Peter McCormack: Drugs, Bitcoin & A Broken Britain

Hello, and welcome to Block Party.

My name's Atlas Carey.

I'm the co-founder of iSharminoBlockchain.com.

And for this episode, we have the very respectable

Peter McCormack, who is an OG in the crypto space,

one of the founders of what Bitcoin did

at the Peter McCormack show, a podcaster of the owner

of real Bedford FC, a serial entrepreneur much more.

I'm really excited because I'm reverse interviewing

a very successful podcaster today.

We have a little tradition on our podcast.

We always need to know how did you get in the crypto

in the first place, what was sort of your rabbit hole

entry point?

I was buying cocaine on this road.

I can't hide it.

I'm free straight forward.

Yeah, so a friend of mine was like, Pete,

there's this website called the Silk Road

where you can buy coke and it's really good.

And I'm like, what?

And he's like, yeah, it's called the Silk Road

is on the dark web.

I was like, what the fuck are you on about?

What's a dark web?

Yeah, what's a dark web?

And they're like, oh, it's just like anonymous internet,

but you need this single Bitcoin.

I was like, what?

It's like, yeah, it's like digital anonymous money

and you can, I was like, what the fuck are you on about?

Anyways, he's like, sent me an article.

I think it was from the Gorker or Wide or something.

So I read it.

I was like, this sounds amazing.

So I went on local Bitcoins.

What year was this, by the way?

2000, I think it's 2013.

Oh, okay, so really?

It's like the late 2000.

Got local Bitcoins.

We could just spend a whole episode

just talking about that product.

That was a really interesting platform

when the early day is basically like a peer-to-peer marketplace.

Yeah, that's 80 pounds.

I remember it is, but 80 pounds from my first Bitcoin.

And you stuff to go on local Bitcoins

and you would find a seller of Bitcoin

and you would agree a price

and then you would commit to making the transfer,

but you stuff to send a photo of yourself

would like your name written on it and like,

I'm an honest internet user.

I'm just, so anyway, so I got my Bitcoin

and I transferred it to that funny string address

in the Silk Road and I went on and purchased

and contraband and then my love affair with the Silk Road.

I think there's probably about six, seven months.

I was gonna say it lasted until the Silk Road blew up

which took me to do an incredible story

and one which really hasn't really been told it completely

and I think they're gonna make the movie someday

and it'll just be insane.

And Tim Draper's got through my Bitcoin.

Does he?

Yeah, because they confiscated it

and then he purchased them back off the US auction.

Yeah, Tim, give me back my Bitcoin.

I'll contact him after this.

Well, what a buy by him.

But there's actually an important story to this

in that my habit got like quite serious

and to the point where I ended up in hospital

and it was the Silk Road forums

where I knew I had a problem.

I knew I was doing too much to my drugs

and the Silk Road forums were a good place to go

and actually speak to other people and get support

and I did and I stopped taking drugs

and that was 13 years ago but what happened was

my mom got sick and late 2016 she was dying from cancer

and we wanted to treat her with cannabis oil.

It was too late, she passed away

but at the time my dad was, I was explaining to him

that this is where we purchased it.

There's this website.

It wasn't Silk Road then it was like sheep marketplace

or bought a Bitcoin, purchased the cannabis oil

and after month passed it was a little bit of Bitcoin left.

So I was like, dad, I'll go and sell it and get you the money.

And then when I was on there

I noticed there was this other thing called aetherium

and I was like, well, what the hell was that?

Yeah, so I looked it up but I'd quit work.

I'd been working and advertising and I'd had enough.

I'd taken a year off work.

So I just started reading about Ethereum

and then I get in about Bitcoin and I was like,

well, maybe this is a thing.

Like this blockchain revolution.

I started just reading relentlessly about all crypto.

I'm in Bitcoin and now but it was all crypto at the time.

I bought some Bitcoin, I bought aetherium at nine bucks

and bought a bunch of that sold it

and like a couple of hundred thinking,

you're like, I'm a genius, I'm a genius.

I traded that year, I traded,

I had about 30,000 pounds left to my name

and I traded that up by the end of 2017 to like 1.2 million.

Oh my God.

Yeah, I was a genius.

Yeah.

And then, and then it all went up and down.

I tell you what happened.

So I took my kids with my dad to a place called Center Pals

for Christmas and I had like this 1.2 million

of all these different shitcoins of Bitcoin.

And my dad was like, dude,

you should just sell some, you could sell half of it,

you could buy four apartments, you could rent them out.

There's older people have been trying to pass down

some wisdom to us for a long time.

And most of the time, we're not ready to hear it yet.

Especially if you're kind of like punk, you know,

you're like, oh, this is old shit.

I was listening to that.

I was ready.

I was ready.

I had my laptop open.

I was ready to sell, having a glass of wine.

My daughter was like four years old.

She runs over to me because daddy jumps on me,

hits my glass of wine, goes over my laptop,

fries my laptop.

So I'm like,

story sucks.

Yeah, so I'm like screw this.

I'll, you'll just do it later.

Yeah, I do it later.

And then like didn't get round to the end of January,

that January 18, we had the crash.

And I think by March, I felt like,

because I had to, all the shitcoins went like

to almost nothing, you fire selling them.

And then I had to pay my tax bill.

And by, I feel like it was about March April.

I was down to about 60K.

And I was like, what?

Yeah, no, I'd already started the podcast.

I started, I think I recorded the first episode in November 17.

Okay.

I think I did three before Christmas.

Didn't really take it seriously.

And then in that new year, I was like,

I'm going to take this seriously.

This is what I'm going to do.

I'm going to be a podcaster.

And you were really early to that trend.

And I think one of the things that's been so impressive

with your work is just how consistent persistent it's been.

It's like, you know,

there are very few people that stick it out and anything.

And then to be early and then, you know,

really at the moment where the whole story is

sort of coming together is fascinating.

So what Bitcoin did is become one of the most popular,

most well-known crypto podcasts,

arguably sort of the first one in a lot of ways.

Well, Lourishin, Lourishin had really led the way.

There was a couple of others,

but she was the first big podcaster.

Yeah.

You know, I interviewed her early

and I was looking up to her as like,

you know, like she was the queen of crypto,

slash Bitcoin, but costed.

You've interviewed hundreds of people looking back on it.

Like, which interview was the most,

I would say like eye-opening for you or which one

do you look back on and go, God,

dust that one off again and sort of revisit that.

Well, like the one that we stood out to me was my,

I think it was my 10th interview

where I interviewed Lynn Olbrich, which is,

oh yeah, Russell Bricks.

Russell Bricks mother who was the co,

or the founder of the Silk Road

and ended up being incarcerated

and was recently pardoned by President Trump.

Yeah, so I, I reached out to her.

It was my 10th interview.

I recorded it in a hotel room in Austin, Texas.

And that was a cool story to go seek out

because a lot of people, you know,

comfortable even exploring that concept

or maybe even talking with family members

who had incredible stories to tell.

Well, it was my intro in.

I reached out to her.

We did it.

And I think it was, I think it was on Ross's birthday.

It was either her birthday or Ross's birthday

that we did it.

I can't remember which,

but I think it was her birthday the next day

and I bought her some flowers and we sat down.

We did the interview.

And I hadn't really taken like,

the first few podcasts I did with with traders

about making money and nothing was really serious.

And then after that one, I was like,

it really hit me.

I was like, oh, this is a serious story.

Someone's in prison for the rest of their life.

Yeah, pretty much we know.

I think you had one appeal left, which was squash.

But I said, this is serious.

This is important stuff.

And so, and then after that interview,

I was like, actually, I do want to take this serious.

I want to make this my career.

I want, this is what I want to do.

Like I like sitting across from somebody

and having a conversation.

I like the challenge of trying to get somebody

to tell a story.

I don't actually like being interviewed myself.

So this is weird, because I don't think I'm,

I don't think I make for a good interview,

but I think I'm okay at interviewing people.

So I was like, that really hit me in

and I think about that a lot.

If I hadn't done that interview,

where would the podcast have gone?

But that one was a really special

and important one for me.

And then obviously then I did the bouquetly one

few years later, which was just a real,

to be interviewed.

A real world leader.

Dude, I was like, I started a podcast

because I was buying drugs.

And here I am.

And then here I am interviewing the leader of a country

in the presidential palace.

And I remember getting on the plane

on the way home.

I was like, ah, why is going on there?

But yeah, it's all surreal.

So you start off, you know, entrepreneurial background,

advertising agency, then you start this podcast.

And now you're an owner of a football club.

Talk to us a little bit about that transition.

And especially kind of the investments you've started

to make at a very local level.

You know, it's really interesting to me

because we can't fix the big stuff in my view

until you mend the little things.

And it's like, you know, put your mask on

before you help others.

Make your bed in the morning,

tidy your own space.

Like if you expect other things

in the whole universe to get better,

like you're, you know, a real participant

in your own environment.

So talk to us about that.

Yeah, painfully, I've learned the opposite of what you've just said.

You can't really do the local stuff

to you fix a big stuff, actually.

Oh, you think it's the other way around.

Yeah.

So the football team really is just ADHD.

It's just like waking up one day and going,

why is our town?

I've got a team in the football league

and how do you do it?

And we should be the book uncle and club and vuck it.

Let's go do it.

Just like literally ADHD.

Are you, do you have diagnosed ADHD or are you?

No, but it's like, right?

Shiny objects syndrome.

Yeah, shiny objects syndrome.

The little boy wants to own a football club.

I can't sleep.

I'm going to buy a nightclub and then open a coffee shop

and like run for prime minister, like a classic ADHD.

And then if you look at me as a kid running around as a told terror,

I was like, obviously I'd ADHD.

Doesn't need dinos and doesn't need medicated.

It's just a reality.

And so I tried to do things locally.

I said I'll be a little fun to help towner to kids to football club,

board a nightclub, a bar, try to do things locally in the town.

And I just realized like when I tried to do good things in the town,

everything is treated politically.

So if I put private security in a town that's full of crackheads

and alcoholics who are making the lives a misery of certain people,

the whole left of Bedford came after me.

It's like, what gives you the right to put privacy

into the street because it's private?

And I'm within the law.

Well, what authority do you have?

I have the authority of the law.

Well, you're just a right wing Nazi.

And then people trying to cancel me.

It's like hold up, hold up a second.

I create jobs.

I give money away.

I help families and kids.

I do a lot of stuff in the community.

You don't hate what I do.

Your ideology hates who you think I am.

And so anyway, that was one part.

And then the other part was like,

it's just so hard to make money.

I mean, it's so hard.

Yeah.

And it's because our country is absolutely and utterly fucked.

And I was like, all of this is waste of time.

I've sold the nightclub.

I've paused the fund.

I've stopped a lot of local work doing it.

All I care now is about national restoration

because if we're changing the course

of the bigger thing, it's like, I can create

a little local business and transport locally.

But really, if you're pushing against the machinery

of the state, which is so pernicious,

like, what are you really actually achieving?

I'm trying to do one small thing here.

But if you can go centrally and dismantle

this machinery of the state,

you'll create an opportunity for everyone.

So if I'm struggling with a cafe to make money,

I can, wow, wow, work to make that cafe

and try and make it like, break even,

make a little bit of profit.

It's been that much time.

It's hard.

Yeah.

But if I work on helping someone

to dismantle the machinery of the state,

so taxes come down, bureaucracy comes down.

I help every business in the country

because I don't do a nightclub

or a coffee shop to make money.

I'm already, like, I can already retire.

I don't mean that, like, there's a flex.

I just, I can choose my time.

So why work on one coffee shop,

when I can work on every coffee shop in the country?

Right.

So I'd rather now, so what I've started to say,

just the fact that there's local stuff,

I will do anything to support any party in the country

that says it wants to fix the economic situation,

fix the bureaucracy and just dismantle this

offensively huge state that we have at the moment,

which is destroying everything.

And then I'm supporting every coffee shop in the country.

Yeah.

I'll talk a little bit more about this politics, actually.

But your political journey was kind of interesting

because I remember at one point,

you weren't as libertarian, I think.

And so there's that old quote I forget it was,

like if you're in your 20s and you're not liberal,

then you have no heart.

And if you're in your 30s and not conservative,

you have no brains or something like that.

But what was your sort of arc around that?

And like, what were the things that sort of crystallized,

maybe a change of heart and mind as it relates

to how you think about politics?

Yeah, well, NVK said to me,

the false way to become a libertarian is run a business.

Also true, it's like get a job and start paying taxes

in your concepts of how tax revenues

are efficiently used changed dramatically.

And I think one of the funniest quotes I always love,

I think it was Ronald Reagan that said,

it was like, I'm here from the government

and I'm here to help.

Are the scariest words in the English language?

And you don't really feel it until you try

and create wealth, create a business

and run it sustainably at any level,

whether it's a small coffee shop, a bodega.

I have nothing but sympathy and empathy

for people that put a business into the world.

It's so hard.

Well, it makes me question also democracy itself,

like the stupid part of it.

But what is a, like we could all be nice and kind

and say, yeah, you know, 16 year olds should be able to vote.

It's just terrible idea to let 16 year olds vote.

And I'm not even sure if it's a good idea

to let 18 year olds vote.

You're young, you're impressionable,

you face too many social pressures.

Your brains aren't fully developed.

I mean, really, what point should you have a vote

if you live off the state?

Because if you live off the state,

then you're going to vote for more state.

And we know in every scenario and democratic rule,

the state always takes more and more centralised

and more and more becomes more pernicious.

So, you know, who should vote?

Did the forefathers have it right

that you should own property to vote?

Should you only vote if you don't work for the government?

Like to create the, I don't know,

I question about this a lot, but my own journey was,

normal guy sort of dad got to work

as an aircraft engineer, his mum got to work

as a nurse, pay their taxes,

and saw the government was this group of people

that did a job that ran the country.

I started a big point.

I believe that they were responsible for it.

They were supposed to be the adults in the room.

Look at those guys.

And then you really, you get to a point where you realise,

I'm smart and then all these people,

I'm not maybe not as intelligent,

I might not have the university degree that they have,

or the, you're telling me you didn't good or expert.

I dropped out of university,

but I'm smarter than these people.

And so I started a podcast about Bitcoin

and just run into this wall of libertarians,

and like you stayed as a car, why do you believe this?

And the problem was, is making a podcast,

I lived in a bubble, I would get on a plane,

go to a city in the US, meet Danny,

would rent an Airbnb, would make 15 shows,

I'd go home, run my football team.

I wasn't really exposed to this.

I was exposed to other people's opinions of the state,

but not the state myself.

And then I've come back to Bedford

and tried to start businesses

and just seen stupid people get away from it.

And I ran a red tape and it's ridiculous.

Like opening a coffee shop,

all the different rules and regulations,

safety and all the sorts of stuff.

HR, I mean, we've created this like human resources

industrial complex, which basically favours the employee

over the employer, which it shouldn't be the case.

The best thing for a shit employee is to be sacked and told,

you've been fired because you are shit at your job.

Go and get yourself, you can get your act together.

But now we've created this large surface area

of employment rights, where it just gets grifted,

where lawyers team up with some,

like if you haven't followed this ridiculous long process,

they can sit on your payroll for ages,

you're sucking money out of the business, ruining it.

Like the whole thing's just a joke.

There's so many bits like that.

You just, I just came to the realization

that the state itself is a cancer on the voter.

It takes more and it expects you to have less.

Taxes go up, inflation goes up,

house prices go up, wages never keep up.

People are fundamentally stupid.

They, there's this great book by Frederick Bastiac

called The Law, where he talks about great book.

He's a great book, but the very basic concept

that everyone should get into their head

is that the state should only defend life,

liberty and property.

Because the minute it gets into redistribution,

it inverts the morality of the state,

it suddenly says, well, we're this party, we believe that.

Those while over there are evil,

we should take their money and give it to you.

Legalizing confiscation.

Yeah, legalizing confiscation and look,

people go, well, what happens if you have no toes?

It's like, okay, fine.

I'll go with what Eric Moore here says.

I just want the state to get a little bit smaller

every year, just like 1%, maybe 5%.

But it's an interesting time now for the country

because we've had all this political fragmentation

because we have new parties forming

on a nearly monthly basis now.

And getting serious, getting serious ground,

I mean, Rupert Lose Restores,

already polling at 7%, it's got 100,000 members,

it was announced two weeks ago,

reform didn't exist four, five years ago,

and now leading the polls.

The Green Party always like a side bet for the weirdos.

But all of a sudden, it's found sort of a magnanimous leader

and they're doing great social media work

and I think this fragmentation is fascinating

because the old power systems are sitting around going,

oh, what happened, what's going on here?

Did we lose the blood, have we lost control

or are these just, you know, sort of...

But the signal here is that people are unhappy.

Yeah.

People are unhappy on the left

and people are unhappy on the right.

And they're largely unhappy about the same things.

So both are equally unhappy with the economic situation.

Right.

People, the right are unhappy that they're paying higher taxes

and the left are unhappy of wealth disparity.

But it's kind of the same thing

because it's happening because we...

Right, of course, the economy isn't doing well,

there's no wealth redistribute.

But it's worth its distribution, right?

The middle class is getting...

Absolutely bound.

Bone by inflation, right?

They get destroyed.

Like the wage compression from minimum wage

to lower middle class,

like there's a slither of a gap between the two.

And so the middle class is getting crushed by inflation, right?

And then the, the, the, the,

the lefties and the socialists are complaining about wealth disparity

but that wealth disparity is coming also from inflation.

So it's kind, but, but their answers to this

are completely different.

Yeah. And that's what you do about it.

And that's what you do about it.

And so we're at this really interesting time.

In three years time, the country's going to have to choose,

are we going to go left wing socialist

or are we going to go right wing conservative?

The socialist is going to feel communist to this lot.

The conservative is going to feel fascist to this lot.

But really, the country's going to have to make a choice

and they were going to be a coalition of people on the left

and the coalition of people on the right.

And it will, I fear, I really fear for the country

because both are going to be ugly.

Socialism is ugly.

Everything in the country will get much worse.

We will end up like that.

We will be, it was said it to me.

I think it was, but I was like, no, it's courtesy of it.

We're going to be Argentina with nooks.

But the conservative approach is also going to be ugly

because people are going to have to face things

that may not have the stump for,

which is very strict immigration policies.

There will be sizable amounts of what is racism

is going to come with that.

Because to the very right of the conservatives

are the ethnats, okay?

And they're going to vote for whoever

the most right wing party is.

So amongst trying to deal with an immigration problem,

the left is going to accuse us

of not being racist and fascist.

Right, it's not paint the whole thing.

Yeah, paint the whole thing.

And some of it will look racist.

And some of it will look fascist.

Because there are people here saying,

hold on, I just want my fucking country back.

And so that's going to be ugly.

The economic, to fix the economic situation

would be like with Malaysia,

he said, this is going to be painful.

Poverty will go up, okay?

We will, it's like, it's temporarily though.

And in Chile's case, it took a year,

but actually on most of the main metrics in Argentina,

you're now seeing GDP expansion, reduction in debt,

more tax revenue coming into,

at a lower tax burden,

and poverty has actually been reduced.

Now, they did have to take a pain pill,

and he had to slash all kinds of government bureaucracies

in order to get to that point.

But what was interesting to me is,

in Argentina, which has a long history

of devouring its own economy,

and they should be one of the richest countries

in the world, by the way.

Yes, they have all the natural resources

and all the advantages.

And I think so that the young people actually

were ready for the change.

They said, please, we're ready to take a five-year

but pain pill of some kind,

knowing that if we can sort of reset the social contract here,

allow some meritocracy back in,

make this a place where people can invest and thrive

and create wealth, then there's some opportunity

that I feel like I can commit the rest of my life

to building on.

How do we get that in the UK as possible?

What we have to do is say,

you have to have a party or a leader

who is willing to make really tough decisions,

but you need a mandate.

This is the problem with reform at the moment,

is as they've got closer to power,

they've wanted to protect the idea

that they're going to win.

And in doing so, they've made some very significant mistakes,

all the defections from the Tories.

I mean, how fucking stupid are you?

These are the architects of Fader.

I mean, I'm embracing them as arguably problematic

for the form.

I mean, there's a problem with the leadership

as opposed to the people voting for them.

It's a problem with anybody

who isn't willing to be honest,

who puts career and party ahead of country.

We want to have a strong country

because when we're a strong country,

we can help other countries.

We're a weak country,

and everyone's saying get rid of all this kind of like aid

we give to other countries.

But there's a strong country for it.

Kind of for it.

But we could afford it as a strong country

with a strong economy.

You know, altruism is a function of prosperity.

Yeah, okay.

We're not prosperous at the moment.

And so we have to rebuild our country.

And yes, that may mean some people

who want to come and work and live here can't

because we can't afford to support them.

But we can do more as a prosperous country.

We can be more altruistic.

So we need a mandate, a strong mandate

for things that people find uncomfortable.

We need enough people with fuck you

might need to come out and break cover

and say like I support this.

And then I think the country has a chance

to restore itself.

So who's on your dance card as like the dark horses

of political aspiration or the kind of leaders

that you think can help provide this air cover

and also break through.

You mentioned Rupert Lowe.

Well, Rupert Lowe is kind of an interesting candidate.

Without like a Jeremy Clarkson or someone else.

Hey, Jeremy Clarkson, JK Rowling.

Like successful sensible people.

But really it just comes down to do we have a lead.

Like Malay is what made Argentina change.

Bukali is what made El Salvador change.

Even Trump to some extent.

And look, there's plenty to criticize Trump on.

Guys, he goes ridiculous.

Like he at least gave people the belief

that something different is possible

and is trying to do some different things.

Like he's like closed the border, right?

Done something there.

And we're seeing things like we're seeing movement

across Europe.

I mean, Europeans are sick of just turning this continent

into a shithole.

But I can name people really.

It is Peter McCormack on that list.

No, do you know what?

It's fine, because people have said

would you become an MP.

And I don't think I don't think I should be

for a couple of reasons.

Like I have a platform that some people watch and listen to.

And it's important for me to be objective.

For a long time, when I started to have concerns about reform,

I wouldn't criticize them because they would come

on the podcast.

Yeah, for a year Nigel Faraj had promised come on the podcast.

It'll be next Monday, if that.

I was like, and I said to my son who I make the show with,

I was like, I'm censoring myself,

waiting to get that interview.

And that's not the right way today.

That's not you, right?

And so there will come a time where RuPaul will say

something that I disagree with, and I want to criticize it,

because I want to influence for the best,

if I think he's doing something wrong.

But at the same time, I'm willing to support the party.

Like if they want a crypto slash Bitcoin policy,

I would bring together the people in the UK,

you've read any news, et cetera, Suzy Wards,

and all the smartest people that we know in the country.

And I would help them write a sensible policy,

which would be no-cat gains on Bitcoin Hill for a year.

So Bitcoin has come and lived here.

They would teleport billions of dollars of wealth

back to the country, you know,

get rid of all those stupid banking regulations,

make it a place where essentially the Bitcoin slash crypto hub

of Europe, like I would happily help with that.

But I would do that for any party.

And I am voting in the last three elections.

And at the moment, I'm holding my vote.

But if RuPaul does what I think he will do,

and he builds that mandate, he has my full support.

But look, Isaac Pananski came out and said,

we're going to stop deficit spending,

we're going to boost the economy,

we're going to like all the sensible things that are required.

I'd vote for him, he's not going to do it,

because he's a Marxist and he's a moron.

But like if he did, I would look at, I don't.

People sometimes treat politics like football teams,

and they shouldn't.

There's no blind loyalty.

Who is going to put in a set of policies

that will repair this country?

And that would have my vocal support,

my vote, and my time, I'll put my time into it.

I'm happy to do it.

So you've mentioned a few of these world leaders,

and there's a famous quote by Bill Clinton.

He goes, it's the economy's stupid.

And he really understood that, which was at the end of the day,

the price of food, the price of utilities, gas,

and then feeling like there's some optimism about your future,

those are the conditions to create a winning mandate broadly.

And so the twisting the little dials really

doesn't do much, but I think what you're arguing for

is that there's sort of an opportunity here

for someone to paint a picture about how do we build

and restore the country back to sensible economics,

sound economics.

And one of the things I think it's interesting

about digital currencies, specifically Bitcoin,

and then crypto, is that we can sort of dismantle

some of the most damaging aspects of financial engineering

that cause a lot of downstream negative impacts

to create terrible incentives, create massive amounts

of inflation, which is a tax on everybody,

allows for the funding of all of these.

It's not a tax on the rich.

It's, so it's socialism for the rich.

It, all those things.

So what would the most competitive, like digital asset,

crypto regimes sort of look like in your mind's eye?

And one of the things I find super interesting

about this question is that almost every single

prime minister in this country that is no longer

prime minister, once out of office,

has spoken very positively about digital assets, crypto,

Bitcoin, they go, I think it's really interesting.

We should explore more of it.

We want the UK to be a leader in this space

where we envision ourselves as, you know,

the historical home of finance and innovation.

But for some reason when they're in power,

they don't seem to be inviting that innovation

and don't seem to actually be inviting

those entrepreneurs here.

And to me, this is a crazy, crazy mistake

because last year, 10,000 millionaires left the UK.

16,000?

16, it's way worse then.

Okay, 16,000 millionaires left the UK

and burdening the rest of the country

with a greater debt burden than everything else.

And those people took their wealth,

they're not coming back, they sold their homes, all of it.

How do you invite the next migrant of wealth capital

back to the UK to build here?

And interestingly, crypto adopters and Bitcoin users

are globally mobile.

And I think they're looking for a home.

A lot of them have displaced to Dubai.

I don't think they really want to necessarily live in Dubai

or raise families.

They're temporarily there because they're looking

for a place where they can call their homes.

So what would this policy envelope look like?

You know, if you were to imagine designing one.

Gosh, well, hopefully wouldn't be me writing it

because this, you in collaboration,

we're all leading economists.

I don't have ideas, but there are people

who understand economics better than me

and probably rather someone like Lynn Alden

and came across the pond and wrote it all for us.

But look, the uncomfortable truth for Bitcoin people

is that a proper function in economy and government

means there's no requirement for Bitcoin.

Labrate on that.

Well, if you have a proper function in economy

and you can save your money in the bank

and receive an interest rate

because capital is doing what it's meant to do,

then you don't need Bitcoin, okay?

Bitcoin is primary function is to protect your wealth

from currency to basement.

But the currency's not being debased.

Why do you need Bitcoin?

Like, safety is said this.

He said, the biggest threat to Bitcoin is a good state.

Now, let's just be honest, we're never gonna have a perfect state,

even if I was living in Argentina, I'd still want Bitcoin.

But before I ever think about Bitcoin or crypto,

I just think about economic policy.

We just need to get the fuck out of the way

of builders and entrepreneurs

and we need to reward risk takers.

That the reward now is putting your money into the markets.

It's not building the businesses too difficult.

I've just stopped doing it and closing down businesses.

I've seen that and it's a huge problem

to like basically sort of deny entrepreneurs

the optimism and the belief in themselves.

And so people just give up.

They don't start their next thing or worse,

they just give the money to some, you know,

institution to manage on their half.

You weigh up a risk of reward.

I was gonna open this piece of place,

found the location, had the design done

and it was gonna cost me like 400K to open it.

I was like, okay, it's 400K to open it

and I need to put some money in for cash flow.

Okay, the economy isn't great.

I've got all this regulation to follow.

I mean, beyond just the business rates tax,

which is a tax you pay before you make any money,

there's other taxes on the business.

The cost of energy is a tax on a business

in this country at the moment.

We've got a moron as our in charge of energy anyway.

The bureaucracy is a tax on the business.

Accounting, HR, legal.

The amount of time I spend now,

I reckon I'm spending two through to three days

in emails dealing with the bureaucracy of my businesses

at the moment.

They're a tax on the business.

Instead of taking care of customers

and investing more in your businesses.

And like we have these stupid minimum wages

that are just too high,

which are making it illegal to employ people

at a rate they're happy to work for.

Well, my first job, I worked at Millground

and it was a Saturday morning

and I would do, I think I would do like five hours

and I'd get seven pound 50.

And I had two paper rounds after that

then I worked in a shop for two pound 30 an hour.

Then I worked in a factory,

I used to put inserts in magazines

and I'd get paid, I had three pounds a week an hour

and then another factory would put handles on umbrellas.

I didn't get 12.0% holidays for every day of work.

I didn't have pension contributions,

I didn't have employment right.

And I had a job.

You got paid, I didn't turn out fuck off.

And now we've put all this,

these layers of employment rights and taxes

and minimum wages in the way of making a business successful.

Add on to the top of that all those taxes on a business

which are time and financial taxes.

If somehow I manage to make any money,

I'm giving it most of it back to the government as well.

So fuck off.

Yeah, the end of all that you're taxing a very high rate.

Just cannot be bothered, why bother?

So, and I know there's other people like me.

So we've got the balance wrong now, why take risk?

And so my starting point would be

get the fuck out of the way of entrepreneurs.

Like, let capital, capital is like water.

Right, it flows.

Let it flow into this country

and let people use it and create business.

So that's the first thing I would do.

And we haven't even talked about AI

and we should talk about that as well

because there's not as much fucking matter in 10 years.

But I would do, that's the first thing I would do.

And I would wean people off the welfare state.

And let people go through that period of panic.

We'll be painful and it will seem mean and horrible.

But there are people who are not working at the moment

who can have to get off their asses and go and work.

So that's where I start.

But I would also make this the center

of Bitcoin crypto in Europe, possibly the wild.

I mean, just let's look at the regulations across the world.

What is the most pro business crypto regulation

we can have in the UK?

I'll just do that.

I would you not.

And then there's a couple of things.

All the millionaires who have left.

They've got a cliff now for returning in that.

If they return within the next five years,

well, they have to pay their taxes

that they've missed for the last five years.

So they're not coming back for five years.

You're gonna have to just have a moratorium on that.

Say anyone who comes back, forget about that.

I think you do a giant tax holiday.

You do zero cap gains on crypto trading forever by the way.

I think you do that.

And you would migrate an incredible amount of wealth to the UK.

Builders, investors, creators, and much more.

And I think that's a super interesting policy to do.

Well, you look at the moment,

we're scaring off the wealth creators

and the rich people, we've demonized them.

Yeah, just any successful entrepreneur, frankly,

like you look at some of the young ones

that have actually broken through

through all against all the obstacles.

And one of the first things they do is leave the country.

Yeah, cool.

Also because, and they're being driven out

because the media here and some of the apparatus

of the government just caused them all these terrible names.

And they pride so hard.

And then what do they like, why bother?

But that thing about defeating the apparatus of the state,

you're not just defeating the state itself.

You're defeating its henchmen,

which is the people who work in the media,

the influential people in society and culture,

the voters who all either through their own stupidity

or envy or maliciousness attacks these people.

So you've got to defeat the argument as well.

But you've got to get these people back.

Because at the moment, we're scaring these people off.

And then we're importing millions of people

who are independent.

Yeah, it's got to be independent on the state.

But when you're doing that, the guy gets up at five,

six in the morning, goes to work and works, eight,

nine hour a day.

You're saying to him, without you don't get to vote for this,

you have to go now today and you have to work harder,

you have to expect less,

because we're going to take some of your money

and give it to somebody else.

And it's not mean, it's about creating strong foundations.

And we're weakening the foundations,

because it doesn't benefit anybody.

So I would start with that.

I would reverse this trend.

I would say we want the smartest,

ambitious people to stay here or come back

and the people with the money, like celebrate wealth.

Like if you are, you're never going to have a better life

be an envious of somebody else who's made money.

You're never going to have a better life demonizing

somebody who makes money.

Like I hate this term, they say,

oh, that person's a tax avoider.

I'm, excuse me, what, you just,

you think they're money's yours?

Like that's their money.

Like it's a privilege to tax somebody.

Like it's a privilege to, you don't know,

they don't know you anything.

Oh, well, they inherited it.

So their parents were for it.

Their parents probably taught them how to use it.

You've inherited something.

Like you've inherited living in this country.

You weren't born in Somali or Sudan.

You were born in the UK, a great country.

So you've inherited something.

Life isn't fair.

It's just the way it is.

So I would, I would be fixing all those things.

I would be encouraging us to have a state

which focuses on entrepreneurship and rewarding people,

give young people, this is the biggest bugbearer.

If you've got kids, okay, I've got two kids, right?

Every parent listened to this will know.

And I agree with I say this.

You know that your, your goal is to create a better

well for your kids.

You want to leave them with money

and wisdom and opportunity.

Like that's, that's all I think of them.

Equal or more advantages than you had.

Yeah.

Firstly, if you came from a tough lot.

And so like with my kids, I don't just try

and arm them with like wisdom and ideas

and make a sensible decisions.

I try and arm them for the future.

It's like, okay, there's going to be an inheritance.

This is how your job is to be kind with it,

to grow it, and to do it, and leave more for your kids.

Like, so, so we always have this like,

innate responsibility to our own kids that we care about.

But we really have a collective responsibility

for all the kids in this country.

And anybody who votes for a party that deficits bends

and is happy with inflationary economics

is actively telling you,

I want my kids to go without in the future

for stuff I want now.

Every person who votes for a party is a selfish fuck.

It's sorry, votes for a party

who will not deal with the

punicious levels of inflation we have in this country

is a selfish fuck.

If you vote for the labor party, you're selfish fuck.

You're saying to your own kids,

you're going to have less than the future

because I want stuff now.

Like, but if you said to them in that moment,

say they're there with their kids.

Two parents, two kids, there's two meals on the table.

What are you going to do?

My kids will leave, I'll go without.

Okay.

Leaders eat less, right?

Yeah, leaders eat less.

But what they do when they're voting is the opposite of that.

They go in, yeah.

I want a bigger house.

You can't have a house to your 40.

And I don't understand how people don't understand this.

You vote for the green party, you're doing the same.

You vote for the Lib Dems, you're doing the same.

Vote for the conservatives, you're doing the same.

You might be doing the same with reform.

This is what we're doing with the economy.

We're going, oh yeah, but let's just borrow a bit more now.

Like we'll be good in the future.

The economy will be good in the future.

And where are we now?

Like, we've got an economy which is stagnant.

People talk a little bit about the market actually

because maybe a bit about the crypto market

but then also maybe the broader tech equities

and then we'll switch to AI

because I think that's got to be a topic we kind of conclude with.

You've been following the digital asset space

to help you become a millionaire.

It helped you become not a millionaire

and that somewhere in between,

when you think about where we are

in the digital asset or Bitcoin land,

do you still believe in the four year cycle?

Do you think 2026 will be a strong year or not?

What sort of, I know you're not a trader,

but you're following this.

So I'm curious to hear what your perspectives are.

So it's funny because my son's a Bitcoin and now.

And you know, he's done well.

He stacks ads, he's done pretty well.

And this is his first bear market and he is struggling.

And I'm like, this is Daddy's fourth bear market.

Yeah, he's like, he's like down like,

I don't know, whatever.

I don't want to expose it,

but like a very meaningful amount of money for him.

And I'm there laughing,

I do a bit of four times like whatever, sit around.

I always want to believe the four year cycle is over

and the four year cycle keeps coming back.

And so maybe it's just market dynamics.

We're going to have this for a long time back.

I don't really think about it too much.

I just think we're in a multi decade process

of separated money and state.

I always want to believe the four year cycle is over

and the four year cycle keeps coming back.

We're here.

He would go off on a long tirade

about how relevant and important that is.

So just quickly,

we've separated these big concepts from the state.

We separated language from state.

We separated religion from state.

And his whole thing would be,

there's this important argument that if we want to

really enshrine values of liberty

and protect human agency,

you have to separate money from state.

Yeah.

And so that's maybe what this big transition really is all about

is a decentralized, unsensurable method

of moving value around the world across time and space

using a technical fabric for doing it.

That's a good thing.

And there was the biggest Bitcoin was trying to do.

There was the biggest failure of the founding fathers.

They recognized so much, but they just did not,

and they kind of knew.

They kind of knew.

But they didn't deal with the head on.

And what has happened is the anti-federalists

have been proven right because the incentives

of the money over time, it's so hard.

Cause like, I never knew there's some crisis,

there's some war you have to find.

There's some political change

and it always comes down to,

you know, if we control the purse, we can dilute the purse.

You have to understand that humans will always print money

cause it's the easy way, right?

They'll always increase the debt.

You just have to take it away.

Bitcoin takes that away.

And so like, I'm here for the mission

that probably outlives me at that,

at some point we separate money as state

and we look back in the history of humankind

and we're like, what was that?

Fucking weird money tree experiment at that time.

But also my thoughts actually started

evolve a lot with AI as well.

Yeah, let's talk a little bit about that.

Well, so there's some big concepts

we have to kind of get our head around in that,

right now we're clearly in a phase of acceleration.

Like the ship we're seeing week on week now

is getting crazy.

And let's not bother with the whole is gonna kill us all

cause whatever, who knows, it made it made all.

But it's more that we are facing this.

Are you, would you see an AI optimist

or an AI skeptic or we're not really sure?

Just not really sure, I can give you a ball in the bear case.

Yeah.

So it's not going away.

Yeah, it's here.

It's here.

The incentives are such that nobody,

you know, I'm gonna get all anthropic and an XAI

and open AI and they're not gonna come together

and go in the Chinese around the time.

Yeah, this self-sconadangers, we should all put,

there's a race.

There's a race to AGI, that's it, there's a reality

and we don't know what that means, so whatever.

But in that process, what is very clear

is we go and have a huge and significant job displacement.

If you do, if your job involves operating a screen,

I mean, your job's hooked in the next few years.

And so, and I don't really know exactly what it means.

My expectation is there's gonna be a massive increase

in productivity, which is gonna create other new jobs,

but the problem will be the debt.

So that, I haven't squared that circle.

Probably leaves massive inflation.

But there is, Elon Musk said,

if you haven't got a pension, don't worry.

Some points of saving, in 10 years time,

you're not gonna need it,

because we're gonna be in the age of abundance.

And so, I think the biggest problem we're going to need

to solve is, in the, what do we do in the age of abundance?

Money's our peck in order, right?

Money decides, which town we live in, which neighborhood,

which where we do our shop in, what food we,

what car we drive.

In an age of abundance, when any thing can be produced

for anyone, at any scale,

that had almost no cost.

Which is what Elon's sort of very optimistically projecting

is essentially what's called a post-scarcity economy.

Basically, we have unlimited food,

and unlimited pharmaceuticals,

and unlimited entertainment options,

and energy, abundance, and all the things

that sort of allow people to stop this crazy rat race

constantly of acquiring more things.

Exactly, maybe not that happens, but.

But there's phases to this, right?

What happens in that environment?

Scream based jobs are going to go.

If you work in the creative industry,

if you're an employer, if you're an accountant,

you hate, all of these jobs are going to go very quickly.

A lot of people, where there's like six,

relatively successful families,

where like both the husband and wife earn 150,000 pounds each,

could both lose their job within the next couple of years,

and there's no replacement.

That, you know, they might get replaced

by a 26 year old who knows every AI model

and who can just replace their jobs.

Or they might survive because they're so good

at their job and they've learned the AI,

but there's going to be huge job displacement,

and I think it's going to be super volatile.

I'm expecting a house in crash,

because more gauges are based on 30 year careers.

Like some people don't even know

if they're going to have a job in two to three years.

How's a market in the UK is fucked at the moment anyway?

So I'm expecting a lot of volatility,

and how does a state deal with that?

Do they just pay their way out of it properly,

so we're going to see massive inflation?

It's going to be volatile.

I don't think it's going to be pretty nice.

And then after that, we've got the robotics phase.

Elon Musk is what stop production of two of his cars

to build robotics and assume we're going to have robots

build a robot.

So once we have robots build a robots

and we have AI and unlimited energy,

we're in the age of abundance.

How do you create a peck in order in a society

where money has lost meaning?

How do you choose who lives where and who gets what house?

That is, I can't square that circle at the moment

because money does that.

And then I've got another thought

which I'm trying to wrestle with is that

most likely, the money of the future is Bitcoin

because of AI.

AI's can't open bank accounts.

They can't do KYC, AMO.

They can't open a Barclays account.

No, and even if you wanted to use stablecoins,

that presents challenges.

So we've seen AI's now open in Bitcoin

while it's in Bain for Services with Bitcoin.

And so most likely, as we have this rapid growth of agents

and they need a currency to transact with,

it's probably going to be Bitcoin.

And so we go out, we move out five, 10 years

and the majority of the economy is AI and AI agents

using Bitcoin as the currency.

This is a whole new, weird world we're going into.

So I think more about,

I don't think Bitcoin is my personal retirement plan anymore

or whatever, I've got everything I need in life,

which isn't much.

Yes, a nice house, a couple of holidays a year

and do my shopping.

And so that's the world we need to,

we all are attention needs to now be

on these two complementary technologies,

which is AI, which is going to lead us to the age of abundance

and Bitcoin, which is going to be the currency,

which allows the AI economy to run.

And so I think a lot about that.

And so I don't care about what the price is now.

I don't care if it's 65K or 120K.

Obviously, I care more when it's 120K

because it's like, it's fun.

I think we're in an optimistic point of view,

and everything you've said,

sort of talked about at the very beginning

of our conversation,

what do you really care about?

What do you love about yourself?

And what do you enjoy doing?

And I think maybe in this era of abundance,

which if we can peacefully transition to it

without major geopolitical conflict,

I think it's pretty interesting

because maybe in that future world,

the people that used to have these six figure jobs,

working these ridiculous extractive silly functions

that are now done by a piece of software,

maybe they can go pursue that violin,

you know, learning how to play the violin

that they never had time to do,

or maybe painting or whatever.

And it's like,

and someone said something interesting to me the other day,

which was like, you know,

no one tunes in to watch a supercomputer,

play another super computer in chess.

No, we don't give a shit about that.

What's really interesting is watching humans

achieve mastery over challenging

or specific tasks or things.

And I think there's this kind of like potential future world

where we're actually all doing all kinds

of really thoughtful, creative, cool, personal, creative things

and we're all achieving our human potential.

Well, though, because we're not spending our time

toiling and becoming an HR specialist or an accountant

or, you know, an onboarding specialist

or, you know, doing a back office compliance function

or whatever it is,

because a lot of people do their jobs

because they have to stop because they love that thing.

Or it's a stepping stone to where they think they need to be.

It's kind of an interesting question,

which is, you know,

what would you do in an era of abundance

in a post-gear city economy?

Well, I think there will be a period of the human economy

in that, in an era of robots and AI and automation,

people will seek our authenticity.

I agree with that.

Yeah.

A lot of in-person stuff, more concerts,

like, I think, you know, that kind of thing.

Yeah.

It can be really, really beautiful.

There's a restaurant I go to regularly

called La Tarezza in Bedford.

It's run by this Albanian guy now.

So he just bought my nightclub off me.

Great guy.

I love it.

It's just a great little restaurant.

The chef's great.

And I was talking to him about this

and he was like, yeah, well, you'll get robots soon.

You can do what I do.

I said, do you know what the difference is?

Is that you cook with a soul?

Yeah.

And you may make mistakes.

But like, you made that food with your hands

and I want to eat that food.

I don't want the robot that gets it perfect every time

because it'll taste the same every time.

I want those differences.

They just slight differences.

I want to see you and talk to you.

I want to see you cooking now.

I want to see that human experience.

He's like, yeah, but you say that.

I mean, well, what about brain search?

I said, well, brain searcher is different.

I want the robot doing it because it's got a higher accuracy rate.

I don't want a higher accuracy rate with food.

I want soul.

And so I think we'll have this human, because we will become

such a product society.

Because we will see so much increase in GDP

from the productivity of AI, the distribution of money

means people will be able to buy other things.

Like, I don't know, you can get your hair cut more often

because you've got more money or you can go out to more concerts

or you'll just seek out those authentic experience.

So I think the human economy will be quite big

and it cannot be replaced by humans.

So I think we can have all these transitional phases.

I mean, we'll just guess and write.

I mean, it could be that we get the matrix.

We could get ready player one.

We could get Terminator.

I actually, by the way, I talked about this

in a podcast recently.

I think we're in the civil war part of Terminator.

And does it have an scene if, besides the killer robot,

the civil war part being which part?

Well, so you don't see really see,

they've never really covered in the movie.

They've never told the civil war.

What they've told is, before robots, robot,

the robot coming back and telling you where you end up.

But the civil war for me in robots and AI is,

you're seeing that right now.

Have you seen, has it seed camp?

The new video thing where you see all these videos?

Oh, yeah, well, they're seed, seed dance.

Seed dance or whatever it is.

Is it seed dance?

And you see like suddenly you've got Brad Pitt

and Tom Cruise in a car, it's fucking amazing, right?

And Hollywood is going to reject AI, and it will lose.

Okay, but it's going to reject AI.

You're going to have strikes, and that's going to happen.

And you're also, you're going to get people

attack robots.

You will.

They'll be, like we have it with the,

you lose cameras here in London, the ones that track you.

People are going to attack them,

take and hack, toss them and chop them down.

You're going to see robots which are doing the jobs

of, say, a taxi driver.

So you do that automated taxis.

You're going to get people who are going to set them on fire.

Are you going to see robots as, like delivery drivers get out

of the truck, take out the package.

There's a robot and delivered to the front door.

And you're going to get people who've lost their jobs

are going to attack these.

So it is, it is the civil war leads into the first

confrontations between humans and robots.

It's going to happen.

And so we have to figure these, these things out.

And I just wonder which one we'll get.

Will we get ready player one?

The problem we've already played one is,

it's like if you are, like, ready player one, right?

What do I want to do today?

Do I want to race the British Grand Prix?

Do I want to play guitar for Metallica at Wembley Stadium?

It's an empty, it's a computer game,

but it's an empty experience because the beauty

of playing guitar for Metallica at Wembley

is you release Kalamore in whatever year it was

and you got in a shitty bus

and you went and played shows to 30 people.

The journey is what it's about.

Like if you, you might have fun as like the racing driver

of, yeah, you maybe for racing Ferrari, it's Silverstone,

but you didn't do all the track work.

And so when you've won a race and you've gone out

and people are saying, well done,

they're just, it's not real.

And so like, what is the real experience that fulfills us?

There's a lot to think about with this.

Like my head is in this all day every day.

How do you think the world looks in 13 years?

You don't have to give me an exact answer for you,

but it's going to look very, very different.

The only thing I'm sure about by the way

is that things are going to get weird.

Yeah, it's going to get really fucking weird.

I'm not sure what it looks like in 13 years.

My hope in all the sort of science fiction literature,

which I think in a lot of ways allowed us to sort of explore

what these concepts, you know, could look like

is it instead of the apocalyptic

or dystopian perspectives that we do end up

in this sort of more abundance focus world

where we go explore the galaxy.

And we leave, I hope so.

It's more of a Star Trek type of, you know, future.

And that to me, that's a good worthy one.

We're not fussing about nation-states

and, you know, old pictures of people on currencies

and, you know, what kind of food was available

or not available and there's no more famines

and people have available to very affordable, you know,

healthcare and longevity become something we all pursue.

Human improvement, you know, improvement.

All that sounds.

It sounds great.

It sounds great.

My closing question would be what question

have you never been asked in an interview

to the bike to the good for us?

What question have I never been asked?

What have you learned about money?

Talk with your answer.

I'll ask you your own question.

What have you learned about money?

That the idea that money can't buy happiness

is 100% true, but being broke sucks.

Yeah, but what you need for a good life

is far less than you think.

There's like a hurdle.

The hurdle is, can I pay my rent or my mortgage?

Can I go to the supermarket and buy what I want

without using the calculator?

Can I book a flight anywhere in the world at any point?

Can I have a couple of holidays a year?

That's everything else after that is lumped.

It is a bigger house, but your new house never makes you happier.

You think, oh, you need that bigger house,

but you never actually make you happy

because what ends up happening is

in that house you create an environment for you and your family.

And so you're in a bigger room,

but it's like what you do as a family together.

So if you were there as a family making dinner together,

it doesn't matter if your kitchen's

that 20 square foot, 200 square foot,

but you think you need it, right?

And then it's like the faster car

or it's the flashier holiday.

They're quite good, but like,

and then when you meet the really,

I mean, a lot of wealthy people,

then it's like the yacht or the jet or the mansion.

But like, none of them ever makes you happy,

but you sacrifice so much to get to it.

Like, there are two really important

scare things in time, Bitcoin and in life.

Sorry, Bitcoin and time, okay?

It's a saying, it's a Chinese adage,

an inch of time is worth an inch of gold,

but you cannot buy an inch of time with an inch of gold.

So time is scarce for us, right?

It's scarce for us, but we don't know how scarce.

It might be, we might have 30 units

of years left or we might have one day.

We don't know, but it becomes more scarce

and we don't know how much scarce it becomes.

So like, the sacrifice you make

for the things you think you need, those lumps

are just not worth the trade off

because you never get there.

What you actually get to is a point

where you realize, fuck, I've wasted all this time,

I just like really to play tennis or have a good coffee.

And so I could say beat the hurdle of being broke

and have an investment plan,

which means you can survive an inflation environment

and then just have a room on this conversation yourself.

What do I actually like doing?

What do I really fucking like doing?

And it's probably playing a guitar,

reading a book, going to a concert.

It isn't going to work.

I know some people do, but like eventually it isn't.

So that's what I think that thing about money

is like a really important thing to do

because time is like a really scarce resource.

Yeah.

Well, from starting off, earning seven pound 50.

No, seven pound 50 for a whole day.

For a whole day to dabbling on the Silk Road

to learning about a new form of money,

to becoming an entrepreneur, to becoming a podcaster,

to owning a football club,

and now helping shape of conversation around politics,

both in the UK and around the world.

I think a commensurate entrepreneur,

I've really enjoyed this conversation, Peter.

Thank you for joining me and enjoyed this episode.

Please subscribe and share,

and we look forward to having you on again.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you.