it like to live with this person's flaws with this person's insecurities what are their mannerisms how do they walk how do they move their hands or twitch their eyes and I think it has the potential to expand our

12:48sense of what it means to be human by giving us that touch point to others it sounds a lot like what we discussed last week in hamnet with the holy moment you know allowing roles and characters to let us experience things that we would not and in our own lives and and this movie got to experience what it would be like to be a horrible person exactly I mean to be fair um there will be blood he was a horrible person there oh yeah yeah it was so fun to watch I wish I was I wish I was Daniel Taylor was in there I'll be blood an oil magnet that owns a bowling alley in his house signed me up yeah yeah that has like a deadly feud with a pastor from a small town yeah and disowns his death child uh that child was on his technically you know what I mean he's every bit that man's child as um what's another analogy where I can't I can't think of an analogy but think of something really clever he is that man's child all that to be said you were

13:51talking about talk about Daniel day loose yes he was extremely he was probably the highlight of this movie uh I don't know how much this movie is pitched as a comedy but to me the best part of this movie was watching Daniel Day Lewis be a pathetic groveling little woe is me character I loved the scene where he's just like I can't remember what the context was but he's talking to his sister and his sister just had it was done with his shit and she's like I'm so done with you and he's like yeah but that person hurt my feelings and he was just like such a baby the whole movie and it was hilarious so I think first time around it would be very easy to watch this character and go oh like he is uh stern he is a control freak he's very fastidious he's very aloof and then upon my second watch of this movie I just saw him as a massive toddler right having tantrums left and right and I feel I feel like that plays into the themes of this movie in a way because he is

14:56constantly bringing up his mother and how important she is to him and what Alma does when she enters the scene she fills that niche that his mother left behind now he's being taken care of now he has someone that can handle him when he's having his tantrums who is willing to push back on him when he's having his tantrums and in his hour of need we'll take care of him selflessly or so it seems you hope she's not fulfilling the role too well as a mother or begins to beg the question of what was his relationship with his mother but that's the thing is when I rewatch this movie I couldn't help but notice edible undertones yeah underlying this movie his relationship with his mother she was taken too soon but his relationship was weird and it continued to grow weirder and weirder the more time he spent without her and that makes for a very complicated relationship between him and Alma because on the one hand she is playing a mother role and on the

15:58other hand he has sexual desires and so she scratches both itches and then you have to wonder if the wires get crossed between those feelings and an entirely new relationship is born one that perhaps can't even properly be called love what are you talking about that last that last scene in the movie the epitome of love the making out while he's vomiting see that's something interesting about this movie is there's a lot of camera movement in it that's very controlled we're following a lot of characters through hallways across rooms up staircases and Paul Thomas Anderson who was the cinematographer as well as the director of this movie filled rooms with smoke to add a sense of haziness to it and the music was so lush and orchestral and beautiful all these elements together create a feeling almost of a fairy tale romance but if this is a fairy tale it is a grim

17:03fairy tale because this is freaky it gets freaky it's also interesting because do you not to hijack the conversation but I mean this is something that someone who watched it didn't love it and was left a little bit confused you know what what I'll dive into I don't want to just tell the audience there's a bad movie don't watch it that you know go watch it if you want to I'm not I'm not going to suggest it but if you want to audience go for it but one of the reasons I can't suggest it and didn't like it is I just felt like it was aimless like at the end with the twist of revealing that he's weirdly into this kind of dominate tricks like wanting to be taken care of I'm a little boy like I'm a little baby boy take care of me mom like once that's revealed a lot of other things are painted in and like you can go back and mentally think oh a lot of things are clicking now but like that wasn't that twist at the end wasn't in my opinion the point of the movie so I just like felt like personally it was a little aimless and pointless I just remember thinking

18:05these are great actors and I do not care what their characters are saying or doing so I guess just for you Jeffrey what did you find the point of the movie being was it this complicated relationship what at the end of the day was was PTA saying hey you know what everyone has their own freak wager freak flag as long as you get someone to consent and go for it or was it not really even about that it wasn't like a what is love what is not like what was what was the point Jeffrey please what was the point of this movie make the two hours of 10 minutes I watched worth it yeah so this movie is definitely about a relationship and a complicated one at that and I find that of the Paul Thomas Anderson movies that I've seen that tends to be a trend in his work so there will be blood we have a very intense rivalry between the pastor and the oil magnate and punch drunk love we have two very messed up individuals who are finding love and comfort each other and here we see those things blended in a really interestingly weird way and I don't

19:08think that the movie is glorifying that relationship though I think that could be someone's take away what I saw in it was the story of two broken individuals two individuals with screws loose that are engaging in a relationship that I don't believe is sustainable because they're just not right to be in relationships because she's good she's asking for too much out of him she's expecting too much from him she wants a family she wants a lively social life he is the least social person on planet earth he wants to be kept to himself he is a home body he is a control he can't stand tiny sounds and she will eat with reckless abandon and she will intentionally push buttons but he likes being taken care of even if that's something that he tries to hide and she likes taking care of him and she likes being needed that's the more important aspect of their relationship and so I think that's what's being said we're being shown a relationship that

20:12is highly dysfunctional and it is working for now but the question is open as to whether this can last and whether it's good to last and I don't think it is good for it to last I do appreciate because you know my wife and I are watching this and we're both like the only way they can redeem this movie is by killing one of the two characters or maybe both but by the end of the movie I was kind of like honestly this is I take it back this would be boring this would be the most obvious thing to do oh I'm a begrudged angry bitter wife who my husband doesn't care about me so I'm going to poison with some mushrooms that like we're like the most obvious smoking gun and all of film history of like there's some mushrooms in this book that are poisonous don't eat them so by the end of the movie when she's cooking that omelette with the mushrooms I love like you said the reckless abandonment like earlier when she poisoned some she grinds the mushrooms up fine puts in his tea just a little bit and now she like cuts up five huge mushrooms throws them in a pan with a bunch of butter that he hates and then makes an omelette super obvious and so you're

21:13like oh even though I'm getting the thing that I wanted like her murdering him so there's some type of satisfying ending I don't it actually seems very hollow but then when you find out that's not what it is it definitely reshapes the entire movie and I do think it's a better ending for it even though it's weird even though I don't know what it's saying I do think it is a more interesting more compelling ending than murder because I think murder it's just been done a million times and it just wouldn't have been very interesting I mean sometimes what a movie says isn't so much a statement as it is a presentation of what a certain dynamic looks like like this is what dysfunction looks like in this context is this a dysfunction that you can notice in your own life or tendencies that you might have noticed in others what are ways that you can relate or what are ways in which you like can't relate these are things that these relationships these movies these stories call to mind and force us to consider that's a great question Jeffrey what does this

22:17relationship relate to you I mean hey you're the one that picked the movie you gotta you gotta be ready to face the hard questions now you're right you're right I think that we can all be particular at times and we can all be selfish and we can all want to be pampered and we all want to be needed and we are seeing those insecurities and those needs amped up to 11 amped up to an unhealthy degree in these people and so perhaps I can't see myself fully in Reynolds or Alma but I can notice that they're human and I can recognize my humanity in them as different as we are what a good answer now yeah thank you I appreciate that well what I could see in them is I feel like when I get sick I'm a big baby granted I rarely get sick but when I do I like to be taken care of uh you know granted I hope my wife's not poisoning me with mushrooms that would be a real bummer

23:19to find out um so that that's what I relate to I'm a little bit of a baby like Daniel they Lewis in this movie yeah I mean who doesn't like being taken care of when they're sick right someone showing that they care showing that they're willing to stand by her side through thick and thin in her case she's causing that and they like that dynamic and and so he's okay with her poison am and back to the point of her intentionally pressing buttons in that scene where she makes the omelet she's also pouring the tea into his cup very loudly for very long time in a very intentional way and she does that throughout the movie she knows what gets on his nerves like she finds it out but once she's found it out she likes making him do or experience things that he doesn't like and she likes making him like it okay well now I have to ask you this question in regards to that when do you think the director hasn't made it intentional for us to glean this information

24:24when do you think our alma figured out that he was into this and when do you think our main character of Daniel they Lewis was playing figured out that this was what she was what she was doing because the first time she did anything it seems like she was maybe wanting to kill him or at the bare minimum she's like I'm sick and tired of you never giving me any of your time I'm going to put you in bed and I'm going to take care of you and it didn't seem like a sexual thing it just seemed more like I want to be a part of your life and then when she proposed or the next morning she was flabbergasted so like when do you think like like like right then in the movie when he ate the ate the omelette we think okay he's he's gonna die this is that she murdered him and then he says kiss me before I get sick and it's like what what so when do you think they started to like figure each other out and was at the very beginning I'd be crazy I think that she knew what she was doing that first time that she poisoned him when he collapsed on the ground full

25:25of sickness she wasn't all that surprised she didn't seem upset at all when he didn't die and she was very possessive over him right uh spurning cereal making hurtly the room while staying with him and shunning a doctor's visit which if she were generally concerned with him like she would not be so hesitant to invite a doctor into their space but for her it's very much I want to be needed right now and when he proposes maybe this is the rewatch talking I didn't read that as being flabbergasted I read that as her intentionally keeping him in suspense because he gets antsy he gets antsy and he's like what are you are you what are you saying are you gonna say no and I think she enjoys that she likes make it him squirm yeah that's exactly it I could see that oh okay well then so then the question still that makes sense I think that that that like that track to my brain but what about him when do you think he realized like

26:27maybe because everything was led up to a boiling point and we think she's gonna murder him you know they get married and Daniel Deleuze's character is talking to a sister cereal and he's like I can't have it anymore she's horrible she's ruining everything she's ruining her funked way in this house and all my over here is it and so now we think oh she's pissed off she's like I was wrong to marry this guy he's the worst I'm gonna kill him um even part of me on the on on on at the end of the movie was like oh because there's this there's this voyeurism almost where he likes so I guess it's not voyeurism but I don't know what it would be called like he likes to see him in charge around everyone else everyone else he needs to be the man in charge and he almost likes letting other people think that he's shaming her but he knows and she knows what's actually the power dynamic so it's like a weird power dynamic of how they like to display things so I wonder if there was a world in which he chewed her out in front of her sister and he didn't know an air quotations but he actually did but so I'm just curious at like what point did he know his life wasn't in danger and she was

27:30just making him sick to take care of him I think that he finds out I think he finally gets it when she's in the kitchen very brazenly making him poisoned onwards and she's looking him dead in the eye no hatred there just a blank stare of expectation you're going to eat this and I think he finds that very appealing and I think it clicks is okay I was sick before those are clearly poisoned mushrooms she's making me sick again I know what to expect and I like what I expect and when it comes to when she saw through his veil I think that was a lot earlier than you would think because from the very beginning she calls him out on his bluff he wants to be a tough guy but they're sitting in front of the fireplace and she says I don't think

28:31you're as strong as you think you are and he's defensive but she stands her ground and maybe it's not to the point where oh like I know immediately that you're a kinky guy but there is something about Alma that sees who he is and is willing to push back on him even when he is so brazen and rude and hurtful to her and that's something that I said like earlier why like maybe this isn't my cup of tea you got to respect Paul Thomas Anderson there's very few directors that are able to recontextualize a movie with a new piece of information the best in our generation is Christopher Nolan just think of like inception but us talking here I'm happy I'm really happy you brought that up I completely forgot until this until this moment I loved anal day Lewis there's a moment of his acting that I remember thinking that was bad that that that just fundamentally felt that line deliberately felt horrible and it was that exact scene where they just went on their first date they're sitting in their cozy den and again this movie plays with expectations you think Paul Daniel Day Lewis is a big strong

29:36arrogant man who knows what he wants and Alma is the weak supple female that's going to get steam rolled over him and and she says the line like Jeffrey just said I see what you really are you're not a big strong man and Daniel Day Lewis says I am a big strong man just like that very very brazen no subtlety I was like whoa that feels weird but now watch out the context of like he is a child and she is poking at him at a child like you're not a big strong boy you're a little boy he's responding as if he's a kid because he is a weird edipence complex and so on that rewatch I'm like whoa that is phenomenal acting that's phenomenal directing she wasn't because you think she's saying like like the average romance movie oh I'm a female and I see that you're a tender sweet caring man on the inside and this big strong facade is just for the other people no she was saying you're a kinky little shit let's have fun and and she was testing him right there and so that I will say

30:38that's awesome I love the recontextualization of that moment and there are other moments another moment going back to at the very end where she poisons him this great moment where they're staring at each other and he's slowly eating the omelette and you can tell she has all the power he feels like a little child being forced into something reverse again at the very beginning of the movie when he first takes her out on a date she's eating dinner and he's just staring at her and it feels like again another movie this this strong man this this weak damsel woman he's just staring like wow what beauty you have while eating it feels so generic but then when we flip it on its head it just makes the whole movie better so it just makes everything much less contrived and like I said like Paul Thomas Anderson he didn't do the normal thing he didn't just kill kill the husband with mushrooms there were so much subverting our expectations with how they played out the relationship that now in the conversation again I'm not going to change this maybe I'll change it from a 2.4 to a 2.8 but this is never going to be my favorite film but I think

31:39that recontextualization of their relationship really well done and regardless of what you think it takes a skillful director to do that for sure I mean they're very first meeting when she's taking the order for him she leaves on his ticket for a hungry boy she writes for a hungry boy I don't even I think I recall a heart but I might be Nelson Mandela yeah Mandela affecting it that's the Mandela isn't that like the president of Africa or something South yeah South Africa famous figure I think that's where the effect comes from the name oh does it really comes from Nelson Mandela I'm sure okay I might be completely wrong and if I am correct me in the comments folks send us an angry email give us any engagement at all we are screaming and begging for it yeah we're here to talk about movies not famous politicians or scientific mumbo jumbo but speaking of actors one that we haven't discussed much is Leslie Manville who plays Cyril Reynolds sister Daniel they lose his sister she was nominated for Best Supporting Actress which when I saw

32:45that I thought that was very interesting but I I see it she brought a different energy into that room when for the first time he is making a dress for Alma there is a tension essential tension in the air between them it's that sexuality without the sex that we were discussing in double indemnity how movies were able to communicate something that had like sexual undertones without any of the graphic content and it felt intimate and soft and gentle and then Cyril enters the room to take those measurements and the atmosphere completely changes everything is tense everything is stiff constrained and even Reynolds is saying to Alma hey like stand normally as you were before and she can't she can't because Cyril's there and Cyril is a presence but what would you have to say about that I I loved her I I thought her character might have been the most interesting now granted

33:49and a rediscussion of the whole out of his complex and their weird sexual thing I do think there's a lot of subtlety and complexity to our two main characters but I really like the sister there's I love characters that have a depth of complexity to them the net that's never that's never delved into like it's great when you have a complicated main character and then we find out why they're complicated we get into all of it but there's just something about her that made me so interested in her character and why she was the way she was but we like we just don't get answers like if she's just as weird and messed up as her brother like and again finding out how the because you've got to know the sister is aware of his weird weird kinky edipus complex type of thing uh she says to Alma that she is his type right um as far as the build goes and then when we see the ghost of his mother in his room while he's sick it's very similar build yeah yeah so yeah you'd definitely like you definitely know that she she's in on the the knowledge of this weird edipus thing and so it's it's more it begs the question like why did she stick around she puts up

34:54this bull crap but then it's like is she just as messed up as he is does she you also get the the pull in tug like kind of how her two main characters have this give and take we hate each other we love each other we hate each other she has that same vibe with her own brother so again if he has some like weird messed up relationship with his mother i i wouldn't be surprised it's not just surprised like the senior talked about earlier where Alma throws a birthday party and he comes home his first question is he says where serial and he says it like three or four times like he's almost about start panicking there's a weird sense where serial acts more like a mother to our main character than his mother does and it's almost like this is mother act as a weird sexual muse and then his sister becomes the mother and everything's just kind of warped um but i all that to be said i thought she played her role magnificently there's an air of mystery how does she fit into the picture of this weird family um and and so i really enjoyed her and i like that we didn't have to over explain her character she at the end of the day was a mystery like at times we saw her really putting up

35:58walls between Alma and her brother and then at times she's like i love Alma she's the best girl you've had in the house so far she's my favorite i just think that what we are given of her right is conducive to so much interesting speculation as to not only her history but her brother's history i get the sense that they had a difficult upbringing after the mother died and that they had only each other to rely on and that led to a lot of codependency issues she never got married he never married and it's clear that they're the most comfortable with each other for the longest time right before anyone before Alma entered the picture and changed the dynamic um and even to the very end i think that there's a sense in which Reynolds is far more comfortable talking to zero as his peer and his sister than he is with Alma where the dynamic is this interesting unequal

36:59equality i think the best way can describe their dynamic um if you take the sexuality out of him and his mother and him and his sister and all that dynamics uh have you seen the BBC um Sherlock Holmes with Benedict commonbatch i have not no oh well first off absolutely need to watch it's hands down the best in my opinion i don't know interpretation but it's my favorite rendition of Sherlock it's it's phenomenal but um the depiction of Sherlock and how Sherlock is this kind of whiny child but man child is what i think they refer to him and specifically his relationship with his older brother minecoff and that reminds me of Cyril and Daniel Day Lewis's character they're kind of they're kind of weird power play tug of war and so anyone that's seen that series that's kind of the vibe i get with less sex yeah wait wait in Sherlock he doesn't have sex with his brother does he uh we could only wait yeah there's less sex in the Sherlock and there's more

38:01weird sexual tension in the phantom thread is what i'm saying yeah no that makes sense to me yeah i mean think about the phenomenon of boy moms which you see parodyed online all the time where the mother is obsessed with their male child and it's almost an unhealthy connection that she seems to have with him and is very possessive over him and uh is very suspicious of any girlfriends or partners that he might have and she's vying to be the sole female influence in his life Cyril feels like a boy mom but for her brother now this is the important segment of the hormone podcast where we take a moment and we ask Jeffrey is your mom a boy mom now okay i mean she has only boys she has four boys she is so i literally a boy mom she is quite literally a boy mom but not in the sense that i've described in the sense that is often parodyed okay well this

39:02concludes the section of the hormone podcast where we ask Jeffrey if his mom is a boy mom thank you this is gonna be like a recurring segment like every episode anytime you suggest kinky movies i will ask if your parents or relatives are related to the weird kinkyness in the movie to really just get into the mind of Jeffrey Nichols and understand the psychology of him it's crazy like i feel like this whole episode is making it seem as though i picked it because it's kinky and not because of the fashion guys i swear i swear you're not just an interesting movie Jeffrey we have spent 45 minutes talking about the edipus complex and two minutes about the fashion well i mean i don't know much about fashion to be fair this category was your suggestion that's true that is true but my suggestion my movie pick for fashion was not weird and sexual it was the grandpa to pest hotel and that was a great movie yes well what well Jeffrey i mocked some of the dresses earlier what's your what's your favorite outfit and the well i guess you said you like the guys outfits more yeah i just whenever i see a nice well tailored men suit i just imagine myself in it and i have

40:07so much fun with that that's right that's how i feel about dresses i mean you got it man okay with which being yet you put on a dress it's just one piece of article not to put on pages and shirts yeah you go to the urinal you just lift it up there's a lot of fabric to lift though but i'm like there's so much room down there you could just like piss your and and imagine your free ball in it you got no wonder on you could just like piss and you know there's so much room underneath you because you got a big ballroom dress on no one's gonna know i mean i don't know if it catches the fabric it might start to smell i mean you know he's got to be skillful with it i think i would appreciate it for the breeze yes i agree uh so there you go there's our fashion corner of the pants are correct pissing in the dresses with that being said Nathaniel have i already mentioned that this is a movie that Paul Thomas Anderson was the cinematographer for whereas a lot of his movies prior were depaid by Robert Ellsworth not includes punch drunk love and there will be blood

41:15do you notice differences between these movies i feel the other movies i've seen of his work uh specifically punch drunk love but then definitely one battle after another and then even to some degree um there will be blood there's a lot more chaoticness in the cinematography but i think at the end of the day that's more story than just cinematography i think the story follows more unhinged chaotic characters punch drunk love with the anger filled depression Adam Sandler running around punching holes and walls one battle after another uh leanard a caprio desperately chasing after his daughter and then uh there will be blood Daniel Day Lewis you know i'll drink up your milkshake crazy oil magnet uh and you know you could say the same like oh well uh phantom thread follows this weird artour fashion man but like at the end of the the the the the mute i think

42:17the answer your question the music is the most different in phantom thread it's the most orchestrative it's the most elegant and beautiful and soft and granted there are moments of tension and confusion that it creates but then of the day it's light it's airy it's succinct and i think the cinematography has to match that one of the other movies the cinematography and the music are all very dissonance very disjointed very staccato very in your face about it very abrupt and i feel like the cinematography once again reflects that so i don't personally i cannot tell differences in style i can tell differences in story and and i guess that's what i have to say about it i think that's fair this movie had to do with characters that cared a lot about aesthetic beauty and gracefulness and prettiness for lack of a better word and so i think the cinematography and the editing and the

43:17music reflects that so the camera is often very controlled and the shots are carefully composed but there is movement and that movement is graceful almost ballerina ask we can imagine ladies in ballroom gowns waltzing across a wide dance floor it begs the question then i wonder why pta didn't bring on his kind of life partner in the sense of cinematographer like did he realize oh this my cinematographer uses amazing he's so great at this style this movie isn't that was it a schedule and conflict that pta think hey i know what the style is and i'm going to do it because i have such a clear vision of it like i wonder why he didn't hire him on i am not sure but and this is pure speculation don't take my word for it i feel like there must have been some kind of falling out just because robbert elsewiss had some harsh things to say concerning the cinematography

44:25in this movie so in 2020 elsewitt publicly criticized Anderson's cinematography saying in an interview he just threw a lot of smoke in the room which he would never let me do he never let me smoke a set i enjoyed the film but if i shot that movie i would not be happy with it ending up looking like it did that's all i feel like that's not something you would say about like a friend that that's fair and it's also leads that because um this was in 2017 and then in 2021 was liquor spizza and then in 2025 was one battle after another for the two most recent movies that pt directed and neither of them was that dp both dp's was a michael bauman bauman and so i do wonder if there was a falling out because if these is a scheduling conflict he would have been brought back but with those harsh words combined with that he hasn't worked with them since yeah i wonder if he's moving on you know of course it's all speculation but um that makes the most sense right now and it's sad to maybe see because again we don't know but one of the most special i feel like connections collaborations you have is a director and a dp

45:33i love the dp's i've worked with it's such a rewarding connection um collaborations a better word i also uh when you have a good director producer collaboration i love that as well then obviously good director a uh first ad but but something special about the director and uh the the cinematographer if you're not on good terms with them then your life is going to be hellish on set yeah i cannot imagine coming to set and having to argue with my cinematographer every single day i mean it can be done if you don't like the dp the dp doesn't like you as long as you are both consummate professionals but if you are inclined to dislike each other then you're not going to give each other a lot of leeway when it comes to suggestions right if the dp has an idea that he's really stoked about and

46:34yeah and and also i should probably we should probably clarify because to dp and some circles of people it's a very derogative term uh dp in the film world means director photographer and so that's the person who is in charge of the camera i didn't realize it was negative in certain circles uh it's it's it's it is a term in the pornographic world if you're not aware oh oh i just think it's funny when people say dp well it just goes to show that i'm pure of heart that jeffery is an absolute um saint amongst men truly and i've corrupted him with this knowledge i chose this movie for completely innocent reasons that's my proof yeah yeah no mom boy has negative all right jeffery if you have to make a slur out of dp what would it be do not answer that delightful person there we go but i just think in my time of making films my collaborations with my dp has been one of the most cherished collaborations because it's just it's just it's just

47:38the director is the person who brings the visual creative continuity idea of the movie all the different aspects and then i feel like the most next important person to some degree is the dp because they literally are then making the vision in the head to the screen and again there's a million other people are helping making that happen but i think the cinematographer slash dps one most important people so you got to have it you got to have a good clap there for sure now and i haven't worked with as many dps but i can i can say that those that i have worked with i have very much enjoyed and i can't imagine working with someone that i i mean i can you have doing the industry working people you don't like but you want the key collaborators to be on the same page with that being said have we discussed everything there is to discuss no have we discussed everything that we can think of we definitely discuss the weirdness of the epic complex

48:40um you know what we should discuss for a moment i loved i loved all the old ladies and white robe sowing in a basement super cute liked it a lot he treated with them with respect he did he did he treats his employees with respect he didn't sexualize a single one effect yeah the only client he didn't respect was that one lady that was um oh i thought that was so sad yeah that the really really rich lady who he had to like make a wedding dress for who clearly like has such low self esteem and think she's so ugly and think it's wasted her own wedding that they have to like carry oh that that is the moment that maybe hey ulma which made me that's the moments of kids movies a little interesting because there's this rich rich woman who apparently like finances the house that um woodcock works out of and she shows up she's like you got to do my wedding dress and i want you to come to my wedding and he's like oh fine he does it they show up to the wedding and she's a drunk mess and daily they lose character and then ulma just view her

49:44as a pathetic pig like wow how how the world could she wear your dress and to me i'm like oh she's so clearly like hates herself and it's such low self for steam and it's her wedding day she got wasted and that's get carried up to her hotel room by her like husband and son and then ulma shows up and strips her naked of her dress in her own bed while drunken wasted and and i just hated ulma from that moment on i was like okay she's clearly not like the innocent i just want to love you type of person and so that from that scene on i was a little bunched in her character and where she was gonna go yeah and her fiance uh there's a plot point something that was briefly mentioned is that he sold visas to jews during the war which facilitated their escape from Nazi controlled territories which i don't know if that's selfish because he's selling them or if that's good because he is making them available i i don't know how i didn't know how that was being received in the room but there was discussion yeah uh the reporters and the audience

50:48members were whispering to each other all like the jews the jews the sold visas to the jews and that's actually literally what it sounded like it it didn't sound like real conversation they just kept on saying the word Jew over and over just the word Jew yeah so i i like that scene i was sad she never really came back but my heart went out of her it hurt to her and it made ulma and Daniel they lose character that much more hateable yeah yeah she's just a nice lady and she's down on the luck and maybe she's not treating the dress with care but of course humans take priority over dresses and these people don't prioritize people over dresses or at least there's a line yeah it's also the first scene we see uh Reynolds character be physical with ulma now two things can be true at once because we're trying to re-contextualize and make every single character moment of an enepist thing but at the end of the day you don't want a character's motivation to be one

51:52thing where no one person has one motivation i i live eat and breathe for this one exact reason we're complex human beings so we want our characters to be complex human beings so could this moment have been this or that maybe but what i find interesting is after ulma busts into the room and strips the strong woman of the dress Reynolds is like he makes out with her in the street and then i think it's the next scene he takes her into the bedroom where they supposedly have sex and you think oh because he's an artor he's someone who loves his work and ulma is willing to stand up for his work it could be that again two things could be true or is it that ulma is authoritative that she is taking charge that he is too child like he has this demeanor of i'm in charge but when that old old maid answers the door and is like you cannot come in here Reynolds doesn't disobey her he stays ulma busts through that door so again maybe it's true that he's kind of sexually aroused in the sense of ooh you're you're like the dominatrix in charge mom but also it could be true that he was

52:52aroused in the sense of hey you're willing to protect what i also hold dear so again two things can be true at once but just another same recontextualized yeah but another thing too is until that point at the very end when he finds out that she's been poisoning him i don't know how conscious he was of how he felt sexually about their dynamic oh really that it was a man i don't know i think that there were just wires that were crossed of again like he has sexual desires and he also needs a mother figure so why not and then he finds it both in in one person and the result is very interesting i would agree that maybe he's not the most conscious of it but i would also say like it's probably something that's subconsciously pushing him forward which again makes him more interesting of course i don't think in that moment he is thinking like oh yeah actually this like dominatrix controlling mom type i think it's probably the same thing that we think the

53:53audience oh he's aroused because she's protecting his work that's probably what he's thinking but it is again the peeling back of him figuring out his kink this whole movie was just watching an old dude figure out what his kink is you know what great work it's all in the subtext all in the subtext or this this movie we can call it the mom text okay that was a bad joke cut it out not because it's inappropriate because it's stupid what a weird episode we've said that word countless times but it truly is and i know for a fact that i'm never showing my parents this i know for a fact i'm emailing this to jeffrey's parents after jeffrey posted this episode caption jeffrey made this for you uh goodness because here's a thing i think that the whole edible complex uh as a theory in psychology has been debunked debunked Freud came up with it and Freud was the father of modern psychology and if he's the father of modern psychology you can imagine that a lot of developments have been made since then but i think that this movie was exploring an interesting take on it yeah i would agree like again my final takeaways is not a

54:57movie for me i felt a little aimless i loved the recontextualization of their weird sexual dynamic that made the movie for me that being said holy moment what's your holy moment Nathaniel man jeffrey i won't lie this afternoon i sat down to do my homework to do the research to write my holy moment to write my real and i was like i don't freaking know and so i literally just wrote two words usually it's like a paragraph long i wrote the score however which is true we did not talk enough about the score the score was phenomenal i really think especially with pta i was expecting something just so hyper and something so in your face something that like drug you into the room like with like we talked about when we were you punch drum club last season how the score almost overcasted the character's dialogue because the score created its own character and so that's what i was expecting because again that's to some degree and one bad after another and there will be blood and did this score make itself prominent did it make itself known absolutely it did not sit in the background another thing a little bit pta he understands how important music is to films

56:01and he utilizes that but he doesn't utilize it the same way in every single movie so while this this score was in the forefront uh there was almost no scene that didn't have music now that is not to say it's always good to a movie's better if there's no no quiet moments you should always have music that's not always true but somehow he pulled off always having music tension uh sexual delightful light happy sad and it just worked the entire time the score was magnificent i loved it but i would say my holy moment after this episode is definitely because i'm such a big fan of it re-contextualizing all of their interactions to have this weird pseudo subtextual eduppets complex sexual give and take between our two main characters that was a lot of fun and also pretty funny like on on on a on a rethinking about these scenes i i think it just makes the the movie goofier which i'm a fan of for sure no it's a great holy moment um shout out to johnny greenwood who did the score by the way i'd sometimes forget to mention the names of the composers and

57:03they're such a huge part of what makes a movie a movie so i could be fun fact and and again this is another way i could be wrong i think johnny greenwood was the lead guitarist for radio head is that oh wow yeah that's true which is weird when you think lead guitarist for radio head i don't i don't necessarily think that be a beautiful score that we heard in this movie yeah i didn't i didn't realize that until you mentioned it and i looked it up sure enough jeffery's face is having like what the heck moment yeah i mean radio head it's such a different style of music but i mean that just goes to show he's a talented musician he's not pigeonholed into a certain genre he knows music through and through yeah like pta when you truly know a medium of art i feel like you can use it in all calibers and and and different ways like obviously you have what you specialize in or what you enjoy the most but if you really understand your medium you can you can bend and break it and change it i think that's fun i would say that my holy moment

58:06similar to yours one is the setups and payoffs i feel like that's my holy moment for a lot of these movies just the way that they lay threads and tie them together at the end in ways that we don't expect but looking back on it makes complete total sense and it couldn't have been any other way i also think that the characters themselves and this is where you might disagree with me i know that you weren't quite taken with these characters and they're not good people i don't like the people but i found them very interesting especially as embodied by these particular actors they felt real as messy as they were i would agree that they felt very real they felt lived it like real like real people and what i want out of a movie like this is real i want people that approximate as best as they can like real people so that i can understand people better and expands my view of what it means to be human right and that's what this movie accomplished

59:08for me in some some way i'm going to give this movie a 3.5 i will i will change my 2.4 because Jeffrey has answered the question what the heck was this point and kind of get more meaning to a 2.9 you know and i will say to that one person that commented uh when i wife and i went to watch this movie we saw a comment and it was like most rewatchable movie both time and i was like halfway through the movie so what the heck are they talking about after talking i was like okay i could definitely understand and join it a lot more picking up on the subtleties of these characters and and i do think it would make for a more regional rewatch that being said i'm not going to rewatch this movie no thank you that's perfectly fair and i think that's a respectable score too folks i think we have come to the end but not the end because we have a wheel to spin isn't that right Nathaniel it is it is it's a 50.50 and i'm selfish i want sky high to be the last movie that we record for this season for me so i really want this uh next episode to be

1:00:10Emmanuel which is a documentary for Vegas pick uh every season we have six categories and a category that doesn't change we change four categories every season but Vegas pick and dealer's choice and Vega is our dear friend who used to be on the podcast but left and he has a really weird wonky taste in movies so we always ask him to pick a movie for us so without further ado i'm going to spend this wheel and pray to god it's Emmanuel and here we go all right it's come on stop stop stop yeah 50 50 baby god loves me next week we'll be watching a manual it's a documentary don't really know what it's about uh i'm sure Vega is going to make us put on our our tour hats and really discuss a good film that has meaning and purpose i believe it's about a church shooting that happened that was racially motivated and either Charleston or Charlotte and it's talking about the response of the counter against to this killing because they responded with grace and forgiveness and love or at least for the most part okay that's cool man

1:01:11Vegas always making us have in the best ways i love it he's always making us have the hardest conversations on the podcast which i i think is good i think as artists we should not shy away from from hard content to talk about whether it be something real like a documentary or something like jeffries edifice complex we got to dive into the real art out there for sure i'm excited for this one we don't do documentaries all that much and i know that we typically wouldn't choose documentaries ourselves maybe one day maybe one season we'll have a documentary category but until then a manual did you watch um in film school we had to watch uh exit to the gift shop i think in british cinema that was a great documentary i love that i would rewatch for that for the podcast did you have to watch that and going through film school no no what's it called exit through the gift shop exit through the gift shop we didn't watch that well maybe we'll have to watch it if not just watch on your own sometime uh highly recommend it really enjoyed it well now we've come to the actual end um but we're going to miss you we're going to miss you we'll be here next week though stay tuned listen to our next episode uh you can catch it on spotifying youtube and you can

1:02:14catch our reels on youtube instagram tick tock uh if you like what you see share drop a like comment on it and send us an email send your suggestions for the next season it's a common soon it's come a fast and with that i bid you stay holy folks