Instagram Is Not Your Portfolio (PHEW!)

0:00Welcome. We're all wrapped in blankets. It's a proper winter podcasty session. Isn't it? Curtains are closed. We're all so full with the blankets around us. We thought we'd talk about Instagram today. Oh, I know. It's a bit of a book. About the difference between having a folio on your website or treating your Instagram account like a folio. Yeah. What is the difference, isn't it? Yeah. Because I was thinking there are a lot of illustrators who have come up on Instagram and have a career because of Instagram. And so there are a lot of illustrators without a website folio.

1:00Well, they illustrators who were there when Instagram was good. Good old days stuff. They grew a career probably what eight years ago when you could do that. Yeah. I'll agree that it needs to be so different and everything. I prefer to have an Instagram to be social. Do you know what I was going to say there? Lookie, social because my daughter says lookie all the time. It's a little bit of my... It's so embarrassing. Fat to hold to say that. Are you down with the trumpet sound? Well, I'm too old. Let's just stop myself. Yeah. So Instagram is just social fun. Hello to people, nice community, walk to see, share behind the scene stuff. But my folio is way more curated than that. Imagine trying to make a folio on Instagram, but Instagram at the same time want you to post almost every day. And then you're a man. Well, you couldn't keep the work quality up. It would be impossible, wouldn't it? If you think everything had to be folio ready, which I thought that's how I felt about it

2:04when I first started doing it. And you were a great help because you were like, no, you're just... You're padding out other parts of your personality, show where your ideas come from. It's not meant to be portfolio-worthy pieces for each one. Plus, it's also risky and dangerous because you don't own Instagram. So if you're relying on that as your portfolio, it's probably good to start with when you know you're going to do a website. And it's just for now, three months, alternative while you get your website done. But you've got to move over to something that you actually own and not rely on Instagram. Just before this podcast, Tanya showed us a cool website called Capital Virtue. And it had different... It was the right one, isn't it? Yeah, Capital Virtue. It's part of the Jackie Winters agency. And it's one of their new ideas. It's so cool. It's so cool because each artist's got like a full page and you scroll down and there's different videos of being in, how many followers they've got, their work. Obviously, things they've been interviewed on, it's nice that. But it was so cool to see the 360 of the artist because you saw their face, you heard them talking and you saw their work and you saw movement.

3:05And I think that's more... If you want to use Instagram in a way that's sustainable and useful, thinking of it in that way, like a 360 look at everything, not just here's my work, here's my work, here's my work. Yeah, I think if you try and make it, if you think of it as a folio, it's really high pressure. You'd have to be creating work that was equally good standard all the time. Instagram's definitely for an all-round picture of you as a person, you're rough drawings behind the scenes, personality. It's like a chat, isn't it? It's more of a chat. Yeah, and you don't want to put too much personal stuff on. It's finding that balance, isn't it, like you said before. Publishers or art directors don't want to play through loads of pictures of landscape or your dog or the food that you're eating. But you can interleave a little bit of that in between, especially if, for example, you work as landscape-based, then you would be showing landscape imagery. So it's good to do backstories to what your key themes are in your work, or your key pillars, or what your personality is.

4:05Is it humorous? Is your work meant to be funny? Therefore, what do you find funny? You're giving... Yeah. Backstory that makes you a more present and larger person on Instagram. Because we're also saying, when we talked about AI last week, is that people are now beginning to use illustrators with a kind of known status or profile, so that it's easy for companies to prove that the artists they've used is not an AI artist. They are someone. And that's someone comes about by building up who you are online. So you can be pointed to. We've managed to grab this person for our campaign. And I think that's why Jackie Winters is pushing the capital virtues thing, showing someone in 360, like what's their favourite TV programme, and lots of other little kind of ephemeral things that surround the main personality. Yeah, and there's so much power in showing your human face, isn't there? Because I think if you have a totally faceless account, it makes it... You can do it, but it's so much harder for people to get to know you

5:07and like you and trust you and from the cutthroat business brain. In the illustration business club, I was talking about the power of showing your face on your belt page and don't be scared to have actual photos of you doing the work. I think if you do that on Instagram, it makes... Firstly, because it's the algorithm is trained, like your face is on it, it's going to be more interesting. People are interested in seeing you. And then also I was going to say being a content creator is like an actual completely separate job. So not getting too tied up and feeling like you have to create stuff every single day and post loads of things and because that would be completely exhausting. You can use Instagram in a way that shows some of your work, shows some of your face, but don't feel like, oh my god, I have to post today, because it's been... Oh, I hate that. That horrible commitment and responsibility if you have to be consistent even if it's once a week, once every two weeks, it just makes me feel fully rebellious. I'm not doing that. So I think I'm the test pilot for doing nothing for eight months

6:07and then posting a flurry of 10 posts in a week, then disappearing and wandering off for three months, then coming back. And it seems to be okay, it's not a complete disaster. I just don't want to be held hostage to that stupid rule of the only way this is going to work, because if you commit to me, I don't want it. I don't want to be held hostage to it, because you've got a portfolio on your website that looks incredible. So people can come across you on Instagram, agents, publishers, clients, can find you and then go and look at your website, whereas if Instagram is all you've got, you need that to be a bit of a portfolio as well. So I think it's good to have both want to bring eyes in and then point them at the curated version of you, what they would get if they commissioned you. Yeah. I'm probably a bit bad at that. I don't actually share my work on Instagram really ever. And if I do, it's like, oh, here's my work. But then I get embarrassed if I talk to a client and they're like, oh, yes, what, your Instagram? And I'm like, that's not the right Instagram account. It's supposed to be on the one, right?

7:08But the one where I only post work, firstly, I hardly ever use it. And secondly, it's got hardly any followers. I didn't know you had any other post work. I had no idea about this secret account. It got a finster. It's basically a portfolio. And I did it like that was I used to have a link at the bottom of my website. And it would be updated with new work. I didn't update it. Some at least did. And anyways, but they got rid of it because I felt like it was distracting people. And I was like, my website is my portfolio. It's got loads of examples on. So why am I sending people to Instagram where I know for a fact they're going to get sucked into the abyss and be like watching reels and then come to an hour later, but like, what was I doing? That's what I would do. That's, it's not interesting. Totally different angles we come from. You've been your illustration Instagram and kept with your personality and interactive into Instagram. And I always wonder like, how do you do it? I can't talk to Instagram on camera with my face. I just, how did you build up to the confidence? I think I just really enjoy it.

8:08And silly, like when I was little, you should do fake radio programs and write newspapers and things. I feel like all those childhood things that I really enjoy doing. It's Instagram and it's free. And people like it to make things to usually that are always a nice things, but it's just good fun. It's so brave as well, because like we always talk about getting feedbacks really tough. I think Instagram, talking on Instagram feels like frontline stuff. If anyone's going to have a pop at you, it'll be there. It's almost more scary. But it doesn't stop you. Maybe it's live illustrations quite scary. I like doing things of this scary, otherwise it's boring. If nobody's going to see it, what's the point? The risk of something happening. I'm like, oh, okay then, let's do it. But I feel like it's very different in my brain, like doing stuff on Instagram. Thinking about who your audience is, like for me on Instagram, I feel like it's, I'm talking to other illustrators. I'm not talking to clients. So it feels like a very, it's for good shape. It's for making friends with other illustrators, because working alone a lot of the time. And I think that's how people get confused as well.

9:10And I remember years ago, Holly Exley, the watercolor illustrator, being, I think it was on Twitter. She was really annoyed that all the illustrators were following her. And she was like, I want clients to follow me. And I don't know what the answer to that is, but I think maybe that's worth thinking about. I think that is worth thinking about, because as an illustrator, most of the people who follow you will be illustrators. But that's a really big value as well, because if you want to start a sub-stack and put, and have a paywall and some of this stuff, you're going to make another stream of income through sub-stack or your online shop. It's great that most of the people following you are illustrators. If you can get those people from your Instagram account onto a mailing list, and then you have your online shop, brilliant illustrators, love other illustrators work. It's really good. And you'll never get, if you're hoping for clients, there will be clients looking there, but they're a tiny proportion compared to the number of illustrators on Instagram. So if you're only putting out there for clients, you'd have very few followers. That was the whole thing about social media

10:10in the beginning. There was no one at first started. I feel like a dinosaur saying this, when people were like, yeah, you just go online and become the go-to person, involve yourself in discussions, and maybe you'll be asked to be a judge on some panel or to quote something in a newspaper article, and be like, why would you want to do that? Just show me the clients. Where are the clients? And then the idea that social media became a community of your peers. I think that was quite hard for my generation to get their heads around, because it was always, I am only interested in speaking to clients and getting work, but it's a much more securitist way of using social media and getting work now, because other illustrators are effectively your champions. They're people who sort of cheer you on. They might recommend you for things, or just by virtue of following you, they boost your visibility so much more because they like your work, and that gives art directors confidence. That you're followed by a lot of other illustrators, or you have a big following, it's not going to be like 20,000 art directors.

11:1180% of that has got to be bystanders or other illustrators. So it's a much more organic way of building your profile, and that never existed in the, I don't know, I don't think it existed in the 80s. It's a pre-internet. I don't know whether other illustrators bigged up other illustrators. It was just every man for themselves. Yeah, I think it was every man for themselves, definitely. So that sharing is a different culture. You wouldn't have an online shop. I graduated from art school in 94. The idea of having an online, being online, I remember sending emails. Now and again, there's a big deal. Fire up the computer. Exactly, yeah. So just the way the illustrators make a living now has completely changed. If you wanted to sell your work, you had the gatekeeper of a gallery to say yay or nay, and they were, there were very few pickings for illustrators because the big fine art illustration divide still existed and it was really clear cut. You can't come in here.

12:12You're not a painter. Are you a designer or illustrator over to the other corner for you that you'd show in competitions like A.O.I. competitions? If that became a traveling show, you might sell work there. But illustrators didn't sell work as a rule. So that's a huge change. I wonder how you would get an audience of just... I wouldn't be linked in this more like that, isn't it, why you're speaking to... A client. An audience of clients. But even then, I'm linked in as other illustrators. Like when I see people were linked and sometimes I'm just like, who's like this? And it's like a list of 20 illustrators. Or other people's posts, yeah. Just as I thought. See what happened to the other. An audience of other illustrators is really valuable, though, even from a publisher's point of view, because if you have a really big following on Instagram, it's a huge help to get published. It's not necessary. You don't have to have a huge following to get public, but to get published. But it's another tick in the box towards you being a good bet. Yeah. With an audience. And it's just... It's a matter of just showing up and repeating, isn't it,

13:13without... On a level that you can personally manage, without burning out, I think, that enigma of... Enigma. The phenomena of so many illustrators who've done what they've been told to do in order to get the profile to get themselves work. And then just collapse. It's a bit of... Instagram for six months, come back and they've still got a nervous tick. I could have not tried again. But it's been really tough on illustrators. If you haven't got the energy, the time span, the skills, the mental wherewithal to keep putting yourself out there. I wonder what will supersede it? What could come next? Do you think you can still have a good portfolio if you don't have social media? You can certainly have a good portfolio. Whether anyone will find it. Yeah, that's it. Maybe that's what social media is. It's like a way in. To feed people to your portfolio. Yeah, they find you, they stumble upon you, they get to know you, they look at your work, and because they know you, they're more likely to work with you. I don't really have what you would consider a portfolio on my website.

14:13You don't need one. It's different stages of career, isn't it? How you use social media is dependent on what you want on what stage of your career you're at. I just think for younger illustrators, younger illustrators, and graduate illustrators, they've been born into this boiling soup. They know no other. We had annuals, didn't we? Yeah. That was the outlet. Oh, they were grim now, weren't they? You had to pay to be in them, and then your work would be in it, and the nulla colours would look wrong, and you were beside another illustrator who's working hated and make yours look bad. Yeah. They were so bad. Oh, the Airbrush artist, who just didn't seem to have anything to do with the group of illustrators. We were coming from. At least you couldn't curate how your work is seen on Instagram, because you're choosing what piece of work to put beside another. Yeah. You're in control of it, and the people looking at it, you can get them on an email list. It's yours. Yeah. Even though they're sub-stacks, I was on your sub-stack this morning, and it looks so nice on the page. Thank you.

15:13Just because all the illustrations and the colours and everything. I said, you can't do that if it's, like, on Instagram and the feed, it's all flying past, isn't it? But I feel like your sub-stacks slower, and it was nice to see. No, thank you very much. Thank you very much. I think I don't have a folio on my website, because it's back to that thing, with three of us being different types of illustrators. Once I've got a client, that's it. I'm married to them forever, so I don't need a folio to bring in new clients. Also, my books are my folio. They're in the world. Yeah. So if a publisher is thinking of working with me, they already know my books, they're in the world, so I don't really need it. Whereas you guys, you have new clients frequently. So a folio is vital. And even then, my folio is a sales page, as well, because it's like a bit of work, a bit of persuading, a bit of work, a bit of persuading. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rather than, like, when I started out, my portfolio was a page, like, yeah, it is my portfolio. And then, that was it. The idea of having your work out in the world as books, like permanent portfolios,

16:13many portfolios scattered around bookshops. Business card. Lovely idea. Tania, it is not always lovely. So the books that I wish I hadn't done now, and they are out there in the world. Are they still there? The ones that, the early ones that you don't like? No, actually, the good thing is that they go out of print after a while. No, the ones that, the ones I love are the ones that stay. I've had times where I've had, I'll sign up with a publisher, the art director, a left, leave, another old calm. Once I had five art directors, so you can imagine the state of this book by the end. Oh, no. I just had to pretend that book didn't exist. Luckily, it went out of print quite quickly, but it was in the world on bookshops with my name on it. Yeah, you feel like it needs a poster stuck to every copy, good, sorry. Five art directors. Wasn't my fault. Yeah, that's the downside, isn't it? Because at least if you do a bad magazine illustration and you're cringing for a month,

17:13it's over after a month, and not many people accept the dentist have got copies of that anymore. I think competitions are taking over annuals, where annuals used to be. Okay, you can't guarantee you'll be in it, but you couldn't always guarantee you'd be in an annual, A, it costs too much, and if your work was really rubbish, that might probably refuse you. But world illustration awards seems to be getting bigger and more global, and that's the closest to being out there as another way of selling yourself directly to whoever your client is going to be. Because you pay to enter that one, don't you? There's a fee. Yeah, there's a fee. I think it's reasonable. It's mid-range. Yeah. And that, oh, actually, when this comes out, the submissions, the deadline was extended by a week, but I think it will be finished by the time this comes out. Yeah. I see lots of good shippers entering their work. Yeah. And lots of them have got into depictus and lots of different pitch book competitions, something. There's always a good showing, the Bologna exhibition. There's quite a few good shippers.

18:13Shippers in the depictus Bologna stand this year, which is exciting. And we have a stand-up Bologna this year too. Yes. If you're coming, drop by and see us, we've got sweets. We should explain what a Bologna book fair is. Yeah. It's a big international book fair where all of the publishers turn up with their books and sell to each other in foreign editions. Actually, that's where I've seen your portfolio, because your agent had a portfolio that she was showing people as like, here's the hell in the big. Oh, really? Yeah. At Bologna. That's just your books, really. It was like, here's the books. Yeah. Is it April the 13th to the 17th? Something like that. If you haven't got a flight book yet, though, because it's super busy, isn't it? But if you can get to Italy, even if you can stay in Pisa or Milan or Vienna, you can come for the day on the train. I've been added to a WhatsApp chat of good shippers going to Bologna. Oh. And apparently, at midday on Monday, my picture with the other podcast, we're going to meet at the stand at our stand-up. At our stand? At our stand?

19:13Yeah. With the range that I was like, I hope I was not too getting people. That's going to be busy. But yeah, it's going back to our Instagram. What's our take on it? Our takeaway is, don't rely on it completely. You know what you're trying to achieve? I think that's where it gets really burn-out-y. If you're just posting, because you think you should, but you don't know why you're doing it. Yeah, without focus. And just that pressure of a must post all the time. And then that's at the sacrifice of a really lovely, curated folio. That's not ideal. So a nice curated folio of work that you like doesn't have to be too many pieces. Don't put in anything that you don't like, because the publishers will definitely look at that and say, can we have more of that? And then as much Instagram as you can do without ruining your energy and burning out, yeah. As a bit of an old boomer, I've been introduced to edits. It's so exciting. Isn't it good? It's so easy. Yeah. I have wanted a so long to figure out how to string bits of film together

20:14and edit it and so forth. The kids tried to show me cap cut. I couldn't deal with it. But yeah, edits is really good. So I think I might be trying to make some little film things soon. Yeah. And Katie will tell me how to talk to the world. Do you just pretend you're talking to your best friend on Instagram? Yeah. Just let your first time in your mum or something. Okay. That's what I'm going to do. See you next week. Bye. Bye.