Michele Carson

Hello everyone and welcome episode 529 of the True Crime all the time podcast

I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime might Gibson. Give me how are you?

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All right, buddy. Are you ready to jump right into this episode of True Crime all the time?

I am we're talking about Michelle Carson and the late fall of 2010

Michelle Carson and her best friend went to Las Vegas to blow off some steam before finishing graduate school

Michelle chose to remain in Vegas when her friend left and then days later her body was found buried in the desert

And you and I have talked about it a couple of times

I had never been to Vegas until I was like 50 years old and now I've been twice in the last three or four years

Right because they've had crime con that's there. Yeah, and I'd always wanted to go although I'm not a big drinker

I'm not a big gambler, but I really like Vegas number one. I love food you do and Vegas man has some great food

You're a foodie. It's not cheap. It is not but they have some great food. They also have some amazing shows

Oh, yeah, so I would go there just for that. Yeah, you like those one type of shows. I know

The the risque the burlesque no my family and I would like the

Cirque de Soleil. Yeah, I'm believe good stuff

Michelle Carson grew up in Walnut, California

She was the daughter of John Carson and Esther

Daly, she grew up with her two older brothers Kevin and Daniel

Michelle met her best friend Vicki Rohas in the fourth grade and her interview for the show killer among friends

Vicki recalled that she had done something to upset Michelle and Michelle threatened to beat her up after school

Vicki's older sister found out and threatened to fight Michelle the school counselors discovered the conflict and told Vicki and Michelle

They needed to resolve their conflict and befriend and then ever since that time they were inseparable

It's almost like my first week at work when I worked for you

Mm-hmm

We had that big showdown when I was gonna fight you and then all everybody had to step in because they didn't want me to get fired and

And I thought oh, I've made a terrible mistake and hiring this man

Because the first weekend I want to pound him now. I'm just kidding how many times did you have that thought man?

I made a terrible mistake about hiring this guy never never never not even once

But it's a very interesting story they really is of how two girls

became best friends

I also kind of think maybe that might have happened in your life

I don't know you had one older brother and one younger brother. Oh, yeah, right?

So you know did your older brother ever have to come to your rescue?

Did you ever have to come to the the rescue of your younger brother when?

Somebody wanted to beat them up or somebody wanted to beat you up. That's a that's a yes both directly

I figured it was. I mean, you know when you're a sibling

You kind of got to watch out for your younger brother or sister as much as you know as you grow up

Sometimes you don't like your siblings, you know, but you still have to protect them. Yeah, because at the end of the day

There's still your sibling. Yeah, well, you know me. I'm an only child, but I've always heard that

You know, you're the only one that can be mean to them. Great

You can't let somebody else do it, but doesn't mean you're gonna treat them great, but

Be damned if somebody else is gonna do it family family eventually two other girls named Alexis and Amanda became part of the friend group

Which lasted after Michelle's high school graduation in

2003 and then into early adulthood

You probably had your little friend group didn't you? Yeah, and I still do yeah, I am still friends with a lot of the people I went to

High school with I'm actually

More so friends with them than I am with the friends. I'm aiden college, which is not true for everyone

Well, that's that's you're right about that. Now is this the group that you used to do golf outings with? Yes, yeah, okay

So we did golf outings every year

Until I got to the part where I couldn't play golf anymore

I'd still be going if I could play golf

Her friend said that Michelle was the strong protector protector of the group. I get that. That's probably you

I mean just wearing the singlet alone. Yeah kind of tells other people

Don't mess with this group. Yeah number one. I may not have it all together

so

steer clear just

Crazy Saturday night. Yeah, my buddies with my singlet on yep. Yep

No cup. No nothing just free ball showing what God gave you

Michelle was a criminal justice major at Cal State Fullerton

It was here that she met her boyfriend Justin Burke

Justin played basketball from the school

For the school from 2004 to 2007. I guess he had to be pretty decent if he played for Cal State. Yeah, I mean, it's not a huge

Basketball program, but it's not terrible. I mean, that's that's pretty good

I mean if you play at the college level you're decent, right? You have to be I think so get to be pretty good

Yeah, Justin was the son of former University of Nevada lost Vegas basketball player

Michael spider-man Burns who played college basketball in the late 70s and early 80s and

Justin had been a top

200 high school product just like

I was but not for basketball. Yeah for what not really supposed to talk about it

Top two what you have never been top 200 in anything in your life except for the number of free meals that you've gotten

You are definitely in the top two high top water there, but that is impressive, right? You think about how many high school basketball players are

Out there oh man because it's not just the US they'd rank Canada and other places as well. Yeah, that's that's saying something that is

Justin and Michelle were on again off again for about five years from the outside

It seemed like they were happy, you know loving couple

Michelle's friends though took notice of their frequent

Breakups, but they didn't think anything was seriously wrong and I think a lot of you know couples go through that

Okay, they break up they get back together

You know at that friends like that you're like wait, what you and Kim aren't together now? Oh, okay the next day you are

Yeah, what's going on? What's happening here? I think you know sometimes people

What's the word?

And they jump right they jump too quickly they get upset

But then they quickly realize hey, I really love this person. I can't live without this person. I think that happens a lot

Sometimes I think people like drama too. Well, they really do some people do

The problem here is though that Justin had been violent with Michelle in the past

According to the San Gabriel Valley Tribune

He slapped Michelle

Sources didn't explicitly state this, but it seemed that

Bikki was one of the only people if not the only person who knew about the problems between Michelle and Justin

You know, that's a lot of shorter right there, you know, it is and I think

It's probably not that unusual, you know, how many times do we talk about?

You know a couple looking

Too perfect or you know from the outside looking in it seems like they have it all they're in love

But you just don't know what's going on behind closed doors

Unless

Somebody chooses to confide and it sounds like Michelle chose to confide in her close friend Bikki

Bikki never discussed Michelle's private life with anyone. She said I was like her secret diary. That's a true friend, right?

Well, that's a good quality to have and a best friend, right? If you're going to tell them something that you don't want

Other people to know

You got to trust them to keep that secret. Yeah, and they got to honor that

Michelle once told Vicki that she and Justin got into an altercation

Things got pretty heated and Justin pushed her against the wall and put his hands on her neck

That stuck with Vicki throughout the years, but she never thought to break Michelle's trust by

Telling someone

Vicki recalled that she did once tell her friend Michelle if something ever happens to you

Do you understand what I'm gonna have to tell your parents?

Well, and it's a good point

It's also a very tough place for her to be in yeah, you kind of parked her in that uncomfortable zone, right?

If she betrays

Michelle's trust

That's gonna wreck the friendship, right?

But she loves Michelle and wants to look out for her and really once maybe someone else to know this because

She doesn't think it's right and obviously it's not right. No, it's not no man should ever be you know pushing

A woman up against the wall putting his hands around her neck slapping her in the face. That's we know that's not right

Michelle graduated from Cal State Fullerton in

2008 and decided to go to graduate school

Justin dropped out of college

By 2010

Michelle seemed like she was on the right track for a successful career

Once she earned her masters she planned to work with young people to help them avoid being trapped in the criminal justice system

I was like she had a plan. Yeah, and it seems like she was working towards that and

And it sounds like it would probably be a pretty fulfilling

job. Yeah, I think so or career

Justin had played for a pro basketball team in Portugal, but was let go

By 2010 he was living in Las Vegas couch surfing and had no job according to A&E

couch surfing

Remember those days I do know no I've never couch surfed at anybody's house recliner surf

Oh, no, nothing always had a job always had my own plays. I did too. I know

I wouldn't know what to do if I had time to couch surf

Well, first of all nobody would let you stay in their place sleep on their couch

Nobody wants me

But here's the thing I want to talk about right we we did talk about how

Good of an athlete Justin was you know top 200 prospect

And that can lead to a lot of great things

But obviously it didn't work out for him in college. I said it right he dropped out right and then

What happens when you don't make that right your dream of playing basketball and getting paid to do it

And you don't have the backup which is getting the degree or you know all that now you can make some good money playing overseas

Yeah, I had some friends that I played with that made

You know over half a million dollars a year playing in the European League playing overseas. Yeah, it's good money

Yeah, but it only lasts for so long exactly. It's not

A long-term solution. No, it's not like you're not LeBron James making 56 million dollars a year right

Okay, if I played one year I'd be like oh, I'm good. Yeah, just retire

No, but you know those guys make so much money. Yeah, that they don't really need anything to fall back on

No, as long as they invest right yeah now there have been

College stars who get drafted very high. I can think of the one guy from Duke

He got in a motorcycle accident his

Rookie year and he never played basketball again. I don't think or he never was at the same level

So he made some money, but that was it. Yeah, and he didn't he but he fell back on broadcast

At least he had his college education or he went back and got it. I don't know yeah a lot of those guys leave early

But they do go back and get it. Yeah, I've heard even a guy like Steph Curry. Yeah as good as he is

He went I think he went back and got his degree. Why not which is pretty cool

At one point Michelle was living with Justin and Vegas, but Michelle moved to West Kovina, California

To live with her father by the summer of 2010

It seemed like Michelle and Justin were broken up for good in the fall of that year

Both Michelle and her best friend Vicki Rohan's were looking forward to finishing graduate school

And that's a big accomplishment, you know my daughter finished um last year

That was awesome. Yeah for her. Yeah, and she got her first job

Now she's under second year of that job. Yeah, I mean time flies

But I was so proud of her

For that

However, Vicki recalled that around this time she felt sad and unsure of what to do next

Michelle was the one who suggested a girls trip to Las Vegas to blow off some steam

You know not wrong with a girls trip or a guy's trip

You know those are kind of fun like we were just talking used to do some golf trips. Yes. I'm sure you had a blast

We did we did always came back

Uh

Little hungover, but refreshed. Yeah, you know um

I think Vegas is a great place to blow off steam. Oh, yeah

It's also a great place to get yourself in trouble. You can get yourself in a lot of trouble

Yeah, you can do that anywhere, but especially I think in Vegas. It's a lot easier there

Yeah, because there's just so much available to you. What is known as the send city or just as send city

I don't think they call it thus and

So apparently they didn't have like a specific itinerary. Yeah, this wasn't like a pig in the poke

You know itinerary where you got to be

To certain places, you know, yeah, but they plan to go shopping lounge by the pool and just have a fun relaxing trip

And that would be the definition of my wife's favorite vacation of all time

That was to say that fits right up and her

Yeah, that's in her wheelhouse, right? Shopping lounging by the pool

So they arrived on October 26, 2010 on their first night in Vegas

They went to the casino saw a show and went to dinner

They spent the evening with Michelle's friend Amille who didn't live in Vegas, but was there for business

Vicki noted that Amille had a crush on Michelle which was not reciprocate. That happens sometimes

It does

You know in a perfect world

Each person would have a crush on the other. Yeah, right? And then you know something would happen

but I think

Very often one person is enamored with the other yeah, but the other person doesn't feel the same way about them

You have the crushy and the crusher. Yeah

Yeah, I don't know if they would use terms that way, but I get what you're saying

The problem is then somebody's getting stuck in the friend zone. Oh, yeah, and you know friend zone

Horrible not a fun zone. No, it's I

It's not that you don't want to be friends

I've just always felt like I had have enough friends. That's the way I felt like in high school

I've got all my guy friends. I don't need more friends. I need that others. I need a girlfriend

Well, you know that makes me sound like I never had one which I did you had plenty

But I did get stuck in the friend zone too

And did not like it, but then you have your wonderful beautiful wife for 30 plus years. Yeah

So but that sounds like a good first night, right?

Casinos show dinner. Yeah, how can you beat that? No, what else do you need that's Vegas?

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On the night of October 27th, they stayed out until 11 p.m

They were staying in a suite that had two bedrooms and a living room

Vicki was in her room

But came out to the living room because she heard of noise

She was surprised to see Michelle's ex-boyfriend Justin in their suite. Oh

So

You know already as we're into this episode

We have two guys

That I think we have to take no to we do right just him for sure because he's the ex-boyfriend. Oh, yeah

Now come to find out he's in Vegas

With them on what is supposed to be a girls trip all girls trip only and then we have this guy a meal

Who they didn't go with but they ran into yeah, and it was said that he had a crush on Michelle

But she didn't you know feel the same one

Now Vicki said she knew justice was Justin was living in Vegas

But Michelle hadn't told her that she was going to invite him over

Michelle was still sleeping her room

Justin told Vicki that Michelle mentioned she was feeling sad lately

And I think I'm guessing she didn't want to tell her

Because she knew that her friend would be like hey, this is supposed to be a girls only

We can what are you doing inviting him

Well, I think that's that's the one part of it the other part is

Right Vicki's the only person who knows

That he has been violent

Yeah towards her so out of all her friends

She's probably going to be the last person who wants to see this guy

And then even in the same room. That's true together. Yeah, that's kind of my thought on it

Vicki recalled that Justin was outwardly friendly, but she felt creeped out especially because he was quote

Preaching to her about life he then told Vicki

He was going down to the vending machine and left the room. Well, he probably didn't know Vicki knew everything

That's true, you know, I guarantee you Michelle did not

Share that with Justin. Yeah, because that wouldn't have gone over well

At all

Vicki went to check on Michelle because she just had this kind of weird feeling

About her friend she peaked into Michelle's room and saw her chest rising and falling and thought to herself. Okay

You know, I'm losing it. There's nothing to worry about. She's not dead

And so she snuck out of the room

Justin then returned and asked Vicki and odd question. He asked

Do you think Michelle is a good person? Vicki replied. Yeah, of course. She's my best friend

Right. I think she's a good person

Michelle then entered the living area and asked Justin what he was doing and told him to leave Vicki alone

Justin left their hotel

It's just a very weird

interaction really is

First of all she shocked to find out that he's there

Then she she has this disturbing thought that you know after he leaves maybe something's wrong with Michelle

But she sees her breathing. Yeah, she's her chest going up and down

But then this question do you think Michelle is a good person? That's that's such a

A weird question to ask the person's best friend

Even if she thought she wasn't a good person

It's her best friend. She's gonna say

Yes, she is a good person. Yeah, but why would you think your best friend's not a good person? Well exactly

I'm just saying no you just said even if she thought you

If if maybe she's I don't know

Do you see how sometimes roads lead to nowhere?

Somebody out there knows what I'm talking about oh there's only someone who will come to your defense believe me

I understood exactly what he was saying

Vicki didn't call or text anyone about Michelle meeting up with Justin and Vegas because

She wanted to protect her friend's privacy

She also didn't ask Michelle about it in the morning because she assumed they were getting back together again

And I can't say it enough, yes, but I I really feel like Vicki is in a kind of a tough position here

It is a tough position because if you want to complain about like you can't really say

He's such an ass. You shouldn't be with him

You know I was gonna get back to gas. I know I've been in that. Yeah

I've been in that scenario. It's awkward where you don't like your friends

Boyfriend or girlfriend. Yeah, but you have to be careful what you say about him because

It might not be over for good exactly, you know, you know until it's like been sign stamped

Double stamp sealed. I don't know

Well, you can't triple stamp a double stamp. Oh, that's true. Yeah, it's not loud anymore. That's just that's just fact

Yeah, by October 28th Vicki wasn't feeling well emotionally. She tried to have a good time

She Michelle and their friend Emile went to dinner and a show, but Vicki couldn't stop crying

She just felt this really strong sense of dread that only got worse as the weekend went on

Well, that's a bummer. Yeah, it's terrible

Eventually it got so bad she decided she had to leave

Vicki hoped Michelle would want to go home, but Michelle decided to stay

Vicki was disappointed because she just really didn't want Michelle to get back together with

Justin yeah

When Vicki got home

She tried to give Michelle space to let her figure things out with Justin

She also kind of hope that not texting her calling her friend would express her disappointment

You know, that's that's can work sometimes it can it sounds like a strategy that I might try to be honest with you

Yeah, I can see you doing that you know, just I'll just ignore you for a little bit for a little bit

Let you wonder why no, you don't have to wonder you should be able to figure it out

I don't need to call you and say hey, I'm disappointed in what you're doing the fact that you're not hearing from me

Should tell you I'm not happy with what you're doing. Hey, that's only happened a handful of times in our relationship

very rarely

Really some other people in my life have experienced it more. Let's just say

Someone's occurring. It's it right now also. I'm just saying it right now just because I say I do something

Does not mean other people should try it?

It does not always work out well for me it came back fire. I'm being honest about all of it

so

Michelle finally called Vicki on the night of November

six

2010

Vicki was still frustrated

So she didn't answer which she regrets. Yeah, of course now

It's not her fault, right? We say that time and time again

There's no way that she could have known what was

To happen. Yeah, but there's also no way

That you're not going to have feelings of regret after it does

Investors believe that Michelle and Justin were attempting to give their relationship

Another shot, but things didn't go smoothly

The couple went out to dinner at the cheesecake factory on the night of November six

They were seeing arguing that night. You know why? Because they were arguing like why is it taking you so long to pick one of the

500 things off this menu to order? I'm telling you what I

I don't like the cheesecake factory for that very reason. Yeah, their foods. Okay. Yeah

Their desserts. They're good. Yeah, it is a cheesecake factory. That's true. The problem is

If you got more than 20 pages in your menu, you've lost me absolutely because now I've seen

Multiple things that I might want to try and I can't decide you can be good about you can be good in a few things

You can't be great as you know, that's the other thing. Yeah, right

There's a reason why these iconic restaurants don't

Have a menu with

150 different things on right, you know, this is what we do really well

Take your pick. Yeah, keep it simple man. Yeah, I don't know if they've paraded down

I stopped going to be honest with you. I haven't been there in years. I heard something about

Bankruptcy recently. It would not surprise me

And I'm not bad mouthing cheesecake actor. I just think it's it's bad execution. You just got too much stuff. Yeah, exactly

The next day

November 7th

West Covina officers knocked on the door of John Carson's home and asked if Michelle lived there

And if she was in lost Vegas

John confirmed his daughter was on the trip and was informed that Michelle's car had been found abandoned with the engine running

And she was nowhere to be found. So right there would scare the you know what out of any any father

Yeah, at that point. I think that's easy for you and I to to put ourselves in right that position

I've got two daughters. You've got a daughter in the sun

I don't I would be speechless. I think you know

I'm almost speechless right now, right because I just I don't even know how that would hit me

I just know it would be

It would hit hard. Yeah, it'd be a very sinking feeling

Is what I imagine

Another officer was dispatched to do a missing persons report

John called his ex-wife

Michelle's mother aster

daily on

In her interview for the show

Killer among friends

Esther noted that she and Michelle talked off it

But she hadn't heard from Michelle that week. She texted her daughter and received no response

John Carson called Vicki Rojas, but she didn't answer

Michelle's brother Kevin drove to Vicki's house to talk to her

Vicki explained that she didn't know where Michelle was because she had decided to stay in Vegas

Michelle's family asked her

Why she decided to come back early and this is where Vicki kind of had a difficult time. Yeah, you know

explaining her feelings of

Sadness this strange encounter with Justin Burns

She recalled I remember wanting to explain what I had just experienced

But it was dark and I've been able to like things straight

I would have been able to tell her come back with me

I regret not doing right and again. There's that regret right. You're gonna have it. There's no way around

Yeah, you know, I can be a shake that by November 8th those close to Michelle were frantically trying to reach her

Vicki called Michelle's phone provider

And pleaded with the person on the phone to tell her the last person Michelle call

It was Justin's brother who said he had no idea where Justin was. Yeah, so there's a couple of things there

Number one

That it's amazing that you know, they were able to get the phone company right to cell phone company to give them that

But then to find out that

Last call was to Justin's brother. Yeah, that's

Strange and then he's saying he has no idea where his brother is. Yeah, some seems weird

I mean at the very least you're not getting any answers to your questions. You're just kind of getting more questions

I'm gonna say yeah, it's not nothing there is helping this situation. No, if anything is just making it even more cloudy

On November 9th

Michelle's family and Vicki drove to Las Vegas Vicki told them all about the last time she saw Michelle

Her encounter with Justin and that when she left

Michelle was asleep and seemed fine

She said she was worried about Michelle getting back together with Justin

You know all those secrets she held in now have to come out. Yeah, and I think you got to be

Completely honest with the family at this point, right and not worry about

As much about the consequences because they need to know everything absolutely right now because we got a real

Tough situation going on

Michelle's family went to the police station and they received the devastating news that Michelle's body had been found in the desert

just outside the city

Which is heartbreaking? Absolutely

It's also you know the thing about Vegas that you notice

Immediately when you fly in right Vegas is like this

Kind of oasis and just surrounded by desert just desert everywhere

And I think that's why in all the mob movies

You know people get killed in Vegas and they are

Driven to the desert and buried buried and forgotten and I don't

Think that that's just a movie thing. I think that probably happened quite a bit. No, I do too

I think there's make to think how many bodies are probably really out there. Yeah, it's kind of like the old

You know New York thing, you know buried or thrown in the Hudson or whatever it was

With cement shoes

That that happened it does it did it did I'm probably maybe still does

I don't know how much mafia

quote unquote is left. I don't think it nearly as much as there used to be no

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Back on November 7th

Target shooters in the desert south of Las Vegas Boulevard and St. Rose Parkway found a burned body

under some rocks

Investigators identified her as Michelle and determined she was strangled to death

John Carson later told the Las Vegas review journal

We couldn't even bury our daughter. There was nothing left. Yeah, I mean how terrible is that that someone

burned her

strangled her burned her

But think about this family, you know, you go from

Thinking something's wrong, right? Can't get a hold of your daughter

To you know fairly quickly learning that she's dead and was murdered strangled and burned

Yeah, I mean, it's bad enough that they burned her. I mean bad enough that they murdered her

Yeah, but then they had to go to the next level and left

The dad the mom with nothing. Yeah, basically

but

What does that say about the killer?

Yeah, trying to cover their track. That's what I think yeah, right fire does destroy certain things or can

I don't know why else you would want to do that

other than

You're so mad at this person maybe you want to

Just figure them even further

But to me it's probably more than likely about

trying to erase

Evidence right when the police interviewed Vicki. She initially wasn't thinking Justin was involved

But the police were asking questions about him and wanted to know if he had ever been violent with Michelle

And we talked about it, right? Vicki

Never discussed Michelle's private life. Yeah, but she realized that she needed to share what she knew

About Justin and Michelle's relationship. Absolutely. I mean

How can you not you now know she's been murdered right? You're talking to the police the police are asking you about the relationship

If there was ever a time

To spill your secrets. It's now everything has to be out out in the open. Yeah, but I can also see why

Initially she wasn't thinking

Justin right because

She went into check on Michelle

she saw her chest

Rising up and down yeah, and then

Justin left. Yeah, now she did later leave and go back home and Michelle was there for a

period of time, but you know, I could see why she might not have thought it was him at first and

It turned out this was the first time

Michelle's parents

Were ever aware that there was violence in the relationship and that doesn't surprise me

No, not at all. Yeah, Vicki's not gonna tell them. No, Michelle's not gonna tell them

No, because if someone came to you

You know your daughter came to you or your daughter's best friend came to you and said you know what your

Daughter's boyfriend's doing

That relationship the best that you could would be over. Oh, it's over. Yeah

And that's why

Most likely Michelle wouldn't want to tell her parents. Yeah, because if they're going back and forth right if they're on again off again

Once you tell them that it's really gonna be hard for it to be on again right and for you to bring this guy around

Almost impossible. It's impossible

Yeah, no dad or mom is going to allow that or want this person in their house

They're not gonna be happy with you

Right for making what they think is a bad decision. Yeah, and there are some dads who you know

Might take it even a step further

Let's let's put it that way. Yeah, I know one of those John Carson had initially suspected that perhaps

Justin was murdered too and was buried in a different location and that makes sense right

They don't know where he is his brother doesn't know where he is and maybe they got robbed and

You know somebody killed both of them at the same time, but they buried them in different locations. Yeah

So detectives focused on finding Justin

But they found out he had fled the Las Vegas area

Cell phone record showed text between Justin and Michelle the night she was killed

They had gotten into an argument and it appeared the Michelle locked him out of where she was staying

It was a ping on Justin's phone

Close to where Michelle's body was found and then after that his phone turned off and that is never a good sign

It is not it's kind of kind of a tell

Yeah, but I again, I don't understand how

people don't know how cell phones work

And that they're tracking

Everything you do you know, let's go back to the Idaho College murder

So, you know look at Brian Cobrager

You know, they know

He turned his phone off right and then at some point after the murders he turned it back on

Now does it put him there? No that alone doesn't but I mean it might as well. Oh, yeah

I mean, it's damning. It's yeah, you can't get around it. No

I don't I don't understand why you just wouldn't leave your phone

Some place yeah don't bring it with you and just not take it with you

But again, we don't want people to know what these killers to to think like that we want them to get caught

Sometimes I do think it's that

Maybe they're not ignorant of it. I know he was and he was in uh he was in criminal

No, it's right. He was in watch my barber. Yeah

Why am I drawing a blank same thing that Michelle was in yeah criminal justice

Yeah, that's what he that's what he was in

So he knew about it, but I just think they think they're so smart. What exactly he thought he was smarter and he did

He was a real yeah, horses that exactly. I just think he thought he was gonna you know

Out smart everybody. Yeah, I'm with him. I definitely I just then yeah, I don't know

On March 17th, 2011 Justin Burns was arrested in Jackson, Mississippi

Where he had been hiding with relatives in early December 10

10

We'll go with that then someone say how we didn't say the 2000 right I always say like the 80s

Yeah, I don't say 1980, but I don't say what is it because you wouldn't say the 10s here

No, no, you wouldn't but you would say the 80s or the 90s right yeah

No, it's um I say in 2010 instead of 20 10 oh, okay, but I don't say

1,980 right I say 1980 I got and people always wonder why I say it like that. I don't know why I say it like that. It's just the way I say

So in early December 2010 or 2010 however you want to say it a woman came forward to police alleging that Jason Burns

Justin's brother told her boyfriend that

Justin killed his girlfriend and burned her body in the desert

The woman's boyfriend allegedly confirmed

Jason Burns suspicions about his brother's involvement in the murder. Yeah, you know, it's gonna be rough to hear that your brother did something like that. Yeah, but

He did especially if you don't think of your brother as as a murderer or not if you do maybe it's not that rough

Maybe that's not hard to believe. Yeah, I don't know

But again here, right you take your cell phone with you

So you've got your phone pinging right and you're not a stranger. No

How do you think police are not going to look at you as the

On again off again

Ex-boyfriend you are if not the first person that we're looking at you're right up there. Yeah, you're at the very top, right?

So you have that and then you go and tell someone that you did it

Come on now, and you're hiding out. Yeah

You just you just everything you're doing is screaming guilty. Yeah, so

It was also noted that in the weeks after Michelle's body was found

Justin's father Michael Burns refused to cooperate with police regarding his son's whereabouts

Police all also discovered through phone records that Michael Burns was looking for psychiatrists to help Justin

In the wake of an incident with his girlfriend

Okay, it's a little more than an incident. Yeah, I mean I get it, you know

Parents want to protect their kids right or wrong and

Sometimes they want to shelter them

from

You know doing what's right

Getting in trouble getting in trouble, but it's a tough call. I mean it is you would like to say and I think everybody would

No, I would do the right thing. Yeah, right every time

But then you're looking at your son or daughter and thinking I don't want them to go to jail

I don't want to lose them forever. Right, so

Do I do I blame the parents? Yeah, I do because they're not doing the right things, but

Can I also be honest and say I'm sure it's not the easiest decision for everyone right and I would say yeah, I get that

So Justin was charged with murder

prosecutors accused him of driving Michelle's car to the location where it was found

burning her body

And bearing her remains in the desert many people who knew Justin were surprised to learn of his arrest

His college basketball coach Bob Burton said he was a really bright kid fun to coach

She was never a violent person people really liked and I'm sure he was to these people

Right some people don't

Show their violence side to everybody

You know, they might only show it to their partner true

They might only show it to one partner. Yeah, or they might only show it to

You know

Females if you're a male with whom you're in a relationship with

You may not show it with your teammates or other males

And that's why sometimes people can't understand

You know when they hear that this person did something so bad. They're like that doesn't sound like him

Yeah, it's not that that's you know, we didn't know him like that

But again

You're if you're gacy

You're not gonna show the violence side to all your neighbors. Oh, you're gonna have a picnic. Yeah, we're a

Block party. They're gonna be an outstanding citizen. Yeah, I mean, that's just how I mean again

We're not talking apples and apples here. We're talking serial killer versus this kid

But I think the same rule applies in that and not just with killers

Just people don't show all their cards to everyone. No, they don't

In November 2011 friends and family gathered at Michelle's home in West Kovina to pay true

Her life and to raise awareness for domestic violence

John Carson said per the daily breeze

We just want to raise awareness bring everyone's attention to how big a problem it is

Rich poor middle class

It touched everybody's life. Yeah, and that's the one thing about it

It doesn't seem

To miss any

Segment of the population

Right

You know people can be abusers

If they're billionaires millionaires

Middle class poor it doesn't matter

Spans at all it does

Michelle's parents said they felt obligated to speak on her behalf

According to John Carson she's been silenced

Myself and my family will be the voice of our daughter

Depression can destroy you. We didn't want that to happen

That's not what our daughter would have wanted

And it'd be easy to

Delve down into depression. Oh, I think it'd be very easy. Yeah, right to just fall apart

But I think this is what you see from a lot of families

They're trying to process the grief

And a lot of times they channel it into trying to do something good. Yeah, maybe in the name of the person that they've lost

In this case array, you know raise awareness for domestic violence

Help other people that might be going through the same thing. Yeah, absolutely

Michelle's mother ester daily on said if we can save someone else that's what we want to do

Michelle's parents acknowledge they'd never given much thought to domestic violence until they learned it could have played a role in their daughters death

Justin had never given them a reason to worry

But they later learned he'd been violent with Michelle and had slapped her

Justin was polite and respectful when in front of them

And I think a lot of these people that do this kind of thing. They're like that, right? Yeah

You you would think and as we kind of already mentioned that they are a great guy

You know, man. I love having them around

You know the family and it's so much fun. Yeah, meanwhile

You know they're doing things that they shouldn't be doing behind closed doors

What you're not going to go over for Sunday dinner with her parents and let the monster out. No

That's not gonna work. It's not gonna fly

And I know it happens on both sides too. It does. I'm just saying him because

In this case, yeah, it was a he

John Carson said we had no idea

Absolutely zero idea until it was too late. There was no way we would think he was that type of person

In 2012

Vicki told the Las Vegas Review Journal that she wished she had told Michelle's family

About the abuse when she was alive Vicki said

I never thought it would get to the point where he could take her life or would take her life

I think is what is the word she used but

Again, I the position she was in it was not an easy one. Yeah, I don't know if any person that is

Tied into domestic violence

Realizes it could go as far as it has or maybe as far as it could

That makes sense did does not

As if it's already happened and they obviously would realize it could go that far. Yeah, I guess I I think in their mind

You are you talking about the person who's experiencing it or in this case the person who knows about it

No, the person in this case knows about it. I don't think they realize it could get as bad as it

Yes, that I understand yeah, okay, yeah

So I think the person experiences doesn't want to believe it's as bad as it is. Yeah, that that that would make sense

Yeah

Vicki said she thought she was being a good friend by keeping quiet

She said I was the person who would keep her secrets, but some secret you shouldn't keep and man

I just I think she's haunted yeah well for sure and

I feel bad for I really do yeah in her interview for the show killer among friends

Vicki recounted how at one point after his arrest Justin called her from jail

He wanted her to remember the day she saw him in the hotel and to confirm

That he was out of his mind that day she hung up on it. I would too

Are you trying to use me to help you get some type of what insanity plea or something? Yeah

Justin spent years using procedural delays to avoid going to trial

He even wrote a letter to Michelle's parents, which her father said was full of excuses, but little accountability

Yeah, shocking exactly

John Carson did meet with Justin and asked him to take responsibility and stop putting off the trial

On July 31st, 2017 Justin Burns agreed to plead guilty to second degree murder

On September 26th he received a sentence of 10 to 25 years

It's late. It is late

Not happy about that, but you know what um, I'm assuming that uh, I'm hoping that the prosecutors talk to

John and family and yeah, and we don't know all the details, but you know, maybe their case wasn't quite as strong as they

Would have liked it to be

I'm assuming that's why maybe they offered up the plea deal to second degree, but you know 10 to 25 years

Although if you spend 25 years in prison that that is not a joke and no and anyway, but

For what he did to her. Yeah, if he were to get out in 10 years

It'd be rough. I would be rough. That's the part I don't like is that 10 years on the front end. Yeah, it seems

About 20 to 25. Yeah. Yeah

Feel a little bit better about that

But Justin was denied parole in 2020

He didn't attend the hearing but John Carson still drove to Nevada and insisted the board of parole commissioners

Allow him to make a statement and I'm assuming he didn't attend the hearing

Because you know, it really um

Well, I guess what would it have been eight years

It was really like five years before he was sentenced. Yeah, that's a long time

Because he really I mean he dragged it out for a long time so but he probably would have been incarcerated

At the time he was denied parole for eight years

So yeah, but

You know that would have been a travesty if he would have been paroled eight years right

On June 8th, 2023 Justin Burns died by suicide in prison

He was 39 years old his autopsy listed his cause of death as

Esphyxia due to strangulation

You know

It's hard to harbor those things that you do to somebody

When you're living in a cell I have to think about that day in and day out

I think it's hard for some people for some people not all people not all people

But for some it is some people I think eventually it takes its toll or

It's takes its toll for another reason that you can't stand being behind bars

It has nothing to do with that. Yeah, what you did is just that you want your freedom

It also

Wasn't lost on to me that it's a little bit of a strange irony

That they both died the same way

Yeah, yeah, you know, he strangled her

He has fixated her

And then he esphyxiaated himself. Yeah, I don't know if that was

intentional or I mean there

There's not a lot of other ways I would think to do that in prison

I mean, I think that's the most common way that you hear about people doing that in prison

John told the Las Vegas review journal after Justin's death

The rest of my life was going to be spent

Keeping him behind bars. I don't believe in the death poem

But I believe that if you're sick

There's something wired wrong

He's a loose cannon and I sincerely felt he would have murdered again a year after Michelle's death

Her family told the San Gabriel Valley Tribune that learning about her experience made them want to bring more attention

To the problem of domestic violence in

2023 her father reiterated that goal noting that understanding of domestic violence had improved between

2010 and and 2023 okay, and I think that's true. I think it's improved

um

Over the decade. I think so too to you know large degrees right more emphasis has been placed on it you think about

um, police getting called

Out for a domestic violence situation in the 1970s versus the 80s versus the 90s if you looked at it in every decade

You would definitely see that it's handled differently. Yeah, there's much more emphasis now placed on it

You know, they're not just showing up and then hearing a story and leaving

Yeah, like they used to it. It's not gonna happen

If

If somebody's got some proof if somebody's got some marks

One individual is gonna go anywhere. Yeah, well at least one has to be taken even if they both decide they don't want to press charges

Yeah, somebody's going if not both

Yeah, going off so and I have heard

Um on some of the videos I watch that a lot of times or at least a lot of departments

They don't want you to take both. Yeah, they frown upon that because

Someone has to be deemed the aggressor. Yeah, and that's the person that they want taken to jail

Whether that's right or wrong. I don't know, but that's what I've heard

Also, I think there's more resources now than there used to be yeah to deal with there is after math

Yeah

John found out Justin died when he received an alert about a change in his

Inmate status and he called the Nevada Nevada Department of Corrections

He said he cried with grief for Justin's family and with relief for his own family. He said

Now two people are gone that should still be here

My daughter in him if he hadn't done what he did he would still be a lot

Yeah, you know, it's it's sad. You know it is people

murder and

When really none of this had to happen. No, absolutely not there was there was no reason for it to happen

But it shows you this man's compassion. Oh for sure, right

He's shedding a tear for this guy's family who killed his daughter better man than me. Yeah, I mean he's a compassionate person

Yeah

But you know as we wrap up this episode Gibbs

It's a tough one because it deals with

Some very sensitive issues. Yeah, right domestic violence very sensitive issue

Suicide another very sensitive issue

You know, I am drawn to Vicki in this case and in the situation that she was in

You can debate whether she did anything wrong. I don't really think she did

I think she thought she was being a good friend. I think it's exactly what she was. She was a good friend that

Followed her friends wishes and left it at that and like she said never thought that it could ever

Get to this point right and very few people do yeah, and they can't imagine that something like this is gonna happen

But you also

Can really tell that she's struggling if well for sure it eats at her

I'm sure but she needs to understand it's she didn't do anything wrong. Yeah, you know

It's not her fault, but it's not it's not gonna change anything. She's gonna feel that regret and yeah, you know

That's that's just part of this whole thing

Yeah, that's it for our

Episode on Michelle Carson

It's just tragic all the way around it really is no doubt about it

But that's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gabby stay safe and keep your own time ticking