No Kings Rally Coverage

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Hello, everyone.

Happy no Kings Day.

I am JVL from the Bullwark.

And I'm here with my colleagues, Catherine Rempel,

and Andrew Eger.

We are also joined for the moment by Bill Crystal.

You just stay on the burner over there.

Guys, we're going to be with you live for the next hour.

We're going to be bringing you reports from all over the country.

Our friends and colleagues have been out there taking video

from Arkansas, to New Orleans, to California, to Washington,

DC, just a lot of it.

We got video coming in.

That's the villages down in Florida.

A big day, kind of an important day.

This is the third no Kings protest.

And we are already seeing, you know, I guess it's sort of a moment.

It's a moment to see whether or not there's momentum building.

The first one came last June.

It was to counter the Trump military parade.

The turn out for that was about 5 million.

Then in October, we had a second parade.

And it was a real step change.

About 7 million people turned out nationally for that.

The organizers this week said that they think this might be the biggest one yet.

Tim Miller had Ezra Levin on the show.

And he said that they were about 3,100 protests registered across the country.

Many of them happening outside of urban areas and more rural areas.

So we're going to see what is happening.

Before we start going around the horn, Catherine and Andrew.

Do you guys have any thoughts to set the table here?

Andrew, you want to go ahead?

Oh, yeah, sure.

My main thought about all of this is it's coming at sort of a strange time.

The no Kings protests when they first got off the ground last year.

They were coming amid this sort of barrage of the Trump administration basically pushing against

sort of the preexisting institutions of the law and the courts and various different things.

And basically in every different frontier you could think of.

And constantly justifying that by basically saying, we are the new elected government.

We've got this mass mandate from the people and you can go pound sand if you think we're

just going to stop short of all of our aims and all of our goals.

And in the context of that, these first two protests were extremely powerful because

essentially what they were saying was, well, no, in fact, you might have won the presidency

legitimately in 2024.

But this idea that there's this gigantic mass popular mandate for you to do anything

you might want to do is completely refuted by this giant unprecedented in size resistance

movement.

And I think we're in kind of a slightly different era now, obviously, it is kind of dawned

on everybody, just how unpopular this president and his administration have gotten.

This sort of complete scatter shot, we're going to fight against every institution that

might hold us back in every theater.

That's not really their strategy so much anymore.

They have kind of burrowed in a little bit and they're picking their battles a little

bit more than they used to perhaps because of a sort of donning realization of the thinness

of their political support.

But the general sort of authoritarian impulse has not gone away.

Anytime Donald Trump wants to wield power, he's choosing to wield power in just the same

way that it was last year.

So I think there have been some aims achieved, at least in terms of the message of these

protests.

But the ongoing importance of just a real show of force here is no less now than it was

last year.

Hey, in the comments, Denville, New Jersey.

I see you.

I was just there 30 minutes ago.

All right, Catherine.

Sorry, go ahead.

Oh, I was just going to say, I generally agree with that analysis.

I think the real question is, what is the ask now or what is the next step?

These protests have been very effective at showing people that they are not alone, that

they are in the fight together, that they're not the only ones who are feeling like the

world has gone crazy, and that there is power in numbers.

So I think as a psychological boost at the very least, this has been really important.

And as a political show of force, it has been very important.

The question is, what happens next?

Is there a specific ask?

It doesn't, you know, it's a giant movement, so it's not like everybody's speaking with

one voice, but is there a demand or a, maybe demand is not the right word, an expectation

that Republicans may behave at all differently going into the midterms because there is this

very visible, very salient anger, rage, disappointment, and patriotism, frankly, that's

out there.

And I don't know the answer to that.

The behavior that we've seen just in the past few days from Republicans, like with Speaker

Johnson, basically cowing to Donald Trump's whims on the DHS funding bill just as

if, for instance, suggests that there's not a lot of change in the actual behavior of

Republican politicians, despite all of the polling that suggests that Americans are unhappy

with the Trump stewarded agenda.

And despite, again, this kind of show of force.

So is this like, should we think of this as sort of like a rally in a way going into the

midterms, you know, supporting Democrats?

I don't think, I think a lot of the participants out there would be uncomfortable as seeing themselves

in that light.

So you know, the real question is like, what is the, what's the next step?

What is the incremental impact of these really impressive turnouts around the country?

And I think we don't know.

But you know, I'm glad to see, of course, that people are participating in democracy,

and they're going out and they're making sure that their voices are heard.

Yeah.

I mean, well, I have some thoughts on what the ask is, and we'll get to that later though.

First, I want to bring in our colleague, Bill Crystal, who is at a college just outside

of Boston, and he was at a protest earlier, you know, in that same neighborhood, just

outside of Boston.

Not toughs.

Not toughs.

Bill, tell me, how are things up in wherever it is that you are?

I think JVL has never gotten over, not being admitted to this college, just outside Boston

that I went to a conference that yesterday, which is why I'm up here for the weekend,

but I've never even tried.

I know.

I did not even try.

I knew that I was not Harvard.

It would have been Harvard.

It was Harvard's loss, you know what I mean?

If you had been a graduate, I think the whole thing.

They managed for me, the college would be, I would have the college.

It would be quite well.

No, I don't think so.

I would have it and hold the college a higher review if you would gone here, but you

were too serious, personally, probably.

So I went today out to the Western suburbs for a little further west than Cambridge

to Waltham, some friends I wanted to see who lived near there.

I went with their family and extended family and other friends to Waltham common.

Each town in Massachusetts and New England, they each have a common, and it's sort of

very pretty.

One of the abusing guys is struck by this.

So they have war memorials of these commons, and this one, the most prominent memorial I

thought was this World War One, a little over two, you don't know, obviously.

It was a memorial to the people who served and who died fighting, as they put it on the

World War Memorial, the Spanish War veterans, and I took a minute of, what was that?

And it was the three wars, I had three engagements, I guess, three countries we engaged, three

places we engaged between 1898 and 1902, and the back, they have the little description

you can read more.

And it's Puerto Rico, Cuba, and the Philippines, so I guess what I'm going to do with

when Waltham commonly set up or something, you know, post-revolutionary war, maybe post-civil

war, but pre-World War One, so this is the war where all they have, and it's right there

it is.

Yeah, there I am at it.

It's very, it's going to have some more, somewhat in the news these days, which is Trump

wanting to redo the Cuba thing, I suppose, but anyway, that was, that's a sidebar.

So I would just say this, I was so struck at the first two I went to which were in Reclane,

how the spirit was so broad, big tent democratic opposition.

Reclane is now 60, 40 sort of democratic, but it was, it was certainly Bush, Romney, McCain,

Republican territory, and I saw many, many people there who I knew from the, you know,

vaguely or some people well, from the Reagan Bush administrations, from the K-World, from

W-World, I mean, it was sort of, for me, it was kind of a lot of people coming up and

saying, hey, you're here too, yeah, are you a Democrat yet?

Are you still independent?

Or, you know, the usual conversations one has with one's former Republican and conservative

friends?

And what do you think about someone so, why did he go bad?

Why is this person, this person's doing a good job, you know, it's like, that kind

of thing.

Here, Waltham, West of Boston, West of Boston, the suburbs of West of Boston is more

just straightforwardly liberal and, you know, democratic, Waltham is interesting because

unlike Cambridge, right now, it's more mixed, I mean, Brandeis is there, but it also has

a fair working class and middle class, a number of resident, a number of working class and

middle class residents, it's a little less upscale than Newton and Western, some of these

places.

So, it was a nice mix of people, I was told by people who had been there before, I could

see, and certainly I'm acclaimed from the, was a June to the October rallies that there

was a real increase in size and also a real energy.

I hadn't been here before, but the people who had said it was at least as big as the

previous one, which is sort of impressive because it's like, it was 28 degrees at 10-30

in the morning when the rally began here at Waltham, they, they began them all early

so people could then go into the Boston Common, which is the sort of big rally for this area

and which will have more than 100,000 people, I should think.

So, high spirit, I would say, you know, for, given that this is, as I said, Waltham and

Boston came for Syria, the mood, if it didn't look that different from McLean, page, a lot

of American flags, a lot of very few sort of conspicuously, I'm going to say lefty kind

of, you know, banners and stuff, one or two free palestines, but, but really mostly,

straightforward anti-Trump, anti-Kings, some of the cartoon characters or the inflatable

sort of thing.

They were, that we saw it up to where it had been repurposed, you know, came back out

for, here, their March appearance, good nature, thanking the, the couple cops with keeping

an eye on things and people went over and thanked them, they had a couple of bands, you

know, little bands, kind of makes you fans, marching bands, playing patriotic saw hangs, God

bless America at one point and the battle him or the Republic.

So I felt, as an earlier, I'm so impressed at the organizers, but also the participants,

which you can't tell, really, I don't think it was just that they wanted to look centrist,

patriotic, you know, mainstream, mainstream, whatever you want to say that, I think they

feel that way.

I mean, the protests just feel that they're being patriotic in protesting and for me that

was kind of, once again, this time, moving, you know, on, on Catherine's point about what

the asks are, I guess I was struck, ICE remains big on the placards that I saw.

I mean, that, you know, the fact that they backed off a little in Minneapolis that still

didn't know ICE, no mass deportation, no brutality to our, you know, friends and neighbors

from other countries was a very big theme, no war, now a big theme.

I think as a live-in said, didn't he say there's no ice, no war, no kings.

And then the, no kings side, the democracy side, the 2026 and 2028 elections, the sort

of more straightforward, if you will, you know, pro-democracy agenda.

I guess I would say that's the ask that you think, no more mass deportation, no unwarranted

wars in Iran or anywhere else, no further corruption and degradation of our democracy.

And that's not a, that's a pretty manageable, I mean, let's do what we can do all these

things, but it's a reasonable, a reasonable mainstream agenda.

I guess I was sort of, I mean, I'm not generalizing for that.

It should be a low bar.

From the, for the 500 people, yeah, from the 500 people who were there and welfare,

so you know, 1000 people don't get me wrong, but I, I, I was struck again.

I did, I sort of expected this to look very different from Northern Virginia, and it

looked pretty mainstream to me.

Can I jump in on that just for one second, Bill, on the, on the no war?

Of course, I just want to, just for, for viewers, the feed we're showing right now is the

live feed from Philly, so you can, you can tell because they're throwing batteries at

each other.

No, there is no one's in Philly, there's Philly Joe.

They're beating up, they're beating up some, some, some Yankees fans, some Celtics, some

guy wearing a Celtic jersey.

Somebody came out to press and it's probably a cowboy's hat.

And so I'm sorry, you know, unity only goes so far.

No, well, I mean, we're showing this one as a, as a real kind of like flex.

I mean, if they're, if they're peaceful and Philly, you know, you can't even imagine how

they are.

I just, I just wanted to take you back off of what Bill was saying about the, the no war

component of that because that is, of course, the one giant difference between now, I mean,

the big political sea change between now and the last protests last year, I mean, Donald

Trump was already underwater, was already, you know, his, his ship of state was, was leaking

quite badly in terms of, you know, his political chances going into the midterms.

And now he has started this, this war in Iran, you know, unilaterally, it never consulted

Congress.

Obviously, it is, you know, it's, it's sort of, it's a different sort of slant than,

the sorts of, sort of domestic policy focused stuff that, that no kings has been so focused

on in the past, but it is also completely in keeping with the, the primary message.

I mean, he went to war by himself without consulting the legislature whose power it is

constitutionally, and he seems intent on keeping us there as long as he likes without

ever going to Congress and consulting them.

So I'm, I'm interested to see as we talk to some of our people who are out there in the

field at a few of these different protests today, how much of that has been added to this

or whether it's still, I mean, when I was driving through a couple protests earlier,

I'm on my way back for this live stream.

I saw, I, I did not see a lot of war signs.

It was a lot of ice stuff.

It was that sort of, you know, the, the more top level, no king stuff, but I'm interested

whether that holds true from, from the reporters we have out there as well.

Yeah, this is something I'm looking, so Bill, what was this like, the, the protest I was

at?

I saw like one Iran sign, yeah, which really surprised me.

I thought the, you know, the, the feeling felt almost identical to October, despite

the fact that there's now like a major highly unpopular war, which surprised me.

I thought, oh, there was a chance this would turn into more of like an anti-war rally,

but it, at least, you know, yeah, it's anecdota, but yeah, with mine, didn't, and what did

you see in Waltham?

Yeah, I think a little more no war up here, there were used to being anti-war, several

people, of course, in, in the claim, the typical, the people who recognized me were sort

of the, as I say, good to see you again, or a, how are the, how are the other rex Republicans

at the bulwark?

And that kind of thing, people who recognized me up here were a little more like, I can't

believe I'm here at a rally, Bill, I mean, then frankly, I was at a rally in 2003, protesting

you and all your friends who got us into that terrible war to rock, but I went 12 on

that because we're all united now, you know, so it's a little different being up here

in, in the Boston suburbs than in the northern Virginia suburbs, but there's a fair amount

of war stuff here, I would say, so I don't, again, when we would have to get a lot more

data, a lot more anecdotes, at least, to see if this is consistent or whether it's

reasonably different, or whether we just saw different, you know, the randomly different

signs and so forth.

But the war was pretty evident up here.

Okay.

Bill, I'm curious, was there a lot, was there a lot of Epstein related content, like on

the signs and chance and things like that?

And again, it's still hard to, you know, have it to some people milling around and all

this.

I didn't see that much.

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All right, Bill, thank you very much, we're going to let you go and guys, we're going to

bring in our colleague at the bowl, we're Joe Perticone, who is coming to us from Calorama,

which is a fancy fence place in Washington D.C.

Joe, where were you this morning?

So I sort of got a whole encompassing view of how it took over D.C. by accident.

8 a.m. I went out to Virginia to go skate in a bowl and then on the way out there, every

single person, like every single overpass was covered with people and with signs and

I was like, well, that's weird, it's only like 8 a 30 a.m.

Same thing on the way back into the city, then I, you know, the bridge I normally take

would be the Arlington bridge to get home, but it was an ocean of people on the bridge

behind it, like you just couldn't see.

So they had police moving us under it.

And I go around, I get into Georgetown and I see an inflatable man who is just doing

a Nazi salute on loop and I go, what's going on here?

There it is.

Turns out it was an Elon Musk inflatable man or it could have just been a really long

in those.

And then I make it my way through, there's an additional protest in Calorama, which is

right near where I live and it was really, you know, a lot of people and there were tons

of people stretched up into Woodley Park.

And so it really took over this whole chunk of the city and into Arlington, too, just

seeing the people on the overpasses.

So, you know, I think this looks to be a bit bigger than, well, we'll get the numbers

at some point, but it looks to be bigger than the previous one in which they were all

on Capitol Hill, which I was at.

But it's closer more to the Lincoln Memorial and whatnot.

Very interesting.

And so that's, that is interesting.

I guess this is still Philly that we're seeing, we're just not getting closer up.

So I'm sorry, Joe, this is, people in the comments are very confused as to how you started

with us.

When you said you were going to do a bowl and people are like, what?

Joe was going out to smoke a bowl on Saturday morning.

No, very quickly.

I was, I was going to skateboard in an empty pool early in the morning, which is the

way to do it.

And you got to do that.

There's one on Virginia.

So that's why I saw, I went and saw it, but I was able to, on my way back, see like

a whole view of how it was just consuming the city.

And what was it?

Just on the war question, did you see a lot of like, Iran signs, war signs or yeah, yeah,

it was very, very heavy on the anti-war stuff that's expected.

Interesting.

A lot of the pro-democracy stuff, you guys had mentioned before I came on, had asked if

there was an Epstein focus, didn't see a lot of that.

Obviously, there's going to be some of those in a crowd of like thousands, but it, it

seemed to be really heavy on ice, war, and then the like democracy component.

So it really fits with, you know, the things that Bill mentioned he saw.

Very nice.

All right.

Catherine Andrew, anything before we let Joe go?

I'm making myself sick to my stomach trying to read these individual signs as we're doing

this village shot.

It's like a major tape version.

You let it all just wash over you.

All right.

Very much appreciate it.

And we're going to bring in our newest but work colleague, Jasmine Green.

So you, unless you're a triad reader, you may not know Jasmine, but I introduced her this

week.

She is our latest addition to the bulwark.

She's amazing.

And Jasmine Green is down on the hill, right?

Jasmine, are you on the mall?

I'm on the mall yet right in front of the Capitol building, which is just here.

So how is it, how, how big are the crowds down there?

I would say it's several hundred people here.

I would, I think it's less than I expected.

The events in DC are a bit bifurcated today because there's the rally, the no Kings rally

here on the mall.

But there's also a march to Fort McNair, the military housing, where Stephen Miller,

the architect of the immigration crack down is saying.

So I'm not sure if the march is going to be drawing numbers from here on the mall, but

it's still a healthy amount of people here with signs and costumes and a lot of energy.

And then the speaker event is starting now as well with the local activists and speakers.

What is the, what is the age distribution like down on the mall?

Is it a lot of retirees and grandmothers or more young people?

What do you, what do you say?

I would say the crowd is definitely older, which is expected, but there are a lot of young

people here too.

I think they're a good amount of millennials.

Even some Gen Z people like myself, some, I see babies as well, children.

So I would say the age distribution is more diverse than I expected.

What's the best sign you saw?

Yeah, what's the best sign you saw so far?

Oh, actually, I quite like the sign that a woman had that it just said no Kings rally,

but she had her four year old grandchild like scribble in the middle.

And it was, it was so interesting.

It was like kind of, yeah, I thought it was so cool.

I was like, this could be in the moment or something like Jackson Pollock.

Yeah, I was like, this is a piece of art and that kid to be very proud of himself.

That's funny.

I, you said a lot of old people.

I was really touched at the, the rally I was at before we came on.

Oh, the feed now we're getting is Minnesota.

So this is where that like a Minnesota, that's a pretty healthy looking crowd.

The old, I mean, the number of old folks who were in sort of rolling, rolling walkers

in 30 degree weather, like I just thought, God bless you guys.

Like, you know, these are people who are showing up not for themselves, but for their grandchildren.

And it was, it was pretty inspiring and touching.

I don't know.

I totally agree.

I spoke to a younger woman, probably in her late 20s, early 30s, who when I was asking her,

what makes her for a whole full while she's out here, she teared up at that exact sentiment

that when she was at the previous protest, she went to it made her feel so hard to see people

who might have difficulty with mobility still coming out in their will tears and their

canes.

And so yeah, yeah, it was really, really touching.

And so did you, did you see any, so and I, the war stuff, would you say like sort of equal

distribution with like war ice Epstein or was the overall flavor still just very democracy first?

I think there's a range of issues as why people came out here today.

I mean, I see a lot of signs about the wrong war.

I see a lot of signs about Epstein just talking to people.

There's folks who came out here because they have like personal connections to what's going

on in the country.

Someone I spoke to, their grandson is a graduate student in organic chemistry and the program,

the funding for his program has been pulled by the administration as she said, that's

why she's here.

Someone else I spoke to said that he, his brother lives in Minneapolis and lives in the

same neighborhood where Alex Freddie was killed.

And that is when inspired him to come out here today.

So I think there's a lot.

I mean, it's reflective of the chaos of the administration, just how many reasons people

are out here today to show their disame, but what's going on?

All right, Andrew, I was going to say what else can you tell us about the demographics?

Like you talked about the age.

Is it like mostly white people?

Is it a mix of people, but you know, as far as you can tell by race and ethnicity,

are you hearing different languages spoken?

Like, what can you tell us about the mix of people who came out where you are?

Yes, actually, I'll say in this way, you can see more of the crowd.

I would say it's definitely wider and older.

I have not seen any, I've not heard any different language spoken.

I think it's definitely a wider and older crowd, which is to be expected.

I think it's the no Kings protest.

Interesting.

Can I ask real quick about jazz?

And I don't know if you've actually been listening in on any of the programming there at

the mall or if that's gotten going yet at all, whether you have anything about the message

that's been sort of from the official, the official side of things.

Yes, so this is the remove the regime events of the no Kings protests and the reason why

everyone is gathered here today, or at least the main reason is because they want to see

President Donald Trump impeached.

And that is a lot of the sentiment and the programming that's from the main stage,

which is behind me, just in front of the Capitol building.

And has it been primarily like activist and stuff?

Are there any elected to have showed up for this?

I didn't scan the list ahead of time for them all thing.

I don't even think they had a list.

I also tried to see if which speakers would be out today.

No elected officials yet.

I mean, they're they've all left for their Easter break, so I don't think

and you will show up maybe, but mostly local activists who've been speaking.

All right.

Jasmine, very much appreciated.

Glad to have you with your Bullwork debut.

Congratulations, my friend.

Glad to be here.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

And we're going to bring in Jim Swift, who is in the green city since Nadi.

Hey guys, can you hear me?

Okay.

Yeah.

So what do you agree?

Hey, we've got a great turnout here in downtown Cincinnati.

There are no pinks, marches all over the greater Tri-State region.

But the biggest one started here downtown at City Hall,

where we heard from Timothy Snyder, the L professor in historian on authoritarianism.

I got to walk alongside him, but I wasn't able to get video

fortunately, but he did his video at the speech.

I'd say a couple thousand people here at least at this rally downtown.

I'm standing in the middle of, well, not little at the intersection.

We are on Walnut Street, a home of EW Scripts News company.

March of high labor stopped.

And we are following a police motorcade of sorts on kind of a march round through downtown.

Boston Red Sox are in town against the Reds today.

So it really is a high discipline with young fans.

And a lot of surprise baseball fans from out of town.

I wonder if this is a regular occurrence.

And in Cincinnati, it often is.

It's a very excellent city.

Were you there in October, Jim, now?

No, I was not.

This is actually my first no-kings protests I've had.

Family times, but I have friends and next door neighbors who have gone.

I'm hoping that this one's going to be the biggest.

But I think it is a bull 50501.

Very well organized, very well-stamped volunteers.

Oh, Rocky Talkie and Orange and Yellow vested out their medics here.

No sign of counter protestors.

I heard you guys were talking about what kind of demographics are.

It's similar.

It's older and wider.

But no more languages, but you know, it's kind of like a July 4th parade.

So I was parking my car.

I saw a guy giving away American flags of kids.

Maybe not all the signs are PG-13.

But I'd say it's most dangerous for us.

No little counter protestors.

Let's speak out.

We have got a lot of chance going on.

That's what kind of gets close to PG-132.

So I made that statement.

Very good stress.

And some people are saying you're not saying it's tied.

It's a boy with readers out and about.

We spotted the band hat.

And lots of lots of people look to answer and say.

That's very nice to hear.

So Jim, one of the questions I have is,

are you seeing like any organizing going on?

At the protest I was at, there was a table where they were looking to get people to

A, register to vote.

So they were doing voter registration.

There were also people organizing

because there was a plan to build an ice facility up in North Jersey.

And so to get people to organize against that.

And then the other thing was

organizing on sort of helping the immigrant community.

So, you know, sign up to help get people who needed it.

That sort of thing.

There were like some organizational asks that I was seeing.

That was well with you.

Yeah, that's true of Cincinnati here.

First, my first organizers I saw with someone going around making sure

everyone was properly registered to vote.

A saw some post-go workers union folks here,

talking, you know, with shirts about making sure you respect the integrity of mail-in voting.

As well as people who are organizing to help immigrant communities

offering training and free whistle pits.

Should ice come to this region.

If it does, it probably will go about an hour.

So if you're in the Springfield,

it probably will be less since it could probably.

But we also saw democratic candidates

are having something afterwards.

I saw their ending out hands-bills.

As well as local and municipal groups,

encouraging people to sign up and get active.

But I think the campaigns are kind of maintaining the distances

in the struggle.

Which is probably the case.

I'm surprised there are no counter-protesters that you're seeing.

I would have guessed that Ohio has enough red voters,

you know, potentially Trumpy voters.

They're probably in the suburb.

Yeah, they're probably in the suburbs, Catherine.

I mean, the city of Cincinnati is deeply close.

It's time to say that we know Republicans here.

They would be probably housed places like Milford, Eastgate,

where some of our readers have been sending pictures to me.

That are my friends.

But that's, you know, on the kind of the ever-ring suburb

of Cincinnati is probably where the counter-protesters are.

But those are smaller demonstrations.

This is the big one.

All right.

Well, thank you a lot, Jim.

Appreciate it.

We'll let you go.

And I wanted to take a couple questions

from the audience here.

Here's one from Queen Leslie 82.

Can the left recapture and own patriotism in the future?

So I am interested with you and

in Catherine think about this.

I mean, I think the answer is no.

But maybe that's just wrong.

I mean, one of the things that, again,

we're all hostage-round experiences.

But the no-kings events I've been at

are like almost weirdly patriotic.

Like everything.

There's no dark JVL of like,

man, fuck it.

This is who we are.

America sucks.

It is full-on.

Like, we've been projecting kinks in 1776.

We're better than this.

America's going to win.

Fuck yeah.

I mean, it's like super sunshiney.

And that's lovely in many ways.

But what do you guys think?

Are there prospects for this to become like an actual

like as if it is received by

normies as a patriotic movement?

Let me, I'll take a stab.

But I mean, to me the question

it depends on what you mean by the left

to a certain extent, right?

I mean, there's always going to be, you know,

a political faction that is sort of agitating

for sort of more and more and faster

and faster social political change.

That is obviously has a vested interest

in focusing on the downsides, focusing on the stuff

that is that's wrong with the status quo.

The weird thing about this current political moment is

because, you know, you have had Donald Trump

and the mega movement sweep in so fast

and basically just try to move so fast

and break everything and reorient everything

according to, you know, their own political whims

and, you know, they're just making themselves

and their friends rich and punishing their enemies.

Is you've had this weird opportunity

for a sort of like small sea, like conservative

anti-Trump sort of coalition to form.

And that's not the only thing that's happening

in never Trump politics.

I don't even know if it's like the majority

of the current, you know, body of the Democratic Party

will be interested to see how this movement gets channeled into,

you know, for instance, the presidential primaries

on the Democratic side going in 2028.

But it's, I think it's overrepresented

at these no kings things.

I mean, like it is almost a, again,

like sort of small sea conservative impulse

basically saying, like the way that our institutions

were constituted before Trump came in

and took a wrecking ball to them, they didn't necessarily,

they weren't necessarily perfect, you know, they weren't,

you know, we weren't in a utopia before.

But these institutions matter, they were worth protecting,

you know, there was a lot about American constitutional democracy,

you know, within the bounds of the rule of law that was good

and that hopefully will still be good.

Once Donald Trump is done trying to attack it.

And this is, I mean, part of what we're seeing out here

in all of this is that this is a genuine force

in sort of currently constituted anti-Republican politics.

So it's a sort of thing that even though, you know,

I don't know, the readerships of Jacobin and current affairs

might not be like so wowed by it.

The, you know, the party leaders of the Democratic Party

candidates who are trying to get going

in Democratic Party politics right now.

You know, there's a feeling out there

that's worth channeling and I also think that the,

the sort of split screen between, you know,

some of these, some of these events that have rallies,

they have speakers, they have tables,

they have people who are trying to channel all of this energy

in one way or another.

And, you know, when I was out there for no kings too,

I went to three or four of these.

And it was, it was sometimes they seemed like the crowd was really into them.

Sometimes they were like, all right, they're talking over there.

We're just kind of here to, to be together and to march

and just to show our, show ourselves out in force.

So, so there is that big nascent energy out there.

I do not know to what extent, you know,

the powers that be in the Democratic Party

or in the left or whatever will take that to heart

and try to channel it into electoral outcomes.

But I do think that they would, they would be foolish

to just ignore this, this sort of mass mobilization.

Again, in this strange kind of conservative,

people are going to be mad at me in the comments

for continuing to call it conservative.

But, but, you know, trying to preserve what was good

about certain parts of the pre-Trump status quo.

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It's interesting that you, yeah,

it's interesting that you frame it that way,

because I remember last year, like when Doge was first

bringing in its wrecking ball chainsaw,

whatever metaphor you want to use,

Democrats seem sort of like trapped in this rhetorical space of,

if we're at least, maybe I'll put it this way,

Republicans had tried to frame it as a binary choice.

Either you were for whatever Doge was doing,

which was destroying things,

or you were for the status quo, right?

And so that's how Elon Musk and a lot of others

in the MAGA movement were trying to frame what they were doing.

That there were something so fundamentally broken

with government and with our institutions

that you needed someone to just come in

and just burn it all down.

And Republicans were getting back,

excuse me, Democrats were getting back into this corner of,

if you say, you shouldn't be burning it all down,

it sounds like you're saying everything is working

as it's supposed to, everything is working well.

And I think that the general public

kind of fell into that framing to some extent.

I mean, there was certainly a lot of media coverage

that implicitly had that as the binary choice.

But the general public has started to see,

like, oh, maybe there was some value

to the things that are being destroyed.

And maybe there is like a version of a reform

that's short of burning it all down

and purging all of the scientists

and purging all of the civil servants

and, you know,

tearing down all of the data sets and websites and whatever else.

And so I think on the,

I mean, this is a slightly different question

from the question of patriotism per se,

but it's related, right?

It's about to what extent do we try to rescue

our existing institutions from these attacks

of the MAGA movement,

or others who are sort of like almost more nihilistic

about how government should be run

or should not be run for that matter.

So I don't know.

I think it's interesting to see like how

the public views of things have changed.

In part, because as you point out,

Andrew,

you know, there has been so much rapid

destruction and change.

And it's not just about destroying stuff.

It's also about like sending in, you know,

masked armed agents into this,

into cities and snatching people off the street.

It's not just about like destroying

the existing administrative state.

There's a lot of actual expansion

of the administrative state in some, in some ways.

So, you know, I don't know exactly how

Democrats are going to ultimately respond to that.

There is still a strain or, you know,

a very strong force within the Democratic Party

that is also in the sort of burn it all down camp.

And again, it's a distinct question from patriotism,

but it is related.

And, you know, there's like this,

the system is rigged against you.

The system doesn't work as it is.

And we just need to tear it all down

and build something new from scratch.

As opposed to like sort of a more institutionalist

strain within the Democratic Party as well.

That's maybe a little bit more moderate,

maybe more small-sea conservative as you put it.

So, I don't know.

I don't know exactly how that's going to shake itself out

in the coming couple of years,

particularly as we leave into the next presidential election.

But I think you're going to see

those warring factions within the Democratic Party

continue to fight head-to-head.

And it's partly about the vision for

what does a post-Trump America look like.

Does it look like what we had pre-Trump?

And if so, to what ways does it depart from that?

And what are the things about America,

the American project that are worth keeping

or worth improving upon?

And I think that's still a really active question.

So, I let Flash come with me.

My oldest kid who has wanted to go to both of the previous protests,

I wouldn't let him.

And I finally wore down like fine.

You can come with me.

We're going to be there for like 30 minutes, that's it.

And he asked me what the difference was

vibe-wise between no kings and like the Trump rallies,

the Trump movements.

And I've been to both, you know, back in 2016,

I was out there covering the presidential campaign,

I was in a lot of Trump rallies.

And it, this sort of struck me as interesting

and maybe illuminating a little bit.

At the Trump rallies, what you saw was a lot of like real idol worship,

like Trump the man can fix it.

This guy is the savior, this is the strong man.

You also saw a lot of belief that America was fundamentally rotten.

And that this is, you know, like America, it's all bad.

We've got to, we've got to dream the swamp.

These things are broken.

This DEI is bad.

These immigrants are bad, all that stuff.

And then the third thing he thought was that there was a lot of us them,

a lot of like those people are the enemies of the real people.

We are the authentic valk and those people over there are not.

And the difference with the no kings, no kings really does,

well, I'll get to this in a minute.

The no kings really does stay away from deifying any person.

I mean, it isn't like AOC can save us.

And, you know, I don't think I see a, saw a single,

a single sign anywhere, you know, with like Bernie's my guy or Joe Biden or Kamala,

like it's, it's a very ecumenical people tend to see this,

they see as the enemy, they see Trump as a guy who is hoodwinked Americans.

And so like, you know, Americans are good.

They've just been misled by this bad person.

And a lot of belief that actually America is great.

And everything is awesome in America.

And what we're seeing now is an aberration.

And what we are seeing is a deviation from the norm.

And we've got to return to that norm.

And I thought that was sort of interesting and reflection of the two world.

There's another big difference.

No merch at no kings.

You're in a Trump rally.

There are people everywhere making money, selling t-shirts and pins and keychains and ways and

and there's nobody walking around selling American flags or anything like that.

In fact, the opposite.

In our protest, there was a huge supply of like inflatable costumes.

There's like, anybody wants to borrow a costume, walk around it for a half hour,

go ahead and knock yourself out.

Just please return it when you're done.

So anyway, I don't know.

Do you guys have any thoughts?

So Andrew, you went to a bunch of the Trump rallies back in the day, didn't you?

Yeah, yeah.

I've been to so many of them.

I think you're basically correct.

I mean, like there's ways in which

obviously there are a lot of ways in which it's sort of healthier at a human level,

right?

This vibe that you describe at the no kings thing versus the vibe that you saw at the Trump thing.

The other one other difference that is people on like quote unquote our side should probably contemplate

is the one good thing, quote unquote good thing in terms of achieving its aims for the Trump rallies

is that it's the ask is immediate and it's political and it's pre-tuned and it's right there,

right? I mean, you're at a Trump rally because you think that Donald Trump is the only guy who

can save this stuff. And so the ask is obvious. It's go vote for him the next time you get the

opportunity or go vote for the candidates who will support him, the candidates that are his

friends that he has specifically blessed or give him money or give them money.

You know, I mean, and part of what we're seeing here in this sort of like negative space rally

of the no kings thing is it's due the opposite of that, you know, opposed Donald Trump.

And there is this kind of admirable ecumenism that you're talking about where it's

pulling a lot of different kinds of people who probably feel a lot of different kinds of ways about

a lot of different kinds of things other than this. And that's really important. I'm not down

downplaying that at all. It is really important in this moment when they are so powerful to be able

to to to summon this sort of mass dissent out in the streets to basically just say you do not have

this popular mandate, you do not speak for the American people writ large just because you won

one election and you can't sweep aside all of the normal rules and laws just because you think,

you know, anything else would be to frustrate democracy. So that is important. But like you

were saying before Catherine, I mean, the the idea of how you channel this energy, this massive

latent energy into actual political power into actual political energy is not nearly so clear

because it's not pre-tuned. It's not just, you know, here's the one guy who's going to come out

on stage and we are all going to rally around him as our big populist figurehead. It's not clear

what person you could even put in front of these crowds who would who would elicit even just sort

of mass approval, let alone mass adulation and and that's fine. You know, no kings are not about

putting any one guy up on stage and and having them, you know, be like the the the avatar of the

popular will. That's that's not liberalism. That's not what this stuff is all about. But it is

messier. It is trickier to figure out how to harness it and there is a lot of work to do going

forward in that front. We're looking at Dallas on the feed right now. Sorry, go ahead, Catherine.

Oh, just going to say it's, I mean, Democrats are in the minority. So the question is who are the

when we were asking about like who what is the ask? Who are the people who could actually do something

to push back against the king or to try to, you know, channel the demands of the people who are

out protesting today, whether it's about ice or it's about war or Epstein or anything else.

And the answer is members of Donald Trump's party, right? They are in the majority.

They hold the marginal key votes that matter for raining in his various authoritarian impulses.

And the question is how do they interpret what's going on across the country today? And I don't

know the answer to that. I mean, clearly they are seeing some of the same images that we are.

They're probably going to get some of the same impressive crowd size numbers that we will hear as

well. But what do they do with that information? And that's, I don't know. So, you know, to some

extent, it does matter, obviously, what the people who are out there and politicians on the left,

Democrats, et cetera, what they do, how they orient themselves. But the actual people who hold

the levers of power, or the levers that could control some of the power that is being deployed

by the president, are the Republican politicians who are in the legislature. And I don't know how

they're interpreting all of this. I'm curious, Jay Bell, if you have thoughts on if you could read

the minds of the Mike Johnson's of the world or others, like what do you think their interpretation

events like today's are? Hold that thought. We'll come back to it. So, we're going to bring in

Anzli, Anzli Skipper, who is with us from Shaitan, Chicago. Anzli, how are you? Are they just

getting started there? Yeah, we just got started. We did a land acknowledgement, some safety tips

for folks, and some music is started behind me on the stage. People are like streaming in.

I get the lake is kind of on one side of me, and then people are coming in from the city from

the L, just constantly streaming in. And I heard you say that the mood was sunshiny this time.

I think that's really accurate. It's literally sunshiny here, but the mood here is very optimistic,

especially as compared to October when the city was really under assault. I think this time,

having kind of come out from that a little bit. People are still angry, but they're also hopeful.

So, what do you have a sense of what the crowd looks like in terms of demographics and size?

Were you in Chicago for the last one, Anzli, or wherever you?

It was. Yeah, yeah, that was huge. And I do think it is the first operation midway blitz was going on,

and the city really was the target of the administration at the time. So, this is so far

feeling maybe a little smaller, but it's hard to tell because people are still coming in,

and the march is sort of a second half of the event here. And so, a lot of folks will join

for that portion that aren't here at the stage for the programming. Gotcha. And a lot of war stuff,

people focused on the war, or is that still, is that background the way it's been in some way?

No, I've seen lots of anti-war signs, pamphlets being handed out. You know, a lot of generic

no kings, people with specific issues on their signs, war is definitely one of F-steen files everywhere.

Also, just seeing a lot of joy and peace and hope, kind of related signs,

descent is patriotic. So, kind of a grab bag, a definitely grab bag of people too. We were on the

train coming down from the north side, and just all kinds of different people from all different

neighborhoods, even though there are a lot of people going to those and then coming downtown as well.

So, it's really a cross-section of the whole Chicago land area, I would say.

Fascinating.

Katherine, Andrew, what have you got for her? Are you seeing counter protestors?

No, I haven't. A lot of police officers stationed on the outside, just to keep this event safe,

but really no counter protestors, no trouble so far. I really didn't see much of that in October

here either. So, you know, obviously, keep an eye on that. It's hard to tell because of how spread

out the event is. It's taking up a pretty big chunk of Grant Park right now, but so far, so good.

Yeah, I was, I was struck handsly, but what you said a minute ago about just sort of the,

the hadn't come out the other side from, from the stepped up ICE operations in Chicago,

at the end of last year. And I was noticing that too when, when Jim was talking about the,

the sort of feeling of whether they were going to, whether they were going to be similar operations

in, in Springfield, right? I mean, that was, which was just north of him, which is, I, I think,

maybe something that has kind of not, not to go up on a tangent, but maybe something that has

gone a little unnoticed is that there was a lot of fear a month or two ago, basically about whether

or not that was going to be the next Springfield Ohio is going to be the next Minneapolis or the next

Chicago because the temporary protected status for a lot of the Haitian migrants who were there,

who were such a flashpoint during the 2024 election had expired because the Trump administration had,

had cut them off early, essentially. So the question was whether they were going to go in and

force and scoop them all up and try to do another mass deportation there to kind of follow through

on 2024. And that never happened. That would have been right after Minneapolis. And it appears,

it appears, at least for now, that they have sort of gotten pulled feet on, on, on, you know, doing

another big kind of shock and awe, mass deportation. We're going to descend on a city and make this

have a sport of thing. So that was kind of interesting to hear that with with Jim and Chicago

earlier, and it's interesting as well to hear that, you know, I mean, is there any sort of sort of,

I don't know, Anseli, like, like, triumph would be the wrong word, but like, how do you describe

sort of the energy of having lived through that and come out the other side of it, like you're talking

about there? Yeah, I think maybe it's relief. I don't know that it's feeling like we've won

anything. And then there's still memorials up like in my neighborhood, there were signs that

will put up when people were taken, kind of marking the spot. Those are still up.

They're still ice outsides. They're still a focus on the fact that, you know, they haven't stopped,

they've got this water, they've gotten quieter. But I do think there's a sense of relief that

people aren't terrified to go outside anymore. Personally, the weather's also getting better.

I, you know, it's this time when it turns the corner in Chicago. And I think you're all

offensive, somewhat coincided with that, you know, heaven flow of things. But yeah, I think people

feel relieved and are not giving up and not, you know, they still care. They're still staying

informed, still going out to vice facility that's in Chicago suburbs. But there is definitely a

sense that we've come out the other side of the worst part of it. Well, that's very nice.

All right, Anzali, thank you from Chicago. Appreciate you. And we'll see you later on.

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Boy, we're prohibited by law CTC and C21 plus sponsored by Chamba Casino. So I just want to say one

of the things. So when we thought about asks in the beginning, part of the ask is really just

size and scale, right? I mean, this is they have talked about, well, we need to 3.5%, which

I forget the genesis of the well, if you can get 3.5% of the population on the street,

no regime can tolerate it. This feels a little bit like one of those, you know,

these are my 15 keys to the election stats. It feels a little arbitrary, little arbitrary,

like 3.7%, 3.3%. I need to hit 1,000 steps per day or whatever, yes.

If you get if you get 3.5% in the streets, you immediately score 10 victory points, which can be

applied to the next election. Yeah, or you unlock the secret level with the bonus coins or something,

I don't know. That said, like mass does have its own quality. And the step increase

from the June to October no Kings protest was very meaningful. I think if people felt like,

oh, there's momentum, like this is, you know, the first protest, nobody was quite sure what to

expect. It was larger than I think people generally anticipated. And then the second one,

okay, well, can we build on this momentum? And in fact, it was a reasonably large growth.

So far, what we're going to, again, it's hard to do this because everything is anecdotal.

None of these protests that we've seen look like step changes from October, right? Nobody is

coming to this and saying, yeah, I was here last time and holy shit, there's three times as many

people here. So I think that is actually a potential weakness. I mean, if we did, I think it was

seven million people at the October no Kings protest. Somebody can fact check me on that.

I think it was seven, seven and a half million. If this ticks backwards to like five million,

or God forbid four million, especially at a time when things have just gotten much worse for Trump,

wait, I mean, just, I mean, just objectively, things are worse for Trump. The economy is worse.

The war is worse. He is approval rating is worse. That would be interesting and it would mean

something. And I don't know what it would mean. We don't want to overinterpret it, but it would

mean something. And so we shouldn't be polyanna about that. Sorry, I need to get going. That is why I will

plug. I will plug why I'm going, which is that I co-host the show on MS now on Saturday since

any nights from six to nine p.m. So I have to get going to work on the show and new my hair and

makeup and all that stuff. And we'll be talking more obviously about the days events and hopefully

we'll have some numbers and stuff. Team test. Everybody go watch, go watch Captain on MS.

All right. Thank you guys. It was a good chatting with you.

JBL, can I ask you kind of a glib question? Yeah, go ahead.

If the president starts a war in Iran and gas jumps up like an extra buck 50 a gallon overnight,

does that increase turnout at a protest because people are angry about it or does that decrease

turnout because people don't want to get in their car and drive in? I mean, I think by everything we

think we understand about politics, it means that it should increase the protest turnout.

And again, I want to be a Debbie Downer. I don't want to be a Debbie Downer, but it does strike me that

if this isn't, if this goes backwards, that's a little bit of a warning sign. And it would make me

nervous. And on the other hand, the election turn, I mean, the election numbers everywhere we see

them are the election numbers. Like, you know, as an electoral matter, the ground is shifting

underneath Republicans running into the midterms. And like, that's just reality. That's happening.

And you see it in all the Republican retirements, right? We had more there wasn't there another

retirement yesterday. Somebody pulled out the last minute. Some House committee chairman like

pulled his filing, I think Andrew. And so I, you know, that's that's different. Yeah, my basic

sense of this, like, I understand why it's really like, narratively powerful and people would

like to see, well, if we just double this every time, you know, we could, we could have every

American in the streets, you know, by by August. And maybe, maybe the scales would finally fall

from Republican's eyes. And maybe, you know, we'd have such a, such a mass movement that, that,

you know, his cabinet would forsake him. And we'd see the 25th Amendment. And like, all those

things would be great. And in the same world. Sam Gray, by the way, thank you. Our colleague says

representative Sam Gray is who's the Transportation Committee chair. Yes. Yes. Like, when you chair a

very valuable committee, and you suddenly like, Hey, I think now I'm going to retire and spend

more time with my family. That's a bad sign. It's like seeing the birds, like you're relying on

the beach. And all of a sudden, all the birds start flying inland. It's not good. It's not good

sign. So, so like that, that kind of, you know, again, stepwise growth in perpetuity would be

amazing. But like as far as as far as the way that I see these protests is, is it is just a, a

constant sort of drumbeat of a reminder, again, about the falseness, the falseness of the president's

narrative of a broad popular mandate. And the fact that, I mean, you just have to keep saying it.

You have to keep going out there. He's out there every day, spreading his propaganda,

basically saying that the American people are with me. You hear him. Like, we, I said at the top

that that it seems like maybe some of their aims have gotten a little bit narrower. They are no

longer taking the fight to every single field because they know that they're courting a lot of

blowback and they're starting to kind of cringe away from that. And that's all good. But when

you talk about the president himself, specifically, and you hear him speak about the question of where

the American people are, I mean, it is, it is so obvious that he is floating further and further

into the clouds of everybody loves me. There's nobody in America who isn't, you know, touched in the

head or a total radical, you know, Antifa fire bomb leftist or paid who isn't with Trump. I mean,

like he talks about, you know, Steven Miller likes to talk about 80-20 issues that favor Maga.

And Donald Trump at an event this past week, he's like, I don't think they're 80-20 issues. I

think it's like 99-1 is kind of how he sees basically the concept. And so he's going to keep pumping

that out there. His base is going to keep parroting that and amplifying that. And look, just

we got to be out here selling the counter narrative. And if it caps at 8 million or it caps at 5 million

or it caps at 10 million, you know, more is better than fewer. It's a bigger, it's a louder signal

the more you get. But just, I mean, it's not going to, I am not prepared to like if we get numbers

that say it's 4 million or 5 million today to like start getting punchy about that to say,

oh, no, you know, we've peaked as an anti-Trump movement. I mean, I don't think that's true. I think

that I think that everything that we are seeing is that his popularity is lower and lower,

that his unpopularity, which is really what this is about, is ticking higher and higher.

You know, there's a lot fewer unsure. There's a lot fewer. Well, you know, there's a little good

and a little bad type guys out there. And there's nothing that you can do to counter the

sort of mass support propaganda better than just massive, massive, massive, massive turnout

for this sort of thing. So I think it's, again, we don't have final numbers and we won't have final

numbers, you know, and who knows whether the final numbers are exact anyway, ever. It's so hard

to count these sorts of things. It's all so distributed. Yeah, but, but, but, but I think big

show of force is the bottom line here as it has been, whether or not we ever hit any sort of

magical threshold of support that would unlock new powers for our anti-regime movement.

Yeah, all very well said. Thanks for being with us, everybody. If you are still yet to head

out to your protest, go do it. Go stand up. Go be counted. Go go support the people who are

standing up with you. And everybody else, hit like, hit subscribe, follow us, be part of the

bulwark community. And we will be back at you with more content like any minute because that's

all we do. Good luck, America. Tyler Reddick here from 2311 Racing. Victory Lane? Yeah, it's even

better with Chamba by my side. Race to ChambaCasino.com. Let's Chamba. No purchase necessary,

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