Mike and Chantell Sackett update

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Victor Miller and Tom Luna. Welcome to another episode of Here We Have Idaho. Thank you for joining

us in the KSPD 94.5 FM 790 AM on your radio dial. I'm Victor Miller, one of the co-hosts.

The other co-host Tom Luna is on vacation this week and we're just wishing that that is a

just a good time with his family and he sends his warm hello's and today we have just the most

amazing guests and it just we didn't even know the show was going to happen until yesterday and

that's how God works. But we have Mike and Shantel's Sacket with us and you may have remembered

that we talked about that name twice in previous shows with Megan Wall who is a constitutional

lawyer and she has talked about this case before it went to court in 2022 and after when the

decision was made so believe it or not here they are live in the flesh Mike and Shantel's Sacket.

Thank you for joining us on Here We Have Idaho. Good morning. Thank you for having us. Thank you.

So this is a story that is about really miracles not only religious ones which we definitely

have to talk about because there's an element of that too but just the fact that this was the

ultimate David versus Goliath with you taking on the US government and the environmental protection

agency and really setting a precedent for the first time that you have the right to actually

challenge the EPA and so let's let's start this because this is this story is 21 years old.

Oh my goodness. Shantel talk about how it all began when you bought a piece of real estate up

and produced a lake. Yeah so my husband and I have a construction company and we were living in

a house it was a beautiful house but I had always wanted to live on the lake but it was pretty pricey

so I thought well maybe if we could give a secondary lot I could we could build a nice house and

I could have a view of the lake and we wouldn't pay much in taxes so my husband had left to go

snowmobiling with some friends and one of the gentlemen that worked for us I was telling him

this he goes well I have a piece of property I go you do he goes yeah so Ron and I go over and he

shows me this property and I'm like well this is perfect well how much do you want for it

and he said you know 20,000 I said really and I said can I make payments

and he said yeah I go well you get the interest in carrying so yeah so that's what we bought and

it's a .63 acre in a subdivision and so my came home and I'm sitting there and I'm pretty quiet

and he's like what what's wrong and I said well nothing's wrong I I just did something he goes

what'd you do and I said well I bought something he goes oh okay what I go I bought a piece of property

you did what I'll teach you to go so yeah I'm not the one that usually buys anything big so we

about this lot and we went and looked at it and he's like okay if that's really what you want to do

we'll do it so Mike let's talk about like this piece of land you think is just a benign piece of land

because tell us tell people where it was situated and how far it was from the lake and you're

thinking this is no big deal yeah this is a part this very interesting so it was a subdivision that

was approved approved in the late 80s early 90s it had a sewer hook up to it there's a paved road

on the north side of it there's a gravel road on the south side which is between us and the lake

there's a house on the lot on the lot to the east and so we went through the process

shentell went and got all of our building permits and we went in clear the site we had prepped

the site for the foundation and literally the we were already had the contractor for the

foundation under contract to come in and start putting the footings in the next day and the EPA

and the Corps of Engineers show up and I'm going to put this out here for people to think about

because this is just interesting and you can do what you want with it but we have a Corps of

Engineers office and an EPA office in Cordillane that's an hour and a half drive from their office

to that piece of property these people from the Corps and the EPA the EPA the two EPA people

bought plain tickets rented a car and flew from Boisey and then the Corps of Engineers they came

from Walla Walla we don't know why that is but I just want to be here to establish subdivision it

does 300 feet from the lake houses all around you and suddenly some your house has a problem

has a problem and that's the thing that's just so ironic about that so they show up they say we

think they didn't know they said we think you're working in a wetlands so shentell and I weren't

at least like that that day we get back the next day and they want us to call them so shentell calls

Carla from and yeah so I just asked her I'm like oh do you do realize this is a subdivision right

well we know we don't know that and it's in our wetlands inventory I said what's that you know

she goes well it's an inventory that shows where the wetlands are in the United States and I said

really and I said there's nothing on our deed there there's nothing in there that says it's a

wetland or it's in a wetland or anything she says well we believe it is and I said well what do

we need to do and she said well we'll get we'll get back to we'll get a letter to you a letter okay

we're in construction we do it things all the time so you know we explain this is your second

language basically yeah so we just ended up waiting a little bit and then they called us back

and said well we still think it's a wetland you can't do anything with it why not and because

it's something that we regulate and I said okay so explain this to me so we have a paved road

behind us that's right that's higher than our property and then we have another dirt road in front

of us towards the lake and then there's a row of houses and there are houses on the left of us

there's a woods on the right and then houses on the right tell me why you can stop us from building

because I thought when you buy a piece of property it's your property there's nothing on the deed

so tell me why we can't build because we said so right and I didn't so the the issue was that

they gave you compliance order the US environmental protection agency gave you a compliance order

and said you can't do anything until you you know because these they said that you were the

the property was subject to the Clean Water Act and that you were legally placing film material

into these wetlands to put in your foundation in the middle of a subdivision 300 feet from the lake

with roads and houses all around you so talk about like when you when you heard that

what did you decide to do obviously didn't decide to quit so no well we waited till we got

a letter from them and then it wasn't the compliance order that they sent us was probably in the fall

yeah it took a little time about 2006 now 2007 2007 yeah and the one thing that was it's we kept

asking them why okay tell us why explain to us why and they would never put anything in writing

and then finally after we said no we're not going to agree we're not going to go buy wetlands credits

we're not going to go do all these things that you guys want us to do we're not doing it and that's

when they issued the compliance order okay and the compliance order basically says if you don't do

what we say you are subject to 22,000 23,500 or a day finds if you don't do these things and what they

wanted us to do which which really didn't fare too well for them when we ended up in the Supreme

Court over this is they wanted us to put the property back with with top soil plant wetlands plants

that were not native to North Idaho anywhere they'd never even been there and then we then they

wanted us to fence it and maintain that property for whenever as long as they wanted us to there

was no sunset date and we just said absolutely not right so you had the audacity to say hey environmental

protection agency we would like to have a hearing and did they grant you a hearing no in fact

no in fact that was another thing that was very interesting anybody that's in business it doesn't

matter what kind of business if you get into a dispute usually one of the processes to go through

mediation we've done that in business we formerly in writing asked the EPA to sit down and have

mediation with us not once but twice and they said no so what happened was is we thought well we

got to get an attorney what are we going to do so we go down and we see our construction attorney

pre-stripper he says this isn't anything that I know anything that I don't know anything about

this type of law so he sent us to an attorney in spoke and by name a less weather hit and when we

walked in we were sitting in less's conference room he came in and I had I met less years before

that so I knew him a little bit but he walked in and he his exact reaction was if I was attorney

right out of college I'd be standing on this conference table telling you guys to borrow steel bag

whatever money you can because this case is winnable yeah and so you know we were making some money

with our construction company I said well I'm willing to spend some money and he says Mike we're

talking millions of dollars and years of time and he says it's will be painful so we left

they're pretty deflated so winnable but painful little bit painful and we we left there we couldn't

even get to first base yeah he says you can't even get to first base Mike and so we left and a

couple days later he calls us and he said I can't get this case off my mind it's driving me crazy

this is one that should be that this one is precedent setting to set what he said and he goes I

call a friend of mine by the name of Reed Hopper that works for the Pacific legal foundation and

I said well what is that he says well it's a nonprofit law firm in Sacramento that was started

under Reagan when he was governor he Reagan brought a bunch of retired attorneys together so we

need a nonprofit to go up against the government just this same time as this exactly and so we talked

to we actually talked to the PLF and that's when we got introduced to Damien so you file a you file

a suit to contest the jurisdictional basis under the compliance or correct and you do that one is

what year is that that's 2008 2008 okay and at this point is is Damien on your team as a lawyer

yeah we hadn't met in person but we had talked on the phone and you know probably we were still

I was still very fearful because you have these fines racking up right from the day right and you have

the EPA government threatening you and they don't play fair and um and they're not brand new hearing

you're not brand new mediation though and they're telling you you just have to do what we say and

you have to like it right and no I don't like it and I'm not gonna do what you're gonna tell us

to say we will not do what you tell us to because we don't think it's right they can't do this in

America is what we were right so like David you get your sling shot you get your the Pacific

the Pacific legal fund and then you get your stone which yeah well the stone came from Ray and

Susan okay Ray and Susan K who would do environmental work yes so they ended up coming into our

office and I I believe it was 2009 I think I think that dates we had just had a conference called

with Damien on the phone and um all of a sudden these brand Susan Kagle come in our office and

he came in and sat by Mike's desk and he said I heard he have some problems with the EPA and we're like

how do you know that yeah your your old neighbor Jack Barron um well we just came from his place and he

told us and so um Ray said uh we want to take a look at your site and do a wetland delineation and

we're like okay but at that same time we had got on the phone again with Damien and so Damien's

on the phone conference with the Kagles they're listening and Damien's like you know we really

think you should just settle and Mike said I don't want to hear that word from you anymore because

this isn't right and so we get off the phone and Ray said what kind of attorney is that to tell

you to settle this is wonderful those guys are wrong and so then Ray started to give us his

credentials he actually worked for the Corps of Engineers for a very long time and I'll let him tell

you his story but he left because of overreach right and so when we went to the site I you

will I couldn't even explain the feeling I was having of having another person look at it and

go this is ridiculous there is no lands here it was affirming what you'd know and all along

that you're not crazy yeah somebody else in our corner and I'm like so so remind people like

the court the original court hearings were not good for you right you lost in the district court

you lost in ninth circuit right and what we so that was like we just want to have a hearing in front

of the EPA that was the basis of the lawsuit and they and you lost twice twice yeah we judge

Hodges right here in Boise he said no you can't through the government so then we ran it through

the ninth circuit knowing that our odds there were not very good and so when we lost at the

ninth circuit in Damien calls up he says Mike he goes you know there's only one other place to go

and and and Damien and I had gotten a little sideways a few times on on the word settle so I

won't get into that today but he when he called me on the phone there's only one place to go and I

said yeah I know and I says I think we're going he says well we're gonna try and I said well book

the trip to walk yeah book the trip and if they'll take it yeah and it's as to take it and and you

know you so the listeners know out there you have better odds winning the lottery then you do get

in the United States Supreme Court right you do and we had more than one attorney tell us that and

but you know we just felt all along and we it took us a while to get to the point where we had to

give this to God and let him he had this he had to be in charge and when we did that we just

we just we were not we didn't we weren't fearful it's you know we're crazy God I've read so

let's remind people the in the in the court which was the district court and the ninth circuit court

what they basically concluded is that you can only challenge the environment to protection

agency if they bring an enforcement action against you which seeks some kind of civil or

criminal penalties you hadn't reached that point so they're like there's no precedent to take

on the EPA in the manner you know you drink your facts set let's put it that way correct so anyway

team team sack it which is Ray and Susan Cagle from Cagle Environmental Damon Schiff from the

Pacific Legal Foundation and you guys and lots of amicus briefs yeah lots of them and what's

them really so tell us about the day you got the call from Damien saying you're not going to

believe this but you got to book your trip to DC gosh that's a cool story because the Supreme Court

of the United States is taking your little three two three quarter and anchor case and you know

obviously Damien was a very young attorney at the time and so and to get anything in the Supreme

Court there's attorneys out there that worked their whole life to try to get a case in the Supreme

quarter anyway I was going to a job site and it was a little before seven in the morning

and the phone rang and and I was like hmm I think that's Damien and I answered the phone

and he says Mike they took the case and honestly at that point I was like I thought this was

going to happen I just had a man here well and I had some holes that's right that's right I

had some really cool holy spirit moments through all that and when he called and told me that

it and you know obviously our life changed his life changed and a lot of unbelievable things

happen that you look back at it's like there's only one way this happens and and so then I

immediately I had to get to the job get the job going but I had to get my wife and the phones

they they took their case and then our both our phones so are you related or were you like oh my

gosh this could be the end I was related because again I just felt like someone was in our corner

and we were going to help you know scotus wasn't going to take it if they didn't really think

there was an issue so yeah so the Supreme Court of the United States basically the case was

answering two questions can you seek pre-enforcement judicial review in other words again the

previous courts were saying that you could only challenge the EPA if they brought an enforcement

action that involves civil or criminal penalties so a question is can you seek pre-enforcement

judicial review and the second one is well if you can then does that violate the due process

clause of the of the constitution so pretty big you can see why they took it absolutely I mean

there is a government overreach issue and like a constitutional issue it was both so talk to us

about what happened in the 2011 decision so 2012 and that was unanimous by the way the decision

it was unanimous so that was a great day that we were like this is amazing this is we didn't even know

exactly what it was going to do or how it was going to help people but we were just like hey all right

what do we do now what do we do next how is this going to happen right what's going to happen and so

we had a conversation with PLF and they explained to us well the next step would to be is to

go back to court and see if Judge Hodges what's going to end up back on his desk

right he was remanded back back to the court and he had to decide whether or not the EPA was wrong

in the wetlands the decision so by the way we should say the unanimous decision with the

with the with the opinion written by Justice Scalia who's a bad but he wrote that the for the

court he said the EPA compliance orders can be challenged and the administrative under the

administrative procedure act in the clean water act does not preclude judicial review so he's

like base to say okay I'm giving you the the record 9 is 0 said you have the right to go back

to the district court and now determine whether you have wetlands or not so now we're on phase 2

of your journey so but tell me what they say in in the it I mean it's I've listened to it a few

times but when you listen to that audio of the Supreme Court we were there one of the things

that Scalia said was he said don't let this case come back to my court don't let it come back here

you guys need to get this and he was really telling Congress to get it dealt with because in the big

picture of all this this was Congress's doings they didn't do their job in my opinion and a lot of

that's a totally there was vagueness that it was hurting people like yeah and that's Congress's

job so it came back to Hodges is sat on his desk for seven years no it did not yes it did

is that right here boycy for seven years yeah it was seven years 2019 and then the PLF was so then

we had to go back he denied we had to go back yeah so here's the one thing about another yeah

and then what he does is he he based he ruled against you he did said the jury is indeed

you have to fill in your property yeah holy so then we ran through the night circuit again and

in that was another interesting comment that was made was one of the liberal attorneys there

she even asked the DOJ's attorney well why don't you guys just get this thing

mediated with the sacks well at that time Damien wasn't our attorney in the night circuit

at that time Tony was and Tony immediately reacted because DOJ's attorney said oh we could

we could sit out with the sacks and get this figured out and Tony says that ship has sailed yeah you

asked for that like 10 years and he was and I will tell you right now I don't even have to ask the

sacks so they're never going to settle right which was a really cool to hear underneath the record

and by the way the other the other question that needed to be settled badly was what constitute

waters in the United States yes absolutely do you actually have a wetland paint yeah so that's part

two yeah so tell us you're back in the Supreme Court again in what year 2021 22 okay 2022

and now they're trying to settle this issue and what is the what is the court unanimously say again

it wasn't wetlands it was not wetland correct and that a boat could not float from our

piece of property to the lake did they actually say that and their decision not what it meant

money but that decision was the first one was obviously way bigger than what we really originally

thought it was going to be because obviously we were just fighting for our piece of property but

it's a precedent for everybody that was like you yep and now with this second win it changed it

forever and it helps I've it helps who we don't know how many people help with thousands right

and it's you know the EPA if if you just step back and look at that from the past if they

would have just stepped back and they would treat people with respect they wouldn't have taken

that that loss of this right well common sense to common sense if they had any common sense when

they were looking at each one of their so-called violations or enforcement so the beautiful thing is

we have now determined when you can seek pre enforcement we've figured out that you do have due

process under the constitution and we actually have a definition of voters water water of the United

States so now let's talk about just kind of the spiritual we have we have like three minutes left

but the spiritual side of this is that you know you you have to you weren't believers really as you

came into this whole thing you had lost your business through the cataclysm that was real estate in

2008 through 2011 here at I know and yet the Lord kept dropping these these people like your

neighbors on the new array and Susan right and so now they're on your team and then the

Pacific Legal Foundation your buddies and you know all of a sudden the Lord is putting this team

around you and through the fire you come out and you come out like me shack and a beg to go right

yeah yeah you're in the fire but you came out and the Lord was there with you and the

soul thing and talk about like what that did for you just for your faith I think for me the biggest

thing was is to realize once I once I really got it that God was in my life and he was talking to me

and I would have those Holy Spirit moments and how powerful that was and then you know this case

was got a lot of attraction with with David births glad but until I read that story it really didn't

hit like after I read it it's like and that's how we felt once we had that relationship with God

we we didn't have fear in our life every day David no more reason David being the last because he

wasn't scared no God had it and that's how we felt it's like we're just not going to live in fear

because we have we have this great relationship with with our holy our father and it gave us

confidence what about for you what it is what what it's always a light for you I you fork

every morning I wake up and I'm like okay God what would you have me do today to honor you

it's truly it's every time we go to a speaking engagement Mike and I pray and I pray God

help us to be a light right I have quite people towards you because that is the most important

thing is for people to understand that there is a father in heaven right and he wants to be

your all in all and that's what he's been for us so we don't have what we used to have but like

you said he has brought sevenfold you have treasures in heaven yes and that's really all that

matters isn't it yeah and our focus is number one our family but others getting to know him well

I mean I I the Lord brought you into my life yesterday I'm really grateful for that and I know

we'll have a friendship and I just appreciate what you what you did what you endured and the fact

that your marriage stuck together through 21 years of stress holy cow you'll be married 28

years next month it's yeah so three quarters of your marriages was under quite a bit of stress so

and we we just thank you Mike and Shantel Sackett for joining us and we thank you for sharing

your testimony not only on what the Lord did to assemble the team that could take down the

government legally and but the fact that he then introduced you to him with a personal

relationship and transform your life in that way too just a beautiful story and thank you for

being on here we have Idaho and as we always say before we sign off God bless the great state of

Idaho and again thank you thank you for joining us today thank you for joining us today on here we

have Idaho we hope you enjoyed today's show and we look forward to visiting with you for a half

hour each Wednesday and Friday at 4 p.m. on kspd 790 a.m. and 94.5 FM till next time God bless the great

state of Idaho