How are live service games affecting the gaming industry?

0:00This is almost 107, a fan-shot college journalism student podcast. Get real. When no one's got their whole goal is to never finish the game. Right, right. And to keep going into this video game program, what kind of games are you a little bit big? I love Friendslot. I say that with with with absolute endearment reader. I love to read. And it's like, what did you read? Like I read Lord of the Flies 50 times. And I'm like, okay, like you read that one book. You're a reader. Like no one can say your love. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the J&J podcast. I'm your host, Jaden Davis. I'm Joshua Chad. And welcome to the big gamer episode. Yeah, so Jaden, what kind of games do you play? I play a lot of the solo adventure games. I really like oblivion, Skyrim. I've been playing God of War lately. I've read that as like my favorite game ever.

1:00Just kind of the solo casual experience. Okay. Well, I'm kind of more of like the online multiplayer person. I like playing League of Legends. That's my main game. I've dabbled in some like Valorant, some Overwatch. But I'm not too big into those. But yeah, kind of those games. So I guess we got two sides of the same coin here in video games where we have like a standalone games over here where they're released. And they're kind of just full games already. And then we have my games where they're released. But they're kind of being constantly updated throughout its life cycle. So what kind of what do you kind of think of that and the gaming industry in general? Um, I don't love life service games. I feel like they come out unfinished. I feel like a lot of them are just cash grabs that are just trying to get you to buy currency or buy cosmetics and stuff like that. Whereas a single player game you generally get the full experience. You can 100% it whenever you want. Like there's there is a clear end to it. And do you like that life service kind of just keeps continuing forever? Yeah, I like having an end to my games.

2:02Like I like having the story being finished. But I kind of also like change in my games. I like being able to come back like every other two weeks and just have something different to play on. Um, and so guess that's just the two different opinions for these games. But that's just our opinions. We talked to video game theory professor Raul Mulbrooke and he gave us his opinions on life service games and how they're affecting the industry as a whole. And then we spoke to video game design student Graham about what he thought as well. I don't think live service games are inherently evil. Okay, I think they are good. They have a place and when they are created with intention, heart, and when they are player focused to not exploit them, I think they can be wonderful things. And if you cater to a certain type of player, that's kind of not me. And so I think, you know, where they get evil, if you will, for a lack of a better word is when they are made clearly as cash grabs where it's like, you know, generic and how much can we, how much can we exploit players as much as we can. And that's not just their money their time.

3:02Because I, the criticism of destiny which I never got into was like the grind. And it's kind of like with warcraft, too, where it's like, I need to level up to have fun. That's why here it's like, I will pay you to level up my character to have fun. And so when it comes to that, I just feel it silly. And you're not. I mean, how can anyone find that fun? It becomes a job when the live service game becomes a job. It's like lost all of its meaning. So there you go. Do you have any play any live service games? I do. Yeah. Like me personally, I dabble a little bit in Fortnite. Fortnite to me is, is if you have 20 minutes to kill or 30 minutes to kill and you want a quick match, you know, I'm not going to play my latest RPG that I'm playing. I dabble in that, get my butt kicked and it's fine. Me and the boys at one point played hell divers, too, quite extensively. And then we got bored of that and then we moved on. So that's that's kind of it. Like I'm not really a cod guy and I'm not really into, I don't know what the new hotness is. You know what I mean? Like our creators, our creators, I'd like to play if they change the PVP option. So I might dabble in that. So I'm a casual live service fan.

4:03There you go. Perfect. Now you mentioned Fortnite. What do you think makes that live service game work compared to all the other flops that end after six months? Right. I think, like, and again, this is just off the top of my head. I think the secret to their success is their pop culture tie-ins, right? They're always tying into stuff. You know, there's a Simpsons one. There was the South Park one. Stranger Things. Star Wars. Like they are really good about tapping into pop culture and the zeitgeist of the time and rappers and whatnot to keep things interesting. And then, you know, the game itself, like it skews young, whereas I guess PUBG was, you know, like there's no blood. Do you think that that model of the online constant updates is long sustainable? Like, do you think that can survive? I think these games find an audience and the audience really has to like the game to keep playing it. Like I'm a guy who gets bored of that stuff. It's up to the community and the developers to have like events and the events have to be a big enough draw to keep pulling you in. And I have a short attention span.

5:04Even sometimes the draw isn't even that great. Do you see the trend continuing towards live service gaming becoming more popular? Well, that's a trend. No, no, no, there's definitely a trend. I feel there's a trend. No, seriously. Like when you think about this, like let's say, do you have a game like ARC Raiders that came out, which no one thought would do? Okay, let's go back. Hell Divers 2 comes out and was a sensation. No one thought it would do as well as it did. And like you think to yourself, like why? I mean, I analyze this stuff. Why did Hell Divers 2 do so well? It played well. It had a really cool vibe to it of we were all together. Do you know much about Hell Divers? I know a bit. It's like Starship Troopers, which is an old sci-fi movie that I liked when I was growing up where it's like you're part of the resistance. Like the bugs are out there. They're going to attack your planet. You're super earthen. It's really kind of this over-the-top bravado military, whatever. And they do it so well. So they have like a really cool aesthetic that goes with it in an attitude. And then the game played well. Like the game always has to play well. So that worked. Our creators, I hear, is kind of the same thing.

6:04The graphics are really cool. It plays well. And that whole, the big idea with our creators now is its PvE. So you're fighting giant robots and like the variety. But there's also PvP where you don't know if that dude's going to kill you and take all your stuff. And that ends an element of like, can I trust you? Can I not? Which I don't like for me. Because I have a limited time to play games. And I don't want to be ambushed and lose all my stuff. And I'm just like whatever. It's like when we played Sea of Thieves and someone just kept following our ship wanting to sink. But we just like sunk our ship and moved to a different server. We were done. And like, I won't mess around with that. I don't have that much time. So my point is like, in the past year, like, that's, you know, three new ones. So I would say that they're probably going to keep developing it. But then there was that issue of Microsoft where. Oh, no, it was Sony. I'm so sorry. There was a team that was going to make a live service got a war game that kind of fell through. So like Sony. It's always Sony, right? Sony keeps wanting like their live service jam. But they have Destiny too, which I'm told is not that great now. So I don't know what to say. Live service games are sometimes called never finished. They're constantly.

7:04Yeah. Two more. Like I, forever games. They're called, which I thought that was a term that I heard when they first came out. And then it went away. And then they changed the word to live service. So I actually like changed my lecture because I kept calling it a forever game. And then I don't think anyone referred to it as that. And so that's when I said live service. But now. If you're saying that back, it's back and vote. Everyone knows, yeah, like their whole goal is to never never finish. Right. Right. And to keep your attention. Do you think that's good for gamers? No, I don't. I don't. But I mean, as I always said, like to a certain. So this is when I begin my course and like you would know this like. I love video games. And to me, video games are experiences. And I am out for different experiences. And to me, a person who just plays one game over and over again is like the same person who reads like one book over and over again. Or maybe one book series or just watches Marvel movies. I think as as human beings, like you are missing out on so many other worthwhile experiences. So I feel very passionate about that regarding video games as an art form. Do you think that they're taking away from the casual experience for gamers?

8:06Well, the funny thing is is I view live service games as casual games. I don't know if that I don't know if I'm the only one, right? Like I truly feel. It's funny, right? Because gamers are very passionate. They're very sometimes egotistical, right? I'm a gamer. And I'm like, are you? Yeah, I put like 2000 hours into Overwatch too. And I'm like, I mean, that's great. But like you only. I mean, to me, it's the same thing. I'm a reader. I love to read. And it's like, what did you read? Like I read Lord of the Flies 50 times. And I'm like, okay, like you read that one book. You're a reader. Like no one can say you're not. But at the same time. So I feel the same way about like live service games. Like I view. It's like when I talk to students and they're like. It's no, it's no mistake that I, again, that the top three games are like Minecraft, which is usually played with other people on servers, community, GTA online. And Fortnite, you know what I mean? And so I view those as very safe casual games that people play. If they just want to play this one live service game over and over and over again and have the updates, like I guess that's great.

9:06But I just feel they, like I almost feel bad for them mentally. I'm like, okay, like you should broaden your horizons and have a better experiences. So that's, that's how I feel. Now a lot of these live service games rely on the daily rewards and battle passes and stuff. How does that affect the player's experience? So that's the stuff I don't like. To me, there are two versions of live service, right? There is like your team fortress two sea of thieves. Hey, we're not going to pray on you. We're not going to be predatory. You pay the game once and then maybe you buy in-game things like sea of thieves. You could buy pets. And of course, the team fortress two I hear about hats all the time from the team fortress two people. And our, another creator is pardon me. I'm held by verse two. So again, if they're offering you cosmetic items like Fortnite that you don't have to buy, that is fine. And even Fortnite's seasons, they're compelling to people who want to play them and they change enough. But I don't feel the FOMO is there as much as it would be in like a Genshin impact or in, you know, some of these other games. So if the question was like how do I feel how it affects the players?

10:07Psychologically, it definitely affects them. It prays on that whole idea of FOMO. And I just think it's, I mean, unethical. I do think it's unethical. I really do. I mean, they can do what they want because it's like fast food companies are smoking. The developers and manufacturers always like it's, they put the onus on the buyer. They're like, well, you don't have to buy that big Mac. You don't have to do this. And I'm like, yeah, I understand. But the consumers in a position of weakness, they're kind of outgunned, I feel. And so yeah, so I feel predatory live service games affect the psychology of players and they're not great. But I think the good thing is is that in this time now gamers are really aware of this. And they're becoming more aggressive towards it. So I really like that idea that they're basically fighting back and away and saying, you know, we don't want your live service slop. We're tired of predatory mechanics and like that. Yeah, like when you log on to an online game and then immediately get hit with the upgrade. So I've never seen that because those are not the games I play, right? Like that's the funny thing. Like when I play Fortnite, you know, I just keep using that one, right?

11:07Even though I'm such a casual player, but like it'll be like, oh, here's a bunch of rewards that you were entitled to. Like they're all free, though. And so I'm just like, a, I play an Xbox a, a, a, a, a, a, my new backpack, my new this, my whatever. And then I just play the game, the end, right? Yeah. But I think that like maybe the only experience I had is when my friends and I were going to play a cod game or not really big cod fans. And yeah, like right up on the screen, it popped up like, oh, buy your battle pass for 30 bucks or something. Or like, nope, in the end. But I've never played a game where it constantly, like, like Genshin put it that way where they, they call them polls. I don't know how much you know about it. Okay. So it's the, you're supposed to keep buying heroes or whatever. People who are in your party who are more powerful and you have the opportunity to buy or pull these better players. So you pay money for that. And so that's always about like get these players this time only three for a dollar and you know whatever currency they use. So live service games are ones that are just released and then they're constantly updated throughout its cycle, like League of Legends, Apex, Fortnite.

12:09What are your opinions on those kind of games? I personally think that live service games are, it's a pretty good way. Okay, there's two sides to this business side. It's undeniably the most lucrative and most easy to engage your audience. The whole reason that people's interest falls off is that there is nothing new happening. And a live service game just means that there's something new happening every week if you want it. And typically, you know, it gets a bad rap because it's technically an unfinished game. And this is the other side of the coin where I'm a gamer too. I'm not just a bit, I'm not just looking at from the business side. It is frustrating to have unreleased games come to market. The Overwatch Overwatch 2 thing is literally theft in my opinion. But those are my opinions. I think it undeniably is a very lucrative system. Definitely, definitely draws attention. They can be broader than most like one time release games.

13:12You can add more to it. You can add game modes. You can add new maps. You can add new characters. There's all sorts of stuff that you can add. And that all comes. And this is where I think that the actual engagement for money say is really really a very good business model. Because instead of saying we're going to release $40-$60 whole edition thing, you do instead $5 skin. And you do that incrementally. So it keeps it's dopamine rush. It keeps game players very invested in the game. I mean, the best example is Marvel rivals is, well, jeez, League of Legends is probably the best example you can get because of how long standing it's been. How much money they've made. How long it's been at the top of the leaderboards of like most played games. And it's entirely because they do this continual iteration release. That being said, it is. I find it a lot more engaging, but I guess this might be a little fashion for a game to release all of its content.

14:17And I finished state so that I can get the like masterpiece all in one rather than buying lettuce for my burger after I have my burger. I got the full bite. Yeah, and I think it's interesting that you bring that up because I guess one of the most recent controversies with that happening would be like no man's guy where that was released. I bought original no man's guy. I bought it when it first came out. I was one of the hype kids. And let me tell you that broke me. It actually shattered my expectations of unreleased hopes that that kind of thing is something that needs to be seen rather than just felt. You can't just like, oh, I feel so good about this game. If there's no proof, you're going to get a bait and switch. The problem is that there's no reason for them to actually do any of the stuff once you give them their money, which is why early access is so toxic. It's good for the business side of video games. Undeniably, it makes more money. You do less work for more monetary gain, but you're breaking your entire constituents hearts.

15:22Unless you deliver, the no man's guy example is actually great because it's a huge success. He turned it around. He clearly cared, and they made something of it. But that was like a foundational. I'll never play no man's guy. No matter how good it gets, it actually broke my heart. Like I can't trust early access anymore. And I'm going to, I love games. I love being optimistic about development. I love the idea that this is a passion project. And yet they failed categorically. They failed to deliver and it cost, you know, it's like $70, $80. And it didn't, it was nothing. It was, it was a mining pillars on an empty rock. And it's like truly heartbreaking and shocking, right? Yeah, so then I guess the other side of that would be now GTA 6 being delayed by like, I don't even know how long it is. But I guess like, it has to do that unless it's going to end up like no man's guy.

16:26I got mad respect for people, especially the bigger the project and the more money there is behind it. They called a delay on that. There's billions of dollars tied into that. They're making people who have invested billions of dollars saying like, no, no, no, we got to get it right. Thank you. Thank you for doing that. Please, everybody else take note. Do that. Do that instead. Please. Thank you. Wow, that was great. Wasn't it Josh? Yeah, I mean, I had a lot of fun talking about League of Legends. I feel like I don't have an opportunity to do that very often. So, you know, I had a good time. What about you? I had a good time. I feel like Robert really changed my perspective a bit on live service games being the casual experience. Whereas, I always thought of them more as the esports of the gaming industry. Yeah, and I kind of thought that, well, I kind of agreed with him that the early access games are. Do feel kind of bad because they're unfinished, but with Graham saying that they are kind of like a necessary evil so that they can make money to continue.

17:28Yeah. And yeah, that's the end of our podcast episode. I'm Joshua Chen. And I'm Jaden Davis. Thank you for listening. Thank you.