Parling's push: love it or hate it?

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Hello, this is The Rock, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times.

I'm Alfie Reynolds, busy show coming up in the company of Charlie Morgan and Will Kelleher,

Morning Lads. We can dress quite differently today, Charlie and I, haven't we?

Yeah, I've just noticed that, you've taken a layer off to reveal that.

Have you been thinking about the fact that the pods are now filmed, so you've got to know.

And I've forgotten that it's been, he's got to waste his stash, this is good.

So I had this morning, and never used to have to worry about this, but I was thinking, I was like,

did I wear this top last week on the pod? And our people are going to notice now,

I was like, who cares? They are now. Get me to go through.

Get me to go through. Is this, no, but you could be like, humble with it.

Like Kate Middleton, where it's like, ah, look at her re-wearing stuff, like a legend.

And what you think I'll get, applaud it for that.

Yeah, I think you would. Recycling your wardrobe.

Yeah, well, welcome along everyone, as I say.

What's that? What's a staff? You're a reminder for you as well, that you can now watch the pod

on YouTube. The Timesport YouTube channel is where the show gets put up as well,

as listening, wherever you get your pods from. Charlie, you were at Tottenham,

four-weekend. I was. Yeah. Does he ask or absolutely

Buster as well predicted? And it was, it was a lot of fun. It's quite, kind of quite

erasured, but got touchy at the end, which is exactly what we want from those two teams and

had a dramatic finish, too. So I was in Cardiff, and I think there's a point to be made,

by the way, on the pod, before I may be getting to the games, we'll look back on the

Prem. We're going to be getting into the Jeff Parley instincts, as arguably been the story

of the weekend. We're going to have a chat with Will Collier as well, Timescolemist,

and also playing as Rugby out in cast. They play Northampton this coming weekend in the

last 16 of the Champions Cup. But there was a point, I think, this weekend just gone

gents of the three big showpiece games, back-to-back, you know, Gloucester, Villa Park,

Bristol Quinn's in Cardiff. Sarasons, Northampton at Tottenham, big crowds, big showpiece, great

events, and then all the teams that put them on went and lost. It was a full set of away wins

across the board, wasn't it? Which is not unique to this weekend, but it's rare.

And it's a funny one, isn't it? And I think we probably get to this point each season and say

a similar point, but Rugby fans don't really know what they want, do they? Because there'll be

plenty of people across social media being like, God, why don't we just not play at home and

have it done properly and get our own fans easier on trains and all that stuff? And others go,

why aren't we trying to grow the sport more and everything else? And we'll come on to the

Jeff Parley thing, as you said, which is all part of it. Which is neatly encapsulated Rugby

struggles in one like 30-second clip, didn't it? But I find that the take on the side of like,

let's just keep things at home, I think, come on, don't just take this weekend as one example

of it not working. And also, when we've been to Bristol before and spoken to them about this sort

of thing, they haven't said directly that the result doesn't matter, but they do have a bigger

picture thing in mind here. Of course they wanted to win. Of course they would have been gutted,

particularly because of where that leaves them in terms of chasing the top four. But there is

a bigger thing here. And despite the result, despite the game actually was a pretty poor game in

all honesty. I would say, like the entertainment, the way they packaged it up, everything they do

around it was great. Yeah. And I think if more clubs took the bigger picture view then the week

to week view, then we'd be all be in a better place. So I think actually, despite the fact that

it might have been more of a struggle for fans that get to some of these grounds or a longer journey

or some of the stadiums weren't as full as they might have been. We've got to wait for this to

keep building over time. And like we're talking to Prem Rugby last week. They've got a plan to play

ten of these big games across the season in the next three, four years, maybe by 2030 to get to

that many. And that will include the final, possibly some neutral semi-finals, which a lot of

people on social media are annoyed about as well. I don't like that. Do you not like that? Oh,

should we talk about that then? Should we do a bit of that? I just think with the 10 team league,

that's what we're talking about with the 10 team league, potentially sort of now maybe feeling

its age and that staleness potentially setting in a little bit, I think that would be really

dangerous to essentially mean that those top two spots aren't worth as much as the. Yeah,

that is the argument of your spots out of a 10 team league. So in France, they have the

neutral, it's the same thing. In France, they have the top semi-finals off the back of that

barrage and the benefit for those top two is the week rest. You wouldn't have that in the Prem.

I do get the point of it being a showpiece and semi-finals always seem to deliver, don't they?

And as far as tension and actually quality a lot of the time as well. But I just think it's

dangerous to mitigate those top two spots and because you're almost saying that you're devaluing

a lot of the season that goes before that. So to pull back slightly, if people didn't know or

haven't read the pieces that we've written about this, the idea would be buy about 20, 30 or maybe

a bit beyond that, which is at the point where they want to have 12 teams in the league, not just 10,

the idea and they've talked about this for a few years now. It's not just something they've come

up with. I remember we were looking back, we wrote about this about four years ago as well,

that this has been a long-term plan. So the idea would be to take the semi-finals as opposed to

saying being at the Franklin's Gardens in the wreck, you'd take them both to the same stadium

somewhere else. A bigger ground, maybe Everton is somewhere they suggested or Villa Park,

perhaps, is a 50 odd thousand, something a bit bigger that but not ridiculously enormous.

Maybe playing them on the same day or like a Friday Saturday weekend or Saturday Sunday weekend,

a kind of thing and using it as a bit of a festival of rugby, a bit like the London double-headed

used to be, although that had problems with the ground never feeling like it was actually full at

one point. It was all sort of drift in for the Saracen's London Irish game and drift out as

Quinn's wasps is finishing whatever else. So that's the idea and lots of people have made that

point, the Charlie's made, if you're removing that sort of like cache of coming first and second

and therefore having your home semi-final and you're removing relegation and you're removing

a race for top eight because that's quite boring to be honest, to get eight people into the Champions

Cup. There's a lot of this bit of the season that is kind of irrelevant, like if we were to look

at it now, if you were to say there would be neutral semi-finals this season, I know it's not,

we've still got what five games, six games to go, haven't we, in the Prem, but you go Saints and Bath

are going to be massively unlikely now to finish out those top places. But you'd say would some

people be pulling up the handbrake already? But then on the flip side you might say would that

benefit someone going for a double? Perhaps going deeper in Europe if they have less concentration

on the Champions Cup? Yeah, maybe. And we did see it last year a bit, didn't we with Bath that

knew they had top four in the top spot pretty much wrapped up so they rotated their team in terms

of going for the challenge cup as well? I agree with what both of you are saying. I think the value

in having home field advantage for the semi-finals is massive at the moment and that is something worth

fighting for and I don't like the idea if they were to do it as a double header. I think if you're

going to have neutral venues for the semi-finals, they have to stand alone. So you don't have two

separate neutral venues? I think so. Okay. They wouldn't fill that, would they at least to start with?

Well, and therefore I don't think you do it, but I think it takes away, like it's a Prem semi-final.

Double headers are great events, but they always have that feel of as you say, oh we'll turn up a

bit late for the first game. Well, I'm really interested in the second one. So do you know what will

or will dash at light? I just think you have people coming and going. It doesn't have the

feel of it. And also if it's like, well, last year, the Bath Bristol semi-final at the wreck,

great occasion, local rivals, well, all of a sudden you might have that game. You say, oh no,

you've all actually got to go up to Liverpool too. Yes. I guess the other thing too to play

Devil's Africa and go the other side is that is it now too predictable that the home side wins?

So we know we've had that discussion. We throttle this that every single season, but the third

place team has never won the Prem in the history and only twice as a fourth team won it. And some

of them have made the final, but they've not then won. And it's like, do you prefer that? Do you

think that's better because largely then the best team in the season wins the league? Or would you

prefer it that it's a bit more random at the end of the season? And then there'll be lots of other

fans who go, I don't want playoffs at all. I would just like to end the season like we did in 1996

with Bath beating Leicester on the final day of the season lifting a little cup on the

own with no celebration, no trophy lift, nothing. I want it to be old school as possible and have

like a Premier League style first pass the post system. Do you think with sanitised, though,

without that, do you think we really miss without maybe realising what the drama of a title race?

Because we don't get that, do we? And we sort of get the jockeying for positioning and what you

said just then, I'll be reminded me of the fact you almost want Bath at the end of the season

because they're going to play there and at the second team, so good, but they're going to really

rotate if they're a short of first place. And that, you get those mad results, like I remember

a sirensons have been pumped sort of by 50 points previously, haven't they? Because they've

absolutely switched everybody around and it's just a weird old finish to the season.

Just to sort of look at what the, because this is an idea borrowed from top 14.

And they've, so last year, for example, they had the semi-finals on consecutive days,

both in Leal. So I guess you would make it sort of a festival of a weekend, wouldn't you?

That's what they're sort of aiming at. And I guess we were okay with it in the Champions Cup,

aren't we? And I know you'll have people shouting at their YouTubes. Is that, does that work?

I'm not sure, but they'll be going on. But look, let's to get into semi-finals. They just

play at the home stadium, don't they? So it's sort of not really, and like to lose a plate.

I wonder where the biggest stadium is near us. It's also into lose. It's that kind of thing.

So they've got to be careful, I think. You're right, Charlie, because you can have all of these

grand visions, but if you do too many of them too quickly, you start losing the people that are the

die hearts, the traditionalists, but which I think encapsulates all the things that we're probably

going to talk about on this pod. Rugby, it doesn't know what it wants, because it has a

very small band of traditional fans who would actually prefer things to have never changed since 1993,

and they're like offended that anything could modernize or change. And then there are people who

are going way too far, who want to almost be like the hundreds, or like the IPL or something,

or the NFL or American sports, and everyone goes, man, that's way too like sickly sweet and horrible

for me. There is a middle ground. There is something in the middle between those two things, right?

And I would like us to reward the ambition of these people who are taking things to bigger grounds,

having ideas, trying to innovate, trying to change things, rather than just continuing to have

this tiny little knee sport, only quite a few people are interested in.

I've got no problem with them considering it, and looking at it, I think you have to do it

in a position where you know it's going to be a success. And right now, I think there are too

many questions and reasons for why you shouldn't do it. And I think if you are going to do it,

whether it's double head over, or if it's standalone events, you have to know that you're

going to sell them out. Definitely. And right now, they're not, I don't think.

Or get close to, because I guess if Mark Evans was on this pod as the man who created

the big game with Quins, is that you have to build it over a few years. And that's what Bristol

hope will happen with their big day out in Cardiff, and that's what Sarri's hope will keep happening

with Tottenham. And if the Slater Cup thing keeps happening at Villapark or somewhere else,

you're never going to nail it in year one, unless you give away loads of free tickets,

and then you're hiding is nothing anyway. So you've got to build it over consecutive seasons,

haven't you? Yeah. And it links quite nicely to the piloting situation, which will come on to

in just a second. I wanted to pose a question to you both, because Greg emailed us the

ruck at the Times.co.uk and he was talking about how these big games and it was the home teams

that had been losing them over the weekend for Bristol has moving, cost them a top four finish.

He thinks for them, it has for Sarri's, he thinks less so. But what do we reckon?

Sarri's obviously less so. They were in a slump and it was really odd actually to him.

Mark McCool say he was really proud of a performance that came in a losing course, but it made sense

given how they'd gone against Bath previous weekend. For Bristol, I think it's probably more to do

with those two lock injuries, but Joe Battalion, Pedro Rubio Lo have really hurt them and they

just generally looked flat. But yeah, even losing to that Quinn's team is that's an aberration

for them, because I was at the Lester game and was impressed by them and they just,

they looked really inaccurate, didn't they? It's been a really bad couple of games,

post six nations for Bristol. When you consider that all their other top four rivals have all one

both their games and Bristol have lost both of them and now all of a sudden you're looking at

the table and it's what, their two wins off, which is doable, but actually a six game still to go

is like that's a bit of a, this is a small mountain to climb, isn't it? And you think of all the

good Bristol have done this season with the amount of injuries they had early on in the campaign

and we've all been saying it, how brilliant they've done to be right in the top four mix with

the resilience of that team and you feel in a couple of weekends bang, bang, they're not totally

out of it, but their playoff chances all of a sudden look ahead of a lot more slim. In May, they've

got hosting Sarasons, traveling to Northampton, hosting Bath, and I think that's the sort of run

that it's key, right? They've got to win two of those, haven't they? Yeah, they've got, they've got

hosting Gloucester and then traveling to Newcastle, which they then they'd hope to win both of those

before that, but that's probably the make or break run. I just think it's, I thought maybe pre-sex

nations that Bristol were like the story of the season because they, I know lots of teams,

Quins have said they've had millions of injuries, Gloucester have had millions of injuries,

Bristol have had millions of injuries, but with Bristol you looked at just the whole spine of their

team around that Christmas period was out like nine, ten, and their game break is like Ibertoye

and people like that, the summit for a little bit. I mean, the nine in turn, we mentioned a

Randall and McGinty for a massive block of time, and so I thought for them to have come through

that kind of first couple of blocks and ended up in the top four was remarkable, really, and actually

lots of people go, yeah, look how deep their squad is, depth, depth, whatever, but I think maybe

Charlie's bang on that the people they didn't lose were the people that were really important

like Batley and Rubiolo who were smacking people up front, whereas now they've lost them,

and it's almost like you can have all your summits you like, but it's the Quins situation we've

talked about endlessly, which is the front five is the thing that gives you the go forward to be

able to play the nice stuff out the back, and it's just ironic, isn't it, that like now all the

stars are back and they've dropped off their form again. And it was also ironic as well that,

you look to that Quins team on paper and when it was named, I saw a few people saying,

really looking forward to seeing Marcus Smith or even Ellie Kildunk, she wasn't playing in

the women's game, which would happen before, that was a double head and looked at the Quins team,

and I thought they had Bristol win this easily now, it's probably going to be quite one-sided,

and then all of a sudden this Quins team that have been absolutely awful season, they're like,

where was that grit and fight all season? Shout out to Alex Donbrun.

Yeah, absolutely. I thought he was excellent, I think he looks when he gets it right in the

prime, he looks like a real force in that league, and actually he'd been sneaky good for

England and Argentina as well, so things trending pretty well for him.

It was just a minimum requirement, wasn't it, for the season they've had Quins.

We've been saying that for weeks though, isn't it?

Yeah, I know, and they finally have done it, anything, well there you go, that to me shows

that Jason Gilmore, now he's been given the head coach's job, has got something,

like if that can be a minimum requirement of fight, grit, spirit, heavy hitting and

defence, like Bradley and guys like that, we're whacking people, weren't they?

You just think that's kind of, that is the baseline, and we talked about that with England

in the way they were meek against Ireland, it's that enduring thing in rugby, isn't it, of like

the absolute minimum is just to go around be full of spirit and bang people.

And how far that can get you, actually. Yeah, yeah.

And it was, I think that's a good sign for Quins, because as you say, there's a lot of

people who are by no means household names in that team whatsoever, like you look at the bench

and it's massively inexperienced, but you think that always, always the frustration with Quins

is that they've got two of those in them a season, and then they've got 80% of the rest of it

is rubbish. Yeah. Like they've beaten Saracens like that this season, they've beaten Lara

Shell away this season and they've beaten Bristol and Cardiff this season, and you think,

I don't understand you. Like we've said it before, it's like you're not serious people,

it's that quote, isn't it? From session. Yeah, it's, but look, I think that was a massively

important sign for Quins, wasn't it? There's the sort of line in the sand, start of their new era,

like I met Jason Gilmore last week, and he's a very impressive man in public, like he's,

I don't know how much it comes across on TV and stuff, and people might be frustrated that he got

promoted this global search that sort of found a guy that was already there, frustrated people

at Quins, but I think he's got a lot about him, and I saw Jamie Roberts talking about him,

over the weekend, and was saying he worked with him at the War of Tars, and he's in its seriously

impressive coach, and like test quality coach. I think he's just been having to do the defence

and everything else at the same time, and a lot of the players love him, but they showed that

on Saturday, didn't they, and Cardiff? Yeah, definitely. No, it was really impressive Quins

performance, although I can imagine Quins fans were probably watching it and thinking where

enough has that been all season. Let's get on to the situation at Leicester, so as I was waiting

and getting prepared in Cardiff, I was doing commentary with Matt Garvey, and he came up to me,

and he said, have you seen what happened? Jeff Parling and TNT said no, gets his phone out,

and shows me the sit track. I'm sure many of you would have seen it by now. For those,

in those circumstances as well, I was exactly the same, sort of got a message, have you seen

what's happened? And then I actually diligently, I must add, went back to try and get the whole

context of it on their sort of player, just to make sure that it's important to see everything.

Yes, for sure. So for those that haven't seen it, pre-match at Villa Park,

ahead of Gloucester Leicester, TNT on the pitch, as they often are, Craig Doyle hosting,

and then Liam McDevitt, I think he was working on their rugby coverage for the first time.

I think he's been involved in TNT's football coverage previously, and as part of the

initiation as they called it, they gave him a conversion from near the left hand touch line to

hit towards the post. We've seen people do it before, I remember, who go, Monia doing like a drop

kick from the sideline, it was at West Ham or something, very absolutely nailed it.

It was half time, so that was it, half time. Oh, okay, so that's why it's very interesting,

because that was at half time. But anyway, pre-game, they take this conversion,

go see, just miss his, go see towards the post, Parlin comes over, and is not happy.

Shubbs, Craig Doyle, you hear him swear and tell them to get the off the pitch,

discuss off the back of this. Can we just say that, like, whatever we

think and then all the poll collecting and everything else, it was very funny.

Oh, it was funny, yeah. Like, we're all allowed to go through that. If you happen to zoom into

Brian Address Coles' face, because that is, it's beautiful. It's somebody who's just

watched their mate in class, get absolutely rinsed by a teacher and knows that they,

if they keep that straight face for 10 seconds, that they're in the clear.

Shubbs, where should we start? I thought starting point, quite lame and clumsy from TNT,

especially knowing that they, that nothing was pre-agreed within, organised with,

with Lester, has tends to be the case with their excellent sort of coverage pre-game

before. I thought then, clumsy in return from parling, and that's basically all I thought of

it, to be honest. The other funny bit was just before I get into what I actually think about it,

was when parling was walking over Craig Doyle, bless him, thought that he was coming over for a chat,

and went like, hey mate, you're going to sign him up and he was like, yeah, oh, sorry, sorry, sorry,

yeah, it's not happy about that, it's not happy. Like, such memeable content, and you think,

how does Craig Doyle have good news? Yeah, I mean, he's an unbelievable good broadcast, isn't he?

And like, the poise to just sort of brush that off and this crack on with it was great, but,

and in a funny way, the whole, it's sort of in on itself, isn't it? But the funny thing of

everyone going like, oh my god, rugby hates growing its game, and you're a bit like, this clip's gone

mental viral, and it's on every newspaper, and it's like talking about the rugby, isn't it?

Well, as we often say, the talk sport test of getting rugby on the talk sport, I suspect one

of the producers of White and Jordan this morning said, can we get to parling on? Yeah, we're talking

about that. So, you know, on, so on that, I had a chat with some of you very influential in

English rugby and in the beginning of the season, he suggested that Leicester could lean in sort of

intentionally to their sort of image of being gruff of circling the wagons, and in a sort of way,

and I think his point was that it could sort of be in a way that Sarasons have tried to do with

the North London all sort of mischief they have after, after games and trying to sort of be the bad guy,

he thought Leicester could do that even more convincingly because they are just inherently

the bad guys, and they absolutely are proud of that, and sort of to underline that. The reaction

I've seen, you know, I know a lot of Leicester fans, and they just about all of them adored it and

said, you know, give Jeff parling a pay rise, that's what we're actually about as a club protecting

the players. I find this, so I find it so fascinating how polarised the, the view is on this,

and the amount of people I've seen that have been in Jeff parling's camp, and I'll be totally

honest, I thought it was funny, as you guys said, but I thought parling was totally out of line,

I think his excuse for he was worried about the wellbeing of the players and someone getting

injured. What injury are you worried about here, Jeff? It's just, so I know like obviously they're

not, they're being hit with the ball is less serious. I thought he also meant if they're not looking

into, they could be a glam agrar, sort of tripping on the ball sort of vibe, so I'm not saying that

is, that excuse is that being the main thing. Sure, but I thought his excuse was pretty paper thin,

and I think reading between the lines, I think Leicester themselves know that they got the tone

of it wrong by the fact that they released a statement then on Sunday evening where they did

kind of apologise and all that sort of thing. So yeah, I just felt like, I felt like parling was

out of line, I felt like his excuse for why he did it was pretty lightweight and pretty paper thin

in the first place, and look, it's not a huge deal, we'll, we'll all move on, but I've found the

amount of people that, yeah, good on your Jeff, you stick it to him, I was just all a little bit

bizarre. It's like, yeah, yeah, stick it to, stick it to them, Jeff, and let's have no coverage,

let's have no access, let's just batten down the hatches, like, it's only us in our own little

bubble brilliant. Yeah, so you just left the Tigers all the way. They haven't approved, they haven't

approved it beforehand. Two things. Just like, I think I put in our WhatsApp, like, it just reminds

me of the milk monitor at school or some of it, excuse me, you haven't actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

no, come on. And look, I think there's lots of wider to, and look, I think we're probably like

everyone else sort of like over extrapolating this tiny thing into this mega issue, but I do think

it talks to the heart of lots of the issues that are going on in our sport at the moment.

Maybe this is pulling back the curtain a bit too much, but we're the journalist rugby

podcast, so I think we should and can is that access to in the media varies so wildly between

clubs, between countries, and there are so many people in the sport doing brilliant stuff,

and they're far too many, not doing enough. And also, the problem I find is so much of it is

pervaded by head coaches when this is not their job. Their job is to coach the team, but everything

is sacrificed on the ultra high performance. It's like, if this doesn't help our high performance,

we're not doing it. And there are some, refreshingly, Bristol are a very good example,

sailor, another very good example, Northampton, a really good example, where they understand that

there is a wider picture, a bigger picture, a bigger events, good access to players, coaches,

everything else, openness, and there are far too many other clubs, I'm afraid, that are not good

enough at this, and they're quite happy to sort of operate in their only tiny little spheres.

I think that too many head coaches control freaks. Well, does that's a problem? I think that's

one of the things that maybe this gets right into the heart of it, actually, you see the kind of

the mindset or just like how a coach's brain operates, like the control they want to have on

that, and it kind of spilled over in quite an ugly way here, but it's quite a revealing thing.

Absolutely, that's why I think this is important. And also I think there's a second bit to that,

which is related, which rugby takes itself far too seriously. Everything's so frowning and

serious and dour and important. It's so important. The warm-up is so important, Alfie, that we

can't have someone kicking a goal during it, because someone might get injured. And you go, come on,

just lighten up. This is a sport. This is a diversion. This is what people want to do on the

weekend. This is fun. Charlie, I think all of that as valid as all of that is, I think it was,

that wasn't access, a guy booting a ball towards the box. I'm extrapolating it off her,

no, no, no, no. But all those points are fair. I think this is a head coach stopping his side

from being distracted by what was just a clumsy moment. And as I say, it was clumsy. And I think

the really sort of good point is that the statement sort of shows us that actually

Lester realised that the league is moving and should be moving and is being driven maybe,

is the better way of putting it towards a place where more access is, everybody's working towards

getting more access. And Lester fans certainly want more access as well. They're not,

the circle and wagon thing, I think, is a pride that their head coach is on it. And I think that's

more, more what it was. He has clearly regretted it as well. So I think with all of this, we're not

trying to hammer Jeff Parling necessarily for like a short, sharp reaction live on TV. We're trying

to say that maybe it pulled back the curtain a bit and revealed some of these issues that we

battle with week after week. And some people just saw it happen live on TV, which maybe then

pulls back all the stuff that we do with all time. Yeah. We're trying to get into the circle.

I feel like maybe we need to be more like Charlie is very, you know, measured, measured level headed.

I'm like, nobody's ever shoved me and I'll ask them a question.

All right, we'll leave it there. We'll come back the other side of Will Collier and have a chat

about the Champions Cup last 16, but Will Collier, of course, times columnists. He's playing his

rugby out in cast and they take on the North Hampton Saints in the last 16 this weekend.

Just a quick breather to tell you about today's sponsor, Allianz, a partner that's all about

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some for the very first time. If your local club could do with a bit of a lift,

check out the link in the show notes and nominate them for an Allianz Future Fund grant.

Okay, so live down the line from the south of France is Will Collier, times columnist. How's

life as a journalist? Well, you've been contributing loads of great columns through the six nations,

loving your scrums. Everyone's loving your stuff. Are you part of the club now? Very kind. Thank you.

That has a nice ring to it. Will Collier times columnist. I think I just changed my

social handles or something. The nurse, it's good. It's good. You know, everyone always says it's

the props who are the most intelligent or hiding the talents times. And I'm good that I can

hopefully show people who don't just scrum. We can write a bit as well and know a bit about the game.

Yeah, absolutely. We were talking off air about your column about the deer cull, which was

sort of close to home because your dad's a Richmond Park Ranger. He has a Richmond Park Ranger

so careful if you miss behaving in the park. Mike Collier will be there.

Watch out. We're going to we're trying to do this week. Well, because massive game for cast,

your team against away at Northampton in the Champions Cup this week. Can you kind of paint

the picture for us of what it's like in preparation for one of these big games? Cast of

obviously played Saints in the last 16 last year. So you're familiar foes? Yeah, it's

nice huge. It's, you know, we've only just had the Monday morning meeting, but it's a there's

already a bit edgy. They're kind of throwing around just the does the m crunch. And so you know,

cast small, plucky town. Traditionally, we don't chase Europe traditionally or we don't travel

particularly well. In the last couple of seasons, that's changed. We've had a big way wins in

Saracens in Munster. So there's a bit of, you know, belief now bubbling away and a bit of a taste

and a flavor and a hunger for these big European matches now cast. So there's definitely an edge

amongst the boys in the group. How does that look like? How does the change between when a side

chases Europe prioritises Europe versus when you don't? Is it really obvious sort of to a squad?

I think so. I mean, you know, you can tell when the team has been rotated as it is. Wish up,

wish often happens. And I think it's, you know, it's like I said, the last year in Europe, we

weren't sure, I don't think the team was sure how we're going to go because the club like cast

are going to be honest, you know, the Japanese so huge in the top 14. And you see it, you know,

sometimes teams have to do have to prioritise in Europe and there's big debate around that and

people sending different squads. But I think what gave us huge belief last year was we did this

rotated squad that went away to Saracens and we won there against some, you know, all their best

best players, which gave us huge belief as a squad is what we can do. And on the back of that kind

of slightly propelled us into into the other fixtures, but we've said from the outset this season,

you know, we want to we want to go hard in Europe and be honest about that. Where before,

before I think when you set the goals preseason, often it cast in some other clubs, that's not

it's not necessarily been the priority. It's, you know, make sure we're establishing the top 14

and then then we can go from their lads. And so what changes in a week like this will because

when we've been messaging before, you've been sending me pictures of Baguette Club,

is that what on a Tuesday and things that do they get all put away this week? Was it like

dying, dialing up the food? Does the quality of the food go with the quality of the match?

So we can go to the menu if you want the cards are sure. Yes, please, I don't say that.

Someone's birthday today, so we have morning, morning gato, which was nice.

Oh, I'm in case. Be careful. I don't think our urgency or actually we don't have any

nutritionists, so there's no matter. But you've got to say before I came out, did he?

We'll be listening to the tension. But it's the big part of it. And I, you know, I mentioned

before the podcast there, I mean, it's funny, but it does have an impact on the preparation,

obviously, because, you know, professional sport and food nutrition go hand in hand,

even more so in France, even more so as a prop forward in France. It's kind of, you know,

it revolves around rugby and food. And for the boys here, you know, last time,

we went away to Northampton, they were, you know, the game didn't go away in the end. But the hotel,

which I'm not going to name, they didn't put on the best spread for the boys. And I felt partly

responsible for that being the only Englishman in cast. So I got a lot of heat and a lot of flak.

So the minute I saw we draw in Northampton away, I went to the managers to check which hotel we're

going in and to check the menu because the big thing was the Asparagus, which didn't go down well.

And the boys already worried. This Asparagus season here in France, which is a big thing,

like the mushroom season, and, you know, the seasonality here, the produce, it's been in

training lately. It has an impact. But, you know, the boys ritual, they have the little jambon bur on

match day with the fresh baguette and the butter and, you know, we laugh, but it's a thing they do,

and it's part of the routine. What was wrong with the Asparagus? Too stringy? Not as slavical?

I mean, I don't know, it's not really weird. It's so much. It's so many problems.

The first, it was raw. It wasn't cooked. And then it wasn't, it wasn't washed either. So it was

like grainy and muddy. So one of the boys, oh, oh, yeah, that's purge. And like, it took a bite.

I'm surprised you didn't get the plane up. Too good for you.

The meal plan hadn't been adjusted for the English seasonality. So they just said,

all right, if we're going to French hotel, whatever, we'll just give them the usual what we'd

be getting here, the Asparagus, etc. So they send it to the, as I said, I'm not going to

name the hotel, but it had a bit of an effect on the boys, I think.

Did people use this motivation of like Henry Pollock's messing with the Asparagus?

We've got to go and get it.

Yeah, I don't know if he's focused on the Asparagus seasons as I'll back from right here.

But it's, you know, yes, it's poor. It's poor bottom it.

Can we reveal that you're going to a different hotel or have you backed them to take the learnings?

Do you know what? I think breaking news, I think it's the same hotel.

Oh, wow. They've got a lot. They've got a lot to live on.

If there's a Deliveroo in the Northampton area, there's Asparagus, I'll be shocked.

My boys would bring their own Asparagus on people, boiling them in a kettle or something.

So asparagus decides, like, if we dwell on some food for a little bit longer, because

this is the best content of the pod, I think. What else is on the menu this week?

And do you have to pair it back? You can't just, you can't just fatten the calves all week, can you,

well, no, it's not, it's not so much about maybe what we're eating, but it's the kind of the

collective togetherness of like meal time and snack time and the collation. It's an event.

It's like for lunch, we're all sitting down for at least half an hour, 45 minutes together.

And you're going to have a starter, you're going to have a main, and you're going to have dessert.

So when I arrived, you know, we kind of go in, I was worried that I was going to miss out on the

key challenge. You whack all on one big plate. What's he doing? What's this guy doing? He doesn't know

there was like, you have a little salad starter and you go over for the mains and then

be all sit down together, same with, you know, sitting at the photo of the baguettes and the

harms in between, in between draining. It's a, it's a fit. Everyone, you know, it sits from

carefully prepares the jambun, but with a lovely salted butter and the ham and the cheeses.

And it's about, it's kind of the sharing in the culture and the togetherness of it, which I love.

Well, I think when we, you're writing a column for us this week about the preparation of this game,

I feel like it's going to be food heavy, but should we talk some rugby as well? We can try.

What should everyone expect who doesn't watch cast every week from you guys in terms of style of

play and a few names and players that they should look out for who might not be household names

over this way? Yeah, well, there's obviously some players which book people might know,

like the Jacked Hughes of this world and former black. Yeah, obviously the all black center,

but we've, we've changed a bit the way we play this year. We're slightly more expansive,

playing a bit more of an off-low game. We've had a lot of injuries and a lot of teams have

but key injuries, for example, are 10 Louis Lebron and Cahagy, who is the big Fiji and center.

They were kind of pretty crucial to the way we play. Cahagy's a, you know, great big Fiji and

Cahagy made the quote in the plays like an Andres de Hazen. You know, he gets his arms free and

off-loads and he runs incredibly hard off him. But then we've got Jack and Willy Buttitu in the

centers who can make up that pairing. But it's a big, it's a big team. It's a big team. I know

everyone is the stereotype. We always say, oh, the French are really big, but they're big,

big men. You know, the second row is here, enormous duke out in the second row. Tom Stanofloth,

you know, he's been in the French squad, Nacca as well. There isn't a second row, he's under

six, five, six, six here. And then it's just gnarly gritty, back row, no superstars. But last year,

I, my name checked, Baptiste teleport, I think, who's kind of born and bred here. He's in the same

same mold as like a Matio Babio, who's are, who's like Captain. But they're both, you know,

castor and through born and bred gritty, tough. They just, just love contacts and getting their

face in the mud. And before, before the games, it can be like, you know, the old school French images,

you see a bit of their headbutting and Vaseline everywhere, DP everywhere. It's a bit of that

and the passion. But I think, yes, like I said, you know, you'll see the big men trying to

lock it down up front and then trying to play a bit more expansive this year and play out the back.

We'll be playing with, you know, the piston pod of three, play out the back, shift it, shift it

wide. Another person to look out for, if he's playing his Christian, our winger, who is unbelievably

quick, unbelievably powerful. Really exciting. And it sounded like it might have been because of

the Midlands cuisine a bit last year, well, but can we expect the same level as of Tachiness?

There was a bit of, it was a bit fiery the last time you guys came up against one another.

Yeah, I, I, um, I fired the boys up maybe a bit too much. We might as, as I said, our emotional

energy was a bit spending the change. We were five points away from them and we were really stuck

in the fight and then they brought on their subs and we just couldn't hold on. They were completely

ran away with it as a team like Northampton can do, you know, their magic that completely star-sided.

But we've got, you know, there's a bit of a blueprint and a bit of a belief now. Okay, you know,

50 minutes, we were there. We can do that again. Now if we make those little changes when the

subs come on and we know to control the game a little bit better, we know that how they can finish

the game in the last 30. That's what the game is going to be one. When we can look to target that.

But there's, yeah, there's a, you know, we're going in his underdogs, obviously. The team like

casts is what we love. And what about, give us some of your top 14 French insights to the,

the other guys in the, in the last 16. We know plenty about Bordeaux and Toulouse, but they're playing

obviously tigers and Bristol. And then we've got Toulon stormers. Toulon, how are they tracking at the

moment? They've slipped up a bit at the last few weeks, actually. They were kind of well, well in top

six, looking really good. And they've had some results that really haven't gone their way. I think

they lost, they lost a stats at home, which, you know, they quite badly, didn't they? Yeah, it was

amazing performance from stats and fair play, but that doesn't happen in Toulon. It's, I mean,

it obviously are to lose, but it's right up there with the hardest place to go away and win. It's

an incredible, as you know, stab my eyes incredibly hard to win there. So they've had some results

that not gone their way. I think they dropped down 9th or 9th or 10th. It's blow us, not I think.

You know, that could be one of them, those where they're saying, right, well, maybe top 14's

going for us. And realistically, can we get into top six? Can we see that? Where are they? Yeah,

they're 11th, yeah. 11th, yeah. Which, which actually all their emotional energy and everything,

would probably be going into Europe now and getting back to that because it looks, it looks for us,

you know, usually this stage of the season, if you're in 11th, there's still the real jeopardy of

relegation. You know, one game goes the wrong way. You could end up in 13th and suddenly you're

fighting for a playoff place, but this year, it's been slightly different with Montaban and

Perpignon, who are pretty cemented down the bottom. Yeah, so long might say we know we're safe.

This is it. Everything's going into Europe now. Yeah, that's remarkable for a sort of British

audience to see too long 11th out of 14, isn't it? I guess maybe there's some similar vibes

there with Salem Quinn, who this is their last shot, last swing of the bat really, isn't it,

for the whole season? Both of them, like playing each other, that Europe have Quinn's. What have you

made of, they, they came out fighting on Saturday against Bristol and one, they did one of their

shot wins, didn't they? The most, where, well, I mean, I think I saw a few comments before the game

and spoke to a few lasers, like, no, no, in Queens, we'll go and win this. And I kind of thought,

yeah, probably, but not with that score line, if you do set them to go, you know, 41-42 or something,

but it was the defense. And I mean, what a performance, what belief from the boys to do that.

I mean, it's this mad, you know, season and a half haven't been there and the squad's already

pretty completely different when I was there, but seeing boys like Don Brandt and Caden and it's

come at the perfect time that win away from home. And obviously, it was revenge for Bristol,

did to Quinn's, that the big game, the Twickenham, which was pretty horrendous. Yeah, very

it's really personal between Quinn's and Bristol now, she's thinking back to the semi and

there's a lot of history there, but I think that's come, as I said, the perfect, the perfect time

for them to now go into Europe off the back of that against sale, because I think people have

said this could be good, it's a good draw for Quinn's, it's kind of, you know, perfect at home,

they could beat sale, but it's going to be really tough. That's their nighly team, it's kind of

the antithesis of what Quinn's are, I think they could grind it out. Well, what can I ask what

your sort of, through your lens you're looking at now, what have you made of the prime of maybe the

prime teams in the remaining in this draw, their prospects of, because it looks like it's going

to be tough going, we'll get one semi, won't we, because there's going to be an all,

all, all prem court final, but winning this competition is still such a tough task. Yeah,

I mean, it was kind of looking at thinking about Northampton last year, but it's, you know,

we can be competitive, definitely the prime of the team is a competitive in Europe, but it's

as you said, it's to actually go to the next level and then go and win the thing, which hasn't

happened in how long now, or since Exeter 2020, won't it be? Yeah, since 2020, the

French all the way since, right? Yeah, yeah, but the strengths of the squads over here,

I don't know, I don't know, can a team, can a team can a team do that now? I think it's

incredibly tough, it's incredibly tough to do that now. You've got to be able to have first and

second string here with L thereabouts, so you can rotate the team throughout the season and

like, you know, like a border or to lose. If you don't, if you don't have that, the emotional

energy it takes to go on and try and win this thing is brutal. And the, you know, there's obviously

some incredible squads in the Premiership and starting 15 and actually 23s, but I think the real

strength that a lot of these French clubs have is they can flip it out and which is this 23,

or this 23 is 15, and there's this hardly any difference. Yeah, I guess the one club who

can do that in the Prem at the moment is Bath, but just by the draw, they've got to beat

Sarah's, then possibly beat you or Saints and then go to either board or to lose and you think,

blind me, they're like having their best season ever, and that's the draw, that's their route to

just get to the semi-final. Yeah, I know, but they, you know, they could do it, they could do it,

with an incredible team, just the managing injuries now at the stage of the season.

Last one will, what's the shock? And you can say cast at Saints if you want.

Like everyone's looking at this going one shock, what could it be?

I'll say, I might have to do, I'll say cast Saints to cover my back.

Yeah, well done. I'm obliged to. And then who else have we got?

Sarah's in a way, Bath, aren't they? Yeah, the way team, the way team ties at Bordeaux, Bristol

Act to lose, Sarah's at Bath, you at Saints, Bulls at Glasgow, Stormers at Toulon, Edinburgh at

Lentster and Sales Sharks at Quint. Oh, I'm mad, I'm going to, I'm going to go,

Sarah's. Okay. They've got players who've done it before. I know going off the very recent

track record and results, people say I'm crazy, but they've got players, you know,

to win those kind of games. And they could grind that out.

Nice. Okay, well, I feel like we need one shock. And let's hope it isn't the menu at your

unnamed hotel in Northampton or near Northampton. Well, let's hope it's a pleasant shock.

A pleasant shock. A pleasant surprise to get some good asparagus down there.

Yeah, check the delivery off there. Awesome. We'll really appreciate your time and

all the best for cast for this weekend. And like, everyone who wants to read more about the week,

that he's going to come for cast in this week, pick up a copy of the Times. Online,

every else will keep on writing because he's brilliant at it.

We're great to have Will Collier on the pod. And as mentioned there in that conversation,

keep an eye out for his behind the scenes from cast this week. In terms of the other matches,

so obviously Northampton against Cass, you've got bathsaries, two lawn stormers,

Glasgow Bulls, Toulouse Bristol, Harlequin Sale, Bordeaux Leicester, and Lentster, Edinburgh.

Am I being harsh when I say that we're kind of waiting for next weekend? And the court of

final line up here, lad? No, you're not being harsh, Toulouse. That's totally fine.

The Harlequin Sale just sticks out as, you know, ninth in the Prem hosting seventh in the Prem,

in the Prem being a league where eight out of ten qualify, which is just blows my brain to smithereens.

They're just, please, can that be cut? And how are they? I know the formats are locked in

until 2030. Yeah, well, until they get a bit of idea, basically, it's almost like,

why aren't Prem clubs going? Stop this. It's, what do you think? Let's go on strike.

Well, just not play. I think that would be funny. But I think we're going to see,

and the irony is that we, we being the media, sort of pilloried French sides for the big rotation,

the big rotation that happened. And sometimes when they realised quite abruptly that they were

going to prioritise the league, Lester are going to Bordeaux where they have one in the past and

played brilliantly under, that was a sort of flagship, flagship result of the Steve Boothwick

reign. But they're going to rest. And that's just because they need a week off post-six nations,

they haven't had one yet, all three of them. And the sort of, the marker that they were going to

do, that was that they all played against Gloucester, wasn't it? So that's not really information.

That's just obvious by the fact that they had to have one week off in the next three, and they

haven't taken it yet. I also can't blame Lester for that. When you look at an away trip to Bordeaux,

all right, you never know, you could do it. We've seen Quinn's going win there in Northampton

last year, an amazing time in Europe. But you think for this season, Lester obviously the priority

is going to be getting top four. So I don't blame them whatsoever, playing those guys in their

two-prem games and resting them for Europe. No, and they've, well, I've got 10 points out of those

two-prem games. And sometimes it is a really good, when you rotate a side, it's a really good

marker for how well coached and how good your depth, how well coached you are as a side,

how good your depth is becoming. Bathly, so. Bathly, yeah. That's an obvious example.

St. Winning out there. St. Versus Bathbean's flagship won this season. St. sort of rotating and

going down there and playing exactly like we come to expect from Northampton albeit with less

familiar names. So it can certainly be worthwhile, but I just think because we talk about integrity,

a lot, I mean, integrity of competition, it just, it just is a bit. So if you're ECR this week,

you're turning your hair up again. And you're like, I pray for a shock, they would be desperate

for someone to win away. Where's it coming? I was just about to say, where's the most likely

shock? I actually can't see it. Well, let's go through them. So you can't say that's a huge shock.

Maybe not. No, dependent on the two South African franchises, you'd, you'd back those to,

to those guys to pit. Well, if you go for Bordeaux Tigers and like Tigers all be full of spirit and

they're in good form generally, but you still expect Bordeaux to come swinging it and put 40 points

past defending champions, number one seeds to lose Bristol similar could be more if it gets ugly.

So that's two games that are written off. Bar Sarasons, is it weirdly sort of an unknown maybe,

because you go, it can't be 60 odd 15 again, surely. But Sarasers aren't in good form and

Barthorne great form and they've rested half their best players. They've all gone one day last

week and they're back fresh and they haven't had a home game in the Champions Cup knockout for

about 20 years. And so they're going to be fizzing for that. So you'd expect them to win. You just

don't really know what margin that'll be. Saints cast, you'd expect Saints to win that. They're in

good form and that'd be a massive shock if they lost that game. Glasgow have been probably the story

of the Champions Cup from the pool stage haven't they beat to lose, didn't they? So and the Bulls

were not interested in the slightest and I'll know they've accidentally managed to get into the

last 16. Till on Storm as you expect, till on to win that. Stormers do like the Champions Cup. We

always say that like John Dubs and their coach loves it, but they're hamstrung. They feel by

traveling everything else, not sure what sort of side they'll bring. Lentz do you be amazed if

they lost to Edinburgh who are poor generally? And like if we had Mark Palmer on, he'd tell you

that as well. And then Quinn sailed, yeah, I guess sales probably the most likely a way win of all

of those and then huge shock though, is it? Like that's the game I'm doing on the weekend and

I guess that whole report will be sort of this was the last swing of the bat for either them

this season and then what comes next week? Lentz do away. But isn't this what it so often comes

down to and we chat about the Champions cups. If we run through those results, have you just

laid them out? It means then next week it would be Bordeaux to lose. Bath Northampton,

Glasgow, Toulon and then Lentz to either Quinn's or sail. All right, that quarter final isn't that

interesting, but those other games are like just wet your appetite. But then you go, welcome back

European. Cut where have you been all this time? What a fantastic set of matches. But what a weekend

lock-in. But it doesn't have a fridge. Underline the problem of the whole competition is yes.

At that point when we get to Easter, the second weekend in April. Well, the weekend after

Easter, the second weekend in April, it's brilliant. But we've had to wait months to get to that point.

And it will be imagine that Bordeaux to lose quarter final. Bath Saints quarter final, that'd be

absolutely awesome. Well, is it answer to enliven it? And by the way, I think Bristol will be

better in Toulouse, and I think they'll throw a few shots. Bristol, by the way, actually took

it really seriously this year. And they played really well in the pool stage. There's some really

big results. I went away to South Africa and won in a mad game. Yeah, crazy game. And then because

Toulouse haven't been quite as good, it's like, there you go. Tricks to lose. Obviously. Oh, Toulouse,

just get the 8th seat to their home. Do you sort of enliven it? Do you just cut just a half

that's the end? I'm stealing a point here that somebody made to me at the weekend. But do you

do you just cut it in half? So eight go through, play two legs to keep the sort of calendar the

the same? Because then you've got if the top eight seats, Bordeaux, Bordeaux, Glasgow,

Lentster, Bath, Saints, Harlequin still there. Are they having beaten? They did go to Larry

Shell and win Toulon and Toulouse. That's a, that's a, that's a strong,

when you do, just caught a fine of his two legs. I guess that was COVID sort of. Yeah, they did

last 16 double-legged jobs, didn't they? I don't know. I just think we've said this every time,

but 16 teams in the end of the season, that's my, that's my theory. All the other things are just

sort of like fiddling on the, what's the, are going to massively mangle the phrase there?

Deckchecks on the, Deckchecks on the, Deckchecks. Deckchecks on the time. It's fiddling

while Rome burns and also moving the Deckchecks on the Titanic and I've sort of gone, just lovely,

smashing them together. I think we got the general point. Yeah, nicely done. So I don't know, but

I feel sad about this mate because it's like we, when we record this pod at this time every year,

we say, we feel like we just say the same thing and maybe we need to be more creative about how to

attack these weekends, but you just go, please, please defy it, please defy the logic and like,

let's have tiger's winning in Bordeaux, like mental, they'll just be amazing, but you just feel

like it's unlikely. So it's gonna be a scrap as well. Well, you've got to, you've got to think,

if series, if series aren't throwing everything at that, kitchen sink, punches, whatever,

maybe not punches, then that's the end of their season. They're done. Yeah. That's the end of

the Mark McCall era done out with a wimper in April finished like they're massively unlikely

to make the top four now. And like what, what a way to like end this like stunning era of the

Mark McCall rain with just a kind of wet blanket last few months. That'd be rubbish, wouldn't it?

I can't see that from them. They've got so much character in that dressing room and so much sort

of like experience and dog and fight and spirit and everything. They can't just sort of let it

fizzle for the next three months, can they? Well, no, you wouldn't have thought so. I do,

I am thinking though, as we're speaking about this after we're, you know, absolutely savaging

the last 16. We're gonna get three like all-time great away wins now, aren't we? And that'd be

brilliant. That's what we want. I think all this, we feel like we have to be critical of the

Champions Cup because it isn't, it is a bit of a basket case, but we want it to be brilliant.

Like, like all things in our sport, we want it to be amazing and the best thing ever. And

for everyone to love it and sit around their TV all weekend and just go, I've had the best time

watching eight amazing games and I'm then going to gorge on the four next weekend as well.

That's what we want, isn't it? We don't want it to be rubbish. Well, if you want to send us an

email about anything we've touched upon in the pod this week, or just any of your own thoughts as well,

questions you want us to try and get to, then the email address is the ruckatthetimes.co.uk. You

guys know where you're heading next to. Quince out for me. Quince out. The bald man fighting

over a comb. I'm on holiday. Where are you off to? Dorset. Dorset and then, yeah, and then

then family time for, family time for Easter. See, Charlie, just taking the last 16 off because, you know,

back at it for the court finals. Yeah, and then I'm off for the quarter, so yeah.

Thank you very much for listening or watching. If you watch the pod on YouTube, we'll be back with you

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