Marilyn McCown

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Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 454

of the True Crime All the Time Unsolved Podcast.

I'm Mike Ferguson.

And with me, as always, as my partner in True Crime,

Mike Gibson, give me how are you?

Yo, yo, yo, what's up?

Okay.

Coming at us with that today, huh?

I see how you are.

I just try to throw you off.

That did throw me off.

That made me laugh, too.

So I very much appreciate it.

Hey, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs.

We had Steve Wilmer jump out of our highest level.

Hey, what's going on, Steve?

Bianca Eikenboom.

Oh, thanks, Bianca.

Angela Gillum.

Well, hi, Angela.

Madison Poston.

What's going on, Poston?

Sarah Wheeling.

Hey, Sarah.

Nikki Weaver.

Ah, Nikki Nouse.

And last but not least, Brett Stewart.

Oh, look at Brett, man.

And then if we go back into the vault,

this week, we selected Shannon Barber.

Yeah, I was just thinking I'm hoping it's Shannon.

Yeah, and it was.

You said that before we even started taping.

I know.

Amazing.

I got that ESP.

With that skull.

What am I thinking right now?

Yeah.

Can't say.

So we have an episode, a new one out on True Crime all the time.

And to me, Gibbs, it's just a fascinating one.

It's on Grady Styles, Jr.

This guy was a carnival performer who called himself lobster boy.

But, you know, he killed a man.

Frankly, he got away with it and then was later

killed himself in a kind of a murder for higher plot by his family.

Yeah, it's got some other twist.

Yeah, I don't want to give all of it away,

but it's a very fascinating case.

And then we have a new episode coming out on Thursday.

And it's on Connie and Larry Van Ooston.

They were abducted from their home by a masked man

and held in a makeshift dungeon inside a basement.

Yeah.

So there's a lot of, you know, like you would say,

twist and turns in this one as well.

Make sure you check it out.

All right, buddy.

Are you ready to get into this episode

of True Crime all the time on Saul?

I am.

We're talking about Marilyn McCown.

Marilyn Nicky McCown disappeared just a few weeks before her wedding,

while doing her laundry on a Sunday afternoon.

Her family doesn't believe she would leave on her own.

She had her fiance and the wedding to look forward to

and a daughter she loved very much.

But over 20 years later, Nicky remains missing.

And I think this is a common thing, right?

That we see in unsolved cases.

Someone disappears, but they're not found.

So there is a question.

Is it possible someone could up and leave?

And it is possible.

There's actually a story that just came out

about a woman, a mother, I think, of three,

who was just recently discovered to be alive.

Wow.

And she said, hey, I just started a new life.

So as much as we say, it's unlikely it does happen.

But, you know, for a family, it's kind of hard to believe.

She's about ready to get married.

She loves her fiance and she has a daughter.

So he makes you think, who, if they just wanted to get up and leave,

who could do that to somebody that they're supposed to love?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, you know, in the case of her daughter, take care of and be responsible for

Marilyn Renee Nicole McCowne, who went by the nickname Nicky,

was born and raised in Richmond, Indiana.

She was the youngest of 10 children.

That's a big family.

It is a big family.

Every time, you know, I hear about one of these big families,

I can't help but think about the grocery bill,

because I know what my grocery bill,

you know, is like now and has been with just two kids.

And some of those aren't even in the house half the time.

I'm just thinking you're really going to have to make things stretch.

Yeah, you do, right?

You got to kind of maybe cut down on the streaming services,

or you got to make big meals and make them stretch out over a couple of days,

or something, because we know how expensive food is right now.

Think about how much laundry that would be.

Everything.

Ten kids.

Toilet paper.

Oh, man.

How much toilet paper are you buying for 10 people?

It's a lot of toilet paper.

Or 10 kids plus, you know, adults.

Nicky's sister, Michelle, told Dateline,

it felt kind of like the Brady Bunch.

Me and Nick are a year and a half apart.

So we're very close.

They spend a lot of time playing with dolls together.

And as teenagers, they talked about boys in school.

What was his favorite doll that you played with?

Stretch Armstrong.

That was your favorite one.

Yeah, except we didn't call it a doll.

It's called an action figure, action hero.

That's right.

As a teenager, Nicky started dating Steven Johnston.

Their daughter, Peyton, was born in 1992.

Peyton said about her mother, she was always smiling.

And laughing, you know, looking for fun things to do,

I always felt loved by her.

That's what you should feel by your mom.

Exactly.

A far cry from kind of what we talked about

in her true crime all the time episode this week,

which was some kids not feeling a lot of love

from their father at least.

Nicky and Steven split up when Peyton was about three.

They had what was described as a tumultuous relationship.

According to Michelle, Steven was abusive.

In a 2018 interview, Steven admitted,

I wasn't good to her.

I wasn't.

I cheated.

I was abusive.

And, you know, I think for a lot of men,

that's a very hard thing to admit.

It's also maybe tough to admit in the wake

of someone going missing,

someone you're connected to in some way.

It's true.

But he's stepping up, right?

He's saying, I wasn't a good guy.

It wasn't good to her.

I cheated on her.

I was abusive towards her.

And that's why we're no longer together.

At the time of her disappearance,

Nicky had worked for the Ohio Department of Rehabilitation and Correction.

She was attending classes at Sinclair Community College,

so she could work her way up through the corrections department.

It's a good community college right here.

It is.

I mean, it's very close to where you and I live.

By 1997, Nicky was dating a man named Bobby Webster.

According to Michelle,

they dated in high school for a while,

and then he moved to California.

And then he came back to the Richmond area.

He was very outgoing.

It seemed like they had a lot of luck.

So we just talked about Sinclair, right?

Being close to us.

Right.

Richmond, Indiana's very close to us,

as well.

It is.

But I think they may also have a,

maybe a satellite campus there too for Sinclair.

Nicky and Bobby were engaged,

and planned to get married on August 18th, 2001.

And it was said that Nicky was happy.

She was excited about the wedding.

Most brides are.

Yeah, I was going to say, let's face it, most brides are.

If not, then why are you getting married?

Yeah, I mean, you might want to stop and check what's going on.

Because my daughter is set to get married later this year.

Now, her relationship maybe is a little different.

They were high school sweethearts.

They've been together for like nine years.

I just assumed that they were always been together.

Yeah, I know it.

And they are married.

Yeah, it was essentially her first boyfriend.

And they've been quasi married for what seems like a very long time.

But they are officially getting married later this year.

Nicky sister Michelle recalled,

she spent so much money on this wedding.

She wanted it to be the perfect wedding.

She wanted her face to be perfect.

Her hair to be perfect.

Her body to be perfect.

And okay, I think we all know that weddings can be very expensive.

You know, even if you go low key on a wedding,

some of that stuff adds up very quickly.

It does.

It really does.

Foods expensive.

Flowers are expensive.

I mean, I just went through it a year and a half ago

with my daughter getting married.

And it is not cheap.

But I think there is a lot of expectations on the bride.

And I think the bride wants to,

like, this is a lot of brides have dreamed about this day.

Well, sure.

You know, so they want to look a certain way.

You know, they want to bodywise appearance.

But they also want the whole event to look a certain way.

Storybook.

Well, the expectation is you're only going to do it one.

Well, yeah, exactly.

That may or may not be the case.

But that's the expectation as it should be.

Nikki went missing on July 22nd, 2001,

just a few weeks before her wedding.

That morning, Nikki and Bobby went to church.

In the afternoon, Bobby met his best man to be fitted for their tuxes.

Nikki took Bobby's car to the laundry man.

She often went with a cousin.

But this time she went along after getting his suit fitted,

Bobby stopped at a jewelry store to pick out a wedding ring

as a surprise for Nikki.

Nikki was seen at the laundry mat at 155 p.m.

Between 155 and 255,

she visited her parents' home where her mother was watching her daughter.

Nikki stormed into her mother's kitchen,

upset over two creepy men who harassed her at the laundry man.

Barbara McCown recalled that she laughed at first.

Nikki was a beautiful woman,

and she thought a man was trying to make a move on her.

However, Nikki seemed very upset by this interaction.

Well, one, she's got a lot going on in her life.

Last thing she probably wants is someone to even mess around with her.

I think the last thing that a lot of women want

is for us guys to mess with them when,

number one, they're already in a relationship

or they're not looking for anything.

She's at a laundry mat trying to do our laundry.

She's not there to be picked up like at a bar.

I thought that's where most meat ques happened.

Is it the laundry mat?

Was that the laundry mat?

Yeah.

My socks got in with her socks

and we had to separate them together.

Exactly, and that's how we met.

For me, this is a key part of this case.

There's a little bit of mystery or actually quite a bit of mystery

around who are these two guys who are messing with her

or harassing her at the laundry mat

to the point where she's very upset when she goes to her mom's house.

Her mom laughs it off at first,

but then I think she realized how upset

Nikki really was over this interaction.

I mean, it had to be impactful for what happened to her

at that laundry mat.

For her to tell her mom that,

look, I'm sure women get hit on all the time.

They talk about how beautiful she was.

Yes.

So, I'm sure she did get hit on

and probably had dealt with that before.

And just brushed it aside.

Yeah.

But in this case, it wasn't so easy for her

just to brush it aside.

Which makes you think there was a little more to it

than kind of a normal flirtation or a normal,

like, pickup attempt.

Right.

If you want to call it that.

I don't know what people call it nowadays

because I've been married for 30 years.

I'm out of the loop.

You're out of the loop.

I'm out of touch, for sure.

But here's the problem, Gibbs.

She has to go back to that laundry mat

because her clothes are still there.

Right.

So, she goes back.

She was last seen there at 255 p.m.

According to the palladium item.

At 3.19 p.m.,

Nikki went to a nearby convenience store called the village pantry

to get change.

And then she went missing sometime after this.

Investigators believe that when Nikki returned

to the laundry mat,

she may have been confronted and possibly abducted

by the two strangers who harassed her.

And that's why I said, I think,

you know, this interaction,

these two strangers are kind of at the heart of the story.

Just unknown mystery guys.

Yeah.

Now, there's no guarantee they had something to do with her

abduction, but I mean,

if you're looking at it from a common sense angle,

she has this interaction.

She's upset by it.

She has to go back to the same place

where she had the interaction.

And then she disappears.

Okay.

Common sense would tell you,

more likely than not,

it may have had something to do with these two individuals.

Yeah, either those individuals are there again

or when she went to the convenience store

to get some change to come back to the laundry mat.

Did someone at the convenience store lock in on her?

In the evening, Michelle went to their sister Tammy's house.

And Tammy asked if she'd seen Nikki.

Bobby told Tammy that Nikki wasn't home

and they were supposed to finish their wedding invitation.

And you mentioned it, right?

She, Nikki, had a lot going on.

You know, when your wedding is in a couple of weeks,

there's usually still a lot of things to do,

a lot of loose ends to tie up.

In this case, you know,

they were still working on wedding invitation.

Tammy told Michelle that Bobby was going to call some of Nikki's friends

and then called them back.

Bobby came over and said he couldn't find Nikki.

Everyone else was panicking,

but Michelle tried to remain calm.

She thought perhaps Nikki was out doing some shopping for the wedding.

And this is the part in a lot of the unsolved cases

that I kind of like to focus in on.

It's that plain in time where people begin to worry, right?

They can't get a hold of someone.

Now, in this case, as in I'm sure a lot of cases,

people react differently.

Some people probably go to worst case scenario very quickly.

Obviously, Michelle is trying to not get there.

She's trying to come up with other plausible theories.

And okay, the wedding's coming up.

Maybe she needed to run somewhere else, do some shopping.

Now, it is 2001.

So, you know, I don't know what the cell phone situation here was.

Today, it's almost to give it that everybody has a cell phone.

Right.

But in 2001, it wasn't.

They were around.

A lot of people had them.

Yeah, a lot of cell phones around.

Yeah, but not everyone had one.

So, we don't know if Nikki had one or not.

They decided to go to their parents house and rich men to see if they knew where Nikki was.

Barbara reported that she saw Nikki earlier in the day when she dropped

painting off so that she could go to the laundromat.

Nikki returned around 2 p.m. and seemed worried.

And that's the conversation that we just talked about, right.

She was upset.

She was also apparently worried, but it was all centered around this

interaction that she had at the laundromat with these two individuals.

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Michelle recalled Barbara telling her that she was pacing back and forth

and said he won't leave me alone.

Barbara asked Nikki who was bothering her.

Nikki said some men at the laundromat were harassing her.

And I thought that was very interesting

because this whole time we've been talking about two guys.

Right, harassing her at this laundromat,

but she makes this very specific statement.

He won't leave me alone.

That is a very singular sentence.

So one of the two guys must have been more persistent

at harassing her.

It may be.

I mean, I think that's a plausible explanation.

Barbara told Nikki the men were probably just flirting with her,

but if she was that worried,

she should get her things and come back to the house.

Nikki left, but never came back.

That evening the family told Bobby to file a police report.

He wanted to wait, but Nikki's dad said if he didn't do it,

he was going to do it himself.

So Bobby reported Nikki missing the next morning.

And I don't know what you make of that.

You know, the the fiance saying, I want to wait a little bit.

Did he maybe thought there's no way

something happened to her?

She'll show up.

She'll be here.

Right.

It could be simply someone not wanting to make a fuss over

something that he thinks is going to be nothing.

Yeah.

But obviously the dad is saying, no,

we're we're we're reporting this right away.

Either you do it or I'm going to do it.

My baby girl, we're going to make sure that it's gets reported.

The family started searching for Nikki right away,

but it took the police a bit longer.

Investigators were under the impression

that Nikki had cold feet about the wedding.

However, her family knew Nikki wouldn't lead

without telling anyone she was happy about the wedding

and wouldn't leave her daughter.

Yeah, I think that's the more important piece.

She wouldn't leave her daughter.

And I'm sure if you're the family,

you know, you got to be wondering if you hear that information.

Okay, where investigators getting it from

that Nikki was having second thoughts about this wedding?

Because obviously they didn't know that.

Right.

They were saying the exact opposite.

So it was just them assuming that she might have

been having second thoughts.

Or did it come from a real source?

Additionally, Nikki had a condition called Graves disease,

an autoimmune disease that affects the thyroid gland

she needed medication which made her family even more worried about her.

Peyton was only nine years old when Nikki went missing.

She learned what happened a few days later when she saw the news

and her grandma was on TV.

Her father explained to her that they weren't sure where her mom was.

And Peyton knew something was really wrong

when her aunt took her to her first day of school.

Something Nikki always did.

So you wonder how a nine-year-old,

what that would do to you at nine years old?

Yeah, I don't know.

I don't know how much does a nine-year-old really comprehend?

Some nine-year-olds are really, really smart.

But she's also probably not getting the full information.

Right.

If you're just saying, hey, we're not sure where your mom is.

You know, that's not a lie,

but it's probably not the full truth.

Peyton recalled the NBC in 2024.

I wasn't old enough to understand.

My daughter is actually going to third grade this year.

So I try to think back like,

how can you explain to a nine-year-old child your mom's missing?

It'd be tough.

It would be tough.

First of all, I mean, you don't want to unnecessarily scare them

because that could be scarring.

Yeah, you don't want to traumatize them.

So I'm sure they didn't come out and say,

oh, your mom's missing.

Maybe something really bad has happened to her.

They're not going to say that to a nine-year-old.

We're just not sure where your mom is.

We're looking for, okay.

That makes it sound maybe not as bad.

According to Detective Mike Wright of the Richmond Police Department,

detectives found the video of Nikki at the Village Pantry,

the convenience store near the laundromat at 3.19 pm.

She often went there to get changed for the machines.

The video showed her walking into the store,

getting change and leaving.

And this is the last known sighting of Nikki.

Officers searched the laundromat but didn't find anything.

The police also looked into the men who allegedly bothered Nikki.

A person across from the Village Pantry reported that Nikki was harassed

outside the store by two Hispanic men and two black men intervened

and gave her a ride back to the laundromat.

The police spoke to the alleged witness but couldn't locate the men who reportedly helped Nikki.

So this kind of adds a different element to it.

This whole time we've been talking about two men harassing her at the laundromat.

And now there's a story that she was harassed by two men outside of the convenience store

and that two other men gave her a ride.

So are the two men that gave her the ride, the two men that were harassing her at the laundromat?

We just don't know.

Yeah, or was it the two men outside the convenience store that harassed her and these two other

guys showed up and we're just helping.

Helping.

Yeah, so there's a little bit of unknown there.

Investigators also searched Nikki and Bobby's apartment but found nothing.

However, people were starting to notice that Bobby was acting strangely.

Instead of postponing the wedding, he canceled the whole thing and demanded a refund

from the reception hall.

He tried to turn his wedding band in for cash but the manager refused

because Nikki paid for the ring and her name was on the receipt.

The argument with the manager almost turned violent and Bobby had to be escorted from the store.

So that adds another twist.

It does because I'm always concerned.

When someone does something that is what you would think of as very final

in the wake of someone going missing.

Right.

So what happens if you cancel the wedding and Nikki shows up tomorrow?

What happens if you turn in your wedding band and Nikki shows up tomorrow?

Those kind of things just don't make sense when you don't have even a shred of finality.

So when you hear something like this and you recall what Nikki said

at her mom's house, she was talking about how these two creeps were bugging her.

Yeah.

But then she makes the one stand alone comment.

He won't leave me alone.

So now makes you wonder, okay, is the he?

Someone completely different.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm with you.

Also, does it go back to Bobby not wanting to file the missing person's report right away?

And Nikki's dad having to step in and say, Hey, but if you don't do it, I'm doing it.

Well, certainly doesn't look good.

It doesn't.

Now, it doesn't mean that he had anything to do with it.

It just doesn't look great, right?

Optics and optics are a big part of some of these cases because let's face it.

Sometimes that's all we have to go on.

Bobby said the reason for his behavior was that he needed money to pay for the search.

He told unsolved mysteries.

I was to the point where it was like, this wedding doesn't matter.

Nikki's well-being is what matters right now.

Well, that would be the case, right?

If you don't have the money, you need the money and you get some things going,

you're right.

The wedding is the least of your concerns.

So that would or could be the explanation to kind of my question, right?

What happens when Nikki comes back tomorrow and you've cancelled the wedding and

basically returned your wedding ring?

Well, the answer could be, Hey, I needed that money because we were all worried about you.

We were looking for you.

Yeah.

If that's the case, and that's going to go pretty far with her.

It was, right?

First thing you said, well, you know, yeah, I just I thought you were having cold feet.

I wanted my money back.

Yeah, that's not going to fly.

But Bobby was also asking about Nikki student loan money,

according to NBC.

And again, could you make similar arguments there?

If there's student loan money lying around, could it be used to help in the search?

Or is he just trying to get his hands on money?

Okay.

See the way depending on how you look at it.

I don't think there's any doubt that Bobby was considered a person of interest, right?

But Nikki's family was divided in their opinions of Bobby.

Her sister, Michelle, told Dateline, I thought it was a relationship that was meant to happen.

And a lot of people felt that way.

But after her disappearance, there were a lot of red flags.

Some people witnessed him getting physical with her.

Michelle never witnessed this herself.

But she did see Bobby throw things.

Michelle asked Bobby directly.

If he was involved, he said, I know your family thinks I have something to do with it.

I had nothing to do with it.

I loved your sister.

I wanted to marry her.

I find it interesting that everybody was good with you in this relationship

until this type of event happens.

And then you start hearing some of these negative things.

Yeah.

And some things start to kind of come out.

You know, was he physical with her?

Somebody saw it.

But they didn't want to make a big deal about it.

Because okay, they didn't know if it was a one-time thing.

They didn't know how big of a deal it was.

But obviously in the wake of someone going missing,

man, you're going to make more out of certain things.

Oh, yeah.

On July 25th, Bobby was called in for an interview.

He provided a timeline of his day.

He went to get a suit, went to his grandmother's house, and went home.

In the interview recording, he called their wedding season an exciting time

and said he was confused about Nicky's disappearance.

Bobby was asked to take a polygraph.

He initially refused, but later agreed.

One of the questions he was asked was, did you have anything to do

with the disappearance of Nicky McCown?

Bobby said no, but the results indicated deception.

Bobby denied that he failed the test and said neither he nor his lawyer saw the results.

And again, we've talked ad nauseam about polygraph tests.

What does it mean when something is inconclusive?

What does it mean when they say shows deception?

Do they have to be truthful?

Or could they be saying that to try to make him crack?

I don't know the legality of that.

I know please can lie to you.

Of course they can.

So could they have told him that he showed deception when he really didn't?

I don't know.

It helps to get something more out of them.

Yes, but like you said, we've talked about it a lot.

I, and I think you feel the same way.

We don't put a lot behind polygraph tests.

I don't because the courts don't.

And I think it's been proven that, you know, people can beat them.

They can also be so nervous that they didn't have anything to do with anything,

but they failed, you know?

So I just don't know that it's an exact science in any way.

On August 1st, 2001, family and friends marched to the Richmond Municipal Building

to pray for Nikki's safe return.

By this time, investigators suspected foul play.

But with nobody and no motive, they really had nothing to go on.

They were also still searching for the missing vehicle.

And we said it, right?

Nikki was driving Bobby's car that day.

It was a black GMC Jimmy.

Pretty popular vehicle.

Back in the day, yeah.

Was the Jimmy the equivalent of the Chevy Blazer, I think?

Yeah.

Now they now do make a new Blazer, which is different.

I don't think they make the Jimmy anymore.

I think they made that Jimmy and actually,

Dayton Moreno Hyle at the truck playing.

Trivia tidbits from Gibby.

I know.

That should be a new segment in the show.

Yeah.

Months later on November 3rd, 2001,

the missing vehicle was found parked at the

meadow of Katalpa apartment complex in Dayton,

45 minutes east of Nikki's home in Indiana.

And I bet that the meadow is of Katalpa.

I'm sure you have.

Yeah.

It's a big condo slash apartment sprowling apartment complex.

So Bobby's car kind of becomes central as well, right?

But what do you make of it?

It's his car, but she was driving it.

Yeah.

So does that mean that whoever was involved in her disappearance,

drove the car over here near where we live and dropped it off at these apartments?

Or did she drive over here?

And then something happened after that.

That's a good point, right?

I mean, maybe she left Richmond fine.

If whatever reason drove to Dayton.

And like you said, something happened at that point.

Well, because Nikki was nowhere to be found.

She wasn't found with the car.

And I think these cases are so tough to go on because,

you know, like we said, right?

Nobody, no motive.

As far as we know, there's been no mention of video.

Surveillance video.

Besides at the convenience store.

Yeah, but like no video of what actually happened to her,

the video of someone taking her or anything like that.

We just know what was it.

Somewhere around 330 was last time she was seen on that video.

Yeah.

When they found the car, the door lock was punched out.

And the ignition had been tampered with.

And the stereo was missing.

But there were no obvious signs of violence.

So it's entirely possible.

Someone stole the car parts after it was parked and abandoned.

It's also possible someone stole the car in Richmond.

That's true.

And drove it to Dayton and then stole the car parts.

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One important clue was left behind.

Nicky's clothes were neatly folded inside the car

as if she just left the laundry man.

It didn't appear as though anyone rifled through the items.

Nobody wanted the clothes.

They just wanted to break into the car and still some parts.

But if she was going to run away, what do you think she'd take her clothes with her?

And the car?

Well, yeah.

Both?

Yeah.

But what do the folded clothes mean?

Do they mean that she finished her laundry or that at some point in the laundry process,

she took some clothes out, folded?

Again, I don't know the answer.

Yeah, we don't.

There's just a lot of unknowns here.

The interesting part was that the car had been seen in the parking lot

for at least two weeks prior to it being found.

But it was possibly there for months and residents just didn't notice it.

Deputies checked the car early on the third because the door was a jar.

A registration check flagged it as being sought in a criminal investigation.

Another important piece of information was the fact that Nicky's ex,

Steven Johnston, lived at the apartment complex where the car was found.

And if that's not suspicious, I don't know what it is.

It's really suspicious.

But for me, that kind of goes back to, you know, whether Nicky drove the GMC to Dayton or somebody

drove it other than her. If she drove it, is it possible that she was going to meet up with her ex?

So maybe she wanted to go have a, what, one more fling with the ex?

Or just to talk to him, yeah, didn't have to be a fling.

Could it have been part of the, the doubts or cold feed as investigators called it?

We don't, we don't know.

But, you know, Peyton was with her grandma on the day Nicky went missing.

So as far as her daughter was concerned, there was no reason for Nicky to be at his apartment.

Steven was questioned, but he passed the polygraph.

He also had a very strong alibi.

He was never even a formal person of interest.

And I think that tells you everything you need to know, yeah, right there.

Peyton never thought her father was involved.

She told Dateline, I'm sure it obviously crossed my aunts and my uncles and even my grandmother's

mom. But I think everybody knew deep down.

There's no way Steven did it.

Nicky's family hoped the discovery of the car would lead to more answers.

But now investigators were asking themselves, if Nicky was abducted from the laundry mat,

why were her clothes neatly folded in the back seat and who drove her car to date?

And these questions have never been answered.

These are questions that, you know, we have been asking as well.

Because obviously, if you can get to those answers, well, you might be able to figure some

stuff out. Right, right. Just so random though, right, for the car to end up

at the complex were her ex-lives.

Yeah, it is. Now you can go off on a bunch of different tangents.

Is it someone maybe who lived in the apartment complex who had seen her before?

Maybe they knew Steven. Maybe they actually even knew her through Steven.

They got fixated on her. They started harassing her enrichment. I don't know. Maybe that's the

he that she mentioned. Yeah. Or could it be someone knew that's where the ex lived and thought,

you know what, to shift attention off me or us, let's park the car down here.

Yep. And that's going to make the police wonder, okay, maybe it's the ex.

Yeah, I get that what that line of thinking as well.

Police later discovered that Nicky called a co-worker who lived about a mile from where her

SUV was found in Dayton. They talked about beauty products and the friend told Nicky she could

get what she was looking for in Dayton. So police began to wonder if something happened to Nicky

and Richmond, Indiana, Dayton, Ohio or somewhere in between. Her SUV might have been abandoned in

Ohio to distract attention from the Richmond area. That's kind of the theory that you were talking

about. But I want to go back to this conversation with the co-worker about these beauty products

and Nicky being told that she could find them in Dayton. Did she on the kind of spur of the moment

after doing what she had to do at the laundromat decide, hey, I'm going to drive over and try to

get these. Yeah. Just run down the Dayton, find the things I need and come on back.

But this theory that you mentioned of the SUV being left in Dayton, it led investigators back to

Bobby because let's face it, Bobby would have known about the ex. He probably would have known

where the guy lived. Nicky's sister Tammy had trouble believing Bobby was involved.

Nicky's mother wasn't so sure, but she decided to keep Bobby close because of the saying,

keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Okay. It's a good concept to have if you can

actually pull it off. Yeah. I think it comes from Sunsu's Art of War if I'm not mistaken. I

could be totally wrong about that. Is that why you keep me close? Not that close, but that came

off a little creepy, but I know what you're saying. There was another person the police were looking at

according to Michelle, a coworker of Nicky's has been a person of interest since the beginning.

His name was Tommy Swint. He was a CEO at a prison where Nicky also worked. Their friendship

eventually grew concerning. Michelle recalled, I remember one time I was on my lunch break and I

said, let's go over to Nicky's house. As I'm approaching the door, I hear someone screaming.

She found Nicky sitting on a chair with her foot pressed on Tommy's chest. She said,

help. He's trying to rape me. Wow. I mean, that would be a very scary situation to walk into.

And obviously very scary for Nicky. Michelle said, Tommy tried to play it off and began chasing

both of them, laughing like he was just joking. Michelle assumed he was and Nicky told her don't

worry about it. Peyton also recalled that Tommy gave her the Hebe Gebes. She said he was someone

who I would avoid at all costs if I ever saw him. Oh, that's saying a lot though. Yeah. I mean,

people don't use that term as much as they used to. Now I'm wondering maybe that's what she was

trying to tell her mom. He won't leave me alone. Maybe Tommy was the heat. Yeah. Tommy remained on

police radar because he didn't have a concrete alibi. And that's never good. There were also

complaints of sexual harassment against him at work. Tommy worked as an officer for the Trotwood,

Ohio Police Department for less than two months. He was forced to resign when it was revealed. He

was a person of interest in Nicky's disappearance. So just for a little reference, these meadows of

Katalpa are at the border of the Trotwood limits. So if he was in Trotwood, he would easily know

where the metal's a tap was. Yeah, very close. Yeah. Right. Tommy eventually moved to Phoenix City,

Alabama, where he worked as a security guard. On February 3rd, 2010, Tommy was indicted for the

1991 murder of 33 year old Tina Marie Ivory who was killed in Dayton. He killed himself as officers

attempted to arrest him at his home in Phoenix, Alabama. A tree trimming crew found Tina Ivory's

partially nude body in a pile of trash on Dayton Liberty Road near Calumette Lane on December 17th,

1991. Tina had been beaten and strangled before her body was dumped. She was wrapped in two semi-transparent

trash packs and a quilt. She was last seen alive on the evening of December 14th, 1991.

Cold case investigators working on a series of 16 unsolved sex worker homicides in the late 80s

and early 90s decided to interview Tommy in the fall of 2009. He was asked for his finger

prints in DNA, which were matched to Tina's case. A couple of hours after he was indicted,

the Alabama Bureau of Investigation attempted to arrest him at his apartment. Investigators

descended on his home to serve a warrant. They heard gunshots and then found Tommy's body inside.

It was reported that investigators had planned to question Tommy about several unsolved cases.

Two other young black women were beaten to death in Dayton within a few days in December 1991.

On December 14th, 21-year-old Carletta Roberts was found at the rear of 320 Canard Avenue.

Eight hours later, 26-year-old Sonja Snowden was found next to 53-63 West Third Street.

Both had been beaten to death. And then just three days later, Tina Ivory was found.

So, you know, for me, gives kind of hard not to make a connection here.

Yeah, this guy is really standing out.

Yeah, I mean, obviously he was a very violent individual. We know that he killed at least one woman.

Then you have two other women beaten to death in a very, you know, similar kind of span of time.

Does it make the scene that Michelle walked in on seem a little more sinister than maybe

Nikki was willing to admit it was?

I 100% believe that. But I mean, we have a guy that does bad things. We know that he can dispose

of a body. That's what he did with his one victim.

I also found it interesting that the Trotwood Police Department let him go as soon as they found

out that he was a quote, person of interest. I'm sure they were able to get more information

about what police thought of this guy than the public. So that kind of leads me to believe that

there were really strong feelings about this guy as possibly being responsible for whatever

happened to Nikki. And it's kind of scary that he was in a position of power when he was a police

officer. Yeah, because how could he have misused that power and did he? That you're right. That's

a very scary thought. So we talked about three murders, right, in Dayton, one of which they know

this guy committed. Yeah. At the time, authorities looked into the possibility that one killer was

behind all three murders. But the only connection between the victims was their race and a history

of drug use. Carlet is family described to her as someone who was once ambitious and energetic.

She was an honor role student, but her grades fell in middle school. She started missing school

after her brother Lewis was shot and killed in Dayton in November, 1986. She dropped out her junior

year of high school. Then Carlotta's mother was diagnosed with cancer. These family problems

wore on Carlotta. She started smoking and drinking and then eventually started smoking crack.

On the day of her disappearance, she was helping her grandmother, Fanny, clean and she wanted to

put the Christmas tree up. She left and told her grandma she would be right back, but she never

returned. Detective Mike Wright stressed that Steven Johnston and Bobby Webster are not persons

of interest. However, Tommy Swent is still a person of interest and Nicky's disappearance.

I'm sure he's got to be the primary person on that list. Yeah. I mean, how could he not be, right?

Just based on all of the things that we've touched on, we know he's capable of it because

he killed a woman. Yeah. Peyton told Dateline, she always believed in Bobby's innocence and they

maintained a close relationship until he passed away in 2021. Bobby explained her why he did

things the way he did. Peyton moved in with her grandmother, Barbara, but also kept a close

relationship with her father. She never believed he was involved, but said, my mom is a very sensitive

subject for him because he also blames himself. He feels like if he treated my mom better in their

relationship, that maybe she would still be here. And there's that guilt factor that we always

talk about. Sure. The police have already come out and said he didn't have anything to do,

right? With Nicky's disappearance, but he feels guilty because he came out and said he didn't

treat her great. He cheated on her. And if he hadn't, he feels as though maybe she would still

be here today. Peyton said about Tommy Swentt, I'm very much innocent until proving guilty.

I know all signs point to Tommy, but he's also got a daughter of his own. I also believe that someone

out there knows something. I don't believe Tommy was able to keep all those secrets to himself.

Nicky sister Michelle told Dateline that we may never know if Tommy did anything to Nicky,

she expressed her hope that new technology could get answers for the family. Nicky's mother,

Barbara McCown died of cancer in July, 2020. Peyton said that her grandmother worked hard to keep

Nicky's story going and that she has since taken on that role. Grandma didn't stop. Grandma

fought hard for a very long time. We haven't stopped looking for her and we will continue looking

for her. We all love her and love her and just want her back to us. Michelle McCown lost her,

wanted to help families in similar situations, so she joined the Doc Ellis Foundation. A non-profit

focused on missing persons of color. Michelle is the director and outreach coordinator. She said

it's a rewarding job that has helped her healing journey and you do see that a lot, right? People

who go through traumatic events such as losing a loved one or in this case, a loved one disappearing,

they often kind of dive into some of these like nonprofit type organizations to help other

families. Yeah, I think that's great. It is great. And she even says it has helped her healing.

Detective Mike Wright took over Nicky's case in 2022. He told Dateline that his department has

conducted new searches of wooded areas and Richmond. The office also has Tommy's old computer.

It's possible deleted files could be recovered with advancements and technology. You never know.

Nicky is five foot three and weighed 115 pounds at the time of her disappearance.

She was last seen wearing a dark swimsuit top, biker shorts and sandals. She would be 51 years old

today. Anyone with information about Nicky's case is asked to call the Richmond police department

at 765-983-7247. So Gibbs as we wrap this case up, you know, obviously there were a lot of

things that kind of hit close to home for us. A lot of ties to the Dayton area where you and I both

live. I can't help but think about you know, Bobby and Stephen. I think Stephen was cleared very,

very quickly. Bobby, maybe not so quick. I mean, there were some people in Nicky's family that

thought maybe possibly he had something to do with it. I don't think there's any doubt that

there was a cloud of suspicion that hung over him for some time. We said it though, right?

The current detective has come out and said that it wasn't him and it wasn't Stephen.

Yeah, and I agree with everything you said. I mean, we know that Nicky's mom kept Bobby close to her

because she kind of felt like maybe Bobby might have had something to do with it. But at the end

of the day, I mean, he talked to Peyton, told her why he did what he did. And it seems like she

felt comfortable with that. And like you said, the current detective says he's not a person of

interest. So for me, you know, that leaves either Tommy Swent who we know is a terrible guy.

Sure. He killed at least one woman here in Dayton. It wouldn't surprise me if he was involved in

the other two deaths as well. If not more. And he had a connection with her. He did. He did. Now,

it's either him or it's somebody that is not on the radar at all, right? A complete stranger.

But if you go by the percentages, it's somebody known to the victim, right? So you have Tommy,

as you said, with a connection to Nicky and having what we know is a very violent past,

he was a violent individual. Heck, Michelle walked in on him trying to rape Nicky. Nicky said

as much, according to Michelle. Now, she also said, don't worry about it. So I don't know what that

means. But obviously that situation, the way it was unfolding, wasn't good. So dollars to

donuts, if I got to put money on it, you know, Tommy, Tommy's my man. Yeah. Yeah. He's definitely

and I can say that because, you know, he's not alive. So no, but no guarantee, but he doesn't look

good. That's for sure. Like you said, if you had a, if you had to put money down on it, that's where

I'd put my money. Yep. So I feel for Peyton. We don't know what happened to her mom. She doesn't

have her grandma around anymore. And I don't know if wherever really know what happened to

Peyton's mom. We may never know what happened to Nicky, but it could be a situation where some of

this new technology does tie someone to her. Yeah. I think that's tough when you don't have a body

because we don't know of any evidence or DNA that was pulled from the car. We didn't talk about

anything like that. So I don't know if they have it. Right. But, you know, maybe, maybe someday.

But that's it for our episode on Nicky McCown. We've got a voicemail. You want to check that out?

This year. Hey, Mike, thank you. This is Elle from Delaware again, called a few weeks ago. But

just wanted to thank you guys again for keeping me company on this Blizzard e-day here in Delaware.

Trying to make it home for being out, do it into the car this morning. And in the process,

help other people get groceries and have any of myself. So hoping that I can find some of my

way home. But thank you guys for keeping me company and keeping me calm. We'll drive it in this

storm. And I hope you guys stay safe, or whatever might hit you up your way. I already have a great

week and keep your own time ticking. Well, thanks for leaving a voicemail. You know, Gibbs, I thought

we got a lot of snow. We got about 16 inches. They got hammered up there like 30 man, 30 plus maybe.

I would not enjoy that. No, not at all. So hopefully, you know, everybody is safe. And it doesn't

really matter where you live here in the US. There is something, whether it's wildfires in California,

earthquakes, you know, down south in Florida, you've got hurricanes to deal with. We have floods.

We have tornadoes and blizzards. And there's, you know, when you say, keep your head on a swivel,

keep your own time ticking. That's not just about someone wanting to do you harm. You know, you

got to watch out for mother nature as well. It's everything. It's everything. Well, at least we have

an extra episode out of of T cat. Yeah. Thursday and Sunday now on T cat. So a little bit more to

help keep you company. All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of True Crime all the time

unsolved. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

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