Hour 3 - The Mistrial Is Official

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1:01That's TriFencing.org On September 19th, the Monster Energy SMX World Championship playoffs races into Los Angeles. This is it! It's all the line! Now the pressure is on to deliver! And for the world's best 22 dirt bike racers, only one will go home number one. Wow! It all comes down to this. Go experience all of the action live. Coming to Dignity Health Sports Park in Los Angeles, California, September 19th. Get your tickets now at SuperMotoCross.com Seven bucks. That's barely the delivery fee on an order of Dan Dan noodles. But seven bucks is enough to get you out of the house and into something interesting, adventurous. Because for seven scrawny bucks a month, do more. Get you at least one pair of tickets to something you'll be psyched to attend. A concert comedy, perhaps that new exhibit. Stuff you like and stuff you didn't know you did. Yet, try it free for a month at domorestuff.com slash free. And do more.

2:04Enjoy big savings with Red Hot Deals at Vons and Albertsons. This week at Vons and Albertsons, baby back pork ribs are 2.99 per pound with membership where applicable limit three racks. And ballpark hot dogs or hamburger buns eight count are 2.99 with digital coupon. Plus personal seedless watermelons or cantaloupe are 1.99 each with digital coupon. Enjoy fresh and delicious savings for every meal. Hurry in, these deals won't last. Visit vons or Albertsons.com for more deals and ways to save. Welcome back in, Clay and Bok. Appreciate all of you hanging out with us. We are rolling through the Friday Adj. Friday edition of the program. We are waiting to see if the Lindsey Clancy trial is going to be updated in any way if you are just getting in your car right now. And catching up with everything that is going on. We have got really Lindsey Clancy all talk.

3:07It has taken over earlier today. The jury was deadlocked and there was a mistrial that was declared that was then held in a band to allow a last second appeal to the Massachusetts Supreme Court to try to get a juror kicked off the trial. And now we are according to the headlines that I am seeing the Massachusetts Supreme Court is weighing the emergency request that has been filed by the defense to get this loan juror kicked off of the trial. So that is where we are. There appear to be 11 votes to find Lindsey Clancy not guilty. Only one who appears is one of the three men on the trial that is willing to say no, she is in fact guilty. And so we are waiting to see what is going to be the result of this trial.

4:07Okay. I believe we are joined that now by Katie Zacharias. She is with us right now. Katie, you are a mom of four. I want to read you what I tweeted earlier because I'm quoting her. My wife Laura, a mom of three, she's furious with the Lindsey can't clancy case. She was talking about it with me this morning. She said it's the worst thing possible for women because if women are so hormonal, they can't keep from killing their own kids. How can women argue they deserve any positions of high responsibility? She says it's anti woman to favor not guilty. And she also has been saying no man is ever able to cite his own hormones as justification for committing a murder. And no one would even take it seriously if men tried to do it. You are a mom of four. As I just said, do you agree with her take what is your take on this?

5:10Yeah, you know, when we first started talking about Lindsey clancy, I was under the incorrect assumption. This is months ago that we all knew she was guilty of killing her children and it was a discussion, a legal discussion. I'm also a lawyer as to whether or not the prosecution could prove beyond a reasonable doubt on that Lindsey clancy had the capacity. That only looks at murder, one murder to a man's slaughter. This is not she didn't do it. And to see this hyper focus on these pink shirt women that are rallying not just saying Lindsey clancy didn't do it, but the husband may have done it. And this hyperbolic and almost insane presence of the toxic feminism is to what you were just discussing is to the point that so much of the time if a woman is engaged in the same way, if a woman is engaging in this type of discussion, you cannot be taken seriously. A serious discussion is capacity and whether or not the 13 psychiatric drugs and the contraindications diluted her ability to understand her appreciate the wrongfulness of her conduct, which is that she murdered three of her children, that she killed three children.

6:21Look, Clay, she said her husband out on an errand and she intentionally took those three children down to her basement and killed them. This is not up for discussion and a society as a whole should be treating this and Lindsey clancy truly as she is not the victim. She is the perpetrator and she destroyed three lives for it. But again, to your point, women will not be taken seriously if they start excusing every hormonal or hormone or postpartum depression, it alleviates all responsibility from women, which then makes them not serious candidates for positions as you just said. So Katie, appreciate you being with us and we were going to talk about the economy and things like that, but because of the news today, we've got to get you to weigh in on this, but has has been stated, you are a mother of four, you are clearly a woman and you're also a lawyer to the degree that you can take us into the mindset of some of the pink shirt wearing supporters here of Lindsey clancy, you're also a California, you come on a lot to talk to us about what's going on with the golden state.

7:27I assume you have been exposed to, if not in your immediate circle, women in your area, whether out protesting or just from conversation who are Lindsey clancy supporters, what is going on there? Like, what is it that these women are thinking, why has this turned into a case of a national solidarity from a lot of women, millions of them, it seems, who are almost fans of Lindsey clancy or you know, view it as like some extension of their own problems in life, what I know it's very complicated, it's a weird situation, what are they thinking? Well, yeah, first book, the thing is that I've noticed and it must be said is that this really hasn't gone down on Republican or Democrat lines. I've had actually a lot of women on the Republican like conservative women come out in support of Lindsey clancy and even to my surprise, my more liberal side of the equation has, at least from my vantage point, have come out against Lindsey clancy.

8:35So it's not always and completely a get on partisan lines right now, which I think is an even more interesting investigation that needs to be looked at it, what are these women watching, what are they looking into and what are they reading and who's challenging their thought process? And from what I have seen is most women are against, because I'm not really a Lindsey clancy because it will not allow for women to be taken seriously on the greater scale, but also because if you are a mother, you understand that this woman appreciated the wrongfulness of her conduct and murdered her kids. And I have four kids, I had sleepless nights, I never thankfully had postpartum depression postpartum psychosis, I had what many have said postpartum euphoria, but there are long sleepless nights and to to give this woman an excuse for her behavior will show other women that they can do whatever they want with their children and and they won't be held accountable.

9:35And I think to to end here, the problem with our society right now is that we are finding reasons to excuse a woman who killed her children and and it's mostly women that are finding that a space to excuse her, but there are some men that are coming out and supportive her and whether that juror 111 where you have even two men that have gone over to the non guilty. There is there is something happening in a society that says you can harm your kids and not be held accountable and that is what we need to get at we need to get at the root of this really, really toxic ideology. I think that what you said is important because really what it comes down to is individual responsibility and it feels like we are increasingly coming up with reasons why people are not responsible. Here is my concern when unfortunately we see kids commit suicide in high school for instance, oftentimes there is an echo effect when one kid commits suicide.

10:35Unfortunately, several others often do the media attention, the just again, sort of the reverberating impact of this. My concern is something you just hit on there, Katie, which is other women out there who might be struggling see her and see the way that she is being supported and I fear that it makes it more likely that we could see an echo effect of this similar to what we see with suicides where other young children are killed because Lindsey Clancy is in the mind of so many moms out there. Absolutely. If you look at this pattern on TikTok and I will not repost it and I will barely even look at it but there are videos that are going viral of accidental deaths where they are holding a baby doll and throwing them down the stairs or tripping and it is as a parent horrifying to even imagine pretending that you would hurt your child or that you would hurt an innocent life.

11:37Nonetheless, these people are getting viral retweets and feedback and moms are all recording themselves crying and it is a true online psychosis. This is not accidental. This is what happens when a society starts telling you from the beginning that abortion is okay up until 41 weeks. That is late term abortion and that child can survive outside of the womb. That just happened in Massachusetts. It is no mistake in my opinion that we are now facing you can kill your three children and we can exonerate that behavior and then we are going to have viral videos of other mothers essentially buffering that behavior and lightening it by making a TikTok video to light music of their baby falling down the stairs that they accidentally dropped. This type of stuff has to be immediately called out and it has to be completely disregarded in society as what it is is it is sick and toxic and if enough women push against it and enough men together with women push against it.

12:42I think people will realize that they are on the fringe of society but what happens with social media is some little small part of society puts these viral videos out and it makes everyone think that everyone is going through this which a majority of mothers look. I have a lot of friends who have four plus kids. I don't know anyone who went through this. To think that this is some mainstream problem it is not a mainstream problem and we need to treat it like this psychosis toxic ideology. Psychotic toxic ideology that it is. So Katie where do we go from here? What do you think the response from those who see this for what it is? How do you? I just again as a mom of four and somebody who I think very importantly you pointed out because this has been my experience too. This is not a hard partisan separation. There's definitely a hard gender separation overwhelming. There are some men maybe who are supportive more supportive of Lindsey Clancy. But overwhelmingly it is women. It is not all left wing women. There are I have experienced this.

13:47People women who are right of center. How do we get back to a society that would understand unanimously that there's nothing worse than a situation where a parent kills their own children and that we all have to be accountable for our actions. Right. You ask the more than a million dollar question here but because what I view my responsibility here is to call out truth and to argue each component of this reasonably and intelligently. And where we where we lost the conversation is when everyone thinks that they can talk about very complicated legal topics in a very lighthearted or let's just say infused with so much emotion that you actually don't have any ability to see the legal framework that for instance these jurors were given beyond a reasonable doubt. Everyone thinks that they can talk about capacity. Everyone thinks that they can talk about exactly what's happening in the minds of these jurors or the prosecution or the defense.

14:51But the facts are is that this is a very I would say it's straightforward in certain ways legally but there are complicated factors when you deal with capacity and the psychiatric meds and what the defense argues in the prosecution. And everyone wants to weigh in on this case. But and I think that is also the symptom of having social media right and so what you and Clay are doing what I try to do and what a lot of other people do is to take to contend in the battlefield intelligently to provide reasonable arguments on you know you don't have to reasonably argue both sides but a lawyer can always go in and say look the prosecution is going to argue this and here are some of the things that the defense is going to bring up that's going to make it hard to do. And I think that's going to make it hard for the prosecution to get beyond that reasonable doubt. But I'm still not going to deter from the fact that this woman is guilty and needs to be held accountable for the death of her three children that she caused and I think you just have to be strong and be willing to take the heat. All of us do because we cannot let again cannot let this toxic ideology continue to fester because it will destroy us as a society you cannot just you cannot kill your young children you cannot kill the elderly you have to protect the infirm and those that cannot protect themselves as society or you are completely lost as a culture and America needs to be on the foreground and the forefront of this.

16:14But not in the background wondering what moral baton to hold. Katie Zachariah always great to have you here on the program and thank you for bringing your legal perspective your mom perspective and you're just human perspective on this appreciate you. Thank you. I talked to you about it before guys I'm talking about it again on a day like today I can't imagine a better way to turn toward the light and away from the darkness after a trial like this has shaken so many of us that it's not going to be a good thing. So many of us and it seems like there is a darkness that is spreading on many many ways across the country. You can turn us for the light with pre born pre born is saving babies right now they have clinics open all over the country and they have a very straightforward and critical mission. It's to welcome moms to be with open arms and say hey before you make a decision like abortion for this baby let's have you meet that baby via ultrasound. It's over 80% of the time when that it's free by the way of course when that mom has a free ultrasound and then it's provided with all the support that pre born offers for two years after the birth of the baby as well.

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21:00Okay welcome back to play and buck the judge judge Sullivan. He is talking to up to the jury right now he is saying has he has said he's going to talk to council. Is he still talking should we join in progress guys no I think he's he's about to have a side bar with them right at the end of the here we go. The evidence that just kind of want to echo again I want to compliment all three council. I try like this so hard so difficult and so I just kind of want to thank the three of you for your efforts and regards to this and so with that. If you talk they think we should probably pick a status date any where we are trial assignment date. I would talk to you and we are sorry I would like to argue at 25 B2 and that has to be done within five days so I mean I would like.

22:05If possible to have this on for a hearing on a motion for required finding reconsideration 25 B2 on Tuesday and my request assuming that you deny that motion would be that we in panel the following Monday. That would require I'm going to check my schedule and also so what I'm going to suggest I understand that's the request in my my thinking is to try it sooner rather than later but I'm not sure that sooner. And it's a situation I also have to check the trial court schedule council schedule witnesses schedule but my thought would be to try this. You know if we could do it maybe sometime later in the fall. But why don't we pick a date maybe a couple of weeks down the road so everybody could get their calendars together and kind of see where we go. What about the 25 bringing you back in there talking about when they would schedule a new trial a mistrial has officially been declared switch yourself on service to the company we stand behind pure talk you won't regret it great 5G nationwide service on the nation's largest network of towers.

23:21Same network used by one of the better known companies at a fraction of the cost we want you to save money to spend on the things you need. And at a time you can make the switch and get just $15 a month $15 a month for the first three months pick out any of the monthly service plans that work the best for you instead of $34.99 which still is a heck of a deal you can get $15 a month for the next three months just to say play and buck pure talks five star customer service team underway that's pound to five zero say play and buck and sign up for pure talk today. Welcome back in play and buck okay officially a mistrial has been declared in the Lindsey plan C case the legal hell marry attempt for Massachusetts Supreme Court to step in and remove a juror which would allow the conviction theoretically to be taught. Sorry the charges to be tossed in a not guilty verdict to have been rendered where it appears we were is 11 Massachusetts jurors were prepared to say that Lindsey Clancy was not guilty by reason of insanity one man one of the three men on the jury refused to agree with the majority and for days probably buck he has been

24:47being berated because we know they've been saying we can't reach a verdict now what we don't know is where they're initially more individuals alongside of this man that would have been in a position to support him and slowly they got peeled off or has it been 11 1 for several days now you know how difficult this is I mean I actually want to know who the guy is I do too man I want to I want to have him on the show I'm sure he probably be on Fox prime time here within a couple of days time time here within a short period of time this guy held the line held the line for sanity held the line for civilization refused to back down good for him good for here you know he did his part of the way clay if you or I had been on this jury which I think we would have excused pretty fast but if we had managed to either was being the sure I would have found myself in the same position this guy no way I let this woman walk to a psychiatric facility after she does this not after I saw the pre-meditation not after I saw that she was getting all this help that there were people everywhere working with her and trying to make her life no way no way no how so I this guy is a hero

25:54cut 25 is the is the official announcement in the courtroom that just happened play it I'm sure the jury at this point I'm going to declare that the jury is deadlocked and I'm going to declare a mistrap all right So there you have it officially Clay can I just note even without a JD I was sitting here meeting the degree not the vice president I was sitting here saying just by applying reason and rational approach to this if you can just say oh I really don't like the way that this one juror is applying the law I want another court that hasn't heard all the evidence that hasn't been there for weeks to just remove this juror because the defense doesn't want in there then the whole thing is a joke so clearly the Supreme Court of or you know whoever the appellate appellate court for the state of Massachusetts may be they said okay we'll hear what you want and they said now we're not going to do that because that would be nuts not everybody happy with us Stephanie VIP email I've been listening to you since you took over for rush but I just had to turn you off the radio because I'm so sick and tired of you

27:13to pontificating about this trial first of all you are men you've never experienced what it's like to have any kind of hormonal fluctuation with postpartum depression or having anything like that trying to equate this with men killing their children is disgusting and then she says she continues okay, I can't at least she's not listening because I jump in something Clay how about we play this game if she wants to take this approach a veteran returns from seeing serious combat has extreme PTSD extreme PTSD which is you can see it on brain scans not his fault he's serving the country and he has extreme by the way I'm not saying this happens with veterans but just play out the scenario he kills his wife and two kids in a fit of you know psychotic uh Rachel PTSD are there any men out there and pink tea not pink t-shirt but whatever you know with placards saying that this guy should not be held responsible what would other veterans even be out there saying he shouldn't be held responsible no

28:18no because there are limits there are limits even in a case of psychological duress to what you can do when you know what you are do she knew what she was doing she did not think she was some being from outer space who was living in an alternate reality she just decided she was going to do this I know she we're told that she heard a voice a lot of serial killers say that they've heard voices is this is this new to anybody by the way a lot of really horrible people are actually quite crazy you know this this notion like you sit here you say well Hannibal Lecter had clearly you know I know he's a fictional character but he clearly had psychological issues so he shouldn't he shouldn't be I think it's really good I think you're PTSD is a really good example by the way and we shut down all the sorry club it just we shut down all the women you can't say a word about this veteran who killed his family because he had PTSD you can't say a word because you're a woman you don't know what it's like to be in combat would that fly as an argument I don't think so I think again to me and I just want it's my wife's argument it's not mine because to be honest as this case has progressed

29:28I spent most of my time looking at the fact that we have a broken legal system in my opinion that you can kill your children and you can argue that you shouldn't be responsible for it because of insanity and I was more focused on the insanity defense than the gender aspect of it and in fact when my wife started talking about the gender aspect I hadn't really thought about it very much but I do think that women who are advocating for Lindsay Clancy to be held completely without responsibility for these murders is actually are actually arguing that women because of their unique biochemistry are incapable of handling high stress high intense environments I would also point this out there are billions of women that have a more stressful child rearing environment than Lindsay Clancy did there first of all she was married she had a husband who had a high made a really good income her kids were well fed they were well taken care of

30:35many I mean legitimately billions of moms have raised children under incredibly more dress and stress than what Lindsay Clancy was exposed to so you're actually arguing for the people who are supporting her are arguing in favor of an incredibly privileged mother as these things go that she still was unable to be responsible for her own acts I just think you're basically arguing against women themselves and saying and this is my wife's argument that I'm now signing on to which I really hadn't spend much time on this is actually anti woman to argue that women can't be held accountable because if you can't be held accountable for killing your own three kids what can you be held accountable this is the origin of the term hysteria hysteria ancient Greek women unreasonable irrational cannot be held accountable that is where the term comes from obviously from a

31:39difference aside in a different time where you know the the female liberation movement was not the case play can I just remind it we got a VIP email I forget who it was from but he cited this case there's a case back in 1954 in Maine Constance Fisher 24 years old drowned her three children very similar case three children six four and 11 year 11 months old in the bathtub she left the note saying God told her to do it and that she was trying to save them from evil and then she tried to kill herself she was an unsuccessful in that she was charged with murder found not guilty by reason of insanity and a grand jury declined to indict after a hospital report she was committed to state hospital five years later she was released released to her husband who believed her same husband I might add stayed with her stayed by her side thought it wasn't really her fault anyone to guess what happened next little over 12 years after the first killings the husband came home and found he exact same scene three children all murdered by the woman same thing guess what happened

32:43they locked her up for the rest of her life she killed how could you say someone is safe to be in society after they murder three of their own children tell me what that looks like what any of you left this woman be a nurse for your child in the hospital would any of you let her be a nanny in your home or an employee in your office would you want her as a next door neighbor bringing cookies over and interacting with your kids be honest about that I know I wouldn't I also think this is important a lot of women are saying and I'm gonna take a couple of your calls a lot of women are calling in and saying I had postpartum depression I know with this but you didn't kill your kids yeah this is actually this is huge disconnect with this too this is actually press they don't go out murder 20 people in a school shooting this is actually super important people can have bad thoughts you can sometimes think about doing bad things but there is a big difference between thinking about doing bad things and actually do you know what I mean doing them that's the whole point of the law so women's empathy being utilized here for women out there who say well my daughter had postpartum depression or the caller the dad called in and said well my daughter had post your daughter didn't kill her kids there's a big difference between hey I thought about doing something really bad and I chose not to do it and actually doing it and Catherine and go on take take your time I think can speak directly to this

34:13Catherine thanks for calling hey thank you for listening I really appreciate the chance to talk to you what's your story my story is that my daughter in law experienced a very similar episode thankfully we were able to enter seed when she was having an episode of this postpartum psychosis which I would like you know one of the things I'd like to say is postpartum psychosis is immensely different than postpartum depression and she knows that but for the grace of God she would be in Lindsey clonty's shoes and so I guess what I just heard me about hearing you all talk about this yes she's responsible and there is no excuse for what she did but there is an explanation and that explanation is understanding and having compassion for those who have truly experienced postpartum psychosis

35:14but I appreciate your call but I don't have compassion for her at all I have compassion for the three kids that she murdered and for the husband who came home for the grandparents who no longer have grandchildren with all due respect I think when you're saying hey you should have compassion for the person who committed the crime just a question do you have compassion for serial rapist clay I really want you to understand the postpartum psychosis okay but a serial rapist can say I can't control myself because my brain is broken you're saying that I should give compassion to a woman who strangled her three kids with an exercise band I have a lot of compassion for a lot of people I have zero for her I think she should be dead okay okay we've heard from Catherine thank you Catherine you're not going to change either of our minds on it you're welcome to of course air her thoughts and we let her do so on the show

36:14Clay and I just on my PTSD example this is actually very interesting I'm doing some quick research on this so exactly what I described has happened people have to use this is an excuse yes let me give you some examples the marine veteran who had had had been diagnosed with extreme PTSD who shot and killed Chris Kyle of American sniper he said it wasn't you know it wasn't my fault he killed him I killed him at the range because I was you know having a flashback or whatever Texas jury rejected his defense sentenced him to life without parole Andrew Brennan Vietnam veteran rated 100% disabled by the VA for extreme PTSD shot a Georgia deputy in 1998 pleaded insanity based on having a combat flashback convicted executed executed in 2015 after appeals failed I mean go through a lot of these cases it is extremely hard and extremely rare to have PTSD as an affirmative defense clay to just get you in an essentially an insanity plea it is usually used as a mitigating factor in the crime for sentencing if at all

37:28and the only time it is applicable is if the person has such extreme PTSD that they have actual flashbacks to combat and this is proven before where they do not know where they are and clay keep in mind these individuals walked into the courtroom still in extreme psychological and I just would know why the PTSD thing is so interesting to me women have opinions and as they should they had opinions on these cases they were allowed to be on the jury they were allowed to be part of the defense in the prosecution what is the thing of I don't want to hear from men no that's not of the criminal justice system works even though women generally have not seen combat and certainly don't understand PTSD the way men who have seen combat look my take is pretty simple here if you kill kids you should either be executed or you should be in prison for the rest of your life I don't care what your justification for doing it is period and if we want to have a real constructive conversation going forward about how to avoid trials like this in the future what I have said is strict liability should exist for the killing of children we have a lot of state legislator's lot of members of the legislative system

38:42a lot of members of the legislature that are listening right now introduce bills that make the murder of children a strict liability offense so your mental state doesn't matter at all I don't care why she did it I care that she did it we have to get back to personal responsibility you can make all sorts of excuses under the sun for the bad things that happen we got to just hold bad acts and people who do them accountable period particularly when they involve children look I'm fired up by this weekend if you need to get away from the serious things in life and I totally understand why you need to do that I've got a game that I tell you to watch I want you to watch. Clemzin on the road at ls u it's the best game of the weekend. Clemzin plus 10 points is the play I think Climzin is going to keep this game close there's been all sorts of chaos surrounding ls u again serious things in life. If you want something not serious, you want to have a beer, you want to kick your

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40:47certainly not over because it's likely there'll be a retrial after the mistrial and clay. I guess it's try to send everybody off. Cut yourself some slack this weekend. Go have a good Labor Day weekend. Don't think about one of the darkest crime stories in recent memory. You know, this is got to let yourself go enjoy a good weekend. And we're going to come back next week a lot to talk about the midterms and other things. Clay, that's my version of some sunshine after a lot of darkness. I just said I'm going to watch college football all weekend. I'm headed out to a high school football game. But I do think that the sunshine I would bring is one man knew what was right on this jury and no matter how much he was berated, no matter how much he was attacked, he was willing to stand for truth. That matters. One person standing for truth matters for all of you out there. Stand for truth. Yeah, well, I was going to say, I think this guy might be a Clay and Buck