Is the Housing "Crisis" Real?

I get personal in this episode, in order to ask questions about the nature of what is called the “housing crisis.” Are we all just doom-pilling way too much?

As a case study, I talk through the life and history of my parents, and discuss whether or not their life and lifestyle is still available today. I discuss house sizes, mortgage rates, lifestyle choices, lifestyle inflation, and more.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

AI Transcript

Introduction

Welcome back to The Messy City Podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg. I’m going to do something a little different today and just talk without a guest about the topic of housing in particular and how it ties into a few other kind of hobby courses of mine.

Why Challenge the Housing Narrative

Really what I want to spend some time doing is taking a contrarian view of how we talk about the so-called housing crisis. And in one sense, this is kind of fun for me to do. One of the things I really loved about my father is when we would have our discussions or debates in the family about various things that were going on, he would often take an opposite view of Almost just for the sport of it. And the truth is, there are a lot of times he was so good at it, you didn’t really know if he felt that way or not. Because he could do really well to argue multiple sides of an argument. And that was really a lot of fun. It was an education for me. It’s something I wish more people would just do generally and try to see an issue from multiple perspectives and try to steel man different perspectives or perspectives that are different from your own. And so I’ve kind of taken to obviously do that if you know me at all.

You know I’ve done that a fair amount in my own life. Not nearly as good as my father was at it, but it has been fun to do occasionally. And I really wanted to apply this to the topic of housing. And there’s a couple of reasons for this. And this also ties into a story. I’m going to tell you a little bit of a story about my parents and how they grew up and their trajectory through life, because I think it’s actually very relevant to this topic. And whether or not we have a housing crisis at all in America, or if we do, what is the actual nature of of that crisis. And I want to talk about this because I just see so much online and in person conversation that I just feel like there are too many people, especially too many young people that have been kind of doom pilled on life today and life in America generally.

And the thing that I want to start out that I really want to propose to everybody and talk about is the life that my parents had And their trajectory through life is still available today. It is absolutely and unequivocally still available to anyone who wants to choose the life that they lived. And in my opinion, obviously, I knew them really well. In my opinion, they had a tremendous life. They had a great life. They’ve both passed on in recent years. And so I have to talk in the past tense. But by any measure that matters, they had a great life. They lived well into their 80s. They had four kids. We actually all like each other. So it’s not just like a, you know, there are some families where you can say, well, I love my family. But as my brother used to say, or after my dad passed, he would say, you know, that... We didn’t just love our parents, we really liked our parents.

And I think if you’re fortunate to be in a family like that, you know a little bit of what I’m talking about. And the four of us as children all... We get along. We’re still all friends with each other and get along. We enjoy being together. We’re all very different people with different interests and different worldviews. In some senses, we had pretty different childhoods, interestingly enough, because there’s a big age spread in our family. So my parents had four kids that they raised. They had a long, stable marriage. They were able to get consecutively better houses as they aged. And then by the time they hit retirement age, they had saved enough money to be able to do other things that they wanted to do. Along the way, they traveled when they wanted to. They really wanted to get out and see the country, see the world.

When we were young, that traveling mostly involved just driving around the United States and going to national parks and big cities and seeing the sights. As they got older and had a little bit more disposable income, they would join tour groups and go or sometimes with family to foreign countries and places they really wanted to visit. And I want to give you some context because my parents were not people that grew up with money at all. And I’m going to share some of this because I think it’s important to understand. How they came to be where they were and some of the choices they made and how it might impact choices that young people especially could make today.

My Parents’ Story

My mom grew up very poor. She spent a part of her childhood living in a housing project in Syracuse, New York. And she was one of five kids and they, you know, her whole childhood they never had any money for much of anything. And they often lived in not the greatest part of town, in Syracuse, even when they got out of the housing project. And my dad grew up in a small town in Kansas called Baser, which is just outside the Kansas City area. But at the time when he was growing up, it was a dusty little town of like 600 people. And, again, one of five kids. And his dad was an auto mechanic, had his own garage, but also just, you know, like people do in Little Towns, did a little bit of everything. He drove a school bus. We helped out with the mail. We did a lot of different things in the town. But it’s not like they ever really had any money.

My Uncle George, one of my dad’s brothers, used to say that they were all poor, but they didn’t know it. And part of that is the nature of living in a small rural community. They had a lot of spare time and freedom to roam. And so they probably were able to, you know, occupy themselves with a lot of things that maybe other kids weren’t. My mom’s father, my mom’s parents had a really difficult marriage. My grandfather, her father basically worked in a deli in Syracuse and he And so he worked in a Jewish deli. He was a very, very personable guy, made a lot of his own, made his own corned beef and bagels and everything. And a lot of the customers liked him, but it’s not like he ever really made a lot of money. And he and his wife, my grandmother, had a really difficult time, eventually ended up divorcing.

And my parents ended up meeting each other in sort of a star-crossed romance that I don’t really have time to tell the entire story. But it ended up that they met when my mom was visiting a friend in Leavenworth, Kansas. And... Not too long after that, a romance ensued and eventually a marriage. My parents were born in 1935 and 36, so they’re not boomers. They’re sort of, I guess, what you would call as greatest generation. But they were too young to be deeply invested in the Great Depression or World War II. They were little kids, really, when all that was going on. So I guess in a sense what you could say is they had the cultural memory of those things. They grew up understanding what life was like in the Great Depression. They grew up poor. They grew up during the war and they knew all that that was going on and they were very well attuned to it, but they weren’t part of it.

And I think like a lot of people who grew up in that era, they were really affected, especially by the poverty of what was happening. So one of the things that we used to always say about my mom is she could stretch a nickel like anybody’s business. She was frugal her entire life. And that really came from growing up with next to nothing. And then for many years... After they were married and started having kids, they were living off basically one salary, not like a big salary or anything, for a long time. And so my mom really had to stretch everything to make ends meet. I’m going to come back to the housing part of this because I think there’s some importance to all this.

The Housing Ladder

My parents got married in 1957, on Christmas Eve of 1957, and then right after that, flew off to Germany. My dad at the time, 21, 22 years old, he had been working a little bit, but he decided he wanted to enlist in the Army, and they spent two years in the Army. He was basically sent off to Germany. And so obviously, you know, late 50s, a great time to be sent off to Germany. No active fighting or anything going on. And they spent two years there. My oldest sister was born in Germany. And then my next sister, I guess you could say, was conceived in Germany. And... And then born back here in the United States when they came back. So by the time they came back to the United States, it’s about 1960, and they’ve got two little kids. And at that time, shortly after they bought their first house, which was in a not so great part of the Kansas City area. It was in Kansas City, Kansas.

It was not a terrible area, but not like the greatest. And they bought a small house. And I’ve had some trouble finding out the exact details in this house, but I think it was probably a two or three bedroom with one bath. It’s since been added on to, so it’s hard for me to know exactly. But in this period of time, 1960 or so, that would have been their first house. And, you know, my siblings are just going to really... I want to mock my lack of understanding on some of these details, but I think by the time they left that house, my brother had also been born. So there were three kids there. And I want to trace this trajectory a little bit. There’s a story here that I think we don’t talk enough about that was very common and kind of understood in my parents’ era. Which was the idea of buying a small house. New houses were all generally smaller than they are today.

There’s no question about that. We’ve had a lot of growth in the average size of houses. So houses were smaller. But it was also kind of understood that you were going to buy... A small house, you were going to build some equity in that, and then you would eventually buy a bigger house. And as you went through the progression of life, as you could afford more, you would buy more. And I’m not entirely sure how... I see a lot more people who are looking to buy their first house who want it all right away. They want that four-bedroom house at the right price, and they’re unhappy that they can’t get that. I don’t want to overgeneralize, but this was something that was really common, certainly in my parents’ era. So my dad, after he came back from the Army, he ended up working for a company called Wilson Foods. Wilson Foods was a meatpacking company.

So at the time, one of what they called, I think, the big five meatpacking companies that were in the United States that dominated the field was, Wilson’s was headquartered in Oklahoma City, but it had plants all over the Midwest. And so he started out as a clerk in the office in Kansas City. So he was on a management track, not on the factory track, but he started at a very entry level position. And then the way it kind of worked in our family and with that company was Again, this was an era where people tended to be a lot more loyal to a certain company. And there was more the idea that you find a good company to work for and you might spend your whole career there. So whenever he wanted a promotion or had the opportunity for a promotion, we typically had to move. So this story is going to sound a little crazy because we moved a lot.

And people often thought that we were like a military family, that we were military brats. And we used to say, no, we’re not military, we’re meatpacking. And of course, people didn’t have any idea what we’re talking about, but another just little inside joke we had. So I want to talk a little bit as we trace this and think about house size, but also mortgage rates. Because as we talk about housing availability today, especially for sale housing, we’re really stuck on the conversation about house size and about mortgage rates. Well, I think it’s interesting to look at the trajectory that my parents went through and something very similar to millions of people in that generation today. Went through as they started to move on. So I think it was about

Mortgage Rates in Historical Context

1966 or so that we moved to Omaha. Uh, and I went back and I just did some historical, uh, tracking of, uh, mortgage, typical mortgage rates in 1966, the typical mortgage rate was about 6%. So that’s really not very far off from where we are today. Uh, depending on what you’re looking at today, A lot of the standard kind of 30-year mortgage rates are around 6.5%. It fluctuates from week to week, month to month, but we’ve kind of been in that zone now for two or three years. And the conversation is very much about how high the mortgage rates are. Um, because we had such a sustained period of very low mortgage rates, such that people like myself, when, uh, we purchased and we, when ultimately refinanced our house in 2021, I think our mortgages, our rate is like 2.75%. So we had millions and millions of mortgages at like 3% or under. And then obviously the rates, uh, went up dramatically.

Uh, they went up very, very quickly. Some of the quickest in history. And they’ve more or less settled into where they are the last two or three years, which is about 6.5%. But again, if you look back historically, one of the stories you can tell is that 6.5% is not like an unusually high mortgage rate. It’s just not. You know, I know nobody wants to pay more than, you know... And so why don’t I track here, just by way of example, some of the moves my family made. 1966, that more average mortgage rate was about 6%. In 1970, we moved from Omaha to Dell City, Oklahoma, which is a suburb of Oklahoma City. And the average mortgage rates then were closer to 8%. In 1972, we moved to Oklahoma City itself, and the rates came down a little bit, about 7.4%. In and around 1973, then we moved to Overland Park, Kansas, and mortgage rates had gone up again, a little bit more, closer to 8%.

In 1975-ish, maybe 76, we moved to Albert Lee, Minnesota, where there was a meatpacking plant that my dad became the superintendent for. So this started an era where mortgage rates were really rough. So in 75, the average rate was about 9%. It went up from there. You know, in 1980, it was over, in 1980, it was almost 14%. 1984, my parents were able to, my dad was able to get a job in Marshall, Missouri. So we left Albert Lee and moved to Marshall. 84, it was still 13.88% average mortgage rate. And then by the end of that decade, 1990 had come down to about 10 and a quarter percent. And then 94, my parents, right around that period where my parents, um, Bought their final house in Lenexa, Kansas in their retirement. They weren’t quite retired yet. That’s a different story. But in 94, it was about 8%. And so there was a little blip again in 95 or so is about when I bought my first house.

That was about eight and a half percent was a typical rate. And then it kind of went on a straight line down more or less from 1995 till about 2021 down to about that three percent rate. And so, again, this is kind of, you know, it’s a bit of a long story. But if you can trace these things historically, you can see that the expectation of paying a six, six and a half, seven percent interest rate is just historically not that high. Now, I know historic doesn’t matter when you’re trying to buy a house today and they’re not as much churn in the housing market. But I mean, that’s just part of the reality that many, many families paid much higher mortgage rates. Now, what about the houses themselves? Well, this is also interesting. When we lived in Omaha, That’s where I was born in 1969. Our house was a three bedroom, one bath ranch with a basement. Um, uh, sort of like a basement playroom.

Uh, that was very typical for that era. So there were six of us living in a three bedroom, one bath house. When we moved to Oklahoma, the first house we had was three bedrooms, one and a half baths. And then when we moved to Oklahoma city, again, sort of within the same Metro at that point was our first four bedroom house. So here we are early seventies. Uh, my parents at that point had been married, uh, For 15 years, they had four kids at home. The oldest was now in high school or about high school age. And that was our first four bedroom house. And I think we had two and a half baths in that one. When we moved back to the Kansas City area in 73-ish, we also had a four-bedroom house. So that was a more comfortable kind of a split-level house at that point. And we’re getting to the point there where almost all of us had our own bedrooms, but not all of us.

I shared a bedroom with my brother in that house. I shared a bedroom with my brother for quite a long time. And when we moved to Minnesota in the mid-70s and then lived there for about eight years, we had a ranch house in Albert Lea. Housing costs everything. I will say this was my parents’ experience of living in Minnesota was everything was a lot more expensive than they were used to. You couldn’t, in their opinion, couldn’t get as much house for your money. The taxes were a lot higher in Minnesota than in other states. The utility costs were higher. And so we had a ranch house that I think had three bedrooms and then it had a finished basement that we finished. And We put a bedroom in the finished basement that would not meet code today. It did not have the proper exiting. But that was something we did. And it was to the point where Minnesota, the winters could be pretty harsh.

And so we would commonly close off the family room for the winter in Minnesota and just not use it. We had another room that had a TV where we spent the winter with But again, this is just kind of indicative of the frugal mindset that my parents had. And

Lifestyle and Frugality

I want to say that because I think it’s important when you’re thinking about lifestyle differences in their generation versus today. And I’m not here to pass judgment on anybody necessarily necessarily. But that frugal lifestyle that they lived for many, many years enabled them to have the things that they wanted to have and do the things that they wanted to do. So what are some examples of that? Well, we almost never ate out. So I can barely even remember times as a kid that we would go out to a restaurant. My mom bought generic brands of food. She used coupons regularly. When we took vacations as a family, they were typically driving vacations. And my mom would pack a cooler full of food and we would stop at highway rest areas and eat our meals there. And we stayed in very cheap motels. Sometimes there was camping, not a lot. My mom did not like camping. But...

And I’m here to tell you my memories of those trips were great. As a kid, I loved those trips. We would start, you know, for example, in Minnesota and we would drive all the way to the West Coast and we would go to the national parks in Washington State and Oregon and, you know, went to Redwoods National Park in Northern California. Or we would start in Minnesota and we would drive all the way to Disney World and we would hit sites along the way. And to me, those trips were magical and wonderful and a lot of fun. And I think for my parents, they were really great trips as well. But we did things on the cheap. And we just did not waste a lot of money on things. But it didn’t stop my parents from Seeing the things they wanted to see and enjoying the things that they wanted to enjoy in life.

And today, the term that we have for kind of that approach, because we have to have a term for everything, is FIRE or FI, Financial Independence or Financial Independence Retire Early. And so that’s become kind of a thing that quite a number of people have latched onto. Which is terrific. And I’m a big fan of a lot of people in that world. It’s also true that that was just kind of the way life was for an awful lot of people of a previous era. And that was just life. I remember my dad telling me one time that they never saved any money or weren’t able to save any money until he was about 50 years old. And he had, you know, by the time he was 50 years old, at that point, he’d had decent jobs. And my mom started, she worked when she could in between raising four kids.

And so as the kids started becoming more self-sufficient, she was able to work different jobs and bring in some extra money. But yeah, he had told me they really were almost never able to save money until, frankly, we moved back to Marshall, Missouri, and he had a better job. And things were cheaper. They felt like they got a big pay increase when they left Minnesota and moved to Missouri. And so not long after that, then when they were able to retire, even in retirement, even at that point when they had Enough retirement income to rely on. My mom still could never, she just did not have it in her to like overspend for anything. And she still kind of questioned every purchase that she made. But they were also really happy people. It’s funny how we have often such a consumerist mindset that we feel like if we’re not consuming a lot of things, that means you’re not happy.

My parents were very social. They had a ton of friends. They stayed in touch with their families, an extended family. And they were just very active, fun, social people. So not being able to spend a ton of money just didn’t stop them from doing things. By the time that I was in high school, my siblings were all out of the house. My oldest sister was already married. Teresa was well on her way in her education and career. Dean was also already well on his way in his college education and then later working after college. But I was actually the first one that they were even able to help with a little bit of money for going to college, which of course my siblings gave me a lot of crap about. And would call me spoiled. But that was just the first time that my parents had had enough little extra money to even be able to help any of their kids at that stage.

What This Means Today

So it’s just really, to me, a story of living what at that time was a pretty patently kind of common or normal life, which was you buy a small place. Maybe you start in not the greatest part of town. And then eventually you start making more money and you work your way up until you can buy bigger places and nicer places. And I think this is a story we just don’t talk about very much. As your family grows, as you grow in your career, you can afford more of a house. I think there’s this sometimes doom-pilling that that’s just not possible today. I wanted to test this a little bit, and I just did a little bit of playing around on Zillow. Looking at what houses were available that were anything similar to what my parents might have bought as their first couple of houses.

Lo and behold, in some areas that are not the nicest, newest, greatest part of town, but not bad areas, you can find those small two and three bedroom houses, at least in my metro area here in Kansas City. For $250,000 to $300,000. And there’s nothing wrong with these houses. They’re smaller than normal. They’re not a big four-bedroom, four-bath house. But they’re perfectly livable homes in decent areas. If you want to go to even less fashionable places, you can find that same house. And houses that have been remodeled for under $200,000. So, you know, yeah, you’re probably going to deal with higher crime. Maybe the schools aren’t, it’s not the school district you want to be in, but these are livable houses that are there. And they’re also the kind of places like they’re not, they’re not horrid places to live.

Like if you got some of your friends and you all convinced each other to all move to that part of a town, you could, you could make it better by buying these properties, uh, and real estate, um, And, you know, we don’t like to talk about this very much as Americans, but the truth is by like global standards, any of these houses are very luxurious. We’re all very lucky to live in a place where we could live, where you could own like a two bedroom, one bath house that is modern and nice with great appliances and everything else and complain about it, that you really wish you had more. So anyway, here’s a few of the numbers. Just out of curiosity, if you’re wondering, if you take like a $250,000 house, if you put 5% down on it, that’s $12,500. And if you have a mortgage rate at 6.65%, that’s about $2,000 a month with taxes and insurance.

So I’m here to tell you that $2,000 a month is cheaper than almost all of the brand new, quote unquote, luxury apartments. That are all over my city that are renting with no problem. And I know they’ve got a pool and they’ve got a fitness center, but you’re also paying somebody else to live there. You’re not building any kind of wealth or equity for yourself. That’s the sort of thing, that’s the sort of a house that you can easily do on a salary of $80,000 a year, whether it’s one person or combined. And by the way, I just, I was curious about this. The average 25 year old in my metro area makes 40,000 bucks a year. So you put two 25 year old salaries together, average ones, that’s 80 a year. You can buy that house. And then you can start on that process that is similar to what my parents were on.

And so again, I, you know, If you were to tell me, I’m not here today to argue that there aren’t changes that need to be made in our cities with our regulatory apparatus or any of that. If you’ve listened to this podcast at all over the last few years, you know how passionate I am about all of that. I am very much in the camp that the administrative and regulatory apparatus that we created in the 20th century for our cities has failed by every measure. That doesn’t mean the people in them are necessarily bad people or dumb or anything like that. It just means that we have, we created systems that just do not work and do not produce good outcomes. And any rational person or group should be able to say, we need to junk that and start over and rethink what we’re doing.

And so I’m very much in that camp that there’s an awful lot of what we created in the 19-teens and 20s in terms of the city planning apparatus and zoning that has been a complete failure. And we need to start over, rethink all that. It’s not working. So, you know, I have that as a baseline, but I just don’t think so many I don’t think especially young people should be so black-pilled on everything or doom-pilled on everything. The opportunities that previous generations had are still available. Now, are they going to be available everywhere in every market for every career path? No. I mean, I get it if you live in really high-cost markets like San Francisco, New York, Seattle, LA, wherever. I have no doubt it’s a lot harder. I do think there probably are less fashionable places that people overlook. That would probably be just fine.

I have no doubt that that’s the case in every city in the country, every region in the country. There are perfectly nice houses, but they’re not the newest, most fashionable, cool location. And, and we have had such a lifestyle inflation. We don’t want to necessarily go there. I get that. But the truth, the question is, do you want to get there or not? Do you want to start on that path or not? And the other thing I would tie into that is like I’ve mentioned on multiple podcasts here, let’s say that you don’t want to do that two bedroom, one bath house. You want something a little bigger. Well, you could also combine it with the house hacking approach, which I have done in my lifetime, multiple times. The first house I bought was actually built as a single family house in the 19 teens. But by the time I bought it, it was actually a triplex. It was one unit per floor.

And I lived on one floor and rented out the other two. It was not in great condition. I got it pretty cheap. It was not in the best neighborhood at the time, but I got a good deal on it. I put a lot of sweat equity and work into improving it and was eventually able to sell it for a good profit and move on to the next house, which was much nicer and where I also house hacked. In that case, I had an apartment over the garage, what we call an ADU today, that I finished out as an apartment and I rented that out. And helped offset the mortgage. So there are plenty of ways that you can get creative. You could buy a three-bedroom house and rent a room out to a friend or a family member or somebody else. There are ways that you can leverage house hacking to get into the house that you might want sooner. But the main message I would have is that those things are still possible.

Practical Advice

The basics that enabled previous generations to live a good life in this country are still here. If you have a strong sense of family, if you get educated or have a trade or a skill that is tangible, that is marketable, for example, try not to enter a field of work that is overly academic or philosophical in nature. You need to have a real skill. If you have a good work ethic, If you do get married, stay married. Again, I’m not going to moralize on any of that, but the data is super clear that people who get married and stay married almost always end up in the middle class or better in this country. Make yourself valuable to others, you know, from family to neighbors. Get involved in your community in some fashion, you know, in the real world and Be frugal. Save your money. Don’t waste it until you can afford to waste it.

And if you have any sense of frugality when you’re a younger person and you can put money away in your 20s and 30s, you will get older. And by the time you hit your 40s, 50s, or 60s, you’re going to find you’re going to have maybe some money, more disposable income, At that point that you can really enjoy and you’re still young enough to enjoy it. And health care these days is so good and health science is so good that you should be able to stay healthy for a much longer period of time. Buy a small house, take care of it, and then either add to it or sell it and buy a bigger one when you can. That is part of the process that we just don’t talk very much about today. So I think in general, I would suggest let’s stay away from, try not to lean too much into doomerism.

Regardless of your own personal feelings, you know, how you see the world today or not, focus on yourself, what you can control, and what’s possible. And figure out how to create your own life trajectory that is valuable and great for you.

What’s Next

I’m going to tackle a couple other subjects in future episodes. I want to talk a little bit more about how I think the... The administrative and regulatory processes we created over 100 years ago have failed us and what’s to be done about that, like what’s a different idea or path. And then I also want to touch on a little bit, there’s a whole other subject. There’s a big part of what we call the housing crisis that is really driven by a series of policy choices we’ve made for the last 50 years or so. That have really benefited a small number of cities and the professional class in those cities. And it’s really hard to uncouple these realities that we have what a lot of people have described elite overproduction today. We have been emphasizing for 50 years to tell everybody to go to college and get a degree, any degree. And I understand why we did that at the time.

I went to college and I think going to college to get a degree. To go for higher education and get a really great skill is a great thing to do. But we have a lot of people who went to college and don’t really have still very marketable skills or degrees. And they’re all kind of following a path that I think they were told to follow by parents and grandparents and counselors, which was go to college, go move to one of these really great cities where there’s a lot of jobs for college graduates. And starting your path and what you end up with is you have too many people chasing housing and jobs in too few cities.

That has led to a lot of what we talk about as the housing crisis, but there’s the flip side of that we don’t talk very much about, which I’ll also delve into in a future episode, which, in my opinion, is the true housing crisis, and that is that we have too many places in our country that have been in terminal decline for decades. They often are well located neighborhoods. Or well-located communities, but they have been dying. And this proliferation of dying and derelict communities and neighborhoods is really at the heart of a terrible, terrible problem where people are just more bent on trying to figure out survival. Because there’s not an economy to attach themselves to that gives hope for the future. So we’ve got two sides of the same coin with very different concerns.

One is we have an awful lot of people chasing a certain lifestyle in a very small number of places that is driving price increases in those places. And then we have actually a much larger number of places that have basically been abandoned. Some that could really have hope for the future and others that there are not great answers for, at least today. And that’s a subject that I’ll try to tackle a little bit more for a future day. So at any rate, I hope this has been interesting for you. If you’ve listened to this podcast at all since I’ve been doing it, you know I actually really enjoy talking about my family and talking with my family members. And I’ve had my brother and one of my sisters on here before. And I’ll be having my brother on again very soon because he’s got a new book out that I think you’ll be actually very interested in. So that’s all for today.

I hope everybody’s having a good summer and we’re dealing with the full breadth of the Midwest heat at the moment, but it’ll be over soon and then fall is right around the corner and on into another year. Thanks so much for listening. As always, if you enjoy it, please hit like, leave a review, follow, whatever it is. I am terrible about marketing this podcast since it’s something that is basically a hobby for me. But if you enjoy it, please help me out and help spread the word. Thanks so much. Bye. Farewell, farewell with a friend, farewell. Farewell, farewell with a friend, farewell. Farewell, farewell with a friend, farewell. Farewell, farewell with a friend, farewell.

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