Indeed Desperation & Vibe-Coder Rise

0:00Shall we play a game? Hey Chad, did you know company career sites are the best channel for quality applicants? You know the ones who actually get hired? Oh yeah, especially compared to job boards. I just can't understand why more companies aren't maximizing their own career sites, especially when budgets are being cut. Dude, Compass gets it and they're not small potatoes. Being the world's largest food service company who hires over 150,000 people every year. And adding Dolly into their career site increased their conversion rate by 4x. That's right, same traffic with four times more high quality applicants. Wait, so Compass added Dolly, and suddenly started getting four times more quality applicants without increasing traffic? Yep, that let them finally break the enlist cycle of job board spend. And Dolly just works without having to do work. It's like my dream come true. It's plug and play with any career site, no setup, no training, no ongoing management. And get this, it goes live within days.

1:00Say what? And Dolly is now offering a free 30-day pilot. Say what? Yeah, that's right. Dolly believes they can double your career sites conversion rate in just 30 days. Just head on out to dolly.co. That's d-a-l-i-a.co to learn more. If you want a solution to the quality problem, this is your best move. A Chromy commercial? Son of a bitch. Cool. Okay, my shout out this week is to Travis Kalanik, if I pronounce it correctly. Kalanik, Kalanik, Kalanik, Kalanik. Kalanik. Yeah, that's that's what I'm getting next year, according to that. Kalanik. And that's Isom's newest product, the high Kalanik. It was, it was my shout out. Welcome to the healthcare podcast. A lot of Mexico's. Joel's Kalanik. But not. I'm the best there is, playing simple. I mean, I wake up in the morning, I piss excellence. Hide your kids. Lock the doors.

2:00You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where hers. Complete with breaking news, broad opinion, and loads of stuff. Bob a lot of boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and cheese podcast. Oh, yeah. The tide is high, but we're holding on. Hey kids, it's the Chad and cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel, honored to take Cuba Cheesman. And this is Chad. Dad is got a new car, so watch. And I'm leaving. I really should be doing something else right now. You have nothing better to do than this. On this episode of HR's most dangerous podcast, indeed is desperate. Service now is doom saying, and Jack and Jill, well, well, they went up a hill. Didn't they guys? Let's do this. Dude, it turns out that Winston, smart recruiters,

3:02first AI hiring sidekick is taking all the grunt work out of recruiters day. Things like candidate screening, scheduling, all the admin garbage no one actually wants to touch, Winston can do it all. Man, you know I'm a fan of using new tech that takes the boring, repetitive crap out of our recruiters day, and allows them to have more time to connect with hiring managers and candidates. Yep, Winston's doing the heavy lifting while recruiters kick back and do the actual hiring stuff, you know, like talking to people. I really dig that smart recruiters is evolving out of the legacy ATS model and embracing cleaner processes using AI. With most ATS providers, it's like, hey, 2003 called, and it wants its 30 minute application process back. No doubt. It sounds like Rebecca and the team are using Winston to push smart recruiters into the future while the ATS vendors are basically on an AOL dial-up modem with a dashboard.

4:03The smart recruiters Winston does the grind and the recruiters get the glory. For more information on superhuman hiring with Winston, visit smartrecruiters.com that smartrecruiters.com. Start using Winston today or I guess you can stick with Now we return you to our right-getter schedule program in progress. Back in my place, God. Tell us your recording after St. Patrick's Day without telling me you're recording after St. Patrick's Day. I can see it's 9 a.m. where I am and I'm particularly looking rough. I can see your sweating guys look a little better and leave and always looks fantastic. So I know, I know, Joe. I know. I believe it's like, oh, yesterday was St. Patrick's Day. I had no idea. Yeah, he's a redhead. I mean, you kind of like you have to have some kind of Irish connection. Are your kids redheads? No, no, no. And they come to make fun of me. If you're a ginger, you're a ginger. I'm so happy.

5:03I'm not a ginger, etc. Yeah, that's awesome. Ginger dad. Ginger dad. So on your is it your mom or dad? Like who has the red hair on your parents' head? It's in my dad's that's family. And even my dad, I mean, someone has, I'm sure, but I probably don't know him. Some bastard father. And I was visiting from Ireland or Scotland back in the day. No, in that case, I would be the bastard now. Nice. Nice. So Chad, Chad, you got a car. You got some wheels there. And yeah, that's fun. For the very first time, I think in both of our lives, Julie and I have focused on getting a not practical car. So she wanted a convertible. She wanted something small. I mean, obviously we live in the air, Algarvers, Sunshine, most of the time, something where we could let our hair down. That's true, kids. That's good. She did a lot of research. And I said, this is the baby. You go get what you want. I'm the practical guy that I'm going to,

6:04I'm going to get some kind of like SUV or some shit like that. One of the smaller like European SUVs. And she chose not the Range Rover. She chose a Mini Cooper. So a Mini Cooper, John Cooper Works Edition is used. But not a lot of miles. And yeah, so we'll get it delivered tomorrow, which was interesting because here, you can't just drive a car off the lot in Portugal. You can't go give them cash and drive the car off. They have to do maintenance, inspection, all this stuff, even after they've done it before. And then they deliver it to you at your place. And then you have to show proof of insurance before you can actually receive delivery. So it's really cool. I mean, really cool process. That's what we Americans call big government. So you have a Mini Cooper. What's gas prices like in Portugal these days? $2.00 a liter or two euros a liter. And euros are more than dollars.

7:05Absolutely. And it's like four liters of gallon. Well, you're welcome. You're welcome. How is how's the war viewed there in Europe? Ungrateful NATO countries that you are. What's the vibe there in Europe? You can't keep taxing us. And you can't keep telling us that we're awful. And then expecting us to come send some ships to liberate the street of what's it called? No, who's that's the world? Well, we don't play that way now. What John Stuart said. War, the excuse we give Americans to learn geography. Because otherwise, Americans have no idea. Straight to the foreman. Is that a club? Yeah. So it's interesting. Because I mean, I've been here. We've been back and forth. Living here in Portugal for about four years now. And usually Portuguese, they don't really ask much about Trump. I'm going to kind of chill, kind of relax. Everybody else does. The Dutch, the Germans.

8:06I mean, everybody's like, what do you think about Trump? This is the first time I have actually had Portuguese who had just met. Usually, you know, I've known Portuguese for a while for a few years. Then we might have that discussion. But Portuguese that I just met, they just automatically. What do you think of this Trump thing, you know? And so I mean, when you have a very laid back society who kind of like sits back and watches and waits and they're patient and they're starting not to be as patient, that says something. Yeah. Not to mention it's obviously affecting our gas prices. Do you feel like as an American, maybe Portugal's everyone, but that people look at you differently when they find out you're American because of the whole Trump administration? Well, they, for the most part, think that I'm here because I hate to fuck her in the first place. So they automatically think you're one of us, right? You're one, can we hate that asshole too? So it's, it's, it's almost like a symbiotic kind of like connection right out of the gate. How about Belgium leaving? You guys hate everybody. I see the Americans even more now. Just a Dutch. I mean, normally we just talk about about the French.

9:07Maybe the Germans, that's the history. We used to like the Americans, actually, but those days are gone now. I think it will take some time to fix things. Oh yeah, I'm a little worried to come to Europe. I mean, not that I'm going to get shot or stabbed or something, but just dirty looks, you know, somebody spitting in my, in my logger. Yeah, but that's nothing new, I mean. That's fantastic. You're so welcome, Joel. Yeah, you'll, you'll, you'll still take my money, though. Yeah, that's good. You'll still take my money. Well, from America, guys, it's a fucked up situation. Where most of us aren't happy about what's going on. Yeah. Not even, not even a Republican sireps. Even Republicans mostly are. Which is well, so there's a split in mega. Trump ran on no more wars, no more forever, shit, no more Bush, no more Neocon, and psych were back at war. So there's for certain a split in some of the Republican party. But if you look at polls, Republicans are 80% in favor of this. Like 3% of Democrats, but then you have the independence,

10:10which are largely like 60, 70% anti what's going on. And when are those midterms? November, November. That will be interesting. Yeah, it will be interesting. And if they haven't wrapped this sucker up by then, it's going to be really, really bad. He's trying this whole Save America now act, which is did more of a rigging of the election. So we'll see how that goes. Yeah, and Cuba, Cuba's messed up. That will give us like straight out of the 19th century. We're just taking them. I'll be I mean, I'm honored to take your country. Thank you. Cuba doing wrong these days. I mean, there may be 50 years ago, we've put in some missiles from Russia. They're dirty and castroloven communists. It's not only means nothing anymore, even sovereign means. I mean, it's disgusting. Sorry. No, the whole Venezuela thing I thought was kind of on the limits, but he actually, it was a nice operation from a movie. Clearly, the Iranians would be Venezuela, 2.0. Yeah, and Cuba's going to score. Not even close. Yeah, turns out, turns out China doesn't like it if you take

11:11two of their biggest oil resources away from them. Well, yeah, we don't need you. Europe, please help us, which is good news is I'm sure this is the last time we'll talk about it on the show. Yeah, oh, let me put this out there, though. Epstein files. Epstein files. Go ahead, go ahead. Let's get the shot out. Is it time for shout outs? OK, so I want a shout out. I wasn't on last week's show. I was listening to last week's show. And I want to give that shout out to JTNU going head to head last week for over the juice box over juice box. Go ahead and run that tape real quick. I've seen this movie twice at least. It doesn't end well for juice box. And it's not going to end well prediction for their investors. This is going to crash and burn. It may take a while, but there's no future in this company. Do you remember this company called MySpace? Do you remember how everybody thought MySpace will be around forever and it'll be the only platform?

12:12This is the very real problem LinkedIn has right now. LinkedIn is the only one of its type where everybody's sitting on there. You know who can't stand LinkedIn? The younger generation. They're not going anywhere else. Yes, they're not going to boom band. They're not going to poly work. But I can be on social or be anywhere and share what I know and what I do. And AI is now sophisticated enough to go out there. It is going to find me and I'm not on LinkedIn. And by the way, I'm not putting on LinkedIn what I'm putting in other places. So do they have a huge road ahead of them? Absolutely. These guys aren't the next LinkedIn. They're the next people finder. So I want to give you both a shout out for hitting both sides of this arguments. But I tend to lean heavily toward their toast side. But you forgot one very big aspect of the arguments. The aspect is the Fair Credit Reporting Act. So Fickra, eightfold is currently getting sued for candidate profile enrichment, which juice box also does,

13:13which means they're adding unverified information to a candidate's profile without getting the candidate consent. So if the court's rule against eightfold, they're literally creating a credit port report. And juice box is dead on arrival, right? So shout out to trying to hit every angle of this. It is so hard these days. But I love watching you and JT going back and forth on that one. Yeah. Liven, do you have a side on the death of the resume argument? No, not really. I think it's going to stay alive for quite some time. But we'll see, we'll see. Not have been, they've been protecting the death of the resume for since the Internet came along, I think. It's still there. It's always great when three old white guys can agree on something. Get off my line. You're no good. I want to say what the courts have to say. After that, it's a done fucking deal. Yeah. By the way, the work day trial is moving forward.

14:13The mobile work day, not a topic, but yeah, we'll be watching that one as well. My shout out goes to our boy, Alexander Chukovsky. A couple of things with him. Again, when the old guys get together, we usually talk about like, where are the new voices? Where are the kids? Why aren't they speaking up and talking about this shit? And Alexander, my first love for you is that you're one of those younger guys. It's kind of talking about the stuff that I'm too tired to sort of research and talk about. And the second part of the shout out is he had a great post recently about I guess the integration tools, the ATS is the API connector business being under siege by AI. And Chad, I know you and I leave and you work with a lot of startups. One of the first advice that we give them is like integrate with as many ATSs and platforms as possible. And most of them end up going to merge. And some of the others combo just got a ton of money

15:15to solve this problem, to get their integrations into these ATSs. Alexander has a great post saying that vibe coding and just basically having the tools through natural language to code these things is coming, basically making the connector tools irrelevant or much less valuable than they were before. He talks about companies like Merge and JobSync, which are starting to pivot away from sort of that core business. The integration side of things. I think we're seeing this play out in some of the vendors. We talked about textio, becoming lava layer, job case, recently launching AI tools, etc. So it's going to be interesting as more and more of these connector companies pivot. What do they do outside of that? And will this vibe coding integration thing really take off? But Tats off to Alexander for doing really good work, doing some of the digging that I'm too old and tired to do anymore.

16:15And I love it, man. Keep it up. Keep it up. I appreciate you. Noise. When I spoke to Rebecca and Shiran from Smart Recredors, that they now have the backing of SAP, right? And they had 120 engineers actually pushed over from success factors to Smart Recredors. And using some of those engineers, they're actually looking at building AI versions of those connectors themselves. And that's not just for Smart Recredors, right? And the front end of the funnel side of the house. That's all the way down through the business applications of SAP. That's fucking big. So I agree with what Alexander has to say, but you're also, I think, going to see some of these bigger ecosystems and build their own and or acquire and then start to expand. Yeah, and not even the large ones. I think, you know, you and I advise some companies that they're putting features in much more quickly than they used to

17:18because they can easily vibe code these things in. So I think you're probably seeing a lot of platforms start to put in integration tools and just like, hey, push this button and get your stuff on all the ATSs and other platforms. So yeah, interesting times we live in. Interesting times. Well, and think about, think about uptime, right? If it takes three weeks or six weeks or whatever it takes to actually get an organization integrated into your system, one of the reasons why companies don't change applicant tracking systems or any type of core platforms is because of the time it takes to be able to get their data mapped over to get all this shit integrated into a system. If you can take that from let's say six months to three weeks, oh, fuck yeah, the change, the cost of change goes down dramatically. And then all of those platforms were just old and cranky and they're like, ah, you got to stay with us because the cost of change is too much. That goes away. Absolutely. The only reason why we don't change is because it's just such a hassle to change. You take that reason away, that excuse away.

18:19And then next thing, you know, you're hopping, you're hopping girlfriends like G'smen in high school. Easy now. Easy now. Easy now. Yeah, you're using the word girl. Yeah, pretty, pretty good. And I do think the HR tool or the tools for HR are going to be much more susceptible to getting hurt because let's agree, no one in HR TA is going to be like vibe coding integrations and shit, but like start up a vendor, someone on the vendor side will, will vibe code and make those features available. And even we use those vibe coding stuff because I know how to program and tighten a bit, but I'm slow and it takes too much time. So if I needed a prototype or if I needed some data mining tool or whatever, I asked IT and then it took six weeks because those people have better things to do than delivering whatever I come up with that day. Yeah. And now just by vibe coding, I can do it in a few hours. That's amazing. And I use mostly menus that I'm sure if you know it, it's an agent, which was recently bought by Meta, by the way.

19:20Nice. Yeah. And it's really good. It can even produce a website based on just a few lines of code I give it. And it comes up with a whole website to present whatever I wanted to present. It's amazing. Okay. With a vibe, believe it, trust me when I say what you say is the most important thing in your organization. They don't, they don't ignore what you're talking about, which is why we're going to you for shoutouts, what you got. Cool. Okay. My shoutout is weakest to Travis Kalanik, if I pronounce it correctly, who Kalanik, Kalanik, Kalanik, Kalanik, Kalanik, yeah, that's what I'm getting next year, according to my. Kalanik. Right. That's Heism's newest product, the high Kalanik. Oh, sorry. It was, it was my shoutout. Okay, so. It's a healthcare podcast. Kalanik's in college. Joel's Kalanik. So my shoutout goes to Travis Kalanik, who, after making life of taxi drivers, miserable, my launching Uber is now coming for basically everyone else. He is doing it by launching Atom, which is a company,

20:21constructing not humanoid robots, but specialized industrial robots. Yep. And those have been, those have been around for decades, of course. But these are kind of new because they are totally deployable. You can put them wherever you want, they're mobile. You can vibe Coltum. You normally a robot has to be programmed using whatever language they use. They took a lot of time and very specific knowledge. Now you can just talk to the robots and play in English. Or if it's a very sophisticated robot, you can talk to it in Dutch. So if it's an elite robot, they use all the knowledge they have using large language models. So they know basically everything. They are context-to-wear, they use lenses. They use a camera to look around and they can see the context. They can be used for multiple purposes. And depending on the case, they just change the way they look. So humanites are nice because we feel familiar to them. It's nice to look at something humanite. But in most cases, humans aren't the best form. Let's say if you want to flip burgers, it's easier to use six arms than two legs.

21:25If you are static. So depending on whatever they were built for, they will look different. But they all have the same knowledge. And if one robot learns something using wifi, all the others know it too. So these are the perfect employees. So this is interesting because robots, they used to take over some tasks, specific tasks. These robots are just designed to take over complete jobs. You can use them for one job before noon and another one in the afternoon. So this is, for me, it's kind of, I'm getting anxious about it. This is going to change a lot of jobs, a lot of industries. And if it was only to fill in dangerous jobs, like they're talking about mining jobs, then it's great. And if you can put a robot in a mine and do the dangerous stuff, that's great. But they're also going to do logistic jobs, which are just jobs open to basically everyone. And if those jobs are disappearing, it's going fast. I'm going to look into it. And I'm sure someone somewhere will be getting very rich. So we'll try to take some part of it. But it's a very good thing. More like never doing podcasting, though.

22:25They're never going to do podcasting. That would never be in our show. By the way, until all the robots look like Sydney Sweeney, I'm thinking that it's going to be a long time before it takes off. Make all these things look like her. And robots are going to be everywhere. That's the easiest thing to do. That's the easiest way to gain. This is everywhere as our t-shirts are just flowing in and out. And all the free stuff at Shad and Cheese. Let's hear about what you can get by signing up. Hi, everybody. It's me, Stephen McGraft. And I'm here to tell you all about how you can grab some free stuff from chadchase.com. Now, you might be wondering why I'm sitting here atop us. And the answer is really simple. Because I've not grabbed my free t-shirt from Erin App at chadchase.com yet. Let me fix that. Right. That's better. So I'm spoiling a slightly vintage model here, but of course, that are new and updated designs every year. And those are super soft, breathable, and some might even say hubbable. Now, what else can you get? Both. You can get some craft here.

23:25It's not just any regular rubbish here. That's craft beer brought to you by the data geeks at Aspen Tech Labs. And if you're not into beer too much, then two seconds. Just go and get that. Then you can always go for a check-in cup, baby. That's right. Not one, but who bought those a check-in cup from the lovely people at Proven Base? Now, you're not going to get any of this stuff, unless you go to chadchase.com, forward slash pre and get yours today. I have to come in. I shared a little eye issue Stephen was dealing with. I didn't think he'd be as sensitive to my joke about whiskey being spilled into his eye. So, Stephen, I'm sorry for two weeks. Just clowning around. But I'm happy to say that you're on the mend and you're feeling better. And I will be much more careful with comments that might wreck your fragile state of free time. Fragile. Guy was like a blind for two weeks.

24:27I wouldn't call that fragile. I'm going to say next week, though. He's taken a train down to Hartfordshire. That's right, for next week for the RLX. March 24th through the 26th. Joel, I'm not sure these people know what's going to hit them. Stephen's going to come down. Yes. Oh, yes. That's exciting. We're going boys for those that don't know. The RLX is a fully hosted two-day retreat for senior TA leaders. And they're putting them in a room with Stephen and I for two full days. That's ridiculous. Plus, Natalie Farmer, a foreign legal consultant from Field Fisher. And I will be leading a discussion called AI and hiring. Legal is panicking. And TA is stuck in the middle. So it's going to be two days of nerding out and a lot of scotch. Can't wait. That's next week of the RLX. Well, it's nice to know that you're ignoring my recommendation of doing a session on QR codes that you want with AI. Like, I think that's bullshit, frankly. But you do, Chad.

25:29You do, you do. I can only submit presentations. I don't accept that. I just submit them. All right, guys, let's get into topics here real quick. Room alert. So I get a little birdie told me not fully, you know, fledged out yet. But a little birdie told me that paradox is assessment platform tradify is being acquired. Oh, which is interesting because obviously paradox acquired by work day. Tradify was already underneath that of paradox umbrella. So tradify being chunked out of that deal, apparently, and getting sold off as a part. Do we know the acquire is that is that I have an idea, but I'm not 100% sure. So we're going to sit back. We're going to wait on this one. But all right, I can't read that out. There's a rumor here. First kids. All right, let's get to some of the news this week. Indeed has incentives, everybody,

26:29promoting spend matching. Indeed, promise to match promises to match your current spend on non-indeed channels. Think LinkedIn aggressively promoting your roles, proving that indeed is good enough, smart enough, gosh darn it, people like them. But wait, LinkedIn says hold my beer because they're introducing AI to manage the initial interview process and screen candidates before moving forward in your interviewing process. It's the cage match desire chat. What's your take on all things, indeed, and LinkedIn this week? Yeah, this is the banana in the tailpipe on both sides of the house. Oh, are you falling for it? Got fall for this one. Yeah, I got a fall for the tailpipe. How do you say LinkedIn is a thorn in indeed side without saying LinkedIn is a thorn in indeed side? Well, this bullshit. That's a challenge. Is that a spingy, sping matching program. So, okay, let's get down to brass tax on this. To initiate the spend matching program employers

27:33have three requirements. Indeed, it's placing three requirements on that. Number one, they have to provide a source of higher report, which means they want your data. Number two, that you have to provide existing contract information, which means indeed wants competitive intelligence. What are you spending with LinkedIn, right? And number three, they want leadership buy-in, which means indeed wants to bypass agency. So yes, if you're a recruitment agency, add agency. Indeed wants your contacts to try to squeeze you out and take that 15% fee for themselves. They've been doing this forever. They're going to constantly do it. And this is just another way within this match spending whatever hell they're calling kind of scenario. I mean, imagine raising revenues by 15%. I mean, that's what every CRO wakes up every day wishing that they can do. So remember, this basically costs indeed nothing. And they can get your data, competitive intelligence, and they have an opportunity to bypass

28:36your recruitment marketing agencies. Indeed does nothing for free, kids. This is a Trojan horse to get your data, contracts and contacts. And to me, it's a show of desperation. And any recruitment at agency or hiring company who buys into this is a complete and utter fucking idiot. Just my personal opinion. You can't be doing this stuff. They're going to give you free sites. It's not free. You're paying for something. And you're paying with your data, competitive intelligence, and your contacts. Give me a break. Come on. Which sometimes comes off genius, right? Like, remember, job tracker, the app where you put in, you take pictures of help wanted science at your local downtown barber shop, and then they would get, oh, you get little, you know, you get, uh, I don't know, steak and chicken or something, uh, but they get a sales lead. They get like a small business sales lead. So chat is correct. There is no free lunch, kids. There is no free lunch. They have a they have an interest

29:37in getting something from you. You take a look at the the LinkedIn interview stuff. Let's move on to LinkedIn. Sure. They know, no, no, no, any system like this needs to be directly connected to your system of record. And that's the last thing you want companies like LinkedIn and indeed to connect to. Why? Well, first, you don't want an indeed or a LinkedIn to have access to your hiring signals, period, right? That's your data, especially that data. You do not want them to have access to. Plus the AI needs to train in a silo of specific data to your hiring needs and behavior. So LinkedIn isn't an option, but you should be looking at your core applicant tracking system players and or point solutions to help you scale your interviewing, right? So you should be looking at AI interviewing, but not from platforms like LinkedIn and indeed. hiring companies need an expert in this area. And that's not a player that is a big behemoth like LinkedIn or indeed.

30:38That's why, you know, bright hire was acquired, right? Those types of platforms who are specifically in that realm. Those are the ones you want to look for. Yeah, so use someone separate until they get acquired by Zoom or LinkedIn or Microsoft or somebody. And then then you can give your data. Zoom makes more sense. Zoom makes a little bit more sense. 60% of the time it works every time. Yeah, we're quick. Chad, you you stole most of my notes from the indeed thing. Like you and I are like and we're on the same page on that one. Nothing is free, kids. Call me a jaded American, but there is no free lunch. Indeed, want something for me for this. I do, I do think there's maybe a little more on the desperation side. I don't know how their initiative to get your disposition data is going. I don't think it's gangbusters. I don't think it's been a slam dunk thus far. So to try these different, different tactics to say, hey, we'll give you something free if we can go in and get your, you know,

31:38your reporting and what's going on there. And then somehow sneak my way into getting your disposition data. So I'm flipping the budget to that as opposed to what you've been spending on. And maybe that's part of the objective as well. You saw this, I think, as a a promotional email in the UK. I don't think we've seen this hit the US shores yet, but if as a lot of our listeners are in the US, you should start looking out for that indeed special offer to match your spend with indeed stuff. The LinkedIn, look, this is nothing new. The whole like autonomous interviewing, prescreening, it was just a matter of time before they were going to get into this. They have a history of producing products that are lesser, let's say, than the companies that just focus on one thing. So the jury's out is, well, not this thing, fucking works at all. It should because they're owned by Microsoft and they have connections to open AI and things like that. And I do see some examples of LinkedIn

32:40getting better at the AI thing. But this is a big step forward for them to get right. I also think that if they do get it right, it's really bad for the smaller guys. Maybe you and I differ on this. I mean, I think for a lot of companies, if I can do everything on LinkedIn, I'm fine not using other services to provide that. So if they get this right, it's going to be really good for them. And I also think we talked about LinkedIn's recent advertising campaign that targeted SMBs and smaller companies, which they've really been not into forever. They've been executive knowledge-based type workers. So to me, having this automated tool sets them up to go to some of these smaller businesses and say, look, you don't have a recruiter. You don't have a dedicated HR person that has the bandwidth to handle all this stuff. Let LinkedIn's robot, pre-screen and interview the people that you want to bring in. So I think there's a bit of a small business target in this thing.

33:41It's a pretty small test right now. I think you can do 40 a month, 40 of these pre-screens or 40s interviews. If it does well, they'll obviously extend that. But that's sort of my take. And if you ever have a startup, if your startup can be replicated by a big company that everybody uses, like you should maybe think twice about that startup. Unless you know there's someone that's going to buy you. Also, why Paradox timing was great. And it's not that they saw LinkedIn being a competitor. But they might have seen LinkedIn being a competitor. Leaving your thoughts on Indeed and LinkedIn this week. You know, I would love to give my honest opinion on it. But I still want them to sponsor the Congress and October 6th. So it's happening in October. October and Amsterdam. So no, but I need to be careful now because the contract hasn't been signed yet. With a bit of luck, you'll be standing on stage with some people from LinkedIn and indeed for the panel discussion. I would love to see that as a panel discussion. It's not a great for that. I know. No, we can record that.

34:42That will be awesome. So you don't want to, you don't want, what can you, like, are you, are you optimistic about these moves? Do you like these moves? Can you give us something? LinkedIn is doing, okay, I think. And it's moving the right direction. I don't understand why it's taking them so long. I mean, they should be moving in my opinion much faster. But they're getting there. Indeed is something else. What I've been doing with ChatGPT is a great move. And they got some integration. I haven't seen the results yet, but I want to figure it out. Yeah. But you won't hear me saying lots of positive stuff about Indeed. The way they have been treating us, the whole industry is disgusting, to be fair. And I was asked to not be too direct about them, so I'll shut up right now. Okay. Cubress. Cubress gets everybody every time. Yeah. LinkedIn has the luxury of being sort of Apple. They don't have to be first. They just have to get it good enough for everybody to adopt it.

35:42And they have, when you say they move slow, it's probably on purpose. Not on purpose because they don't know. The testing in the SMB side of the house because they know that a lot of these tools, these smaller companies aren't going to have those tools baked into bigger systems because they don't use bigger systems. So to be able to do that from a transactional standpoint makes sense. But the jumping into enterprise, they're going to need to get into to be able to scale from a total adjustable market standpoint. That just doesn't make any sense for a company at all. I think it'll be really interesting how it unfolds as to more professional level folks getting okay with robot recruiters. Because we've always historically said, well, you know, these hourly jobs, these folks don't have resumes. Like we're just going to give them this chat bot and they're going to be happy about it. I'd say it's not yet decided whether, you know, management level and above people are comfortable with robots interviewing them. We get comfortable and more comfortable every day as Leven was talking about having

36:42all these robots, physical robots that are around us. Those are more intimidating than the non-physical robots, right? They're, it's more process than it is actual physical robots. So I think these types of things, the actual algorithms that we'll be dealing with that will take more white colored workers. Jobs or tasks. Those are going to be adopt much faster and easier just because it's not as menacing. They're not as black mirror. I think voice will be a big step forward to that. I think chatting with text, I think feels a little bit unprofessional. But if you can get the voice stuff right, then that'll be fine. All right, guys, let's move on to gum loop. Say that three times fast. Gum loop and service now. So gum loop has raised $50 million in a series be funding roundled by benchmark. The company aims to empower non-technical employees to automate repetitive tasks using AI agents with a focus on ease of use and model agnostic flexibility.

37:43And the humans will need lots of agents because according to service now, CEO AI agents could easily send college grad unemployment over 30% check out this clip from CNBC. I think it's very natural to be concerned about jobs. I think young people coming at a university today is like 9% unemployment. I think it could easily go into the mid-30s in the next couple of years. The mid-30s. I do. So Chad, we've got agents galore, aside from the service now CEO looking like every cocaine dealer ever on Miami Vice. What are your thoughts on all this agent talk and unemployment? Yeah, the CEO or gum loop, I think it was actually said they get addicted. The users actually get addicted. They start building more agents and then all of the sudden the whole company is AI native. Let's face it, companies like Gumloop are incredibly smart. They're having people pay them to build armies of agents

38:46that work inside of thousands of different platforms. For me, Gumloop watches the builds then they move to offering the most popular agents for specific systems and then they turn into an orchestration platform instead of just building agents. So Gumloop is already showing agents working in Slack, Asana, Linear, Air Table, Google Calendar, Monday.com and many other platforms. So for me, this is crowdsourcing the... and think about it. If you have a bunch of people that use Monday.com every day and they know that there are process gaps or what have your things that can be automated. If I can, if I can, as a user, actually build something like that for myself and then Gumloop can watch it happen inside of Monday.com, they can go ahead and take that robot and they can make it available to everybody and sell it. Exactly. So it becomes an orchestration engine that was built by me, the fucking user who paid

39:47to build the fucking agent, right? And then you've got the guys at service now. Obviously, McDermick told CNBC that service now's tools will help businesses slash hiring cost. Adding that the software firm has already taken out 90% of customer service use cases. Then Palantir's Alex Carp told CNBC that he wants to grow revenue by 10x while reducing head count and then obviously Amazon. Go figure, Jazzy. Also wants to shrink its workforce by using AI tools. How are they going to do that? That's the question, right? And that's what we've seen with like the MIT survey where CEOs are like, this is not working. We're not getting the ROI. It all goes back to companies like Gumloop. That's how it fucking gets done. It's everything that's being built that goes in the background that takes all these tasks away. But Gumloop is smart enough to have me, the user dumbass paying for their platform

40:48in building their next gen product. I mean, it's fucking genius, man. Dumbass. The interesting thing that will unfold here is you have these AI tools, agent builders within companies. But you also have agent builders everywhere, like everywhere else. So we've seen Atlas, the browser. We see what Jim and I is doing. So you're going to have a little bit of like email. Like I have my Gmail, my personal account. That goes with me anywhere and everywhere. But then I have like my work email and everything in that stays within work. So my initial thought would be like, why couldn't you just take all your agents you make in OpenAI or Jim and I and just take it to every company that you work for? Of course, the problem with that is that the information is disparate. It doesn't necessarily fit in with what the company's objectives and goals are. So I do think there is going to be value in sort of this enterprise level agent that is outside of OpenAI or Jim and I or anyone else. Because if I can basically have an archive

41:49of all the agents that we've created in a company, all those agents are built for our individual company, goals and tactics and whatever we do, right? So whereas if you brought it one in from the outside, it may not fit like a glove with what we do here internally. Plus if it's internal, you're training all your co-workers, some that aren't even at the company yet on how to do certain jobs and how to get agents to do these jobs. If it's a passport where you just bring it in and out with you as you leave, that's less valuable to a company. So I do think these services that are enterprise-level agents and how you build those and how you coordinate that with fellow employees, there is going to be a market for that. Now do the big guys, anthropic, etc. create sort of like enterprise-level companies and you go, well, the clot agent is going to be way better than the gum loop agent. So we're going to go with that. I think that's left to be determined, but as a general sort of consensus, I get that having an enterprise-level agent makes sense for companies.

42:49On the service now side, I mean, it's very popular for Silicon Valley types to say everyone's going to be unemployed and we don't need to savor for retirement and UBI is going to be everywhere and anywhere. And there's been a lot of articles recently about the connection between saying such things and making AI-related layoffs and stock value. So you get like a block, you get a meta. And when they make these announcements, the street usually likes it and improves stock prices and values. I do think, directionally, he's right, though. I mean, unemployment rate between like college-level entry-level and college is going to 8%. The amount of under-employed in the US anyway is like 40%. So even the ones that aren't employed are taking lesser roles than they would than their degree apparently, you know, that they got. So short term, I think there is pain. Longer term, and this goes back to us talking about vibe coding and Alexander Chikovsky stuff.

43:50Like if people can create new companies, new services solutions, like there's going to be more businesses and AI is creating more problems to help that we need to solve. So I think longer term, think about Chad and we're coming up in the 90s and leaving. What it costs to make a website? Under the thousands of dollars, right? You had to developers and servers and like all that stuff is gone. All you need is an idea and you can make software. So I think short term pain is going to be there, but I think they're going to be new businesses sprout out from these kids that aren't getting jobs. That will create more jobs in the future. I think we just have to eventually eventually get there. Leaving your thoughts. I love the whole idea about enabling people to automate the boring stuff and to give them the tools to create these flows and to get them to spend some time on stuff that's actually like doing. But in this case, I totally agree with Chad was saying, you're just giving your knowledge away to a company who's going to create tools and duplicate them forever

44:52and sell them to everyone else. So basically, you are trying to make me build my own replacements. You're going to commercialize my replacements. It reminds me of shutter stock here. Now the story probably, shutter stock, the biggest image database in the world, they got 10,000, 100 of thousands of designers and all those people were freelancers and they sold their images to shutter stock and then shutter stock could sell them to users. And suddenly shutter stock saw it coming and they sold the whole database with images to Chad GPT for 170 million euros. And then Chad GPT was able to create its own images using that database to study on. And so now nobody ever uses shutter stock anymore because you just ask Chad GPT. So they're going broke, but also those tens of thousands of designers are going broke. It's a disaster. So in this case, shutter stock sold it. They saw it coming, they got the money and they'll figure out something else. But it's the poor people who didn't realize that what was happening, they lost their job. I think this is happening again and again

45:53and the best will stay working and they will design even better flows and even better agents. But all those mediocre profiles will lose their jobs. I mean, every app store that's ever been made is built to basically steal all the best ideas. And of course, bring them into your organization. So read the fine print on these. I'm sure these enterprise tools will have to have something that says we won't sell or it all stays with you. Probably. But yeah, for now, I'd say that is a risk for sure. They won't sell, but they'll see the ideas and they'll see what is popular and how it works. And they'll come up with something similar. But you can't stop it. It's happening. So just make sure you're the best. Always tell my students, some of you will get screwed, but the best will stay. So be the best. Well, guys, you'll never get screwed listening to the chat and cheese. So make sure you, if you like what you've heard, plug in, get the feed from us on whatever your favorite podcast, platform of choices. You can also check us out on YouTube. Imagine mixing pandalogics AI with broad beans,

46:56global job network to redefine your hiring process and expand what's humanly possible. Well, that's called veritone hire kids. Whether you're piloting a scrappy startup or a corporate juggernaut, they've got you covered. Need to blast job postings, craft a killer programmatic campaign? Or I don't know, maybe hit those diversity targets. Veritone hire does it all. Find, connect, and hire faster with AI powered tools designed to bring people together. So you can get back to what's important, grown to damn business. It's AI that helps people find more great people. Ready to elevate your hiring game? Head over to veritone.com slash hire and see what all the buzz is about. That's veritone.com slash hire. So I'll shout out. Boy, that escalated quickly. All right, guys, let's go big picture for a second. Microsoft and 22 retired US military leaders

47:58came out in support of Anthropics lawsuit against the Trump administration's Pentagon designation of the AI company as a quote, supply chain risk. This followed Anthropics refusal to allow unrestricted military use of its cloud model prompting a ban on federal use. A court hearing is set for later this month. Chad, a lot to a digest there, your thoughts. Okay, so big question is, what does this got to do with hiring? If you're a vendor in the TANHR space and your clients are government contractors, you have a problem. For better understanding, there are roughly 109,000 to 200,000 unique firms that receive federal contract awards annually. And then there's a rough estimate of another 80,000 companies who are on the subcontracting side. So if you're a vendor in the hiring and talent management space and you're using cloud in your products, this is what the fuck moment, right? Yes, you can switch models,

48:59but some are just better in certain areas than others. So if your platform is going to perform as well with another LLM, no. I mean, you choose what's best for whatever feature or process you're trying to put in place. And in many cases, that's cloud. So do vendors move away from cloud entirely or do they have a different setup with a not as good substitute for government contractors? So there are wrinkles that are popping up with AI on the daily and just when you think it doesn't touch you, what did the five fingers say to the face? Slap. There might be a wee problem, boys. Yeah, I'm sure the bourbon business didn't expect banning in Canada when they gave money to Trump. There's a long story to history of governments going against businesses. And government's usually win. Unfortunately, if you've seen the movie Aviator

50:00about Howard Hughes, his spruce goose was government and they decided to give him the big smack. There's also a lesser known movie called Tucker Chad about a car company that was developed and the car lobby basically squashed that business as government came out against that Jeff Bridges, yes. Good movie. Good movie. It's probably streaming somewhere. And look, the Trump administration is a special kind of vindictive. Look, there was some positives on this for sure. They became the number one used app in app stores. They brand recognition. A lot of people know Anthropic that didn't know Anthropic before this whole Trump dilemma. And if Trump was in his first sort of go round, I would be much more worried about Anthropic than I am in a second term of Trump. Look, I would bet more that in eight months or whatever when November hits, that he'll have a lot less power and be a lame duck. And a lot of these things are gonna go by the wayside than I would think that he's gonna have a majority

51:04in the house going into next year. So I think Anthropic, the history lesson on this is gonna be good for them. I think more or less anyone that is in the Trump sort of universe is toxic and they're gonna get thrown into the woodchipper. And we've already seen a lot of administration, the people from Mike Pence and on that get thrown in the woodchipper. So I think they're probably gonna be on the right side of history, which historically doesn't happen. I think Microsoft has financial reason to come out in support. I also think Microsoft sees that Trump is on the lame duck side of his presidency. So they have a financial reason to support but also I think politically, they're not gonna get hit too much. I think the Trump administration is gonna have a lot to deal with after November with impeachment trials and who knows what to worry about contracts with Anthropic. Yeah, if these companies don't step up now to be able to defend this type of action, it could come against them.

52:05Leave any thoughts? I think this isn't going to make the European policy makers more positive about using foreign large language models or high-risk activities like hiring or firing people. They're already very anxious and they call hiring people a high-risk activity when it concerns using AI. And if you hear these kinds of stories, then I think they're going to try to switch as fast as possible to something like mistral, the French version of a French large language model or maybe new ones coming up supported by European government, I think. And Anthropic is supposed to be the ethical large language model, the others are worse. At least they claim to be ethical. And they've captured that brand by saying, we're going to say no to our shit being used to kill people and blow shit up. So I mean, good on them. It may not work as well for Palantir. I mean, Palantir historically may be the bad guys. Yeah, they're always very much. They never even claim to be good. Yeah, just openly kill everybody.

53:06Yeah, I'm sure we do it more efficient than the others. The checks are clearing. Let's go. Yeah. And Chad, you and I talked about recently on a show about embracing European technologies and like getting those out of the government. That's right, Trump. And mistral is a great example of technology and France, right? France is a mistral, France. So there are examples that can take hold. So we'll see. It's like we're American, Chinese, or we're going to try to build our own and prop up our own companies. Future is interesting, guys. Maybe we live in interesting times. No, boring, boring times. Let's take a quick break, guys. Leave us a review, guys. Give us a star, whatever, little words of wisdom. What do you, whether you love us or hate us? We love, we love the feedback. It's commercial time. Okay, face it. Recruitment marketing is broken. 70% of paid recruitment media goes wasted. 93% of candidates bounce off your job ads

54:08before they even apply for the job. And this is not a talent problem. No, it's not a data problem. It's a targeting and experience problem. The beauty of this is companies aren't trying to fix it. They're transforming it. Hell yeah. With up to 80% more high quality applicants, 40% reduction in spend and 50% less recruiter time spent. They're realizing what's possible with recruitment marketing that actually works. So how do they do it? Well, they chose Joveo. And AI led high performance recruitment marketing platform built to eliminate waste and drive more results. With Joveo's AI agents, your job ads reach the right candidates while your career site, conversational AI and application process drive better candidates and conversions. What about those qualified candidates you've already bought and paid for and they're wasting away in your ATS? Well, Joveo also re-engages them. Want to learn more about Joveo? Cool, just go to joveo.com.

55:10That's j-o-v-e-o.com. It's show time. All right, guys, Jack and Jill went up a hill to fetch a paleo water. Code walls, autonomous AI agent exploited for seemingly harmless bugs in the Jack and Jill hiring platform, gaining admin access and probing its AI defenses. The agent demonstrated unexpected behavior, including social engineering and masquerading as one of our favorite people in the show. Donald Trump, to gain access to company data, this experiment highlights the potential for AI agents to become proficient at hacking other AI agents, posing a significant threat to cyber security. In case you missed it, Jack and Jill is a job search employment agent for companies to use to hire. Chad, your thoughts on the breach of code wall? Yeah, I mean, attention founders, your burn rates about ready to go through the fucking roof. The days of quarterly security checks

56:12are going to be as effective as a screen door and a submarine. I mean, if you were AI is always on, the hackers AI is always on. You're going to have to buy defensive AI just to babysit your product AI so that it doesn't get gaslit into giving away the API keys by a Donald Trump impersonator, right? But you've got to admit it, it's a beautiful racket. The VCs fund the fire. They also fund the extinguisher and founders become the middleman burning cash in the center of the room. It does not, being a founder right now with shit like this happening does not seem like it's going to be fun. Yeah, it's funny, is you read the story when Jack, the hiring agent, knew that it was Donald Trump actually addressed it as Mr. President. So the LLM actually connected the fact that Donald Trump is Mr. President. Also, Anthropic uses Jack and Jill apparently,

57:14so we're sort of coming full circle on this Anthropic thing, just a little endorsement for them. I'm not a paid sponsor or paid spokesman for them. In fact, I don't think I like their business when we talked about them on the show. So we talk about businesses and opportunities are created because of problems. Here's a problem, kids. The AI is going to, with scale, hack your shit, find weaknesses and take advantage of those. All that creates new opportunities for businesses and technologies to fight those things. So we talk about the unemployment rate and taking jobs, et cetera. Like humans are going to have problems to solve forever. And AI is creating new problems that we've never had before. Enter this problem of getting hacked. Every company that has a forward-facing solution is going to get hacked, is going to, like, the bots are going to come in, North Koreans. I mean, it's going to be like mass hysteria and you're going to need tools to figure out how to protect yourself.

58:15And this is an example of that. This was not a hack. This was not a breach. This was a friendly sort of exercise. So we don't mean to put any more importance than we need to. But these things are going to happen to you if they're not already. And you need to be prepared for it and have the tools to protect yourself. Even I'm sure you guys get attacks quite often whether they're friendly or not. What can you tell us? Nothing, nothing at all. We keep quiet about it, and it didn't happen. But talking about Jack and Jill, I was surprised in fact that the whole code wall stuff was published because I was actually testing Jack and Jill and our CIO, my colleague was enthusiastic about it. He liked the whole idea. But after the hack, I mean, reputation damage is real. And we don't want to get involved with companies that are actually not sure if it was easy, but so publicly. So we'll look into it twice now. I just wondered, and Jill, you just said it was a nice and friendly hack or something. I'm not sure what words he used, but it was something like that. It wasn't like a white hat.

59:18You could call it, I guess. If you give an error, you can do them as a control test. Control test, yeah. But normally, control tests are something you keep. I wish I had. Yeah, it's a test, it's been testing, penetration testing, but you don't publish the results if they're not good. And in this case, I mean, reputation damage must be huge. So this was my first thought when I read it. It's the whole, the whole AI service, of course, is amazing. And we use lots of tests to constantly try to find weaknesses in our own systems. So for pen testing, it's great, but the bad guys use it as well. And they probably are better at it than some others. It's a great point. I don't know what agreement they had to publish this stuff, if it was part of the reason why they would do it. But you're right. If anyone that goes to Google and says, is Jack and Jill safe to use? Or Jack and Jill, tell me about Jack and Jill. Ultimately, this is going to come up. And people, whether it was a breach or control

1:00:20or whatever, they're going to automatically say, oh, great, red flag. Not you, I'm not going to use Jack and Jill because of their history with this kind of stuff. But we are attacked constantly, Jill, really constantly, each day. And sometimes they try to, sometimes they get a bit further. But until now, we've always been able to stop them. We never had actual ransomware active, but it's a matter of months, years, I don't know. It's happening. Here in Belgium, we had a few big hospitals, which were totally unable to work for days because of ransomware. It's evil. And they're coming for the money where it is. So I think they're just going to attack big companies. And it's like a lottery. And look, historically, the job search space is ground zero for scams, because people are vulnerable, people are desperate. And climate information, lots of it. Yeah, I mean, imagine the number of bots that are contacting people to interview for jobs and get data from them. And like, I mean, there's a whole level of evil

1:01:22in our space that is unique to us, historically, unfortunately. Yeah, but the good thing is we have a very big team working on cyber security. They're very active and they're constantly training people to be aware, to be vigilant. So I think maybe those hackers will try to find a target which is easier to penetrate. And they'll leave us alone. I think that's the point, believe it. I think that's the point. Is that you guys are a bigger organization. You are focused heavily on, you know, obviously being able to deter these types of attacks. And the way you can do that is actually have teams to be able to be, you know, very vigilant around this, where a lot of these new companies, like a Jack and Jill, they're just, they just launched the product and they weren't thinking about security. They're actually spending their first spent money on getting the MVP, not on protection, right? And I mean, that's what I'm talking about, burn rate for these founders. They're going to have to actually spend a lot more money on protection, defense AI, as what they're calling it,

1:02:25instead of just sitting back and trying to do these quarterly audits. Yeah, but it's such a waste of energy and money if you have to spend it on such a thing. But as Jill said, AI is going to create new problems and it's going to create cottage industries, it's going to create a lot of different things. Well, guys, speaking of working around the clock are a craft team of dad joke experts have come up with a real doozy this week. Is this from Jeremy, too? No, no, no, he's taking a break this week. What, what do you call an Irishman who bounces off walls? What do you call an Irishman who bounces off walls? Rick O'Shea. Oh, that was good. That was good. Happy same Patrick's Day. Past the Tylenol. We out, we out. We out. Thank you for listening to what's it called? Podcast. The chat. The cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology. But most of all, they talk about nothing.

1:03:28There's a lot of shout outs of people. You don't even know. And yet, you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one, chatter. Blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way, you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chatchees.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.