Pakistan cricket in crisis again: what next?

0:00Yeah, Gond, Gond, he gets his very tail ending. The epic way to go to a test match, 100. The London Spada first time, we lose. They might be a remarkable thing, you're probably ever seen, Craighead. Six on the London floor and final test wicked, the Stewart World. It's in this, when the T-20 World Cup. Can you believe it? Moments at the Stokes' International Careers coming to an end. Another wicked for this incredible cricket up. Okay, like New York, New York, so good they named it twice. Osman Samudin was so good last week, we've invited him back on to the podcast to talk about the circus. That is Pakistan Cricket, there's only really one topic this week. There's all calm on the England front, they've announced their squad, which is pretty much unchanged with no bride and cast. But us, it's all happening at your end, first of all, how was your week, Ben?

1:01I should imagine a busy one. You know what, I was thinking when the summer started, I thought, yeah, the New Zealand series, that would be a good one to watch, that would be great. And it would be tough, and it would be tight. And then I thought, Pakistan, well, they're not great, so it might actually be a really boring summer. Of course. I was a little bit wrong. It's been, yeah, it's been some week. It's been remarkable in many ways, actually, the way things have gone this week. I guess for those who are on Mars and don't really know what has happened, we should start with the basics really, maybe just outlined for those who are listening, tuning in, who don't know what's happened. They're kind of timeline and the key points of it all. So, you know, Pakistan, I'll start with the Lord's test. They played headingly, they lost that pretty badly. I thought they improved a little bit at Lord's, but they still ended up losing by 190 runs. You know, the weaknesses that we thought in that side where they were still there. Some improved performances, something to kind of take from it.

2:04But the series lost basically instigated the Pakistan-Crigged Board into, I still can't believe I'm saying this even though I've been saying it all week, but they called back seven players, two thirds of the way to the store. There's another test left. It's a dead rubber. They called back seven players who are part of this squad. And they've sent through another seven players, five of whom have, have, have, have, are uncapped at desk level. Um, two of whom have played a couple of desematches. Uh, and yeah, so now, next week, uh, your, your toss or one of you guys will do the toss with Barbara. And it's going to be slightly longer than what we thought it might be. Happeter, you are doing the toss. So, what's the 11 today, Barbara? I was, I was wondering that, Nass. Our, our work experience producer, who, which Schmuck will he put on the toss next week? Me, you or butch. But that's the habitable, any changes, Barbara. But she is back. So there we go with butch on the toss. He's excellent at it.

3:04Any changes, Barbara? What's happened in your week? So, I think, I think you described it. I mean, she'll very wrote. It's, um, the worst side Pakistan have sent over in 50 years. And you took that one stage further and you said, if that's the case, this, they are a product of the worst administration. I don't know how long back you want to go. Do you see this and what's happened this week as the worst bit of administration you have ever seen in Pakistan cricket? I think you make up your mind whether it was a high bar or a low bar. But, um, yeah, I wasn't quite sure. Yeah, you know, I mean, the last five years have been bad. I keep saying that it's not just this admin, but it's a successive, you know, by-law of bad administration from 2021, really. But, but I think something like this, I was racking my brain thinking when has something like this happened? The only, the only parallel I could recall, and it's not really even the same thing, but the only time I could recall was back in 2009 and 10.

4:05If you guys remember the infamous Sydney test in when Pakistan played Australia, you know, an unloosable test, Pakistan, of course, in true style managed to lose. They lost every single international match they played on that tour. So that's like 5D20s, 5 ODIs and 3 test matches. But even then, it was after the tour that the PCB, you know, instigated an inquiry, and it was an nasty inquiry. It was toxic and it was petty. I think it was a band, I think 7 players, so similar number of players. But, you know, even all that, as mad as it was, was at the end of the tour. So you finished the tour, you carried out whatever kind of investigation you wanted to carry out. And then there are bitterly banned, you know, people like UNESCO, who hadn't even played on that tour anyway. But this, to do it, do tests into a tour that you, a series that you've lost, you know, with one test to come, I think what it is, as I think, it's really sad to kind of think this. But, you know, it's almost like they're humiliating the players and they're trying to shift the blame from everything that's gone wrong off the field, purely onto the players.

5:07And that's terrible. I was, I was in particular, by the way, just yesterday, I came across this video of Salman Aliara, who had presented Ali Usman with his test cap. Four tests ago, at the first of the two test matches that they played against the West Indies. And it was actually a really genuinely lovely moment. Arag came up to him and said that, you know, I know you're going to be under a lot of pressure today, but you really got to try and remember to enjoy this day because this is what you've done. You know, this is what you've worked towards every single day of your life has built to this day. And so you've got to really try and enjoy it because the day like this is never going to come again. And I look at it now, like four tests later, both of them are supposed to be on the plane back apart this time. So, you know, Ali Usman hasn't done badly. He's actually done pretty well, but he's been sent back. I was just going to say that. I mean, I think it's pointless as analyzing every change they've made partly because a lot of the new players coming in are totally unknown to a, to an English audience.

6:07And, you know, they're so illogical the changes. But if you're not just an English audience, by the way. If you talk one, Ali Usman is the one to take. I mean, I've been so impressed with his bowling in the two test matches. Obviously, he quite long in the two making his debut at 33 in the Caribbean, albeit that spinners mature, can mature much later. He's played four test matches. He took six wickets in a test in the cap. The second test, yeah. And crew in the second test, which day one. He took five wickets at Leeds. The first overseas spinner to do that in over 50 years. Nobody seems actually malered a thing has done that. He didn't have much of a go at lords because it was such a seem dominated test. But even in the little bowling that he did do, I was struck by, you know, he's kind of flight and and accuracy and skill. And actually showed a bit of bottle with the batters where I thought.

7:08Yes, absolutely. Although, you know, maybe that's part of the reason why they want to rebalance their side, but they should have known that beforehand coming to a series where seem bowlers don't dominate. So you've got a guy there who's played four test matches played exceptionally well. What do you say to that guy now when he's dropped? How do you justify it? And that's just in microcosm, one little example, you know, that then you could you could spread out to others. No doubt. Well, I mean, and there's reports by all accounts that they didn't actually communicate to every single player that they were going back some of the players found out through social media and through through their family and friends sending them the press release on on WhatsApp, which is, you know, I mean, if you think about someone like Ali, like you said, 33 years old has probably spent the best part of 20 years of his life working to this moment in his life, you know, to play for Pakistan actually does well.

8:09And then maybe he's one of the guys that doesn't even get told that he's being sent back and he's being sent back and and he's not yet been sent back by the way. He was he was at the King's reception. The Pakistan team met the King yesterday. He was there in the background. The poor guy. There's there's players like Amir Jamal in a way, Zafar who didn't even play on this store and they've been sent back. I was I know you've been you've been protective of the players and rightly so because you know, it's it's it's classic how you don't build a team. I know we laugh and we joke, but Pakistan fans deserve a little bit better. Don't know. I mean, you look at the great teams. It's all about the greater purpose making the whole greater than the sum of his parts, whether it be Vivritards and Clive Lloyd with the West Indies and bringing islands together and seeing the greater cause and playing for the Maroon cap or the Australian great side under Steve war and the baggie green. That's how you create a side by making players feel wanted and a sort of ignominy of sending them home senior players like Muhammad Rizwan that okay, he's played a bad shot.

9:12A couple of bad shots, but he would have given his heart and soul for Pakistan cricket and you mentioned Ali Usman then getting that first cap and everything you go through to play for Pakistan all that does is for future however well they go. At edge, but and the players the coaches they will know the first time they fail that this may well happen to them the whole point of an administration is to alleviate pressure not more pressure this is a classic. Short term how you don't create something bigger than the sum of its parts I cannot see how an administration cannot see that I mean it may be a stroke of genius, but it has them worked in the past so why should it work now. It's not going to you know it really can some of the players coming through are there's players in there and you know absolutely no disrespect to them it's a great opportunity I guess to play for Pakistan but there's players who have played eight first class the moment in run junior one of the left arm quicks has played eight first class matches in the last four seasons.

10:14Simon you exceptionally talented except we give it has has made runs before has played two first class matches since 2023 you know so the you're bringing people in and you're setting them up to fail almost before they even get here and. I was going back to your point and as about you know building a team it's not like Pakistan have not seen a recent example of it they literally they were probably in as bad a position as as they've ever been in 2009 when the terror attacks happened the crumple in Pakistan they went to four captains that year. They ended up with mizba al-hawk at the end of 2010 as a captain he didn't have a great side with him you know people were mourning then about we have no talent we have this we have that and yet they gave mizba stability they gave him some you know kind of working relationships to selectors and mizba eventually built a team that went on to drop the ranking took six years but you know they put together a good side and so they've got this example of having fought back from a real low as recently as 2010. And yet here's another administration who thinks that you know by throwing players up the wall one of them might stick and we're going to pull it off anyway three months down the line if he doesn't do anything so yeah absolutely I just think it's a sign of an administration that doesn't know what it's doing at all with cricket.

11:27I mean it didn't stop there did it the the sending seven players home because ackee java then the day after kind of went on geo I think one of the broad castations and issued quite remarkable broadside really against against players and the team so it was the actions then we're backed up with with a fair bit of belong critics. This is now course bluntness and home truths can be given to a team but not in that public way or almost a shaming of the players and I wondered whether in the end as you said it is an attempt to shift all the focus onto the players but will there be a will it be counter productive in the end because all the comment obviously during a day's play players are held to account you know when we go on our broad cast the edge baston and the writers right will write about the cricket but in between times now it seems to me that the focus has actually moved away from the players to the administration so is there a chance that all this stuff will backfire for the administrators.

12:41I hope it's difficult to say you know the new cycle in Pakistan and anywhere really but in Pakistan it moves on so quick that you know the ackee java is interview yesterday is already yesterday is news in some ways and there's players who have come out kind of defending the move players I can't say that. I'm not saying the move players like Mohamed Yusuf have come out defending the move actually and and guys like Shahid Afridi have kind of said no this is wrong. I mean it says something when Shahid Afridi is saying that you've gone a little overboard right with these 10. It says like I love Shahid Afridi but you know he wasn't ever like a baston of stability and stuff but he's saying that you guys have gone a little bit overboard and I just feel like I hope they can kind of sustain you know whatever kind of anger and frustration there is with the way cricket is running and I hope I hope the board is going to be a little bit more I hope the board takes it on I hope the board realize that yes I've seen some comments recently about you know the board comparing these results to India losing to Ireland or and other and I think South Africa losing to Namibia the other day in a tea party series. That's just deflection it's not the same thing at all and I think instead what will happen after the store a lot of these players might actually end up losing their careers for a little while somebody like Imam al-Hak you know who's under as an investigation investigation for picking an injury.

13:55He he you know that they did scans on him in England there was proven to be a low grade. Carthere or you know whatever from that so just to say that we're going to do a further investigation on that I'm not sure what they're trying to achieve with that but they're trying to just double down on blaming the players and bringing in the new batch who then maybe they blame six months down the line after they played their two test matches against Sri Lanka and New Zealand this winter. I mean I want to touch on that in my thing and this is the exact quote from a keep javid who is the director of high performance which you may need to have a look at that terminology there a little bit but is direct quote was the imam injury is a big question mark and a deep disappointment players in the past used to get injuries but they used to put on cast and still try to play will take action against this how is it possible that a pool muscles rules you are about to. So I think that's a good thing in both innings he should have tried and fought we will have to face an inquiry I can't say he faked it but a muscle pull like that cannot stop you from batting all together I can't believe how a director of high performance could go on telly and literally throw rightly or wrongly you know he could have I mean Stuart Broad was very strong on the last morning when he was out doing throw downs and hobbling around get it and I do it in the indoor school but to throw him under the bus like that he's either in the middle of the day.

15:19He's either injured or he's not in any other touring slide we get upstairs we ask how's he mom doing he's got a great to scan and he will only back if needed I mean the whole handling of the imam situation is ridiculous and you know I just find that I keep javid there and generally you spoke about barba and you got to protect your players a little bit not constantly throw him under the bus. Yeah absolutely and now as actually you can see it makes sense why imam came out and did what he did that actually because he was probably thinking that if I don't do something I'm gonna get thrown under the bus here one way or the other and I should maybe I should come out and show that I was trying to play but I couldn't you know he didn't need to do that we all know that you know Stuart Broad was very harsh David Warner had to go he doesn't need second chance to kind of have a go at anyone but you know maybe maybe imam was thinking I should be able to do that. I'm thinking well in this environment do I need to show somebody that I'm actually trying to do something instead of just sitting instead of trusting the doctors instead of trusting the team doctors and the management maybe he thought well I think I need to do something guys because I haven't scored runs I have got an injury maybe I should show that I'm committed and you know I keep saying what he did it I mean what is that investigation going to prove.

16:41The other thing I'd say is another thing that I'll keep Jarvid said was that you know he's quote was we had to do something because the world is laughing us I may paraphrase a little bit I don't think that I don't think after headingly the world was laughing at Pakistan you know my rant on before a ball was bold in the second test at lords when it was raining on that first morning about them not being mercurial about them not fighting back about India Pakistan games been very one sided and there are a lot of things going on. I'm sorry I'm not talking about the poor side plane poorly that rant wasn't laughing and that was our frustration of this great Pakistan side that we've seen played against we keep putting out film rooms of Wacar and wazim e the it's on the foot foot on the head you know Sally mallet getting hundreds of in Z getting runs of side and while you know commentated on champions trophy wins at the over it's a frustration of seeing this great cricketing nation. Where it is now and fact what they have done now is make him into a laughing stock what they've done in the last two days is is laughable so I think a lot of the criticism was out of frustration and where this Pakistan side of got to to be honest and they made it even worse in the last couple of days.

17:58I think I think that the criticism had come from a place of care like you know people cared about Pakistan being a bit side because Pakistan did unique things on the cricket field there are histories testament to that there were a side like no other the produce players like no other and and the produce moments on the field regularly like no other side good and I think. The thing that people didn't realize was that that criticism from you know shield shield species or Tim Big Mordid a piece in the telegraph as well your your little clip did they all came from places of care that this was a once great cricket nation which has you know floundered over the last four or five years and it's kind of becoming irrelevant and what you don't want is for Pakistan to become irrelevant and then you know having kind of double down on the fact that the criticism was misplaced and all this then they went into this and you know I think was one Fajah at the end of the year. So actually responded to somewhere on on the vast toxic waste that is social media I think was one Fajah responded to a post that we had put up on cricket for with a kid's quote about you know the world was laughing at us and he said exactly what you're saying as he said that well we're laughing hard harder now than we have for before.

19:16It's game on now with 1500 matches this season from the Premier League WSL the EFL and the Scottish Premiership you can stream in minutes and with flexible plans you can have it your way now that is well class streamed sky sports on now today. 18 plus UK only brought up on 2.5 megabits per second required full time supply. Where does it all leave barbarism this week is captain of this sinking you know he he came in for a lot of scoring criticism as well for that dismissal to Joffra it was a good ball he didn't play well but it was a good ball he didn't play well it happens but I think you know looking at the mood of the players when they went they went to a reception at the box on high commission. The other day after the test match and then they went to meet the king of course yesterday I think it was they I mean you can only tell so much from pictures and photographs and stuff but but it looked it looked plum it looked me bothered in look there was some rumors about Barbara being unwell fever and maybe that might affect the stances you know test match is still like a just under a week away so it's not going to affect the stances but I think there there's now.

20:37I probably a case being built within the PCB that if box on lose this test match in a best which is you know eminently plausible because they haven't one so far and they've now got a weaker team. Then that might you know spell the end of of Barbara's career because that's the way this administration works is that the only way they they know how to do it is to come down hard on the players and punish them by kicking them out of the team removing from the captain see you know stuff like that so it wouldn't be a surprise to me if box on lose this test match and Barbara doesn't score. They say well you know we've had enough of you and you had your run and you haven't scored a century for since December 2022 you should be out it wouldn't surprise me at all and he's going to be playing the saddest thing is that he's you now got this entire week and then the best match with that very much firmly at the forefront of his mind. I mean I thought you ask about Barbara's position then where does it leave him I mean should should Barbara I know if me or you are captain I can't speak for you but I would find it very difficult to do it. I would find it very difficult to knock on some of those you know couple of lads who haven't even played in the series and say you're going home and they could turn to you and say you put me for the series and played wise you know I'll lose man knock on his door when you've been putting your arm round him for a few test matches now say come on I'm here for you and then he gets you wickets and you knock on his door and saying you're going home mate I mean part of leadership is trust and loyalty in both directions.

22:02I think why ask the question really because like you I feel it's a horrible position for a captain to be in and I suppose what I'm getting at is what kind of authority does Barbara or indeed the captain of Pakistan have in this in this outfit what one understands that you know any captain is not all powerful these days you're not going to go back to the days of you know captains of 30 years ago who who perhaps what all of the captain is going to be in the series. I think that's what I think is going to be a good one for you who perhaps what all powerful and run the show but it. Accounting's got to have some authority within a within a team and it seems to me that given what's happened how do you how do you lead that team now how when the players are looking at you it seems to me that's a completely horrible position for a captain to be in. I've played against some of the players who are coming in some of the players might be coming to that side I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't know that much about them and and there's been a little bit about you know how there's been a little bit just doing the rounds about maybe the players being unhappy with Barbara but it's not in his hands which is the key thing it wasn't in Shanmussud's hands before this you know you'll remember when you are out in Pakistan and they had the archipelago pitches after the 800 moves on or whatever and that wasn't in Shanmussud's hands.

23:23I mean in fact that shows that complete or people can occasionally work you know they went to this spin fest and it worked they won the series to one but those are those are kind of things that can work in the short term that is no way veering from one extreme to the other is no way to build a long term vision or plan or strategy and that was still like I that was still a proven method of success right you knew that if you really produced. These kind of pitches you have a couple of spinners who can still run through a side and England then have the greatest spinners then this is you know this is your literally throwing new players into the mix who have not played international cricket before and you're telling Barbara that you've got to manage this and if you lose it then well you know we've changed a few captains and you know who are you. I mean you've stated that this the worst administration that you've seen what was the best administration you've been around Pakistan cricket forever what what would you say is a period where off the field there was a calmness and sensibility in a well run Pakistan administration and board.

24:32Yeah you know I really want to stress this one glad you are really want to stress this point that it's not just this administration I keep saying it's a pylon from the last few but I would say I'd have to go back probably to the two stints of sherry archan in first in the early 2000s and then in the mid 2010s when he in the second time he worked with with Najam sati and there was you know then there was at least. It was a recognizable functioning cricket board and you know there were disagreements between the top players there and and the top kind of officials of the time not everything went right but I think very broadly speaking they understood that they had a duty of care towards the players towards the domestic system underneath you. Sherry archan was did not like t20 cricket at all he was very much a traditionalist old school did not like t20 cricket cricket yet in his time in his two stints we had first in 2003 the t20 cup the AB and Amro t20 cup which was you know just after the the blast or what it was known as then I forget the name now but he just after that so it was a pioneering tournament and then in 2016 again despite not liking t20s he he was there when when the PSL was born.

25:51You know so he he was a pragmatic man he knew ultimately that attention has to be paid to the game in box on to its players to take care of them they made mistakes they had missteps they were controversies you know sherry archan was the the oval test ball tampering controversy within the mom there there you know things went wrong but you could sense that they genuinely care about the cricket they know about the game. And they have they respect the players and they respect the fact that only if you have a working domestic setup will you actually have players come out to the top side I probably point to his two stints one with Najam sati who's you know still around. Sherry archan passed away of course but those two stints in the 2000s I would say are probably the most functioning least bad administrations of Pakistan cricket that I've come across. If if if something remarkable happens next week and Pakistan being Pakistan and they go back to being Mac Mac

27:10but it will do longer term to go back to all the points that have been made in this podcast really it's no way to manage players and no way to build a long term vision at all and I think it's unlikely that will happen at edge bas and of course cricket's a strange game many unusual things have happened so I think we all the hope for a competitive game and an interesting game to call on but I don't think in this instance the end would justify the means of the game. And therefore what about the foreign coaches osman you know these guys keep taking the jobs here with Pakistan whether it's Gary Kirsten or Jason Gillespie in this instance Mike Hesseen why do they do it. You know I was also so the PCV had approached Mike Hesseen who was of course the white ball coach they had actually approached him back in Jan to say that you know we what about the best job as well because they were looking for somebody at the time they were in the interim position and and he had not agreed to it because he didn't take it on he had no agree so there must have been reason back in Jan why he didn't take it on and I think it was because he wanted this bifurcation or you know the white ball team and the red ball team and.

28:28And that's something that's reflected in the central contract system that's coming into Pakistan at some point soon which is actually a decent one because they're trying to put down some clarity on you know what player plays what and not stopping them for playing all formats but kind of you know prioritizing the formats that they want and I think Hesseen was very much a part of that and and he wanted that bifurcation and now he finds himself in a situation where he's also the red ball coach it's I guess he was in a position where he couldn't have said no I'm guessing you know he is. If you're asked and you're already the white ball coach of this administration and you're asked to become the red ball coach it's difficult to say no in that situation Lord knows what he's going to think because I think Pakistan is fast losing one of the things that has happened over the last year in the way they've particularly in the way they've treated Gary Kirsten who remember was dismissed as a white ball coach despite not having coached a single ODI in his tenure and he was just based and I think one of the things that has happened is that Pakistan has lost a lot of good will with foreign

29:28coaches and foreign players nobody's going to want to come in for parts and really like to you know they're lucky they had hasn't already in but I can't see anyone out there right now who if the BCB went up to them and said hey do you want to do you want to be white red ball coach of our side I can't see anyone in their right minds who would say yes to that job right now. It interests me that the under 19s are here at the moment actually because I think we often say and we hear people who know Pakistan cricket better than we do that the talent is there in the system still and if that is the case then clearly all hope is not lost you know new administration comes in or whatever somebody can put things back on an even keel and let the talent flourish and not not be wasted. It seems to me that we ought to be keeping a little eye on that under 19 series as well just to see what standard your comparative under 19 players are at because if it's if there is good as England or whoever at that point but then after being in the system you know the gap develops that's a very clear sign of the malaise in the administration if you like or the system or the structure.

30:44Do you have hopes for the i'm not expecting you to have intimate knowledge of every under 19 play it by the way but would you have hopes that at that level still the talent is there. Yeah absolutely by Pakistan the under 19 teams recent under 19 teams have not done badly they they've competed there's good talent coming out from there they beat India in the Asia Cup final I think last year in which vibe of Syria when she was playing you know they've got some good bullies there Ali Razah is one they've got bull. But you know the one. Funnily enough to one post I've seen about the under 19 team in England is pointing out that one of their bowlers one of the young bullers up those from Han I think was was in the middle of a 12 over spell. And somebody then pointed out that you know that age maybe you should be bowling well over spells as a fast baller because you should be controlled in how much you do so that immediately set off a lot of my head that you even if he is good. Maybe he's going to pick up an entry bowling something like a longer spell on a 19 for so do they have that sense the kind of manage I don't think they do right now.

31:48But I don't think yeah I don't think it's true that there is no talent there are the under 19 team has not been a bad side and somebody like suffer as actually who was under 19 coach before they kind of pushed him up to the head coach somebody like suffer as it is a good guy to work with the under 19 set up because you know he's shown. As an on field captain he's had a history of bringing teams together bringing young players together he was captain of the 2017 champions trophy side in which there were a lot of young PSL players who were coming through and so you know that's actually his natural kind of habit that that's where he should be and and I hope he goes back I think there's some talk about maybe him going back to that but if you have somebody like him. Then you have a little bit of hope that he can bring through a good crop of players until of course you know they come into the national team and then all that's are off. Well this may be a difficult question to answer but I've said their administration might change you get the feeling that Pakistan fans have had enough of the way their team and their board administrates things. How does it how does I'm not talking about directors of high performance or coaches or captain talking about people above how does that change come about in Pakistan cricket.

32:58Or narrowly we would have been beyond that point of change you know the results had been the way they have been over the last couple of years we would have had a change of chairman we would have a change of top officials at the board sometime back. But I think the way the political situation right now is in the country with you know the current chairman is effectively the civilian kind of leader of the country he's not the leader but he is the most influential figure in that political setup right now and so even though theoretically the prime minister of the country has a say in the appointment or removal of chairman. I don't think that's going to happen in this case because you know there's an imbalance in where Moss and Nukhri is in where Shabashirif is. It's difficult to see how that change comes and you wonder that you know if results are this bad and there's no change coming then where do you go like how low is low how long is a piece of string you don't really know so. I honestly as like cannot see when and how that change is coming I just know that it has to come or something has to change in the way you know the board operates whether that's you know them changing their own ways or being removed or whatever but something has to happen quick because like I said.

34:05Like I said on the podcast last week as well I think we're at a real tipping point right now for the game in the country. Yeah that that was going to be my final question to you really I got a. A text from a mutual friend all as the other day saying this is the worst he said we've gone through many things before you know. Exile after the terrorist attack on the Sri Lankan team boss spot fixing crises he said this is the worst I mean would you agree with that that it is absolutely. Crisis point. 100% I mean I covered I was in box on I intimately covered 2006 to 2010 when we had you know ball time praying doping bands. The terror attacks and ended up with the with the fixed spot fixing here in England I covered that and but every step of the way. I felt like there are you know there are players and there are people in the system who still want the system to work. Want the game to kind of thrive and they're going about it the wrong way but it's still going to happen but but right now I just don't see you know I.

35:11The amount of frustration that has been created among fans there this fans you were saying earlier about you know what what happens if Pakistan wins at a test. I've never come across so many fans as I have in the last few days who have said that they're actively scared of box on winning at a test because it's going to it's going to you know make all this look good and people don't want that so. It is the worst time I've seen them in and it is you know we're getting to a point there's lots of other things in play here you know the PSL the worries about the PSL the worries about the domestic system all of that is kind of just. Just kind of falling in and collapsing on each other to create this one massive like I say tipping point now where if something doesn't happen soon then. You know we've seen it before with hockey with you know with other sports you just you just kind of wish and hope and pray that it doesn't go down that way but I just can't see how we're stopping that right now. Well that's a grim note to end on which we don't want to particularly end on a grim note because I think your point earlier about the criticism coming from a place of care is an important one to make actually because you know myself a nest played through the 1990s and I think.

36:23I think we both feel that it was a struggle for England in that decade one of the great glories of playing in that decade in international cricket was the strength across the board there was a hardly a week team there were emerging teams teams going through their gold and age like Zimbabwe and obviously a number of outstandingly strong teams of which Pakistan was one and I think we both hope that the international game can get back to that kind of strength in debt so you know it does come from a place of care. I think it's across the Pakistan can re-emerge again us otherwise we'll be having you on week after week after week as a guest and this is supposed to be our podcast not because anyway thank you very much for coming on again and putting it all in some kind of historical and current context and we'll see your edge best and I hope. I hope hopefully yes you've not been sent home or anything like that not yet not yet might be yeah we'll hope for a competitive game up there.

37:47Have you seen how many matches they've got this season they're all just too busy fine I'll do it myself. Sky Sports have got 1500 live matches this season search get Sky Sports to find out more that's not bad you know. No I could get on the telly don't push it well there goes that dream.