Inside an escalating tit-for-tat in Iran

0:00This week on Two Blocks from the White House From trade wars to the war in Iran, it's been anything but a quiet summer in Washington. And this fall shows no signs of letting up. And so this week we're asking what moments defined American politics this summer and what can we expect this fall? Find and follow Two Blocks from the White House wherever you get your podcasts. And watch us on YouTube, new episodes drop every Wednesday. This is a CBC podcast. Hello, I'm Nielkuksell. Good evening, I'm Chris Hauden. This is as it happens. Tonight. One battle after another, Iran and the US continue to escalate their attacks. Each hoping the other will blink first, but an analyst says adding fuel to the fire is a risky strategy. A good hang for the first time in almost a millennium, the biotapistry returns to British soil.

1:04An expert tells us that 11th century masterpiece lends itself to 21st century sensibilities. Another world, it took nearly a decade, but a spacecraft is finally nearing its destination. The tiny planet of Mercury, one scientist explains how he's managed to stay patient over that long haul. Breathing uneasy, a team of parents calls for stricter health regulations in arenas after young hockey players are exposed to carbon monoxide. Game set, nap, after last night's 4 plus hour US Open Match, a tennis reporter who was on the scene explains how their hard days night covering the quarter final went into the wee hours of the morning. And down under pressure, one team arrived a week before, tomorrow's NFL game in Australia, and the other arrived a day before, having ostensibly dozed on the flight. Sleep scientists will be monitoring who prevails. As it happens, the Wednesday edition radio that is not to be slept on.

2:19Night vision footage released by the United States shows an Iranian oil tanker chugging along and suddenly bursting into flames. The US military said it destroyed five tankers yesterday, in a tit for tat escalation of the month's long conflict. Iran responded by targeting American military bases in Jordan and said that today it had attacked 10 ships near the street of Hormuz. Reporters asked Donald Trump about Iran this afternoon. The US president Donald Trump, speaking earlier today, Iran is facing a growing economic threat and the prospect of losing full control of the state of Hormuz. So Iranian leaders are gambling on a risky new strategy to intensify its attacks

3:22on the US. Farzan Sabet is an Iran analyst at the Geneva Graduate Institute. We reached him in Geneva. Farzan, how do you think the Iranian leadership might be digesting those latest comments from the US president? I think the Iran relish has become more or less the custom to the bombastic rhetoric from US president Donald Trump. At the same time, they believe that they're in a strong position to, if not deter the US president, then retaliate, maybe climbing up the escalation ladder faster than he's able to or kind of higher than he's able to. And so they remain confident that they can handle whatever he throws at them, even if that comes with a high price. I want to dig into that part of the strategy or the calculation at play when the timing behind that calculation on Iran's part right now because as you all know, you know, many experts and analysts have been weighing in for quite some time saying, you know, Iran has the most to gain by keeping the

4:26status quo dragging things out, not necessarily escalating. So why do you think they're changing or shifting things or suggesting that they would shift things at this moment? They're not necessarily shifting things completely. They're adapting to the situation they face. Both sides believe that they can squeeze the other side into making more concessions through economic pressure while managing military tensions and escalation. At the same time, Iran's strategy of economic pressure on the US relies on their ability to push down traffic, energy traffic through the straight of Orhan Hamuz and push up global energy prices. Before they were able to do that with limited strikes and, you know, by threats, that their ability to close the straight with those means has kind of eroded over time. And so in order to get some of the same effect in terms of closing down and pushing down exports through the straight, they're forced to escalate to higher levels.

5:29At the same time, they realize that going too far up the ladder could be highly costly. So it's a rather delicate balancing act for them. Both sides are also, you know, as they rattle the sabers if we want to put it that way, are also saying, we still talk. We're still open to talking. So what do you think is actually going to happen? I mean, are these statements both for just domestic audiences or are they signaling something to each other as well? But both sides are talking, but they're not necessarily close to deal. So the Iranians, they're willing and they're actually seeking to re-implement the MOU. That was kind of already in place in June. But they want to make a clear that they retain control over the straight of Orhan Hamuz. Either formally in an agreement or, you know, informally where maybe they come to, some kind of arrangement with Oman and the US, well, not publicly accepting its signs off on it. On the other hand, the US, at least for the time being, doesn't appear to be particularly interested in a deal. And,

6:32you know, the Iranians believe that the President Trump can kind of be squeezed more or is more likely to give them concessions and they'll lead up to the midterm elections. I'm not quite sure if that calculus is correct to some extent, at least a partial loss in those elections is baked into, I think, its political calculus. Nonetheless, that's what the Iranians believe. And so they think that if they are going to escalate, if they're going to try to imply pressure, he's more susceptible to that pressure and lead up, and the lead to the elections. The Trump administration, on the other hand, as I said, is not necessarily interested in re-implement the MOU. They think they're in a good position to, on the one hand, squeeze the Iranians economically while at the same time applying maximum pressure sanctions, so non-kinetic, non-military instruments to intensify that pressure, to kind of contain Iranian escalation, let that pressure play out. And of course, we're seeing some signs that the economy in Iran is deteriorating across a whole set of metrics,

7:32both in terms of the data and kind of anecdotally. And so I think because both sides, at least for the time being, appear fairly confident in their positions, they're less likely to be willing to make the kind of compromises needed for the deal. I wanted to ask you about the impact this is having for people inside Iran, even speaking to people there. What are they telling you about? Because we're talking about livelihoods, but certainly lives as this drags on. So, you know, the country has been under decades of sanctions. The sanctions in the last 15-20 years have been particularly intense and effective. And then since President Trump was elected during his first term, that pressure has kind of intensified over time. That combined that with the pressures from the war, actually going back to the 12-day war in June, the popular uprising in which, you know, thousands, potentially tens of thousands, depending on the estimates you look at, were killed, the internet blackout that

8:32followed, and then the most recent war where the estimates of the damage, you know, are you, I think, mostly in the 200 to 300 billion range, this has been devastating. So, it's an economy, which was already weak and under pressure, and the series of wars in popular uprising have intensified that, that's resulted in job losses, heightened inflation, depreciating currency, exploding costs. To the extent that you even more recently, and this was happening in late mid-late 25, it's happening again now, you have even members of the security forces putting out videos saying that, you know, we can't make ends meet and feed our families with these wages that are getting. But in the interest of being united against the US, has this further entrenched the regime? I don't necessarily think so, right? It's economic shocks, ultimately, over time reduced the resilience. Actually, if you look at, on a trend line over the last decade, over the last few years, you can start to see some of the signs of state failure, but, you know, a state can fail for years, maybe even decades, right? Just look at Cuba, look at North Korea, look at Venezuela.

9:37So, I wouldn't say it necessarily has entrenched the regime. Certainly, the regime is weaker, but the society is also kind of weakened, and the society absent either defections from within the regime. It's not really in a position to bring about change. So, the regime is, I think, as entrenched as it was before, but it's both the society and the regime are kind of steadily becoming weaker over time. Parzan, thank you for this. Thank you very much for having me on. Parzan Sabet is an Iran analyst at the Geneva Graduate Institute. We reached him in Geneva. It's 70 meters of embroidered cloth that relates the story of England's greatest defeat, and yet British people just love it. The biotapistry depicts the Norman Conquest of England in 1066, culminating in the epic battle of Hastings. Despite its age, it's still sparking conversation and debate today. Just recently, for instance, two scholars had a fierce battle over how many

10:40penises are on it, 93 or 94. As far as we know, that debate is ongoing, calling with your answer. Tomorrow, the British public will be able to count the penises themselves when an exhibition of the biotapistry opens at the British Museum hasn't been on British soil in almost a thousand years, and tickets have been sold out for months. Leoni Hicks is a medieval studies professor at Cantiburi Christchurch University. We reached her in Cantiburi. Professor, what is it like to see this tapestry up close and in person? It's always very exciting. It doesn't matter how many times you've seen it, but to see it close up, displayed in its full length for the first time in possibly, since it was made, is very, very exciting because you can get quite close through the glass, obviously, and see quite a lot of detail. How many times have you been able to get close to it?

11:40Four or five. Does it still give you goosebumps on the fourth or fifth time? Absolutely. Especially seeing it in its full length. Lodgically, we all know it's very long. It's 70 metres, but until you see something laid out in 70 metres, it's very hard to visualize just how long it is. You've called the tapestry, the 58 scenes on it, quote, very memeable. Unquote, what do you mean? Yes. Because of the nature of it, it's almost like a comic strip, and many people have compared it to a comic strip. It's quite stylized, so it means that you can take that style, and if you like, make a pastiche of the tapestry to comment on, comment, and to fares, so it's used in political cartoons, for example. There's a very famous Star Wars version of the biotapestry

12:41with Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker, so it makes it very adaptable. What are the parts that each time you find yourself being drawn to and pouring over? I really love the scene of Westminster Abbey, and then following that, we have Edward's funeral in his deathbed, and over the Abbey, just as a little chap is put in the final touches, put in the weather vein on the roof. We have the hand of God coming out of a cloud at the top, and blessed in the Abbey. So that's one of the bits that I really like. Another bit is a little bit more humorous. I think people can be surprised sometimes to discover that there is humor in the tapestry because it depicts a very violent event, but once the Normans have landed, they start building a castle at Hastings, and there are two men facing each other, holding spades, walking each other over the head with them. So you do think it was going on there.

13:42And then the final thing that I look for is the woman fleeing the burning house with her child, because I think that really is a very poignant scene. It shows that whoever was designing this was actually thinking about the experience of conquest. It isn't just a triumphalist narrative. It's actually thinking about the effect on the people in the south of England when the Normans landed. Was that the message or part of the message? You think that the creator of this tapestry was trying to send? Yes, I think there is an element of saying, this is an absolutely terrible thing. It doesn't shy away from the horrors of war, particularly as we get towards the end. You can not only is it sort of very graphic in its depiction of horses and men falling, but we also seen utilitated bodies and bodies being stripped in the margin. And so it might be a way of trying to sort of bring people together and say, well, yes, this is terrible. So it's, yes, it

14:51commemorates a Norman victory, but it also, if you like, acts as a memorial perhaps to the fallen. I mean, it's so delicate, valuable, yes, clearly, to transport it, to from France to England, the challenges. Well, what do you know about how they managed to do that safely? They're experts at it certainly, but this is very delicate. It was quite an amazing feat. So the entire team, by carefully slid the tapestry out of its case, the old case in a U-shape on a rail, which then they sort of on the rail, the rail would sort of fold around sort of concertinaing like a sneaky cue. And it was packed into a t-chest. So bring it over to, well, I say t-chest, very, very big grand teacher. I was going to say it. Then it was packed into a special traveling case and brought over very secretly. Nobody knew

15:55what day it was, that it was coming except, you know, the people involved. So it was brought overnight through the tunnel, through the channel tunnel, and taken under police escort to the British Museum, where it was unloaded at three o'clock in the morning. To get it into the case, the team sort of did the thing and reverse. So unconciting it to the tapestry on its rail. Gently, sliding here, centimeter by centimeter, and then attached it to the display case table, if you like, the shelf that it's on. And then the whole thing tilted backwards. So the tapestry was lying flat, which means it wasn't handled that much. It was on this infrastructure that allowed it to be taken off, display transported a book back on display with minimal handling. And that's really very important because it's nearly a thousand years old. Is it going to be mandatory for your students to visit

16:58it and see it up close? I hope to take my students, but we have to queue up for tickets like everybody else. So we'll say fingers crossed, we'll be able to get there in the spring. Professor, a pleasure. Thank you for this. Thank you very much. Leoni Hicks is a medieval studies professor at Cantiburi Christchurch University. We reached during Cantiburi. Of all the majestic, mysterious planets in our solar system, Mercury is the puniest. Unless you can't Pluto, which cruially we do not, but that doesn't mean it's not worth exploring. Mercury, I mean, and all its puny glory. And now a year's long effort is closer than ever to giving us a better picture of the little planet closest to our sun. Last week, the Beppi Colombo spacecraft detached from a larger mothership and entered the home stretch on a mission to Mercury. And as it

17:59prepares to map that relatively small marble, scientists are preparing to unravel its hidden secrets after waiting patiently for nearly a decade. Geraint Jones is with the European Space Agency. He's the lead project scientist on the Beppi Colombo mission. We reached him in Leiden, Netherlands. Geraint, if we could give our listeners a bit of perspective on this. And when we're talking about the entire journey, Beppi Colombo has been on. Where is it right now? How far away from its final stop is it? Well, right now, it's still about 3 million kilometers from Mercury, which is obviously very far to us as humans, but considering the long journey it's had up to now almost 10 billion kilometers. Yeah, it's on the final stretch before reaching the planet later this year. The proximity is a big part of the excitement at this moment, certainly. But when we talk about the mission overall, what else makes this moment so vital? Yeah, so to get to

19:00Mercury is really challenging and to get to Mercury with two orbiters, which is what we're doing, is additionally challenging. So the first mission to go to Mercury was Mariner 10, a NASA mission in the 1970s, and it didn't go into orbit. It just flew past the planet three times and gave us our first views. And then NASA had a mission in the 2010s, which was in orbit around Mercury and told us a great deal about the planet. But we want to build on that and one of the big things that's different about our mission is that we have two spacecraft that will orbit around the planet. They'll both be looping around the planet, one from ESA and one from Japan. And the data we get back from both will give us a huge insight into the planet itself and its surroundings. And we're going to be filling in the gaps that Messenger was unable to fill global map of the whole surface at very high resolutions to see lots of details on the surface, work out what it's made of and what it's inside like the inside the planet and its surroundings as well.

20:07It's already been able to to send some gifts, take some pictures back in January of 2025. What did they reveal? Yeah, an amazing surface. So the cameras that we have been able to operate up to now are just engineering cameras are basically webcams not much better than that. So they just provided black and white pictures of Mercury. But yeah, the amazing views, views that we haven't had previously from other missions and yeah, I wetted our appetite for what's to come. How to even get to this point when we're talking about the closest planet to the Sun, even if Venus is warmer hotter, what went into making sure this trip could be successful, this mission could be successful, given the elements you're dealing with on this planet. Yeah, so operating at Mercury is very hard as well. So obviously we're much closer to the Sun than the Earth is and so we have to

21:07keep our spacecraft cool and the technology that was needed to achieve that was very challenging as well. So the east or a bit of the European orbiter that's covered in thick blankets, multi-layered blankets to keep the the Sun's rays off as much as possible and it also has a radiator to cool itself down. And then our Japanese colleagues, their spacecraft is going to be spinning. So a bit like a a rotisserie chicken, it's going to be rotating all the time. So being warmed on one side and then the side facing away from the Sun is going to cool down. So that's how they're regulating their temperature. So yes, it's an extremely harsh place to be operating spacecraft. Mercury's poles are ice covered. Yeah, so contrary to what most people would expect, the nearest planet to the Sun has ice at the poles. We're 99% sure of this. So we're going to investigate the poles of Mercury

22:09without suite of instruments to try and figure out what's the ice is present. It's probably water ice. It would be good to be able to confirm that if we can. So despite being on a planet which reaches 450 Celsius on the day time at the poles, it's really cold. These craters never see the Sun. And so if you put ice there, it'll just stay there indefinitely. More milestones to come. What is the next one that you're watching for in this mission? Yeah, so after the 80s of crews, we've got several big steps coming up. So last week was separating the transfer stage that got us to this location. And then the two spacecraft are currently still attached to each other, the two orbiters. On November the 21st, they'll both go into orbit around Mercury, still attached to each other. And then we'll lower the orbit to get a bit closer to the planet. And then on December the 9th to the 10th, the two orbiters will separate from each other. So the Japanese orbiter will be in its science orbit,

23:14quite high over Mercury. And then the months after that, the ESA probe will get closer to the planet. And then by April 2027, both spacecraft should be ready to begin the science mission and will begin studying Mercury in earnest. So we have a mission approved to the end of 2029 on the ESA side. So we hope to be going for several more years, but it is a really harsh environment. So we hope the spacecraft will survive that long. Are you naturally a patient person or has this work forced you to be? Yeah, maybe you should ask my wife that question. But yeah, I think from previous missions, yes, in the context of work, yeah, we have to be patient. Space is big and sometimes we take ages to get to our target planets like with Beppie Colombo. Garand, I'm glad we could speak. Thank you. Thank you. It's been a great pleasure. Thanks.

24:15Garand Jones is the lead project scientist for the European Space Agency on the Beppie Colombo mission. We reached him in Leiden, Netherlands. They've got full layout to beds. All of our players have that. Guys, love this trip thing, man. Yeah, it is cool. But it's a big plan. Everybody will be able to get fully extended and layout and be able to get their rest. And if you guys ask me any more questions about it, I'm kind of tired of talking about this. That is Sean McVeigh head coach of the Los Angeles Rams. He does not want to talk about the trip anymore. Unfortunately, the trip goes against everything we think we know about airplanes and sleep, time zones, football, jet lag and life. So reporters really want to talk to him about the trip that he no longer wants to talk about. Tomorrow, the LA Rams will play the San Francisco 49ers in Melbourne, Australia as part of an NFL initiative to build its international profile.

25:20The flight is 15-ish hours. Melbourne is 17 hours ahead of Southern California. So the 49ers flew down last Friday to start adjusting. And on Monday, San Francisco coach Kyle Shanahan told reporters that he was still adjusting. Like I said, we're a little confused with when I look at my clock and it says the time, and then I try to see my family's time. And it says the time, but it says yesterday. I don't even get how that's possible. So I feel like I'm in the future. And then also when we play on our Friday, which I think is the Thursday in the US, we're such creatures of habits. So I call today Tuesday, or no wait, sorry, I call today Wednesday, which is the first day we put in a game plan. But I think it's Monday, however though it's Sunday and the present. So like, I'm going to mess that up all week if you guys ask me. But today is just our first day of the game plan, which is a Wednesday. We'll put in some on a Thursday. Friday is the final part of the game plan. Saturday, we walk there when we play on Sunday, which is a Friday in Australia and a Thursday and on the US. So don't ever make me do that again. And that is why you don't plan anything major after a long flight. You

26:21don't want to have to do anything that requires you to be at your sharpest, such as for example, a game where you have to try to catch a pointy ball while huge men try to smash into your body. This is why people are so fascinated by the LA Rams strategy. They arrived in Melbourne today for the game tomorrow. Rams coach Sean McVeigh and cis his team will just sleep on the plane and the beds that he was talking about as someone who wakes up drooling every 20 seconds every time I try to sleep on a flight. I say good luck with that. But sleep scientists are certainly excited about the game. It's a perfect showcase of two wildly divergent approaches to dealing with a huge time zone change. Which approach will prevail? The one that seems like a good idea or the one that seems like a shockingly terrible idea. We'll find out tomorrow whether the number of touchdowns depends on when you touchdown.

27:24We're going to take a short break now when we return after young hockey players get sick from carbon monoxide poisoning. A parent tells us more needs to be done to keep it safe. And no love lost. We'll talk to a tennis reporter who was in the stadium for last night's epic US Open Quarter Final which didn't wrap until 3.30 in the morning. Stay tuned I'm Neil Cooksall. And I'm Chris Houghton. Hi Steve Patterson here host of the debaters the part stand up part quiz all Canadian comedy competition. This week we're back with a brand new episode to kick off our 21st season. We want to know when it comes to camping which camp are you in tent or RV. This episode really brings the tension when two of Canada's top comedians go head to head on their favorite way to get into the wild. So for an episode that goes off without a trailer hitch tune into the season premiere of the

28:24debaters wherever you get your podcasts. Two years ago a group of 10 and 11 year old hockey players laced up their skates and hit the ice ready to compete. Their parents filled the stands cheering them on and then one by one dozens of boys got sick. They had headaches and nausea and some threw up before long one parent identified the culprit carbon monoxide exposure. Now three of those parents have co-authored an article in the Canadian Medical Association drawing attention to the issue and calling for stronger regulations on carbon monoxide monitoring in hockey arenas. Laurie Lee is a pediatric nurse and one of the co-authors of the article she's in Calgary. Laurie you were getting calls on that day in 2024. What do you remember about what you were learning on those calls? You know what is most striking to me now in thinking back is how easily I along with others dismissed the initial symptoms as you know just a likely viral

29:25illness that we know kids this age get and you know as I started to get the phone calls from parents about headaches and dizziness and nausea you know common things being common I made the same mistake that many parents and healthcare professionals make to assume that it was a virus. And then how quickly the pieces came together once we understood how many kids were sick, how quickly it was spreading and that other teams were also experiencing symptoms. You know what was what was the shift? You know there was the firefighter whose son was also at these games. It's also a co-author of this article as well. What was he thinking that started to change the conversation? Yeah I think for Dan and in our many many conversations about this it was really when he took his son and another child outside we talked about separating the kids thinking this was contagious and noticing that there was a quicker improvement than he would have expected for a viral illness and as a firefighter obviously environmental exposures are a big part

30:29of his day-to-day work and so his mind twigged to could this be carbon monoxide. And then you know we I think we all doubt ourselves in these moments especially for both Dan and I when you're bringing your professional expertise into your personal world and things start to overlap you always worry that you're overreacting and as soon as he mentioned it it all clicked into place in my brain and thought of course why didn't I think of this earlier this absolutely looks like carbon monoxide exposure and once that clicked for you and you start digging into it more I mean what kind of levels are we talking about? Yeah I mean Dan was able to get fire out to the arena. It took some time this is a small town further away from Calgary and it was a weekend but the level that the firefighters carry how Dan explained it to me is you know they have high alert alarms to keep the firefighters safe and as soon as they walked in all the alarms went into high alert so that indicates you know high levels of exposure that require evacuation from the arena.

31:33I think many people listening would think this is this is an arena how was this not detectives or they're not detectors on site? Yeah so that was you know part of the learning curve for us after the fact and a big motivator for myself in leading writing up this article and Dan and Jessica and Tanya in collaborating with me on it was exactly that. There were not carbon monoxide detectors in that rank and we have since learned that there's many ranks that don't have them and that it's not currently required as part of building codes or laws in Canada to have carbon monoxide and other air quality detectors in arenas and that's despite five years ago health Canada publishing guidance that not only should there be air quality measurement but that we should be taking you know actions to improve air quality in arenas. And your piece your article the research says 11 carbon monoxide poisoning incidents one nitrous dioxide poisoning at indoor ice rinks across Canada

32:38in the 10 year period between 2016 and 2026. How does this keep happening? Well I mean that's our question as well you know you're the health agency of Canada has come out saying that this needs to be monitored and we need to be working to prevent these types of exposures happening. This is you know one of our national sports is hockey many children in Canada spend a huge amount of time in arenas and and right now we don't know how much exposure is happening to kids in arenas over time and that's really worrisome for me especially because my own son you know has been playing hockey since he could walk love that and we he spent a lot of time in an arena. So this research might help bring bring about the kind of change and that you are pushing for you and other parents are pushing for. But what should parents do now because I'm thinking other teams or other tournaments may have a medical liaison they may not have

33:39a firefighter parent you know what are they to do? Yeah I mean I think little things like asking your arena is there carbon monoxide detector here and encouraging your local arenas to invest in that technology? How are the children who were there that day in 2024 doing now? Yeah I mean medically they've all recovered fully. You know thankfully we were able to reach everybody the kids who had higher levels so of the four hockey teams which would represent you know around 60 children just over 20 had high enough levels several hours later to still need treatment at an emergency department. They've all recovered fully and thankfully none of them had to be admitted to hospital but the long lasting effects of the you know psychological fear associated with that are definitely still present. Jessica Marshall one of the co-authors on the paper talked about person insists on traveling with a carbon monoxide detector himself so that he always has

34:42that peace of mind whenever he enters an arena and you know these are kids that love to play hockey and and unfortunately this is something that pops into their minds entering a new unknown arena and that that scary memory of that being associated with the sport they love in a recreational activity is going to be with them for their lives I'm sure. Laurie I appreciate this thank you no problem. That was Laurie Lee a pediatric nurse and co-author of CMAJ article we reached during Calgary Alberta. Very early this morning history was made at the US Open the men's quarter final between Ben Shelton and Carlos Alcaraz started a little after 11 pm it did not finish until 330 in the morning 333 to be precise that's four hours and 28 minutes of tennis and it is the latest

35:42finishing match in US Open history here's what Arthur Ashe Stadium sounded like during the final point Ben Shelton wins the latest battle in US Open history deflones Alcaraz and there will be an American man from the championship match here on Sunday. American Ben Shelton defeating US Open defending champion Carlos Alcaraz from Spain early this morning. Tennis writer Ben Rothen Berg was there for the whole match we reached him in New York City shortly after he woke up. Ben were you just happy for Ben Shelton or for yourself that the match was finally over? Both I mean I think we knew the match was going to end at some point it's just a question of how long it takes to get to this ending point yesterday at the US Open they just sort of piled up and we got this backup into going until 333 am it's like you know I've been you know many long NHL over time

36:44games and such too those at least have the sort of highest stress all the most exciting part when it's you know sudden death and anyone can win suddenly but for the men to tennis it takes a long time to get there but once you're there you do enjoy it blearly as you can at 330 am after the match Shelton said quote I'm tired it was a war unquote it was close there's a reason this match went five sets how would you describe the effort from these players? Yeah Shelton I think had one of best matches this career without a doubt he hadn't really broken through by beating one of the very top guys at a grandstand tournament before this and this was him going toe to toe with Alcharez and prevailing in the end effort and this incredibly long match there were very many ups and downs and ebbs and flows in this match Alcharez had not played a tournament in more than four and a half months before coming to US Open he had a wrist injury so he was certainly undercooked and at one point in this match lost nine games in a row so the match was patchy in qualities at times for sure but when it was good it could be really good there definitely a really good highlight reel at

37:46least it came out of this match some filler in between but some really high highs and I do remember and morning to remember for all involved it can be certainly tiring for everyone involved you know even in the stands as people are sitting and sitting there but it can be electric as well what was the vibe like? Yeah people who were there were committed certainly it was only probably about one third full I would estimate at the end probably only about seven thousand eight thousand people are so in in the same seats about twenty four thousand which is a lot of people to be gathered anywhere at 3.30 a.m. anywhere so people who were there were very committed to the cause but certainly lots of people you know left for various reasons just weren't bargaining for this kind of night it had to work in the morning had normal functional lives to attend to that didn't allow for this incredibly disruptive event of going to this event and obviously you know we talk about the end time of 3.33a but then still you have to get home and like navigating uh New York City you know subways or whatever else you're using it three four or five a.m. it's not always a pleasant experience I say it's someone who's done that many times in the last two weeks waiting on various subway platforms in the middle

38:50of the night at Grand Central um it doesn't always feel uh safer or sane to be to be doing this and the cleanup staff have worked to do as well that's right yeah then I saw a few of them starting to work already before the match had started I don't know when their shift exactly started but you could see up in sort of the sweet level a lot of the sweets had been emptied out or had had emptied out by the uh by the end of the fourth set at least and there were some people mopping as the as the action the first set was getting started below so you know the world turns it goes on you could hear you know loud trucks beeping as they backed up into loading docs the tournament you know as the first set was going on there was you know the city does the New York City famously never sleeps and in Somniac tennis tournament was experiencing a lot of that yeah you still had work to do after three thirty three what were the post-match interviews like yeah so the players both came and did their post-match interviews probably around three fifty three fifty five uh they both did it for whatever reason in the hallway outside the locker room and there were still a lot of reporters there are still probably out estimate 40 to 50 media people there crammed into this not very big hallway

39:54and it was you know what I'm sorry oh I will remember yeah it was not it was an unpleasant people are not they have been quite a while over there and it was it was a it was a it was a very human experience in that way and uh yeah it was it was strange and and the players you know had a lot of adrenaline for sure they were they didn't look super tired they were both very excited what they'd done even ackres who lost he wasn't crushed by it it didn't seem like this was his first tournament again more than four and a half months and so he he seemed to have some perspective and he's generally a relatively happy camper who's nice to have around and it was obviously based when events career uh so the more curious to have both the holding up now as we approach uh you know more than 12 hours later you you you tweeted or one of the things you posted on social media one must imagine cysophus sleepy uh unquote you also said the matches were great the tournament needs and overdue fix and quote you've covered this tournament a lot over the years what needs to change at the us open i think bluntly the tournament and the other grand slams but maybe this one most of

40:57all is in denial about the sex of best of five matches for the men i think these things are far too unwieldy there's far too big of variance in the length times and matches which makes it really difficult for scheduling i mean because a short best of five match can go two hours maybe even a little bit less but a long one can can broach five hours and i think we've had one that was almost five and a half uh this tournament as well and so you can't plan the schedule around things that are are that long you know you can't imagine like making a movie theater where you hadn't if the movie could suddenly last twice as long or three times as long if you're planning to use tennis fans are gonna let go of five set grand slams i mean i remember just recently the the philix oj adesim jokovic match at winble i mean incredible it wasn't incredible for sure i don't know how many people sat down and watched the entire thing for all five hours i mean i do i do i do okay well it's good and there are people for sure who love tennis who would do that who do do that but i do think it's it's rough for for bench lton you know in a lot of ways to have this star moment of his career and have it happen while everyone in america and north america was pretty much asleep and i think

42:00you know if you if you said oh bench lton we'll get the biggest win of his career and unfortunately everyone in america will be asleep you would assume it happened in australia you know it's some bad time zone where america naturally wouldn't be asleep but this is the us open failing to put the biggest match the tournament probably this is going to be the biggest match the tournament i think in a lot of ways you know the defending champion losing to the america number one and have it be at a time where almost no one was a way to see it i think does a disservice to the players as a disservice to fans it's dysfunctional there's not a there's not a normal sport that has climactic moments at you know three a.m well hopefully more sleep for you but also more elite tennis coming up thank you in the finals then i appreciate this thank you thank you ben rothan berg is a tennis writer for the substack bounces we reached him in new york city long before this year's fifa world cup there were concerns about the football federation's

43:02president jianny and fintino now less than two months after the tournament ended those concerns are as loud as ever as of this week more than a hundred thousand people have signed on to a complaint alleging that mr. infintino has repeatedly breached fifa's code of ethics it's an updated version of a complaint first filed by the advocacy group fair square late last year which accused the fifa president of violating rules around political neutrality particularly when it comes to his relationship with u.s president donald trump nick magan is the director of fair square and we reached him in niece france nick one of your goals here was to submit the largest complaint fifa has ever received do you think you've succeeded yeah i think we have you know um we're 103 000 people have signed it um typically ethics complaints uh to fifa would be signed by one person or an organization but what we managed to do is use the mechanism to allow people to register widespread public dissent and frustration with how without fifa is being run and with the conduct of infintino personally so yeah i'm very pleased with the result

44:08fifa uh certainly controversy questions they've been around for a long time even before infintino but you submitted an initial complaint back in december to fifa's ethics committee what is it about his leadership what was it at that time that that pushed you to large that complaint so so infintino has been running fifa very badly almost since he became the president in 2016 but beginning in 2025 his relationship with president trump began to become increasingly problematic he started to make statements in clear support of president trump now he's not allowed to do that it's a clear violation of the fifa code of ethics on political neutrality which is therefore very good reason um and so when we submitted that first complaint in december it was all about let's go neutrality um the the follow up complaint has really charted the development of the relationship uh and includes things like the his role in the overturning of the red card of the united states team player father and balligan and then his attempts to sell off the world cup

45:10commercial rights to to trump adjacent private equity and this is given us a much bigger picture of what he's been doing it's brought in violations like the jitter of loyalty to fifa and probably most obviously serious abuse of presidential power um so taken as a whole it's a pretty compelling piece of evidence we think and gives very clear grounds for him to be um to be banned from football related activity back in december after that initial complaint that you lodged you did not get a formal response from the ethics committee so even with this this very large number of people signing on do you think you're going to get a response let alone a change or some sort of action I think what you what you get is an acknowledgement but the acknowledgement basically says we've got this complaint but we're under no obligation to provide you with any more information on it um I think I think there's a possibility that they will act but only if they are act forced to act by people within the football community and I think that's probably unlikely but what we're doing with this complaint is we're testing fifa's accountability mechanisms and really laying down the gauntlet to

46:13this independent committee you know are you capable of holding your senior officials accountable and if they're not then that sends a very powerful message I think to the policymakers who we actually want and need to step in and actually regulate this organization we did reach out of course to fifa for comment we've not heard back as we you and I have this conversation but in a statement first published last month or I'll quote those who do not have the sport of fifa's member associations should not seek to achieve through allegation insinuation or misinformation what they cannot achieve through fifa's established democratic processes. Unquote should those associations be leading this kind of complaint? They absolutely should and it's a good question to put to them why are you not filing complaints like this a lot of them are really unhappy about how the organizations is run a lot of them have said they don't support in fentino so where are they? why are they not using fifa's mechanisms to protest about its conduct? So there's a lot of noise

47:14from some member associations about it but a striking hesitancy to actually invoke the rule book. Why do you think that is because we certainly saw a very swift clear and ultimately successful outcry you know when when the proposal to self commercial interest to private investors I mean it was so fast and very clear why don't you think you're seeing that you know around the rest of his leadership? Yeah it's a really good question I mean we can only speculate right I mean one theory could be it's that because they don't think the ethics committee is independent and they don't think it's going to hold them accountable that's certainly plausible but another one and a more troubling one is that the member associations and the big confederations like uf i and concord they don't want to invoke the rule book less that rule book then be invoked against them because rule breaking within the system is quite rife it's not just fifa and it's not just infantino so that could be another possible reason why. If you don't get an investigation of this

48:16complaint from fifa's ethics committee then what does a win look like? Well I think yeah to some extent I think what's happened in the last few months is the extent of the misgovernance has been laid bare and I think a lot of people are now aware of the problems and how they are fixed. So that's been a positive thing I think it's going to be a long-term battle but I think we're beginning to see the type of political interest and the type of political scrutiny that could ultimately lead to the type of reform that we need. As I say I think that'll take a very long time public support is essential to I mean I will say that and one thing I should also say is the complaint is still open if people want to add their names to that if people are frustrated you can go to rebootfifa.com add your name there but yeah like I say I think it's going to be a long battle but ultimately I think things could be in motion that sparkly end for this version of fifa. We spoke with a veteran football soccer reporter covered many world cups you know ahead of the world cup and we talked about all the questions and concerns leading up and then you know he did

49:19acknowledge once the games get started things may shift people might have a great time and we did see that kind of a shift what does it do to the love of the sport from where you sit? Yeah I mean I think football is part of our collective heritage and people love it so much and the reason people are so frustrated is because they see it being abused in this way people are always going to return to it right it's always going to be a great spectacle and you're always going to generate a lot of money from the sport but I think there is a huge and potentially a significant group of people whose love for it is slowly being eroded and who are desperate for you know the type of reform that we want to get it back in a form that we that we recognize. Nick I'm glad we could speak thanks for this. Pleasure you know thanks for having me on I appreciate it. Nick McGuin is the director of the advocacy group fair square we reached him in Nice France.

50:22They're scrappy omnivorous and cute their hands are tiny their eyes seem huge and they weigh a mere 2.7 kilos the pygmy raccoon is the smaller cousin of the mainland raccoon it's native to the Mexican island of Cosumel where at one time you would have seen lots of them scurrying around on the beach being adorable but today there are only about 200 of them left the pygmy raccoon has been driven to the brink of extinction by tourism urban development and habitat laws it's now critically endangered conservationists are working to save the little creatures and as part of that effort one researcher recently captured a surprising glimpse into their hidden lives during a two-month field study the results of which are published in the journal wild master student Nessie O'Neal witnessed some very peculiar behavior firsthand we reached Miss O'Neal in Knoxville Tennessee. Nessie what exactly did you see these pygmy raccoons doing? I actually saw one of the juveniles go into a trash can and dig through and pull out a rather long receipt and she brought the receipt

51:28back to a stainless steel water bowl that one of the staff members had put out for her and began to dunk it in the water like a raccoon might dunk their food but instead of trying to put it in her mouth thankfully she started to roll it between her hands and shape it into a bowl and then she would roll it in the sand it may be dump it back in the water a little bit and then go back to the sand and work on shaping it and after she got it to how she wanted it she began to play with it like a cat with a little you know mouse toy and she would bat it between her two paws and her sister would get involved and I actually saw this happen on several different occasions and interestingly enough her sister learned how to do this behavior too she would watch and practice alongside her and yeah it's so it's not a one-off and multiple raccoons as you said there's learning involved it appears what are you doing and saying when you see this happening I was so shocked to see that raccoons have the capability to transform objects into something to play with we know that raccoons

52:35are very playful animals but up until now we have not seen anything like this in raccoons or related species of them actually taking materials and transforming them into their own toys so I was just so amazed to learn that raccoons are even smarter than we thought because we know that they're smart but it seems that they are even more intelligent you know cities that that where people are familiar with what raccoons are able to do certainly can tell you that even if they hate them they have to acknowledge that they certainly are clever these are listeners heard a little bit about you know the size difference and certainly we get from that we can get a sense of what they are kind of like from their name pick me raccoons but they are found only on Cosmow and what are the other ways they're different from the raccoons we're used to seeing in you know the United States or Canada. Yeah so pick me raccoons are a completely separate species than the common raccoons

53:37that you might find in your own backyards or in your cities and their bodies are built differently so they have much longer limbs that help them navigate through the mangrove forests that they like to call home and to reach through those arrow roots to crab crabs and as you were mentioning you know they were in the in the garbage you assume they were going to eat what they were taking out of it do they you know they're known as trash bandas here obviously are they they're also eating what they scavenged as well that receipt was was a rarity well what's interesting is that at this specific beach club there are two different trash cans one is for the organic waste so you know food waste and the other is for synthetic so paper and plastic and that sort of thing now the mother raccoon taught her children how to find tortilla chips in the trash can which trash can to go to when the not enough tourists or staff are feeding them so they they know where to go and to see them choose to go into this synthetic waste band or waste basket seemed very deliberate

54:42because that was not normally a trash can that they go into it's you know seeing them create objects just generally in the animal world create create these objects just for play is is still quite rare so what convinced you that that is likely what you were witnessing um so my advisor uh Dr. Michelle Zodlowski is an anthrozoologist at Miami University and she does a lot of research with elephants and elephants are very very intelligent animals they are known to be quite playful and share and social learning so when I saw this video my first thought was you know I took the video but whenever I saw this behavior my first thought was oh my gosh this is adorable and it's so interesting that they are transforming this waste into something to play with but when I showed it to Michelle she was even more excited than I was she was like nessie this is this is very important do not post this on social media because we need to write a paper about this and she was looking

55:43at it more from a standpoint of animal behavior and learning just as a whole that is great advice from from your advisor sounds like you have a very good one but now that it is out in the world what kind of reaction have you been getting um people have been very very positive about it uh unfortunately there are a lot of people who you know I see in the social media comments sections they're like oh this just means that they want to become domesticated and you know it would help them if we made them our pets and that whole domestication study was not what people think it is raccoons are not becoming domesticated and I wish that people more acknowledge that these raccoons are critically endangered they are going extinct and they are going extinct because of humans so we really need to you know change our behaviors and find ways to help them and keep them around on this planet I did interview a man maybe last season or the season before on on our show in the US who has domesticated the raccoons that were coming to his backyard not these

56:48endangered ones but I hear what you're saying about people thinking that they're so clever this is this is what should be done shouldn't what can be done to to save them to shore up their population yeah so first off people need to stop feeding them stop feeding them tortilla chips stop offering them margaritas stop supporting resorts and beach clubs that are destroying their homes and a lot of the people who are going and visiting these resorts and beach clubs and a lot of the owners of these resorts and beach clubs they're not Mexican they're not from Mexico they're not from Cosimo so they're just they're taking these species from the Mexican people and it's it's quite unfair in order to entertain Americans I'm glad we could speak Nessie thank you for this yeah you're welcome that was Nessie O'Neal a master student and co-author of a new study of pygmy raccoons published in wild we reached her in Knoxville Tennessee

57:52you've been listening to the as it happens podcast our show can be heard Monday to Friday on cbc radio one after your world tonight and you can of course also listen to our show online at cbc.ca slash a i h or on the cbc. listen up or of course wherever you get your podcasts I'm Niko Ksoll and I'm Chris Houghton for more cbc podcasts go to cbc.ca slash podcasts