Jon Davey: Why Canada's Biggest Projects Can't Get Built Without Indigenous Capital

0:00Welcome to Drumbeaks. The MUST Listen to Podcasts, which explains why indigenous partnerships are the key to securing success while it comes in natural resource and infrastructure investment in Canada. I'm Mark McNackam, my co-host Robert Brant and are joined today by Jonathan Davy, Managing Director of Indigenous and Government Advisory at Scotiabake. In part one of our conversation with John, we heard how a decade inside Canada's legal system shaped his understanding of indigenous finance. White Scotiabake made a mutual investment in building their indigenous advisory practice from scratch, and what the creation of cedar leaf capital signals about where Canada's capital markets are heading. In the second part, we get into details that really matter most for institutional investors evaluating opportunities in Canada. John breaks down section 89 of the Indian Act, the single biggest barrier to capital access for indigenous communities, and explains some of the novel structures practitioners use to work around it. We then move into the developments

1:04that are generally changing the calculus for international investors. Canada's $10 billion in indigenous loan guarantee corporation. Fourth coming amendments to the First Nations Fiscal Management Act, and what the Build Canada means for project timelines and indigenous equity participation. If you haven't listened to part one yet, we'd encourage you to start there, but if you're coming straight to the numbers and the policy, this is the place to be. Maybe, John, we could talk a little bit about the Indian Act and some of the specifics, because you are an expert, and you've mentioned some of the issues. We had Tracy Smith recently from Keyway, when capital, and she set up that organization to try to fill a gap, financing gap, particularly on reserve, and so maybe explain some of the very basics about what makes it

2:06difficult for banks and other lenders to finance on reserve in particular. Sure, and especially, Rob, if you're a foreign investor looking to work with indigenous groups or you're looking at major projects and major project development in Canada, and you don't know where to start, that's a perspective on taking this question from, I'd say Section 89 of the Indian Act is the best place to start, because it's the worst place. Section 89 says you can't use assets that are don't sell down reserve as collateral, so it undermines this ability to have equity in fixtures and chattels, and any assets that's on the sell down reserve if you're a first nation's person, business, or government. And so, just if why is it stopped there and not say anything else, you think, well, that's so prohibitive of accessing capital, why would ever want to work with a first nation knowing that they have to operate under that constraint? Yeah, when you think about

3:06what kind of a constraint that is, that is, you know, being able to leverage assets in your asset base, that is sort of fundamental to being able to grow and participate in any economy. Exactly, and even, you mentioned Tracy being on the podcast before, I mean, housing is worth, I think most, like you can see it where if you can't have a traditional mortgage on reserve, you know, how is it that you build equity on an individual basis, right? But I would say that, you know, if you're looking at that, just understand that when we talk about restrictions, first of all, in that case, we're just talking about first nations, we're not talking about me to your anyway. But it's also, okay, if you can access capital, you know, what does that actually meet? How does this, how do you work around it or work through it? So, you know, we talked about why I enjoy working at Scotia, thanks so much. They're very supportive when I set up the first nation leasehold financing program. So, leveraging leasehold interests under the Indian Act,

4:08First Nationally Management Act and Self-Government Agreements. So, essentially to say that, hey, if Section 89 prevents you from taking an interest, a collateralized interest in a fixture, like a home or, you know, a commercial building, the leasehold interest may allow you to take an interest in the lease itself, the instrument that allows for use and access. And so, these are some of the innovations that we're looking at, and we've been executing for a number of years now to say that just because you've seen impediment, like Section 89, doesn't mean that there are ways that we can work around it. And Rob, some of the work that you've done, and your firm has done, to create investment vehicles that would create separation from, you know, a First Nation government to, you know, a government business enterprise that might be owned by the nation, but you're creating these models of general partnerships and limited partnerships that then create on-source revenue, was really powerful about that, that people wouldn't realize that first plush if they're new to working with Indigenous groups to look into space.

5:11Is the tax optimization that's allowed under the legislation like the Indian Act, to allow those entities to actually create a greater benefit and a greater yield on the return, because they are not subject to the same tax laws as a non-Indigenous business. And so, you know, it's one of these expansive questions, Rob, as you and Mark can appreciate, it's kind of like, what is math, and you try to start to explain it? Well, this is, when we talk about restrictions, I think the vast majority of the time it reverts back to Section 89 and not being able to have a collateralized value of an asset on reserve, and in the depreciation of that asset over time. So, from the financial point of view, it makes it very detrimental. But what's great, and it doesn't act as a complete counterbalance, but it is something to consider, is just how do you set up the different investment structures, whether it's, you know, for the purpose of an SPV, or it's just your economic development corporation in the form of a limited partnership. Why is it that those structures exist? How are they optimized? How do they reduce reliance on

6:14federal oversight? How is it that you can have greater control over an entity or over a business enterprise as a first nation or a first nation government business enterprise where you're actually able to invest in a different way that's more tax-optimized and not subject to the same laws and regulations that are the income tax act or Indian act that a non-indigenous group would be subject to. So, I would say that if you're new to this and you're looking at the Indian act, just know that there's a big restriction that there is or certainly others. But there's ways, like I was saying before, when it comes to the Indian act, there's places of vulnerability and there's places of exploitation where you can actually exploit, I use in a positive way, like you can actually work under the Indian act in a way that would be beneficial to you, that I would certainly encourage anybody that's interested in knowing to reach out to us to talk about because that's kind of where we operate. So, I also think if you look at financial markets worldwide, how have they grown so dramatically

7:16over the past half-century? It's because this focus on innovation and where there's a will the way and how do you make it work? And I think you agree with that. That's basically what you're saying, the opportunity for innovation to unleash these assets, which there's still first mover advantages because we're still figuring out how best to access that and present those opportunities and find solutions that give this underrepresented communities, the first nations, opportunities to succeed. And that's where some of the growth is coming from. Is that sure? Mark, there's definitely innovation and I think that's going to continue. I think what's new that's become a greater focal point is the concessionary capital that's coming into the market for indigenous groups, as well as loan guarantees that will just lower risk weights on assets, on loans. And so, to explain a little bit about what you mean by concessionary capital. Sure. Sure. So, it's really, it's low cost of funds for indigenous parties,

8:20particularly focus on indigenous parties making an equity investment. And so, you know, there's a couple of sources, but the biggest one is the First Nation Finance Authority. We're having this conversation now in March of 2026. We're going to see the First Nation Financial Management Act amended very soon to allow for the First Nation Finance Authority to provide concessionary capital to indigenous special purpose vehicles. So, right now they can only lend to indigenous groups. And so, what does that all mean if this is new information? Really what it nets out to is you have lower cost of capital for indigenous groups that are looking to, you know, make an equity investment in some of these bigger projects. Coupled with that, you have loan guarantee programs federally. There's a $10 billion loan guarantee program. And then there's two programs that are worth $3 billion, one in Alberta and another in Ontario, and in BC Saskatchewan and Manitoba are all standing up or have stood up similar programs

9:26of a bit smaller scale. And essentially, when we talk about loan guarantees, we're talking about contingent liability that's dedicated to just backstopping loans. So, if you're a financial institution like Scotiabank, you know, the risk weights on the assets that you'd be deploying are just brought to zero. They're brought down so the cost of capital will become lower again. And so, if you're looking at investments that are happening, there's certainly a great incentive for indigenous parties to come together, especially after this amendment to the First Nation Fiscal Management Act for the purpose of making an equity investment. So, when you do that, you get lower cost of funds or you can get, I should say, you want to necessarily get, but you can't get lower cost of capital that can then be put towards an equity purchase or an asset purchase. And where that becomes very appealing for anybody that's outside the community is, you can only imagine what it's like if you were to, you know, join venture with that indigenous special purpose vehicle or looked at an indigenous partner. This is where I think a lot of people

10:26are focused, Mark. The innovation that we're talking about before on the Indian Act will continue to happen. And that's more liability and indemnity based. And so, I like that because Rob saying, you know, you came from law and that's what you looked at. So, I still gravitate to that naturally, because I still think there's more that we can get out of the Indian Act in terms of what we can do in terms of innovation for financial products and services. But where the puck's going right now is lower cost of funds for indigenous parties looking to invest. And so, if you're hearing that and you're outside of the country or you're just a non-indigenous entity, you know, it really makes a lot of sense for you to get a sense of how it is that you may want to partner with indigenous groups because there's an incentive beyond the financial. You know, there's a reason why every project of national interests, our federal government is saying we need indigenous participation. And a big part of that is because we need the business acumen, we need the stewardship, we need the extracurial knowledge that indigenous parties bring towards these transactions

11:30in their operation. And so, when you see that and then you're incentivized by the lower cost of funds and you're understanding that this is, you know, contextually good for the country because historically has not been a good relationship between indigenous groups and, you know, the Crown. These are all reasons why there should be a greater focus on, okay? How do we make sure that we structure these transactions in such a way that's respectful, that's based on partnership and trust? But that are very sound in terms of their structuring for the financing. Like, how is it that we take it back to first principles of the Indian Act and understand that we're doing this in such a way? We're creating a good loan that securitized, as opposed to just saying, we want to rely on, you know, loan guarantee or we want to rely exclusively on concessionary capital. So, there's moving parts. Like, I mean, there's a lot of moving parts, but the Canada Infrastructure Bank also has capital that they can deploy, which we represent lower cost of funds and what you get if you're just to take it to market. And so, making sure that we look at all those avenues

12:33to get the best possible transactions for indigenous parties and their partners has become a real focal point in the last few years. Very insightful. I'd like to come back to one point because for our audience over here in the UK and other places around the world, you talked, we're talking about we're in Canada in Utampa and the indigenous people in the Crown. And for a lot of people, except the indigenous people, the Crown and Canada is something almost a virtual, well, a virtual monarchy. And in the UK, you rarely hear people talk about the Crown because they've, it's not in the day-to-day business. Of course, the authority comes from there and constitutional monarchy, et cetera, et cetera. But also in this country, Canada, you're talking about indigenous Crown. Can you give just a little background because reinforcing this story, I think, helps our audience understand the foundation and why we are where we are today? Sure, Mark. So, I mean, it

13:34goes back to our constitution here in Canada. So, under Section 91-24, the constitution, I won't use the legal terms, but Aboriginal people, as it's described, so First Nation, 18, in any way, are considered the responsibility of the federal state here in Canada. And so, what that means is the representatives of the Crown who are responsible for having past legislation like the Indian Act and other associate legislation and decided a lot of the jurisprudence sets impactful are the Crown's representatives. And so, we're talking about the federal government predominantly, not the monarchy in its, you know, totality, but we're talking about really the federal responsibility within Canada to look at indigenous parties and provide parameters both legal and otherwise. So, there's the relationship there that's inherent. I mean, the best example I can give to our audience for anybody that wouldn't be an issue is that

14:35healthcare in Canada is a provincial responsibility. The healthcare for the indigenous populations is federal. And so, it's again, it's this division of powers where you've got, you know, the federal government being responsible for things that would otherwise be a provincial responsibility here. And so, I mean, in some ways, you could take it down to even the municipal level, but, First Nations, Métis, Inuit, constitutionally protected groups within the constitution of Canada, but are treated differently than other populations within the country. So, when we say the Crown, I mean, without getting too expansive, Mark, I mean, it's really the federal government here in Canada in their relationship with indigenous groups and how that's evolving. I'm not going to say whether I think it's getting better. I think more efforts are being made. And I think that's important. And I think that there's a greater awareness and desire to have a better relationship between

15:39indigenous populations in the Crown or the federal government here in Canada. That's what I choose to believe. And that's why I try to, like I said, setting a good example whether it's for my kids or whether it's for others, I recognize that if I honor the people that came before me, there are so many battles that were fought with the federal government over rights, over responsibilities, over access and control. That I'm in a very privileged position right now to say, well, we can build on those battles that have been fought in one by the indigenous populations so that we can have new opportunities like the ones that we're talking about today between indigenous populations and not just the Crown. But, you know, really, the wider global economy in terms of who wants the partner and work with indigenous peoples. Yes, and just, again, for our audience, Canada only acquired its constitution in the 80s. And before that, everything in theory was still under the perfect council over here. So that was a game changer. And that's when the stimuli for all these changes that we've experienced in our lifetimes because it was in the constitution.

16:43Whole different ballgame because it just didn't work before. Yeah, Mark, and just to take it to another place too, like we can talk about the constitution, constitution, protective rights, intersection 35 of the constitution for Aboriginal people. Aboriginal is the term used in the constitution. That's why I keep saying it. But the truth is that we need to look, a lot of people still want to talk about different standards, whether it be in the constitution protected by the constitution, that has to be that has to be evident. There's a bigger focus now on the duty to consult and free prior and form consent, which will soon become I would say more defined within Canadian law, more so than it already is. That has to happen and that is happening. I think with the opportunities that we're talking about though, when we talk about the greater economic participation of Indigenous parties in Canada, it's by a lot of members of the Indigenous population here that recognize, hey, we've got a great opportunity, not just from an economic standpoint, but a great opportunity to create a new relationship. And so that's,

17:47I mean, I'm very optimistic about this. I'm taking a very optimistic tone of point of view, but I look at more as what can we build together, right? And what is it that we're not going to forget our past, we're not going to forget the history, but how can we create a new relationship so that future generations can know that, you know what, we can change what's happened in the past, such that it doesn't repeat itself. And that's really the approach I try to take. It's one of the reasons where I didn't necessarily think to work for the Crown initially until I had a great conversation with a law professor at Oz Good Hall, professor named Shinemi who said, in order to be a good lawyer, you have to understand all perspectives. And if you just look at the federal government as being oppressive towards Indigenous peoples, you'll never understand how things like the Indian Act or how the, you know, the judiciary is going to decide cases. It's beneficial for you to understand that process, understand the perspective of the federal government. So I mean, I take that into account. It is something I try to apply when we're talking

18:49about the transactions that we'd be looking at recently. But it's also, you know, it's a history to remember. And it's certainly something that you can't ignore when it comes to the constitution and the historic relationship between the two groups. John, you mentioned you're excited to positive about current developments, at least. We get asked sometimes particularly from investors outside of Canada what has changed or has Canada really changed over the last 10, 15 years. They may have got excited about LNG, for example, 15 years ago in projects that were proposed, but never, never got off the ground. So how would you answer that kind of question? It was a what projects to get excited about, Rob? No, but what has Canada changed? Is it really different? You know, why should we look at Canada again differently? It's a great question. Like I, beyond what we've just talked about in terms of this desire to have

19:57a greater or better relationship and improve relationship with indigenous parties, you can look at Bill C5 and the Bill Canada Act and what the federal government's done. Like there is this desire to invest in the country, to unite the country through development. At least that's one interpretation of it. So I would say what's changed? I mean, not that comes to mind very quickly, Rob. I'm also seeing, you know, how do we build out our infrastructure within Canada in such a way that makes us stronger as a country, makes us more efficient as a country, given how fast we are, but in this current climate also allows us to diversify our trade partners. And so, you know, I go back to something Mark said right at the start is that in order to do that, if you're going to invest in new energy corridors in Canada, if you're going to create new infrastructure in Canada that didn't exist prior, if you're going to have greater defense spending, which has been a big focal point, if you're literally going to create an act called Bill Canada, you need indigenous participation.

21:00And so what's changed here is the recognition that that's a truth. You have to have indigenous participation is not a threat. It's an opportunity. The opportunity is all the things that we've talked about before. You get greater business acumen coming from the indigenous community because it is so restrictive to run a business within a first nation. It's so difficult. It's difficult to run any business. Try doing it with the restrictions that we've talked about as they apply to the indirect. When you see that and you see how the federal government is saying, we're not just saying we want greater indigenous participation, we're actually inducing it in some in some respects because we're going to amend legislation to allow for a concessionary capital to flow into these investment vehicles that are indigenous. We're going to see the Canada's just Long Guaranteed Corporation, which is doing a great job, stood up and have 10 billion and contingent liabilities that they can use to backstop loans that are going to help build this country. And so when that starts to happen, I would say that's a massive sea change. It's not just this administration. I

22:02think it's really concentrated in this federal administration, but I would say that that's a big change that we've seen over a relatively short period of time. The major project's office is another example of that. You've got an office that's dedicated to these projects of national interests. And so what's changing here is that you have a designation program that's saying, listen, if you're concerned about licensing and permitting whether you're a foreign entity or you're domestic, you have to know that we're creating a permit window. This is going to happen faster. We're behind this. We are designing projects for this purpose to get things built faster. We're putting capital into market to make sure that they're capitalized enough to be commissioned and perform their functioning in generating revenue. So I would say that's kind of the real excitement. I think if you look at even things that are insular to that, I mean, we talked about me being in the office of the CEO, and I really enjoyed that experience. And when I left,

23:03somebody said, are you excited to go and work in Indigenous and government advisory? And I said, is the dream come true? And they kind of laughed. They said, it's a dream. You're telling me, it's a dream come true to go work and investment banking. Is that really what you saw yourself doing? I said, it's a dream come true because I never thought that I'd see opportunities of this magnitude and frequency in following our relations. And so this is what gets me really excited. This is something that I think is emerging. I don't think it's brand new, but I do think it's been kind of emerging over time. And Rob marked the fact that we're having this conversation now. And we're talking about things like foreign investors, interest in Canada and working with Indigenous populations. I mean, if you go back five years, I don't know if we would have had the same conversation. In fact, I know it wouldn't have been the same conversation. I don't know if we would have had the conversation at all. So I would say like what's new is certainly the Bill Canada Act is put a greater focus on development within Canada. And some of the concessionary capital and

24:07low guarantee programs are certainly putting in emphasis on making sure that there is Indigenous participation. Yeah, I agree with all of that whole heartily. That's why I'm back in Canada that's after so many years abroad. It's just too exciting not to get, not to come back and get right in the thick of it. Exactly. Five years ago is almost a century in the world we're living in because a year and a half ago the world changed. And I think there's so many businesses with all the discussions and the prime minister is out there looking at opportunities for Canada, for new markets, new partners to make things happen. So it's a real exciting time to be in the role that you're at. And I think Scotia is one of the first banks, if not the first bank to set up the type of unit that you're now responsible for. Is that correct? I believe so, Mark. I mean, I think the bank has taken a good approach to that question because

25:11we certainly talked about it in talking to members of global banking and markets. And we discuss the opportunity that this represents. But I don't think you may not have heard that there's a big focus on first the market or only in market because I do think that this is something that is being replicated and we'll certainly see more of as years to come. And like I said, the collegiality amongst the banks as competitors say, hey, if there's a good practice in the market, we all need to be doing it. We all need to be competing. We need to make sure that net beneficiary is the indigenous community. I see it as I'm doing the best I can with this opportunity because I believe in it. I respect the fact that Scotia Bank has said, we think there's a great opportunity for you to help a lot of people here and provide financial services to people and financial advisory where the transactions are a bit more new and nuanced. And I think the response from the community

26:12a large spin, this is great. This is a good thing. We need to understand exactly how it is that you and your group fit into what we're trying to do here. And where is it that we can really bring a lot of this to fruition? And so it's been a great experience, Mark, in having those discussions. I'm obviously very optimistic and when I say it's a dream come true to be in this role, it's this idea of it's a huge responsibility to make sure that if we are looking at opportunities of this magnitude and this frequency that the indigenous populations are not just benefiting from the net and result. When all the debt services done and the proceeds are flowing, that's one thing. It's a lot like what Cedar Leaf Capital is doing. How can we help build capacity so that others know different rather than I've looked up to the work that you've done and Clint Davis has done and Ron Jamison, how is it that I can do my best to set a positive example on being an exemplary model for somebody that may one day want to be in a role like this and before

27:17were equipped and focused on their contribution in this role. So that's honor the people I came before you would make things better for future generations. I'm just trying to set the best example and sincerely hope that we see other competitors in the market poll suit in terms of providing something similar. We are already seeing it, but more formalized so that you get that talent behind you that's going to be able to do this for years to come. John, before we finished, we would be remiss if we didn't talk a little bit about your connections with the Canadian military and some of the work you do in your spare time with, and I know you don't have a lot of spare time with your family and your day job, but tell us a little bit about that. Thanks for all. I'm very, very proud to be a member of the Canadian Armed Forces. I'm a captain with the Queen's York Rangers First American Regiment. We're an armored unit based at Toronto in Aurora, Ontario. We've been doing it for, I guess, 16 plus years now. We talk about decisions

28:26that we make in our career and, you know, you guys said, how did you move from law to finance, and something that's been constant throughout has been my time as a reservist and going through my military training. It takes on a bit of a different context now with what's going on in the world. Certainly, I think everyone's on much more high alert in the last few days than they have been in a long time, and you look at what Canada is saying when it comes to defense spending and increasing that and looking at the fence as a sector, that's going to include a lot more things and just, you know, some of the more traditional things that you do associate with military service. But for me, Rob, it's certainly, I'd say, as I get older, it's been an outlet, but when I was a younger person doing it, I really established a lot of character in me to try to be a better leader. Stuff that I think I had a good foundation for when I work with Scott Thompson to see a leader in action and to understand how to model myself better and those tough situations and how to

29:29just be someone that can be reliable. I don't know what else to say about it other than I love it. I mean, there's no feeling quite like putting on the uniform to serve your country and the people that are like-minded and do the same. I have a special place in my hard for and they become some of the closest people in my life. So it's something that certainly informs what I do, but I also like what it represents as well where, you know, the relationship between the Canadian and our forces and Indigenous populations, if you go back over the years, hasn't always been a good relationship much like with the Crown Indigenous populations in Canada. So I want to be the change that I'd like to see and really make sure that we've just got some phenomenal, phenomenal soldiers who are Indigenous. That gives me so much pride and inspiration and confidence because you can see it in the military, it can be trying at times, but when people get through it

30:31and they've got that confidence built and they're proud to represent their community, whether they're Indigenous or not Indigenous, I think the military has that power. So I'm a very big supporter. I appreciate you asking about it just because it is a big part of my life. It's been tougher to do since having two beautiful kids, but it gives me a lot of pride in who I am and what I do. And I like the idea that it's the best of my ability. I try to represent my community, like the lower Cuba community of six nations of the Grand River. I hope that they feel some pride and the fact that one of their members is a captain in the Canadian Armed Forces. Right. I'm sure they do. And just to come back from a historical perspective, Canada would not exist as a country today if it was not for the Indigenous warriors. I agree, Mark. I encourage you to look more at some of the work that's been done to celebrate some of the Indigenous warriors past and present. Jean Miso is an author. She created a book where she highlights some Indigenous

31:37soldiers as honored to be a part of that project. But I agree. The fabric of Canada as a country, there's so much of it is tied to Indigenous peoples and the culture's history's traditions and languages. And so militaries, one part of it. I won't say anything else because I know people have different opinions on. I want to be respectful of everybody listening, but I take a great amount of pride in being in the Canadian Armed Forces and being an Indigenous person. And I'm just grateful for the opportunities that's afforded me and for the structure that's given me in my life. Yeah. Well, as Mark mentioned in you, you too, over over the centuries time and time again, governments, crown have relied on Indigenous support, military alliances, economic alliances, usually defend off some other influence. So you're another fine example of Indigenous people stepping

32:45up and defending this country and our values. So thank you for your service. In all its forms, you do an awful lot. Well, it's an artist or Rob and Mark, thanks very much for thanks for setting up this forum. It's great to talk to you both whether it's on the podcast or whether it's offline, but try and respect for both of what you're doing. And like I said, when it comes to removing vulnerability, you need discussions like this and like the discussions you've had with so many others to share some knowledge, invite curiosity and give people a way that they can learn a bit more so that should they want to have a new relationship with Indigenous populations or should they want to learn more about who Indigenous peoples are and what we do. I just am grateful that this exists so that people have that outlet. John, maybe before we wrap up, why don't you talk about the summit coming up from the perspective

33:47of Scotiabee and the headline sponsor, what you're looking for, why you think people should be sign up to attend what they're going to benefit from, how this fits into what Scotiabee is trying to achieve. Sure, Mark. And thanks again for the partnership between the Canada Indigenous Investment Summit in Scotiabee. Really my understanding, my approach to why this is an important partnership is because for all the things that we've talked about, about where we're going to see greater Indigenous participation in major privates in Canada, the summit's really created an excellent form for discussion to talk about some of the opportunities, but certainly some of the challenges as well and how we work through them. I consider it a solution space summit and so whether it's what you hear on stage through the panelists or the conversations that you have when you're grabbing a coffee, it's really focused on one thing is how do we propel this forward

34:51in a way that's respectful and from an Indigenous perspective. And at the same time, how do we bring in people that haven't always been at the table? When we talk about foreign investment or foreign joint ventures and partnerships with Indigenous groups, I mean, I think the summit really represents this forward edge thinking in terms of we need to get Indigenous populations, especially as these special purpose vehicles come together, introduced other partners that they wouldn't otherwise think of. And so I find it's a welcoming summit. It's not a pretentious summit in the sense that you can come there with very little knowledge and leave with a lot and certainly have a pocket full of cards of people to talk to to continue on the conversation. But what I really liked about it is it's focused on a delegation. You've put the right people together to have the conversations and those conversations are a bunch of heads nodding. There's different perspectives of how things can be done and where the opportunities are. So we're a very proud sponsor

35:53of the Candid Indigenous Investment Summit, very proud to be delegates out the summit and looking forward to everyone that's going to attend. And just as much looking forward to their relationships I'll be formed and continued on. Keep doing what you're doing. This is important. Though the work you're doing through drumbeads, the work that you're doing through the summit, keep leading. This is a great thing that you've done. I can't say that enough between a summit and the other forums that you've created for discussion. But now you're seeing people start to come in and you're seeing greater subscription. I would say thank you for doing that and let us know how we can help manage the growth and do so in such a way that brings more people in and makes sure that this is a very inviting place where there's a summit or drumbeads or anything else that you're looking to do. So just thank you very much. Okay. Well, thank you and Scotia Bank. Rob, is there anything you'd like to add? Say the same. John, keep what you're doing. What you're doing. I really enjoy watching

36:57your career evolve and the impact that you're having. So congratulations on the new role. Now I'm going to go for being part of this podcast today and we'll look forward to seeing you in London shortly. Looking forward to it. Rob Mark, thank you both very much. Okay. Thank you very much for your time. Today, John, appreciate that. Thank you to Jonathan Davie for sharing his insights with us and thank you for viewing and listening. Mark your calendars for the upcoming 2026 summit taking place on the 8th of April. Be sure to share, subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast channel. Thanks for listening to drumbeads. Until next time. The Toyota Tundra and Tacoma are built to keep going. Blending rugged muscle with precision

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