Nobody can define ‘working class’ any more

0:00This is a global production. Hello and welcome to another instalments of my daily podcast, full of the best bits of news, discussion and discoveries from my LBC show. It is, I think, you would probably allow me. One of the things I care most about in society and our society, social mobility, the idea that you can live a life that is not defined by the circumstances of your birth. And there have been a boy yet again with my back story, as it were, my origin story, as the kids would call it. But it doesn't make me a saintly person or any holier than now. I just have, in my personal history, events that often make me wonder how my life would have gone if I hadn't had some or all of the advantages that I have had, whether they are emotional, as in love and support

1:00and a beautiful family or educational, or even material. You know, never really, I'm never ever having to worry about the most basic needs and never really having to worry about most of the fairly relatively luxurious ones. So it is for me one of the key differences between people. I have that phrase in my mind. I think, you know, this is going to sound like a terrible name drop, but instead of that, I'd like you to consider an advertisement for a forthcoming episode of Full Disclosure. So I was with Francis Fukuyama of all people the other day. And he was talking about the thing that perhaps he finds most frustrating. And he's spent his entire life trying to work out how the world works in the hope of improving it. And he's been on the right old journey, working for the kind of neo-cons at one point before having a complete reversal over the Iraq war. Anyway, I don't want to spoil the episode of Full Disclosure. He's the guy that came out with a phrase, the end of history. So if you don't recognize the name, you probably recognize the work.

2:03But he was talking to me the other day about the thing he finds most frustrating in the world is people who don't seem to even acknowledge or understand the advantages that they have had. And the Americans came up with the best phrase ever for it, didn't they, which we've adapted on this program for fans of football, as opposed to soccer or baseball. So they say he thinks he scored... He was born on third base, but he thinks he scored a triple of which the British equivalent would be. He was born three-nil up and he thinks he scored a hat trick. And almost some out of efforts. I think a lot of the laziest right wing thinking comes from this place or ends up in this place. The determination to believe that we are sort of faded or that there's a genuine meritocracy in place in this country. And if you enjoy things that other people don't enjoy, you genuinely deserve them. And then a little less comfortably, those other people over there genuinely don't. So it's why people, when they're talking perhaps about VAT on school fees, insist that they work jolly hard. They work very hard.

3:04And there's a sort of implicit suggestion there that people who can't afford to send their children to fee paying schools, which is around about 90% of the population give or take, don't work very hard. But somehow if you're toiling away on minimum wage six days a week, you're choosing a life of indolence and therefore denying your children the finest education money can buy. It's bonkers, right? But it underpins so much. Almost all of the right we mean. You're dedicated to the idea of protecting privilege and advantage. And of course the key is to persuade the people who haven't got it to go into battle on behalf of the people who have. Which is the point that Anir and Bevin made in, I think, with unparalleled power. 80 odd years ago he simply talked about that the entire point of conservative politics in this country is to persuade poverty, well, it's wealth, to persuade poverty, to use its political power to keep wealth in power. If you look at the percentage of GDP that has been spent on welfare, for example,

4:10you'll realize that all of the talk at the moment about explosions in it is absolute nonsense. Similarly, Anthony's already been in touch this morning to say, James, why does everyone willfully misunderstand what the prime minister said? Anthony, they're critiquing every white wing outlet, white wing, every right wing out, it's a bit Freudian, every right wing outlet. In the country, Andy Burnham said yesterday that he's going to increase military spending, but not by making people homeless. Cue the outrage. Hold the front page. He's going to increase military spending. I think I prefer it personally if he'd hurry up with his spending review and announce it, but he was pretty clear in the PMQ's that I was listening to, although I genuinely know that Camille Baderna understood this. I think she heard the word social security and her brain started boiling. Andy Burnham is going to increase defense spending in order to undo the mess that he's inherited from, that him and Keir Starmer inherited from the Tories, and he is adamant that he's not going to do it by making people homeless. That's it. That's the story. That's the policy. That's Burnham National Security.

5:12Can't come at the expense of social security. Camille Baderna, touring the studios this morning to explain her utter incredulity and she couldn't believe her is, which are all slightly long-winded ways of saying, I don't really understand what's going on here. He said social security. I, blah, blah, blah, boo, boo, boo, down with that sort of thing. He should be making people homeless in order to buy more bombs or something. I find it all extraordinary, but it all underpins the concept in this country of class, the way in which we label ourselves and label each other in sort of tribes and categories. And when I read today, I think for the first time, although you'll probably drop me a little note and say, actually, James, this isn't the first time you've had this thought. You had it on the 17th of June, 2017. I read this morning about Bridget Phillips and setting up a class unit and ditching social mobility advisors. So a rejig, if you like, of the social mobility commission.

6:13That is being abolished. It currently advises ministers on tackling inequality in England. And Bridget Phillips and the equality minister will bring the government's efforts to tackle this advantage in house. It's not her words that caught my eye this morning. It's the words of Alan Francis, who is the outgoing chair of the soon-to-be-abolished commission. And he described class or class, or as Elaine pointed out, I am alienating my listeners in the West country by saying class or class and leaving class out of the conversation entirely. So class or class, he describes it as a messy concept around which to organize policy. So I say to you, the government is going to help children from poorer backgrounds, or children from working class backgrounds, or children from even perhaps white working class backgrounds, because some of Bridget Phillips and comments and some of the statistical research suggests that that category of child is most likely to have been left behind.

7:17Improving outcomes for white working class people will be a focus, but government sources have said it will not be a dedicated white working class unit. I don't know what it means. I mean, I know what poorer means, and I know that the people who are in the business of persuading poverty to use their political power to protect wealth, like to pretend that poverty doesn't exist, or even that nobody's poor, or that if anybody is poor, it's because they're lazy, and that you don't need to be poor, because you can just go on benefits and live the life of Riley in return for doing nothing all day. I mean, the rhetoric is extraordinary, isn't it? Once you once you start that ball rolling, God knows where it stops, but I don't know what it means. The government is putting class at the heart of its equality's agenda. I don't know what that means. And I know what white means. I'm not convinced that ethnicity is particularly helpful in these kind of contexts, because although they might be a statistical significance on a national level, if you're in a classroom, then the kids who most need help are probably going to come from a

8:22variety of backgrounds. When you've got ineluctible evidence of racism, for example, in schools, which is the reason why young black boys, for example, are underperforming. Then, of course, you need to direct your attention to that specific issue. But white working class, I understand I understand one of those words, because we're all working. How many people do you know who don't need to work? Not because they're living the mythical life of Riley on welfare, but because they don't need to work. They've got enough money. They've made enough money. They've inherited enough money. They've banked enough money. They've saved enough money to not need to work. Even people who've got extraordinary, lavish lifestyles in relative terms need to work to sustain them to keep the ship afloat, to pay the mortgage on the mansion, or to pay the finance on the Ferrari. You need to work. You could probably cut your cloth massively reduce your lifestyle and be okay without working, but you choose and you prefer to work. So, are you working class?

9:29Of course, you're not working class under any meaningful interpretation of the phrase, but under a literal interpretation of the phrase, then you are. You are part of the working class. Do you need to work to live the life that you are living? Yes. So, what does it actually mean? What does it mean to you? What does working class mean to you? Does it mean anything other than poor? And is it going to be possible to identify working class children who need help? And what about a middle class kid with this legs here? What about the son of a tof who's in the state education system for various reasons and needs enormous amount? Do you see what I mean? What's the relationship between class and poor performance in school? That's the first question, right? Is what does it mean to you? And from there, we move to the question perhaps of why working class children

10:31or indeed white working class children. So, that word, which is easy to understand, although, of course, it will include Eastern European kids, it will include English kids, it will include kids from all sorts of Northern European or American backgrounds, but white working class. Why are they currently performing worst in school? Because I'm going to cautiously suggest to you. I really like the idea of social engineering. It's another one of those phrases that has been turned into a dirty word by the people who've got all the advantages and... Oh, it's social engineering. Sorry, what does that mean? What it means that they're trying to improve the lives of people who haven't been born into privilege. It's a disgusting thing to do. It's practically communism. It's social engineering. You saw it yesterday with social security. Andy Burnham wants to prioritize social security. What does social security mean? It means people in society feel secure. It means that prioritising the security of members of your society is something that

11:31he believes his government should do. So, he also believes in national security. He's just not going to make people homeless to pay for increased spending on defence. Social engineering, down with that sort of thing. Why should we be trying to make people better? Why should we be trying to improve the lives of people who haven't been born into privilege? And you see what I mean? I know what I mean when I use words like advantage and privilege, but I don't know what I mean when I use words like class. And maybe I'm a bit lazy. Maybe I'm a bit kind of... I agree very on this. So, I haven't really thought deeply enough about it, but I know what under-privileged looks like. I know what under-representation looks like. I know what poverty looks like, whether it's relative or abject. But I don't know what working class means in this context. I do know that it's misused horribly at the moment as a synonym for racist, usually by middle class or upper-class people who spend their lives chucking oysters and champagne in private members clubs around Mepha, while claiming to be men of the people with a £5 million check poking out of their back pocket that they didn't think it was necessary to tell anybody about. They're the real champions

12:37of the working class. So, it gets used as a synonym for racist, white working class means you hate people who aren't white. That's utter horsemenial. But it's quite a popular position to hold at the moment. But even that, I know what does it actually mean? Because I've got a very sneaking suspicion and I don't like it that Bridget Phillipsen doesn't really know either. And that this is genuinely opportunistic politics. What are you going to do? We're going to help the working class. What does that mean? I don't know. I mean, everybody knows what it meant. No, they don't. I don't. What does it actually mean? And if we get even halfway to an understanding of what we mean when we use those words, how would you help a child in that category, in a school, in a classroom? Teachers might be able to help with that. Or is it just possible that it's now in 2026 a complete red herring and largely meaningless? I really, really hope you'll join in on this one. Because social

13:40mobility is so important and because improving outcomes is so important and because it's one of the things you'd expect a Labour government to do and because as a great supporter of both the idea and of the Labour movement, I've just got a suspicion that I don't want or like that this is a load of old tut. Time for a short break now. After that, that's more than enough from me. It's over to you. Chris is in Bathgate. Chris or Bathgate actually. Chris, what would you like to say? I was more interested in the white working class statement. I used to work in disability for very large children's terracing and we had a diversity in equality department. Obviously, because we used to look after children of multiple ethnicities, very inclusive organisation.

14:41What was noticed, and this was actually noticed by the manager of the diversity and equality department who worked in self-pacistanis and what he noticed was that a lot of the children of minority within the charity did actually get a lot more support than the white children, which was interesting. In what way? In what way? So social support. So obviously we're dealing with social workers, social support, disability support. So for people who don't know what that means, just tell us what it means in terms of the things that you would get on a Monday or a Tuesday. Oh, so it could be housing, financial support, it could be home support with the child because we dealt a lot with learning difficulties and disability. It could be social support, it could be nursing support, but that would all get organised through social worker you see. So not the charity that he worked for? Well, yeah, through the charity's connections with the social services.

15:41And what definition would they have used or would you have used for working class? Well, as a lot of these families struggle to work because obviously... So that's the first confusion, isn't it? So in all of the lot of the children that we're talking about today might come from families where there isn't any work. So working class becomes trippily difficult to unpick. Are we just talking about poverty? I think we are, yeah. And if you're talking about linguistic support, then obviously a child with ethnic minority parents who may not have perfect English is going to need things that a child from a Scottish or an English native background is not going to need. So there'd be elements of this. But I'm trying to work out, so there you go, that's one way in which white children will not receive support that ethnic minority children receive because they don't need translators. But what? Well, but talking about why, so I mean, that would actually include Polish. Well, they would get translators as well. So they would be a white child, getting exactly the support that the other ethnic minority child was getting. But let's not get distracted from...

16:45Let's not... Okay, okay, that's very bad. And also illegal. So I hope it's been dealt with now. What I want you to tell me, and you may not be able to, but what this phone in is about, is very simply what it means working class. I think working class is anybody who's able to work. Well, that's me, though. Who needs? Who needs working class. I'm the well-safed public school educated working class hero. Absolutely. Well, that's not meaningless, because that's not what Bridget Phillips in is talking about, is it? When she says we're going to help working class children. If you, I mean, even talking from a personal standpoint, I'm working class, but I can't work full-time because I have health issues that prevent me from working full-time. And actually trying to get employment that suits my health issues is very, very difficult. So I'm always on the breadline always struggling. I'm very sorry to hear that, but who are the children that you think Bridget Phillips and is talking about? I suppose you're everyday family who struggles to work,

17:53who is working or struggling to work. And that's everybody. And, you know, respectfully. I've said that we're not going to get dictionary definitions, but she clearly doesn't mean everybody. She doesn't mean me. She doesn't mean that the children and families like mine. She is talking about working class children. And the guy who used to head up the commission that she's abolishing has suggested that it's too messier concept to build government policy around. And intentionally or not, I think you've just proved it. It is, I mean, it could be a ridiculous concept in 2026 to talk about working class or class as a category of children that are easily identifiable. And therefore, able to give help to. Joe's in Cambridge, Joe, what would you like to say? I agree, James. I dislike the terminology intensely and always have done. I think it's confusing. I think it means different things to different people. And we end up arguing about what it means. I don't that we should use working classes ridiculous, just doesn't make sense. Your background is in this

18:54field, I think, or closer. Yeah, yeah. I was director of education for an inner city local authority. I was going back a few years now and then worked for a national charity with its schools, working particularly with youngsters who had particular learning beats or particular disabilities. But it can be misused and abused as a term. And it polarises the view. It's straight away gets you to try and associate or disassociate from the terminology if you want to. It's far more about aspirations of the family, the education, history of the family, the wealth of the family, the community that they're living in, the deprivation they've got, the disabilities they may or may not have, local health provision that they may or may not have, including mental health, but also physical health. And that can, you can have wealth and poor health and that will be affected. Is it entirely, does it mean anything? It's an excuse for me. It's an excuse that can be used

19:57to label people and to be negative about people. I think it has negative connotations to some people ways to other people. They're very proud of perhaps what it means. But neither of them could tell you what it meant. No, they can't. Whether you're proud of it or whether you're using it as a majority, you couldn't actually, I think the last call, the demonstrated perfectly, you think you've got a clear idea of what it means and you've got absolutely no idea. No, and when I was working in this particular area for a local authority, there was no doubt that it was in a large area of this city where, and I'm using the phrase I don't like, but it was the phrase that was used, white working class, the children of white working class parents often in certain situations were those that were achieving the least. Nothing's changed. That's quick done back 20 years. So the lowest achievers, the children of the lowest achievers would be the children who most need help. Yeah, and even then they'd got parents and even grandparents who'd never done a day's work according to the data. I may be misquoting. But that's, I mean, there's an

20:58ill-uptable logic to that, isn't there, that those children, they can't be what they don't see, they are going to be the ones who most need help and you identify them by looking at their, so it's the non-work. So the best definition we've got of working class is children from a non-working family. Yes. Or at least the best definition we've got of the children most in the need of help in school, which is the people that Bridget Phillips and is targeting and choosing to describe as working class. So the children from the families where there's no work, this is insane. Is it actively damaging to the... I think so. And you believe this since you were a director of education in schools in an inner city? I'd believed it since I was a head teacher in the in the city school before them. What's the alternative? What does improvement look like? Ooh, it's a complete... That's not your job, is Bridget Phillips and does that? Well, it's a really important job, a really important question. And again, I don't know how we address it because we are a country that is broken in some respects, our education system is broken in some respects, in that there are the extremes from independent, you can buy what you've got

22:00because of your wealth. And sometimes you think you're buying something that's better than it actually is, but you are buying networking. And exam grades, of course. Yeah, but not always do exam grades make a difference because your parents have got money and power in networking, bacon, as we know from members of our royal family, you can actually get university education without the grades that people who don't have that. Of course, of course, you can. Or if you're what's his job's to be young, you can get your dad to phone up and also college off, that you've fluffed your A levels and he'll ease your passage into Oxford, which, a perfect example of someone born 7-0 up, we think they've scored two and a bit hatry. It's thank you, Joe. Well, yeah, it's heartbreaking though, isn't it? Because everybody wants to see the people that most need help, get help, but you've got to begin by defining who they are and we can't. The mark, what are you reckon? I've got to know if this is how to define working class, but I've taught in schools with vulnerable kids for most of my career. We have ways of identifying the children who need additional

23:02support in school, which is, you know, have they ever had free school meals over the past so many years? Have they ever been in the care system? Are they on the special needs register? Or have they got an education health and care plan? So you can have just a paraphrase because I know you know a lot about this, not everybody listening will do. You can have a quite a well-to-do middle-class child who's got an ECHP and equally, if a child has been on free school meals, then we're really just categorising the financial status of the family that they come from. So the phrase working class is meaningless in this context. In a way it is. And I think as well later in life, when children are going to university, for example, the funding that they receive depends on the parent salary or whether the parents have been to higher education and you know, those kind of indicators come into play. So maybe they could be used to do this. I don't know if it wider identification in the area that they're doing. But then it's always pound signs and you will then

24:02but then you have the family and obviously a good teacher like you will be able to spot this from a hundred miles away. You will always have the family that hasn't got, you know, two pennies to rub together but are absolutely dedicated to providing their children with a rich in a life and an educational environment. I'm still going to Gary Kemp from Spandale Valley the other day for a forthcoming full disclosure and his dad, his late father, was clearly absolutely dedicated to ensuring that his children received the kind of education that he didn't and that would be. And they were absolutely working class but they would not, I mean his brother would not have needed any special treatment when they got to school. Yeah, you agree, I agree. I think the school system has got ways in place at the moment and that could be enhanced and improved. So I identify the children that need more support, whether whatever. Just stop maybe just stop calling them working class. I don't know what we'd call them instead but we're talking about a whole gamut of criteria, some of which will be financial, some of which will be health, some of which will be

25:06domestic and none of which really are contained within within this categorisation. Have you ever worked to Older Hill? No, but I worked around the corner from there now. I thought you might do. That's where my old mate went and we've actually set up a charity in his memory to help children get into the creative professions who wouldn't ordinarily have been able to because they haven't got the contacts which is another thing we could put on the list of when we're trying to improve representation, you haven't got the contacts, you haven't got the inns by the time you're getting to 16, 17 or 18, no one's helping you understand what doors exist and what paths you might go down and that's class-based as well. Yeah that's all wise network isn't it? Yeah absolutely is the old boys network trying to sort of invent our own or create one for kids from backgrounds very different from ours. Thank you Mark. Fooom is in Islington, Fooom what would you like to say? Working class to me can be defined by a family having to live with barely any savings or equity in their lives. So I think a lot of people talk about working class being a cultural thing. Yeah.

26:08But actually living that kind of life becomes intensely practical and if you're a child in school with parents who are living that kind of life where they're hustling so hard just to stay afloat and you're in tight upbringing for when you're born up to when you say secondary school it's defined by the reference points your parents set. If you bring up kids and you know if you don't have the equity and the flexibility and life and you're a child experiencing that on the practical level you're going to think what the point right it reduces your aspiration because life is brutal which we live a life with no savings. So it is as simple as poverty and deprivation. I'm not simple. I want a better word than simple but but that is what we mean when we use this phrase or what Bridget Phillips and means when she uses this phrase. All the things that are talked around are how to call outcomes from having to live a life with no savings right.

27:08And what that does to an identity I mean very commonly you get people that say they're working class that have done well because they have got lucky at life but they will still feel working class. Yeah. Right. So I was born suddenly under class. I got very lucky in education and that worked under training for them in the commercial bank in investment banking. I still feel working class because of the way I was brought up and the environment I was brought up in because they're instincts obviously that last so you're resting your life. Your children if you have any would not be working class. That's true. That is absolutely true. I have a child and listen to a very comfortablement of class environment. And why then don't we just say poor or poorer? Because it doesn't describe the actual mechanism and it's dead. No, but it does because you can't say working class because that would include you. And you know that it might be true sort of historically but as a social term as a category

28:12mobility makes it largely useless. You talk to identify the children who most need help. The thing you look at is the financial situation at home. I don't know if you look at me. I'm also we're talking about children. Children brought up in an environment at school age where both parents have no equity and a hard life and living that on a daily basis. You're absorbing everything that your parents have to go for in their structures of life having to stay or slow. That gets fused into your identity and I think that's why needs at the moment are struggling as well. Because of the quantity of easing unless you've got assets and equity or investable money you're working really hard just to stay afloat. Would just stay just below the surface and you think what is the point of this? I might as well live a kind of desiccated liminal existence where I'm disengaged from the world because engaging with it is not going to improve my experience sufficiently to justify the effort that

29:14it involves. That's why I think there's a lot of right-wing reactionary anger out there because you look at the world and if you're in the working, when I used to be politically active locally and you used to get the middle classes of easington telling me what the working class were like and I used to get angry about it because if you go to if you live in ethics and the working class right you can see for productably it's a conservative kind of because of the idea of hustling for your own value because if you live as an environment where you have to work that hard to get any kind of equity right it's a harsh environment than it is and so to and under. So you can't you can't change your class or you can't change your background but you can change a child's prospects and experiences through what I'm going to describe as social engineering but I've explained I consider that to be a good thing. How do you spot these children in a classroom? I think it's you have to have lived it to spot it. Well that's the first problem then. Yes absolutely

30:19that's why I think there's a disconnect or there was a disconnect between the classical in its its a labor voter and the voices of the working class and that's why I think you know credit to Andy Burnham who's briefed that gap by using a language because he's not bringing with me to the comfort. No I also you know don't forget my enemies enemy is my friend not not my enemy so if you've got someone living in comparative luxury in islington who wants to improve the lot of the less fortunate that's better than having someone living in comparative luxury who doesn't absolutely I'm here to defend the islington socialists. I know but they're good people. They are good people. Yeah but what they don't they can't like you know I'm an ethnic minority as well right it's really hard to tell people who are anti racist and liberal what it feels like practically could be an an ethnic minority on a daily basis. Yes. Right because they're very cool for them. They only engage that part of their brain when it talk about it and it's the same with poverty

31:20but they are the policy makers. Yeah and no one really has a problem under step nobody honest has a problem understanding what poverty is or how real it is and you've done a brilliant job of of of making it feel real for people who don't have any personal experience and sometimes you know the examples that some of the charities provide of people not being able to afford certain things and best understood of literally running out of money before you run out of month and that creates an atmosphere a myasma of misery and stress that is going to affect children but when they get to school we've established it's going to be quite hard to spot them unless the classrooms are full of people who've been through it themselves and even once you've spotted it how do you help? I think that's way beyond my pay grade. Well I think I've got a horrible feeling it might be way beyond Bridget Phillipsons as well but at least you're honest about it. We're going to take a short break now then we're switching topics I've got another one of the big stories in today's

32:23news to dissect and discuss so do stay with me. Turning our attention next to one of those sort of real Wimbledon moments. Have I used that phrase before? Well on earth is a Wimbledon moment I'll show you what a Wimbledon moment is obviously this is the radio but you can watch it all back later on YouTube this is a Wimbledon moment right? Your face goes that way you go well okay and then woof goes that way and you're thinking the polar opposite I had a real Wimbledon moment this morning I don't I can't do noise but like a Wush noise or something like that. Wush, whoosh. So the first thing was I read AI is going to cure cancer so I went yes that's fantastic who could possibly have a problem with that that's sadly not a rhetorical question but it is just unalloyed good news AI is going to deliver a cure for cancer in our lifetimes says the leader of one of the biggest chip companies that obviously feels AI

33:25so you could file it under well he would say that wouldn't wouldn't he but scientists are already using AI driven tools and cancer research and testing the NHS has already said that four million patients last year received faster lung diagnosis thanks to funding in AI powered x-ray tools once again you realise how little you know about all of this but you know that this is a good correct it's a good thing it's going to model how a DNR I'll explain all right AI is going to model how a DNA marker is impacted by cancer which is too complex a problem for humans and even for the computers that currently run AI but going forward you feed more and more of the models into these computers the computers get more sophisticated to run the models they will be able to solve it they'll be able to see the pattern as it were that would explain when and why and how you intervene and and stop the process I think I've got that right I may have got it complete feels a bit like mystery out frankly I'm trying to explain how AI is going to cure cancer have we gone

34:28definitive I very much doubt it I don't know what a Ray Leotard would look like on this so I'm reading that and I'm thinking well this is great this is fantastic AI is going to cure cancer and then I literally turn the page and I read that AI is going to kill us all within the next 10 years potentially right so on the one hand you've got AI finding a cure for cancer that's something which I can't imagine anybody having a problem with and then you literally turn the page and the very next thing you read is experts quit over fear of AI killing us all a British researcher who has spent three years working at leading AI companies has quit the industry warning that they are gambling with our lives I resigned from anthropic today says a chap called Jacob Coxon I spent the last three years doing pre-training research at both open AI and anthropic need the company is acting responsibly they are racing straight to self-improving super intelligence and gambling with our lives do not underestimate the power of this technology every doomed civilization in the history of science fiction has underestimated the power of technology I that's me talking now

35:31not him this is him again these will suit they will soon be superhuman systems that can hack anything revolutionize any field overnight and acquire real power and resources it's the same story isn't it it's exactly the same story and that is absolutely terrifying so how are they going to cure cancer mate well they're going to literally get so big and so fast that they'll be able to crunch everything and work out how to cure cancer coming next probably the common cold well how are they going to kill us all in ten years well they're going to move so fast so quickly and get so big that they'll be able to hack everything not just cancer this is essentially describing the hacking of cancer we're going to hack cancer they're going to hack cancer and work out how to cure it well that's great isn't it yeah the bad news is we can hack absolutely everything else as well and my the first person to point out you could you tell I only just

36:32realized that in the middle of setting this story up for you that little pause that was completely authentic I just went this is the same story I might go home now actually is that all right can I take the rest of the day off that's it that's that's the massive bomb that I'm dropping in your life today there it is so you kill us all because you can hack everything you can hack transport systems you can make the planes fall out of the sky you can hack hospitals you can I think so I don't know actually that is a question I can put on the board that the leader of safety research at Anthropic said that this guy was correct in that his belief that AI could kill all human beings adding I personally think it is greater than 10% within the next decade oh man I think I just I think I've just done something really dangerous have an eye am I am I being stupid or am I being too self-congratulatory it's it's the same story it's the same flipping stuff it's the same

37:35story we can kill cancer in the next 10 years or within our life wow how by just doing things bigger we can kill everyone in the world within the next 10 years how by doing things bit by hack heck oh I actually need a lie down can I have a lie can I have a lie down now we're gonna kill cancer yeah we're all gonna die boom it's the same story and I haven't got a Scooby-Doo now what to do is a phoning I mean what good or bad which side of you on curing cancer or everybody dying what are we gonna do I do have a phone and I'm teasing you I've asked AI to come up with God have we done that yet is anyone done that oh no we see if any of the presenters got AI here's a story what would a phone in top it be oh God save us all but that plays into the question that I am going to ask you what I really want you to do is well what I've first and foremost want you to do is spare people the business of trying to work it out for themselves and answer the question simply

38:41how would AI kill us all in the next 10 years who feels qualified to answer that there will be people every time we've turned our attention to AI on this program the quality of contribution has been mixed I'm not gonna lie I'm not cracking it's not like some of the topics we do where almost everybody sounds like they could do a PhD on the subject but we have always found people who who clearly do have the but my favourite ever AI caller was probably the bloke who was doing had a graphic design company who was still getting commissioned to do graphic design for clients but who was getting AI to do it all and I said to him but that's not going to last he goes no I know they're going to work out soon that they'll be able to do it themselves using AI but until then I'm laughing all the way to the bank he's probably my favourite contributor on the subject although not the most insightful or the most knowledgeable I've got a colleague or a mate who works in the same industry as me who's going on an AI course and he said it's incredible I'll be able to do the job of four people it's brilliant and I said well yeah unless you're one of those four people or rather

39:43unless you're one of the other three people because you'll now be doing the job of four people using AI and there's three people there who I mean I'm not going to be more abundant redundant I don't think but who are certainly not going to be doing the job that they would have been doing if you hadn't been doing their job with the AI I want you to take this question seriously because it's going to sound a bit flippant given that we've just established the extraordinary realisation that the cure for cancer good news is exactly the same story as that we're all going to die bad news that no one else has knitted those together they're all in different stories today I may have got it wrong actually that's phony number three isn't it have I got this completely wrong so number one how is the technology going to how might it kill us all and please answer that question without giving anybody any ideas but the second thing I have for you is this what are you most worried about and I'm saying worried I'm not saying frightened I think I've asked you to frighten me before because I I'm really worried about my daughter's generation I've got two daughters 18 and 20

40:49and I find myself now trying to give them advice and guidance about what they might do in the world and where they might go and I'm not sure I'm any use to them I'm not sure my experience is any use to them whatsoever when my late father was alive and I was trying to get into the profession that he had been in I was trying to become a journalist his advice to me was was invaluable he didn't unfortunately have the contacts that would have been at least as useful as the advice to get my foot through the door but he'd given me a sufficient advantages in life to to be able to take advantage of them for example when the editor of the Sunday Telegraph came to deliver a speech at the London School of Economics I could go and say to him afterwards oh I'm I'm James I Brian's son and he go I remember your father yes yeah I know I said could I have some work experience please on the Sunday Telegraph so in a way you get that in but he didn't

41:49it not been in the game been out of the game for too long to be able to ring someone up and say can you can you give the boy a week or something like that but I still have an enormous advantage there and when I got to that newspaper office and I had nothing to do I would ring him up and I'd say dad I've got nothing to do and dad would say well you're there in case you need them son and anyway why don't you give so and so a ring who's got that news agency down in Oxford because he's always got good contacts in the auction industry and there might be something coming up for auction you'll be able to take that story to the to the diary and the diary are always you know giving 5060 quid to contacts him for a little nugget a little paragraph of news that dad could give me advice about getting into the profession that I wanted to get into and I don't I mean currently my my children have no particular interest in coming into the profession that I'm in but even if they did I don't know how useful my experiences would be and when I look at other professions and I do look at professions because I'm not working class that's perhaps another distinction

42:53you know aspiration or whatever it may be I'm middle class so you know have you thought about law like I know a barrister who says that it more than 75% of the work that he would have done on the way up to becoming a King's Council is now being done by AI a lot of the crunching and they make mistakes don't waste 10% in me a text to tell me that it still makes mistakes of course it does but it's going to be curing cancer in our lifetimes if it hasn't killed us all already so the speed of evolution and improvement here is is off the charts and and I'm giving you my fear because it is a very personal thing that I do what most people do when it pops up into my mind and I ignore it and shout it down and reassure myself that everything is going to be okay but I'm actually fearful or I'm certainly worried especially when I see on a social level I don't think that we're going to be dealing with a neat situation in my family but never say never I'm not never going

43:54to take anything for granted but when you see the million young people who are not in education employment or training and you add AI to that mix I think even if you haven't got any children either of that age or of any age then just as an engaged member of society you probably feel some of the worry that I'm describing what else could we be worried about or rather what are you most worried about so how might AI killers within the next 10 years which an awful lot of the experts in that field are warning could happen because they're not regulating it properly and hey ho who here can look at the big tycoons of technology of recent years the musks and the zucker bugs and think oh don't worry they're really really reliable people who will prioritize safety and humanity over personal profit and power answer absolutely nobody can do that so that's part of the fear what what is it going to look like what would this extinction level event involve and presumably

44:56on lower levels what are you worried about with regard to AI it can be small or big or like mine a curious mixture of both parental love parental concern also societal angst worries about the future you know a shrinking number of necessary jobs what does everybody else do it's incredible how this conversation has evolved since we first said the words on the radio and you sent me chat GPT versions of a James O'Brien monologue and we all laughed at them well no one's laughing now I know what you're thinking nobody ever laughs at your monologue's days we're going to take a short break now then you will help me illuminate this conversation with your thoughts so please don't leave me to do all the talking queen carvania stood haloed by the morning sun an army hung on her every word my champions I have sold my chariot on carvana to a lovely SUV

46:04an inexplicably queenly offer they're even coming to the castle to collect it tonight we feast and offer you can feast on sell your car today on carvana pick up fees me up by who says Halloween only last one day with way fair one night of Halloween becomes a whole season at home from larger than life yard decor and moody lighting to festive accents for every room in the house way fair has what you need to make Halloween feel like magic all in one place because the best Halloween memories aren't made in just one night they're made all season long shop Halloween decor now at way fair dot com way fair every style every home john's an ex the john what would you like to say i need to stop calling you to talk about things I don't really know about why she served me well for over 20 years mate so let's not jinx anything last time i called you i was talking about trying to mark student essays and distinguishing AI

47:07i remember that yes i mentioned your professor and your brother is a professor as well isn't he right but he's he's the cyber security guy i don't know we won't be listening to this so why not really why don't the cyber security guys listen john because he's sitting there looking at screens of knots and ones i see you can have me on in the background couldn't he i suppose he could have no no i know so anyway he pointed out to me a few years ago and i thought i think i think he's right it won't be a catastrophic event right it will simply be neglect uh once once this intelligence becomes so fast it can do everything at lightning speed and change anything at lightning speed and have the control over all mechanical means yeah presumably it just loses interest in us and so our needs our desires are at request simply become unimportant and so we are simply ignored and so I presumably we might get to exist on the fringes a kind of road and life but but it might not be that dramatic so there's a sort of perpetual self-improvement of the

48:15technology to the point where any of its energies being dedicated to for example food production would would just strike the the super brain as ridiculous at some point yeah presumably our needs and i wish it's just become an irrelevant because because we are not organisms and cos they're not organisms either but we are not capable of perfection or capable of engaging with anything on its level so they just leaves it just leaves as but i could still i could still have an allotment and still eat and things could i well maybe yes but i mean i suppose it controls all means of doing anything physically or so what's it's reward what's it's reward well i don't know because i'm not that intelligent no but nobody knows i won't know what it will be like to be that in check and i don't know whether it will have conversations with multiple other intelligences or if it will be a single

49:18mind i don't know so this is why scots lie about it's we are like ants trying to work out how a human's going to kill it i imagine except that except that my brother's point was it's not going to even care about killing but no no but it is going to kill us i mean i don't mean that to involve you know men's raya well there's no men's actually is there but to to to motive or anything like that it is just going to happen as a consequence of its perpetual self-improvement yeah i mean suppose if you can um if you can improve technology at lightning speed then i suppose you can just get into intergalactic travel very quickly i mean i'm i'm talking with the air i can we can we not stop it from doing these things i don't know all do it to stop the glabit of the quality no well i well he will one day my name and then um we'll have all the answers that we need it's i mean it's all it's it's all a bit i don't know really it's a well dystopian is the word i keep saying but it is dystopian maybe you know it's almost more realized utopia is not possible but dystopia is that'd be like the final chapter of

50:23humanity the drive towards heaven on earth i'm thinking more about religion there than belinda carlar but hey you know you you do you so we're supposed to be trying to build zanadu we're supposed to be trying to build a fair and just society on this earth we can't because of all the other humans uh and yet dystopia a machine run universe in which humans are at best enslaved and at worst extinct that's becoming ever more feasible but these dudes are not just sort of weirdos on facebook this guy led a safety team at anthropic he's also resigned he's joining the model evaluation and threat research organization based in california and he described the bloke who said we're all gonna die as being broadly accurate our industry may be on track to build a system that impose an unprecedented amount of risk on the world evaluating those risks and changing incentive structures so that we can address them is why i'm joining emtr another

51:23chapter leads safety research at anthropic said on x that the guy who has said we're all gonna die is correct i personally think it's a greater than 10% chance within the next decade what jayson solihull there's an introduction for you jay what would you like to say so well personally going back to ai yeah so ai obviously goes off prompts and it goes off what we as a human would give the computer information because if you think about it all our knowledge is all on these devices now all our tech all our information you go on google let's say you search up i don't know something completely random and it will come up with any suggested algorithm that you can think of the my question is if you look at the world and you see that god made man in his own image are you going religious oh well i'm not religious bloke no i'm just checking because i mean i wasn't gonna dismiss you i just wanted to be i just wanted to be clear of well because we're going all religious on it then

52:26we're not we're definitely not going to get a definitive answer yeah definitely not definitely not go on it god made man in his own image so god made man in his own image of course and you we as man have now invented computers and ai in our own image so are we kind of playing god and giving the ai the power because obviously humans have to give computers prompts and ai prompts from what yeah but what if the what if the prompt is just become ever more efficient it's like an infinite prompt it's not just you know add these two numbers together and tell me the answer or make me a cup of tea it's it's you your technology must continue to improve indefinitely and infinitely that's like an uber prompt of course and that's where that's where we kill god or rather our creation kills us yes anyway if you've watched it's an old kids cartoon called eagle it's a brilliant

53:27film it's about mad scientists who now overfers the world and it keeps all the clouds in the sky and you know it's kind of happening today really if you if you look at the way that the weather's working now we're just going into that constant straight of gray just gray sky so who knows that the government is not cloud-seeding it's just going to constantly give us just the beautiful gray sky yeah we know that the government is a cloud-seeding don't you not you know I guess I've well you never know you know no no I do you see this is the problem and I'll never as a request to have this conversation we're all little ants trying to work out what that boot's going to do to us we don't even know I don't know Scotts and Birmingham Scot what made you pick up the phone yeah it's pointed earlier on about um obviously you've got two daughters I've got four grown kids but now very lucky to have two newborn grandchildren and the thing you may I've been looking forward to as you as you get older and the kids finally sort of got the hint that we wanted grandchildren and popped her out so I was looking really looking

54:28forward to giving them some life advice I've been trying to do my best with the kids yes and there was a bit of a sort of moments last weekend really where my youngest lad said Dad it's an expensive to service the car yes it is so I think got to change your own myself and before I could say anything else about well I can do it for you some but I'll show you yeah I've checked GPT it it doesn't need his dad anymore to give him this advice and I'm thinking well if this is how it is now after years of raising the kids and they're slowly starting to move away from life advice as I'm sure you would have seen with your own parents you it's not just the advice you used to get but it's that bond that very closeness when they would show you a task and you were there part of that experience you were hands on with it that I don't think I'm going to get with my grandchildren no I don't think you are and I not really procted as a negative before because even long before AI and chat GPT I fixed the boiler of six months at last winter and it wasn't a very difficult fix

55:33but without looking up a video on YouTube there was no earthly way I was ever going to be doing that and I walked around the house like Bob the builder for about three days and I thought that's just a good thing but it's the same yourself yeah it is positive and negative isn't it I mean if if if if nobody knew how to change the oil on a car then we'd have a kind of event horizon but the fact that we don't get to pass on well we'll pass on other things won't we Scott I'm sure that I'll pass on part by personality and I'm sure that I'll be able to do that at least just not knowledge advice rather than knowledge or or you know be kind to yourself look after your mental health the things that you're not going to get told unless you go looking for it it's the things that they go looking for that we're not really going to be able to help but they're not going to be looking for it anymore are they they're not even going to be looking for you know when they're having a tough time and you know so don't talk to dad or mother but I'll just I'll just stick it I'll do it that's a little little chat GPT so that it will see what it tells me the right way to deal with it would like and people are doing that

56:33and there are some grim consequences to it but it's so presumably some positive experiences that is the best example yet of where humans have to regulate humans have to challenge and and do things differently from how we've always done them because otherwise it's it's going to run away it's all going to run away so the moment that isn't it I can tell from your voice it's it's it's it's it's upsetting it really is because I'm just thinking well as my son I'm a daughter now the new parents yeah and I said well you you've just chat GPT that son what if what if Harriet comes to you when she's you know 10 years almost on and some you know wants to help with the homework yeah you can and ask me she don't get asked you and you went oh god dad and I can see he's sort of face dropped thinking I know you're feeling now well on the plus side I might have killed us all yeah well we'll be done anyway it's a much different so my the most the most the most you're 20 plus years I'll be seeing my long way continue there it is swings and roundabout Scott swings and roundabouts thank you man oh dear hey

57:34apparently it's a funny old business isn't it and that one thing that I recognise I've got recognised an awful lot of what Scott described except the bit about knowing how to change the oil on a car but that idea that you would be of use so I talked about my dad at now all of you see always was to me in so many ways and mum of course but I don't know I'm not quite as pessimistic I don't think as Scott we'll find there'd be other things we can pass on other other bits of usefulness and you know people as well don't you in a way that I'm gonna say everything I say about a and I someone's gonna send me a message and go I bad news there James and we're done for another day huge thank you to all my contributors for some truly special conversations I'll be back on lbc tomorrow from 10 or right here shortly afterwards this has been a global production who says Halloween only last one day with wayfare one night of Halloween becomes a whole season at home from larger than life yard decor and moody lighting to festive accents for every room in the

58:38house wayfare has what you need to make Halloween feel like magic all in one place because the best Halloween memories aren't made in just one night they're made all season long shop Halloween decor now at wayfare.com wayfare every style every home